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ZuriCH
Oct 12th 2008, 12:01 PM
Hi

It seems that most bible believers assume that a biblical
day starts with an evening. This is obviously backed by
today's jews' practice. However, reading the creation
of the world account in genesis, I am inclined to believe
that the day starts with the morning, not the evening.
I interprete the phrase "God creates Y, then it is evening,
then it is morning, day X" as the morning being the end
of day X.

My question: Is my assumption a valid assumption, can
it even be backed by some more evidence in scripture,
or does it have to be completely dismissed (in which case
I'd be interested to know why that is)

Regards,
Rene

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 01:03 PM
Try doing a study to see the difference in the places that a day is depicted as the morning coming first, vs. the evening coming first. It can be a most interesting study.

Whenever there are seeming anomalies the Bible such as this, there is often a spritual reason behind it. It takes prayerful study to find the answers.

ZuriCH
Oct 12th 2008, 02:21 PM
Hello RoadWarrior

My previous posting is basically the result of
such a study with regards to days beginning
in the morning vs them beginning in the evening,
although, I have to admit, it was not an
exhaustive study so far. But I felt the indications
given are such that the day actually begins with
the morning. Which confused me quite a bit because
all that I have heard and read regarding this matter
was in effect to say that the day starts with an
evening. I don't think that truth is dependent
on a majority stating it, but on the other hand,
since I am seem to be alone with my opinion
of a day starting in the morning, I wanted also
to hear other opinions or insights here.

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 03:40 PM
You are not alone, I discovered this several years ago as a new Christian, new to studying the Bible. I had a similar question. Keep going in your study.

Tell me what you find when you have finished.

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 03:55 PM
As I understand it - the beginning and ending of a day is reckoned by this verse - regarding this particular Sabbath:
(There are other Sabbaths in addition to the 7th day ones.)

"It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath."
Lev 23:32 NASB

ZuriCH
Oct 12th 2008, 06:07 PM
Richard

You make a good point here. I wasn't aware of that verse.

On the other hand, I based a bit of my thinking on
numbers 11:32:
he people spent all day and all night and all the next day, and gathered the quail (he who gathered least gathered ten homers) and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp.

Which leads me to a new theory: The dark periods (aka nights) of a day
don't belong to a specific date, or, with other words, nights are not meant
to be assigned to a date. (It's a theory in beta stage, so please bear with
me).

On a completely unrelated note: is it possible in this forum to
conveniently quote a portion of scripture. I didn't find any.

Regards,
René

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 06:12 PM
Try Biblegateway.com, you can copy scriptures from there and paste them in.

If you want to set them in a quote balloon like this:


Jonah 2

"Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep,
Into the heart of the seas,
And the floods surrounded me;
All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.

Then use the little white icon above (3rd from right). Highlight (select) the text, then click on the quote icon.

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 06:15 PM
If you go back to the first chapter of Genesis, you will notice that the scripture says

Ge 1:5
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
NKJV


This is repeated through the story of creation. "The evening and the morning" so the precedence is established there, for counting the day as beginning at dusk. I really like that the day begins with the time of rest!

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 06:29 PM
"Evening and morning" is used through scripture, until we get to this:

1 Sa 17:16
16 And the Philistine drew near and presented himself forty days,
morning and evening.
NKJV

and it continues until here:

Job 4:20-21
20 They are broken in pieces from morning till evening;
They perish forever, with no one regarding.
21 Does not their own excellence go away?
They die, even without wisdom.'
NKJV

In the Psalms, it returns to this:

Ps 55:16-18
6 As for me, I will call upon God,
And the Lord shall save me.
17 Evening and morning and at noon
I will pray, and cry aloud,
And He shall hear my voice.
18 He has redeemed my soul in peace from the battle that was against me,
For there were many against me.
NKJV

When we look for the patterns of repeated phrases, we can find the subtleties of God's Words to us.

