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Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 13th 2008, 04:10 AM
Below is a snippet of a convo I had with an old friend regarding the current financial crisis and the end times.

ME:i would not be suprised at all in the 10 nations/curency comes out of this
like much of Europe has already done

FRIEND:I'm just sick of it all... it's just money, yeah it stinks and I feel bad for old people but young people just need to get over it. It's just money, we're still young, we'll get it all back and more ... our whole lives are ahead of us.... people need to concentrate on other things in life besides money...
huh? I don't get that first sentence...
what nations/currency what??

ME: at some point the world will be down to 10 unions with 10 national currencies

FRIEND: ha! you reckon? I don't think so

ME: this is not just bible prophecy crazy talk, the options are already on the table being considered

FRIEND: liek yeah the Euro is in most of the EU countries

but I don't think lets say african countries will ever unite and share currency...

ME: if i remember correctly I think Africa is split in two
but anyways Im not all that sure about the monetary system
i just know Jesus is going to come back sometime and its foolish to think he won't come back at all in our lifetime

FRIEND: hehe yeah...well we'll never know until that moment comes

ME: I guess I could say the mark of the beast is the final nail in the coffin on the monetary system but what happens up till then, im not sure

FRIEND: heheyeah...*
but hey... on the positive side of all of this. Churches in Iceland are seeing growth ... cause when everything is uncertain like right now... people go to church! so hopefully...something will happen in their thinking and they'll realize they need God

END

So I'm not saying it was a horrible conversation, but when I started taking our current events and started talking about Bible Prophecy I got a whole bunch of these!

:confused :hmm: :rolleyes: :rofl:

Like I was some crazy luny conspiritist! Ok I will admit she went to Hillsong Church for many years, and while they write great worship music all of their preaching is so positive never negative, they all kind of have a pie in the sky attitude down under. I know, I've been there. I'm sure she thinks the sun shines out of her bottom. Well this attitude just frustrates me to no end.

paradiseinn
Oct 13th 2008, 04:23 AM
just remember...no one listened to noah.:hmm:

HisLeast
Oct 13th 2008, 04:26 AM
just remember...no one listened to noah.:hmm:

People told me the EXACT same things when I doubted that the 1980's were the final days.

larry2
Oct 13th 2008, 04:27 AM
Dear little sister, never be disappointed when you talk about God to anyone because God will take things you didn't think made any difference and turn it into what He wants to do in that life. Have you ever been to church and thought that preacher must know my problem because his message is just for me, and God made sure you heard it. You may have been the only one noticing that portion of scripture mentioned that day. God's word never comes back void; it accomplishes that which He wants it to do; wait on the Lord and watch the results and it may take much time. You may be surprised when your friend depends on you for an answer to something spiritual in the future.

God bless you and your testimony in the precious name of Jesus -

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 13th 2008, 04:35 AM
it's deal little brother

Roelof
Oct 13th 2008, 06:39 AM
Below is a snippet of a convo I had with an old friend regarding the current financial crisis and the end times.



I fully support you on the Ten World Regions, it should be ready within 3 years, I reckon

I also serve Jesus by preparing Christians for the Tribulation and the Rapture. Some are scared, some do not believe me, but I still do it.

Keep on going !!!

Duane Morse
Oct 13th 2008, 06:54 AM
And me, I see ignorance on both sides of the conversation.

Here is one example from Forgiven Alaskan:
ME: at some point the world will be down to 10 unions with 10 national currencies

Where do you get this from scripture?

The entire conversation is so disjointed as well. There is no flow to it, as in from point to point in a natural progression.

That may be why you get so many :confused :hmm: :rolleyes: :rofl:



The 'mark of the beast' implies a single worldwide currency - not 10 - by the way.

Roelof
Oct 13th 2008, 09:43 AM
The 'mark of the beast' implies a single worldwide currency - not 10 - by the way.

Duane

Where do you get this from?
With modern computers 10 currencies are a piece of cake.

