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moonglow
Oct 13th 2008, 08:23 PM
end times stuff that probably won't happen...

Dow sees biggest runup ever
Blue-chip indicator jumps over 800 points, topping the 9,200 level, its biggest one-day advance on a point basis ever. (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2008101310)

Ok I am going to say something and try very hard not to offend people on here as I love you all dearly...but I have a big problem with folks using very temporary things in this world as a measure as to how close we are to the tribulation/Second Coming. Things like this have happened in the past and also affected the whole world's economy too! And it will probably continue being up and down for awhile then settle back to normal. I just really think its wrong to gauge the whole time ends on this..though I realize to the benefit of many of you, you aren't just using this but also watching other things too of course and believe its all coming together...but if this one big thing you were watching doesn't go as you thought it would..then what? Do you watch for something else to happen then?

That is what I usually see happen on these things....first its wild fires ...or a major earthquake somewhere, bad spring weather ...then that all dies down and nothing more is said about it...then something new comes along and everyone says ok this is it! Then that dies down out of the media ...so everyone watches for something else...and its this constant jumping around watching world events that are always changing yet the bible doesn't change... that bothers me alot.

Its like what is everyone going to do if you know who doesn't get elected for president...then you will have to look for someone else to be the AC and then that person doesn't pan out either so you look for someone else. (I have seen this happening like that for many years). Meanwhile the board is FILLED with posts where people are totally convinced...carved in stone, this..whatever is happening at the time..is it! Its true! Time is short because of such and such events and would give their left kidney over cause its so true...then it all fades away as things die down and its off to pointing to something else.

Does anyone else have a problem with this besides me?

I truly, truly do not want to hurt anyone or make anyone angry...or offend. But this is what I see on here...:( Its just I am 47 years old and have see this happening my whole life...and it never pans out like everyone is convinced it should. Maybe the problem is we are looking at the 'world' for answer to bible prophesies? To the media we know never tells us the whole truth and distorts what it does tell us? I don't know. All I know is something isn't working here doing it this way...

God bless

vinsight4u8
Oct 13th 2008, 08:26 PM
I watch for the Palestinians to fall.

Romans8:15
Oct 13th 2008, 08:45 PM
i am new here I see what you are saying I am only in my twenties and have seen this in my lifetime. I do agree, I would say Idk to much about this stuff but the Lord says to watch and be ready so all of the hype will probably never change but I think we should never completely claim a truth as to what will happen unless its in his word. Anyway I hope that made sense

slightlypuzzled
Oct 13th 2008, 08:51 PM
end times stuff that probably won't happen...

Dow sees biggest runup ever
Blue-chip indicator jumps over 800 points, topping the 9,200 level, its biggest one-day advance on a point basis ever. (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2008101310)

Ok I am going to say something and try very hard not to offend people on here as I love you all dearly...but I have a big problem with folks using very temporary things in this world as a measure as to how close we are to the tribulation/Second Coming. Things like this have happened in the past and also affected the whole world's economy too! And it will probably continue being up and down for awhile then settle back to normal. I just really think its wrong to gauge the whole time ends on this..though I realize to the benefit of many of you, you aren't just using this but also watching other things too of course and believe its all coming together...but if this one big thing you were watching doesn't go as you thought it would..then what? Do you watch for something else to happen then?

That is what I usually see happen on these things....first its wild fires ...or a major earthquake somewhere, bad spring weather ...then that all dies down and nothing more is said about it...then something new comes along and everyone says ok this is it! Then that dies down out of the media ...so everyone watches for something else...and its this constant jumping around watching world events that are always changing yet the bible doesn't change... that bothers me alot.

Its like what is everyone going to do if you know who doesn't get elected for president...then you will have to look for someone else to be the AC and then that person doesn't pan out either so you look for someone else. (I have seen this happening like that for many years). Meanwhile the board is FILLED with posts where people are totally convinced...carved in stone, this..whatever is happening at the time..is it! Its true! Time is short because of such and such events and would give their left kidney over cause its so true...then it all fades away as things die down and its off to pointing to something else.

Does anyone else have a problem with this besides me?

I truly, truly do not want to hurt anyone or make anyone angry...or offend. But this is what I see on here...:( Its just I am 47 years old and have see this happening my whole life...and it never pans out like everyone is convinced it should. Maybe the problem is we are looking at the 'world' for answer to bible prophesies? To the media we know never tells us the whole truth and distorts what it does tell us? I don't know. All I know is something isn't working here doing it this way...

God bless

As you know, I have the same problem. When we graft our prophetic biases, whichever side, onto present history, we can be thrown for a loop if things get better, or worse in a hurry. We, as Christians are in this for the daily 'grind', and Paul left some very good advice to the Ephesians:


10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Paul told the Romans to give themselves, each day, as a sacrifice to God to be transformed into Ones who knew and understood God's will and investment in their lives...

Cherish
Oct 13th 2008, 08:55 PM
I know what you mean. But it never hurts to be ready at all times. I feel that today may have been a one time to one week thing. I honestly don't think that the stock market will continue this way. But that is my own opinion. I think this may give everyone a false sense of security.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 13th 2008, 09:05 PM
With all due respect, if you have a big problem with it.

Many do believe we are very much nearer the last days. It is not wrong to look for the signs of the season.
Just because there have been many false signs, that does not mean we should stop looking.

A watchman does not stop keeping watch with great diligence, just because of many false alarms.

I guess that in the days of Noah, they thought it could not rain because they saw no clouds.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

HisLeast
Oct 13th 2008, 09:14 PM
I guess that in the days of Noah, they thought it could not rain because they saw no clouds.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Neither was Noah wrong about the specifics of the coming calamity. While I won't speak for Moonglow, we've seen over the past couple months some very specific interpretations of end-times events with pretty explicit accusations that those not accepting the interpretation need to be "shaken", "woken up", and "are in a spiritual stupor".

Trust me when I say I know the end is coming. Every day I pray and worry about what I can do to prepare. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with every interpretation that hits the boards.

markdrums
Oct 13th 2008, 09:20 PM
end times stuff that probably won't happen...

Dow sees biggest runup ever
Blue-chip indicator jumps over 800 points, topping the 9,200 level, its biggest one-day advance on a point basis ever. (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2008101310)

Ok I am going to say something and try very hard not to offend people on here as I love you all dearly...but I have a big problem with folks using very temporary things in this world as a measure as to how close we are to the tribulation/Second Coming. Things like this have happened in the past and also affected the whole world's economy too! And it will probably continue being up and down for awhile then settle back to normal. I just really think its wrong to gauge the whole time ends on this..though I realize to the benefit of many of you, you aren't just using this but also watching other things too of course and believe its all coming together...but if this one big thing you were watching doesn't go as you thought it would..then what? Do you watch for something else to happen then?

That is what I usually see happen on these things....first its wild fires ...or a major earthquake somewhere, bad spring weather ...then that all dies down and nothing more is said about it...then something new comes along and everyone says ok this is it! Then that dies down out of the media ...so everyone watches for something else...and its this constant jumping around watching world events that are always changing yet the bible doesn't change... that bothers me alot.

Its like what is everyone going to do if you know who doesn't get elected for president...then you will have to look for someone else to be the AC and then that person doesn't pan out either so you look for someone else. (I have seen this happening like that for many years). Meanwhile the board is FILLED with posts where people are totally convinced...carved in stone, this..whatever is happening at the time..is it! Its true! Time is short because of such and such events and would give their left kidney over cause its so true...then it all fades away as things die down and its off to pointing to something else.

Does anyone else have a problem with this besides me?

I truly, truly do not want to hurt anyone or make anyone angry...or offend. But this is what I see on here...:( Its just I am 47 years old and have see this happening my whole life...and it never pans out like everyone is convinced it should. Maybe the problem is we are looking at the 'world' for answer to bible prophesies? To the media we know never tells us the whole truth and distorts what it does tell us? I don't know. All I know is something isn't working here doing it this way...

God bless


EXACTLY!
Well put Moonglow!

We shouldn't refer to "current events / news headlines" to help interpret scripture. We should (and NEED TO) stay within the Bible itself for that.

The key to understanding "End Times" and the New Testament as a whole, is to have a better understanding of the OLD TESTAMENT.
Learning the metaphors, & hyperboles used in the OT, as well as knowing the writing styles (Poetry, historical narratives, apocalyptic, etc..) is THE KEY in understanding the true context of NT scripture.

Don't look at CNN, or Wall Street as your guide to Revelation....

Partaker of Christ
Oct 13th 2008, 09:31 PM
Neither was Noah wrong about the specifics of the coming calamity. While I won't speak for Moonglow, we've seen over the past couple months some very specific interpretations of end-times events with pretty explicit accusations that those not accepting the interpretation need to be "shaken", "woken up", and "are in a spiritual stupor".

Trust me when I say I know the end is coming. Every day I pray and worry about what I can do to prepare. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with every interpretation that hits the boards.

We have seen it for a number of years, but again we will get many false alarms. Of course we do not agree with every interpretation, but we should 'watch' and 'pray'

Jesus said that He would come as a thief. He said that when He comes, He would come quickly, and at a time we do not suspect.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 13th 2008, 10:04 PM
I agree with you Moonglow... that doesnt make people complacement in looking for the Blessed Hope.... or anybody else who isn't making every earthquake or election the coming of the anti christ....

Instead of looking towards Wall Street one would just have to look at how TRUTH is being taken and distorted.. lies and untruths are accepted for Truth.. anybody who stands for Truth will be mocked and ridiculed.. calling 'evil' good and 'good' evil.. this done on a global scale and done thru man made 'religous' groups and movements.. as well as the planet as a whole.......

Many who stand for Truth.. will often find themselves like Jesus was before Pontious Pilate... and him asking Jesus...'what is truth?" standing in judgement and questioned by those who do not follow truth...

Taking a 'spiritual' pulse of peoples beliefs, who they follow ,and 'WHAT' they consider to be TRUTH.. would be much better than watching Wallstreet... its ups and downs.. and every time it goes low its the Tribulation or Great Tribulation...... or the mark of the beast...

In regards to Wall Street and the global economy...

Jesus own Words were that..

As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man... they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded, they were given in marriage...

According to His words.. these will be very prosperous times... building, planting , buying, selling... I have a hard time with people who call any downturn in the Stock market .. the 'end of the world'.. 'Armeggedon.....or the start of the Tribulation... this does not match with what Jesus spoke about will be the 'climate' at His return..

