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The Preacher
Oct 10th 2008, 02:34 AM
With all the current denominations and sects we have of Christianity how do we deal with these scriptures?

Rom 16:17-18

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.



1 Cor 1:10-13

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Cor 3:1-5
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?


Here's the real dilemma of all those who claim to truly love Jesus,how many are concerned with fulfilling one of Jesus's last requests?

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


WOW! Maybe the world doesn't know that The Father has sent Jesus because we are divided into denominations and have falling into the trap the Apostle Paul foresaw:

Acts 20:28-31

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

( not only are they not concerned with the prayer of John 17 they actually DIVIDE that which Jesus bought with his own blood! WOE unto them):B

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.:cry:

Paul was warning the elders of Ephesus how and why division would occur.
It made him WEEP but we are happy to post little polls that determine which little sect we belong to. We have even made "non-denominational" a denomination! That's no surprise though because the Corinthians even had a divisive sect that claimed they were of "Christ" Paul's response was..Is Christ divided?:hmm:

Richard H
Oct 10th 2008, 03:40 AM
I don’t think we will ever join as one “denomination” with everyone following the same sort of service.
This is not to say that we will not one day abandon denomination when He returns.

I know what you are saying and I have thought a bout it – although not as much as you.

Perhaps we could have a unity day – a million saints march – to show the world that we agree on whom is our Lord and what he has done for us.
Not a prayer day for the nation – or even world peace, but a prayer day for the lost and for unity in the body.

That even with denominational differences, we are one in the Lord.
One body and He is our head.

Richard

Richard H
Oct 10th 2008, 03:55 AM
Well… a Million Saints March would just sound conceited to the world.
It would just be another one of those marches anyway…

How about Unity in Christ?

Naaaah… That won’t work either.

The Preacher
Oct 10th 2008, 04:21 AM
I don’t think we will ever join as one “denomination” with everyone following the same sort of service.
This is not to say that we will not one day abandon denomination when He returns.

What do you think he will say about our differences and disagreements when he returns that we can't seek in prayer to hear from him now? Could it be that the reason we see so many sects and denominations is that the leaders aren't really building God's kingdom but their own? I meet with Clayt Sonmore( one of the original founders of full gospel business man's) a few months back. He was William Branham's best friend before he died.( he had some interesting thing's to say about branham's doctrine but we won't go there in this item) He was also very close friends with Leonard Ravenhill. He told me that ravenhill separated from Rick Joyner( The final quest) and Mike Bickel( International house of prayer) because the whole kansas city group was getting into a "kingdom building " spirit that used man's methods and programs to build their own little fiefdoms in the name of Jesus. he said God would judge all that attempted to build his Kingdom useing man's methods. I wonder if this" kingdom building spirit" is isolated to Kansas city?

Richard H
Oct 10th 2008, 05:48 AM
The church I used to frequent with my Brother was one of those kingdoms.
There were sermons about polling percentages and filling the pews.
(they’re still in their building program – creating a whole campus – to “serve” the community)

I got tired of the errors coming from the pulpit. Things anyone familiar with the Bible should know.
Like: “only Jesus knows the day and the hour of His return.”
"Paul wrote the Book of Acts."
"Paul learned the gospel from the disciples before he began his ministry."

I left because of the private kingdom thing and the errors.
My Brother no longer goes either.

So, the kingdom building spirit is alive and well in Arizona too.

Actually, all 501(c)(3) Churches are government regulated organizations having to abide by the wishes of the government in order to maintain tax exempt status.
So much for: prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
I could give you a link, but you can Google it yourself. 501c3 churches

It’s a sad state of affairs and I know Jesus is not happy about it.
Denominational differences, 501c3, kingdom building by and for the flesh, and the gospel of prosperity are all a problem.

All I can do is pray.
I am glad that I am not forced to observe and practice according to man’s prescribed dogma.
At this point I see no reversal – returning to the early church.

A day is coming when the differences between true Christians will pale in the shadow of actual persecution.
Perhaps then, we’ll focus on He who unites us – rather than our divided house.

Richard

The Preacher
Oct 10th 2008, 07:56 AM
I got tired of the errors coming from the pulpit.

I can feel you. There is something inside every maturing believer that longs to function in ministry to others. It is how the body of Christ was intended to function. Sadly what happens in most meeting is that the only member that functions is the pastor with, like you said, a very shallow and superficial message. Perhaps the choir or worship team functions to some degree and if you are very lucky the pastor might even let you share a five minute testimony!
This is a far cry from :

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, EVERY ONE of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

We are told here what the purpose of the five ministry is:

Eph 4:11-15

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 FOR the perfecting of the saints, FOR the work of the ministry, FOR the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 TILL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

The FORs clearly describe that ministry is supposed to mature the saints and edify the body. The TILL ,which by the way means the end of one thing and the begining of another describes the destination they are required to take us to. Sadly,many find it in their best interest to keep you in immaturity so you will need them and all they want from you is your tithe check. THIS is the kingdom building spirit.
I'm glad you are getting stir crazy listening to the same old sermons..it's a healthy sign that growth is taking place. But watch out..when you grow more mature than your pastor expect the persecution to start rolling in!:o

It is events and situations like these that keep us in division. I heard a man from China who we called "China George" He was a pastor and the communists locked him away for thirty years as they did to all the pastors who wouldn't conform to the state. He said it was the best thing that could ever have happened to the church because then EVERY member began to function and minister. It was the power tripping pastors that were keeping them back.Once they were removed revival took place. :pp

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 09:17 AM
I don’t think we will ever join as one “denomination” with everyone following the same sort of service.
This is not to say that we will not one day abandon denomination when He returns.

I know what you are saying and I have thought a bout it – although not as much as you.

Perhaps we could have a unity day – a million saints march – to show the world that we agree on whom is our Lord and what he has done for us.
Not a prayer day for the nation – or even world peace, but a prayer day for the lost and for unity in the body.

That even with denominational differences, we are one in the Lord.
One body and He is our head.

Richard

I understand that we should be one in the Lord, but we know that is not the case, we are not of one mind, we do not speak the same thing. Paul therefore asks this question;

1 Cor 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Is ChrIst divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Mark Heard sang a song entiltled "Schitzophrenia" Christ does not have that problem.

Jn 10:30 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=30) I and my Father are one.
Jn 17:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

We endevour to do what Christ has taught/commanded but is it worth it if we cannot do that which makes us one with God by being one with each other?

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Oct 10th 2008, 09:26 AM
We endevour to do what Christ has taught/commanded but is it worth it if we cannot do that which makes us one with God by being one with each other?

Firstfruits Sure. Focus on pleasing God and let the rest of fall where it may. Babylon is alive and well but it's end will come. todd

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 10:18 AM
Sure. Focus on pleasing God and let the rest of fall where it may. Babylon is alive and well but it's end will come. todd


Paul tells us that if there is division it means we are still carnal.

1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be No divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

How can we therefore focus on pleasing God when our division causes us to be enemies with God?

Rom 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

What ever happened to the new man?

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 10th 2008, 10:32 AM
Moving this to Contro, where Richard H wisely suggested it should be!

