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poochie
Oct 12th 2008, 09:01 PM
I hope I have the correct form. if not I apologize. The link below contains articles on the Market Driven Church Ministry and a biblical rebuttal to these worldly philosophies.

I have benefited greatly from these articles and I hope that you do as well. I suggest you print them off.

God bless

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/Doran/Market_Driven_Ministry_1.pdf

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/Doran/Market_Driven_Ministry_2.pdf

crossnote
Oct 13th 2008, 05:03 AM
I hope I have the correct form. if not I apologize. The link below contains articles on the Market Driven Church Ministry and a biblical rebuttal to these worldly philosophies.

I have benefited greatly from these articles and I hope that you do as well. I suggest you print them off.

God bless

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/Doran/Market_Driven_Ministry_1.pdf

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Topical/Doran/Market_Driven_Ministry_2.pdf

I've never heard of David Doran (the article is somewhat dated (1996)), but his bibliography looks quite sound.

The Preacher
Oct 13th 2008, 11:53 AM
This strategy is the foundation of the American commercial gospel enterprise. I think we will get the same response that the moneychangers did when Jesus returns if we don't repent from it.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 13th 2008, 04:30 PM
This strategy is the foundation of the American commercial gospel enterprise. I think we will get the same response that the moneychangers did when Jesus returns if we don't repent from it.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I agree... You can't 'market' salvation likes its some enterprise or merchandise.. and you can't market the Word as if its some enterprise or business... Thats what they were doing in the Temple.. Jesus ran them out and told them.. My house shall be called a house of prayer.. but you have made it into a den of thieves.. not only the 'temple' with stone but when a Christian begins to do this.. He/she is the 'temple of the Holy Ghost'... the body is. when that happens.. a true believer can expect to be chastised and given the right direction as to the commercialization of the Gospel message and the Word itself..

Listen to Paul's word...

For we are not as many, which corrupt the Word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

corrupt: in the Greek is translated as:

to be a retailer, to peddle
2) to make money by selling anything
a) to get sordid gain by dealing in anything, to do a thing for base gain
b) to trade in the word of God
1) to try to get base gain by teaching divine truth
c) to corrupt, to adulterate
1) peddlers were in the habit of adulterating their commodities for the sake of gain

poochie
Oct 13th 2008, 05:58 PM
This strategy is the foundation of the American commercial gospel enterprise. I think we will get the same response that the moneychangers did when Jesus returns if we don't repent from it.

Well said brother. Amen!!

apothanein kerdos
Oct 13th 2008, 05:59 PM
There's an excellent book titled The Market Driven Church by Udo Middlemann. Very good read and very on target with what has been said here.

Dani H
Oct 13th 2008, 10:54 PM
Interesting article.

Just another pitfall of the Christless Churchianity that is so prevalent today.

amazzin
Oct 13th 2008, 10:57 PM
You know what's really said is how you attribute good solid due diligence in church administration with wordly marketing techniques.

apothanein kerdos
Oct 14th 2008, 12:00 AM
You know what's really said is how you attribute good solid due diligence in church administration with wordly marketing techniques.


But they are the same. There is management, and then there is just marketing scams the church puts on. The church looks at the demographics, tries to reach out to a certain demographic, and so on. How is that any different from the world?

Dani H
Oct 14th 2008, 02:43 AM
Where are marketing strategies found in the Bible, exactly?

It boggles me what our flesh will come up with to gratify itself.

Also, I see no account in the New Testament where God was involved in packing buildings full of people. I do, however, see accounts of Him adding to "their number" daily, which is the Church, the called out ones, His Ekklesia, that living, breathing body of His that has nothing to do with stone-and-brick buildings, but is, in itself, a building, a mighty city where the precious stones are people, the New Jerusalem, the Bride adorned for her Husband. :)

What are we building, who are we building for, and according to whose way?

poochie
Oct 14th 2008, 04:08 AM
You know what's really said is how you attribute good solid due diligence in church administration with wordly marketing techniques.

Read the article and you wont regret it.

I attend a Bible Preaching Fundamentalist separatist seminary. In one course (one of my easier ones) I had to read both articles, examine the content in detail and answer 20 questions. We are going through all the flaws in the evangelical and charismatic movement and even some issues in the Fundamentalist churches in this course.

Read one 350 page plus book and the flaws of the evangelical worship philosophy. Although I disagree with the Fundamentalists on this one, I'll only ask questions with plenty of evidence or keep my POV to my website only.

Reading another critique on the Willow Creek movement, and got another one to read after that one is done. Gotta love it...

This reading is light compared to reading in a textual Criticism textbook or systematic theology, or hermeneutics. But its well worth it.

matthew94
Oct 14th 2008, 04:15 AM
It's easy to speak against marketing when we're referring to obviously superficial marketing methods. But in some cases there is a very fine line between marketing and strategic evangelism. As usual, it comes down to motives. If a person truly has a heart to reach people for Jesus Christ, and there method is labeled as marketing by others, I highly doubt God is as disappointed as their peers. We live in a consumer culture and, to some degree, we may need to 'market' for the simple reason that lost people think in terms of a marketplace and consumerism. The key is keeping the content intact.

scourge39
Oct 14th 2008, 04:55 AM
Marketers enable authors like Udo Middlemann, Michael Horton and others to sell their books that criticize market-driven Churches. They read monographs, develop catchy titles for them along with eye-catching dust jackets, the authors don't. As long as marketing doesn't supercede the Gospel message, there's no reason to despise it or completely reject it. It has a measure of God-given usefulness. Without marketing, we wouldn't be familiar with most of the resources available to us.

crossnote
Oct 14th 2008, 05:04 AM
Can someone give examples of marketing techniques used by the Apostles in spreading the Gospel?

