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james516
Oct 11th 2008, 03:17 PM
Warm greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I wanted to comment on my view of the coming of the Lord.I was taught to believe that Jesus would return before the greatest Tribulation this world has or ever will see to Rapture the saved and then the Anti-Christ would appear and people would go through hell on earth.

I have always had a problem with this view.I decided to do some research on this view and that research and what saith the Scripture has put me in the position to accept that the Church will indeed go through the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation on a unknown day and hour our Lord will return.

I dont find in the Scriptures two second comings of the Lord and I dont find two first resurrections of the saints to meet the Lord in the air and after reading .

{2nd Peter 1:20}Knowing this first,that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

The Rapture is prophecy we know well and is of no private interpretation.

To be honest as a Bible student,the dispensational view of the pre-trib rapture kept me frustrated until I was liberated to understand that the Scriptures are not that complicated as I thought they were.

My view is that for me to continue to accept the pre-trib view I would be violating 2nd Peter 1:20.

Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.

My research into when the pre-trib dispensational view was introduced into the Christian faith goes back to Edward Irving a Roman Catholic as far back as 1812.It was not accepted very well when John Nelson Darby in the 1830`s introduced it and in his writings show this, and the C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin pushed the idea until it was accepted.

The Anti-Catholics of the pre-1800 reformation viewed the Roman Catholic church as a Anti-Christ system and a future Pope as satan in the flesh.The Roman Catholic system invented as a counter attack on the blessed reformation to remove the RC Church from the scope of prophecy.History proves this and can be found in most libraries some well hidden.


In the 1800`s history shows,that many unpopular Ideas were birthed,like dispensationalism`s pre-trib and Jehovah witnesses so-called,seventh day Adventism,the Campbellite movement,the Armstrong Movement ect.These views in the beginning most are not aware of were called heretics.Most believe all but pre-trib dispensationalism is the only Biblical view which I find that needs to be questioned by not ignoring {2nd Peter 1:20}and by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Most accept since the word Church is not mentioned in Revelation 4:2 until the last Amen accept the Church is missing in the Tribulation so therefore has been raptured out.Well if we applied this theory to the Word Rapture or Trinity we would have to apply this reasoning also to our Triune God and our gathering to meet Him in the air when He returns,which I and many others see as post tribulation rapture.Nevertheless Scripture does indeed teach the Trinity and the Rapture and the Church in the great Tribulation.

I have heard many say they believe the pre-trib view because St Paul taught it ect.I would have to say St Paul nor Jesus taught no such of a thing and Scriptures well prove it.

For those wanting to disagree your disagreement is welcome,but the question must be asked,how many 1st resurrections is coming one or two?

God bless you.

My view is Church get ready.

In Christ.

Brother Steven.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 11th 2008, 03:37 PM
I wanted to comment on my view of the coming of the Lord.I was taught to believe that Jesus would return before the greatest Tribulation this world has or ever will see to Rapture the saved and then the Anti-Christ would appear and people would go through hell on earth. OK, that tells us what your teacher(s) believes, but have you come to your own conclusion on the matter?
I have always had a problem with this view. I decided to do some research on this view and that research and what saith the Scripture has put me in the position to accept that the Church will indeed go through the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation on a unknown day and hour our Lord will return.Ah, you’re already ahead of me, good for you. :thumbsup:
I dont find in the Scriptures two second comings of the Lord and I dont find two first resurrections of the saints to meet the Lord in the air and after reading. I agree completely.
{2nd Peter 1:20}Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

The Rapture is prophecy we know well and is of no private interpretation.

To be honest as a Bible student,the dispensational view of the pre-trib rapture kept me frustrated until I was liberated to understand that the Scriptures are not that complicated as I thought they were. I’m liking this more and more. :yes:
My view is that for me to continue to accept the pre-trib view I would be violating 2nd Peter 1:20.

Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.

My research into when the pre-trib dispensational view was introduced into the Christian faith goes back to Edward Irving a Roman Catholic as far back as 1812.It was not accepted very well when John Nelson Darby in the 1830`s introduced it and in his writings show this, and the C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin pushed the idea until it was accepted.That’s very similar to what my research has uncovered as well. :yes:
The Anti-Catholics of the pre-1800 reformation viewed the Roman Catholic church as a Anti-Christ system and a future Pope as satan in the flesh.The Roman Catholic system invented as a counter attack on the blessed reformation to remove the RC Church from the scope of prophecy.History proves this and can be found in most libraries some well hidden. The Catholic Church certainly does have some mistaken teachings in their doctrines, but they are not the Antichrist. The Antichrist will come from Islam.
In the 1800`s history shows,that many unpopular Ideas were birthed,like dispensationalism`s pre-trib and Jehovah witnesses so-called,seventh day Adventism,the Campbellite movement,the Armstrong Movement ect.These views in the beginning most are not aware of were called heretics.Most believe all but pre-trib dispensationalism is the only Biblical view which I find that needs to be questioned by not ignoring {2nd Peter 1:20}and by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Most accept since the word Church is not mentioned in Revelation 4:2 until the last Amen accept the Church is missing in the Tribulation so therefore has been raptured out. Even though that’s only an argument from silence, and the word “saints” does appear numerous times in the intervening chapters.
Well if we applied this theory to the Word Rapture or Trinity we would have to apply this reasoning also to our Triune God and our gathering to meet Him in the air when He returns,which I and many others see as post tribulation rapture.Nevertheless Scripture does indeed teach the Trinity and the Rapture and the Church in the great Tribulation. Agreed.
I have heard many say they believe the pre-trib view because St Paul taught it ect. I would have to say St Paul nor Jesus taught no such of a thing and Scriptures well prove it.Yeah, but the problem is getting people to have an open mind and to let the Bible outyell the things they’ve been filling their minds with for the last umpteen years from people like Grant Jeffrey, Hal Lindsey, and Tim LaHaye.
For those wanting to disagree your disagreement is welcome,but the question must be asked,how many 1st resurrections is coming one or two?No disagreements here, brother. :thumbsup:

crush
Oct 11th 2008, 03:43 PM
Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.


This phenomenon also happens with "not so great" bible scholars like myself LOL. Nice post Steven.

james516
Oct 11th 2008, 03:54 PM
OK, that tells us what your teacher(s) believes, but have you come to your own conclusion on the matter?Ah, you’re already ahead of me, good for you. :thumbsup:I agree completely.I’m liking this more and more. :yes:That’s very similar to what my research has uncovered as well. :yes:The Catholic Church certainly does have some mistaken teachings in their doctrines, but they are not the Antichrist. The Antichrist will come from Islam.Even though that’s only an argument from silence, and the word “saints” does appear numerous times in the intervening chapters.Agreed.Yeah, but the problem is getting people to have an open mind and to let the Bible outyell the things they’ve been filling their minds with for the last umpteen years from people like Grant Jeffrey, Hal Lindsey, and Tim LaHaye.No disagreements here, brother. :thumbsup:


Some believe Islam will produce the Anti-Christ.Ever heard of the black pope {not refering to race}You see the black pope is the most powerful man in the world and what if the Vatican took control of the Temple mount?

If the vatican conspiracy does indeed happen,then a pope could very well set in the rebuilt Temple and claim to be God.The secret of secret societies like Roman Catholic Jesuits,Masons,Skull and Bones ect,are involved in a global takeover in the making for years whom the vatican is behind to take full control of Jerusalem and if the pope is out of the scope of prophecy the plan from years gone has deceived the people and has worked as planned.

All I know whether it is a Islamic Fanatic or a Pope it will still be satan in human flesh.I believe while the Church is waiting on the Rapture and when Anti-Christ appears some will accept the mark of the beast not believing it is the real damnable mark or the real Anti-Christ.

God bless you all.

Brother Steven.

james516
Oct 11th 2008, 03:59 PM
This phenomenon also happens with "not so great" bible scholars like myself LOL. Nice post Steven.


Crush I was in a frantic state of mind trying to arrange the pre-trib doctrine.Take Jesus the Word of Truth God`s Word for what it says,not what some bible scholar was taught to teach you it says.

Thank you and God bless.

In Christ.

Brother Steven.

ross3421
Oct 12th 2008, 06:13 AM
Warm greetings in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I wanted to comment on my view of the coming of the Lord.I was taught to believe that Jesus would return before the greatest Tribulation this world has or ever will see to Rapture the saved and then the Anti-Christ would appear and people would go through hell on earth.