9Marksfan
Oct 10th 2008, 10:40 AM
What do you think he will say about our differences and disagreements when he returns that we can't seek in prayer to hear from him now? Could it be that the reason we see so many sects and denominations is that the leaders aren't really building God's kingdom but their own? I meet with Clayt Sonmore( one of the original founders of full gospel business man's) a few months back. He was William Branham's best friend before he died.( he had some interesting thing's to say about branham's doctrine but we won't go there in this item) He was also very close friends with Leonard Ravenhill. He told me that ravenhill separated from Rick Joyner( The final quest) and Mike Bickel( International house of prayer) because the whole kansas city group was getting into a "kingdom building " spirit that used man's methods and programs to build their own little fiefdoms in the name of Jesus. he said God would judge all that attempted to build his Kingdom useing man's methods. I wonder if this" kingdom building spirit" is isolated to Kansas city?
[/font]

It certainly isn't! But this raises an important point - do you agree that it's often RIGHT for godly men like Leonard ravenhill to leave man-based groups or denominations? And that that is what happened at the Reformation and is the reason for MANY splits in churches (though certainly not all)? There CANNOT be unity in those situations where false doctrine is propagated and/or the ideas of men take precedence over the word of God - what is a godly man or woman to do in such circumstances but leave?!?

9Marksfan
Oct 10th 2008, 10:42 AM
Paul tells us that if there is division it means we are still carnal.

1 Cor 1:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be No divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

How can we therefore focus on pleasing God when our division causes us to be enemies with God?

Rom 8:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

What ever happened to the new man?

Firstfruits

Not all division is carnal:-

For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognised among you. 1 Cor 11:19 NKJV

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 10:45 AM
Moving this to Contro, where Richard H wisely suggested it should be!

Can you please explain why that which we should all strive for according to the following is controversial?

Phil 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phil 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Phil 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

1 Pet 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Oct 10th 2008, 11:03 AM
What ever happened to the new man?

Firstfruits They're out there. Be a fruit inspector and look for believers/communities that have proven track records of bearing positive results. todd

9Marksfan
Oct 10th 2008, 11:10 AM
Can you please explain why that which we should all strive for according to the following is controversial?

Phil 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Phil 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Phil 2:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

1 Pet 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Firstfruits

The unity you are speaking of is biblical unity and should indeed be pursued by all Christians. However, when we start applying this to the existence of denominations, then ecumenism comes in as the solution - and that IS controversial, because it so often advocates a lowest common denominator approach and is believed by many to be the aim of Antichrist - the creation of One Church as part of One Religion (syncretism) in the end times, which will persecute the true church.

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 11:21 AM
Not all division is carnal:-

For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognised among you. 1 Cor 11:19 NKJV

If you look at the full text, division in the church was was approved.

1 Cor 11:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1 Cor 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

1 Cor 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Is ChrIst divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Is christ divided, or is it us that cause division?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 11:29 AM
The unity you are speaking of is biblical unity and should indeed be pursued by all Christians. However, when we start applying this to the existence of denominations, then ecumenism comes in as the solution - and that IS controversial, because it so often advocates a lowest common denominator approach and is believed by many to be the aim of Antichrist - the creation of One Church as part of One Religion (syncretism) in the end times, which will persecute the true church.

But is it not the Biblical unity that we should be concerned with?

Eph 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) One Lord, One faith, One baptism,

1 Cor 12:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

If we are divided how then can we say we are one body in Christ?

Christ is not divided.

Firstfruits

valleybldr
Oct 10th 2008, 12:10 PM
and that IS controversial, because it so often advocates a lowest common denominator approach and is believed by many to be the aim of Antichrist - the creation of One Church as part of One Religion (syncretism) in the end times, which will persecute the true church. Maybe it's a way insecure leaders try to keep "their" flocks in line (and the $$ following them)? todd

9Marksfan
Oct 10th 2008, 12:14 PM
But is it not the Biblical unity that we should be concerned with?

Eph 4:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) One Lord, One faith, One baptism,

1 Cor 12:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

If we are divided how then can we say we are one body in Christ?

Christ is not divided.

Firstfruits

Yes - but I know the background to this thread starting and it is to do with the existence of denominations per se being sinful - even "heretical". My understanding of that is that the OP means either (a) we should not attend any church that is part of any denomination (for most people, that would rule out 100% of churches in their locale!); and/or (b) we should just have one worldwide organisational church - that is the aim of the World Council of Churches, which many see as the Beast.

9Marksfan
Oct 10th 2008, 12:18 PM
If you look at the full text, division in the church was was approved.

Did you mean "was not approved"?


1 Cor 11:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1 Cor 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Yes, divisions are usually wrong - but Paul says they show who is approved - so not everyone is wrong when there is a division.


1 Cor 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Is ChrIst divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Is christ divided, or is it us that cause division?

Firstfruits

But when division is caused, who is right? Or is everyone wrong? If so, what should be done when someone is divisive? Is there any place for upholding truth and moral integrity?

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 01:01 PM
Did you mean "was not approved"?

[/color]

Yes, divisions are usually wrong - but Paul says they show who is approved - so not everyone is wrong when there is a division.



But when division is caused, who is right? Or is everyone wrong? If so, what should be done when someone is divisive? Is there any place for upholding truth and moral integrity?

Yes I meant not approved, thanks.

We have a commandment regarding those that cause divisions.

Rom 16:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Firstfruits

Toymom
Oct 10th 2008, 01:28 PM
The Bible says that we will all come to the oneness of the faith - not to the oneness of the doctrines or practices.

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 01:57 PM
The Bible says that we will all come to the oneness of the faith - not to the oneness of the doctrines or practices.

Is that not the Gospel that he spoke of, with regards to the following?

Gal 1:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Firstfruits

mcgyver
Oct 10th 2008, 02:45 PM
Simple question: Define "Denomination".

9Marksfan
Oct 10th 2008, 05:13 PM
Yes I meant not approved, thanks.

We have a commandment regarding those that cause divisions.

Rom 16:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Firstfruits

Exactly - and if several in a church are divisive, how do you avoid them? You leave and set up a new church! That's generally how denominations start! Sometimes it's right, often it's wrong.....

TrustingFollower
Oct 10th 2008, 05:53 PM
Matthew 7

13 ¶"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7

21 ¶"Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,´ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?´
23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.´

I think the two passages I listed above refer to this division in a way. Many claim to be doing the work of the Father, but really are wolves devouring the sheep. further more I do think one day their will be unity of the true believers. This will only be possible through the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. Christ is going to return for his bride and those on the narrow road will find the Lord and be invited into the wedding banquet. I think a great many people will be surprised not only for being excluded, but also by some that will be included.

Firstfruits
Oct 10th 2008, 06:43 PM
Exactly - and if seeral in a church are divisive, how do you avoid them? You leave and set up a new church! That's generally how denominations start! Sometimes it's right, often it's wrong.....

Yes we have the option to leave, however the following gives us another option before having to leave.

Tit 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I know the following is not exactly the same situation but it still applies.

