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edaps7
Oct 11th 2008, 02:40 PM
Ok, i wanted to try this again, but this time a wanted to make my position a little more clear then see what others had to say.

When i say God does not intervene i am saying I believe...
* He directly intervened in the past to show us who he was, what he expected of humans etc.
*He directly intervened through Jesus, by coming to earth.
*He directly intervened with Paul to share the word with us Gentiles.

The above things i am certain of, however when it comes to the times in which we live, this is where i tend to think that God is no longer hands on.

what i mean by this is...
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.
*God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.
*God doesnt "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)
*etc. etc. etc.

Reasons I have come to this conclusion is that, if i do believe God still directly intervenes then i MUST believe he is a child torturer, and that he kills innocent followers of him for kicks. Why do i say these things you may ask? Everyday there are untold numbers in Africa that pray to God to bring them simple things like food, and water, but many of them arent getting these things and perish. They prayed just like i do, why are none of their prayers answered? i guess God just hates Africans. Also why would there ever be more than one religion? The way i see it, if you believe God intervenes, then God created a bunch of people that don't believe in the "right" religion just to turn around and kill them later and send them to hell.

This isnt the God I read about in the bible.

I think God gave us everything we needed to go forward and prosper i.e. the bible, Jesus sacrifice. Why do we need more? Weare also told to take care of each other, so it is our responsibility that there are thousands dying around the world...God did not do it.

dworthington
Oct 11th 2008, 02:44 PM
God is the same yesterday, today and forever.....

Kahtar
Oct 11th 2008, 02:52 PM
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.Yes He does.

God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.If we seek first the kingdom of God, all we NEED will be provided us.

God doesnt "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)Yes, He does.


Reasons I have come to this conclusion is that, if i do believe God still directly intervenes then i MUST believe he is a child torturer, and that he kills innocent followers of him for kicks. Why do i say these things you may ask? Everyday there are untold numbers in Africa that pray to God to bring them simple things like food, and water, but many of them arent getting these things and perish. They prayed just like i do, why are none of their prayers answered? i guess God just hates Africans. Also why would there ever be more than one religion? The way i see it, if you believe God intervenes, then God created a bunch of people that don't believe in the "right" religion just to turn around and kill them later and send them to hell.

This isnt the God I read about in the bible.

I think God gave us everything we needed to go forward and prosper i.e. the bible, Jesus sacrifice. Why do we need more? Weare also told to take care of each other, so it is our responsibility that there are thousands dying around the world...God did not do it.These two paragraphs contradict each other. You have much to learn about the God you read about in the Bible, my friend. And, seemingly, about life in general. But it's okay to be where you are. Keep seeking Him, and learning of Him.

edaps7
Oct 11th 2008, 02:56 PM
Yes He does.
If we seek first the kingdom of God, all we NEED will be provided us.
Yes, He does.
evidence please, i gave reasons, you havent


These two paragraphs contradict each other. You have much to learn about the God you read about in the Bible, my friend. And, seemingly, about life in general. But it's okay to be where you are. Keep seeking Him, and learning of Him.

how do these contradict

Biastai
Oct 11th 2008, 03:05 PM
what i mean by this is...
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.
*God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.
*God doesnt "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)
*etc. etc. etc.



I'm not in firm agreement or disagreement on your first point I quoted above. I hesitate because of all the attestations to the power of prayer. So on that point I will not comment further.

However, I would agree with your next two. Material blessings brought by so-called righteousness is a belief held by many in Biblical Israel & Judah. On the other side of the coin, when calamity befalls one, it must've been because he sinned and angered God. (Distinctive Ideas of the OT, Norman Snaith)

The writer of Job regarded this as an oversimplfied "formula" of God and therefore wrote the book to address this problem of theodicy. The book concludes by not giving us specific answers as to the reasons for Job's lot but telling us that God is far above man's understanding and fathomability.

When one starts to think God "reacts" to such and such an event and "does" this and that to correct the situation, isn't he describing the actions of God in man's terms? God does not do as man does.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD."

Isaiah 55:8, NIV

Literalist-Luke
Oct 11th 2008, 03:12 PM
Ok, i wanted to try this again, but this time a wanted to make my position a little more clear then see what others had to say.

When i say God does not intervene i am saying I believe...
* He directly intervened in the past to show us who he was, what he expected of humans etc.
*He directly intervened through Jesus, by coming to earth.
*He directly intervened with Paul to share the word with us Gentiles.

The above things i am certain of, however when it comes to the times in which we live, this is where i tend to think that God is no longer hands on.

what i mean by this is...
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.
*God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.
*God doesnt "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)
*etc. etc. etc.

Reasons I have come to this conclusion is that, if i do believe God still directly intervenes then i MUST believe he is a child torturer, and that he kills innocent followers of him for kicks. Why do i say these things you may ask? Everyday there are untold numbers in Africa that pray to God to bring them simple things like food, and water, but many of them arent getting these things and perish. They prayed just like i do, why are none of their prayers answered? i guess God just hates Africans. Also why would there ever be more than one religion? The way i see it, if you believe God intervenes, then God created a bunch of people that don't believe in the "right" religion just to turn around and kill them later and send them to hell.

This isnt the God I read about in the bible.

I think God gave us everything we needed to go forward and prosper i.e. the bible, Jesus sacrifice. Why do we need more? Weare also told to take care of each other, so it is our responsibility that there are thousands dying around the world...God did not do it.So prayer is a waste of time?

RogerW
Oct 11th 2008, 03:12 PM
Ok, i wanted to try this again, but this time a wanted to make my position a little more clear then see what others had to say.

When i say God does not intervene i am saying I believe...
* He directly intervened in the past to show us who he was, what he expected of humans etc.
*He directly intervened through Jesus, by coming to earth.
*He directly intervened with Paul to share the word with us Gentiles.

The above things i am certain of, however when it comes to the times in which we live, this is where i tend to think that God is no longer hands on.

what i mean by this is...
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.
*God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.
*God doesnt "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)
*etc. etc. etc.

Reasons I have come to this conclusion is that, if i do believe God still directly intervenes then i MUST believe he is a child torturer, and that he kills innocent followers of him for kicks. Why do i say these things you may ask? Everyday there are untold numbers in Africa that pray to God to bring them simple things like food, and water, but many of them arent getting these things and perish. They prayed just like i do, why are none of their prayers answered? i guess God just hates Africans. Also why would there ever be more than one religion? The way i see it, if you believe God intervenes, then God created a bunch of people that don't believe in the "right" religion just to turn around and kill them later and send them to hell.