I have always had a problem with this view.I decided to do some research on this view and that research and what saith the Scripture has put me in the position to accept that the Church will indeed go through the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation on a unknown day and hour our Lord will return.

I dont find in the Scriptures two second comings of the Lord and I dont find two first resurrections of the saints to meet the Lord in the air and after reading .

{2nd Peter 1:20}Knowing this first,that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

The Rapture is prophecy we know well and is of no private interpretation.

To be honest as a Bible student,the dispensational view of the pre-trib rapture kept me frustrated until I was liberated to understand that the Scriptures are not that complicated as I thought they were.

My view is that for me to continue to accept the pre-trib view I would be violating 2nd Peter 1:20.

Many great Bible scholars in the past accepted the pre-trib for years and many had to divorce the pre-trib Idea after their exhaustive studies and research.

My research into when the pre-trib dispensational view was introduced into the Christian faith goes back to Edward Irving a Roman Catholic as far back as 1812.It was not accepted very well when John Nelson Darby in the 1830`s introduced it and in his writings show this, and the C.I.Scofield and Clarence Larkin pushed the idea until it was accepted.

The Anti-Catholics of the pre-1800 reformation viewed the Roman Catholic church as a Anti-Christ system and a future Pope as satan in the flesh.The Roman Catholic system invented as a counter attack on the blessed reformation to remove the RC Church from the scope of prophecy.History proves this and can be found in most libraries some well hidden.


In the 1800`s history shows,that many unpopular Ideas were birthed,like dispensationalism`s pre-trib and Jehovah witnesses so-called,seventh day Adventism,the Campbellite movement,the Armstrong Movement ect.These views in the beginning most are not aware of were called heretics.Most believe all but pre-trib dispensationalism is the only Biblical view which I find that needs to be questioned by not ignoring {2nd Peter 1:20}and by rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Most accept since the word Church is not mentioned in Revelation 4:2 until the last Amen accept the Church is missing in the Tribulation so therefore has been raptured out.Well if we applied this theory to the Word Rapture or Trinity we would have to apply this reasoning also to our Triune God and our gathering to meet Him in the air when He returns,which I and many others see as post tribulation rapture.Nevertheless Scripture does indeed teach the Trinity and the Rapture and the Church in the great Tribulation.

I have heard many say they believe the pre-trib view because St Paul taught it ect.I would have to say St Paul nor Jesus taught no such of a thing and Scriptures well prove it.

For those wanting to disagree your disagreement is welcome,but the question must be asked,how many 1st resurrections is coming one or two?

God bless you.

My view is Church get ready.

In Christ.

Brother Steven.


For the dead in Christ shall rise first............amen.

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 12th 2008, 07:06 AM
what about http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev.%203:10&version=31 Rev 3:10?

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 10:07 AM
Dear James 5:16 - As you probably realize, there are two resurrections; one of the righteous dead and one of the unrighteous dead. All who are ever saved are part of the first resurrection, and on such the second death hath no power. Rev. 20:4-6.

Next we must ask where Jesus is ruling from for a thousand years. In heaven or physically on the earth? When we come to Revelation there are different viewpoints from where John is shown things. The first viewpoint was in Revelation 1:10 when John was caught in spirit to the end of the Church Age or the Lord's day where he heard a voice behind him and he looks back over this present time we're in. The second vision viewpoint was in Revelation 4:1-2 when there was the door opened in heaven and John was caught up to heaven and he saw this great scene in the throne room. If you will read through this portion of scripture from Chapter 4 of Revelation you will see some in heaven prior to that coming of Jesus that all the world will see. He came as a thief to some prior to coming where all the tribes of the earth shall see Him at the beginning of the millennium in Matthew 24:30. What are they doing and how did they get there?

dworthington
Oct 12th 2008, 12:43 PM
I am a pre-trib believer. It is my opinion that the rapture is a spearate event from the second coming. Being caught up to the clouds is diffeant then Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives.

ross3421
Oct 12th 2008, 02:40 PM
I am a pre-trib believer. It is my opinion that the rapture is a separate event from the second coming. Being caught up to the clouds is different then Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives.

Question......when are those dead in Christ resurrected?

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 03:24 PM
I am a pre-trib believer. It is my opinion that the rapture is a spearate event from the second coming. Being caught up to the clouds is diffeant then Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives.


I am very aware of only two resurrections.They are seperated by 1000 years and the wicked wil be judged and damned to the lake of fire this is the second death resurrection {i.e.Great White Throne Rev 20:11-15}

What thus saith the Scripture concerning the 1st and only resurrection of the saved after the Tribulation?

Brother know this first that no prophecy is of any private interpretation.{2nd Peter 1:20}

Jesus disciples wanted to know the sign of his coming and the end of the world.First off they ask Him what would happen before His return.

Matt 24:3

[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Ok what must happen before the sign of His coming appears.


Matt 24:4

[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Since history shows the pre-trib rapture was not taught nor believed prior to 1812 and many pre-trib bible scholars either are not aware of this or they hide this fact themselves, I consider it a end time deception.The late Corrie Ten Boom who experienced the Holocaust wrote a letter in 1974 she believed the pre-trib doctrine was one that Jesus warned about.

Matt 24:15

[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


I would have to say, Matt 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples ,what "they would see for themselves".One would have to read, a private pre-trib interpretation into this verse, to say Christ disciples did not understand that Jesus meaning really was that the Saved, would not see this happen and they would be raptured before it would happen.No Jesus was was painting a future picture that the saved would witness this in the future.

Matt 24:21

[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Yes the Tribulation is coming and Jesus testimony is what will happen "before the sign of His coming" as the Scriptures following will show.


Matt 24:27



[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Nothing complicated about this here.


Matt 24:29


[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What follows after the Tribulation is the sign of His coming.

Matt 24:30

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Ok we see here Jesus return is after the Tribulation and the Rapture is after the Tribulation as Matt 24:31 will show.Many try to deny the Rapture is not taught in Matt 24th chapter because it would put the Rapture post Trib.The following verse is the Saved being Raptured after the Trib no doubt.Again to deny this is again in violation of {2nd Peter 1:20}


Matt 24:31

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we have the gathering of the elect {i.e.post trib}the angels,the sounding of the "Trumpet" clearly after the Tribulation.These are the very same things in the so-called Pre-Trib verses immediately after the Tribulation at the ending of the Tribulation which is a unknown day and hour.

The Rapture is not 7 years before the last day as will be shown.


Ok we have had brother Matthews Testimony now we will let brother Mark Testify.

{Deuteronomy 19:15 b}

:at the mouth of two witnesses,or at the mouth of three witnesses,shall the matter be established.

The Court now calls Brother Mark to the witnesses stand as a witnesses for the post trib truth your honourable Jesus.

Mark 13:4

[4] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


Let the truth be told.

Mark 13:15

[5] And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

Lets see a 196 year old pre-trib doctrine,is this really what thus saith the Scriptures?

Could a pre-trib rapture doctrine be a end time deception that Jesus Christ our God warned of?

Brother Matthew has witnessed to a post Trib view.Brother Mark what saith the Holy Spirit by your testimony?


Brother Mark,what did Jesus say His beloved saints would see on one future day?

Mark 13:14

[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

Our beloved Saviour was telling the Saints what to expect one future day as if they would be there themselves and not to be deceived about it as brother Mark testifies.



Mark 13:19,20

[19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


The elect is the Church that will no doubt go through the Tribulation.Do a search you will find the elect,the saints all refer to the Church and dont be deceived about it.


Mark 13:24,25,26,27.




24] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Saints,after the Tribulation v24 will Jesus return v26 for the elect {i.e.the Church}v27.Dont be deceived about it.


Brother Mark you may step down.We now call Brother Paul to the witness stand your honourable Lord Jesus Christ.



{1st Cor 15:51,52}

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This was a mystery to the Corinthian Church but now St Paul reveals the mystery.The trumpet shall sound the same trumpet as {Matt 24:31}that sounds immediately after the tribulation {Matt 24:29}.

{1st Thess 4:13,14,15,16,17,18}


[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here we have in verse 16 "A Shout" the Trump {i.e.trumpet}sounding at the return of our blessed Saviour from heaven.It is a comfort to know that our Lord will return after great Tribulation.Again be not deceived.