Mt 18:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Firstfruits

Butch5
Oct 10th 2008, 09:48 PM
We don't have unity because we have pride. Go on any forum where someone is posting an incorrect understanding of Scripture and see how much unity you have. There are people who have no clue what the are talking about, cannot back their position with Scripture, yet the will argue for all their worth and tell you you are wrong.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 10th 2008, 09:57 PM
Matthew 7

13 ¶"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matthew 7

21 ¶"Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,´ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?´
23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.´

I think the two passages I listed above refer to this division in a way. Many claim to be doing the work of the Father, but really are wolves devouring the sheep. further more I do think one day their will be unity of the true believers. This will only be possible through the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. Christ is going to return for his bride and those on the narrow road will find the Lord and be invited into the wedding banquet. I think a great many people will be surprised not only for being excluded, but also by some that will be included.


Well Said.. thank you.....

Richard H
Oct 10th 2008, 10:04 PM
The reformers wanted to do just that – reform the mother church. Martin Luther had no intention of starting the Lutherans.

Today’s denominations have arisen because people catch a portion of the truth (even a distortion of the truth) and hold to it - to the exclusion of other portions of the truth.
‘Not to say that their portion isn’t correct, but it’s only a portion.

Some insist on being “right” no matter what – deeming everyone else doomed to hell.
Others go the other way and accept any doctrine that has a Christian label.

Our need to put things in “separate boxes with labels” has resulted in hundreds of divisions.
Personally, I have not found any label I want to bear other than Christian.
I even dislike “Non-Denominational”, because people say: “Oh! ‘One of those!”
Whoever “those” are?!!!

Sure the world sees a squabbling bunch of factions because of this.

The problem with the church is even larger than just our apparent lack of unity.

There is “kingdom building” (as mentioned), pew (coffer) filling instead of actual conversions, keeping one’s flock in line by keeping them on a milk diet (as mentioned), and sometimes even Biblical ignorance on the part of the shepherd in charge.

Speaking of stupidity:
I’ve even seen a giant “Eye of Horus” in stained glass behind a preacher on TV.I think it was out of Chicago.
OK, perhaps God’ isn’t so much concerned about symbols, but what does this say about one’s awareness?

I understand that pastors and ministers can subscribe to prewritten sermons.
Perhaps as a backup in case they are caught unprepared, but in many cases - so they can concentrate on the business at hand – keeping the organization going and growing.
There are bills to be paid and meetings to go to – even building plans to iron out.

This sort of attitude to ministry is short sighted and lazy and it certainly takes the Holy Spirit out of the picture.
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Rom 8:14

It seems to me that one thing churches do not do is talk with individuals to see if they are believers or not.
We think that everyone in the pews is saved, but a shepherd is supposed to know the condition of his flock.
Know well the condition of your flocks, And pay attention to your herds; Pro 27:23

You’re correct about the functions of the body, Preacher.
Some churches even do seek to function with MEMBER participation as should be.

I used to go to a Spirit led Presbyterian church (Imagine that!) which did so.
Being Presbyterian, they were structured enough to function through delegation.
However, they tried to be sensitive to the Spirit – to continually re-align their plans to God’s will.
In a sense, they sought change rather then stagnation.

Other Churches build empires in the flesh through “strategies” and growth models.

This may all seem like criticism, and it is.
However, before change can be addressed, it may help to identify the problems.
To look at the whole situation - perhaps as an outsider – perhaps as Jesus would see it – perhaps as Scripture addresses it.

So what would Jesus say about things as they exist now?

What will He say to SOME of the leaders?
I think it might be something like this: “depart from me…

So I ask: Are these problems we can address to the larger church?
Can unity be promoted without being Ecumenical? (The RC is a separate issue)
Can we make an effort to reach those who sit in pews out of familiarity or social “responsibility”?
Can we get ministers to begin feeding flocks with more than milk? (some of which, is barely milk)
Can we get churches to function in the Spirit and not in the flesh?
Can we get churches to return to the Gospel and stop tickling ears?
Must all these things be as they are, until the sickle is put to harvest?
Can we make a difference (with prayer) or is prayer alone the only option?

Richard

Richard H
Oct 11th 2008, 04:35 AM
Sorry.
Please overlook my rant and go back to the OP. :blush:

Richard

9Marksfan
Oct 11th 2008, 03:10 PM
Yes we have the option to leave, however the following gives us another option before having to leave.

Tit 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=56&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I know the following is not exactly the same situation but it still applies.

Mt 18:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Firstfruits

Amen - that IS the right approach - but frequently false doctrine goes unchecked and reaches the leadership of a church - it makes it impossible to excommunicate them because of their power and numbers - and often influence over the ordinary members (this could be an entire denomination as well as an individual congregation) - in those circumstances, secession is the only legitimate option, imho.

9Marksfan
Oct 11th 2008, 03:17 PM
Sorry.
Please overlook my rant and go back to the OP. :blush:

Richard

On the contrary, I think you raise some really important issues that DO tie in with the OP. There ARE those in the US (at least) that are seeking to foster a far greater evangelical unity -across a large number of different denominations - here's a link to their website - you'll see that they deal with some of the very issues you raise:-

www.thegospelcoalition.org (http://www.thegospelcoalition.org)

Richard H
Oct 11th 2008, 03:23 PM
On the contrary, I think you raise some really important issues that DO tie in with the OP. There ARE those in the US (at least) that are seeking to foster a far greater evangelical unity -across a large number of different denominations - here's a link to their website - you'll see that they deal with some of the very issues you raise:-

www.thegospelcoalition.org (http://www.thegospelcoalition.org)
Thanks Mark.
I just came in from the patio - after contemplating deleting my rant - having sufficiently derailed the OP.
Richard

Checkin' out the link now. :)

RoadWarrior
Oct 11th 2008, 03:37 PM
...
So I ask: Are these problems we can address to the larger church?
Can unity be promoted without being Ecumenical? (The RC is a separate issue)
Can we make an effort to reach those who sit in pews out of familiarity or social “responsibility”?
Can we get ministers to begin feeding flocks with more than milk? (some of which, is barely milk)
Can we get churches to function in the Spirit and not in the flesh?
Can we get churches to return to the Gospel and stop tickling ears?
Must all these things be as they are, until the sickle is put to harvest?
Can we make a difference (with prayer) or is prayer alone the only option?

Richard

IMO, the unity of the faith will never come from us trying to be like each other, or trying to get people to follow my way. The only way we will ever be united is when we are each following hard after Jesus.

I say "Bingo!" on the prayer question.

As to the rest, a relative of mine taught me a valuable truth some years ago. "How you spend your money is a vote for that product to keep being made, or that service continue as it is, .. Etc." So with church. Many of us have voted with our feet and tramped around from church to church seeking to find one that preaches the whole Bible, the Truth, the meat together with the milk so that all are fed.

Thus, we end up together, here in cyberspace. Is this church? Some will say no. But if we are gathered here together for the purpose of sharing our love and worship of God, then I think we are "being the Church."

You can see from the threads here, that many are still having trouble with milk, but are trying to digest meat. Some subjects go round and round and round, and never reach resolution.