Also in Noah's days they never believed him that it was going to rain.. The same today.. many don't believe the Jesus the Christ is physically returning to this earth.. they laugh, mock it.. even many in so called Christians groups or denominations... such is the same with His 2nd Coming.. the disbelief... it will be just as was in Noahs day.. when He went into the Ark.. and God Himself ' shut' the door... to the ark... the same with the 2nd Coming of Jesus the Christ...

His Own words were that it would come all those that dwell on the earth.. like a 'trap'.. to 'try' those that dwell on the earth... just as it was when Noah was building and the day He went into the Ark and God shut the door..

When they shall say 'peace' and 'safety'.. then shall sudden destruction come upon them...



We are to watch.. and pray always.. that we may be counted worthy to escape those things that are coming to this planet and its inhabitants.. and to stand before the Son of Man...

OneTime
Oct 13th 2008, 10:14 PM
The stock market rebounding for one day is also NOT a sign that things are "going back to normal". Completely away from the prophecy, the United States, and the world, has changed in an enormous way the past few weeks as our false wealth built on lies, credit and greed, has been called in. We are no longer, nor will we ever again be the economic superpower we were. The American century is over. Look, read, investigate the signs of the times. What we have considered "normal" is going away. And just like a women who just conceived a child, the first signs are going to be a lot smaller and subtle the actual process and outcome of having a baby.

As far as to what this has to do with end times, IDK.

markedward
Oct 13th 2008, 10:43 PM
"A charismatic candidate is running for president! It's the antichrist!" Who, FDR?

"The worldwide stock market is going downhill! The mark of the beast is coming!" You mean there'll be a second great depression?

"A huge war is coming that will involve the whole world! It's escalating in foreign countries!" What? World War II?

All of the alleged "signs" that people are clamoring about are things that have already happened in the past and on the same scale. Just because one (economically and politically) strong nation is on a downhill slope doesn't mean the whole world is coming to an end. Just because a certain political candidate has lots of attention and such doesn't mean he's the antichrist.

A number of decades ago, people were living through a terrible economic depression, saw the uprising of an incredibly charismatic political candidate, and witnessed the millions of people die. They at least had a good enough reason to believe they were living in the end-times because they were in the middle of events that at the least resembled prophecies found in the Bible. We, on the other hand, haven't even seen anything get fulfilled yet, and we're already shouting "The end is near"?

What is going on here is people are calling out "Wolf!" before they even see one.

HisLeast
Oct 13th 2008, 11:43 PM
The stock market rebounding for one day is also NOT a sign that things are "going back to normal".
Completely agree. But its funny how many people will say "one day isn't a rally". Especially in the face of all those who went end-times crazy when the DOW first dropped by 400 in one day a month ago.


We are no longer, nor will we ever again be the economic superpower we were. The American century is over. Look, read, investigate the signs of the times.
Since you've been to the future, could you answer some questions for me on an upcoming horse race?

moonglow
Oct 14th 2008, 01:06 AM
Thanks for all the comments, both pro and con. I realize this is a touchy subject. I also am not so naive to think we are out of the woods in regards to what happened in the stock market. Alot of damage has been done that can't be undone though I am hoping the little guy (which is many of us) won't be hurt so badly if the stock market does start doing better...and I realize one good day might mean it stays good or not.. as I said I image it will be very up and down for awhile but it will stabilize. But honestly...when we have a huge drop people go on and on about it..have a really good day and its gets wrote off?

American doesn't have to stay being a great nation to have any impact on the end times either. Nations have risen and fallen in the last two thousand years and beyond and will continue to rise and fall. I don't see that as being important.

I think theBelovedDisciple made some excellent points..why would the 'world' be concerned about anything if the market, along with other things, was going well? As in the description of Noah...why would the world be going about its business if everything was falling apart..whether through the markets or the weather or natural disasters to suddenly be taken by surprise. So maybe everyone is focusing on the wrong things! Just something to consider.

Also I am not saying we should stop looking by any means or not be on watch...I am just saying as some others pointed out...crying wolf all the time does cause people to get their hopes up...or their anxiety..depending on what they are watching for...then only to be let down time and time again and finally quit watching. Its harms our faith to keep doing this. We will grow complacence. Its the danger they talk about in warning those in Florida time and time again to get ready for this terrible hurricane...get boarded up and leave..then nothing happens or its only minor. After so many false alarms people stop listening and won't leave. The same thing is happening here. People stop listening to those sounding the alarm after years of so many false ones...

When I first joined this board in 2002...well after they got enough members...lol...the focus on the end times was ON Israel...on what Islam was doing...on all the major religions..On the church and how so many were falling into corruption...on how many Jews were coming to Christ...that sort of thing. Much more on the spiritual rather then the material and seemed to make more sense actually in regards to scriptures.

Of course the media was paying more attention to Israel then because of the suicide bombers...but why is our attention so manipulated and directed by what the secular media is talking about? Should it be that way? Seems like the rest of the world is forgotten on here by many (not all) unless there is something major in the media going on...big earth quake (which all these people live on fault lines so its going to happen) some big bombing...otherwise the only time I see Israel mentioned is in regards to scriptures but not what is happening over there now. If the media doesn't report it we don't know! We have no clue! We are totally relying on a secular media to give us information to then try to match with scripture...(if we are even suppose to be doing that I am really questioning)

When Jesus talked about watching the signs of the times what was He watching? The money market? Money was a big thing to many then too. How many of you know how the economy worked back then?

Was He talking about who the next Roman ruler might be? If that ruler might be worse then the last? What was His main focus in the time He was here?

Seems like to me His biggest focus was on the current religion...on the spiritual corruption or well being of the Jews..then the gentiles. The focus has always been on the spiritual.

I don't know what all the answers are to this...I just know we keep going down the rabbits hole and popping back up only to start all over again and its really going nowhere.

God bless

danield
Oct 14th 2008, 02:54 AM
I just want to mention that I have been watching these events closely over the last several years. And although, I do not want to be an alarmist, I want to bring out some extremely important information that we all need to know. We have witnessed some incredible events financially this past month that I might add, have NEVER happened before in history. Of course markets have fallen especially in a time of war when one side looses the conflict, but what we are seeing is a huge transfer of wealth and the markets are adjusting wildly. However this is not what is unique. All governments around the world are coming together with a plan to revitalize the global economy. Just this past weekend, our capitalistic government has decided to take equity positions in stocks. Granted they are preferred stocks, but it is still ownership in lieu of an infusion of capital in the private sector. This alone is an important part of history especially living in a democratic society, but more importantly, we are seeing governments around the world up the anti enormously to protect adjusting markets. Now the importance to us as Christians is what happens when the markets free fall even with government intervention? A new system has to be established.

I never ever thought the government would have interceded this drastically to protect the major money centers. I always assumed they would allow the markets to adjust accordingly and then step in to protect the worker who is at the core of all economies. However, instead of stimulating the people’s ability to work they stimulated their ability to borrow more efficiently. There is a trade off on the maintenance of credit markets, but the one major factor that always rules the credit market is ones ability to pay back a loan based on people’s real income. If oil spikes substantially with the governments of the world so deeply influenced in the markets, it could lead to a radical change in the way we live because then our very own governments will be busted.

In simple terms, the governments of the world have sweetened the pot considerably in order to maintain status quo.

Again, I do not want to be an alarmist because so many of you are tired of reading predictions of what is to come. We all know what the scripture basically says is to come, and we read it and debate it everyday. But what we are witnessing just may very well be the preclude to how governments intervene in the future. And at some point they may have to unite to cover loss bets that they can not cover. I am not predicting these things will happen tomorrow so don’t go out tomorrow and “put” the market because these markets should stabilize. I do see stabilization of the markets for a while. But it is how this world came together and acted in concert to resolve the situation (especially the equity position) that has left me stunned for the moment. Good post moonglow in bringing comfort to all by calming fears of failed prophesy predicted. And I am soooo sorry for posting my concerns, but with all we have witnessed, I did have to speak out.

God Bless.

PS Please do not be concerned from what I have written because God will always look out after his flock. I just think it gives me great faith to know that we stand on his rock so that we can weathered any storm that comes against us with his help!

Matthew 7:24-25 24 ¶ "Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. 25 Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won't collapse because it is built on bedrock.

Matthew 6:26-32 26 Look at the birds. They don't plant or harvest or store food in barns, for your heavenly Father feeds them. And aren't you far more valuable to him than they are? 27 Can all your worries add a single moment to your life? 28 "And why worry about your clothing? Look at the lilies of the field and how they grow. They don't work or make their clothing, 29 yet Solomon in all his glory was not dressed as beautifully as they are. 30 And if God cares so wonderfully for wildflowers that are here today and thrown into the fire tomorrow, he will certainly care for you. Why do you have so little faith? 31 "So don't worry about these things, saying, 'What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?' 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs.

moonglow
Oct 14th 2008, 03:02 AM
EXACTLY!
Well put Moonglow!

We shouldn't refer to "current events / news headlines" to help interpret scripture. We should (and NEED TO) stay within the Bible itself for that.

The key to understanding "End Times" and the New Testament as a whole, is to have a better understanding of the OLD TESTAMENT.
Learning the metaphors, & hyperboles used in the OT, as well as knowing the writing styles (Poetry, historical narratives, apocalyptic, etc..) is THE KEY in understanding the true context of NT scripture.

Don't look at CNN, or Wall Street as your guide to Revelation....

Excellent post..sorry before I didn't have time to reply to everyone's post on here. I think yea we need to be more focused on the bible and for sure less on CNN...:rolleyes:

I think the danger too is focusing so much on what the media says is it doesn't give us a well rounded view of things..but a very slanted view filled many times with partial facts and misinformation and causes people to see things 'their way'...which is true also of FOX and MSN and all the others. We have to be very, very careful in that. I have to say I also get very frustrated with the Christian news on the radio as so many times they also overly focus on the negative and not enough on the positive. But at least they report things we do not hear about on the news and do a little daily report on some things happening in Israel. I can't even say when the last time was I heard anything about Israel other then they had their New Year the first of this month....otherwise I have no clue what's going on over there...:rolleyes: ( I mean spiritually). With so many things flying around (or being overlooked totally) at times it hard to know which way to look...or if we should at all. :hmm:

God bless

moonglow
Oct 14th 2008, 03:22 AM
I just want to mention that I have been watching these events closely over the last several years. And although, I do not want to be an alarmist, I want to bring out some extremely important information that we all need to know. We have witnessed some incredible events financially this past month that I might add, have NEVER happened before in history. Of course markets have fallen especially in a time of war when one side looses the conflict, but what we are seeing is a huge transfer of wealth and the markets are adjusting wildly. However this is not what is unique. All governments around the world are coming together with a plan to revitalize the global economy. Just this past weekend, our capitalistic government has decided to take equity positions in stocks. Granted they are preferred stocks, but it is still ownership in lieu of an infusion of capital in the private sector. This alone is an important part of history especially living in a democratic society, but more importantly, we are seeing governments around the world up the anti enormously to protect adjusting markets. Now the importance to us as Christians is what happens when the markets free fall even with government intervention? A new system has to be established.