Duane Morse
Oct 13th 2008, 10:06 AM
Whatever.

Make up what you will.

If a single mark is given to buy and sell, it stands to reason that the 'currency' is singular!

tt1106
Oct 13th 2008, 11:03 AM
Should we care about the end times? I'm convinced we shouldn't.

Roelof
Oct 13th 2008, 11:24 AM
Should we care about the end times? I'm convinced we shouldn't.

It depends on your interest.
I do care a lot and I regard it as my ministry to prepare Christians for the Last Days

vinsight4u8
Oct 13th 2008, 02:04 PM
The bible shows the ten go attack other places,

so guys - don't expect ten world regions to fulfill the Daniel 2 - and 7 prophecies.

Watch for 13 horns - plus Iraq.

Iraq's little horn will pluck up three of those - and the remaining ten will join willingly with the beast of Iraq to conquer Israel and other places.

moonglow
Oct 13th 2008, 03:01 PM
Below is a snippet of a convo I had with an old friend regarding the current financial crisis and the end times.

ME:i would not be suprised at all in the 10 nations/curency comes out of this
like much of Europe has already done

FRIEND:I'm just sick of it all... it's just money, yeah it stinks and I feel bad for old people but young people just need to get over it. It's just money, we're still young, we'll get it all back and more ... our whole lives are ahead of us.... people need to concentrate on other things in life besides money...
huh? I don't get that first sentence...
what nations/currency what??

ME: at some point the world will be down to 10 unions with 10 national currencies

FRIEND: ha! you reckon? I don't think so

ME: this is not just bible prophecy crazy talk, the options are already on the table being considered

FRIEND: liek yeah the Euro is in most of the EU countries

but I don't think lets say african countries will ever unite and share currency...

ME: if i remember correctly I think Africa is split in two
but anyways Im not all that sure about the monetary system
i just know Jesus is going to come back sometime and its foolish to think he won't come back at all in our lifetime

FRIEND: hehe yeah...well we'll never know until that moment comes

ME: I guess I could say the mark of the beast is the final nail in the coffin on the monetary system but what happens up till then, im not sure

FRIEND: heheyeah...*
but hey... on the positive side of all of this. Churches in Iceland are seeing growth ... cause when everything is uncertain like right now... people go to church! so hopefully...something will happen in their thinking and they'll realize they need God

END

So I'm not saying it was a horrible conversation, but when I started taking our current events and started talking about Bible Prophecy I got a whole bunch of these!

:confused :hmm: :rolleyes: :rofl:

Like I was some crazy luny conspiritist! Ok I will admit she went to Hillsong Church for many years, and while they write great worship music all of their preaching is so positive never negative, they all kind of have a pie in the sky attitude down under. I know, I've been there. I'm sure she thinks the sun shines out of her bottom. Well this attitude just frustrates me to no end.

Not trying to hurt your feelings or anything here but if I was at the other end of that conversation I would have no idea what you were talking about. Without some scriptures to even try to understand what you were saying, my reaction would probably not be much better then her's...sorry. It was very confusing what you were trying to get at in other words...

God bless

aceinthehouse
Oct 13th 2008, 06:13 PM
The fact remains...Unless you have read your bible and scriptures and understand that your faith in Jesus is real,and that he will in fact return for a 2nd time to take the faithful away..many won't understand!

But to believe that,you also have to believe that Jesus was real and that he was crucified on the Holy Cross and then he died for everyone's sins....And then you have to believe that he rose again in 3 days after the crucifixion.

Jesus conquered death!

You can either believe it or you don't!

"To deny Christ is to deny his word....To deny his word is to deny his teachings....to deny his teachings is to deny his message....to deny his message is to deny his love for humanity....to deny his love for humanity is to deny holyness....and to deny holyness is to deny anything except your own selfish gratification....and to deny anything except your own self gratification is deny the Trinity....and to deny the Trinity is to deny any hope you have in meeting Jesus Christ!" by Aceinthehouse:pray:

You don't have to have the brains to get to heaven my fellow members,but you better have the heart!!

third hero
Oct 13th 2008, 06:27 PM
but I don't think lets say african countries will ever unite and share currency...