Definition of insanity: Keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Martin Luther did not want people to call themselves after himself. "Who am I," he said, "poor bag of worms that I am!" He wanted to point people to Jesus. He wanted us to be Christians, not Lutherans.

Love your thought processes, Richard. Let us know if you have some ideas on how to handle these problems ... using prayer, of course!

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 12:47 AM
Hey!
The Gospel Coalition looks like a real good thing. Thanks for the link, 9MarksFan.

There is more info besides the videos.
Of course, it is geared for ministers – who else?!!!

They want to focus on 2 Timothy (to start with) to return to a Pauline (right word?) approach.
This IS good news! :)

Maybe even someone could sort of announce it, somewhere on this board (besides Contro) - so that sheppards here - would be aware of it.

Richard

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 12:54 AM
...
Thus, we end up together, here in cyberspace. Is this church? Some will say no. But if we are gathered here together for the purpose of sharing our love and worship of God, then I think we are "being the Church."

...
Yes, RoadWarrior. We are the church - at least a portion of the body.
Wherever (even in cyberspace) two or more of us are gathered, He's with us.
That's so cool when you think about it.

Richard

Definition of insanity: Keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. LOL Sad but true.

Firstfruits
Oct 12th 2008, 10:06 AM
Yes, RoadWarrior. We are the church - at least a portion of the body.
Wherever (even in cyberspace) two or more of us are gathered, He's with us.
That's so cool when you think about it.

Richard

Definition of insanity: Keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. LOL Sad but true.

I guess you could say that by being here as often as we can be that we are at church more than being in a physical buliding, not that this is a replacement but it IMO is no less worth gathering here.

God bless you

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 11:25 AM
I guess you could say that by being here as often as we can be that we are at church more than being in a physical buliding, not that this is a replacement but it IMO is no less worth gathering here.

God bless you

Firstfruits

Change the wording a little bit, and I agree with you. We are not "at" church, we are "being" the Church, or being the Body. The truth is, we are here online with each other for much more time than most of us spend at our respective places of worship.

Also, we have the potential to have meaningful relationships with each other on a different level than many of us have at the church buildings. The downside is that we can't see each other's faces (well you can see mine) and we can't meet for coffee or for lunch. If you are ill, I can't stop by with chicken soup to help you feel better. Or visit you in the hospital.

But aside from those difficulties, we have the opportunity in this message board to deeply affect one another's lives. Hurtful words here are just as painful, and encouraging words are just as strengthening, as they would be in person. In some sense, there is a greater value here, because we can take time to respond to a given message. Taking time to think and pray can help us give better responses to each other.

Jesus said where two or three are gathered together in His name, He would be with them. The question then is this:

Are we gathered in His name? By calling ourselves Christian, we are using His name. But are we doing these things in a way that honors Him? Is He pleased with us? It is definitely something to think about!

Firstfruits
Oct 12th 2008, 11:43 AM
Change the wording a little bit, and I agree with you. We are not "at" church, we are "being" the Church, or being the Body. The truth is, we are here online with each other for much more time than most of us spend at our respective places of worship.

Also, we have the potential to have meaningful relationships with each other on a different level than many of us have at the church buildings. The downside is that we can't see each other's faces (well you can see mine) and we can't meet for coffee or for lunch. If you are ill, I can't stop by with chicken soup to help you feel better. Or visit you in the hospital.

But aside from those difficulties, we have the opportunity in this message board to deeply affect one another's lives. Hurtful words here are just as painful, and encouraging words are just as strengthening, as they would be in person. In some sense, there is a greater value here, because we can take time to respond to a given message. Taking time to think and pray can help us give better responses to each other.

Jesus said where two or three are gathered together in His name, He would be with them. The question then is this:

Are we gathered in His name? By calling ourselves Christian, we are using His name. But are we doing these things in a way that honors Him? Is He pleased with us? It is definitely something to think about!

Amen to that!!!!

God bless you.

Firstfruits

tt1106
Oct 12th 2008, 11:59 AM
Great topic.
I haven't read all the posts, so I am not sure if this has been said, but I doubt that Paul was talking about the same doctrinal differences that I consider minor compared to the Differences of Doctrine that may have resulted from preaching the Gospel in Countries where they were polytheistic.
Christian Doctrine is marked by small differences in Christian theory, like whether someone needs to be baptised.....whether the communion host actually hosts the Lord's spirit etc.
I don't consider those as deal breakers. God knows the heart and as long as you truly repent, turn from sin and make disciples of all nations.
The rest is pretty insignificant.
I am speaking only of the small doctrinal differences we sometimes get hung up on, not on the major heresies in Christian churches today that are called christian but are not speaking on living like Christ and the prosperity gospel.
I think the major failing of the church today (many but not all) is abandoning he Great Commission.
I think it's great that we have a place where we can discuss these things.
-Blessings all
-Todd.

Teke
Oct 12th 2008, 10:47 PM
The reformers wanted to do just that – reform the mother church. Martin Luther had no intention of starting the Lutherans.

Today’s denominations have arisen because people catch a portion of the truth (even a distortion of the truth) and hold to it - to the exclusion of other portions of the truth.
‘Not to say that their portion isn’t correct, but it’s only a portion.


I agree.
AKA half truths.

I don't have those problems anymore. I found the church, and it hasn't changed any of the apostolic teachings. The church answered all my questions in harmony with scripture and it is steered in a quite orderly fashion. This is not to boast that my church is perfect, after all we are all mere mortals still, and diverse as our cultures are.

I must admit that when I was in denominational confusion, they all seemed to miss the point that the Body is foremost "for" us. Not for us to give away, in a manner of speaking. More to keep us for Him.

It's my observation that a unity of faith can be achieved with some practical guidelines agreed upon by all, counsel and dignity for each others opinions.

These are some good questions you've asked. I'd like to comment on some.


So I ask: Are these problems we can address to the larger church?

By "larger church" do you mean as a whole?


Can unity be promoted without being Ecumenical? (The RC is a separate issue)

Without ecumenical agreement what would all agree to?


Can we make an effort to reach those who sit in pews out of familiarity or social “responsibility”?

My priest and I talked about this today. People don't like to change their comfort zone.


Can we get ministers to begin feeding flocks with more than milk? (some of which, is barely milk)

How about just focusing on Christ and scripture for starters.



Can we make a difference (with prayer) or is prayer alone the only option?

Richard

The church is to be a "house of prayer", isn't that the least we can do.
:)

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 11:41 PM
Hi Teke, :)

(Bolding to make it easier to read)
<snip>
I must admit that when I was in denominational confusion, they all seemed to miss the point that the Body is foremost "for" us. Not for us to give away, in a manner of speaking. More to keep us for Him.

It's my observation that a unity of faith can be achieved with some practical guidelines agreed upon by all, counsel and dignity for each others opinions.
That's what we need and and also a public show of unity.
But not something hokey.
And not just another march on Washington or some such as the world would do.

These are some good questions you've asked. I'd like to comment on some.
TY

By "larger church" do you mean as a whole?
Yes. Not just America - but perhaps everywhere.

