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vinsight4u8
Oct 12th 2008, 01:44 AM
Could it be in Rev. 7 - because Jesus it is come back time?

such as - Jesus told Israel that He would not see them till they say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.

When the people said that in the past - Jesus was to ride into Jerusalem - and the people used palm branches.


The people in Rev. 7 also say - salvation.

Hebrews 9:28 shows salvation time is Jesus appears time!

1 Thess, 5:9 shows the church is only appointed to any wrath that comes before salvation.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 12th 2008, 02:06 AM
The palm brances are a reference to the “Feast of Tabernacles”. Throughout this feast, which occurs from the fifteenth to the twenty-first of the seventh month, God’s people were commanded to cut off palm branches and celebrate before the Lord.

Leviticus 23:34 & 40 – Say to the Israelites: “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the Lord’s Festival of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days. On the first day you are to take branches from luxuriant trees—from palms, willows and other leafy trees—and rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days.”

The Feast of Tabernacles will also be celebrated every year during the Millennium as a memorial to God’s bringing us through our “wilderness” into the promised land, His Kingdom.

Zechariah 14:16-19 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

So we can infer from the palm branches that this scene in Revelation 7 is not taking place in heaven during the Tribulation, but rather is taking place in Jerusalem AFTER the 2nd Coming.

larry2
Oct 12th 2008, 11:51 PM
Quoting Literalist-Luke - So we can infer from the palm branches that this scene in Revelation 7 is not taking place in heaven during the Tribulation, but rather is taking place in Jerusalem AFTER the 2nd Coming.

Response - Dear brother, in Revelation 4:1 John is invited to come up hither; a heavenly viewpoint. He sees the Lamb take the book out of the Father's hand in Revelation 5:7 while still in heaven. In Revelation 7:9 we see the great multitude stand before the throne, which to me is in heaven. In Revelation 7:13 one of the elders, also in heaven is saying they came out of great tribulation. Your reply on the reasons for the palms was very interesting and I do plan on following up on that. But I see the difference in reward of these compared to the four and twenty elders who had crowns, and these that had only palms. The former are priest and kings, the great multitude become servants

Thanks in Jesus' name -

divaD
Oct 13th 2008, 12:24 AM
The palm brances are a reference to the “Feast of Tabernacles”. Throughout this feast, which occurs from the fifteenth to the twenty-first of the seventh month, God’s people were commanded to cut off palm branches and celebrate before the Lord.

Leviticus 23:34 & 40 – Say to the Israelites: “On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the Lord’s Festival of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days. On the first day you are to take branches from luxuriant trees—from palms, willows and other leafy trees—and rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days.”

The Feast of Tabernacles will also be celebrated every year during the Millennium as a memorial to God’s bringing us through our “wilderness” into the promised land, His Kingdom.

Zechariah 14:16-19 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

So we can infer from the palm branches that this scene in Revelation 7 is not taking place in heaven during the Tribulation, but rather is taking place in Jerusalem AFTER the 2nd Coming.


Hi Literalist-Luke.

Your interpretation seems rather confusing to me. You seem to have the coming of the Lord and His millenial reign already in progress, even before the 7th seal is opened, in which contains the 7 trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl judgments. And besides, what do you make of these verses? Are we to assume that the temple of God is already in the earth, even before the 7th seal is opened? Doesn't the New Jerusalem descend to earth after the millenial reign? Revelation 21:2


Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 13th 2008, 02:40 AM
Dear brother, in Revelation 4:1 John is invited to come up hither; a heavenly viewpoint. He sees the Lamb take the book out of the Father's hand in Revelation 5:7 while still in heaven. In Revelation 7:9 we see the great multitude stand before the throne, which to me is in heaven.Why, because that's what you've always "been taught"?
In Revelation 7:13 one of the elders, also in heaven is saying they came out of great tribulation.But notice the elder doesn't say they came out of the Tribulation "into heaven". The truth is that they came out of the Tribulation to enter the Millennium.
Your reply on the reasons for the palms was very interesting and I do plan on following up on that. But I see the difference in reward of these compared to the four and twenty elders who had crowns, and these that had only palms. The former are priest and kings, the great multitude become servantsWho are the 24 elders and what Scripture do you use to support your position?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 13th 2008, 02:43 AM
Your interpretation seems rather confusing to me. You seem to have the coming of the Lord and His millenial reign already in progress, even before the 7th seal is opened, in which contains the 7 trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl judgments.Contrary to what Tim LaHaye says, Revelation is not a straight chronology. It is a collection of series that dovetail together at common points.
And besides, what do you make of these verses? Are we to assume that the temple of God is already in the earth, even before the 7th seal is opened?The seventh seal goes back to before the Millennium.
Doesn't the New Jerusalem descend to earth after the millenial reign? Revelation 21:2The Jerusalem in Revelation 7 is not the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21-22. It's the Jerusalem of Ezekiel 40-48.

larry2
Oct 13th 2008, 03:41 AM
Quoting me - Dear brother, in Revelation 4:1 John is invited to come up hither; a heavenly viewpoint. He sees the Lamb take the book out of the Father's hand in Revelation 5:7 while still in heaven. In Revelation 7:9 we see the great multitude stand before the throne, which to me is in heaven.

Quoting Literlist-Luke - Why, because that's what you've always "been taught"?

Response - May I ask what your view of the throne of God is, and where it is using only scripture to show I'm wrong?

Quoting me - In Revelation 7:13 one of the elders, also in heaven is saying they came out of great tribulation.

Quoting Literalist-Luke - But notice the elder doesn't say they came out of the Tribulation "into heaven". The truth is that they came out of the Tribulation to enter the Millennium.

Response - Revelation 7:9 again says "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. Is God's throne on the earth prior to the New Jerusalem coming to earth?
if God says they stand before His throne, and before the Lamb I believe it.

Quoting me - Your reply on the reasons for the palms was very interesting and I do plan on following up on that. But I see the difference in reward of these compared to the four and twenty elders who had crowns, and these that had only palms. The former are priest and kings, the great multitude become servants

Quoting Literalist-Luke - Who are the 24 elders and what Scripture do you use to support your position?

Response - I use the KJV Bible.

Revelation 4:4. "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 5:8-10 says:
8 - "when He (Jesus) had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 - And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Revelation 7:9. - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:15. - "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

In Christ Jesus

Literalist-Luke
Oct 13th 2008, 06:28 AM
May I ask what your view of the throne of God is, and where it is using only scripture to show I'm wrong?Right now, the throne of God is in heaven, but at the 2nd Coming it's going to be moved to Jerusalem.

Isaiah 9:6-7 - "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this."

Where was David's throne located? In Jerusalem, of course.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteous Savior."

This will take place "in the land" or more specifically "Judah".

Micah 4:7 - "The Lord will rule over them in Mount Zion from that day and forever."

And that's just three examples. I could find more, but these should suffice.

Notice also this remarkable statement in Revelation 6:16 - "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" Why would the world's lost people be saying that unless they were personally witnessing "him who sits on the throne" and the Lamb coming at them in the sky? What we have here at the Sixth Seal is the 2nd Coming. This is the moment when the throne is transferred from Heaven to Jerusalem on the earth.


Revelation 7:9 again says "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. Is God's throne on the earth prior to the New Jerusalem coming to earth?Yes.
I use the KJV Bible.Unfortunately, the KJV's translation of Revelation 5:9-10 is not entirely accurate. The translators' use of the word "us" was an interpretation on their part rather than a literal translation. The passage should read something like this:

Revelation 5:9-10 "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God members of every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

So the word "us" in the KJV is insufficient proof for who these elders really are, unfortunately.

vinsight4u8
Oct 14th 2008, 01:49 PM
Rev. 7 is an overview chapter.
an "after" type of chapter

So end the seals 1-6 scene time - and then comes after that the information given in chapter 7.
Chapter 7 is there to provide a clearer picture as to the seals.
showing that 4-6 are the most important to the church

Rev. 7 slides in with more info before the 7th seal is opened.
The resurrection of the just happens - before the 7th seal.

The Lamb is not waiting till after the 1000 years to open the 7th seal.