ME: if i remember correctly I think Africa is split in two
but anyways Im not all that sure about the monetary system
i just know Jesus is going to come back sometime and its foolish to think he won't come back at all in our lifetime



Actually, Africa is united, under the banner of the African Union. What they are trying to do now is squash all of the ethnic wars that has decimated the nations of Rwanda, Somalia, and Nigeria. The African Union is currently gaining momentum, with a constitution, something that even the EU does not have yet, and representatives of all of the African nations have signed it. The currency is still being worked out, but the main point that you might want to know is that Africa is considered to be one giant country now.

Mograce2U
Oct 13th 2008, 06:52 PM
Hi Forgiven Alaskan,

So I'm not saying it was a horrible conversation, but when I started taking our current events and started talking about Bible Prophecy I got a whole bunch of these! That's because speculating on bible prophecy is the not the same as speaking the oracles of God. Your opinion on what you don't know (hence the speculation) leaves you open for others to disagree with your opinion. That is why Paul's preaching was only about Christ crucified - the gospel. The anchor of our hope and faith in Him concerns His priesthood - a present reality which we can know. Prophecy is not understood by looking at the world and the things that transpire here. That is because the signs in the world only signify what is the reality in the spiritual world - hence they are but a shadow. And we can't know what those general signs which occur in every generation mean unless a specific sign is given to us. Wars and rumors of wars are in every generation and cannot therefore show us the end is near. Wars have ceased before and wicked men went the way of all the world.

Now if you see armies surrounding Jerusalem, then you can know the Lord is at the doors.

Oh wait a minute... didn't that already happen? ;)

Semi-tortured
Oct 13th 2008, 07:02 PM
This thread in a nutshell is why so many people have what the original poster refers to as "their head in the sand." Immediately people start arguing over what or who the 10 are in terms of economy, etc. That was the only point in the original post and that point generated a number of opinions. Multiply that by every topic in end times study and we have a million different possibilities of how things will shake out with only one being correct. There are a lot of people (myself included) who are said to have their head in the sand because we don't look at everything that happens through apocalyptic lenses. It will be obvious when it starts that it is starting. But like I said in another thread, whether you die in a car wreck tomorrow or you are raptured this afternoon, it's all the same to you. Either one could happen this week, and either one could happen in 50 years (depending on your age, not sure how old you are).

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 07:12 PM
Actually, Africa is united, under the banner of the African Union. What they are trying to do now is squash all of the ethnic wars that has decimated the nations of Rwanda, Somalia, and Nigeria. The African Union is currently gaining momentum, with a constitution, something that even the EU does not have yet, and representatives of all of the African nations have signed it. The currency is still being worked out, but the main point that you might want to know is that Africa is considered to be one giant country now.

True - I live on the South-Western tip of the African continent and my city's permanent population is made up of people from nearly every country on the African continent (many of the non-indigenous South Africans, praise God - are strong Christians!!) The African Union is going to get its act together very soon - I believe we will see one currency within the next few years.

ananias

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 07:27 PM
This thread in a nutshell is why so many people have what the original poster refers to as "their head in the sand." Immediately people start arguing over what or who the 10 are in terms of economy, etc. That was the only point in the original post and that point generated a number of opinions. Multiply that by every topic in end times study and we have a million different possibilities of how things will shake out with only one being correct. There are a lot of people (myself included) who are said to have their head in the sand because we don't look at everything that happens through apocalyptic lenses. It will be obvious when it starts that it is starting. But like I said in another thread, whether you die in a car wreck tomorrow or you are raptured this afternoon, it's all the same to you. Either one could happen this week, and either one could happen in 50 years (depending on your age, not sure how old you are).

