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Merton
Oct 12th 2008, 01:16 AM
Where is it?


As Paul spoke of the Christian being at war against spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places, then I ask the reader --

Where is this spiritual wickedness located and how does one fight against it and overcome it?


Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Merton.

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 01:19 AM
Wow. Great question, Merton.
Let's see what the rest of the saints come up with. :)

Richard

jponb
Oct 12th 2008, 01:29 AM
This wickedness comes from Satan. He is a deceiver who comes to steal, kill and destroy. Like with Eve in the Garden of Eden, he is able to manipulate situations and deceive those who gives him an ear or an eye. The way you fight this wickedness is by reading the rest of the passage.

13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

AliveinChristDave
Oct 12th 2008, 01:51 AM
Where is it?


As Paul spoke of the Christian being at war against spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places, then I ask the reader --

Where is this spiritual wickedness located and how does one fight against it and overcome it?


Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Merton.


In context it's not flesh and blood so it must be something or someone invisible to the naked eye.
There are two relms. One is darkness and the other one is high places.
Paul says even the devil himself can be transformed into an angel of light. (II Corinthians 11:14)
So, the wickedness in high places most likely is refering to those who profess to be in light but in actuality are agents of the devil disguised as agents of light. This could be in government and in the church.
We have to discern the spirits to know righteous workers from unrighteous workers. James promises us in 1:5 that God will give us wisdom to know the difference.
We overcome them two ways. First, in context, we have to put on the whole armor of God.
Second, Paul tells us in II Corinthians 6:17 to come out from among them and be separate.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 01:55 AM
It's in the spirit realm and is beyond the perception of our five senses. The most common way for us to perceive such things is in our thought lives. That's why Paul spoke of "taking every thought captive", and why the Word of God is our sword, according to Ephesians 6. If our sword is the words of God, then it stands to reason that our adversaries are also using words of their own against us, hence most of the battle is in our minds and thought lives.

Dani H
Oct 12th 2008, 02:07 AM
Spiritual wickedness in high places is anything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

2 Corinthians 10:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=10&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

They're not the beings (even though those beings exist) ... it's the teachings they plant everywhere they find an opening. In anyone.

Yes, the battlefield is in the mind. And the remedy is stated above. :)

Every thought? Every thought. Every. Single. One. :)

Because God will keep those in perfect peace, whose minds are fastened upon Him. All the time.

immortality
Oct 12th 2008, 02:16 AM
i would recommend all who are curious about this particular question to consider what is presented in the following link:

the cosmic struggle on the cross
(http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=128736)

Merton
Oct 12th 2008, 02:53 AM
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.


Paul here is defending his own calling (and others like him, the mature) in ministering the truth to the believers, which all others share in or come to share in according to Eph.ch.4.

However--

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The wrestle ( of all saints) is not against flesh and blood themselves but the spiritual wickedness against which we wrestle is ALWAYS IN some flesh and blood, and not some invisible or spiritual mysterious forces which might float around and play spooks with the saints (which satan will do if it engages the believer or anyone into a worthless endeavour such as talking with the dead and contacting so called past lives and rebuking satan all over the place while he (satan) laughs.

In other words, satan has his power through mankind, otherwise he has none, even though some of that power is of a spiritual nature and other is carnal and in the legislating of laws which clearly are contrary to the words of God.

Shall the saints of God speak up with what God says?

Only when His Word is firmly rooted in the lives of His saints.(2 Cor.10:5)


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



Merton.

Edit-

There is no such thing as fallen angels in the Bible but there are men sent by God to speak to man, and they fell from their calling, thus leading the masses into sin, nor holding sin back.

larry2
Oct 13th 2008, 12:09 AM
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Satan is known as the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Satan is the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

Satan at this present time is in heaven accusing us day and night before God. He will in the future be cast out of heaven. Read the following verses; they are the wicked in heavenly places.

Revelation 12:7 - 10
7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 - And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 - And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

God bless in Jesus' name -

jponb
Oct 13th 2008, 04:34 AM
There is no such thing as fallen angels in the Bible but there are men sent by God to speak to man, and they fell from their calling, thus leading the masses into sin, nor holding sin back.