I never ever thought the government would have interceded this drastically to protect the major money centers. I always assumed they would allow the markets to adjust accordingly and then step in to protect the worker who is at the core of all economies. However, instead of stimulating the people’s ability to work they stimulated their ability to borrow more efficiently. There is a trade off on the maintenance of credit markets, but the one major factor that always rules the credit market is ones ability to pay back a loan based on people’s real income. If oil spikes substantially with the governments of the world so deeply influenced in the markets, it could lead to a radical change in the way we live because then our very own governments will be busted.

In simple terms, the governments of the world have sweetened the pot considerably in order to maintain status quo.

Again, I do not want to be an alarmist because so many of you are tired of reading predictions of what is to come. We all know what the scripture basically says is to come, and we read it and debate it everyday. But what we are witnessing just may very well be the preclude to how governments intervene in the future. And at some point they may have to unite to cover loss bets that they can not cover. I am not predicting these things will happen tomorrow so don’t go out tomorrow and “put” the market because these markets should stabilize. I do see stabilization of the markets for a while. But it is how this world came together and acted in concert to resolve the situation (especially the equity position) that has left me stunned for the moment. Good post moonglow in bringing comfort to all by calming fears of failed prophesy predicted. And I am soooo sorry for posting my concerns, but with all we have witnessed, I did have to speak out.

God Bless.

PS Please do not be concerned from what I have written because God will always look out after his flock. I just think it gives me great faith to know that we stand on his rock so that we can weathered any storm that comes against us with his help!

Matthew 7:24-25 24 ¶ "Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. 25 Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won't collapse because it is built on bedrock.

Matthew 6:26-32 26 Look at the birds. They don't plant or harvest or store food in barns, for your heavenly Father feeds them. And aren't you far more valuable to him than they are? 27 Can all your worries add a single moment to your life? 28 "And why worry about your clothing? Look at the lilies of the field and how they grow. They don't work or make their clothing, 29 yet Solomon in all his glory was not dressed as beautifully as they are. 30 And if God cares so wonderfully for wildflowers that are here today and thrown into the fire tomorrow, he will certainly care for you. Why do you have so little faith? 31 "So don't worry about these things, saying, 'What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?' 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs.

I understand. I do.

I think we all know we will be hearing about this mess for a long time..and congress will be calling in those responsible (at least some of them) and holding them accountable and we will all watch the questions and answers sessions that will go on and on and on...and things will change and be rearranged and all that...it will take a long time to get it straightened out! Sure! And of course the regular joe is worried about having to pay back all this money the government is using to bail out wall street of course. Programs will be cut...the poorest of the poor will be hurt the most and already has been...of course. This whole thing reminds me of when they were about to run out of social security money way back when and things got all hairy then too! Supposedly we should have run out of SS money ages ago...:rolleyes:

Meanwhile the war and immigration and health care and all those other issues everyone thought was so important has suddenly been totally forgotten about! Or at least taken a back seat...

Meanwhile they will still be playing pro football and the kids will still go to school and the news will still churn away. I always think its strange when major things happen and the day to day stuff keeps going on...

I was watching Dust bowl days on the history channel the other day where people had no SS to fall back on...no welfare, no food stamps...their crops dried up, their cattle dropping dead from the dust storms...where people were inhaling dirt..where farms were lost to the government and put up for auctions..the penny auctions they called them. Other farmers bidding low so the family had a chance to buy it back. The hollow look in people's eyes of being defeated. The long lines to soup kitchens. I know alot of people are hurting and alot lost their homes and due to cut backs even the homeless shelters can't put everyone up...but its still nothing like it was in the Great Depression and the end didn't come then and it won't now solely based on this. They expect more bank failures but they even said on the news the bank failures now is nothing compared to the GD.

yes its scary and yes it will be hard for many and we need to pray for them. I have been praying like crazy for the Lord to pull us out of this because its the little guy that gets hurt the worse! Those hurt the worse that had nothing at all to do with this mess to start with. They will lose their homes because they lost their jobs!

I know some think America needs judgment to come by God due to so many sins in our nation but I know plenty of other nations that have no belief in God and do much worse things. Its not about which nation is more godly or less sinful. God is about grace...not about who deserves His mercy and who doesn't. Judgment will come soon enough to everyone anyway.

Sorry for the ramble...I am tired.

God bless

larry2
Oct 14th 2008, 03:25 AM
Agree with you, and thr trickle down effect hasn't reached me yet

OneTime
Oct 14th 2008, 03:34 AM
Ummm, well, if you simply look at what the worldwide economy has become, and currently is, and where our dollar is at, and is heading, not to mention the opinions of just about everyone who knows what they are talking about, you'd see that what I said is true.

What a garbage straw man comment about "betting on a horse". That has nothing to do with what I said, nor is it anywhere near the same thing, but I'll put it out there like this.

There is a horse race, and the one that was considered the greatest horse of all time, and should be favored, is coming to the gate broken down. The owner took out huge loans against the horse's future, and when he ran through that money spending it on hedonistic things, he had to lay off his expert training staff. The new trainer, an unknown from overseas fed the horse too many steroids and over trained the horse, and now with several minor, and major, injuries, not to mention an overweight and blind jockey mounting this horse today, he heads to the gate against over a dozen horses who are in superior condition, with nowhere near the injuries, great training and nutrition and far better jockeys. Our used to be favorite will be starting from the outside post with a 10 second lag behind the others, but don't worry, all of this is just a blip. Everything will be normal like it always has been, and so on and so on.

No, I am NOT going to bet on this horse.

Read up.

Saved7
Oct 14th 2008, 04:15 AM
end times stuff that probably won't happen...

Dow sees biggest runup ever
Blue-chip indicator jumps over 800 points, topping the 9,200 level, its biggest one-day advance on a point basis ever. (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2008101310)

Ok I am going to say something and try very hard not to offend people on here as I love you all dearly...but I have a big problem with folks using very temporary things in this world as a measure as to how close we are to the tribulation/Second Coming. Things like this have happened in the past and also affected the whole world's economy too! And it will probably continue being up and down for awhile then settle back to normal. I just really think its wrong to gauge the whole time ends on this..though I realize to the benefit of many of you, you aren't just using this but also watching other things too of course and believe its all coming together...but if this one big thing you were watching doesn't go as you thought it would..then what? Do you watch for something else to happen then?

That is what I usually see happen on these things....first its wild fires ...or a major earthquake somewhere, bad spring weather ...then that all dies down and nothing more is said about it...then something new comes along and everyone says ok this is it! Then that dies down out of the media ...so everyone watches for something else...and its this constant jumping around watching world events that are always changing yet the bible doesn't change... that bothers me alot.

Its like what is everyone going to do if you know who doesn't get elected for president...then you will have to look for someone else to be the AC and then that person doesn't pan out either so you look for someone else. (I have seen this happening like that for many years). Meanwhile the board is FILLED with posts where people are totally convinced...carved in stone, this..whatever is happening at the time..is it! Its true! Time is short because of such and such events and would give their left kidney over cause its so true...then it all fades away as things die down and its off to pointing to something else.

Does anyone else have a problem with this besides me?

I truly, truly do not want to hurt anyone or make anyone angry...or offend. But this is what I see on here...:( Its just I am 47 years old and have see this happening my whole life...and it never pans out like everyone is convinced it should. Maybe the problem is we are looking at the 'world' for answer to bible prophesies? To the media we know never tells us the whole truth and distorts what it does tell us? I don't know. All I know is something isn't working here doing it this way...

God bless

I totally agree with you....the only thing that made me a bit uneasy was seeing how this caused many nations to cry out for a one world economy/currency. Whether things smooth over or not, I believe that this problem was such an eye opener to the world community that the ball is now rolling for a one world currency/economy.;)

moonglow
Oct 14th 2008, 01:59 PM
I totally agree with you....the only thing that made me a bit uneasy was seeing how this caused many nations to cry out for a one world economy/currency. Whether things smooth over or not, I believe that this problem was such an eye opener to the world community that the ball is now rolling for a one world currency/economy.;)

I haven't seen them doing this though...we are all already connected in the economy and have been for ages now. Our stock market affects the stock markets around the world...same thing happened in the Great Depression too...many other countries were affected also. All of us having the same currency would make things worse! for instance when the dollar was low why would the rest of the world want to also use American dollars when the value of their money was higher? I did a search and find no news articles on one world currency at all. Tons of extremist websites on it but no solid new articles about it.

I remember when I was in high school and they tried to change our math system to match other parts of the world. Measuring things in liters instead of gallons and meters instead of inches or yards. Trying to teach us kids what it all meant. Only problem was our system of measuring couldn't be broken right to come up with matching measurement in their system. They couldn't say a liter is equal to a gallon...it came out all weird with alot of point 111 or something no one could remember and was just too difficult to translate. After making us kids suffer with this for a year or two they finally gave up. They were going to change all the food items in the stores too to reflect this system...instead of so many oz on something they would go to this system. It failed miserable. The only one that stuck on the liter pop...:rolleyes:

Its like an American dollar couldn't match exactly the currency they have in Mexico..comes out all strange...same with the money in the rest of the world. Just doesn't work. The America dollar equals $1.34 in Euro right now. I couldn't image trying to sort through all of this so it worked out right to make it all one currency. I think it would drive any accountant insane...:lol: Not too mention the big companies here couldn't use cheap labor over in other countries anymore and that would hurt their greedy business if they had to pay everyone the same way. :(

God bless

HisLeast
Oct 14th 2008, 02:11 PM
Ummm, well, if you simply look at what the worldwide economy has become, and currently is, and where our dollar is at, and is heading, not to mention the opinions of just about everyone who knows what they are talking about, you'd see that what I said is true.
If you're really interested in reading "what just about everyone who knows what they are talking about" are saying you get a fairly balanced viewpoint. The problem is, anyone who demonstrates even a modicum of optimism is treated as pariahs. Its like optimism excludes "knowing what one is talking about".

Having formal education in economics, I'm well aware that there are some seriously bad things occurring and on the horizon. I just have a more optimistic view of the USA and what its people are capable of. Lastly, I try not to interpret prophecy through the filter of the American experience. Around here that combination earns me titles such as "ignorant" and "head in the sand".