And if it starts before we've left the world, many of those who had "their heads in the sand" but their hearts in Jesus are going to found in His eternal kingdom, while many from those of us who don't have our heads in the sand might find that we weren't as ready as we thought we were - because not everyone's heart is in the right place -

JESUS CARES MUCH ABOUT US OBEYING HIS COMMANDS FROM THE HEART AND LITTLE ABOUT WHETHER WE CORRECTLY UNDERSTAND ESCHATOLOGY, IMO.

Your eschatology and Bible prophecy addict,
ananias

Mograce2U
Oct 13th 2008, 07:41 PM
And if it starts before we've left the world, many of those who had "their heads in the sand" but their hearts in Jesus are going to found in His eternal kingdom, while many from those of us who don't have our heads in the sand might find that we weren't as ready as we thought we were - because not everyone's heart is in the right place -

JESUS CARES MUCH ABOUT US OBEYING HIS COMMANDS FROM THE HEART AND LITTLE ABOUT WHETHER WE CORRECTLY UNDERSTAND ESCHATOLOGY, IMO.

Your eschatology and Bible prophecy addict,
ananiasI know people always say this which seems to be their license to speculate upon prophecy. But Jesus' testimony to us in the record that He has given us - is prophecy (Rev 19:10). Therefore if we are to grow in our knowledge of Him, it is related to what the scriptures said about Him that was hid in past ages and generations, but now made manifest to the saints (Col 1:26). And Paul is clear that prophecy is a greater gift than tongues for edifying the saints.

So I tend to think that a light handling of the prophetic scripture (by speculating) is probably not wise because why else would the Father have made this Jesus' testimony? And old prophecies given to warn the people now serve as examples to us. Those who failed to heed those prophecies suffered as a result. Therefore we ought not let history repeat itself thru making the same error.

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 07:55 PM
I know people always say this which seems to be their license to speculate upon prophecy. But Jesus' testimony to us in the record that He has given us - is prophecy (Rev 19:10). Therefore if we are to grow in our knowledge of Him, it is related to what the scriptures said about Him that was hid in past ages and generations, but now made manifest to the saints (Col 1:26). And Paul is clear that prophecy is a greater gift than tongues for edifying the saints.

So I tend to think that a light handling of the prophetic scripture (by speculating) is probably not wise because why else would the Father have made this Jesus' testimony? And old prophecies given to warn the people now serve as examples to us. Those who failed to heed those prophecies suffered as a result. Therefore we ought not let history repeat itself thru making the same error.

Yes, that is true. But when being serious about prophecy leads to arguments and dissention and squabbling between brothers, then rather not.

The trouble is (and I'm going to use you and me as a hypothetical example of every one of us), I'm very serious about prophecy - and I don't believe I'm speculating - yet you're just as serious about prophecy, and you don't believe you're speculating - yet we often disagree on our interpretation of prophecy. If our hearts are not in the right place, we're not going to love one another as Jesus loved us, and we're going to get mad at one another - this happens all too often as this Forum has shown time and again (not between you and me, but you know what I mean).

ananias

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 13th 2008, 07:58 PM
the convo was edited, but most ppl just don't seem to think it will happen while they're alive. Like God loves them so much, he just has to wait to start to Trib until after they've long died. But I guess ppl of every generation feels this way.

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 08:08 PM
the convo was edited, but most ppl just don't seem to think it will happen while they're alive. Like God loves them so much, he just has to wait to start to Trib until after they've long died. But I guess ppl of every generation feels this way.

People are individuals - we're all so complex. Someone who has had more than enough heartache and trauma in his/her life and is a Christian is not going to want to know about the possibility that he/she might see even more trauma/heartache. Can we blame them? We need to just love our brothers and sisters in Christ and just pray for them. Jesus wnts them - and us - to be with Him in His Kingdom.

PS: this is not a lecture - I've complained myself about people being asleep and having their heads in the sand - I think I shoul've trusted Jesus with them and stopped complaining, as though I'm so perfect (hmmph!)