Check out Genesis 6:4. These are fallen angels. Satan, himself is a fallen angel. Rev. 12:7 happened in heaven before Adam was even created. And also 2 Peter 2:4 4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30489a)] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30489b)] to be held for judgment.

BroRog
Oct 13th 2008, 04:49 AM
I take note of the many times Paul uses the word "stand" in this passage. This indicates to me that we are in a defensive mode rather than an attack mode. Ultimately, if I am right, we don't need to seek out the battle, it will come to us.

Secondly, I notice that the weapons of our warefare are either things we know or things we believe, i.e. the truth, the gospel, the faith, and the word of God, etc. This indicates to me that our battle is in the arena of ideas. Which ideas are true? What doctrines are true? What is the wise thing to believe in any given situation? Who do I trust? And so on.

We can help each other too. Meet with other believers. Read the Bible to each other. Remind each other of what is true, what is essential, and what is the most important thing. Encourage each other to keep the faith. Stand by a fellow believer through difficult times of testing and trial. Pray for each other. Visit them in the home.

You can think of other things I'm sure. :)

threebigrocks
Oct 13th 2008, 04:51 AM
meet with other believers. Read the bible to each other. Remind each other of what is true, what is essential, and what is the most important thing. Encourage each other to keep the faith. Stand by a fellow believer through difficult times of testing and trial. Pray for each other. Visit them in the home.

You can think of other things i'm sure. :)

amen! :)

immortality
Oct 13th 2008, 06:58 PM
Where is this spiritual wickedness located?"the heavens", the "heavenly realms", aka the universe


how does one fight against it and overcome it?having the triumphant power of jesus christ in your life

the following link clearly shows that the malevolent forces in the heavenly realms are satan and his fallen angelic emissaries:

the cosmic struggle on the cross (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=128736)

petepet
Oct 13th 2008, 07:09 PM
All Christians live in two spheres. On the one hand they live on earth, on the other they live in heavenly places, that is in the spiritual realm.

There they share with Christ in His rule (Ephesians 2.6; Revelation 20.4), and there they battle with spiritual wickedness by clothing themselves with the word of God (Ephesians 6.10-11). There they pray effectively.

Reynolds357
Oct 13th 2008, 08:45 PM
Where is it?


As Paul spoke of the Christian being at war against spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places, then I ask the reader --

Where is this spiritual wickedness located and how does one fight against it and overcome it?


Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Merton.

It is a class of demonic spirit. The entire verse lsits the classes of demonic spirit. Principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, and wicked spirits in the heavenlies are the classes listed. We "battle" against it the same way we do the other classes of wicked spirit. It is the most powerful class of evil spirit with only Lucifer being its superior in the evil heirarchy. However, Paul lists the weapons of our warfare. We know the authority we possess due to our new covenant rights. If we use our Spiritual weapons of warfare, and stand firm in our covenant rights, this super class evil spirit is no more of a nuisance to us than is a lowly class spirit.

Merton
Oct 14th 2008, 04:18 AM
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Satan is known as the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Satan is the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

Satan at this present time is in heaven accusing us day and night before God. He will in the future be cast out of heaven. Read the following verses; they are the wicked in heavenly places.

Revelation 12:7 - 10
7 - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 - And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 - And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

God bless in Jesus' name -


Hi Larry,

Satan does not need to go to Heaven to accuse the brethren when he roams freely among disobedient believers and others on earth.

How come satan, the spirit of this age, could be in the Heaven where Jesus is at the same time?

"heaven" used in the book of Rev. is the same word as "sky" ---

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


Mid heaven or mid sky is the place from which Christ comes down from at Armageddon (after first returning from Heaven to the sky)and is also the place that the three angels are seen with their messages to preach to mankind through men.

The point is that saints are not at war with an invisible foe, but rather that as God is in people in this world, so also is satan and it is to people that we speak the truth that they might change their mind about their lives and what they are doing.