Without ecumenical agreement what would all agree to?
The gospel I suppose -as it is in Scripture.
I mean it should not involve Marianism or issues about statues.
I just don't see that stuff in Scripture.

My priest and I talked about this today.
Hey! That's great!
People don't like to change their comfort zone.
No they don't. And some are good at faking it.

How about just focusing on Christ and scripture for starters.
OK :) LOL


The church is to be a "house of prayer", isn't that the least we can do.:)
Yes. Indeed!

Richard

Teke
Oct 13th 2008, 01:13 AM
Hi Teke, :)

(Bolding to make it easier to read)
<snip>
I must admit that when I was in denominational confusion, they all seemed to miss the point that the Body is foremost "for" us. Not for us to give away, in a manner of speaking. More to keep us for Him.

It's my observation that a unity of faith can be achieved with some practical guidelines agreed upon by all, counsel and dignity for each others opinions.
That's what we need and and also a public show of unity.


That is what is known as an ecumenical council. ;)


The gospel I suppose -as it is in Scripture.
I mean it should not involve Marianism or issues about statues.
I just don't see that stuff in Scripture.

Didn't Christianity already have ecumenical councils which agreed on defining the Trinity and Jesus Christs' divinity.

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 06:26 AM
That is what is known as an ecumenical council. ;)



Didn't Christianity already have ecumenical councils which agreed on defining the Trinity and Jesus Christs' divinity.
I'm aware of ecumenical councils, but just barely.
And that's sort of the problem.

Clergy has meetings and decides on "points of unity".
It’s all very orderly and official.

That's all good, but the world is not aware of this at all.

If you walk up to most Christians and ask them what religion they are, you will get answers like “Baptist”, or “Lutheran”, or “Methodist”.
Very few would answer, “Christian”.

And that’s what the world sees. Perhaps we shouldn’t care what the world thinks, because we’re not of the world.
On the other hand, what does it say about our love for one-another? And what sort of witness is it?

I’d like to see an actual show of unity.
‘A social statement - which makes the world notice that the church is here and actual Christians exist.
‘A statement on a larger scale than Woodstock.
Once the world sees that we are actually one body, they may have to take another look at who Jesus is.

I suppose it’s just wishful thinking, because - like you said: People don't like to change their comfort zone.

Richard

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 09:41 AM
Perhaps these ecumenical councils could establish a “Body of Christ day”, when all churches would focus sermons and activities on recognizing the larger body of which we are all a part?

‘How we function as a whole with the faith and grace that God would have us exhibit - as we go about our Father’s “business” - showing love for each other and our fellow human beings.

I guess the structure for this is mostly in place - an ecumenical council.
It may not be too far out of people's comfort zones.

‘Just thinking about it…
______________‘Just thinking about it…

Firstfruits
Oct 13th 2008, 10:05 AM
Perhaps these ecumenical councils could establish a “Body of Christ day”, when all churches would focus sermons and activities on recognizing the larger body of which we are all a part?

‘How we function as a whole with the faith and grace that God would have us exhibit - as we go about our Father’s “business” - showing love for each other and our fellow human beings.

I guess the structure for this is mostly in place - an ecumenical council.
It may not be too far out of people's comfort zones.

‘Just thinking about it…
______________‘Just thinking about it…

With all that has been said, does it not come down to searching the scriptures to check that what is being taught is according to the word of God?

Acts 17:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

1 Jn 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Firstfruits

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 02:28 PM
An "ecumenical council" was not what I had in mind initially.

But, I agree with Teke, people are too comfortable to move from their comfort zones.

It would never really make a difference anyway.
Some saints would notice it, but actually I think things will continue as they have.
Only Christ will make His bride one in the Spirit.

Richard

TrustingFollower
Oct 13th 2008, 03:03 PM
The words given to the prophet Haggai are still true to this day and the days to come. The latter day church will be more glorious than the former. Jesus set up the church we know today, but the Spirit of the Lord will build the last days with greater glory. This is the bride that Jesus will return for. There for through the Holy Spirit all true believers will find unity of the faith one day. There may still be many different denominations out there, but the true believers will have unity of the spirit and message of the gospel.

Haggai 2

5 `As for the promise which I made you when you came out of Egypt, My Spirit is abiding in your midst; do not fear!´
6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts, `Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land.
7 `I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,´ says the LORD of hosts.
8 `The silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,´ declares the LORD of hosts.
9 `The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former,´ says the LORD of hosts, `and in this place I will give peace,´ declares the LORD of hosts."

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 03:30 PM
The words given to the prophet Haggai are still true to this day and the days to come. The latter day church will be more glorious than the former. Jesus set up the church we know today, but the Spirit of the Lord will build the last days with greater glory. This is the bride that Jesus will return for. There for through the Holy Spirit all true believers will find unity of the faith one day. There may still be many different denominations out there, but the true believers will have unity of the spirit and message of the gospel.

Haggai 2

5 `As for the promise which I made you when you came out of Egypt, My Spirit is abiding in your midst; do not fear!´
6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts, `Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land.
7 `I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,´ says the LORD of hosts.
8 `The silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,´ declares the LORD of hosts.
9 `The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former,´ says the LORD of hosts, `and in this place I will give peace,´ declares the LORD of hosts."
I always thought that referred to the millennium. :hmm:

TrustingFollower
Oct 13th 2008, 05:16 PM
I always thought that referred to the millennium. :hmm:
Who is Christ going to claim as co-heirs when he reigns during the millennium?

Teke
Oct 13th 2008, 05:51 PM
I'm aware of ecumenical councils, but just barely.
And that's sort of the problem.

Well without them Christian dogma, which pertains to Christ, would not be established.


Clergy has meetings and decides on "points of unity".

The councils establish dogma which cannot be challenged by any of the faith. Without the first ecumenical counsels which consisted of a unified church, the divinity of Christ wouldn't have been established and could still be disputed among the faithful.


It’s all very orderly and official.

That's all good, but the world is not aware of this at all.

The whole world is not unaware of those councils. Christians who are not aware of them have not been taught by their church about them. Or they do not agree, or acknowledge, or understand them. And if they don't, then what do they believe.

The creed (Apostles and/or Nicene Creed) formed from the decisions of those councils is what all Christians are suppose to believe.
Without such a statement as the creed, how would anyone know what anyone believes. The church is to be orderly, not in a state of confusion, especially about what they believe in reference to Jesus Christ.


If you walk up to most Christians and ask them what religion they are, you will get answers like “Baptist”, or “Lutheran”, or “Methodist”.
Very few would answer, “Christian”.

Well when Christians say they are, Baptist/Methodist/Lutheran etc Christians, they are referring to what statement of belief that group adheres to usually (most agree with the early councils in that they recognize the Trinity and are Trinitarian groups, though their doctrines do not go in depth on the subject). Still there are many who are in denominations and yet have no idea what their statement of belief is. They would be Christians who haven't examined their faith.
2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


And that’s what the world sees. Perhaps we shouldn’t care what the world thinks, because we’re not of the world.
On the other hand, what does it say about our love for one-another? And what sort of witness is it?