This isnt the God I read about in the bible.

I think God gave us everything we needed to go forward and prosper i.e. the bible, Jesus sacrifice. Why do we need more? Weare also told to take care of each other, so it is our responsibility that there are thousands dying around the world...God did not do it.

Greetings Edaps,

If I am understanding you here, what you are saying is that God created, gave us His Son, and revealed His Son, told us what He wants us to do, and showed us how to do it, then He pretty much bowed out and leaves the rest up to fallen mankind? In other words you don't believe that God is providential in the affairs of man, nor do you believe He governs His creation?

Blessings,
RW

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 11th 2008, 03:30 PM
By saying that God does not intervene anymore on your certain 'points' you stated... by stating this , one would conclude that at some point prior He must of.... according to your logic and wisdom...

God states in His Word...

that He changes not.... He DOES NOT change... He means what He says.. and I say this as a GENTLE reminder to you...

so in essense your saying God has changed... or changes according to your wisdom or understanding....

but He says...

My ways are nor your ways... nor are My thoughts your thoughts....

God Himself Knew me before the foundation of the world.. He 'knew' me in my mother's womb, before He saved me in 1994 He blessed me beyond measure... even when I didnt deserve it... it was His unconditional love and goodness which led me back to Him... and now He blesses me.. with many blessings and some of it is financial but their are other blessings that go way beyond that..... He speaks to me in different ways.. thru His Word.. and other ways....

By your stating that God doesnt 'intervene' or isnt active in these areas contradicts what many true Christians regard as a part of their 'faith' and walk with their Redeemer........

Putting God in a 'box' will get you know where but frustration and bitterness...

I suggest you look to Golgotha and that bloody tree.....and that event and the Person who was Involved in it....... Look to the One who Gave it all .. laid down His life unconditionally.... the One who thru the Grace of God .. tasted death for every person ever alive....
Jesus the Christ.. who is God manifest in the flesh... there you will begin to understand the Greatness of God's Love for His Own and this planet as a whole....

There you will find a God who is not 'limited' to certain things or 'limited' to man's intellect or carnal understanding... You will find a God who HAS NOT CHANGED... even from the foundation of the world!

militarywife
Oct 11th 2008, 04:06 PM
I would like to Praise God for healing me.:pp God healed me from the serious disease of alcoholism. HEALED, DELIVERED, RESTORED, and then even added MORE blessing to my life with JOY overflowing.

My relationship with God is so much MORE than simply salvation. When I accepted the gift of salvation...I also gave my life over to God. I surrendered all. I believe God has so much more for ALL who chose to accept His gifts.

Kahtar
Oct 11th 2008, 04:38 PM
evidence please, i gave reasons, you havent

What kind of evidence do you want? Scriptural evidence? There's plenty of that. You have only to open the book and start reading it.
Do you want me to prove somehow that God hears and answers prayer and takes care of His children whom He loves? There is no evidence I could provide you that would convince you. You are set in your unbelief, and if one were raised from the dead in front of you, you would not believe.
The problem is not lack of evidence. The problem is your unbelief. And I can assure you God will not do any of those things in your life UNLESS you simply take Him at His Word and believe what He said.

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 11th 2008, 11:07 PM
Ok, i wanted to try this again, but this time a wanted to make my position a little more clear then see what others had to say.

When i say God does not intervene i am saying I believe...
* He directly intervened in the past to show us who he was, what he expected of humans etc.
*He directly intervened through Jesus, by coming to earth.
*He directly intervened with Paul to share the word with us Gentiles.

God still directly intervenes, but it is through the work of the Holy Spirit. Actually, God intervenes a lot more now than He did in the Old Testament. Instead of directly communicating with a few people, like Moses and Abraham, for many, He now communicates with all of humanity through the Holy Spirit.



Everyday there are untold numbers in Africa that pray to God to bring them simple things like food, and water, but many of them arent getting these things and perish. They prayed just like i do, why are none of their prayers answered? i guess God just hates Africans.

Why are you singling out Africans? There is poverty and starvation in every country....even America.

Remember the story of the woman who gave the 2 mites in Mark 12? Remember what Jesus said of her?

Assuredly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.

Don't you worry about those starving people in Africa who continue to pray and trust the Lord, despite their poverty. Their rewards are not on earth, but in Heaven. The Lord rewards sacrifice.

Heb. 13:15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.

How much more of a sacrifice do you think it is to offer prayers and thanksgivings to God in your poverty, than in the wealth of your abundance? Would it make sense that a starving person who offers God praise daily is making more of a sacrifice than one whose needs are continually met, and who receives earthly blessings from God?

Those who sacrifice more on earth will receive a greater reward in heaven, so don't you worry about those starving people in Africa. The Lord hears their prayers, and he will reward them accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised if their eternal reward far outweighs ours.



Also why would there ever be more than one religion? The way i see it, if you believe God intervenes, then God created a bunch of people that don't believe in the "right" religion just to turn around and kill them later and send them to hell.

There are different religions because Satan is at work behind them. He loves nothing more than deceiving mankind.
We have the truth of the word, though, which God gave us freely, and even sent His Son to hang on a cross and die for....that we may receive this truth. We have no excuse for our unbelief...Paul calls it willful ignorance.


I think God gave us everything we needed to go forward and prosper i.e. the bible, Jesus sacrifice. Why do we need more? Weare also told to take care of each other, so it is our responsibility that there are thousands dying around the world...God did not do it.

True....God does not directly inflict human suffering. He has in the past, for judgement, but we are living in an age of grace.

edaps7
Oct 12th 2008, 12:33 PM
Greetings Edaps,

If I am understanding you here, what you are saying is that God created, gave us His Son, and revealed His Son, told us what He wants us to do, and showed us how to do it, then He pretty much bowed out and leaves the rest up to fallen mankind?

yes unless you can show me why this isnt logical.


In other words you don't believe that God is providential in the affairs of man, nor do you believe He governs His creation?

i do believe he governs his creation, but he doesnt physically intervene.