There is NO testimony in the Bible of saints conducting spiritual warfare against fallen angels of the supposed Gen/ch 6 kind who supposedly fell from Heaven or will fall from Heaven, in the past or the future.

The book of Romans does not attribute the sins of man to fallen angels of the imagined kind.

We preach to people of flesh and blood but we do not war carnally against the person but we do war against the spirit captivating them by speaking to the person/governments who only can change their mind and give permission that God would remove the influences of satan from them and fill them with His own Spirit and influences of His Kingdom.

The believers of all past times spoke against the sinful practices of people and so should we continue to do so even if others say that we are only law preachers or being judgmental. We are only telling our friends and neighbours, our governments and brothers that sin is sin and that there is no way around being condemned for sinning without repenting and ceasing of breaking Gods laws and seeking Gods forgiveness only found in/from Jesus Christ and strength to live righteously in order to please God as any child of His has it in them to do.


Merton.

Merton
Oct 14th 2008, 05:27 AM
Check out Genesis 6:4. These are fallen angels. Satan, himself is a fallen angel. Rev. 12:7 happened in heaven before Adam was even created. And also 2 Peter 2:4 4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30489a)] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-30489b)] to be held for judgment.


Satan is said in scripture to DISGUISE himself as a angel of light, not that satan is an angel. 2 Cor ch 11.


2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed (transfigure or disguise) into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore itis no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Rev.12:7 does not describe any falling of satan from the Heaven.


Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

This war is between Christ with His messengers (people)on the earth, against the dragon who fought with his angels (messengers ) but it is within the church communities.

The dragon, while being interpreted as being satan, is more than satan himself because the dragon is a kingdom with a tail, which tail is interpreted in Isaiah ch 9 as being the false prophets, that is the those disguised as messengers of righteousness in 2 Cor ch 11.

It is the tail of the dragon which causes the falling of the stars of heaven, they are evangelical men (Dan ch 12)


Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: ---------

and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

We have to be careful of the way that God has made these words to appear because it has been in His own interest to confuse those who have no right to understand them.


The similarity between the falling of the sons of God in Gen.ch 6, the falling away of the sons of God in the time of Job, the falling away of the priesthood in the times previous to Christs first coming, and the falling away of the churches evangelicals, previous to Christs second coming, can not be overlooked for their being caused by the same things, and they were not caused by fallen angels of some spirit kind, but through the falling away of leaders of the churches, the prophets, through being deceived by and also infiltrated by satans false prophets of satans kingdom.

Think, Billy Graham and the Roman Catholic church for example.

Think, the evangelic church and their constant call for money.

Think, government in bed with the churches and both seeking the same things for self and by carnal means.

Think, humanism replacing the gospel.

Think the 7th letter in Rev. and 2 Thes ch 2.

Merton.

Merton
Oct 14th 2008, 05:57 AM
It is a class of demonic spirit. The entire verse lsits the classes of demonic spirit. Principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world, and wicked spirits in the heavenlies are the classes listed. We "battle" against it the same way we do the other classes of wicked spirit. It is the most powerful class of evil spirit with only Lucifer being its superior in the evil heirarchy. However, Paul lists the weapons of our warfare. We know the authority we possess due to our new covenant rights. If we use our Spiritual weapons of warfare, and stand firm in our covenant rights, this super class evil spirit is no more of a nuisance to us than is a lowly class spirit.


Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


If the sword of the Spirit is not advanced on the enemy (when Christ leads) then the saint will not require any of the defences mentioned in the verses.

If the saint does not speak as he ought then no ground will be gained from the enemy. No one would get saved, no lives would be changed, and satan would continue to rule.


We can engage in conversation with the lost on any issues concerning man, but as soon as we mention even one thing that God says (usually by inspiration) then all hell breaks loose, mostly not immediately but soon after we depart, the knives come out.

However they have heard, and even that one word will hound them to their deaths one way or another if necessary, but a spiritual war incorporates the carnal actions of men who will fight against it, whether it be by defaming the saint , or by finding some imagined or real fault, or even by claiming a misrepresentation of what God has said, or using the law, of civil or of church institution if in variance to Gods word.