Rev. 7's palm time is tied to the time to say, salvation.
That means - deliver the people.
save us
time for Jesus to do what Hebrews 9:28 says!

appear!

vinsight4u8
Oct 14th 2008, 01:51 PM
In Rev. 14 - the 144,000 are left on the earth - on mount Sion - and get taught a song - sung as new -that comes down from heaven.

The song is coming down from heaven to the earth - where the 144,000 are among men.

divaD
Oct 15th 2008, 08:31 PM
Contrary to what Tim LaHaye says, Revelation is not a straight chronology. It is a collection of series that dovetail together at
common points


I've heard of him but I never listen to him. As a matter of fact, there's not one person on tv that I even bother listening to anymore. What any of them teach or don't teach, I would be pretty much clueless about. And besides, I never even mentioned this person. I still don't see how you connect the scene in Rev 7 to the scene in Zechariah 14:16-19. It just doesn't look to be the same scene to me. And as far as Zechariah 14:16-19 is concerned, I agree that this is future and won't happen until after the 2nd coming, and won't happen until Christ's kingdom is literally set up and established in the earth.


Notice what takes place at the opening of the 7th seal, and also take note of the location.


Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake


The scene is clearly in heaven. If the kingdom of God is already established on earth in the 6th seal, ch 7, then what is the point of the 7th seal, which clearly takes place in heaven?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 09:02 PM
I've heard of him but I never listen to him. As a matter of fact, there's not one person on tv that I even bother listening to anymore. What any of them teach or don't teach, I would be pretty much clueless about. And besides, I never even mentioned this person.That's OK, no problem. He's the author of the Left Behind series.
I still don't see how you connect the scene in Rev 7 to the scene in Zechariah 14:16-19.They are both about the Feast of Tabernacles being celebrated during the Millennium. I explained earlier in this thread about Revelation 7 being the Feast of Tabernacles. It shouldn't be too hard to track down. :)
It just doesn't look to be the same scene to me. And as far as Zechariah 14:16-19 is concerned, I agree that this is future and won't happen until after the 2nd coming, and won't happen until Christ's kingdom is literally set up and established in the earth.Right, it's the Millennial Feast of Tabernacles.
Notice what takes place at the opening of the 7th seal, and also take note of the location.

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake

The scene is clearly in heaven. If the kingdom of God is already established on earth in the 6th seal, ch 7, then what is the point of the 7th seal, which clearly takes place in heaven?Unfortunately, the chapter division was poorly chosen. It should have been just after verse 1. Verse 2 is where the scene goes back in time to heaven where we now see the blowing of the trumpets. The reason for the silence in heaven is because heaven has emptied out and everyone has relocated to the earth for the Millennium.

I realize this probably sounds really strange because you've never heard it before. That was my first reaction as well, but if you'll allow yourself to actually consider it, you might be surprised.

Merton
Oct 15th 2008, 09:34 PM
That's OK, no problem. He's the author of the Left Behind series.They are both about the Feast of Tabernacles being celebrated during the Millennium. I explained earlier in this thread about Revelation 7 being the Feast of Tabernacles. It shouldn't be too hard to track down. :)Right, it's the Millennial Feast of Tabernacles.Unfortunately, the chapter division was poorly chosen. It should have been just after verse 1. Verse 2 is where the scene goes back in time to heaven where we now see the blowing of the trumpets. The reason for the silence in heaven is because heaven has emptied out and everyone has relocated to the earth for the Millennium.

I realize this probably sounds really strange because you've never heard it before. That was my first reaction as well, but if you'll allow yourself to actually consider it, you might be surprised.


Perhaps you could consider the same mistake in placing the chapter division in Rev.ch 21, where verse 1 may well be the conclusion of chapter 20, so that the coming down of the new Jerusalem in verse 2 is not to a new geo Earth and Heaven after the millennium but upon this present geo earth at Christs coming down from the clouds with all of the saints to reign over all of the earth, seeing as the resurrected saints are the living stones of the New Jerusalem (1 Peter 2:5) which is in process of completion in our times Eph.ch 2.

The silence in Heaven at the opening of the 7th seal is only for a short time and likely refers to something else other than what you mention.

Just in passing.


Merton.