What a garbage straw man comment about "betting on a horse". That has nothing to do with what I said, nor is it anywhere near the same thing, but I'll put it out there like this.
Its not a straw man. You described with absolute certainty that the USA's time is over. You leave no room for consideration or alternate opinions. I must therefore conclude that you've been to the future. In that case, I'd like to make some bets on a couple horse races and I can use your future-knowledge to make sure I win.


Read up.
Here we go again: "You're not as pessimistic as me, therefore you ignorant of facts". :rolleyes:

moonglow
Oct 14th 2008, 02:37 PM
Here we go again: "You're not as pessimistic as me, therefore you ignorant of facts". :rolleyes:

Yes! Exactly! This is what the Christian world view has become! Expecting nothing but bad, terrible, awful things! This is how we live! Looking at everything in a negative light...

Waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' ...is this really how we are suppose to be?

I find it difficult to hold this view point while being the 'light of the world' and offer 'hope for those in the darkness'...

And those of us that don't have this gloom and doom outlook get put down for it...

I see Paul constantly offering hope and encouragement to the churches in the bible and they were all going through some horrible times! Much worse then we are. Yet while we have all these freedoms we aren't enjoying them because we are anxiously waiting for that terrible thing to happen...which one week is this and the next week its that...

If those terrible times come in our life time I would image many will regret not enjoying the freedoms we have now and wishing they had focused on the here and now instead of what 'might happen any minute'.

Matthew 6:33-34

33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.

34 “So don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today.

God bless

Scruffy Kid
Oct 14th 2008, 03:05 PM
Like Moonglow, I've seen prophecies of Christ's return and the end-times all my life. I remember well, as a child or youth, reading in my grandmother's house tracts confidently explaining why all this would happen by 1975 at the latest. (It didn't.) Of course, a large number of US denominations came about because of the (Millerite) conclusion that the world would end in 1844. (It didn't.) When Christ didn't return then, they modified their (intricate, Biblical) calculations: and I've seen various modifications of the 1844 schema propounded on this board! Earlier, various people in the middle ages advanced various timetables for Christ's return.

Apart from the failure of so many expectations, I have more fundamental problems with attempts to predict end-times events.

First, I find it logically odd. Why on earth should we expect that the Bible is written to give us, or anyone, detailed info on the timing of Christ's return. When those events come to pass, why would those caught up in them really need such info? What is essential is to trust in God, and commit one's life to Christ. God will take care of those who trust in him.

The idea that we need to know the details of timing in such events seems to me to place our own temporal welfare -- our escaping troubles in this world -- at the center of things. This world is not where we should set our affections. Rather, we should "seek first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness": then all things we need will be given us by our heavenly Father, who knows our needs. This is what Jesus taught. (Matt 6:33, Luke 12:31) We are not to worry about our physical needs too much: considering the lillies of the field and the birds of the air, we instead trust God and find our treasure and security not in escaping earthly difficulties, but in God. (Matt. 6:28) For where our treasure is, there will our heart also be. (Matt. 6:21, Luke 12:34). We should reckon ourselves dead to this world, and alive to Christ.
If you then are risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits at the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (Col. 3:1-3) It should be true for us, as for Paul, that we are "crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

The aim of New Testament teaching about how we are to live is that we are to live for Christ, for God, in faith and hope, not run about anxiously. Jesus tells us not to worry, but to trust in God. The whole project of scanning current events for signs of the end times seems to me to undermine the thing we've been commanded to do: to seek a life of obedience and peace in God, trusting and praying.

Second, the New Testament repeatedly -- as I read it -- emphasizes that we are not able to know timing of God's action. Jesus says that that day will come as a thief in the night and take us unaware. The authors of the epistles repeatedly say that the day of Christ's coming is near. But then by "near" they must mean something other than that it will happen in the next year, or 20 years, or 100 years -- because they wrote almost 2000 years ago. Jesus says that "of that day even the angels in heaven do not know", and on one occasion said that He Himself did not know -- only the Father! (Mark 13:32)

The emphasis is not on knowing exactly when things are to take place, but on always being prepared. Not on being prepared with extra supplies of water in the house, as for some earthquake or similar emergency, but on being prepared with hearts ready for Christ. What does it matter if we are alive when the end-times take place, or whether that is a thousand years hence? Not at all!! Generations have lived and died, and endured famines, plagues, wars, sickness, and all kinds of troubles.

Each of us is going to die. Many Christians today -- in Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, India, Indonesia -- are suffering and dying for their faith. And many people are dying not having reconciled themselves to God through Christ. Yes, being prepared to meet God our judge and maker, savior and father, is urgent. Yes we need to devote ourselves to making ourselves and others ready to meet God. Yes, it's a matter of utmost urgency! But it doesn't have a lot to do with whether the anti-Christ appears next week or in 10 thousand years. The urgency of giving our lives to Christ remains.

Third, the kind of conduct the NT constantly enjoins upon us, constantly commands, is one of quiet confidence and faith, and diligent living out of our faith, not one of getting all perturbed by what is going on in this world. The whole project of seeking signs of the end times seems to me one of getting hot and bothered by what is going on in this world. Instead, we must learn to live peacefully, tranquilly, despite all the turmoils of this world.

May the peace of God which surpasses all human understanding
keep our hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of Christ!

vinsight4u8
Oct 14th 2008, 03:15 PM
I see us in the after certain years part of Daniel 11.

What if v 21 is where the man of sin begins to rule Iraq?

How do we know that Anwar Sadat is not what verse 14 is about?

many stand up against the king of the south
-as in his own people go against him

the robbers exalt themselves
(this bunch is in Israel's land)
so - Israel is a free people
but the Palestinians exalted themselves and will fall

Iraq comes to the rescue!

apothanein kerdos
Oct 14th 2008, 03:18 PM
end times stuff that probably won't happen...

Dow sees biggest runup ever
Blue-chip indicator jumps over 800 points, topping the 9,200 level, its biggest one-day advance on a point basis ever. (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2008101310)

Ok I am going to say something and try very hard not to offend people on here as I love you all dearly...but I have a big problem with folks using very temporary things in this world as a measure as to how close we are to the tribulation/Second Coming. Things like this have happened in the past and also affected the whole world's economy too! And it will probably continue being up and down for awhile then settle back to normal. I just really think its wrong to gauge the whole time ends on this..though I realize to the benefit of many of you, you aren't just using this but also watching other things too of course and believe its all coming together...but if this one big thing you were watching doesn't go as you thought it would..then what? Do you watch for something else to happen then?

That is what I usually see happen on these things....first its wild fires ...or a major earthquake somewhere, bad spring weather ...then that all dies down and nothing more is said about it...then something new comes along and everyone says ok this is it! Then that dies down out of the media ...so everyone watches for something else...and its this constant jumping around watching world events that are always changing yet the bible doesn't change... that bothers me alot.

Its like what is everyone going to do if you know who doesn't get elected for president...then you will have to look for someone else to be the AC and then that person doesn't pan out either so you look for someone else. (I have seen this happening like that for many years). Meanwhile the board is FILLED with posts where people are totally convinced...carved in stone, this..whatever is happening at the time..is it! Its true! Time is short because of such and such events and would give their left kidney over cause its so true...then it all fades away as things die down and its off to pointing to something else.

Does anyone else have a problem with this besides me?

I truly, truly do not want to hurt anyone or make anyone angry...or offend. But this is what I see on here...:( Its just I am 47 years old and have see this happening my whole life...and it never pans out like everyone is convinced it should. Maybe the problem is we are looking at the 'world' for answer to bible prophesies? To the media we know never tells us the whole truth and distorts what it does tell us? I don't know. All I know is something isn't working here doing it this way...

God bless


Completely agree with you 100%.

With that said, be careful on the economy. Remember, after the Stock Market crashed in 1929, it still grew and had major growth days post-crash all the way into 1930. The market is fickle - which is why we shouldn't base "end times predictions" on it.

Agree with your post though, quite a bit. Not everything leads to the end times. Just ask the Christians who died under Turkish rule or who lived through the Black Plague.

moonglow
Oct 14th 2008, 03:40 PM
Like Moonglow, I've seen prophecies of Christ's return and the end-times all my life. I remember well, as a child or youth, reading in my grandmother's house tracts confidently explaining why all this would happen by 1975 at the latest. (It didn't.) Of course, a large number of US denominations came about because of the (Millerite) conclusion that the world would end in 1844. (It didn't.) When Christ didn't return then, they modified their (intricate, Biblical) calculations: and I've seen various modifications of the 1844 schema propounded on this board! Earlier, various people in the middle ages advanced various timetables for Christ's return.

Apart from the failure of so many expectations, I have more fundamental problems with attempts to predict end-times events.

First, I find it logically odd. Why on earth should we expect that the Bible is written to give us, or anyone, detailed info on the timing of Christ's return. When those events come to pass, why would those caught up in them really need such info? What is essential is to trust in God, and commit one's life to Christ. God will take care of those who trust in him.

The idea that we need to know the details of timing in such events seems to me to place our own temporal welfare -- our escaping troubles in this world -- at the center of things. This world is not where we should set our affections. Rather, we should "seek first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness": then all things we need will be given us by our heavenly Father, who knows our needs. This is what Jesus taught. (Matt 6:33, Luke 12:31) We are not to worry about our physical needs too much: considering the lillies of the field and the birds of the air, we instead trust God and find our treasure and security not in escaping earthly difficulties, but in God. (Matt. 6:28) For where our treasure is, there will our heart also be. (Matt. 6:21, Luke 12:34). We should reckon ourselves dead to this world, and alive to Christ.
If you then are risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits at the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (Col. 3:1-3) It should be true for us, as for Paul, that we are "crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

The aim of New Testament teaching about how we are to live is that we are to live for Christ, for God, in faith and hope, not run about anxiously. Jesus tells us not to worry, but to trust in God. The whole project of scanning current events for signs of the end times seems to me to undermine the thing we've been commanded to do: to seek a life of obedience and peace in God, trusting and praying.

Second, the New Testament repeatedly -- as I read it -- emphasizes that we are not able to know timing of God's action. Jesus says that that day will come as a thief in the night and take us unaware. The authors of the epistles repeatedly say that the day of Christ's coming is near. But then by "near" they must mean something other than that it will happen in the next year, or 20 years, or 100 years -- because they wrote almost 2000 years ago. Jesus says that "of that day even the angels in heaven do not know", and on one occasion said that He Himself did not know -- only the Father! (Mark 13:32)

The emphasis is not on knowing exactly when things are to take place, but on always being prepared. Not on being prepared with extra supplies of water in the house, as for some earthquake or similar emergency, but on being prepared with hearts ready for Christ. What does it matter if we are alive when the end-times take place, or whether that is a thousand years hence? Not at all!! Generations have lived and died, and endured famines, plagues, wars, sickness, and all kinds of troubles.