I’d like to see an actual show of unity.
‘A social statement - which makes the world notice that the church is here and actual Christians exist.
‘A statement on a larger scale than Woodstock.
Once the world sees that we are actually one body, they may have to take another look at who Jesus is.

I suppose it’s just wishful thinking, because - like you said: People don't like to change their comfort zone.

Richard

Christians are not of this world and what the world thinks doesn't matter more than what the church thinks. Christians are part of the church. It's not an individual matter being part of the Body of Christ, it's a corporal matter.

We died to our individuality at our baptism, when we were placed into (resurrected) the Body of Christ.

There are many in the US who do not know what their baptism really means. And therefore, do not take it very seriously as they should. They also resist the authority of the church/Lord Jesus Christ/God, which is suppose to hold the truth (the truth being apostolic teaching).
I myself had to come to grips with the reality and overcome such rebellion that I was raised in. My generation was a rebellious generation which centered on rebelling against authority (1960's 70's).
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

To be part of Christ and His Body is a matter of submission. You have to have faith in God or not. Can't be a fence sitter, the fence belongs to the devil because their is not to be division in the Body of Christ.
Jesus and the Apostles, our examples, all submitted themselves to councils (see in the 4 gospels and Acts).

The world sees us but doesn't know us.
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Teke
Oct 13th 2008, 05:53 PM
Who is Christ going to claim as co-heirs when he reigns during the millennium?

The "millennium" is the Messianic era of which we are in presently.

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 06:00 PM
Who is Christ going to claim as co-heirs when he reigns during the millennium?
We who have the promise of resurrection - the seal of the Holy Spirit.

I do not see "co-heirs" in Haggai 2.
You may be referring to "My Spirit is abiding in your midst" speaking of those led out of Egypt.

I've heard lots of sermons on the "The latter glory of this house" - all of them mistakenly saying this means the church in the last days.

TrustingFollower
Oct 13th 2008, 06:34 PM
The "millennium" is the Messianic era of which we are in presently.
You are in error with that statement. No one has been resurrected yet except Christ. The bible is very clear that the resurrection will happen befor Christ returns to rule and reign for the millennium.

TrustingFollower
Oct 13th 2008, 06:35 PM
We who have the promise of resurrection - the seal of the Holy Spirit.

I do not see "co-heirs" in Haggai 2.
You may be referring to "My Spirit is abiding in your midst" speaking of those led out of Egypt.

I've heard lots of sermons on the "The latter glory of this house" - all of them mistakenly saying this means the church in the last days.
Explain how it would be an error and not referring to the last days church.

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 07:11 PM
Explain how it would be an error and not referring to the last days church.
My first impulse is to ask “how it is”.
But, since you asked first :) – I think it’s a two fold prophecy.


It is speaking of the New Jerusalem during the millennium. The center of all the nations who will pay tribute and even come to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles or they shall have no rain.

The glory of the New Testament will be greater than that of the Old Testament. (pretty self explanatory – I hope)

Teke
Oct 13th 2008, 08:33 PM
You are in error with that statement.

The Messiah has come. He is God, Alpha and Omega. The Creator, the beginning, and the Eschaton, the end of all things.
There is nothing outside this truth.


No one has been resurrected yet except Christ.

I have died and been resurrected in Christ by baptism.
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?



The bible is very clear that the resurrection will happen befor Christ returns to rule and reign for the millennium.

The bible is clear that there is a final judgment.
Redemption is a matter of responsibility.
The final judgment is withheld for this end time, while all men are called to repent. Jesus Christ stands as our Mediator during this time, just as Aaron did in Numbers 16:48, between the living and the dead.


1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1Pe 4:7 ¶ But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

___________________________

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

___________________________

The teaching of the Apostles is declared by St Peter in Acts 10:42
And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
The second coming is judgment day.

TrustingFollower
Oct 14th 2008, 01:48 AM
It is speaking of the New Jerusalem during the millennium. The center of all the nations who will pay tribute and even come to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles or they shall have no rain.
You are aware that the new Jerusalem doesn't come until after the millennium reign of Christ. Look at Revelations 21 for reference. Secondly where are you getting this all nations will pay tribute and come to the feast of Tabernacles and the no rain thing. Please give me some scripture references to back up your statement.


The glory of the New Testament will be greater than that of the Old Testament. (pretty self explanatory – I hope)

You are going to have to show me where it says this in the bible too. The old testament and the new testament point us to the savior. Both have fulfilled prophecy and unfulfilled prophecy. They both have the same intent in their teaching, that is that we can not save ourselves. The old testament pointed people to the coming messiah where as the new testament points people back to the messiah, but in both cases it points to Jesus. One is not more glorious than the other. What is more glorious is the coming resurrection and the return of our Lord.

TrustingFollower
Oct 14th 2008, 02:31 AM
The Messiah has come. He is God, Alpha and Omega. The Creator, the beginning, and the Eschaton, the end of all things.
There is nothing outside this truth.
Yes the Messiah has come and he will come again. see Revelation 19:11- 20:6, 1 Corinthians 15



I have died and been resurrected in Christ by baptism. So have I, but we have this by faith now. We will one day see the glory of the resurrection, that is the hope of the gospel.


Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Good verse, but lets look at it in context.

John 11

24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

Here Jesus is teaching us that he has power over death. If we believe in him we shall have everlasting life. Lazarus' body was dead, but he was not dead spiritually. Jesus raised him from being dead, but Lazarus wasn't resurrected at this point. He still died again one day. When the resurrection happens we will no longer die.


The bible is clear that there is a final judgment.
Redemption is a matter of responsibility.
Yep in fact there are two judgments. The first resurrection of the saints and believers when Christ returns and one for the non believers after the millennium reign. Reference Revelation 20, 1 Corinthian 15


The final judgment is withheld for this end time, while all men are called to repent. Jesus Christ stands as our Mediator during this time, just as Aaron did in Numbers 16:48, between the living and the dead.


1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1Pe 4:7 ¶ But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

___________________________

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

___________________________

The teaching of the Apostles is declared by St Peter in Acts 10:42
And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
The second coming is judgment day.
See my answer above in this post about the judgment.
Yes we are all called to repent and believe in Jesus and we shall have eternal life. We have that eternal life now by faith in him. He is our righteousness now. When all things take place we will be given a white robe of righteousness of our own, but until then we go on faith in Christ.

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 04:20 AM
You are aware that the new Jerusalem doesn't come until after the millennium reign of Christ. Look at Revelations 21 for reference. Secondly where are you getting this all nations will pay tribute and come to the feast of Tabernacles and the no rain thing. Please give me some scripture references to back up your statement.
Hi TF,
You’re right.
I was wrong about the timing for the New Jerusalem. I was thinking of the Millennium.

Here’s the Scripture concerning the nations going up for the Feast of Tabernacles:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:13-18


You are going to have to show me where it says this in the bible too. The old testament and the new testament point us to the savior. Both have fulfilled prophecy and unfulfilled prophecy. They both have the same intent in their teaching, that is that we can not save ourselves. The old testament pointed people to the coming messiah where as the new testament points people back to the messiah, but in both cases it points to Jesus. One is not more glorious than the other. What is more glorious is the coming resurrection and the return of our Lord.