The Jews have something really beautiful in the structure given to them by the Lord. That the day starts with rest is a major thing, when you think of it. There is a huge contrast between those who do things His way, and those who do it their own way.

The spiritual message I got from doing this study was that any projects or efforts which I undertake, should begin with rest and prayer (evening). When I am obedient to that pattern, then the work is easy, because the Lord is the one who carries the load. If I am not obedient to that pattern, I struggle and work hard to accomplish my tasks.

There are many, many verses which will echo the same theme. Here is a favorite:

Mt 11:28-30
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
NKJV

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 06:38 PM
On a completely unrelated note: is it possible in this forum to
conveniently quote a portion of scripture. I didn't find any.

Hi René,
I think that's why the Hebrew "clock" begins and ends with sundown.
I suppose if they had gotten it wrong, Jesus would have corrected them. L.O.L. ;)

By quoting...
Do you mean

putting it in a box?

or using copy/paste from e-Sword like this?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

or with some editing in Outlook:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:1-14

Richard H
Oct 12th 2008, 07:20 PM
"Evening and morning" is used through scripture, until we get to this:
...

Wow. Thanks for pointing out that pattern, RoadWarrior. I'm always learning new things in these threads. :)

Richard

Dani H
Oct 12th 2008, 09:48 PM
The spiritual message I got from doing this study was that any projects or efforts which I undertake, should begin with rest and prayer (evening). When I am obedient to that pattern, then the work is easy, because the Lord is the one who carries the load. If I am not obedient to that pattern, I struggle and work hard to accomplish my tasks.


That makes so much more sense than starting out a day all fuzzy-brained, doesn't it?

God turning on a light switch in my soul right now, and I'm loving this, because it's solid truth. And an answer to prayer, believe it or not. It's the last piece of a puzzle I've been working on with God for a while now. Thank you. :)

RoadWarrior
Oct 12th 2008, 09:54 PM
That makes so much more sense than starting out a day all fuzzy-brained, doesn't it?

God turning on a light switch in my soul right now, and I'm loving this, because it's solid truth. And an answer to prayer, believe it or not. It's the last piece of a puzzle I've been working on with God for a while now. Thank you. :)

:hug: You are welcome!

I love a quote by Einstein: "God is subtle, but He is not malicious."

To see the subtle things, we have to be patient and quiet.

My heart's Desire
Oct 13th 2008, 02:41 AM
"Evening and morning" is used through scripture, until we get to this:

1 Sa 17:16
16 And the Philistine drew near and presented himself forty days,
morning and evening.
NKJV

and it continues until here:

Job 4:20-21
20 They are broken in pieces from morning till evening;
They perish forever, with no one regarding.
21 Does not their own excellence go away?
They die, even without wisdom.'
NKJV

In the Psalms, it returns to this:

Ps 55:16-18
6 As for me, I will call upon God,
And the Lord shall save me.
17 Evening and morning and at noon
I will pray, and cry aloud,
And He shall hear my voice.
18 He has redeemed my soul in peace from the battle that was against me,
For there were many against me.
NKJV

When we look for the patterns of repeated phrases, we can find the subtleties of God's Words to us.

The Jews have something really beautiful in the structure given to them by the Lord. That the day starts with rest is a major thing, when you think of it. There is a huge contrast between those who do things His way, and those who do it their own way.

The spiritual message I got from doing this study was that any projects or efforts which I undertake, should begin with rest and prayer (evening). When I am obedient to that pattern, then the work is easy, because the Lord is the one who carries the load. If I am not obedient to that pattern, I struggle and work hard to accomplish my tasks.

There are many, many verses which will echo the same theme. Here is a favorite:

Mt 11:28-30
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
NKJV
All I knew was it says about the evening and the morning being the first day!
I like the results of your study!

ZuriCH
Oct 13th 2008, 05:27 PM
By quoting...
Do you mean
or using copy/paste from e-Sword like this?Neither... I was thinking of something like being able to write
[bible gen 1:14]
and then it would insert automagically the text of Genesis 1, verse 14.