Kahtar
Oct 12th 2008, 12:42 PM
Edaps, I think you deserve a better answer than I gave you. So here is my answer. Go and read it.http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=53967

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 12:43 PM
yes unless you can show me why this isnt logical.

i do believe he governs his creation, but he doesnt physically intervene.So what's the use of praying?

edaps7
Oct 12th 2008, 12:47 PM
that He changes not.... He DOES NOT change... He means what He says.. and I say this as a GENTLE reminder to you...

so in essense your saying God has changed... or changes according to your wisdom or understanding....

...There you will find a God who is not 'limited' to certain things or 'limited' to man's intellect or carnal understanding... You will find a God who HAS NOT CHANGED... even from the foundation of the world!...


The whole "God doesnt change" angle always baffles me a little? I am not implying that at all. The funny thing is "change" isnt defined so people ascribe whatever meaning to it they want. If i change my socks am i still me?...of course i am. Just becasue God chooses to do thing differently at different times does not mean he changed, maybe the course changed but not him. Hope this clears things up on this



By your stating that God doesnt 'intervene' or isnt active in these areas contradicts what many true Christians regard as a part of their 'faith' and walk with their Redeemer........

wow, God has to meddle in affairs in order for people to believe in him? So you are saying if I am right then millions of people will just walk away from God?


Putting God in a 'box' will get you know where but frustration and bitterness...


You are right i am frusturated and bitter at people that think God will fix their problems for them.

edaps7
Oct 12th 2008, 12:49 PM
So what's the use of praying?

to align ourselves with Gods will

tt1106
Oct 12th 2008, 01:07 PM
Ok, i wanted to try this again, but this time a wanted to make my position a little more clear then see what others had to say.

When i say God does not intervene i am saying I believe...
* He directly intervened in the past to show us who he was, what he expected of humans etc.
*He directly intervened through Jesus, by coming to earth.
*He directly intervened with Paul to share the word with us Gentiles.
God intervenes all the time. Unfortunately, it is often more prevelant and visible in places where the word of the Lord is moving.
Jesus was God's Specific revelation to people. Nothing more is needed.
We cannot continue to ask God for proof of his existence. He has given us plenty of it. We must believe and act on faith.



The above things i am certain of, however when it comes to the times in which we live, this is where i tend to think that God is no longer hands on.

what i mean by this is...
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.
*God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.
*God doesnt "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)
*etc. etc. etc.
God does heal people. Because we choose to attribute miracles to some kind of natural event does not make them less a miracle from God.
There are plenty of testimonies about miracles, even on this board. Miracles of haling.
Children of God do not want riches in the first place. Or shouldn't. The worship of money is idolatry and not of God.
God does speak to us directly. I haven't heard a HUGE voice form Heaven, but I don't doubt that others have. God has spoken to me directly. It's what led me to him in the first place.



Reasons I have come to this conclusion is that, if i do believe God still directly intervenes then i MUST believe he is a child torturer, and that he kills innocent followers of him for kicks.
Wow, Instead of believing it is the work of a twisted or fallen human being. God does give us personal responsibility and free choice you know.


Why do i say these things you may ask? Everyday there are untold numbers in Africa that pray to God to bring them simple things like food, and water, but many of them arent getting these things and perish. They prayed just like i do, why are none of their prayers answered? i guess God just hates Africans. Also why would there ever be more than one religion? The way i see it, if you believe God intervenes, then God created a bunch of people that don't believe in the "right" religion just to turn around and kill them later and send them to hell.
Africa is one of the fastest growing Christian nations. So you would presume that this is because God is NOT answering prayer?



This isnt the God I read about in the bible.

I think God gave us everything we needed to go forward and prosper i.e. the bible, Jesus sacrifice. Why do we need more? Weare also told to take care of each other, so it is our responsibility that there are thousands dying around the world...God did not do it.
I agree with the latter part of this statement.
God is sufficient.
Blessings.
-Todd

edaps7
Oct 12th 2008, 01:09 PM
God still directly intervenes, but it is through the work of the Holy Spirit. Actually, God intervenes a lot more now than He did in the Old Testament. Instead of directly communicating with a few people, like Moses and Abraham, for many, He now communicates with all of humanity through the Holy Spirit.

This depend on how you define the holy spirit


Don't you worry about those starving people in Africa who continue to pray and trust the Lord, despite their poverty. Their rewards are not on earth, but in Heaven. The Lord rewards sacrifice.

This is the very problem with "Christians" today, they shun responsibility and say don't worry about it. Jesus told us ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE love God and.....what? Love your neighbor. How is letting people starve and then adding salt to the wound by saying..."oh don't worry when you die a miserable death God will reward you for it" Loving my neighbor? Did Jesus say..."help yourself first, then your family, and if you have a little left over time then help someone else" NO NO NO. But for some reason this has become the foundation for most Christian doctrine today.

I just read a story where a minister had a prayer vigil praying that Obama wouldnt win the election. but...wait I thought that chrsitians thought God could intervene even if he DOES win and make something positive out of it? I guess intervention only applies if it benefits you personally?

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 01:09 PM
i do believe he governs his creation, but he doesnt physically intervene.

Hi edaps,

I believe God does intervene, because He did so in my own life. The testimonies of many Christians will speak to the power of that intervention in their lives.

Have you not yet experienced His intervention in your own life?

edaps7
Oct 12th 2008, 01:20 PM
We cannot continue to ask God for proof of his existence. He has given us plenty of it. We must believe and act on faith.

I have all the proof i need, I am not asking for proof. I am asking for people to live according to the way God wants them to and stop asking for handouts.


God does speak to us directly.this is completely unbiblical


God does give us personal responsibility and free choice you know.Yes, and we should use it to help others


Africa is one of the fastest growing Christian nations. So you would presume that this is because God is NOT answering prayer?I would presume it is becasue we have thousands of missionaries over there and many african nations speak english.

But tell me what is the fastest growing belief in America today? Secular Humanism. So you would presume that this is because God IS answering prayer?

edaps7
Oct 12th 2008, 01:28 PM
Hi edaps,

I believe God does intervene, because He did so in my own life. The testimonies of many Christians will speak to the power of that intervention in their lives.

Have you not yet experienced His intervention in your own life?