Each of us is going to die. Many Christians today -- in Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, India, Indonesia -- are suffering and dying for their faith. And many people are dying not having reconciled themselves to God through Christ. Yes, being prepared to meet God our judge and maker, savior and father, is urgent. Yes we need to devote ourselves to making ourselves and others ready to meet God. Yes, it's a matter of utmost urgency! But it doesn't have a lot to do with whether the anti-Christ appears next week or in 10 thousand years. The urgency of giving our lives to Christ remains.

Third, the kind of conduct the NT constantly enjoins upon us, constantly commands, is one of quiet confidence and faith, and diligent living out of our faith, not one of getting all perturbed by what is going on in this world. The whole project of seeking signs of the end times seems to me one of getting hot and bothered by what is going on in this world. Instead, we must learn to live peacefully, tranquilly, despite all the turmoils of this world.

May the peace of God which surpasses all human understanding
keep our hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of Christ!

I thank you kind sir for this post! Right on target and said better then I ever could. I image I will meet God when I die (though actually as a born again Christian I have already 'meant Him')... but not due to a rapture, tribulation or the Second Coming happening first. So I need to work on my day to day walk with Him here and now for sure! :) If He does return before I die, I will be thrilled actually! But chances are..I have a 98% chance of dying before that happens as have thousands before me.


apothanein kerdos

Completely agree with you 100%.

With that said, be careful on the economy. Remember, after the Stock Market crashed in 1929, it still grew and had major growth days post-crash all the way into 1930. The market is fickle - which is why we shouldn't base "end times predictions" on it.

Agree with your post though, quite a bit. Not everything leads to the end times. Just ask the Christians who died under Turkish rule or who lived through the Black Plague.



I know..read up on the Great Depression and realize it wasn't something that happened all in one day but happened over a period of years. And I am aware the stock market could go bad again...probably will in fact...then good, then bad...I just hate to see people watching that as a gauge about the end times! 'Its bad so the trib must be about to start'..its good again...ok wait for it to go bad again or look for something else bad that is happening in the world... there's a big earthquake somewhere and many die (which is awful yes and we grieve for them)...but must it mean the world is about to come to an end every time something happens?

I realize most are not looking at one bad thing and saying this is the end..but looking at many things. But given history..its happened before..time and time again. The market could crash and we could enter another depression as bad as the last and I still would not go around saying the end was upon us. (I honestly don't think that will happen though...another GD) but if it does...we got through it before and will again. I hate seeing people's emotions and beliefs toss about in the wind like this...it just isn't right.

God bless

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 09:12 PM
I agree with the following things, and I'm sure that most who watch for "the signs of the times" agree with it:




This world is not where we should set our affections. Rather, we should "seek first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness":

... we instead trust God and find our treasure and security not in escaping earthly difficulties, but in God. (Matt. 6:28) For where our treasure is, there will our heart also be. (Matt. 6:21, Luke 12:34). We should reckon ourselves dead to this world, and alive to Christ.

If you then are risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits at the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (Col. 3:1-3)
It should be true for us, as for Paul, that we are "crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

The aim of New Testament teaching about how we are to live is that we are to live for Christ, for God, in faith and hope, not run about anxiously.

The emphasis is not on knowing exactly when things are to take place, but on always being prepared. Not on being prepared with extra supplies of water in the house, as for some earthquake or similar emergency, but on being prepared with hearts ready for Christ.

Each of us is going to die. Many Christians today -- in Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, India, Indonesia -- are suffering and dying for their faith. And many people are dying not having reconciled themselves to God through Christ. Yes, being prepared to meet God our judge and maker, savior and father, is urgent. Yes we need to devote ourselves to making ourselves and others ready to meet God. Yes, it's a matter of utmost urgency! But it doesn't have a lot to do with whether the anti-Christ appears next week or in 10 thousand years. The urgency of giving our lives to Christ remains.

Third, the kind of conduct the NT constantly enjoins upon us, constantly commands, is one of quiet confidence and faith, and diligent living out of our faith, not one of getting all perturbed by what is going on in this world. The whole project of seeking signs of the end times seems to me one of getting hot and bothered by what is going on in this world. Instead, we must learn to live peacefully, tranquilly, despite all the turmoils of this world.

May the peace of God which surpasses all human understanding
keep our hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of Christ!


Nevertheless, although I don't believe that the return of Christ will come within the next 7-20 years, I believe that its quite possible that He will - and it' not isolated things happening here and there that make me believe this - it's things like the move toward global economy and global control and the slow but steady eradication of civil liberties in those parts of the world where these previosuly exsited, and the threat of nuclear world-war that seems to edge that much closer every time people like Achmadinejad open their mouths.

So I don't believe that the Lord will come within the next 7-20 years, I believe that its quite possible that He will.

ananias

danield
Oct 15th 2008, 12:32 AM
I just want to let anyone who has been affected by this market downturn how sorry I am for you and your family. I wish there was something that I could do to help the many people who have displaced by the unexpected wave of problems that now surround you. I personally know many who have lost work due to this slow down. I also want to tell anyone who has not been affected yet to prepare for a bumpy road. The stock Market crashed in 1929, but the average person did not feel the effect until some time after the market adjustments. We have some difficult things to work out in our system. Please know that I do have compassion for each of you who are experiencing these difficulties. We may not have bread lines, and unemployment is not at record levels yet, but there are still many people who are feeling much discomfort from issues we have just witnessed. I know everyone here will give the same advice and that is to trust in God. He will find a way!

Royalchild
Oct 15th 2008, 05:45 PM
With all due respect, if you have a big problem with it.

Many do believe we are very much nearer the last days. It is not wrong to look for the signs of the season.
Just because there have been many false signs, that does not mean we should stop looking.

A watchman does not stop keeping watch with great diligence, just because of many false alarms.

I guess that in the days of Noah, they thought it could not rain because they saw no clouds.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Partaker of Christ,

I agree with you. This is almost having the same attitude of scoffers as mentioned in the bible. And what makes these times so much different from the past is the rebirth of Israel as well as them being back in their land.
Just my :2cents:;).

HisLeast
Oct 15th 2008, 07:15 PM
Deleted.........

ananias
Oct 15th 2008, 08:02 PM
Remember the James Bond movie title "Live and let Die"?
I think we should remember to "Live and let Live" - no matter what our eschaotological views are.

Some of us see certain things occurring in the world (such as global stock market crashes and gloabal interventions and moves to control economies or sections of it), and such as Iran's constant threats to annihilate the state of Israel, and such as the seeming shift in the balance of power in the world which seems to be shifting not in favor of countries such as the U.S, etc, as individual bricks that are POSSIBLY laying the foundation for the fulfillment of Revelation 13 and 17.

Is that a crime?

No more or less than it's a crime to keep a level head and be optimistic that this particualr chain of bankruptcies and stock market crashes will prove to have been no different from any other.

Whos right?

I think it's the One who said,

"But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers. And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.


Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
(Mat.23: 8-10)


and,


"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another." (Joh.13: 34)

OneTime
Oct 16th 2008, 06:43 AM
Okay, I can see where you're coming from, and I thank you for your grace. However, America is nobody's friend. They weren't 8 years ago, and they certainly aren't now. Of course I imagine that there are still a few countries around the world that wouldn't love to dance on our grave, but have no doubt, we have reigned for a hundred years, and it is a cold blooded fact that we have gone to the sword on numerous occasions for no other reason than to help leverage our position, as such is the world.

The world has caught up to, and in many cases, far surpassed us. We gave up the moral high ground years ago, if it ever really belonged to us to begin with, and we are watching the chickens coming home to roost in our health, our youth, and our prosperity.

And the world has been watching.

'Those who live by the sword......"

OneTime
Oct 16th 2008, 06:51 AM
Yes! Exactly! This is what the Christian world view has become! Expecting nothing but bad, terrible, awful things! This is how we live! Looking at everything in a negative light...

Waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' ...is this really how we are suppose to be?

I find it difficult to hold this view point while being the 'light of the world' and offer 'hope for those in the darkness'...

And those of us that don't have this gloom and doom outlook get put down for it...

I see Paul constantly offering hope and encouragement to the churches in the bible and they were all going through some horrible times! Much worse then we are. Yet while we have all these freedoms we aren't enjoying them because we are anxiously waiting for that terrible thing to happen...which one week is this and the next week its that...

If those terrible times come in our life time I would image many will regret not enjoying the freedoms we have now and wishing they had focused on the here and now instead of what 'might happen any minute'.

Matthew 6:33-34

33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.

34 “So don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today.

God bless

Please don't get me wrong, in real life I'm constantly getting into trouble for not "being serious enough". I'm not heavy hearted about this, but at the same time, I know whatever will be is God's will and therefore it's my will, because as hard as it is to accept sometimes, I trust him.

But on the flip side, people, for whatever reason, the majority of humans have proven throughout history a desire to bury their heads in the sand (not accusing you all of that) instead of facing reality. It's how men like Hitler and a hundred men like him came into power. It's how men like Greenspan turned their back on sound economics to drive a roaring market built on thin air, with all of the previous generations of Americans sweat and toil turning into lifetimes of debt and low paying slavery for their families. And we say "This has all happened before, it's just a blip" The list goes on.

Christ rebuked us for discerning the weather, but not the signs of the times.

But again, please know, rain or shine, bull or bear, I for one laugh, because it truly is gonna be alright. And so, it is.

God Bless!!

tundra
Oct 16th 2008, 12:16 PM
Okay, I can see where you're coming from, and I thank you for your grace. However, America is nobody's friend. They weren't 8 years ago, and they certainly aren't now. Of course I imagine that there are still a few countries around the world that wouldn't love to dance on our grave, but have no doubt, we have reigned for a hundred years, and it is a cold blooded fact that we have gone to the sword on numerous occasions for no other reason than to help leverage our position, as such is the world.

The world has caught up to, and in many cases, far surpassed us. We gave up the moral high ground years ago, if it ever really belonged to us to begin with, and we are watching the chickens coming home to roost in our health, our youth, and our prosperity.

And the world has been watching.

'Those who live by the sword......"


You know Onetime, sadly I have to agree with what you are saying here. How awesome would it be if America would repent from the top down like Ninevah? Realistic or not, who can say? But nevertheless, it is what Christians should be praying for wholeheartedly.

moonglow
Oct 16th 2008, 02:16 PM
The scoffers are "scoffing" at the idea that Jesus is ever coming back. They scoff at Christians for being Christians. "Scoffers" is reserved for those who deny Christ and deny righteousness before God. How dare you aim such a term at us?

I don't deny Christ. I don't deny he's coming again. I don't deny there will be one incredible day of reckoning. But I also don't believe that every grey cloud in the American sky is a warden of the end times. And even if I was positive beyond shadow of a doubt that this is the end of the end of days, I'd still have a thing or two to say about posts like this one (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=139834), which exist to sew fear and hopelessness rather than encouragement.

Scoffer indeed.

Indeed...its like the scoffers are in reserve of this...scoffing that things could get better! Scoffing at any good news...defending in fact, the negative view point which bothers me greatly. Its like scoffing at people for having hope! They can't have hope because the end is near...and should only look for the negative in this world...never the good. I just don't see the bible telling us to have this attitude ...especially if we are suppose to be the 'light' of the world as Christ said to do. How can we be the light if we are throwing water on any light that does shine? :confused


ananias Remember the James Bond movie title "Live and let Die"?
I think we should remember to "Live and let Live" - no matter what our eschaotological views are.

Some of us see certain things occurring in the world (such as global stock market crashes and gloabal interventions and moves to control economies or sections of it), and such as Iran's constant threats to annihilate the state of Israel, and such as the seeming shift in the balance of power in the world which seems to be shifting not in favor of countries such as the U.S, etc, as individual bricks that are POSSIBLY laying the foundation for the fulfillment of Revelation 13 and 17.

Is that a crime?

No more or less than it's a crime to keep a level head and be optimistic that this particualr chain of bankruptcies and stock market crashes will prove to have been no different from any other.

Whos right?

I think it's the One who said,

"But you must not be called Rabbi, for One is your teacher, Christ, and you are all brothers. And call no one your father on the earth, for One is your Father in Heaven.

Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ."
(Mat.23: 8-10)

and,

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another." (Joh.13: 34)

The crime is overly focusing on looking for the beast to the point people put Christ on the back burner...

I never said there was anything wrong with being watchful and watching for the signs...of course not. Again the problem is when literally anything bad happens people going around announcing the end is near! The tribulation is about to start. As I said before I have heard that my whole life and when nothing happens time and time again it can really damage a person's faith...make it so they give up 'watching for signs' at all...

Its one thing to watch...its something else altogether to go around announcing the world is about to end over anything and everything that happens...that is what I object too.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 16th 2008, 02:33 PM
Okay, I can see where you're coming from, and I thank you for your grace. However, America is nobody's friend. They weren't 8 years ago, and they certainly aren't now. Of course I imagine that there are still a few countries around the world that wouldn't love to dance on our grave, but have no doubt, we have reigned for a hundred years, and it is a cold blooded fact that we have gone to the sword on numerous occasions for no other reason than to help leverage our position, as such is the world.

The world has caught up to, and in many cases, far surpassed us. We gave up the moral high ground years ago, if it ever really belonged to us to begin with, and we are watching the chickens coming home to roost in our health, our youth, and our prosperity.

And the world has been watching.

'Those who live by the sword......"

I don't know why we should be more important then any other nation in this whole or why this nations sins should be counted more closely then other nations....

Many other nations are far off worse then we are when it comes to immorality yet we tend to bash our own country more and I don't understand that. The chickens come home to rest in every other nation too, not just ours.


Please don't get me wrong, in real life I'm constantly getting into trouble for not "being serious enough". I'm not heavy hearted about this, but at the same time, I know whatever will be is God's will and therefore it's my will, because as hard as it is to accept sometimes, I trust him.

But on the flip side, people, for whatever reason, the majority of humans have proven throughout history a desire to bury their heads in the sand (not accusing you all of that) instead of facing reality. It's how men like Hitler and a hundred men like him came into power. It's how men like Greenspan turned their back on sound economics to drive a roaring market built on thin air, with all of the previous generations of Americans sweat and toil turning into lifetimes of debt and low paying slavery for their families. And we say "This has all happened before, it's just a blip" The list goes on.

Christ rebuked us for discerning the weather, but not the signs of the times.

But again, please know, rain or shine, bull or bear, I for one laugh, because it truly is gonna be alright. And so, it is.

God Bless!!

I don't know who is giving you are hard time about not being more upset about things...no one is doing that to me...seems sorta odd to me anyone would do this to you. Anyway I am sorry they are...but I agree with you...God is in control of all of this anyway...while that may mean allowing those who through greed, chose to hurt this country...that all falls into freewill. It was the government ignoring the warning signs...the average American...unless keeping close watch on such things...we didn't know...so how could we be burying our heads in the sand if we didn't know what was happening?

I think we all know we are in tough times...no doubt about that. What I am saying is why is this any different then things that happened in the past to cause people to cry the end is near? That is what I am talking about...

Thanks for your input on this.

God bless

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 02:39 PM
I agree with the OP. If the AC or Great Trib was to Occur certain other things would all have to muddle into the mix as well.

I for one cannot imagine it happening much before 2030. If then even. I had this conviction that 2030-2034 would be a big issue for me since I was a child. I'm 48 and that's a long time to have a conviction for no apparent reason (So I am leary to even mention it) But Lets see if I can make up a convincing story just for humor: Oh I know one: It will be 2000 years since Jesus was ressurected, also, it will be... ermmm, oh dear I dont seem to have any other cogent points to make do I.

Silly ME:)

Some have said we need to have one woprld currency, other have said we need to move to a cashless society before the end can come? Any thoughts anyone?

moonglow
Oct 16th 2008, 03:12 PM
I agree with the OP. If the AC or Great Trib was to Occur certain other things would all have to muddle into the mix as well.

I for one cannot imagine it happening much before 2030. If then even. I had this conviction that 2030-2034 would be a big issue for me since I was a child. I'm 48 and that's a long time to have a conviction for no apparent reason (So I am leary to even mention it) But Lets see if I can make up a convincing story just for humor: Oh I know one: It will be 2000 years since Jesus was ressurected, also, it will be... ermmm, oh dear I dont seem to have any other cogent points to make do I.

Silly ME:)

Some have said we need to have one woprld currency, other have said we need to move to a cashless society before the end can come? Any thoughts anyone?

oh you just opened a can of worms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek::lol:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 03:49 PM
oh you just opened a can of worms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek::lol:


ME? NO! Really? LOL

(I saw that Can of Worms in another thread about 2 days ago... I think its in use already) haha

moonglow
Oct 16th 2008, 05:44 PM
ME? NO! Really? LOL

(I saw that Can of Worms in another thread about 2 days ago... I think its in use already) haha

http://www.pets-warehouse.com/pic-s/SZMZM42.jpg


:lol::lol::lol:

I got them back...

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 06:07 PM
http://www.pets-warehouse.com/pic-s/SZMZM42.jpg


:lol::lol::lol:

I got them back...

Hey! No Fair! Give em to someone else pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee

moonglow
Oct 16th 2008, 06:11 PM
Hey! No Fair! Give em to someone else pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee


http://skugg.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/can-of-worms.jpg
You opened them!

Don't feel bad...I hear they have alot of protein in them...good for you if you are out starving in the woods somewhere....


hungry yet??? ;):lol::lol:

quiet dove
Oct 16th 2008, 06:18 PM
You know you guys are asking for it here..... :eek::lol::eek:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 06:29 PM
You know you guys are asking for it here..... :eek::lol::eek:
TWO CANS???
YOUR KILLING ME

I'm on a diet, seriously, I am not hungry:rofl:

I think they should be added together into one picture of something and awarded to a memebr everyday for.. an offense worthy of two cans of worms!... Lets pick on...hmmmmmmmm I dont know...
You seem to be a good character to pick on moonglow... your always stirring things around a bit....
hmmm yes thats the ticket.

Two cans for you. (as soon as I figure if they can be joined together.:hmm:)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 06:41 PM
I am unable to post the image.. anyone know how to post from an image on my hardrive?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 07:37 PM
By the authority vested in me, as servant of the most high God, and because The first offender has been Identified as Moonglow this prize: The Double Can of Worms is also officially named "the Moonglow Award". May it be passed like gas... All over the place.
http://bibleforums.org/picture.php?albumid=287&pictureid=2163:P:D:spin::lol:

moonglow
Oct 16th 2008, 08:30 PM
By the authority vested in me, as servant of the most high God, and because The first offender has been Identified as Moonglow this prize: The Double Can of Worms is also officially named "the Moonglow Award". May it be passed like gas... All over the place.
http://bibleforums.org/picture.php?albumid=287&pictureid=2163:P:D:spin::lol:

:lol: dingy....just what I always wanted! A can of worms! :pp:pp

My son would like them for fishing with...lol. I always feel sorry for them...how would YOU like to have a hook impaled on you in several parts of your body then thrown into the water to drown? :cool: I told him that and now he feels bad for the worms too...lol.

PS to get a picture on here from your computer...click to start a post then scroll down way past the 'submit reply' and look for 'manage attachments'..click on that and you can browse your pictures...only problem is it only accepts a certain size..small....so you might have to resize your picture first. Kind of a pain.

Anyway...we are going to get into trouble for getting off topic...so in answer to your question which has nothing to do with the initial topic of this thread...lol...I think the mark is spiritual and the buying and selling isn't literal either..its about actions of people. As Jesus said...by their fruits you will know them. Much of Revelation is symbolic.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T5806)

7) charagma, "a stamp" or "imprinted mark." "The mark of the beast" (peculiar to Revelation) was the badge of the followers of Antichrist, stamped on the forehead or right hand (Revelation 13:16; compare Ezekiel 9:4,6). It was symbolic of character and was thus not a literal or physical mark, but the impress of paganism on the moral and spiritual life. It was the sign or token of apostasy. As a spiritual state or condition it subjected men to the wrath of God and to eternal torment (Revelation 14:9-11); to noisome disease (Revelation 16:2); to the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). Those who received not the mark, having faithfully endured persecution and martyrdom, were given part in the first resurrection and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:4). The "beast" symbolizes the anti-Christian empires, particularly Rome under Nero, who sought to devour and destroy the early Christians.


Part of the reason I also don't believe it will be literal is because it would be physically impossible to mark...or put a chip in the 8 million people on this earth..it certainly would take more then three and a half years! When people are living in jungles, in remote deserts, mountains...with a baby being born every second around the world and most not in hospitals...

Regardless of how much power the beast is given...he is not given more power then God, Himself...I see nothing to suggest anything supernatural will have to happen in order for everyone to be physically marked...

Sometimes I feel people give more power to this antichrist then they do to God...!

God bless

Dragonfighter1
Oct 16th 2008, 09:08 PM
:lol: dingy....just what I always wanted! A can of worms! :pp:pp

My son would like them for fishing with...lol. I always feel sorry for them...how would YOU like to have a hook impaled on you in several parts of your body then thrown into the water to drown? :cool: I told him that and now he feels bad for the worms too...lol.

I always kept them warm under my tongue until it was time to drown them... that way they were warm and wiggly for longer!:P


Part of the reason I also don't believe it will be literal is because it would be physically impossible to mark...or put a chip in the 8 million people on this earth..it certainly would take more then three and a half years!

Not sure I agree there. If it were ordered that we all get earings the malls would only be crowded for a week or two at most...walk up, zing, walk away. Now I know the forehead and the hand aren't quite the same but I really do think that a m onth or two may be all thats needed if it is a small chip. Look at how they inject those chips in dogs today even. Zap! Done, next!

Scarey if you ask me.:pray:

I'd rather they told me to carry a can or two of worms... oh but I couldnt...you've got 'em:rofl:

moonglow
Oct 16th 2008, 11:09 PM
You know you guys are asking for it here..... :eek::lol::eek:

Oh I just saw this....SORRY! :lol::rolleyes:


Dragonfighter1

I always kept them warm under my tongue until it was time to drown them... that way they were warm and wiggly for longer!

That is disgusting...:P :cool: ewwwwwww...gag....

Ok back on topic...I think...:hmm: (what was the topic? :hmm:)


Not sure I agree there. If it were ordered that we all get earings the malls would only be crowded for a week or two at most...walk up, zing, walk away. Now I know the forehead and the hand aren't quite the same but I really do think that a m onth or two may be all thats needed if it is a small chip. Look at how they inject those chips in dogs today even. Zap! Done, next!

Scarey if you ask me.

you know what your problem is... you have a first world mentally and aren't seeing outside that box. (please do not take offense at the following..I am sure you are aware of alot of this..but for the benefit of those reading I am posting this).

Ok look...when you watch news stories on TV of those living in third world countries...you ever see a mall around? A grocery store that isn't a stand on a dirt road? Ever watch documentaries of the millions living in trash dumps? How about those that live in the jungles and hunt animals for their food?

Exactly where are they going to line up to get a mark of any kind? And why would they...many make less then 2 dollars a day ...there are no banks...no scan em grocery stores....no chip would benefit them in buying a thing when they have no money..no stores with scanners in them.

http://www.bisr.org.uk/work001.gif

http://annatroupe.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/dump_children.jpg

http://www7.caret.cam.ac.uk/wades_22.jpg

Were talking about millions and millions of people that cannot easily be reached...not too mention all those in slavery around the world..in order for them to be marked their owners would have to be exposed for what they are doing too. Take notice of the numbers here..

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/03/08/women.trafficking/

Sex slavery: The growing trade

The project also claims that Asian women are sold to brothels in North America for $16,000 each.

Almost 200,000 girls from Nepal, many of them under the age of 14, are working as sex slaves in India.

An estimated 10,000 women from the former Soviet Union have been forced into prostitution in Israel.

The Thai government reports that 60,000 Thai children have been sold into prostitution.

As many as 10,000 children aged between six and 14 are virtually enslaved in brothels in Sri Lanka.

Some 20,000 women and children from Burma have been forced into prostitution in Thailand.

The project also says that of 155 cases of forced prostitution brought before the courts in The Netherlands, only four resulted in convictions of the traffickers.

The Protection Project is compiling a database on laws on trafficking, forced prostitution, slavery and debt bondage in 190 independent states and 63 dependencies.

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1186558,00.html
Stolen Away
As criminal gangs run amuck in Iraq, hundreds of girls have gone missing. Are they being sold for sex?
By BRIAN BENNETT/BAGHDAD

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11791

Sex Slave Jihad

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26296
DISPATCH FROM SOUTHEAST ASIA
Sex-slave trade flourishes in Thailand
'I am but one brick in that long … wall of female exploitation and misery'

Its horrible. I pray for them quite often.





It would take a tremendous amount of man power to find them all...these people have no phones, no TV, no radio's to be told to go to some place to get a mark and no transportation...they travel on foot, on animals, carts...whatever. I haven't even brought up the massive amount of money it would take to do this!

And what about all of those that would refuse this mark or chip? It wouldn't just be the Christians refusing either...alot of people would go into hiding. Many national leaders would protest this...I just honestly don't think its remotely possible to do world wide.

God bless

Dragonfighter1
Oct 17th 2008, 01:13 AM
you know what your problem is... you have a first world mentally and aren't seeing outside that box. (please do not take offense at the following..I am sure you are aware of alot of this..but for the benefit of those reading I am posting this)...... (text abbreviated by DF1 for space)
God bless

Moonglow, an excellent point. Never thought of that.

I dont know that I have a cogent answer but the best I can come up with initially is that much prophecy only includes the civilized world. This would explain why Christians who prepare may be able to escape to the wilderness from the AntiChrist. Never the less... you have an excellent point,

Thanks,

Oh, and keep the cans.. I dont want them back unless I deserve them!

OneTime
Oct 17th 2008, 10:53 AM
I don't know why we should be more important then any other nation in this whole or why this nations sins should be counted more closely then other nations....

Many other nations are far off worse then we are when it comes to immorality yet we tend to bash our own country more and I don't understand that. The chickens come home to rest in every other nation too, not just ours.


I don't know who is giving you are hard time about not being more upset about things...no one is doing that to me...seems sorta odd to me anyone would do this to you. Anyway I am sorry they are...but I agree with you...God is in control of all of this anyway...while that may mean allowing those who through greed, chose to hurt this country...that all falls into freewill. It was the government ignoring the warning signs...the average American...unless keeping close watch on such things...we didn't know...so how could we be burying our heads in the sand if we didn't know what was happening?

I think we all know we are in tough times...no doubt about that. What I am saying is why is this any different then things that happened in the past to cause people to cry the end is near? That is what I am talking about...

Thanks for your input on this.

God bless

Good points. But if we truly were, and I'm skeptical about this, one nation under God, then we've set ourselves up. Is there any other nation that makes such bold claims to God's providence as us, both nationally and personally? IDK, but if God has truly shed his grace on us, about this I have NO doubt, we haven't done much with that Grace.

"To whom much is given....."

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 03:36 PM
Moonglow, an excellent point. Never thought of that.

I dont know that I have a cogent answer but the best I can come up with initially is that much prophecy only includes the civilized world. This would explain why Christians who prepare may be able to escape to the wilderness from the AntiChrist. Never the less... you have an excellent point,

Thanks,

Oh, and keep the cans.. I dont want them back unless I deserve them!

Interesting....

Take a look at this...(I think many of different ideas are out there about who this woman is)

Revelation 12:6
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


Adam Clark bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=012)
Verse 6. And the woman fled into the wilderness
The account of the woman's flying into the wilderness immediately follows that of her child being caught up to the throne of God, to denote the great and rapid increase of heresies in the Christian Church after the time that Christianity was made the religion of the empire.


David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=012)
2. (6) The woman in the wilderness.

Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

a. Then the woman fled into the wilderness: Persecuted by the dragon, the woman is protected by God in a prepared place for one thousand two hundred and sixty days

i. This helps us to understand with certainty that the woman is Israel and not Mary. How could Mary possibly flee into the wilderness in this way?

b. One thousand two hundred and sixty days: This reference to a three and one-half year period connects these events with the final seven years of the Daniel 9 prophecy. Since Revelation 12:5 describes the ascension of Jesus, and Revelation 12:6 describes yet-to-occur events in the 70th week of Daniel, between these two verses lies hundreds of years (our current period). This obvious "near-far" break in time is typical of prophecy. Daniel's seventy week prophecy has such a break (Daniel 9:24-27).

c. Into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God: Some believe this place in the wilderness is the rock city of Petra, south of the Dead Sea. Reportedly, Christian businessmen have stocked the place with food and evangelistic tracts written in Hebrew.

Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=012)

Verse 6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And the woman fled into the wilderness ...
Like the old Israel that wandered in the wilderness, the new Israel, the church, must dwell in her own wilderness. The old Israel is a type of the new, as elaborated in my Commentary on 1 Corinthians, pp. 149, 150. "So long as the Lord is personally absent, the church is in the wilderness." Just as the place of the wilderness wanderings was a place of Jewish safety from Pharaoh (the devil), just so the wilderness of the church represents her place of safety from the mighty red dragon (Satan). There are also many other analogies. The old Israel was fed by God in the wilderness and nourished and sustained providentially. So it is with the church. Also, as their wilderness was a time of trials, testing, and temptations, so it is in the period of the church's probation. Many fell, but a remnant entered Canaan; and the same truth is projected with reference to the church.

I kind of like this last one...it seems the Christian church has been in the wilderness for a long time now in many ways.

(continued from Coffman's commentary)
A thousand two hundred and threescore days ...
What can this mean? Is there a certain time-period only when Christ will be with his church? No indeed! This time-period represents every minute of the whole Christian dispensation. This is given in exactly the same form as in Rev. 11:3; and there it was understood as all of the time between the two Advents of Christ, and so it must be understood here. "It describes the period of this world's existence during the whole of which the devil persecutes the church."

It is also called forty-two months; and someone has suggested that this was the number of the forty-two stations of the Israelites in the wilderness. Hendriksen called this time-period "the millennium of Rev. 20"; and we believe this understanding of it to be correct, despite the description of it there by use of a different figure. The saints of Christ are reigning with him now in his kingdom; and Christ already has the authority in heaven and upon earth (Matthew 28:18-20). His rule is not accepted by many, due to the freedom of the will of man; but that does not contradict the higher truth that Christ is truly reigning today in the hearts of those who love and serve him.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 03:51 PM
Good points. But if we truly were, and I'm skeptical about this, one nation under God, then we've set ourselves up. Is there any other nation that makes such bold claims to God's providence as us, both nationally and personally? IDK, but if God has truly shed his grace on us, about this I have NO doubt, we haven't done much with that Grace.

"To whom much is given....."

Well the one nation under God didn't come about until the 1950's I believe...(atheists like to bring that up alot in saying America was never founded as a Christian nation to start with) if nothing else I believe we were founded on Christian principles...but a nation that wanted to be open to everyone. We certainly weren't a secular nation. Rome became a Christian nation and now look at it. :( All of Europe was Christian..mostly Catholic at one time but now is given away to being secular...and now being overtaken by the Muslims. I am just saying America isn't the only nation that has claimed to be Christian...yet we tend to over focus on our own nation more then others...and I don't get that. We talk about how wicked we are but yet there are nations much more wicked then we are! The imbalance on this just doesn't sit right. Especially when people try to force our nation into scriptures...when all the scriptures are focused on the middle east!