I really didn’t think I’d need Scripture to “prove” that the New Covenant is better than the old.
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:6

I liked your pointing to the resurrection even better.
In any case, this 2nd part of the two-fold is just a parallel.

I still don’t see the last days church.

Richard

Firstfruits
Oct 14th 2008, 10:42 AM
You are aware that the new Jerusalem doesn't come until after the millennium reign of Christ. Look at Revelations 21 for reference. Secondly where are you getting this all nations will pay tribute and come to the feast of Tabernacles and the no rain thing. Please give me some scripture references to back up your statement.


You are going to have to show me where it says this in the bible too. The old testament and the new testament point us to the savior. Both have fulfilled prophecy and unfulfilled prophecy. They both have the same intent in their teaching, that is that we can not save ourselves. The old testament pointed people to the coming messiah where as the new testament points people back to the messiah, but in both cases it points to Jesus. One is not more glorious than the other. What is more glorious is the coming resurrection and the return of our Lord.

With regards to what you say here, I hope the following scriptures will be helpful.

You are going to have to show me where it says this in the bible too. The old testament and the new testament point us to the savior. Both have fulfilled prophecy and unfulfilled prophecy. They both have the same intent in their teaching, that is that we can not save ourselves. The old testament pointed people to the coming messiah where as the new testament points people back to the messiah, but in both cases it points to Jesus. One is not more glorious than the other. What is more glorious is the coming resurrection and the return of our Lord.

2 Cor 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2 Cor 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

2 Cor 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Heb 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

mcgyver
Oct 14th 2008, 01:21 PM
I'd like to get back to denominations for a moment if I may, in reference to the Unity of the Faith.

I may be a dissenting voice here...and as such when I end up on the bottom of the "dog pile"...just be gentle :lol:

I would submit as food for thought, that denominations (as we know them today) are not necessarily a bad thing because:

1. There is a certain doctrinal integrity within each denominational affiliation that serves to keep people from "doing what is right in their own eyes" :rolleyes:

2. Different denominations serve IMO to provide certain "checks and balances" within the body of Christ...It causes us to (certainly) debate issues, discuss things, and ultimately remain true to the cause of Christ. Remember that at one time in history that there was only "one denomination"...the RCC.

3. They provide a place for like minded-believers to worship together. Even "non-denominational" churches are a denomination within themselves; all subscribing to certain tenents and confessions of faith (as it were), and maintaining a doctrinal integrity within the fellowship.

4. They, for the most part, keep grievous error from running rampant. I'm not talking about such secondary issues as speaking in tongues, the rapture, or whether security is eternal or not...I'm talking about such things as "indulgences", "works-based salvation", the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the work of the cross etc.

I think we tend to (too many times) focus not on the things we have in common as Christians, but rather the differences we have...but that's not a denominational problem...that's a human heart condition problem...;)

JMO

Firstfruits
Oct 14th 2008, 02:38 PM
I'd like to get back to denominations for a moment if I may, in reference to the Unity of the Faith.

I may be a dissenting voice here...and as such when I end up on the bottom of the "dog pile"...just be gentle :lol:

I would submit as food for thought, that denominations (as we know them today) are not necessarily a bad thing because:

1. There is a certain doctrinal integrity within each denominational affiliation that serves to keep people from "doing what is right in their own eyes" :rolleyes:

2. Different denominations serve IMO to provide certain "checks and balances" within the body of Christ...It causes us to (certainly) debate issues, discuss things, and ultimately remain true to the cause of Christ. Remember that at one time in history that there was only "one denomination"...the RCC.

3. They provide a place for like minded-believers to worship together. Even "non-denominational" churches are a denomination within themselves; all subscribing to certain tenents and confessions of faith (as it were), and maintaining a doctrinal integrity within the fellowship.

4. They, for the most part, keep grievous error from running rampant. I'm not talking about such secondary issues as speaking in tongues, the rapture, or whether security is eternal or not...I'm talking about such things as "indulgences", "works-based salvation", the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the work of the cross etc.

I think we tend to (too many times) focus not on the things we have in common as Christians, but rather the differences we have...but that's not a denominational problem...that's a human heart condition problem...;)

JMO

We therefore have the resposibility of checking what is being taught in order not to be led astray, like the blind leading the blind.

1 Jn 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

God bless

Firstfruits

Teke
Oct 14th 2008, 05:55 PM
Yes the Messiah has come and he will come again. see Revelation 19:11- 20:6, 1 Corinthians 15


So have I, but we have this by faith now. We will one day see the glory of the resurrection, that is the hope of the gospel.

1 Cor. 15 is about what would Christianity be without the resurrection, both Christ's and ours. His death does no good without it. What use is forgiveness if we remain dead. His disciples were transformed by His resurrection and this they preached above all. They are the witnesses to the truth of the resurrection. It wasn't a future reality for them, it was a present reality.



Good verse, but lets look at it in context.

John 11

24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

Here Jesus is teaching us that he has power over death. If we believe in him we shall have everlasting life. Lazarus' body was dead, but he was not dead spiritually. Jesus raised him from being dead, but Lazarus wasn't resurrected at this point. He still died again one day. When the resurrection happens we will no longer die.

The main subject IS "that he has power over death".

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul explains our present body as a seed of the body to come. Our resurrected bodies will not be seeds like these bodies. The resurrection body is what God intended for our present body.



Yep in fact there are two judgments. The first resurrection of the saints and believers when Christ returns and one for the non believers after the millennium reign. Reference Revelation 20, 1 Corinthian 15

I don't see that concept.


See my answer above in this post about the judgment.
Yes we are all called to repent and believe in Jesus and we shall have eternal life. We have that eternal life now by faith in him. He is our righteousness now. When all things take place we will be given a white robe of righteousness of our own, but until then we go on faith in Christ.

We are to already be robed in righteousness and keep those robes clean.

What you see as a future reality I see as a present reality.

Teke
Oct 14th 2008, 05:56 PM
We therefore have the resposibility of checking what is being taught in order not to be led astray, like the blind leading the blind.

1 Jn 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

God bless

Firstfruits

Firstfruits, you and Mcgyver have made excellent points. "Accountability" is key to any structured unity.

Firstfruits
Oct 14th 2008, 06:14 PM
Firstfruits, you and Mcgyver have made excellent points. "Accountability" is key to any structured unity.

Thank you Teke,

God bless you.

Firstfruits

TrustingFollower
Oct 15th 2008, 03:22 PM
Here’s the Scripture concerning the nations going up for the Feast of Tabernacles:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:13-18




This is good scripture thanks for posting it, but in order to see what it is telling us we have to look at the context of it.

Zechariah 14

1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

This verse shows us that we the believers now are not part of this prophecy. We will be ruling and reigning with Christ in the millennium period.