In the meantime, I have to read all the answers, I just came home ...

Thanks all
René

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 05:36 PM
Neither... I was thinking of something like being able to write
[bible gen 1:14]
and then it would insert automagically the text of Genesis 1, verse 14.

In the meantime, I have to read all the answers, I just came home ...

Thanks all
René
:)
That would be neat.
FAQs show pretty standard BB code, though. :cry:

Tbone
Oct 13th 2008, 05:57 PM
If you go back to the first chapter of Genesis, you will notice that the scripture says

Ge 1:5
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
NKJV


This is repeated through the story of creation. "The evening and the morning" so the precedence is established there, for counting the day as beginning at dusk. I really like that the day begins with the time of rest!


Thank you Road Warrior for your research and study into this passage of Scripture. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I've wondered about this too many times.

Lars777
Oct 13th 2008, 08:24 PM
God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. (Genesis 1:5)





What does this mean? Take this declaration at a three-fold level. At the physical level, the material level, this clearly indicates that God began the process of rotation, for it is the rotating of the earth upon its axis that makes night and day, darkness and light.


When an astronaut goes up and zooms around the earth in orbit, he passes through alternating periods of night and day because both he and the earth are rotating. What is this strange function? It is an intriguing problem in science as to why everything in the universe revolves or rotates.


Science has long been seeking the explanation for this motion, which they call angular momentum. One of the difficult problems of science is not only to explain why everything rotates but also to explain why occasionally they find an object that, in an apparently perverse way, rotates the wrong way, as some of the moons of certain planets do, and as even some of the planets themselves.


Retrograde motion is what the scientists call it. Within matter there is a force, somewhat akin to gravitation, which compels two bodies that approach one another to revolve around a common center. On the physical level that is what produces light and darkness.


It is true of everything in the universe, without exception, whether it be the great blazing suns of space or the electrons in the atom.


At the psychic level, the level of the soul, the mental and emotional level, this declaration about God separating the light from the darkness implies the beginning of the cycles of the ages.


Time seems to have a rotary motion as well, and ages come and go, both within the reckoning of man and even before man appeared upon the earth. There is suggested a possible rotation of the ages, each one having a period of moral light and darkness.


It is not physical light we are speaking of, but moral, dealing with knowledge in some way. In Paul's letter to the Romans, in Chapter 13, he says to Christians, "...you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep" (Romans 13:11), "...the night is far gone, the day is at hand," (Romans 13:12a).


He is referring to the approaching nearness of a new age, the morning of God's eternal day when there will be night no more.

Then, on the spiritual level, there is the recognition of the existence of both good and evil. God says the light is good, i.e., there is something in the universe, he says, which comes from me.


Whatever it is, it is good because it is of him; it partakes of his character and nature. But there is also in the universe that which is not of him, that which is the opposite of what he has given.

That is "not good," that is darkness. These terms, light and darkness, are constantly played against one another all the way through the record of Scripture, and all the way through the record of man.


This does not refer, of course, to a duality of gods, though it appears so from man's point of view. But there are not two gods. The devil is subject to God, though, from our point of view, there is an apparent stand-off between these two forces.

This play between two forces gives us our key to the last thing to note in this passage, the phrase, "there was evening and there was morning, one day." One of the questions everyone asks about Genesis is, "How long are these days of Genesis 1? Are they 24-hour days during which God created the earth, i.e., actually one literal week?


Or do they represent long and indefinite ages of time, as science would suggest today, at its present level of knowledge?" It is interesting that, if we apply the key that we have just discovered, we will see that all three levels could be involved.


We are all familiar with a 24-hour day which includes an evening and a morning. There are also ages of time which, even in the reckoning of man, would include what could be regarded as darkness and light -- times of ignorance and relative knowledge.


Even in our own day we speak of "the Dark Ages." And there is an ultimate spiritual meaning which involves the realities of heaven and hell -- that which is of God and that which is opposed to God, that which is light with no darkness at all, and that which is nothing but darkness with no light at all.



Since the material or physical level is usually the symbol of the others, I would think that, just as in the case of the Sabbath, the 24-hour day is intended to be a reminder to us of the great ages during which God created the heavens and the earth.


The present recurring 24-hour day is a symbolic microcosm of past ages, just as the Sabbath day was given to man as a symbol to remind him of a spiritual and emotional rest that could be his. If that be the case, then we do not have 24-hour day periods in Genesis 1, but rather an indefinite length of time much more descriptively termed an age, or an epoch, of time.



But each is to be characterized by an evening and a morning. Note the order of that. The evening comes first. We Westerners, with our penchant for compromise, have divided the day so that it is a sandwich, beginning with a period of darkness, then a period of light in between, and finally another period of darkness.


We begin our day at midnight. But in the Eastern world the day begins at sunset so that each day starts with an evening and ends with a period of light.


That is in line with this revelation of the way God works. No matter whether it be man's day upon earth, an age of time, or a 24-hour period, each begins with a period of darkness, and then a period of light.


As the Apostle Paul says in First Corinthians 15, "first that which is natural, then that which is spiritual," (1 Corinthians 15:46). That is the invariable order.

What meaning does that have for us, as Christians? Can we not trace the fulfillment of this in our own experience? Did we not all begin our lives in darkness, in the grip and bondage of death and darkness?


Through the glorious redemption of the cross of Jesus Christ we have passed into a period of light which is, as the Old Testament says, "increasing more and more unto the perfect day" (Proverbs 4:18) we have entered a period of growing and ever-expanding light.


You can see this order in the work of the Lord Jesus himself. There was the darkness of the crucifixion, passing very shortly into the glorious morning of the resurrection when he stepped forth into the glory of a new day and a new life.


An evening and a morning, one day. Scripture also makes clear that if we have never gone through the darkness with him there is no morning to come. We must live constantly in the darkness.


The testimony of Scripture is that those who cling to the darkness, who refuse to be brought into the light, become at last, as Jude describes them, "wandering stars for whom the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude 1:13).

This even links with the celebration of the Lord's table. What is this simple supper we celebrate? Is it not a symbol to remind us of the one eternal event which is able to separate us from darkness and bring us into light?


When God separated the light from the darkness he anticipated the great separation of the cross of Jesus Christ, when light would be eternally separated from darkness.


Any of us, passing through that event with him, will also be separated from the darkness and brought into the light. Thus this simple table links directly with the words of our text. We too have passed from darkness into light.

Firstfruits
Oct 14th 2008, 11:36 AM
Hi

It seems that most bible believers assume that a biblical
day starts with an evening. This is obviously backed by
today's jews' practice. However, reading the creation
of the world account in genesis, I am inclined to believe
that the day starts with the morning, not the evening.
I interprete the phrase "God creates Y, then it is evening,
then it is morning, day X" as the morning being the end
of day X.

My question: Is my assumption a valid assumption, can
it even be backed by some more evidence in scripture,
or does it have to be completely dismissed (in which case
I'd be interested to know why that is)

Regards,
Rene

According to the following we have the evening and then the morning as being the day.

Gen 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) And God called the light Day, And the darkness he called Night. And the evening And the morning were the first day.

Gen 1:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening And the morning were the second day.

Gen 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) And the evening And the morning were the third day.

Gen 1:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) And the evening And the morning were the fourth day.

Gen 1:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) And the evening And the morning were the fifth day.

Gen 1:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And God saw every thing that he had made, And, behold, it was very good. And the evening And the morning were the sixth day.

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 14th 2008, 03:27 PM
Awesome. The Hebrew word is 'ehreb'. It can actually be read as "dusk". Sounds like sunset to me. Thanks FF.