This war can last a long time, particularly if one is in constant contact with them, as families sometimes are with each other.

The members of ones family can even utter defiant words against believing what God has said, in their last breaths, after engaging in a lifetime of resisting God and any family member who has tried to gently lead them to Christ, where resistance to has come in many forms over the years.

The kingdom of satan is hard at work to just shut the saints up, but where he first fails by force, then he reverts to deception, and the last resort is to make no one listen to him and get rid of him.

Merton.

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 09:42 AM
Hi Larry,

Satan does not need to go to Heaven to accuse the brethren when he roams freely among disobedient believers and others on earth.

<snip>

There is NO testimony in the Bible of saints conducting spiritual warfare against fallen angels of the supposed Gen/ch 6 kind who supposedly fell from Heaven or will fall from Heaven, in the past or the future.

The book of Romans does not attribute the sins of man to fallen angels of the imagined kind.

We preach to people of flesh and blood but we do not war carnally against the person but we do war against the spirit captivating them by speaking to the person/governments who only can change their mind and give permission that God would remove the influences of satan from them and fill them with His own Spirit and influences of His Kingdom.

<snip>
Butting in here at 2:39am
WOW!:o
Umm... Just one thing:

Larry never said anything about our battling against “fallen angels”.

He quoted Scripture which says Michael (another angel) and his angels fight/will fight against fallen angels.

Neither Larry nor the quoted Scripture - made mention of “the supposed Gen/ch 6 kind”.
You brought that in.

Richard

PS: <sigh>
“we do not war carnally against the person but we do war against the spirit captivating them by speaking to the person/governments who only can change their mind and give permission that God would remove the influences of satan from them and fill them with His own Spirit and influences of His Kingdom.”

Who said that? (I'm not disagreeing with your theology - I just don't see where all this was even alluded to in the post)

Merton
Oct 14th 2008, 11:09 AM
Butting in here at 2:39am
WOW!:o
Umm... Just one thing:

Larry never said anything about our battling against “fallen angels”.

He quoted Scripture which says Michael (another angel) and his angels fight/will fight against fallen angels.

Neither Larry nor the quoted Scripture - made mention of “the supposed Gen/ch 6 kind”.
You brought that in.

Richard

PS: <sigh>
“we do not war carnally against the person but we do war against the spirit captivating them by speaking to the person/governments who only can change their mind and give permission that God would remove the influences of satan from them and fill them with His own Spirit and influences of His Kingdom.”

Who said that? (I'm not disagreeing with your theology - I just don't see where all this was even alluded to in the post)


Look at post 10.

I do not always refer all of my comments to what one person said, but to the subject, as it was I who started it with a particular purpose in mind.

Merton.

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 11:36 AM
Look at post 10.

I do not always refer all of my comments to what one person said, but to the subject, as it was I who started it with a particular purpose in mind.

Merton.
We can only speculate about these "sons of God".
I just didn't see anything in Larry's post to reference these beings.

Richard :)

Merton
Oct 14th 2008, 12:15 PM
We can only speculate about these "sons of God".
I just didn't see anything in Larry's post to reference these beings.

Richard :)

You can only speculate:) but I do not have to because the Bible uses the words "sons of God" in a consistent fashion to teach the same truth over and over.

Sons of light are Sons of God , because they stand in the presence of God to hear what He has to say and they speak the same to the people, being of maturity to know the difference between personal instruction and that which is not.

The Sons of God of the Bible who fell in the time of Noah were the prophets of the time and Rev.12 tells of a similar future or now time and what God will do about it.





Merton.

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 12:29 PM
You can only speculate:) but I do not have to because the Bible uses the words "sons of God" in a consistent fashion to teach the same truth over and over.

Sons of light are Sons of God , because they stand in the presence of God to hear what He has to say and they speak the same to the people, being of maturity to know the difference between personal instruction and that which is not.

The Sons of God of the Bible who fell in the time of Noah were the prophets of the time and Rev.12 tells of a similar future or now time and what God will do about it.





Merton.
OK Merton. Thanks for clearing that up.