So let me ask you this, did God intervene because you prayed? If so, then you are saying God submitted to YOUR will and intervened becasue you asked? huh...sounds a little suspect to me

Slug1
Oct 12th 2008, 01:29 PM
You are right i am frusturated and bitter at people that think God will fix their problems for them.Our Lord, wants to fix our problems which are sin, struggles, conflicts, troubles etc. That is why we confess them to Him and place them at His feet. He asks us to pray for Him to take our problems (mountains)...

Mark 11:
23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. 24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

If I were you I'd pray to God to take that bitterness from yourself and stop stifling God's will for others to call on Him over everything (whatever) in their lives. It's called "surrender" and when we surrender our problems to God... not just the ones we decide to pray about but ALL OF THEM... then God can work in our lives and we aren't dictating what He's allowed to do for us.

Click on my testimony and follow the update link to the Breaking the Chains testimonies. God was very clear when He spoke to me. Also, the word "learn" in one of my signature lines is to another time in my life when God spoke directly to me. These are just two examples and there are so many others I have not written about.

stillforgiven
Oct 12th 2008, 02:55 PM
what i mean by this is...
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.
*God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.
*God doesn't "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)
*etc. etc. etc.

If you'd said, "God does not always miraculously heal people because we pray," I would say I totally agree with you. I can give several examples for this, but everyone on here will know of more people who weren't healed than who were. Some just won't admit it. And I don't mean those who eventually got better. I mean those who without a miracle from God, they would die or be forever disabled.

And with your statement, "God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian," I again totally agree and could give many examples of people who love the Lord more than anything, but seem to be living in poverty.

With this statement, "God doesn't "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)*etc. etc. etc.," I have to disagree with the "never" flavor of the statement. I know of some who have received direct instruction that played out to be real.

A lot of what God does or doesn't do seems to be without a pattern that can be a "if...then" statement. I don't think He really wants us to totally understand Him.

Biastai
Oct 12th 2008, 03:49 PM
So prayer is a waste of time?

He was addressing one type of prayer. In no way did he say prayer in general is a waste of time. And even this specific type of prayer is not a waste of time so to speak.

It goes back to Matthew 6:6-13(NIV).

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.'"


God has willed what becomes of us. This should be confessed in our any prayer including those while in illness. Much easier said than done, I know. But by all means, YES, one should express how he/she feels about one's illness or plight or calamity to God. I'm not saying either that one should repress grief, hold back tears, and say, "Yes its God's will."

Gethsemane is the perfect example of this and one the most beautiful scenes in the Bible.

"Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. "
Matthew 25:38-44, NIV

Here, Jesus expresses in no uncertain terms how he feels about the events to follow. He even tells the Father he would rather not go through with it. But do you think in his mind he actually thought he wouldn't have to? It doesn't stop him from praying about it. Yet he still confesses that his Father's will is to be done just as he taught his disciples to pray.

So going back to the original poster's opinion, I believe he thinks that if God chooses to heal someone, its not so much a "miracle" than something already planned by God through which to show his glory. Praying in this manner however cannot be considered a waste of time in any sense. But understandably, when one is healed of an illness, in your great joy, by all means, call it a miracle!

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 04:40 PM
So let me ask you this, did God intervene because you prayed? If so, then you are saying God submitted to YOUR will and intervened becasue you asked? huh...sounds a little suspect to me


edaps, why are you so hostile? Actually, I think the intervention might have been because someone else prayed for me, but that's beside the point.

You stated that God does not intervene in our lives. Now you are hearing our testimonies in response. We bear witness that God does, in fact, intervene in our lives. Whether it is a result of prayer, or simply of His mercy toward us, is less important than the fact that He did intervene.

Are you asking for an intervention in your life that has not yet happened?

A820djd
Oct 12th 2008, 04:44 PM
So prayer is a waste of time?

I don't "pray" "pray"... In the bible God says he knows your prayers before you ever say them. Matthew 6: 5-15

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

flybaby
Oct 12th 2008, 05:24 PM
Lam 3:22 It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.


So, if he did not intervene with his mercies, we would all have been consumed a long time ago.

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 12th 2008, 10:33 PM
This depend on how you define the holy spirit

The third person of the Godhead, who comes alongside us and intervenes for us:

John 16:7 It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority.......(14)He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is mine and declare it to you.


This is the very problem with "Christians" today, they shun responsibility and say don't worry about it.

Edaps....I completely agree that we are not to shun responsibility, but part of being a mature Christian is realizing that, as humans, our resources are limited. We are to do what we can with what the Lord has given us, and realize that He must do the rest, because we as humans are fully and completely iuncapable of solving all of the world's problems.

We must realize that there are some things that are just out of our control. Remember the parable of the feeding of the 5,000? The little boy gave Jesus his loaves and fish....He gave all he could, but it wasn't enough. Jesus was the one who had to intervene in order that the crowd could be fed. Now, we could all sit around and argue that the people should have thought about it beforehand, and brought food, so that everyone could eat, and they should have done more, but if that had happened, Jesus would not have received the glory for that miracle.

I think it is a staggering misstatement to say that Jesus does not intervene today. I think He intervenes a lot more than we realize, our problem is that we tend to focus more on the situations where God does not appear to intervene, and we lose sight of those situations where He does.

It is foolish of us to question God, or to blame God's people for the way the world is. To do so is to diminish God's sovereignty. The truth is, even where it seems that God is not working, He is still in control. We are commanded to do all we can to help others, but as I said earlier, our resources are limited, and when they seem to be inadequate, that's where God takes over. It is unfair to blame Christians when the need is greater than the resources.....and it is unfair to blame God, for as David said, who can truly understand His ways?



Jesus told us ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE love God and.....what? Love your neighbor. How is letting people starve and then adding salt to the wound by saying..."oh don't worry when you die a miserable death God will reward you for it" Loving my neighbor?

I think you completely misconstrued my statements.


Did Jesus say..."help yourself first, then your family, and if you have a little left over time then help someone else" NO NO NO. But for some reason this has become the foundation for most Christian doctrine today.

Actually, the Bible does say that we are to help those in our family first. This is because those are the people whom God has entrusted us to first and foremost:

1 Tim 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever

1 Tim 3:5 For if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?

We are to help those in our immediate family, give to the Lord, then give to those in need with what God has entrusted to us. This is good stewardship....to give to those in need at the sacrifice of your own family is unbiblical and ungodly.


I just read a story where a minister had a prayer vigil praying that Obama wouldnt win the election. but...wait I thought that chrsitians thought God could intervene even if he DOES win and make something positive out of it? I guess intervention only applies if it benefits you personally?

The bottom line is....We are commanded to pray. Are you suggesting that we disobey God instead?

Kahtar
Oct 13th 2008, 12:27 AM
God does speak to us directly.this is completely unbiblical
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. (John 10:3 KJV)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (John 10:27 KJV)
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Doesn't look unbiblical to me..................

edaps7
Oct 13th 2008, 12:42 PM
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. (John 10:3 KJV)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (John 10:27 KJV)
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Doesn't look unbiblical to me..................


problem is you didnt actually read the meaning of these passages you just read the words. Another common mistake of modern day Christians. These passages are referring to the "call" of salvation. NOT an actual voice, or directive.

Kahtar
Oct 13th 2008, 01:16 PM
Edaps, you are going to have a very hard time convincing those of us who HAVE heard God's voice that we don't hear it.
As to the interpretation of those verses, I take it as it says it. His sheep hear his voice.
As to hearing the salvation call, logically, that would be a call to sheep who are not His, inviting them in. But HIS sheep know Him, and know His voice, and follow Him.
Did you have a chance to read that link I provided you?
I can understand why you would be so adament that His voice is not heard today since you apparently have never heard it. For you to believe that His voice can be heard would mean that you have missed out on something, and possibly calls into question your salvation.
But it really doesn't. You see, I think you HAVE heard His voice, and simply don't recognize it as such, and as long as you so firmly believe that you CAN'T hear His voice, you will never recognize it when you hear it.

joztok
Oct 13th 2008, 01:25 PM
what i mean by this is...
*God does not miraculously heal people because we pray.
*God does not shower riches upon me because i am a good faithful Christian.
*God doesnt "tell" us to do things directly, (what i mean by "tell"...is i pray and i hear a whisper in the wind, or sign, or something of that nature.)
*etc. etc. etc.

Reasons I have come to this conclusion is that, if i do believe God still directly intervenes then i MUST believe he is a child torturer, and that he kills innocent followers of him for kicks. Why do i say these things you may ask? Everyday there are untold numbers in Africa that pray to God to bring them simple things like food, and water, but many of them aren't getting these things and perish. They prayed just like i do, why are none of their prayers answered? i guess God just hates Africans. Also why would there ever be more than one religion? The way i see it, if you believe God intervenes, then God created a bunch of people that don't believe in the "right" religion just to turn around and kill them later and send them to hell.

This isn't the God I read about in the bible.

I think God gave us everything we needed to go forward and prosper i.e. the bible, Jesus sacrifice. Why do we need more? Weare also told to take care of each other, so it is our responsibility that there are thousands dying around the world...God did not do it.

This post really makes me sad as this informs me that you're relationship with God is weak. I really hope this is not the case. He does talk. He does answer prayer. He does intervene. He does help and He does miraculously heal. He can heal, but sometimes he doesn't. Generally there is a reason - a good one. If you're wanting to get healed of physical sickness, check out your local 'Healing Rooms' in your area. It's a local healing ministry that is fantastic. I'm apart of the ministry and it's amazing how God does want to answer people's prayers. He operates on people as fast they want to go. Sometime they can be on-the-spot miraculous, other times it's progressive so they can have an enriched relationship with God, a strengthening of character or have a powerful testimony that will lead their families or doctors to Jesus.

As much as this sounds hard to believe, pain is given to us simply because it is a grace of God. It informs us that something fatal needs to be addressed. What Christ did on Calvary was make death (separation from life - God), himself! Thus our understanding on death is no longer a scary ominous fearful thing, but a thing we look forward too when we run the good race as best we can. It has now simply been turned into a gateway that leads us into glorification!

Yes Africans suffer. But God suffers with them. You want to know why Christianity sees God so alive and active in the countries of Africa?
Now that is what we should be hoping to die for.

Those who are in Christ, suffer with Christ. To understand this, read Romans 8. God's not a bully because he gave us pain. No. We fatally wounded ourselves when got the knife and cut the umbilical chord our selves. He gave us pain so that we could be aware of the fatal wound so that we can rely on Him as our healer and supplier.

In terms of God showering riches on us, His presence is all we need. But when we do have a solid relationship with Him, it's amazing when He does choose to randomly or strategically bless us in health, wealth or finances.
Bare in mind, as Christians, we aren't the greatest steward when it comes to saving money. It is hard. But it can be done. If Christian's had a solid relationship with God, they wouldn't be caught up in false gospels, 'get rich money schemes', etc. God is wisdom and he is more then willing to teach us how to be good stewards if we are dependent on Him as a teacher.

After all is said and done, I pray that you start journalling and praying with God and rest your heart and mind and allow him to minister to you. It's amazing to know that He is always in you just waiting to 'prosper' you.
Any other questions, give me a mail.

God bless!
Joztok

joztok
Oct 13th 2008, 01:44 PM
problem is you didnt actually read the meaning of these passages you just read the words. Another common mistake of modern day Christians. These passages are referring to the "call" of salvation. NOT an actual voice, or directive.

I have to object. Who was John talking to at the start of Revelations? Was that not God who spoke to John in chapters 1-3 of Revelations?

Was it not God that intervened and saved the woman caught in adultery? Did he not talk to her? If God walked among the Israelites as Jesus Christ, isn't that God talking and responding to people's cries, questions and dilemmas?

The key is that we are not listening or recognising God's voice the same Israel did not recognise Jesus Christ there Lord and Anointed King!
Observe Jesus' accusation against each church:

Rev 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Rev 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Rev 2:29
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3:6
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3:13
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Rev 3:22
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

God hasn't stopped speaking to us. He is constantly wanting to talk to us. He hasn't shut up! This is great! That means anyone can take the risk and dare listen to what He is saying to his sacred Church right now.

How does God speak to you? Through vision? Dialogue? Feeling? Signs? Maybe he has put on your spirit the feelings of injustice so you can be a missionary in Africa or for you to actually do something awesome with your life?
To me it's in dialogue and vision. I'd like to feel Him though, but he clearly chooses not to speak to me through feeling.

I'll be praying for you mate. Hope this blesses you. He is speaking, just we are too scared to listen!

flybaby
Oct 14th 2008, 01:25 AM
Really, as I was thinking about this thread yesterday while I was in church, there are probably hundreds of verses we could post that prove that God does still intervene in our lives today. There are probably just as many personal stories that we could cite showing God's hands in our lives.

But what it all comes down to, Edaps, is that none of these will be good enough for you. You will not accept any of it as truth and therefore, it is pointless to discuss this with you further.

edaps7
Oct 14th 2008, 02:21 AM
Edaps, you are going to have a very hard time convincing those of us who HAVE heard God's voice that we don't hear it.
As to the interpretation of those verses, I take it as it says it. His sheep hear his voice.
As to hearing the salvation call, logically, that would be a call to sheep who are not His, inviting them in. But HIS sheep know Him, and know His voice, and follow Him.
Did you have a chance to read that link I provided you?
I can understand why you would be so adament that His voice is not heard today since you apparently have never heard it. For you to believe that His voice can be heard would mean that you have missed out on something, and possibly calls into question your salvation.
But it really doesn't. You see, I think you HAVE heard His voice, and then simply don't recognize it as such, and as long as you so firmly believe that you CAN'T hear His voice, you will never recognize it when you hear it.

The reason it says they are HIS sheep is because it is referring to the elect.

The problem with your position is that it discounts God's sovereignty you don't have to "hear" anything God wants you to do becasue he is sovereign therefore you could never make a decision that goes against his will. So if you believe in a sovereign God "hearing" is irrelevant.

edaps7
Oct 14th 2008, 02:36 AM
Really, as I was thinking about this thread yesterday while I was in church, there are probably hundreds of verses we could post that prove that God does still intervene in our lives today. There are probably just as many personal stories that we could cite showing God's hands in our lives.

But what it all comes down to, Edaps, is that none of these will be good enough for you. You will not accept any of it as truth and therefore, it is pointless to discuss this with you further.

Flybaby your reflection seem sincere, I am sorry that you seem to think i could not be convinced to change my position. I didnt come to this conclusion in haste, I was once in your shoes and after much study and reflection came to the point where i am today. The funny thing is my relationship with God has never been more clear. I realize it is a difficult concept to grasp and I even rebel against it because i WANT to believe God will fix things for me. However after much study i came to the realization that God was NEVER shy about giving evidence of his existence in the bible. If he wanted someone to hear him it came across clear as a bell and there was no second guessing. Jesus healed people in front of witnesses, there was no questioning what happened, they saw it with their own eyes. Jesus fed people through miraculous means there was no question what happened, he brought people back to life and even came back to life himself. Every intervention he had in this world was unquestionable. He did all of this because these people did not have the bible, nor did thet have access to the general revelation of nature as we do. God had to use different means to convince people, we no longer need these types of things to be convinced.

σяєяυииєя
Oct 14th 2008, 03:54 AM
... God had to use different means to convince people, we no longer need these types of things to be convinced.


Hi edaps7,

I have a question: what do we need now to be convinced ?


__________________
Peace, and so forth

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Kahtar
Oct 14th 2008, 04:17 AM
The reason it says they are HIS sheep is because it is referring to the elect.
Precisely what I was saying.


The problem with your position is that it discounts God's sovereignty

No, not even close my friend. My 'position' understands God's sovereignty, and relys upon it. I recognize He is sovereign and I am not, and that is why I seek His guidance, and listen to His direction. You apparently seem to think that my 'position' is merely an intellectual concept, rather than a way of life.
you don't have to "hear" anything God wants you to do becasue he is sovereign therefore you could never make a decision that goes against his will. So if you believe in a sovereign God "hearing" is irrelevant.
Wow........
So you are telling me YOU never make a decision that goes against His will? That's, frankly, incredible. You believe that every decision you make is God's will? You never commit a sin?

edaps7
Oct 14th 2008, 05:11 AM
Hi edaps7,

I have a question: what do we need now to be convinced ?



the bible and the record of nature should be enough.

edaps7
Oct 14th 2008, 05:27 AM
I recognize He is sovereign and I am not, and that is why I seek His guidance, and listen to His direction. You apparently seem to think that my 'position' is merely an intellectual concept, rather than a way of life.


here is the thing, there is no need to "listen" it is already spelled out for you in the bible, all you have to do is obey.


So you are telling me YOU never make a decision that goes against His will?

On the contrary, i think WE are responsible to make our own decisions. There is no need to "listen" for God to tell you what to do. Because I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that if God does not want me to make a certain decision it will be impossible for me to go against his wishes. To clarify, i do believe God can interact in our thoughts, i just do not believe he intervenes physically through healing, talking, etc. I really see no reason he would need to do these things, would you still believe in God if you were 100% certain he did not interact with us? I certainly would.

edaps7
Oct 14th 2008, 01:43 PM
Was it not God that intervened and saved the woman caught in adultery? Did he not talk to her? If God walked among the Israelites as Jesus Christ, isn't that God talking and responding to people's cries, questions and dilemmas?


i said i believe he did these thigns in the past but no longer does

Kahtar
Oct 14th 2008, 02:03 PM
here is the thing, there is no need to "listen" it is already spelled out for you in the bible, all you have to do is obey.
I certainly agree that much of what we are to do is clearly provided us in His Word. But His Word does not answer many things in our daily lives. If I have not listened to Him, I would not be where I am right now, doing what I'm doing. It is because of His clear speaking to me that I am here.


On the contrary, i think WE are responsible to make our own decisions.
Yes, we are responsible for our own decisions. He never violates our free will.


Because I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that if God does not want me to make a certain decision it will be impossible for me to go against his wishes.
You have ignored my previous question. Do you ever sin? I can tell you that you do, and when you do, it most definately goes against His will. I'll go so far as to say that if you say you have no sin, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. And because you do sin, your statement is entirely erroneous.


To clarify, i do believe God can interact in our thoughts, i just do not believe he intervenes physically through healing, talking, etc.
How exactly does God interact in your thoughts?


would you still believe in God if you were 100% certain he did not interact with us? I certainly would.
I probably would. But you see, since He in fact DOES interact, in a very personal way, and actually does speak to us, directly, personally, even calling our name, telling us to do things we would not otherwise do, sharing His amazing sense of humor and at the same time His absolute sovereignty and seriousness, and I have personally experienced this on numerous occasions, how will you convince me that He does not speak to us?

Biastai
Oct 14th 2008, 04:11 PM
Flybaby your reflection seem sincere, I am sorry that you seem to think i could not be convinced to change my position. I didnt come to this conclusion in haste, I was once in your shoes and after much study and reflection came to the point where i am today. The funny thing is my relationship with God has never been more clear. I realize it is a difficult concept to grasp and I even rebel against it because i WANT to believe God will fix things for me. However after much study i came to the realization that God was NEVER shy about giving evidence of his existence in the bible. If he wanted someone to hear him it came across clear as a bell and there was no second guessing. Jesus healed people in front of witnesses, there was no questioning what happened, they saw it with their own eyes. Jesus fed people through miraculous means there was no question what happened, he brought people back to life and even came back to life himself. Every intervention he had in this world was unquestionable. He did all of this because these people did not have the bible, nor did thet have access to the general revelation of nature as we do. God had to use different means to convince people, we no longer need these types of things to be convinced.

Your personal relationship with God is most important in all this, and I'm happy for you that yours is going well. I don't see the dire need to convince each other of specifics seen in this thread. I understand if some are offended because they experienced this intervention and that's perfectly fine in my view. But we each have our his/her own heart and we each see the world through a different set of eyes.

I think the manner of intervention is actually the point of disagreement here. I tend to lean towards your points in the original post. We as human beings "take" this object and "put" it here or there. For whatever reason, we think God acts in the same way. I don't think he "reacts" or "changes his mind" because of a prayer because it would define God with terms of human action.

"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us."
1 John 5:14

We don't seem to be able to steer God's course of action with a prayer according to this verse. If it is something already in concordance with his will, it is to be granted.

There's an interesting outlining of the 10 plagues in Egypt in the New Bible Dictionary from Tyndale that sheds some light on this differing manner of God's intervention, but I'm hesitant to post it since it might derail this thread off-topic. If there's interest here, I'll post the important details of it.

edaps7
Oct 14th 2008, 08:43 PM
I think the manner of intervention is actually the point of disagreement here. I tend to lean towards your points in the original post. We as human beings "take" this object and "put" it here or there. For whatever reason, we think God acts in the same way. I don't think he "reacts" or "changes his mind" because of a prayer because it would define God with terms of human action.

"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us."
1 John 5:14

We don't seem to be able to steer God's course of action with a prayer according to this verse. If it is something already in concordance with his will, it is to be granted.

Then it seems that we are in agreement on the subject. The reason this topic is so important to me is becasue secular humanism is growing so rapidly in our society. The whole idea of "hearing" God or being able to tap into Gods healing powers through prayer is a point of contention that i see all of the time with the secular types. It is as though there is a "hearing" club or as one poster put it a "healing school" that exclusive Christians can eventually belong to. The problem that arises from this is that people start coming to church try to "hear" God, never do, then turn away from God.

The issue is that if people continue to put forth such falsehood they are doing the very opposite of what they are instructed to do which is bring people to Christ, not drive them away. Today close to 75% of all "Christians" entering into college turn away from God...why? becasue of this "new age" view of God. If we would teach these kids solid priciples of reason and logic instead of shaky emotional lies, they would be able to stave off the lies they are taught in college that turn them away from God. NUMEROUS examples show that this is true.

keck553
Oct 14th 2008, 08:51 PM
God intervenes in my life daily. That certainly doesn't make my life a walk in the park.

God doesn't 'fix' what we think our problems are.

He fixes us, if we choose to follow Him and seek His Kingdom first. That takes more than just believing. It takes living it.

If it takes a 'whack in the knees' to get my attention (and it has), then praise God for His love.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 14th 2008, 09:03 PM
i said i believe he did these thigns in the past but no longer does


So your saying God changes? What changed His mind to 'change"?????:o:o

that He doesnt speak to His children or even Heal anybody...

You know the Greatest Miracle or Spiritual Healing is the

'new birth'.. being born -again...

Have you ,yourself experienced the 'new birth'.. ????

the regeneration.. that Jesus speaks about.. the Salvation that God starts and finishes......

If God doesnt heal or even speak to His people then He must be finished in the Work of Salvation.. He's not Saving anybody anymore..taking a look at this planet and the state of its inhabitants.. I dont believe God is finished in the Work of Salvation.. as far as 'saving' people... 'being Born Again'.....

Once again you can't put God in a 'box' or formula... He's bigger than all of that....

The best thing for me to do is to enter my prayer closet and pray that He does show you that He does still speak to His people and that He does still heal.... You may be suprised as to what happens...

May God bless you...

edaps7
Oct 15th 2008, 12:02 AM
So your saying God changes? What changed His mind to 'change"?????

I explained this before but since you didnt read it i will explain again. If i change my socks am i still me? yes....just becasue today i prefer red socks over white socks has no bearing on who i am. I am just saying God changed his socks but HE didnt change at all. got it?



Once again you can't put God in a 'box' or formula... He's bigger than all of that....i do not limit God, i never said he can't....i simply said i don't see him intervening. God can do whatever he wants.


The best thing for me to do is to enter my prayer closet and pray that He does show you that He does still speak to His people and that He does still heal.... You may be suprised as to what happens... I don't believe that God won't or can't or does not speak to us outside of the scriptures--certainly He does. In fact, the Scriptures make that point very clear. Someone asked me the question, "Do you believe God speaks to us?" I said, "Well, it kind of depends on what you mean by that." If you mean that God convicts us of sin through the Holy Spirit, which is an experiential thing, then yes, in a way. I mean when we are convicted by sin we feel that kind of "zap" that gets us. We're walking into the store, guys, and there's this rack of magazines (you know what I'm talking about) staring you in the face as you're trying to buy your soda or whatever it is and you feel this little something inside of you--call it a voice, call it whatever you want--saying, "No, don't do that." That's conviction of the Holy Spirit and we might say that "God spoke to us," although it wasn't a voice, but that's the way God communicates to us. I believe in that because that's in the Bible, it's very clear.

Keep in mind now that I have agreed that there is a way in which we can say that God speaks to us and those ways are clearly outlined in the Scripture. He convicts us of sin. He comforts us. He teaches us through the Holy Spirit. He also answers prayer. I don't take exception with this. It doesn't count as evidence against my view because my view doesn't conflict with that particular point.