I rather see this sort of thing...

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.
(1Co 1:17)
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
(1Co 2:3-4)

Joe King
Oct 14th 2008, 05:13 AM
What is really scary to me, is how much they hide this information from us. I'm in the US and this stuff is rarely covered, and if it is, it's brief. A little digging on the internet reveals many pieces of the end time puzzle coming together.

scourge39
Oct 14th 2008, 05:33 AM
Can someone give examples of marketing techniques used by the Apostles in spreading the Gospel?

I rather see this sort of thing...

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.
(1Co 1:17)
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
(1Co 2:3-4)





Show me Sunday schools, youth groups, specialized Church ministries, etc. in Scripture. They're nowhere to be found and yet, most Churches have them and they're effective. I understand what you're saying and agree to certain point, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because something is not mentioned in Scripture does not make it bad necessarily.

The Preacher
Oct 14th 2008, 08:52 AM
But they are the same. There is management, and then there is just marketing scams the church puts on. The church looks at the demographics, tries to reach out to a certain demographic, and so on. How is that any different from the world?


I wonder as well..HOW is this any different from the world? When we read the Gospels we see Jesus preaching an uncompromising word. One that almost sounds harsh. It's almost as if he was trying to drive people away.
In fact after Jn 6:66( the irony) He turned to the twelve and ask them if they wanted to leave as well! I often wonder what one of today's Pastor's in the "user friendly" church movement would do if he was confronted with the decision Jesus made. Would he ease back on the message? Would he compromise the message so he wouldn't be abandoned? Would he bargain with the rich young ruler and say "Just give me 10% and you'll be OK"?
Jesus was ready to have everyone forsake him and stand for the Father's will. I wonder how many of US fit this category:

2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

It's akin to Jerusalem when Isaiah noted:

Isa 30:10
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us SMOOTH things, prophesy deceits:


We may be in for a surprise when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

The Preacher
Oct 15th 2008, 05:11 AM
It's easy to speak against marketing when we're referring to obviously superficial marketing methods. But in some cases there is a very fine line between marketing and strategic evangelism. As usual, it comes down to motives. If a person truly has a heart to reach people for Jesus Christ, and there method is labeled as marketing by others, I highly doubt God is as disappointed as their peers. We live in a consumer culture and, to some degree, we may need to 'market' for the simple reason that lost people think in terms of a marketplace and consumerism. The key is keeping the content intact.

It's funny how Peter told the cripple man "Gold and silver have I none but such as I have I give unto you..in the name of Jesus rise up and WALK" and he with the other apostles turned the world upside down. The early church evangelized with POWER. We seem to think we need Madison avenue marketing tactics. This is a classic paradigm of the natural man who tries to institute ,in the natural with his methods, that which can only be done by the Spirit.

crossnote
Oct 15th 2008, 05:58 AM
Show me Sunday schools, youth groups, specialized Church ministries, etc. in Scripture. They're nowhere to be found and yet, most Churches have them and they're effective. I understand what you're saying and agree to certain point, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because something is not mentioned in Scripture does not make it bad necessarily.

Scourge,
I asked "Can someone give examples of marketing techniques used by the Apostles in spreading the Gospel? " and then I gave Scriptural examples of what I saw. I got no answer but a red herring.
My point is that apart from the preached Gospel even the 'Sunday Schools' or 'specialized Church ministries' are just man's 'effort' to do God's work.

scourge39
Oct 15th 2008, 06:13 AM
Scourge,
I asked "Can someone give examples of marketing techniques used by the Apostles in spreading the Gospel? " and then I gave Scriptural examples of what I saw. I got no answer but a red herring.
My point is that apart from the preached Gospel even the 'Sunday Schools' or 'specialized Church ministries' are just man's 'effort' to do God's work.

There were no 'marketing' techniques used, but there was a definite technique used. When addressing Jews, the Greek translation of the OT (Septuagint) was used to validate Christian claims; when addressing Gentiles, that which was familiar to a particular audience served as the starting point before presenting the Gospel.

The Preacher
Oct 15th 2008, 09:16 PM
There were no 'marketing' techniques used, but there was a definite technique used. When addressing Jews, the Greek translation of the OT (Septuagint) was used to validate Christian claims; when addressing Gentiles, that which was familiar to a particular audience served as the starting point before presenting the Gospel.

This is the problem with the natural man. He looks at something that is wrought in the Spirit and he sees techniques and methods. He then sets about to replicate something in the natural that can only be done in the spirit. However, the fact that the apostles used a translation suited for the audience hardly justifies the marketing techniques used by the American commercial gospel enterprise today.