{2Thes.2:1,2,3,4,5}

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



Verse one is the Church`s gathering to Christ as we find in {Matt 24:31}same gathering,same trumpet {i.e.7th and last trumpet}the elect is the Church gathered {i.e.raptured}immediately after the tribulation.ST Paul clearly did not want the Thessalonians to be confused about the return of the Lord {v1}and verse 3 says what will happen before the coming of the Lord and that will be a falling away and the manof sin be revealed.Saints wake up St Paul says that day {i.e.the coming of Christ}will not happen until the man of sin take stage and this will be during the Tribulation,when he claims to be God in the temple.

St Paul you may step down.No we call St John to the witness stand your Honourable Lord Jesus Christ.


When Lazarus died Martha was not confused about the resurrection.Pre-Trib doctrine is confused about the last day.If I say I will see you friday,it will not be 7 years before friday.The last day means just that.When things are repeated over and over close together it is pretty important for you to realize it means what it says.

These verses pertain to when the 1st Resurrection will take place and not 7 years before.Last day means last day {i.e.after the tribulation}

John 6:39 At the last day.

John 6:40 At the last day.

John 6:44 At the last day.

John 6:54 At the last day.

John 11:24 At the last day.

Brother John you may step down.Your honourable Lord Jesus Christ we now call St Luke to the stand.

Brother Luke can you testify as to what will happen when our blessed Saviour returns at the last day?

{Acts 1:11}

this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

You may step down brother Luke.We now call John the Revelator,Your honourable Lord Jesus Christ.

Brother John the Revelator,what is your testimony to the coming of the Lord at the last day at the 1st resurrection?

{Revelation 1:7}

[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



Brother John could you give us a second testimony of what happens after the tribulation at the first resurrection?

Brother John,there are those that say there will be a pre-tribulation rapture and the Church will escape at the 1st resurrection of the dead and the living will join the Lord in the air before this hell on earth begins.Could you please get this straight Brother John?

{Revelation 20:4-6}



[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Brother John you may step down.Your honourable Lord Jesus Christ we establish our case on Your Word in the mouth of two or three witnesses.

Saints of God be not deceived the pre-trib will not happen and we must prepare our hearts with the Wordof God and our testimony,that is how we will overcome the coming tribulation under the coming persecution of the Church under the short reign of the Anti-Christ.Look in Revelation 4-6 the ones killed in the Tribulation under the Anti-Christ are in the 1st resurrection and that puts the Church in it.Be Not Deceived.I believe many while waiting on the Lord to pre-trib rapture them could be in danger of taking the mark that will damn the soul to the lake of fire.I praise God I am aware of what thus saith the Scripture.The pre-trib no-doubt paints a picture of two 1st resurrections which is not biblical.Period.

Revelation 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,and by the word of their testimony,and they loved not their lives UNTO THE DEATH.

God help us.


Brother in Christ.

Steven.

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 06:52 PM
Dear Brother James 5:16, I would like to ask questions of your conclusion item by item if you dont't mind. If you do mind I'll ask no more.

Quoting James 5:16 - I would have to say, Matt 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples, what "they would see for themselves". One would have to read, a private pre-trib interpretation into this verse, to say Christ disciples did not understand that Jesus meaning really was that the Saved, would not see this happen and they would be raptured before it would happen. No Jesus was painting a future picture that the saved would witness this in the future.

Question - First of all the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place in the middle of the tribulation according to Daniel 9:27, and you state that the disciples themselves would see these things for themselves; and they are to see great tribulation, and then have been dead for over 1900 years by this time. If they were not to be resurrected until after the tribulation, how do they see it?

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 07:06 PM
Dear Brother James 5:16, I would like to ask questions of your conclusion item by item if you dont't mind. If you do mind I'll ask no more.

Quoting James 5:16 - I would have to say, Matt 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples, what "they would see for themselves". One would have to read, a private pre-trib interpretation into this verse, to say Christ disciples did not understand that Jesus meaning really was that the Saved, would not see this happen and they would be raptured before it would happen. No Jesus was painting a future picture that the saved would witness this in the future.

Question - First of all the abomination of desolation stands in the holy place in the middle of the tribulation according to Daniel 9:27, and you state that the disciples themselves would see these things for themselves; and they are to see great tribulation, and then have been dead for over 1900 years by this time. If they were not to be resurrected until after the tribulation, how do they see it?



Thank you for the question.


Christ's words in the Olivet Discourse were addressed to first century believers in a near/far prophecy. The near (and partial) fulfillment was in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem under the Roman general, Titus. The ultimate fulfillment will be at the "end of the age" when the sign of the end of the age, the extinguishing of the cosmic lights (Matt. 24:29; Mark 13:24; Luke 21:11, 25; Rev. 6:12-13), will be witnessed by the entire world followed immediately with the sign of the coming of the Son of Man to rapture His own. This was the question the disciples were asking Christ about that prompted the discourse in the first place. Since Matthew's account of Christ's end-time instruction parallels that of Luke and Mark, and that it is evident in those accounts that Christ is talking to His disciples, we can and should conclude that the Olivet Discourse is intended for the church, believers in Christ.

God bless.

Steven.

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 08:13 PM
Dear Brother Steven, the statement Jesus made in Matthew 24:2 referred partially to the happenings in 71 AD I believe, but that didn't cover the questions the disciples asked.

1 - When shall these things be? Well in part that did happen in 71 AD, but they were asking of end times, and whatever type of temple will be there will also be absolutely destroyed. The disciples didn't understand the Church Age was in here; it was hidden from them, and they expected it to happen right away.

2 - What shall the sign of thy coming? Jesus goes on to say deception is the signs; antichrists, wars, false prophets, etc. and it is talking about the coming of the Son of man.

3- And of the end of the world? Of course this is the end of that particular age being described in Matthew Chapter 24 as we see in Matthew 24:34 we read "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." We know that all of Matthew Chapter 24 was not completed in the disciple's day, so they refer to the days of the great tribulation unless you are Preterist.

Thank you in Jesus' name

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 08:28 PM
Well, bro Steven, all I have to say is....
whatever crush, asstrongashe (luke e leven), and all of the other post-tribbers have said.

And by the way, welcome to the board. Because of your position, you will be tried by Amils, pre-tribbers, and Romulus, whose beliefs I am not allowed to say. lol. Enjoy!

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 08:53 PM
Dear Brother Steven, the statement Jesus made in Matthew 24:2 referred partially to the happenings in 71 AD I believe, but that didn't cover the questions the disciples asked.

Larry
1 - When shall these things be? Well in part that did happen in 71 AD, but they were asking of end times, and whatever type of temple will be there will also be absolutely destroyed. The disciples didn't understand the Church Age was in here; it was hidden from them, and they expected it to happen right away.


Steven.

That is where pre-tribbers are confused,reading into the Church {i.e.the elect} is not mentioned in Matthew 24.This thinking ignores {2nd Peter 1:20}the elect is the Church.Pre Tribbers try to seperate the Church from Israel {i.e,fleshly Israel}.Pre Trib thinking,believes there is one plan for Israel and another for the Church.Some even go so far as to say,that the book of James and Hebrews was not meant for the Church.No God has only one plan and that is through His Church.John Hagee has went so far with this thinking,that he believes the Jews can be saved without Christ.What heresy.


Larry

2 - What shall the sign of thy coming? Jesus goes on to say deception is the signs; antichrists, wars, false prophets, etc. and it is talking about the coming of the Son of man.


Steven.

What saith the Scriptures?

The pre-trib teaching, largely accepted, that there is a difference between Christ coming as "The Son of man" and coming as "Lord." That means that there are two second comings! First they say He is coming for His people and then with His people. As I searched the Scriptures in relation to that doctrine I found in the study of the following words in relation to the Lord’s coming in the Greek text that: (l) Parousia stands for "Coming," "Personal Presence" or "Arrival," as in Matthew 24. (2) Epiphaneia stands for "Manifestation" or "Appearing," as in Titus 2:13:
"Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"; and 2 Timothy 4:8: "Henceforth, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day; and not to me only, but unto all them that love His appearing." (3) Apocalypse stands for "Unveiling," "Revelation," or "The removal of all that conceals." All these words refer to one and the same "Coining," one and the same event.Again {2nd Peter 1:20}.


Larry

3- And of the end of the world? Of course this is the end of that particular age being described in Matthew Chapter 24 as we see in Matthew 24:34 we read "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." We know that all of Matthew Chapter 24 was not completed in the disciple's day, so they refer to the days of the great tribulation unless you are Preterist.



Steven.

No there are things partially fulfilled as history shows and things to come as thus saith the Scripture.I call it partial historist and partial futurist.