Revelation 20

4 ¶Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


So those not in Christ when he returns will gather for the feast of the Tabernacle and such as the scriptures say. Those in Christ are taken to reign with Christ as we see in Revelation and 1 Corinthians.

Firstfruits
Oct 15th 2008, 03:25 PM
This is good scripture thanks for posting it, but in order to see what it is telling us we have to look at the context of it.

Zechariah 14

1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

This verse shows us that we the believers now are not part of this prophecy. We will be ruling and reigning with Christ in the millennium period.

Revelation 20

4 ¶Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


So those not in Christ when he returns will gather for the feast of the Tabernacle and such as the scriptures say. Those in Christ are taken to reign with Christ as we see in Revelation and 1 Corinthians.

Were the scriptures I posted for you helpful?

2 Cor 3:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Cor 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

2 Cor 3:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

2 Cor 3:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Heb 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

Firstfruits

TrustingFollower
Oct 15th 2008, 04:00 PM
1 Cor. 15 is about what would Christianity be without the resurrection, both Christ's and ours. His death does no good without it. What use is forgiveness if we remain dead.

We live in Christ by faith now. We will be resurrected in full when Christ returns. Christ is the first fruit to the glory of the resurrection for all whom believe in him.

1 Corinthians 15

20 ¶But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,


His disciples were transformed by His resurrection and this they preached above all. They are the witnesses to the truth of the resurrection. It wasn't a future reality for them, it was a present reality.

1 Corinthians 15

3 ¶For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

Christ appeared to the apostles and more after he was resurrected, but they were not transformed. The only transformation spoken of is on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descends upon them in Acts 2 and they receive the spiritual gifts. Namely the gift of tongues that is displayed at the time.


In 1 Cor. 15 Paul explains our present body as a seed of the body to come. Our resurrected bodies will not be seeds like these bodies. The resurrection body is what God intended for our present body.
Exactly, we have not been resurrected yet and we are in a corruptible body still.

1 Corinthians 15

42 ¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.


I don't see that concept.
There are in fact to judgements, one for the believers and one for those that do not believe.

First judgement

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Revelation 20

4 ¶Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Second judgement

Revelation 20

11 ¶Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



We are to already be robed in righteousness and keep those robes clean.
We have Jesus' righteousness covering us now by faith in Him. We will get our own glory when we get our heavenly body.

1 Corinthians 15

43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;


What you see as a future reality I see as a present reality.

All the Apostles wrote of the coming of the lord and the scriptures are clear as to what will happen when He returns. We have not seen the glory of The Day of the Lord yet. We are instructed to wait patiently for that day.

James 5

7 ¶Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

Richard H
Oct 15th 2008, 04:28 PM
This is good scripture thanks for posting it, but in order to see what it is telling us we have to look at the context of it.

Zechariah 14

1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

This verse shows us that we the believers now are not part of this prophecy. We will be ruling and reigning with Christ in the millennium period.

<snip>
So those not in Christ when he returns will gather for the feast of the Tabernacle and such as the scriptures say. Those in Christ are taken to reign with Christ as we see in Revelation and 1 Corinthians.
So you are referring to the latter church as: the post-rapture church?

Every teaching I have heard led people to believe that God will empower His church mightly with an out pouring of the Spirit, but these are people who think we are out of here before any trouble. They were speaking of the church even now. With great signs and wonders and miracles happening.

Even so, I put these two verses together - to compare. (below)

I agree with you they are not speaking of us (as a church), but of Israel during the millennium.

I still don’t see the latter day church in Haggai 2.
Are you expecting the world to start sending donations?

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8

‘just not seein’ this glorious church, UNTIL He comes.
Richard

Haggai 2

5 `As for the promise which I made you when you came out of Egypt, My Spirit is abiding in your midst; do not fear!´
6 "For thus says the LORD of hosts, `Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land.
7 `I will shake all the nations; and they will come with the wealth of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory,´ says the LORD of hosts.
8 `The silver is Mine and the gold is Mine,´ declares the LORD of hosts.
9 `The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former,´ says the LORD of hosts, `and in this place I will give peace,´ declares the LORD of hosts."


And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:13-18

Teke
Oct 15th 2008, 04:29 PM
We live in Christ by faith now.

I still don't see your understanding of this. I agree we are alive in Christ, by faith now and forever. But seeds aren't dead things, they are alive and hold the fruit/plant they bring forth. This is God's doing.


There are in fact to judgements, one for the believers and one for those that do not believe.

You mean "two" not "to" judgments. This I disagree with. The Second Ecumenical council rejected the teaching (called chiliasm) of this literal thousand years you refer to as the basis of your understanding this in the manner you are. Thousand is often used in scripture (especially apocalyptic literature) to denote a long period of time, a great quantity, completion, perfection etc.

In Rev. 20, a thousand years is interpreted as the church age, when Jesus reigns on earth in those who believe. It is the era between the first and second coming of Christ, aka end times when satan's effectiveness at deceit is restricted through the cross and resurrection of Christ, and the saints share in Christ's earthly reign through the Church. In Revelation it is a consoling hope for those persecuted Christians threatened by martyrdom.

This is the Messianic age and we are living (seeds) in Christ presently. Living because we have been planted by God in Christ.

Note the verses you posted.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. Seeds can't come to life/fruitation unless they are planted or given life by God This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Notice this has to do with a "second death" not a second judgment.

Teke
Oct 15th 2008, 04:32 PM
Here’s the Scripture concerning the nations going up for the Feast of Tabernacles

For Christians this is the wedding feast of the Lamb. :)

Richard H
Oct 15th 2008, 04:57 PM
For Christians this is the wedding feast of the Lamb. :)
The dwelling place of God is now with man. I get it.

Every year?
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Teke
Oct 15th 2008, 05:15 PM
Every year?


IOW unto ages of ages/forever.

The feast of tabernacles in Zechariah (this portion concludes with a condemnation of Egypt and all nations that do not celebrate this feast) is associated with covenant renewal and the deliverance of Israel. In Christianity, the comparison is, Christ is the Eternal Word of God who, in the Incarnation "dwelt (tabernacled) among us" John 1:14 All who reject Christ and do not enter the Church to celebrate and serve Him are condemned.

Richard H
Oct 15th 2008, 08:49 PM
Well, I understand that, Teke. :)
The feast of tabernacles now and during the millennium is a shadow of the wedding feast / the incarnation / even perhaps post-judgment.

It still seems to me that both the Zechariah verse(s) and the Haggai verse(s) are referring to the millennium and not a pre-rapture church - as was my point.
(The only teachings I’ve ever encountered – promote a massive revival with tremendous outpourings – the expected "glory" of the pre-rapture church in the latter days)

Anyway, the OP is about unity, and I’ve now made it obvious how easy it is to lose focus and start quibbling.
Our focus should not be on the glory of the church, but the glory of God.

So we have ecumenical councils…

Teke
Oct 15th 2008, 09:12 PM
[FONT=Arial]It still seems to me that both the Zechariah verse(s) and the Haggai verse(s) are referring to the millennium and not a pre-rapture church - as was my point.
:agree:


So we have ecumenical councils…

:yes::yes::OFFT: