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ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 13th 2008, 06:04 AM
Hello Fellows;

Well you know:

-Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.


And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 1:16 >>

The question, or what I would like to chat with you about is this Matthias, we do not know what has become of him. But not like this with Paul.

So was Paul supposed to take Judas Iscariot`s place?

And to give forth lots, was not a Christian practice because in the book of John chapter 19 verse 24:

They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

So the roman soldiers also used that method, so if the disciples in stead of giving forth their lots would have done as the servant of Abraham called Eliezer in Genesis 15, who prayed and asked God`s will to know who would be the God`s chosen wife for Abraham`s son, then probably Paul would have been called, who knows, the Lord knows :D.

Thanks for your comments before hand.

Go well


______________________
Peace and so forth

-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation..."[Salvation from what?.]
-Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with
exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

(Romans 1:16; John 8:34; Jude 1:24-25.)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5459/natureavyty7.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3020/lifesigyyt9.gif

Literalist-Luke
Oct 13th 2008, 06:39 AM
Hello Fellows;

Well you know:

-Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.


And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 1:16 >>

The question, or what I would like to chat with you about is this Matthias, we do not know what has become of him. But not like this with Paul.

So was Paul supposed to take Judas Iscariot`s place?

And to give forth lots, was not a Christian practice because in the book of John chapter 19 verse 24:

They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

So the roman soldiers also used that method, so if the disciples in stead of giving forth their lots would have done as the servant of Abraham called Eliezer in Genesis 15, who prayed and asked God`s will to know who would be the God`s chosen wife for Abraham`s son, then probably Paul would have been called, who knows, the Lord knows :D.

Thanks for your comments before hand.

Go well


______________________
Peace and so forth

-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation..."[Salvation from what?.]
-Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with
exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

(Romans 1:16; John 8:34; Jude 1:24-25.)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5459/natureavyty7.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3020/lifesigyyt9.gifMy best answer to your question is "maybe". Sorry, I really don't have a definite yes or no. I'm not sure how anybody could have a definite no or yes. If you've been reading my posts around here, you've seen that I have no shortage of opinions about anything and everything. :D On this issue, however, it's just hard to say.

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 07:57 AM
Hi Forerunner,
Scripture says - the lot went to Matthias to “replace” Judas. As you know.
Drawing lots was frowned upon, but with an “all things being equal” situation and no other information to go on, it may have been used as a coin toss.

Apparently, Jesus had other plans to fill this slot, Saul of Tarsus - which may be why the disciples never got an answer for which replacement was suitable.

The disciples didn’t have the “vision” to understand what the Lord was about to do - as the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on them, and Paul was still Saul, a Jewish zealot.

I don’t think Paul was the 13th Apostle in Jesus’ eyes.
He was a “perfect” ironic replacement for the “disciple” turned betrayer – a “zealous persecutor" soon to be turned impassioned proponent.

In Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 Jesus said the disciples would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel - to be fulfilled in Revelation 20:4.
I think Paul will have a throne rather than Matthias.

What happened to Matthias?
Probably Google would have some info on: matthias the apostle

Richard

Partaker of Christ
Oct 13th 2008, 06:00 PM
I don't have a settled answer to this question.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

It would seem from the above, that the Holy Spirit has confirmed the twelve.

1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

Question:
Is the 'office of bishop' [bishopric, overseer] the same office/work as that of 'apostle'?

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take.

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 06:38 PM
Paul certainly considered himself an apostle - although, aside from trying to dispel some false teachings – he tried to be humble about it.

Certainly, Matthias was also an apostle.
It seemed good to have the proper number of 12 present during the beginning and Paul was elsewhere for four years. (Gal 2;1,2)

However there are only 12 thrones promised – and we know that Judas won’t be using one of them.
Unless there's going to be game of musical thrones (I kid), I would think that Paul would occupy the twelfth.
He did bring the gospel to the gentiles and he did write a good portion of the New Testament.

I just can’t see how the Apostle, Matthias would trump the Apostle Paul.
Neither would the Apostle Barnabus.

Of course, Jesus would think all my conjecture is somewhat foolish. :blush: [Mark 9:34,35]

Richard

petepet
Oct 13th 2008, 07:02 PM
Hi Forerunner,
Scripture says - the lot went to Matthias to “replace” Judas. As you know.
Drawing lots was frowned upon, but with an “all things being equal” situation and no other information to go on, it may have been used as a coin toss.

But the Urim and the Thummim worked by casting lots. Thus it had Scriptural precedent. It would, however, be unnecessary after Pentecost.

Apparently, Jesus had other plans to fill this slot, Saul of Tarsus - which may be why the disciples never got an answer for which replacement was suitable.

The disciples didn’t have the “vision” to understand what the Lord was about to do - as the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on them, and Paul was still Saul, a Jewish zealot.

I don’t think Paul was the 13th Apostle in Jesus’ eyes.
He was a “perfect” ironic replacement for the “disciple” turned betrayer – a “zealous persecutor" soon to be turned impassioned proponent.

But the twelve were the Apostles of Israel. Paul and Barnabas were the Apostles to the Gentiles. God demonstrated His acceptance of Matthias by his parallel activities with the other Apostles in Acts 1-12 over a number of years.

In Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 Jesus said the disciples would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel - to be fulfilled in Revelation 20:4.
I think Paul will have a throne rather than Matthias.

This was fulfilled on and after Pentecost when the disciples 'ruled' over the church, the new Israel. Revelation 20.4 was of course speaking about the period between Pentecost and Christ's coming

What happened to Matthias?
Probably Google would have some info on: matthias the apostle


Richard

Just read Acts 1-11 and when it says 'the Apostles' read 'Matthias' and you will discover how active he was.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 13th 2008, 07:29 PM
O.k. thanks for the coments so far.

Another question, what do you think about the method of voting in the church for Important matters? spiritual matters?


God bless


______________________
Peace and so forth

-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation..."[Salvation from what?.]
-Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with
exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

(Romans 1:16; John 8:34; Jude 1:24-25.)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5459/natureavyty7.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3020/lifesigyyt9.gif

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 07:30 PM
Just read Acts 1-11 and when it says 'the Apostles' read 'Matthias' and you will discover how active he was.
Yes, the Urim and the Thummim were two stones the Chief Priest kept under his breastplate and used at times - eventhough "divination" was frowned upon.

If you read the other post, which I'm sure you didn't get a chance to see - Matthias was an Apostle too. :)

As for the casting of lots not being nessessary AFTER Pentecost - the casting was done in Acts 1:26 - Pentecost happened in Acts 2.

Of course, God accepted Matthias. It's obvious that were 14 Apostles if you count Barnabus.


This was fulfilled on and after Pentecost when the disciples 'ruled' over the church, the new Israel. Revelation 20.4 was of course speaking about the period between Pentecost and Christ's coming

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. …
Revelation 20:4

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 13th 2008, 09:05 PM
Yes, the Urim and the Thummim were two stones the Chief Priest kept under his breastplate and used at times - eventhough "divination" was frowned upon.

If you read the other post, which I'm sure you didn't get a chance to see - Matthias was an Apostle too. :)

As for the casting of lots not being nessessary AFTER Pentecost - the casting was done in Acts 1:26 - Pentecost happened in Acts 2.

Of course, God accepted Matthias. It's obvious that were 14 Apostles if you count Barnabus...


Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. …
Revelation 20:4

-offtopic- Know ye not that we shall judge [fallen] angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:3

Even before Pentecost took place, when did Jesus taught the disciples to cast lots ? :rolleyes:

And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed. Mark 1:35

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10.

Be good

__________________
Peace, and so forth

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5459/natureavyty7.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3020/lifesigyyt9.gif

Richard H
Oct 13th 2008, 09:17 PM
-offtopic- Know ye not that we shall judge [fallen] angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:3

Even before Pentecost took place, when did Jesus taught the disciples to cast lots ? :rolleyes:

And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed. Mark 1:35

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10.

L.O.L.
I think they were feeling sort of desperate & powerless :rolleyes: and just couldn't decide who should fill the role.

larry2
Oct 14th 2008, 02:53 AM
Matthias replaced Judas, and casting lots was commonly practiced through Israel as a means of selection. Also Matthias would be one to sit upon a throne judging the tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

As far as Paul was concerned he was not one of the twelve, He was one born out of due time, given a message reveled to him by the risen Christ that was hidden from all the rest to the disciples, and he was the apostle of the Gentiles, and Jesus will judge men by what Paul wrote.

Blessings in Jesus' name