HisLeast
Oct 13th 2008, 08:32 PM
Personally I think too often people equate disagreement on specific events as unwillingness of the disagreeing party to endure tribulation. For example... I know the end will come. I know that even IF the pre-trib theory is right, it doesn't preclude me from calamity or tasting martyrdom (as Christians in India very well know today!).

Yet most times I critique or disagree with someone's pet end-times theory, there is a sometimes explicit sometimes implicit accusation of having my head in the sand.

Does being of a post-trib belief necessitate that you believe Obama is the antichrist? Does it require me to believe the DOW being below 10K is the proof positive we're in the end times? Not as far as I can see!

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 09:00 PM
Personally I think too often people equate disagreement on specific events as unwillingness of the disagreeing party to endure tribulation. For example... I know the end will come. I know that even IF the pre-trib theory is right, it doesn't preclude me from calamity or tasting martyrdom (as Christians in India very well know today!).

Yet most times I critique or disagree with someone's pet end-times theory, there is a sometimes explicit sometimes implicit accusation of having my head in the sand.

Does being of a post-trib belief necessitate that you believe Obama is the antichrist? Does it require me to believe the DOW being below 10K is the proof positive we're in the end times? Not as far as I can see!

You're right. And people like me come to BF with my head full of a dogmatic tunnel-vision idea that just because I'm convinced that x is gonna lead to y, and then to z, and that "the scriptures prove it", then it must be the case. And people like you who disagree with me have their heads in the sand!

Go figure

Mograce2U
Oct 13th 2008, 10:08 PM
Yes, that is true. But when being serious about prophecy leads to arguments and dissention and squabbling between brothers, then rather not.

The trouble is (and I'm going to use you and me as a hypothetical example of every one of us), I'm very serious about prophecy - and I don't believe I'm speculating - yet you're just as serious about prophecy, and you don't believe you're speculating - yet we often disagree on our interpretation of prophecy. If our hearts are not in the right place, we're not going to love one another as Jesus loved us, and we're going to get mad at one another - this happens all too often as this Forum has shown time and again (not between you and me, but you know what I mean).

ananiasOk, using you and me. Searching the scriptures to find out how prophecy WAS fulfilled is a lot different than taking a wild leap into the unknown future where you cannot be certain of anything. Scripture does give us patterns or types and to me it seems we must learn & understand them first. Then at least we have some foundation for looking upon the future with an eye towards what the Lord is doing.

In order to work out a puzzle, it helps to have all the pieces. Though trial and error is still employed - at least you know the pieces are supposed to fit together! And as the pieces are put together a bigger picture comes into view. It doesn't seem to me that the Lord expected us to make our own pieces fit into His puzzle...

ananias
Oct 13th 2008, 10:24 PM
Ok, using you and me. Searching the scriptures to find out how prophecy WAS fulfilled is a lot different than taking a wild leap into the unknown future where you cannot be certain of anything. Scripture does give us patterns or types and to me it seems we must learn & understand them first. Then at least we have some foundation for looking upon the future with an eye towards what the Lord is doing.

In order to work out a puzzle, it helps to have all the pieces. Though trial and error is still employed - at least you know the pieces are supposed to fit together! And as the pieces are put together a bigger picture comes into view. It doesn't seem to me that the Lord expected us to make our own pieces fit into His puzzle...

But you see now you're proving my point - so now I'm going to use Jack and John as my hypothetical example. Jack says, I know and correctly interpret the historical patterns, and I'm correctly fitting the pieces of the puzzle together, and the Lord has given me the insight, wisdom and understanding of the things I say which are neccessary to place correctly fit the pieces of the puzzle.

But John says, "You're misinterpreting (a), (b) and (c) Jack, and therefore you've misinterpreted the way the future pattern fits with the historical pattern.

Both are convinceed they are right - yet each thinks the other has misunderstood or misinterpreted (a), (b) and (c) and is therefore misinterpreting (d), (e) and (f) - so who's actually right?

ananias

Dani H
Oct 13th 2008, 10:36 PM
so who's actually right?

