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Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 11:23 AM
Not only did Jesus sometimes speak using cryptic phrases and parables,
but he taught a topsy-turvy logic - showing us that God’s ways are different than our ways,
and God’s wisdom often seems foolish to those without the eyes and ears to perceive what the Spirit is saying.

Paul also tried to convey this to us, to the point that he sometimes seems to be arguing against himself.

What dichotomies have you found in the Bible?
What apparent contradictions actually show the wisdom of God?

Scripture quotes are good.
Even use two or more Scripture verses from various portions,
but also paraphrase if for us with a conclusion - to illustrate not only the dichotomy, but God’s wisdom.

How (in your own words) can we make sense of it? Just sum it up for us.

No restrictions on Bible versions, although I will start out using the more and less controversial/acceptable KJV. J

Underlining or bolding Scripture is acceptable and may even be helpful.
You can have some freedom to state accepted dogma without needing Scripture to back it up.
You may or may not wish to state that something is dogma or accepted doctrine.

If you pick a Beatitude (Matt 5) - just pick one. J

Sound interesting? What can you come up with?

It may even help us appreciate some of Paul’s predicament and effort –
as he sought the exact words to convey the truth and wisdom of God.

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 11:25 AM
Jesus speaking:
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luke 22:42

Dogma: God gave us free will.

In following the example of Jesus, we are to use our free will not to use our free will rather choosing Gods will over our own.

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 11:52 AM
"... For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen.2: 17)

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:" (Rom.5: 12)

Adam brought it upon Himself - God did not do it to him. Yet it is God's judgment falling upon Adam:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die..." (Eze.18: 20)

"Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation,..." (Rom.5: 18)

And "the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Eze.18: 20)

Yet:

"... therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation,..." (Rom.5: 18);

and Christ bore the iniquity of all:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." (Isa.53: 4-8)

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 11:58 AM
"... For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen.2: 17)

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:" (Rom.5: 12)

Adam brought it upon Himself - God did not do it to him. Yet it is God's judgment falling upon Adam:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die..." (Eze.18: 20)

"Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation,..." (Rom.5: 18)

And "the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Eze.18: 20)

Yet:

"... therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation,..." (Rom.5: 18);

and Christ bore the iniquity of all:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." (Isa.53: 4-8)
Thanks Ananias,
(Of course you can ;) )
Can you paraphase that for a conclusion?

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 12:14 PM
Thanks Ananias,
(Of course you can ;) )
Can you paraphase that for a conclusion?

You've confused me totally, Richard. I don't understand anything after, "Thanks Ananias" :confused

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 12:24 PM
You've confused me totally, Richard. I don't understand anything after, "Thanks Ananias" :confused

L.O.L.
I confuse myself sometimes.

Please give us a conclusion in your words - showing a peek into God's logic. How can we make sense of it? Just sum it up for us.

The wink and such - was to let you know - that I knew that you could. :)

Richard

ananias
Oct 14th 2008, 12:49 PM
L.O.L.
I confuse myself sometimes.

Please give us a conclusion in your words - showing a peek into God's logic. How can we make sense of it? Just sum it up for us.

The wink and such - was to let you know - that I knew that you could. :)

Richard

Oh, o.k, I'll try - but I can't guarantee that I can:


"... For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen.2: 17)

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:" (Rom.5: 12)

Adam brought it upon Himself - God did not do it to him. Yet it is God's judgment falling upon Adam:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die..." (Eze.18: 20)

"Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation,..." (Rom.5: 18)

And "the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Eze.18: 20)

Yet:

"... therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation,..." (Rom.5: 18);

and Christ bore the iniquity of all:

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." (Isa.53: 4-8)

Even though unbelief in the Word of God (which is what Adam must have entertained in his heart to believe instead the word of the serpent which contradicted the Word of God), is in effect calling God a liar, yet God is not willing that any should perish - but He is 100% just, and cannot allow the guilty to go unpunished, and besides, the result of sin IS both spiritual and physical death - it's a case of "cause and effect".

And although one man is not expected to pay for the iniquity of another man (even if it's the iniquity of his own father/ancestors), the problem is the original iniquity of our ancestor has been passed on, through human genes, to us, because Adam is man, and both the death and the propensity to sin that came with it, which came into Adam, came into man.

Furthermore, sinful man cannot bear the iniquity of sinful man, because his own sin diasqualifies him and brings death, not life. Therefore God Himself became a man, and came in the likeness of sinful man, dying instead of sinful man and bringing eternal life through His resurrection. This also satisfied the justice of the just One who is 100% just and therefore cannot allow sin to go unpunished and who is not willling that any should perish.

ananias

Richard H
Oct 14th 2008, 12:57 PM
Oh, o.k, I'll try - but I can't guarantee that I can:



Even though ...

And although ...
Furthermore, ...
ananias
Wow. You picked a hard one requirin' a lota 'splainin'. ;)
Good job! Thanks!

Richard

OK. I'm gunna sit back and see what you all can come up with. Thanks.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 14th 2008, 03:25 PM
God's Soverienty and Providence is confusing to many and hard to understand... Heres what I've learned.......


I"ll slip back into the Old Testament.. to Proverbs.. I find myself going there alot.. especially when confusing and stressfull times come.. Jesus Himself is the Wisdom of God.. I feel Himself speaking directly at me thru His Word... when reading Proverbs... when your in the 'will' of God.. God even makes your enemies to be at peace with you...

This is one that He taught me over the past 10 years... He taught me about His Sovereignty over all things... especially His enemies..


When a 'man's ways please' the LORD, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

Jesus has taught me to See, Hear, and Understand.. It took awhile for this to really sink in.. but once it did..... I understood His Sovereignty OVER EVERYTHING... the world and people don't understand.. that God is in control over everything!


When your in the 'will' of God.. Satan in his rebellion and deception will try to break that peace and comfort.. he will attempt to lie to you.. decieive you.. cause chaos, confusion.. etc.. he will many times make it appear as though its from God Himself.. using the Word against you deceitfully...... but he is a liar and a thief....

Look at what happens when that happens and we turn the battle over to the Lord Himself..

Even Pauls words...

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.



God shows that in the OT and NT He is Soveriegn... in total control......

σяєяυииєя
Oct 14th 2008, 09:08 PM
Hi Richard!!


-|> Well, I will share a little bit about what we are studying in the church for this week, or rather what I have understood so far :]

We are studying the theme of Gospel Order:

A part of this chapter involves a question as:

Whether or not God used force in this verse:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

And as God doesn`t use the force, how then was first the dragon cast out?

Furthermore if this heavenly war was physically speaking then God, as of who was stronger then it was God, but as God doesn`t kill as portrayed in His commandments in Exodus 20. And the weapons of God are love, righteousness, mercy, then here comes the text of :

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.



But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.



So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matt. 13:24>>


Likewise in heaven, when Lucifer deceived a therd of the Angels, God didn`t changed, in order to use force and finish it at once, but "allowed" them [the dragon and his angels] to come to the earth where:


"-God created man for His own glory, that after test and trial the human family might become one with the heavenly family. It was God's purpose to re-populate heaven with the human family, if they would show themselves obedient to His every word. Adam was to be tested, to see whether he would be obedient, as the loyal angels, or disobedient. If he stood the test, his instruction to his children would have been only of loyalty. His mind and thoughts would have been as the mind and thoughts of God. He would have been taught by God as His husbandry and building. His character would have been moulded in accordance with the character of God (Letter 91, 1900)."


In addition the Scriptures we see how God takes up personal responsability for everything He does or allows to happen, as we read in the book of Job [the man who practiced Gospel Order]:

How Satan came to Him after "going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." On a "day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

And God said: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:8

Then Satan answered that it was just for selfish reasons. Then God answered: Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.

And all Job`s cattle and almost all servants, and sons and daughters suddenly died.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.


But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.


And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. Job 2:1>>


So here we see how even though it was Satan who did it all to Job, God yet said: thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.




Finally, when we read;



"..he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. "Revelation 12:9

It does not mean, our Heavenly Father pushed/threw/undertook them to the earth using the force.

God bless


______________________
All peace

-"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation..."[Salvation from what?.]
-Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Romans 1:16; John 8:34; Jude 1:24-25.)

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5459/natureavyty7.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3020/lifesigyyt9.gif

Biastai
Oct 15th 2008, 01:18 AM
Very nice idea for a thread.

I'll go with the purity laws. There are countless examples of these i.e. Leviticus 15 on bodily discharges.

These laws may be dismissed as unnecessary ritualism at first glance. We may be tempted to just skip them when we read through the whole Bible.

Spend some time thinking of the situation of the Israelites and it makes perfect sense. In a camp of 600000+ nomads, it would be devastating for a communicable disease to outbreak among the people. God provides protection through these laws for the Israelites during their trek across the desert. Plus it gives them guidelines in terms they can understand. Imagine sitting these Israelites down and trying to teach them about microorganisms and blood borne diseases!

Levin
Oct 15th 2008, 10:50 AM
Richard,

It seems very foolish to me that God would use criminals to spread His gospel. Jesus was executed at the hands of the local government. How much creedance would we give to a man that was executed by our government? Even though the gospels (especially Luke) make a great case for His innocence, it is mind-boggling for me to think that the God of the universe would let Himself be accused and convicted at the hands of His creation. I really don't know how to make sense of this in a way that God is shown wise, but I know that in the end it will be known that His death as a criminal was purposed to frustrate the wisdom of men.

Secondly, the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, was in prison for much of his writing life. Would we listen to a man writing us letters about God from prison? This also seems very backwards from our way of thinking. Criminals are not usually seen as trustworthy, but God uses a criminal in chains to champion His gospel of freedom. This is crazy in my opinion; however, God used it for His great purposes.

Great thread,
Levin

Richard H
Oct 15th 2008, 03:57 PM
I’ve been enjoying everyone’s posts. J
Thank you for contributing, so far.
I did go back and change the range to: the full Bible - as the NT is indeed based on the OT.

Levin’s post really brought to light the “foolishness” of the Gospel, and so I’ve put together a collection of verses (below).

Thanks everybody, and keep ‘em coming.
Richard

All except the last are from the NASB.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Corinthians 1:18-25

"The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?
Jeremiah 8:9

Thus says the LORD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches;
but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD.
Jeremiah 9:23,24

And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
2Corinthians 12:10

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Corinthians 15:42,43

For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.
1Corinthians 13:4

For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:3,4

And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
Matthew 2:6

σяєяυииєя
Oct 15th 2008, 04:31 PM
This is crazy in my opinion; however, God used it for His great purposes.

Rigth and It reminds me of :

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are...

That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:26-28; 31.

Go well

Richard H
Oct 15th 2008, 10:57 PM
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:3

Youd think that the rich in Spirit would be blessed,
but it is those who recognize their own inability to be righteous in the eyes of God,
who must depend on the sufficiency of what Jesus did,
instead of relying on a righteousness of the flesh.