Here is my view. Does the Bible teach that we must learn to discern the voice of the Lord individually for ourselves to live optimal Christian lives? Does the Bible teach we must learn to discern the voice of the Lord individually for ourselves in order to live optimally as Christians? The answer is no it does not teach that. So when someone teaches that you hear the voice of the Lord individually for yourself for optimal Christian living as a Christian discipline, this is not a Biblical discipline, ladies and gentlemen. It is not in there. Are there incidents of God speaking? Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the discipline of learning to discern the voice of the Lord for myself to live optimally as a Christian. It's not there.

RoadWarrior
Oct 15th 2008, 12:09 AM
Then it seems that we are in agreement on the subject. The reason this topic is so important to me is becasue secular humanism is growing so rapidly in our society. The whole idea of "hearing" God or being able to tap into Gods healing powers through prayer is a point of contention that i see all of the time with the secular types. It is as though there is a "hearing" club or as one poster put it a "healing school" that exclusive Christians can eventually belong to. The problem that arises from this is that people start coming to church try to "hear" God, never do, then turn away from God.

The issue is that if people continue to put forth such falsehood they are doing the very opposite of what they are instructed to do which is bring people to Christ, not drive them away. Today close to 75% of all "Christians" entering into college turn away from God...why? becasue of this "new age" view of God. If we would teach these kids solid priciples of reason and logic instead of shaky emotional lies, they would be able to stave off the lies they are taught in college that turn them away from God. NUMEROUS examples show that this is true.

Edaps, may I ask you a question, please. Why did you not start out your thread with this information in the first place? I think it would have given you a completely different set of responses than what you have received.

In any given topic, how the question or OP is formulated will trigger responses, often based on knee-jerk reactions to what we think you are asking.

If your question is sufficiently serious to you, take some time to think out how to pose it, and ask us again. What you have stated above in blue is not what I heard in your original question. But, it's possible that's just me.

Biastai
Oct 15th 2008, 12:56 AM
Then it seems that we are in agreement on the subject. The reason this topic is so important to me is becasue secular humanism is growing so rapidly in our society. The whole idea of "hearing" God or being able to tap into Gods healing powers through prayer is a point of contention that i see all of the time with the secular types. It is as though there is a "hearing" club or as one poster put it a "healing school" that exclusive Christians can eventually belong to. The problem that arises from this is that people start coming to church try to "hear" God, never do, then turn away from God.

The issue is that if people continue to put forth such falsehood they are doing the very opposite of what they are instructed to do which is bring people to Christ, not drive them away. Today close to 75% of all "Christians" entering into college turn away from God...why? becasue of this "new age" view of God. If we would teach these kids solid priciples of reason and logic instead of shaky emotional lies, they would be able to stave off the lies they are taught in college that turn them away from God. NUMEROUS examples show that this is true.

Really good point about college students and what children are being taught. The teachings include many things that a child will soon outgrow, and the sunday school teachings will quickly lose effect when abstract thinking is more developed in one's teen years. Its as if the kids will advance, but the teachings will not advance along with them.

Think back to the inquisitive child repeatedly asking "Why?" "Why?" People will want more than what is offered. This is not a problem to be glossed over. As I'm expecting my first child early next year, this is an issue I want nailed down solidly.

Biastai
Oct 15th 2008, 01:08 AM
God intervenes in my life daily. That certainly doesn't make my life a walk in the park.

God doesn't 'fix' what we think our problems are.

He fixes us, if we choose to follow Him and seek His Kingdom first. That takes more than just believing. It takes living it.

If it takes a 'whack in the knees' to get my attention (and it has), then praise God for His love.

Can you be more specific about these interventions? You're speaking metaphorically when you say "He fixes us" or he "whacks you in the knees."

I'm not mocking you. Its because I think you and other posters differ with the original poster on the topic of the manner of intervention rather than the involvement of an intervention at all.

I'm genuinely curious about your details. Do you hear his voice with your physical sense of hearing? Would you describe it as the wisdom gained from the Bible providing a basis for guidance for your actions? Specifically how has God grabbed your attention (your comment at the end of your post).

I extend this question to other posters who've stated they experienced these interventions. I think it would clarify much in this thread.

tt1106
Oct 15th 2008, 01:58 PM
Then it seems that we are in agreement on the subject. The reason this topic is so important to me is becasue secular humanism is growing so rapidly in our society. The whole idea of "hearing" God or being able to tap into Gods healing powers through prayer is a point of contention that i see all of the time with the secular types. It is as though there is a "hearing" club or as one poster put it a "healing school" that exclusive Christians can eventually belong to. The problem that arises from this is that people start coming to church try to "hear" God, never do, then turn away from God.

The issue is that if people continue to put forth such falsehood they are doing the very opposite of what they are instructed to do which is bring people to Christ, not drive them away. Today close to 75% of all "Christians" entering into college turn away from God...why? becasue of this "new age" view of God. If we would teach these kids solid priciples of reason and logic instead of shaky emotional lies, they would be able to stave off the lies they are taught in college that turn them away from God. NUMEROUS examples show that this is true.

I believe you are mistaken in why those "Kids" turn away from God away from home. The reason is their Faith is not grounded in the first place, they are merely surviving on Inherited faith and youth group energy and in some cases peer pressure. Once away from home, they act our the same way most of us did. In addition, many churches are only teaching "feel good" Christianity and not teaching discipleship or study.
If the Church were to teach discipleship it would teach alot on hearing God, hearing the Holy spirit and examining ourselves against the light of the gospel.
(On reading your post it appears as if we partially agree on the above point. I hesitate to use the word New Age and God in the same sentence, but certainly "unbiblical" and "unjust" would come to mind.)
The world is getting preached a God that is loving and kind, but not righteous and pure. The Israelites had to get really clean just so they cpould be in close proximity to God and even then he threatened them with Death if they so much as touched Mt. Sinai.

I also disagree with your idea of predestination. You certainly can go contrary to God's will. The fact that he is aware you will and does not intervene to stop you is not evidence of his sovereignty, it's evidence of our rebellious nature.
Many people believe they are following God's will when they are not. God allows it to happen because he is God and his will will be done whatever we choose.
I understand that my theology is different than yours.
If people are waiting for a Big God voice, then Yes they will probably never hear that, but God speaks to us all the time through the Holy Spirit.
If people are coming to the Church to get to a point where they hear the God voice and then are disappointed when they don't, I think they are missing the part about getting to know God through his word.
Take part in a 20 day fast, they'll probably have plenty of conversations with the Lord.