God.

Last I checked, I'm not Him.


:)

Mograce2U
Oct 13th 2008, 11:55 PM
But you see now you're proving my point - so now I'm going to use Jack and John as my hypothetical example. Jack says, I know and correctly interpret the historical patterns, and I'm correctly fitting the pieces of the puzzle together, and the Lord has given me the insight, wisdom and understanding of the things I say which are neccessary to place correctly fit the pieces of the puzzle.

But John says, "You're misinterpreting (a), (b) and (c) Jack, and therefore you've misinterpreted the way the future pattern fits with the historical pattern.

Both are convinceed they are right - yet each thinks the other has misunderstood or misinterpreted (a), (b) and (c) and is therefore misinterpreting (d), (e) and (f) - so who's actually right?

ananiasYet they are not equally valid methods. Scripture does point us to utilize the method I am following. And it does so by giving us clues from what has gone before that it has told us about. Otherwise Exodus could not provide a type to study and apply when we see it used as an example. Nor Sodom, nor Nineveh, etc. How is the futurist going to lay his foundation? Because the morning newspaper depicts Islam as a beast to be reckoned with? I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, but that is what the futurist does when he looks to the world to try and understand prophetic signs. Whereas scripture roots its symbols in what has gone before. That is why the futurist (IMO) thinks the sun must literally turn black and the mood turn red and actual stars must fall from the sky - even though this is not how these symbols are used elsewhere. The symbol is pointing to something spiritual happening in the earth, not something physical/visible. Thats the first key to the puzzle that needs to be found, else hyper-literalism will lead to speculation - then it is a free for all.

All the OT prophets wrote about the Babylonian exile - an historical event we know was fulfilled; using the same language we see in Revelation. Maybe its just me, but it makes sense to follow their lead. And the NT gives us plenty of examples for how those things spoken back then applied to Christ. Things that were not made clear because their mystery was hidden until the time of Christ arrived. The One who gave us light, so we could know those things He fulfilled. The cross shines it light both past and forward to connect it all together for us. Yet we prefer to walk by the sparks of the fires we light.

(Isa 50:10-11) Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. {11} Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Roelof
Oct 14th 2008, 02:56 AM
Actually, Africa is united, under the banner of the African Union. .

third hero

I am from South Africa, you are right, these presidents already stick together, just look at Mugabe and Zimbabwe

paradiseinn
Oct 14th 2008, 05:55 AM
God.

Last I checked, I'm not Him.


:)

:lol: that was funny

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 07:17 AM
God.

Last I checked, I'm not Him.


:)

Amen, DaniHansen. I had in my mind the One who said,

"But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers. And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven. Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ." (Mat.23: 8-10)

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 07:42 AM
Yet they are not equally valid methods. Scripture does point us to utilize the method I am following. And it does so by giving us clues from what has gone before that it has told us about. Otherwise Exodus could not provide a type to study and apply when we see it used as an example. Nor Sodom, nor Nineveh, etc.

... scripture roots its symbols in what has gone before. That is why the futurist (IMO) thinks the sun must literally turn black and the mood turn red and actual stars must fall from the sky - even though this is not how these symbols are used elsewhere. The symbol is pointing to something spiritual happening in the earth, not something physical/visible. Thats the first key to the puzzle that needs to be found, else hyper-literalism will lead to speculation - then it is a free for all.

All the OT prophets wrote about the Babylonian exile - an historical event we know was fulfilled; using the same language we see in Revelation. Maybe its just me, but it makes sense to follow their lead.

I'm glad you mentioned that - because Moses is the one most of the Jews still follow. But Moses wasnt permitted to enter the promised land - he died in the wilderness. The Jews were led into their promised land - but under the leadership of Joshua, who isn't merely a type of Christ - his very name (Y'hoshua) is the name from which the name Yeshua (Jesus) is derived, and it means, Yah is salvation, the salvation of Yah.