Larry

Thank you in Jesus' name




Steven.

You are quite welcome.

Steven.

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 09:57 PM
Quoting Larry - When shall these things be? Well in part that did happen in 71 AD, but they were asking of end times, and whatever type of temple will be there will also be absolutely destroyed. The disciples didn't understand the Church Age was in here; it was hidden from them, and they expected it to happen right away.

Quoting Steven. -That is where pre-tribbers are confused,reading into the Church {i.e.the elect} is not mentioned in Matthew 24.This thinking ignores {2nd Peter 1:20}the elect is the Church.Pre Tribbers try to seperate the Church from Israel {i.e,fleshly Israel}.Pre Trib thinking,believes there is one plan for Israel and another for the Church.Some even go so far as to say,that the book of James and Hebrews was not meant for the Church.No God has only one plan and that is through His Church.John Hagee has went so far with this thinking,that he believes the Jews can be saved without Christ.What heresy.

Response - I do not believe I stated that the Church was mentioned in Matthew, but that the disciples was not aware of its coming. Is there a difference is God's dealing with the Gentile and Israel? In Acts 13:46 we read "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." The disciples were unaware of this. I agree with you that all have to be saved through belief in Christ.

Since you seem to believe there is no difference in believers, how are the 144,000 all of Israel? Who is the nation born in a day of Isaiah 66:8? Who are the woman of Revelation 12:5-6 that is given a place prepared of God? Are all believers a part of that, and thus there are no more believers to suffer through the tribulation which would include all those beheaded?

I do not know who you have been dealing with, but I have never heard a Christian say they don't believe certain books should be excluded from the Bible with the exception of the Apocrypha. I am not a true pre-tribber only, but my understanding is that "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel."

All believers are one in Christ

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:19 PM
Lets see what thus saith the Scriptures concerning who are the Hebrews {i.e.The Israel of God}?Is there really a difference?






WHO ARE THE HEBREWS?

Exodus 3:15-18

The Israel of God





Every promise of God in Holy Scripture, every covenant blessing is made to one race, only one. Every prophecy in the Book of God concerns the welfare of one nation, only one. And I assure you that few people in this world have a clue who that race and that nation is. This will come as a shock to many, but it needs to be shouted from the housetop: — God is not a Jew, an American, a Democrat, or even a Republican.



There is only one nation in which the God of Glory is interested, only one nations whose interests are his interests, and that nation is “The Israel of God” (Gal. 6:14), “the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood” (Acts 20:28). Read 1 Peter 1:9-10. Here the Holy Spirit clearly identifies that race and nation upon which the very heart of the triune God is fixed and has been fixed from eternity.



(1 Peter 2:9-10) “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are
now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now
have obtained mercy.”



Let’s read Exodus 3:15-18 .



(Exodus 3:15-18) “And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt
thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers,
the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath
sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial
unto all generations. (16) Go, and gather the elders of Israel
together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the
God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt: (17) And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey. (18) And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.”



IMPORTANT QUESTION



In verse 18, the Lord our God, the Lord Jesus Christ, describes himself as “JEHOVAH God of the Hebrews.” Having identified himself as distinctly and peculiarly “the LORD God of the Hebrews,” and “the LORD God of the Hebrews,” alone, not the LORD God of the Egyptian, but “the LORD God of the Hebrews.” He was God over the Egyptians’, just as he is God over all, but he is distinctly and peculiarly “the LORD God of the Hebrews,” only of the Hebrews. So I want to know, who those people are. Don’t you? I want to be found among those people. Don’t you?



Who are the Hebrews? That is the question I want to answer in this
message. The question is a matter of great importance because everything in the Word of God is connected with the fact that the God of Glory is distinctly “the LORD God of the Hebrews.” Until we know who the Hebrews are we cannot understand what God’s promises to them are and cannot understand the wondrous works of his providence in performing his promises.



This question, is very relevant to our lives socially and politically, as well as spiritually, because there is a huge effort in our day, particularly in the United States and to a lesser degree in England, to convince people that the political state of Israel has a divine right to that piece of ground referred to as “the Holy Land” at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea. This obsession with Israel’s right to “the Holy Land” has its roots in the heresies of dispensational theology, made popular by the Scofield Reference Bible.

This is the one place where political liberals and the political conservatives are commonly in agreement.



Let me give you an example. — Back in October 1994, President Bill Clinton, in a speech before the Israeli Knesset, declared, — “It is God’s will that Israel, the Biblical home of the people of Israel, continue forever and ever.” He concluded his speech saying, “Your journey is our journey, and America will stand with you now and always.” Mr. Clinton prefaced those statements by citing the words of his pastor back in Arkansas to him. His pastor told him, “If you abandon Israel, God will never forgive you.”



I don’t think anyone would accuse Mr. Clinton of being a conservative, or of being terribly concerned about the teachings of the Bible. Yet, his political notions regarding the state of Israel are exactly the same as those promoted Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn, John Hagee, Paul Crouch, and most of the fundamentalist religious world. Both our nation’s political leaders and our nation’s religious leaders, who are at odds on most issues, believe that the Jewish nation is the centerpiece of God’s purpose and the apple of his
eye.



Multitudes read the Bible with that idea fixed in their minds. Thinking that the Jewish nation is the centerpiece of God’s purpose and the apple of his eye, when they read of God’s covenant promises and the prophecies of the Scriptures relating to Israel, they ignorantly presume that those promises and prophecies must have reference to the Jewish state. Nothing could be further from the truth.

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:20 PM
WHO ARE THEY?



So I want you to carefully follow me through the Word of God, as I try to show you the answer to this question, — Who are the Hebrews?



“Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever?” — When we hear Spirit of God declare, “he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh” (Rom. 2:28), and “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6), we ought to immediately presume that when God speaks of himself as “the LORD God of the Hebrews
” (Ex. 3:18; 5:3; 7:16; 9:1, 13; 10:3) he is not talking about the
physical descendants of Abraham.



The first time we see the word “Hebrew” it is found in Genesis 14:13, where Abram is called “the Hebrew.” In later years the Egyptians referred to the descendants of Abraham as Hebrews (Gen. 39:14, 17; 41:12; Exo. 1:16; 2:6), as did the Philistines (1 Sam. l 4:6, 9; 13:19; 14:11; 29:3). And the Israelites themselves used this term, “Hebrews,” to distinguish themselves from all other people (Gen. 40:15; Exo. 1:19; 2:7; 3:18; 5:3; 7:16; 9:1, 13; 10:3; Jonah 1:9; 2 Cor. 11:22). The word “Hebrew” is used synonymously with both Israelite and Jew.

I cannot find anyone who can give a definite or specific meaning to the word translated “Hebrew” in the Scriptures. but it conveys the idea of “one from beyond,” or “one who passes over,” or “one who lives beyond.” That is a pretty good description of God’s people. Don’t you think? The child of God in this world is…

• One from beyond.
• One who passes over.
• One who lives beyond.





If you read the Scriptures with honesty, you simply cannot question the fact Abraham’s physical descendants are not now and never have been the centerpiece of God’s purpose and the apple of his eye. When the Lord Jesus Christ declares himself to the distinctly and peculiarly “the LORD God of the Hebrews,” he is talking about Abraham’s spiritual descendants. The Word of God states this fact clearly, identifying Abraham’s seed and his children as God’s elect, those people scattered throughout the world, both Jew and
Gentile “the LORD God of the Hebrews” is determined to save, those to whom he gives the blessing of Abraham, the gift of life and faith in Christ by his Spirit (Gal. 3:7-9).



(Galatians 3:7-9) “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith,
the same are the children of Abraham. (8) And the scripture,
foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,
preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all
nations be blessed. (9) So then they which be of faith are blessed
with faithful Abraham.”



Abraham’s physical descendants who do not trust in Christ have the devil, not Abraham, for their father (John 8:37-44). “They which are of faith,” and no one else, “the same are the children of Abraham,” whom the Holy Spirit calls “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16).

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:21 PM
ABRAHAM’S CHILDREN




The true Israel of God are not the natural descendants of Abraham,but the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Abraham was the father of the nation from whom Christ sprang, who is the Author and Finisher of our faith; and all of God’s children are children of faith. As the Holy Spirit puts it in Philippians 3:3, “we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”



The Word of God shows this to us with unmistakable clarity. The natural, physical seed of Abraham, Jews, or Israelites, after the flesh, are not the people of God by right of their physical birth. It is true that God made definite promises to the physical seed of Abraham, which were all physically fulfilled in the days of Joshua (Joshua 21:43-45; 23:14-15), but fulfilled upon condition of obedience. Israel, after the flesh, has denied Christ and has been judged by God for having done so (Matt. 22:1-14;
23:37-38).