At any rate we all know one day God will judge everyone...I see this judging at the Great White Throne judgment to be focused on the individual person...not nations. Nations are made up of people. Why judge one nation and condemn it when good people live there? God allowed even Lot and his family to escape judgment of his city..

No it has to be individuals held accountable for their own actions.

Meanwhile if Consequences come upon any nations, its usually their own doing. You know the saying...give them enough rope and they will hang themselves...kind of like Europe is hanging itself now. Look at how many attacks they have endured in their own country for allowing extremist muslims in there?

Not too mention the churches are dying over there too...:(

God bless

TruthFaith
Oct 17th 2008, 11:49 PM
end times stuff that probably won't happen...

Dow sees biggest runup ever
Blue-chip indicator jumps over 800 points, topping the 9,200 level, its biggest one-day advance on a point basis ever. (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/13/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2008101310)

Ok I am going to say something and try very hard not to offend people on here as I love you all dearly...but I have a big problem with folks using very temporary things in this world as a measure as to how close we are to the tribulation/Second Coming. Things like this have happened in the past and also affected the whole world's economy too! And it will probably continue being up and down for awhile then settle back to normal. I just really think its wrong to gauge the whole time ends on this..though I realize to the benefit of many of you, you aren't just using this but also watching other things too of course and believe its all coming together...but if this one big thing you were watching doesn't go as you thought it would..then what? Do you watch for something else to happen then?

That is what I usually see happen on these things....first its wild fires ...or a major earthquake somewhere, bad spring weather ...then that all dies down and nothing more is said about it...then something new comes along and everyone says ok this is it! Then that dies down out of the media ...so everyone watches for something else...and its this constant jumping around watching world events that are always changing yet the bible doesn't change... that bothers me alot.

Its like what is everyone going to do if you know who doesn't get elected for president...then you will have to look for someone else to be the AC and then that person doesn't pan out either so you look for someone else. (I have seen this happening like that for many years). Meanwhile the board is FILLED with posts where people are totally convinced...carved in stone, this..whatever is happening at the time..is it! Its true! Time is short because of such and such events and would give their left kidney over cause its so true...then it all fades away as things die down and its off to pointing to something else.

Does anyone else have a problem with this besides me?

I truly, truly do not want to hurt anyone or make anyone angry...or offend. But this is what I see on here...:( Its just I am 47 years old and have see this happening my whole life...and it never pans out like everyone is convinced it should. Maybe the problem is we are looking at the 'world' for answer to bible prophesies? To the media we know never tells us the whole truth and distorts what it does tell us? I don't know. All I know is something isn't working here doing it this way...

God bless


Yeah,But the Dow went down 777 points!!!

Joe King
Oct 18th 2008, 12:03 AM
I worry about the tribulation every day. The election can really relieve or increase that worry.

moonglow
Oct 18th 2008, 12:23 AM
Yeah,But the Dow went down 777 points!!!

Did you know on the internet when people type in large print...especially large bold print its considered yelling? Which is considered impolite...

please don't yell at me. Typing in large print tells me nothing except that you are yelling. If you have something to say...please say it. Thanks.

The dow went down to that one day...then days later went up too over 800 pts...then down then up then down..

The point of my post was why is anyone going by the stock market in the first place to decide whether the trib/rapture/Second coming of Christ is about to happen? The stock market crashed in the 30's...totally and complete crashed and the tribulation did not start then. So why go by it now as a gauge to whether the trib/rapture/Second coming is about to happen? I see nothing in the bible that says to watch the stock market for signs of these things...

I am sure the dow will fall again...go up again, fall again...it other words no one knows what it will do...


Joe King I worry about the tribulation every day. The election can really relieve or increase that worry.

I am sorry about that Joe...Jesus tells us over and over again to have no fear...I am sorry you do.

God bless

danield
Oct 18th 2008, 01:23 AM
I worry about the tribulation every day. The election can really relieve or increase that worry.

Joe, I too am sorry to see that you are overly concerned about the tribulation. You see no matter what happens, God will be there for his flock. I can only suggest that it may be helpful to start reading other sections of the Bible that shows us that we can have enormous confidence that God will be there for us. Have courage that no matter what happens, his love is there for you to shine brightly on your life. I notice that you live in Honolulu. What a wonderful place that God has allowed you to live and enjoy life. You are very lucky to live there in a time of peace and freedom to worship as you please. And Chances are that you will live a long fruitful life never ever experiencing anything associated with the tribulation. Here is just a short scripture that may help.

Matthew 10:29-32 9 What is the price of two sparrows-- one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. 30 And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. 31 So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. 32 "Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.


God Bless!

My heart's Desire
Oct 18th 2008, 01:41 AM
The biggest sign is what happens to and around Israel even if people don't know it. I look that direction and try not to be concerned about the rest, except how it relates to daily life. Say what you will, but I'm convinced~ Where's that can now? :D

moonglow
Oct 18th 2008, 01:45 AM
Joe, I too am sorry to see that you are overly concerned about the tribulation. You see no matter what happens, God will be there for his flock. I can only suggest that it may be helpful to start reading other sections of the Bible that shows us that we can have enormous confidence that God will be there for us. Have courage that no matter what happens, his love is there for you to shine brightly on your life. I notice that you live in Honolulu. What a wonderful place that God has allowed you to live and enjoy life. You are very lucky to live there in a time of peace and freedom to worship as you please. And Chances are that you will live a long fruitful life never ever experiencing anything associated with the tribulation. Here is just a short scripture that may help.


God Bless!

That was a truly lovely post...:) This is what all of us should be doing..on the verge of a trib or not! This is what the bible tells us to do...not sit around and talk about the terrible scary things that might happen...but to encourage, uplift and love each other. :) danield just showed a wonderful example of the Word in action...something we should all follow.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 18th 2008, 01:46 AM
The biggest sign is what happens to and around Israel even if people don't know it. I look that direction and try not to be concerned about the rest, except how it relates to daily life. Say what you will, but I'm convinced~ Where's that can now? :D

Convinced of what? That Christ will return?

So are the rest of us! :pp:pp


God bless

My heart's Desire
Oct 18th 2008, 01:47 AM
Oh, I will say one thing about the Wall Street thing....You cannot serve God and money.

My heart's Desire
Oct 18th 2008, 01:49 AM
Convinced of what? That Christ will return?

So are the rest of us! :pp:pp


God bless
Of course, its the biggest sign. I guess you can say I'm not fond of seeing a chip around every corner although I suppose they are there.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 18th 2008, 02:57 PM
Oh, I will say one thing about the Wall Street thing....You cannot serve God and money.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree 100 %

Look at what Wisdom says:

Wealth [gotten] by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase. Proverbs 13:11

Companies and banks that used fraud and deception to gain all that wealth.. by vanity.. lies and deception...they were preying on people like they are sharks in a fish cage.... and yes some of those banks and companies were pressured to do so.. some of those companies are NO MORE....
When I started watching this financial bubble burst.. I went to Proverbs and this verse just jumped out at me...

Notice how God Himself will honor good, honest, hard work by increase....

Paul also stated in the NT.. A man doesnt work he doesnt eat...

All of it is very simple really... God already 'own's' all the Silver and Gold... Its His.. its been His from the beginning.. He 'sees' and 'know's all the corruption that goes on with it...and He's still in control....

Those who are 'truly' Grounded in the Rock and on the Rock.. Jesus the Christ.. this flood shall beat against them and their lives.. but they shall still be standing when the flood waters receed.. untouched and unscathed.. their 'faith' even stronger in Trusting and Believing in Whom they have Trusted and Believed... the Rock.. Himself.. Jesus the Christ.. God manifest in the flesh...

TruthFaith
Oct 19th 2008, 12:37 AM
Did you know on the internet when people type in large print...especially large bold print its considered yelling? Which is considered impolite...

please don't yell at me. Typing in large print tells me nothing except that you are yelling. If you have something to say...please say it. Thanks.

The dow went down to that one day...then days later went up too over 800 pts...then down then up then down..

The point of my post was why is anyone going by the stock market in the first place to decide whether the trib/rapture/Second coming of Christ is about to happen? The stock market crashed in the 30's...totally and complete crashed and the tribulation did not start then. So why go by it now as a gauge to whether the trib/rapture/Second coming is about to happen? I see nothing in the bible that says to watch the stock market for signs of these things...

I am sure the dow will fall again...go up again, fall again...it other words no one knows what it will do...



I am sorry about that Joe...Jesus tells us over and over again to have no fear...I am sorry you do.

God bless


I am really sorry if you thought I was yelling at you, but I just put things in bold print to highlight what I am trying to say.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

moonglow
Oct 19th 2008, 01:36 AM
I am really sorry if you thought I was yelling at you, but I just put things in bold print to highlight what I am trying to say.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Ok thanks for explaining. Something I will enlarge some words in a verse from size 2 to 3 so its not overly large. And I know sometimes we get people on here with vision problems that have to use large print to see it...had a good friend on here like that ..she was legally blind...she was very old...passed away a few months ago. Anyway...thanks for clearing that up.

God bless

OneTime
Oct 19th 2008, 10:05 AM
Hey moonglow, good thoughts on the USA thing. We live in powerful times, that's for sure, and you made a lot of good points.

Either way, God will grab His nation. He knows who belongs to him. About that, we can be sure.

Veretax
Oct 19th 2008, 12:32 PM
I've been reading in James and I'm not sure if this is necessarily a judgement on wicked employers, or a sign of the end times, or possibly both, but let me share this with you (NKJV).

James 5: 1-6Rich Oppressors Will Be Judged
1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

We know that sin has consequences, both in this life and the next,however, i didn't stop at Verse 5:

Be Patient and Persevering
7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! 10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful. 12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment....


The language here seems to indicate that we as Believers need to be patient that the Lord is coming. Its not clear though whether this is meant as general prophecy against those who paid unjust wages, or if its a sign to a future time. Anyone have a thought about that?

ananias
Oct 20th 2008, 03:53 PM
Be Patient and Persevering
"... Therefore be patient, brethren, ...
... Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!"



Some posts in this thread seem to me to be less of examples of brothers disagreeing, and more examples of brothers grumbling against one another.

Whenever the Lord returns, pray God that we will all be found bearing one another's burdens and praying for one another.

ananias

Veretax
Oct 20th 2008, 04:56 PM
Right Ananinas, I missed discussing that in my post.. excellent point!