An entire generation perished in the wilderness because of their unbelief (Heb.3: 10-19), and, with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, only the next generation was permitted to enter the promised land. Since the crucifixion of Messiah, every generation of Jacob has been perishing in a spiritual wilderness in unbelief, and there is a generation which will enter the promised land under the leadership of Yeshua:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Rom.11: 25-27)

Not only are there many historical patterns to show this fact which, as you correctly point out, should be taken note of when we interpret Biblical prophecy, but there are many prophecies in the Bible explicitly stating it - yet you say that those very propecies have already been fulfilled, and you ignore the historical patterns and the context of the scriptures, thus breaking yur own rule - and all because you've misinterpreted the relationship of the New Covenant to the promises and covenants God made with Abraham, Moses and David respectively, because you cannot see that the relationship of the New Covenant to the promises and covenants God made with Abraham and David is not the same as the relationsnhip of the New Covenant to the Mosaic Covenant, and you cannot understand that Gentiles are grafted into Israel among the remnant of Israel, and that the period during which the majorit of Israel's natural seed will be broken off and wandering in a spiritual wilderness in unbelief, is temporary and will last only unitl the second coming.

And yet you will say that I and everyone who agrees with me is wrong, and you understand that the way one interprets covenantal theology (i.e replacement theology vs covenantl theology) will have a domino-effect on the way one interprets Biblical prophecy. But you're convinced your interpretation of the Bible and its prophecies is correct and that of those of us who disagree with you is incorrect and flawed - and we're convinced your interpretation is incorrect and flawed by your covenantal theology, which is a flawed replacement theology.

So who's right? I think it's the One who said,

"But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers. And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven. Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ." (Mat.23: 8-10)

Mograce2U
Oct 14th 2008, 03:28 PM
Ananais,
Did the event of the cross reveal the truth of what was transpiring in the spiritual realm or was it the word of God? Jesus appeared to be condemned by the Jewish leaders because of blasphemy, and this was thought to be God's disapproval of Jesus and confirming His favor of what those men did. But the day of atonement revealed otherwise, when those men met with God's wrath and God manifested to the world that who He approved was those who belonged to Christ.

God must reveal to us spiritual truth because the earthly events do not tell the whole story. Israel was given 40 years to come to repentance and faith before that day of the Lord came. A day which would mean salvation for the righteous and condemnation for the wicked. The events themselves do not reveal all that transpired and was accomplished in the spiritual realm but the revelation from God does. All of which fulfilled the word of God given in the psalms, prophets and the law about what was to transpire when Messiah arrived to redeem Israel and turn ungodliness away from Jacob - in that generation which would witness His appearing.

A day of atonement beginning with John declaring Jesus as the Lamb of God and ending when every jot and tittle of the law was fulfilled and the old covenant then passed. But because we do not "see" the spiritual side of these things, we do not believe they have been accomplished. It is not Israel who is wandering all these years in the wilderness, it is the Church herself. Who much like those who were delivered from Egypt, failed to continue to believe and trust God to do what He said. And those who did not believe Moses died in that wilderness without entering the promised land, and this warning is given to us as well.

Why do you think the cross is set as our memorial? It is because it is there that the NT reveals to us what the hope of the old covenant was given for. And the 3 required feasts: unleavened bread, firstfruits and tabernacles - which followed the day of atonement, all pointed to, but hid it's mystery. That Christ would be all in all in His people and rule over them from heaven as Priest and King, dwelling among them and leading them thru this wilderness in the earth - until we come to a perfect knowledge of what He has done for us.

You can change all that with your eschatology and make the revelation given to us about unbelieving Israel if you want. But those who continue looking to Jesus and the cross to find their light will have a different perspective on these things.

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 08:43 PM
Ananais,

... You can change all that with your eschatology and make the revelation given to us about unbelieving Israel if you want...

... But those who continue looking to Jesus and the cross to find their light will have a different perspective on these things.