Yet, throughout the Old Testament, God’s prophets continually spoke of God’s salvation of his elect in this Gospel day in connection with gather his people to their land. Why? Read any one of those prophetic promises of grace, read them all, and you will see clearly that they are referring to the complete reconciliation of God’s elect to him in Christ, which was portrayed and typified by Israel taking possession of Canaan in the days of Joshua.



Paul clearly asserts that Israel after the flesh is not the true Israel (Rom. 2:28-29; 9:4-7). God has cut off the natural seed in order to bring in the greater spiritual seed (Rom. 11:22, 25-36). “The Israel of God” is that holy nation and royal priesthood of saved sinners who live by the rule of the gospel (Gal. 6:14-16), “who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.”



ABRAHAM’S FAITH



God the Holy Spirit holds Abraham before us as “the father of all them that believe,” because we see in Abraham certain marks, certain characteristics by which all God’s elect are identified in this world. In Galatians 3:6 and 7 Paul gives us two divinely inspired statements concerning Abraham’s faith, which destroy all carnal hope, both for the Jews and for Gentiles who hope for righteousness upon the basis of their works.




First, Paul asserts that Abraham was justified by faith, apart from any works of his own. . “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness” (v. 6). Abraham’s justification preceded his circumcision by many years (Gen. 15:6; 16:16; 17:24; Rom. 4:9-12). He believed God. The Object of his faith was God, especially the Son of God, who is the Word of God (Gen. 15:1, 6). He was Abraham’s Shield (Eph. 6:16) and his Reward (1 Cor. 1:30). Abraham trusted Christ. It was Christ’s obedience,
the Object of Abraham’s faith that was imputed unto him for righteousness, not his act of faith (Compare Rom. 4:22-25; John 8:56). His faith was the channel through which he received the blessing of justification, the righteousness of Christ.



Then, the Apostle declares, “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham” (v. 7). All who, like Abraham, believe God are justified by faith; and they are the children of Abraham. Physical lineage from Abraham guaranteed no spiritual blessing to Jews (Matt. 3:9).



(Matthew 3:5-9) “Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea,
and all the region round about Jordan, (6) And were baptized of him
in Jordan, confessing their sins. (7) But when he saw many of the
Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: (9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”



And being the physical descendants of godly (believing) parents secures no spiritual blessing to any today (John 1:11-13).



(John 1:11-13) “He came unto his own, and his own received him
not. (12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”



All spiritual blessings (all the blessings of grace, salvation, and eternal life) are in Christ and come to sinners by grace alone. All who are of faith (all who trust Christ) have right to all the promises, which God made to Abraham.

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:22 PM
THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO ABRAHAM



The Holy Spirit tells us plainly that the gospel was preached to Abraham (Gal. 3:8-9). . “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.” For some strange reason, many are terribly uncomfortable with that fact. They are uncomfortable with it because they do not know the gospel. They vainly imagine that God saved people in a different way and by a different gospel in the Old Testament than he does today. But that is not the case.



It was never God’s purpose to limit his church and kingdom to the physical nation of Israel, but to use them as a means of saving his elect among the Gentiles (Matt. 8:11-12). This he determined before the world began, and, therefore, before Abraham was called to life and faith in Christ by the gospel, by the revelation of Christ in the gospel. Yes, Abraham saw Christ, knew Christ, and trusted Christ, just as believers do today.



I do not mean to suggest that Abraham had the full revelation of Christ that is given with the completion of Holy Scripture. But I do mean to assert that Abraham believed on the Son of God as he is revealed in the gospel. Our Savior himself declared, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad” (John 8:56).

• God promised Abraham that the Seed would be from his loins, who would be the Messiah, in and by whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed.
• Abraham believed in Christ, his Messiah-Redeemer. God promised him that the Messianic blessings were to be worldwide (Matt. 28:19-20; 1 John 2:2), that all the nations of the earth would be blessed in and by him .





In Galatians 3:9 Paul was inspired of God to to conclude, — “So then, they which are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.” All who believe God, upon the hearing of the Gospel, are the sons of Abraham; hence, they are blessed with him. What Paul is here teaching is the important truth that


the church of both the Old Testament dispensation and the New is one. All believers are one in Christ.

• All of God’s people were chosen in Christ (Eph. 1:4).
• All enjoy being clothed in the righteousness of Christ.
• All are redeemed by Christ (Isa. 53; Matt. 1:21; John 3:16).
• All are his sheep, have one Shepherd, and belong to one fold (Ezek. 37:22; John 10:16; Eph. 2:14-15).
• The names of all the elect are recorded in one Book of Life (Rev. 13:8).
• All the elect are predestined to the same glory (Rom. 8:29-30).
• All partake of the glories of the heavenly Jerusalem (Rev. 21:12-14;
Matt. 8:11-12).
• And all will be perfected together (Heb. 11:40).





LIVE BY FAITH



Let’s stay here in Galatians 3 a little longer. Those who are “Hebrews” like Abraham, “people passing over,” are a people who live by faith, not by law (Gal. 3:10-12).



(Galatians 3:10-12) “For as many as are of the works of the law are
under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that
continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”



We understand the impossibility of law righteousness. Every believer does. We know that the law demands perfection we cannot perform, righteousness we cannot produce, and satisfaction we cannot give. Knowing that fact, all who are just before God, all who have been justified by his grace and have received that justification by faith in Christ, live by faith, just like Abraham did (Heb. 11:1-3). They obey God because they believe him. Read the life of Abraham in the Book of God, and learn what it is to
live by faith.



• By faith Abraham forsook his own country to seek another (Gen. 11:28-32).
• By faith Abraham forsook his family to follow Christ (Gen. 12:1; Heb.
11:8).
• By faith Abraham separated himself from Lot for the glory of God
(Gen. 13:1-13).
• By faith Abraham received a son (Gen. 17).
• By faith Abraham sacrificed his son (Gen. 22).
• By faith Abraham received his son back from the dead (Gen. 22).
• By faith Abraham sojourned through this earth seeking the city of God,
not receiving one parcel of land for himself (Gen. 13:14-18; Heb.
11:10).
• By faith Abraham died (Heb. 11:13).





If we seek to live by the law, Paul tells us plainly that we do not live by faith (v. 12). To embrace the law as a principle of life is to abandon faith, abandon grace, and abandon Christ (Gal. 5:1-4).

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:23 PM
REDEMPTION



Redeemed sinners are free from the curse and condemnation of the law. We cannot and shall not be cursed by the law. . “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree” (v. 13).



What a blessed, clear statement this is of particular, effectual
redemption! Christ’s object in redeeming us, as it is here declared, was that we might receive the blessing of Abraham, the Spirit of God, and all the gifts of grace and salvation in him by faith in Christ. . “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” (vv. 13-14).



SHALL BE SAVED



But there are multitudes who are of Abraham’s seed, Jews and Gentiles, who have not yet been called by grace, who are yet scattered among the nations of the world, of whom the Spirit of God declares, “a remnant shall be save” (Rom. 9:27) — “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace” (Rom. 11:5). When the fulness of the Gentiles has been brought in, when God has called out and saved all his elect by his omnipotent mercy, “all Israel shall be saved” (Rom. 11:26).


Just as surely as “the LORD God of the Hebrews” saved Abraham’s physical seed out of Egypt he shall save all his elect in and by Christ (Isa. 45:17).



(Isaiah 45:17) “But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an
everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world
without end.”



The prophet of God declares with absolute certainty, that there are
some people in this world who must and shall be saved. — “But Israel shall be saved in the Lord!”



“Israel shall be saved!” —Who are these people called “Israel,” who must and shall be saved? Let me once more emphasize this point. — The promise of this text does not speak of Abraham’s physical seed, his natural descendants. It is not talking about the salvation of the whole nation of Israel. We know this for two reasons:

1. If this text promises salvation to men and women on the basis of their ancestry, their race, their natural birth, then it completely contradicts the whole word of God (John 1:11-13).
2. Many of the Jews, the natural seed of Israel have already perished under the wrath of God. — (Korah, Dathan and Abiram — Judas)





“Israel” is the name that God gave to Jacob. It is a name by which God himself designates the people to whom his is gracious. Who are the people whom the Lord calls “Israel”? Who are the Hebrews of whom he is distinctly and peculiarly the LORD God?



• They are the people of God’s loving choice and sovereign election
(Ps. 135:4).


(Psalms 135:4) “For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself,
and Israel for his peculiar treasure.”






“Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom. 9:13). Esau was as much a son of Abraham physically as Jacob was, but he was not a part of Israel. Israel is the people of God’s free, eternal love and unconditional election.



• They are the people of special revelation (Gen. 28:10-17). The Lord revealed himself to Jacob at Bethel. — Christ the Ladder — The only Mediator between God and man.





(Genesis 28:10-17) “And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went
toward Haran. (11) And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried
there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. (12) And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. (13) And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; (14) And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. (15) And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. (16) And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. (17) And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”




• They are the people converted by grace (Gen. 32:24-31). — Grace conquered Jacob, forced him to acknowledge himself and surrender to Christ. Grace gave him a new name. Grace changed his life and caused him to consecrate himself to God.



• They are the people of distinct and peculiar, God-given faith in
Christ (Phil. 3:3).


(Philippians 3:3) “For we are the circumcision, which worship God
in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in
the flesh.”




• Israel is the people of God’s peculiar care (Gen. 28:15). — “I am with thee.” — “I will keep thee.” — “I will not leave thee.” — “And he blessed him” (Gen. 32:29; Eph. 1:3).





Why has the Lord God of the Hebrews sworn to save Israel? Because “he delighteth in mercy” and he is faithful to his covenant (Mic. 7:18-20).




(Micah 7:18-20) “Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth
iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his
heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth
in mercy. (19) He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us;
he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the
depths of the sea. (20) Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the
mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.”



“Israel shall be saved in the LORD!” — These words declare both the certain salvation of God’s elect and the method, or means of their salvation. — God’s elect, Israel, shall assuredly be saved. The text does not read, “Israel may be saved,” but “Israel shall be saved!” The one who said this is God Almighty, “the LORD God of the Hebrews.”!

• It is the will of God that they be saved; and his will cannot be resisted (Isa. 14:24, 26, 27; 46:10).
• They have been purchased by Christ; and what he purchased he cannot lose (1 Pet. 1:18-20).
• The Holy Spirit is the Earnest, Pledge and Seal of their salvation; and the seal of the Spirit cannot be broken (Eph. 1:18).





God declares absolutely, “Israel shall be saved!” This is an infallible fact, secured by the immutability of God himself (Mal. 3:6). Whatever may become of others, “Israel shall be saved!” No matter what difficulties or dangers lie in the way, no matter what conspiracies are hatched in hell to prevent it, the promise of God stands and cannot be nullified. “Israel shall be saved!”



Notice the next words — “In The LORD!” — God’s elect are saved, not in themselves; their destruction is in themselves! They are saved “in the Lord!” Saved because they are “in the Lord.”

• Chosen in him!
• Redeemed in him!
• Justified in him!
• Represented in him!
• Sanctified in him!
• Kept in him!






“In the Lord shall all the house of Israel be justified, and shall glory” (Isa. 45:25).

• We are saved by the merits of his blood.
• We are saved by the efficacy of his grace.
• We are saved by the power of his intercession.
• Not a word about our “freewill”!
• Not a word about our “good works”!


“Salvation is of the Lord!” — “By the grace of God I am what I am!”



“Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation!” — How sweet those words are! Lest we should limit our expectations to some temporal, earthly benefit, lest we should be slow of heart to believe God’s Word, he asserts his promise of grace in terms as strong and energetic as language can afford or imagination can conceive. “Israel shall be saved in the LORD with everlasting salvation!” This truth is confirmed in every page of Holy Scripture. God uses the richest variety of expression to assure us of
his grace and establish our faith. — Everlasting salvation is perfect,
perpetual, complete salvation. Nothing can be added to it; and nothing can be taken from it (Eccl. 3:14).



Every believer may rightfully lay claim to all that God himself can give in time and eternity in the name of Christ. — “The LORD will give grace and glory!” We shall never be disappointed of our hope in time or in eternity. The believer’s blessedness begins the moment he believes of Christ, and endures forever! The salvation that God performs is “everlasting salvation!”

• Forgiveness is everlasting!
• Justification is Everlasting!
• Adoption is everlasting!
• Acceptance is everlasting!
• Preservation is everlasting!
• There are no variables to be considered!





“Ye shall not be ashamed, nor confounded, world without end!” — Quite literally, the text reads, “Ye shall not be ashamed, nor confounded, unto the ages of eternity!” — “The Scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed” (Rom. 10:13). You who trust Christ shall never be ashamed; and you shall not be confounded. — You shall not be ashamed of Christ.


• His gospel.
• His ordinances.
• Your faith in him.
• His people.
• His sufferings.





You shall not be confounded. Your hope and faith shall not be a matter of confusion to you, and you shall never be brought into confusion.

• In life.
• In death.
• At the Bar of God.
• To all eternity.
• Romans 8: 32-39


(Isaiah 45:22) “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the
earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”



“Happy art thou, O Israel; who is like unto thee, O people saved by the LORD” (Deut. 33:29).

• You may meet with many troubles on your way to glory; but you
shall survive them!
• You may often be tossed about in the tempest; but you will not
perish!
• You may suffer the loss of all earthly comforts; but God’s Word will not be broken!
• You may fall many times; but God’s mercy is sure!



This is God’s Word to the saved. — “Israel shall be saved in the Lord with everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded, world without end!” Why? Because the Lord God declares himself to be “the LORD God of the Hebrews!”



Amen.

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 10:26 PM
James516,
While all of that is fine and good, what say you on the actual ethnic 12 tribes of Israel? Notice that in Revelation 6, they are mentioned separately from the rest of the saints, signifying that Israel is not only a word used to describe the spiritual descendents of Abraham.

In your opinion, when Lord Jesus was executed by the Jews in the first century, were they forever banned from being part of Abraham's spiritual descent? After all, if they believe in Lord Jesus, and that belief comes corporately after a series of events that persuades all of them at once, would not Israel return to being both the literal and spiritual descendents of Abraham?

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 12th 2008, 10:30 PM
what about Rev 3:10?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:10&version=31

all i ask is you answer with a few short paragraphs. lol!

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:32 PM
James516,
While all of that is fine and good, what say you on the actual ethnic 12 tribes of Israel? Notice that in Revelation 6, they are mentioned separately from the rest of the saints, signifying that Israel is not only a word used to describe the spiritual descendents of Abraham.

In your opinion, when Lord Jesus was executed by the Jews in the first century, were they forever banned from being part of Abraham's spiritual descent? After all, if they believe in Lord Jesus, and that belief comes corporately after a series of events that persuades all of them at once, would not Israel return to being both the literal and spiritual descendents of Abraham?



Fleshly Israel can be grafted back in only by accepting the redeemer they rejected.Anyone dying without Christ is lost forever.Dont fall for John Hagee`s theory because it denies the fleshly Jews eternal salvation.

Also the so-called Jews today are khazar imposters.That is a totally different topic.Can you identify a real Jew according to the flesh???

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 10:46 PM
Fleshly Israel can be grafted back in only by accepting the redeemer they rejected.Anyone dying without Christ is lost forever.Dont fall for John Hagee`s theory because it denies the fleshly Jews eternal salvation.

Also the so-called Jews today are khazar imposters.That is a totally different topic.Can you identify a real Jew according to the flesh???

Hagee? Oh, I am sorry, but you are new to this board. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Doug Mitchell, also known as the Third Hero. Part of what makes me me is that I believe NOTHING that others say concerning the Bible UNLESS they show evidence through the Bible.

There is a reason why I have asked you that question, James. The reason is because it is prophecied in both the OT and the NT that "All Israel shall be saved". I have found a passage in Zechariah 12 showing that Israel, or at least the remnant of those who survive the slaughtering at Jerusalem, will mourn over God "whom they pierced" (Zech 12:10). The mourning is a sign of repentence, a sign that most of us in here should recognize, as most, if not all of us were saved with tears of sorrow. (I know I was.) Also, Paul points out in Romans 11:23 that if Israel (unrepentant, of the flesh) doesn ot continue in their unbelief, that they would be annexed back onto the vine which God had previously axed them from.

I am in total agreement with you that in order for Israel to return to being God's chosen, they HAVE TO REPENT OF THEIR SINS, including the sins that they continue to share with their forefathers, who are presently doomed, denying Lord Jesus as their Messiah.

All I am saying is that God has a plan to save ethnic Israel. That plan will coincide with the Advent of the Beast (you call him the AntiChrist), and thus when the Abomination that causes desol.ation happens, many Israelites will die and be doomed to hell and the Lake, and the remnant who will see the Lord with His 144,000 men at the Mount of Olives will believe, and mourn because of the effect of that belief.

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:47 PM
what about Rev 3:10?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:10&version=31

all i ask is you answer with a few short paragraphs. lol!


It isn`t as long as the other LOL.

Revelation 3

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



A Conditional Promise
Notice the promise to "keep thee from" the hour of temptation is conditional upon keeping Jesus' Word with patient endurance. The Greek word "patience" in this verse is found seven times in Revelation (1:9, 2:2, 2:3, 2:19, 3:10, 13:10, 14:12). The last two are referring to believers in the tribulation patiently enduring the persecution of the Antichrist.


Jesus' promise to the local church of Philadelphia was because they had kept His Word with patient endurance thus far. Jesus did not make this promise to the other six local churches in Revelation. The promise is limited to one local church among many, and in response to their faithfulness. Of course, we can and should make broader application just as we do with all of the Epistles, written to local churches. However, we must also keep in mind the conditional nature of the promise, for those who have patiently kept Jesus' Word.


To assume a guarentee for all believers from this verse is a huge mistake. That goes far beyond what is stated or implied, and enters the realm of presumption. Remember Jesus' statement at the end of His Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7)? He likened believers who keep His Word to one who builds his house on the rock. He said that whoever keeps His sayings in that sermon would stand firm when the storm comes.


Not all believers keep Jesus' Word with patient endurance. If we are going to make a broader application of this promise than what is literally stated, at best it can be seen as a promise to SOME believers who take Jesus' advice in the Sermon on the Mount. It is certainly not a blanket promise for the Church at large.



A Promise of Immunity? Or a Promise of
Preservation?



Much of the meaning of this verse hangs on the phrase "keep thee from." It is pretty obvious that the "hour of temptation" refers to the events following in Revelation. But, does "keep thee from" mean removal or preservation? This is the key question.


The Meaning of "From"


Pre-tribbers claim the word "from" in the Greek [ek] means "out of." Therefore, they claim we will be physically kept "out of" the tribulation.


It is true the Greek word "ek" means "out of." However, as we will see later, they misinterpret the word "keep." They also misunderstand this little Greek preposition "ek." "Ek" normally requires a previous presence within the object, in this case, the tribulation. In the multitude of occurrances of "ek" in the Bible, in virtually all of them "ek" implies a previous connection to the object, usually within it. Rather than denoting a stationary position, "ek" implies a movement or emerging from within the object. The meaning of "ek" would more accurately be translated "out from among," or "out of the midst of." This is how it is defined in the Greek lexicons. In Rev. 3:10, the object is the tribulation. In order to come "out from among" the tribulation you must first be IN the tribulation. This usage can be demonstrated from the following verse.



Rev. 7:14


14 ...These are they which came OUT OF great tribulation,...

The words "out of" are also translated from the Greek word "ek." In this case, it is clear these saints were in the tribulation first, and emerged from it.

There are three Greek prepositions which could be translated "from" in English, with different meanings. The Greek words "para" and "apo" mean motion away from, or a fixed position outside the object. Had either of these been used in Rev. 3:10, the implication would be that believers would be kept out of, and remain outside, the tribulation. However, "ek" in contrast, means, motion from the interior of the object.


That is, emerging from within the tribulation. Based on the meaning of "ek" alone, the implication strongly favors a post-trib view of the saints emerging from within the tribulation.


Pre-tribbers attempt to redefine "ek" to mean totally exempt from the tribulation. They have put forward a couple of examples where "ek" may not demand a previous presence in the object. However, if their interpretations of these few cases are correct, they would most certainly be the exception and not the rule. In case you would like to compare other examples of "ek," here are all the occurrances in Revelation chapter 3. The English words represented by "ek" are in bold.


Rev 3:5

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name OUT OF the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


(KJV)

Rev 3:9

9 Behold, I will make them OF the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

(KJV)

Rev 3:10

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

(KJV)

Rev 3:12

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down OUT OF heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


(KJV)

Rev 3:16

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee OUT OF my mouth.

(KJV)

Rev 3:18


18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried IN the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


(KJV)


The Meaning of "Keep"


Our English word "keep" can have a variety of meanings, including to prevent, restrain, obey, hold, preserve, etc. Because of this, it is confusing in Rev. 3:10. Pre-tribbers interpret the phrase "keep thee from" to mean "prevent from entering." That is, "keep thee from" would mean to restrain or prevent from entering or experiencing the tribulation. But, "preventing" is not the meaning of the word "keep" in this verse. "Keep," is translated from the Greek word "tereo" which literally means "to keep an eye upon" in the sense of putting your full attention on someone or something. It does not mean to prevent or restrain. "Tereo" implies a kind of giving one's full attention to something or someone. It often implies preservation, but does not require that meaning. The most common usage of "tereo" in the New Testament is in regards to "keeping" God's commandments or words.


That is, observing them.

The Meaning of "Keep...from"

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says that when "keep"[tereo] is used with "from" [ek], it means: "by guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of."

That is, to keep full attention on them so as to assure their final emergence. Therefore, Rev. 3:10 cannot mean removal before the tribulation begins, but safely emerging from within the tribulation. Pre-tribbers misunderstand both the word "ek" and the word "keep."
There is only one other time this Greek phrase appears in the entire Bible. And, as we shall see, Jesus' statement in Rev. 3:10 is a referrence to His High Priestly prayer in John 17, which also contains the phrase.


The night before Jesus was crucified, He prayed in the garden for His disciples whom He was leaving in the world, and also all believers who would come after them. In this prayer, Jesus used the word "tereo" (keep) several times, but in two different ways. He spoke of His and the Father's "keeping" (attentiveness and preservation) of believers, and also believers being attentive to, and "keeping," Jesus' words.


John 17:6


6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of (ek) the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have KEPT (tereo) thy word.


(KJV)


John 17:11


11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, KEEP (tereo) through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


(KJV)

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I KEPT (tereo) them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(KJV)

John 17:15

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest KEEP (tereo) them FROM (ek) the evil.


(KJV)


Notice the word "ek" in verse 6. Jesus considered His disciples as having come "out of" the world. He did not mean physical removal, nor did He mean they were never a part of this world.

Rather, He meant they had emerged from the world system, being called out unto Christ. In verse 6, Jesus also used the word "keep" (tereo) in reference to His followers observing God's Word, as delivered by Jesus.


In response to their "keeping" His Word, Jesus prayed in verses 11 & 12 that the Father would "keep" (preserve, or be attentive to) believers. In verse 17, we have the only other occurrance of the phrase found in Rev. 3:10, "tereo...ek.

" Jesus asked the Father NOT to take them out of the world. That is, not to physically remove them from the sphere of this present evil world. Jesus in effect prayed that the Father leave us here, in the midst of this evil world. But, He also prayed that He would "keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil. Notice the exact parallel in Rev. 3:10. In both John 17 and Rev. 3:10, Jesus spoke of our "keeping" His Word. And in both He spoke of our being "kept" (preserved or given God's full attention) in RESPONSE to our keeping His Word.

And in both we are preserved out from among evil. In Rev. 3:10, John clearly defines it as "the hour of temptation." It is the same as Paul's "The day, The evil" in Eph. 6:13, and Jesus' "the evil" in John 17:15.



Jesus' Prayer & PromiseJohn 17Rev.
3:10

Believers KEPT (tereo) His Word thou gavest them me; and they have KEPT (tereo) thy word.

(vs. 6)because thou hast KEPT (tereo) the word of my patience He will KEEP (tereo) believers And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.

Holy Father, KEEP (tereo) through thine own name those whom thou hast given me (vs. 11)I also will KEEP thee"KEEP...FROM" (tereo...ek)I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest KEEP (tereo) them FROM (ek)(vs. 15)I also will KEEP (tereo) thee FROM (ek)Preservation from..."the evil" (vs. 15)"the hour of temptation"






It is extremely important to understand that the exact phrase in Rev. 3:10 (tereo...ek) is put in contrast to the idea of removal from the world in John 17:15. In effect Jesus said, "Don't take them out of the world, instead keep attentive to them with a view to their safely emerging from among the evil.

" Therefore, not only was Jesus referring the Philadelphian believers back to His High Priestly prayer in John 17, but by doing so He was indicating they would NOT be removed from the world, but would be watched over attentively during the "hour of temptation," having "kept" Jesus' Word with patience.

Revelation 3:10 is not a promise of removal before the tribulation. It is a conditional promise for those who have been attentive to keep His Word.

Jesus will be just as attentive to them until they emerge from the "hour of temptation." Some pre-tribbers argue that Rev. 3:10 cannot mean preservation in the tribulation because Revelation 13:7 indicates the Antichrist will "overcome" the (tribulation) saints, making this just an empty promise. However, Rev. 13:7 is speaking of persecution of the saints by the Antichrist. He will physically overcome many believers, who will become martyrs.


However, Rev. 12:11 says the saints overcome Satan, by being faithful unto death. While the Antichrist may overcome many of the believers physically, these same believers are said to 'overcome' Him by being faithful unto death. The promise in Rev. 3:10 is not of physical survival. It is a promise of God's presence going with us through the trials.


One could make the very same argument from John 17, that Christians today experience 'evil' all the time. Therefore Jesus' prayer goes unanswered! Of course we realize that in John 17 Jesus did not pray that no physical or emotional harm would ever come to His disciples. All of them were martyred but John! We understand this as a prayer that they would not be overcome by the evil, but would emerge victorious. So it is with Rev. 3:10.

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 10:52 PM
Hagee? Oh, I am sorry, but you are new to this board. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Doug Mitchell, also known as the Third Hero. Part of what makes me me is that I believe NOTHING that others say concerning the Bible UNLESS they show evidence through the Bible.

There is a reason why I have asked you that question, James. The reason is because it is prophecied in both the OT and the NT that "All Israel shall be saved". I have found a passage in Zechariah 12 showing that Israel, or at least the remnant of those who survive the slaughtering at Jerusalem, will mourn over God "whom they pierced" (Zech 12:10). The mourning is a sign of repentence, a sign that most of us in here should recognize, as most, if not all of us were saved with tears of sorrow. (I know I was.) Also, Paul points out in Romans 11:23 that if Israel (unrepentant, of the flesh) doesn ot continue in their unbelief, that they would be annexed back onto the vine which God had previously axed them from.

I am in total agreement with you that in order for Israel to return to being God's chosen, they HAVE TO REPENT OF THEIR SINS, including the sins that they continue to share with their forefathers, who are presently doomed, denying Lord Jesus as their Messiah.

All I am saying is that God has a plan to save ethnic Israel. That plan will coincide with the Advent of the Beast (you call him the AntiChrist), and thus when the Abomination that causes desol.ation happens, many Israelites will die and be doomed to hell and the Lake, and the remnant who will see the Lord with His 144,000 men at the Mount of Olives will believe, and mourn because of the effect of that belief.



I dont see no hope for noone including fleshly Israel outside of Christ.The remnant are orthodox Jewish believers in Christ.One thing noone can look at someone according to the flesh and tell if they are Jewish.Its Christ or it will be hell to pay.When the mourning begins it will be everlastingly to late.

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 10:53 PM
So, the literal translation of Revelation 3:10 is suppose to be that Jesus will keep an eyes out on the church at Philadelphia, keeping them safe while in the midst of the Tribulation? INteresting!

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 10:57 PM
I dont see no hope for noone including fleshly Israel outside of Christ.The remnant are orthodox Jewish believers in Christ.One thing noone can look at someone according to the flesh and tell if they are Jewish.Its Christ or it will be hell to pay.When the mourning begins it will be everlastingly to late.
That depends on when the mourning happens. According to my research, Israel's mourning will coincide with the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and thus those who run into the valley of th Mount of Olives will not only be kept safe, but saved as well, and not just from the sword of the Beast.

If you believe that the Mount of Olives event happens after the Great Tribulation, then the sorrow will be too late. However, the scriptures show that when Israel mourns, they shall be saved. Check out Zechariah 12-14, and see what I am talking about. (especially Zechariah 14:1-5a and compare it to Matthew 24:15-22, and then Revelation 12).

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 11:00 PM
That depends on when the mourning happens. According to my research, Israel's mourning will coincide with the beginning of the Great Tribulation, and thus those who run into the valley of th Mount of Olives will not only be kept safe, but saved as well, and not just from the sword of the Beast.

If you believe that the Mount of Olives event happens after the Great Tribulation, then the sorrow will be too late. However, the scriptures show that when Israel mourns, they shall be saved. Check out Zechariah 12-14, and see what I am talking about. (especially Zechariah 14:1-5a and compare it to Matthew 24:15-22, and then Revelation 12).



Very well could be.Most of the Church will be just as shocked when it finds itself in the Tribulation.

God bless.

third hero
Oct 12th 2008, 11:01 PM
Very well could be.Most of the Church will be just as shocked when it finds itself in the Tribulation.

God bless.
Agreed. Well, God bless you brother steven, for I think we find ourselves in agreement here.

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 11:03 PM
Agreed. Well, God bless you brother steven, for I think we find ourselves in agreement here.


{Amen Brother Amen}

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 12th 2008, 11:29 PM
I believe in the rapture but I also know it could not happen. What will I do if we're not raptured? I kind of figured I'd burn that bridge when I got there. We live in Alaska and have a cabin in the wilderness, that is an option.

But if anything I thought maybe we could travel to Israel and then flee with the others to Petrah or wherever it is in the mountains the Jews will hide, because they are supernaturally protected there right?

james516
Oct 12th 2008, 11:43 PM
I believe in the rapture but I also know it could not happen. What will I do if we're not raptured. I kind of figured I'd burn that bridge when I got there. We live in Alaska and have a cabin in the wilderness, that is an option.

But if anything I thought maybe we could travel to Israel and then flee with the others to Petrah or wherever it is in the mountains the Jews will hide, because they are supernaturally protected there right?



I believe the Lord will give His saints the strength to endure.Look it up in Revelation where it says they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.

God will never leave nor forsake us.When the great Tribulation comes,technology will help them find us.Dont fear the Lord is our strength.He will not put more on our shoulders than we can carry.I think this is a time for prayer worship and service as never before.



God bless you.

In Christ.

Brother Steven.

My heart's Desire
Oct 13th 2008, 01:19 AM
Well, bro Steven, all I have to say is....
whatever crush, asstrongashe (luke e leven), and all of the other post-tribbers have said.

And by the way, welcome to the board. Because of your position, you will be tried by Amils, pre-tribbers, and Romulus, whose beliefs I am not allowed to say. lol. Enjoy!
And thank you TH.
...my name is .....and I'm a pre-tribber! :) I promise not to try you yet! Welcome. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

james516
Oct 13th 2008, 01:28 PM
And thank you TH.
...my name is .....and I'm a pre-tribber! :) I promise not to try you yet! Welcome. I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.



Thank you MHD.

God bless.

Brother Steven.

TexasBeliever
Oct 13th 2008, 10:14 PM
I am a pre-trib believer. It is my opinion that the rapture is a spearate event from the second coming. Being caught up to the clouds is diffeant then Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives.


With all due respect, how can you come to that conclusion when Paul and Jesus only spoke of one return of the Lord and one first resurrection? If there is only one return and one resurrection, both stated as occuring when the Lord comes to destroy the wicked and reward the saints on the Day of the Lord, then it stands to reason there is only one gathering of believers.

Paul plainly stated that the coming of the Lord AND our gathering together unto Him would be preceded by apostasy of believers and the antichrist revealing himself when he declared himself God.

Jesus plainly stated that we would see Him coming "after the tribulation of those days."
The scriptures say that those who profess Christ will be given into the hands of the evil one for 42 months. Profession of Christ makes them part of the church, the body of believers.

Jesus said , "When the sun turns black, the moon red and the stars fall from the sky, THEN you will be the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory, and He will gather together His chosen."
His chosen SEE Him and so does the unbelieving world, as they say, "Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb, for the day of His vengenance has come."

Please, where do you find two resurrections of the just? Two raptures? Two seperate comings?

Old and New Testament alike only speak of one fiery coming with power and glory after the signs in the sun, moon and stars.
Rapture is not going to save us from the tribulation of antichrist. Rapture scoops us off the earth in full view of all unbelievers who have been persecuting believers and immediately after that the Lord devours the earth in His wrath.
Show me ONE place in scripture that says otherwise.