Thanks, Mograce2U (I hope Forgiven Alaskan forgives me for somehow managing to unwiliingly change the the topic of the OP into something completely different).

This is a typical example of what I said earlier in this thread about how Christians start to behave toward one another in the name of Jesus - all because of a disagreement about certain theologies and differences of understanding with regard to these theologies and eschatology.

But I love you brother, and I love you because I know that no matter what words you choose, you probably love Jesus as much as I do, and I know that Jesus loves both me and you, and He desires you and I to be together with Him in His Kingdom in unity - if not now, then when His Kingdom comes in full, when He Himself brings it by taking up Hs kingly rule and reigning all the world from His throne in Jerusalem.

So before I answer the things you said, please understand that none of this matters to me as much as obeying the command of the Lord to from the heart love my brothers and sisters in Christ as He loves Me. YOU are more important to me than the differences of understanding that you and I have about these things - because I know that YOU are important to Jesus.

The thing about what you are saying about the feasts, widerness sojourn etc applying spiritually to Christians is that it is true - but it's only half the truth.

It's man who separates the spiritual and the natural (physical) in his thinking and keeps them separate for all eternity - the gnostics did it, and the Dualists did it.

The gnostics taught that the spiritual and the natural (physical) will forever remain seperate because the spiritual is holy, whereas the natural (physical) is corrupt, and cannot be made holy. They even went so far as to say that Jesus did not come in the flesh, because the spiritual and the natural cannot be mixed.

But Jesus did not die and rise again from the dead in order to separate the spirtual and the natural - He died and rose again from the dead in order to undo the separation of the spiritual and the natural which had come about through death, which in turn came about through sin - and He is the One who sanctifies us.

When you apply God's promises to Abraham and to king David and to "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (the New Covenant promise in Jer.31: 31) in a spiritual way only, you are:-

(a) Doing exactly what the gnostics did - maintaining an eternal separation of the spiritual and the natural (physical); and

(b) Implying the following:

That for 2,000 years (from the time of Abraham to the time of Christ), even though God was making promise after promise (first to Abraham, and then his descendants), all along He was hiding a meaning from Abraham and his descendants which would

(a) take thousands of years to unravel; and

(b) prove to be completely alien to the plain and literal meaning of the wording of God's promises, covenants and prophecies; and

(c) Completely do away with what was originally promised to Abraham and his descendantsin grace.

It is true that the wilderness sojourn applies spiritually to us as Christians while we sojourn in this present world and age, and while we are waiting for the heavenly promised land (which is not in heaven, since even the New Jerusalem descends from Godout of heaven). But this fact is only half the truth. The whole truth is that the promises and prophecies and festivals which are filfilled spiritually, will also be fulfilled in a very real, physical and lietral way by Christ at the time of His second coming - there is ONE Messiah, and TWO advents.

And I will say again, none of this matters to me as much as obeying the command of the Lord to from the heart love my brothers and sisters in Christ as He loves Me. YOU are more important to me than the differences of understanding that you and I have about these things - because I know that YOU are important to Jesus.

God bless brother,

ananias

Mograce2U
Oct 15th 2008, 12:47 AM
:hug:Ananias,
You took the tone of my post wrong. By continuing to look to Jesus I mean that even in our eschatology we must do this. The idea that eschatology is "non-essential" to salvation would seem to be against what scripture says about the importance of prophecy. And as for the separation of the physical and the spiritual that was not my point at all. But there is a distinction from those born only once from those born twice. The greater reality is the spiritual because its source is heavenly, while the earth is but a shadow of what exists in that realm. To me spiritual does not equate to ethereal, except in the sense that we do not perceive its existence with our earthly senses. So when discussing what will come upon the earth a distinction needs to be made as to whom it is coming to. A heavenly realm upon the earth is for a people made suitable to dwell there.

Anyway you are right all this is off topic. Back to those head in the sand people...

Blessings to you too :hug: