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View Full Version : tithing vs. debt / wife vs. husband????



itsokimadocter
Oct 15th 2008, 12:55 AM
my wife and i have come to a wall in our opinion of priorities. i thought i would post here and hopefully gain some wisdom on the matter.

i am of the school of thought that faith is obeying God no matter how i feel because he promises a good result...

that being said here is our predicament.

we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now. we just had a baby 5 months ago and we desperately want my wife to stay home with our child. problem being is that debt payment owed to creditors ( mortgage, school loans etc) prevents us from being able to have my wife stop working. my wife is feeling as though she is not fulfilling her role as a mother since she is at work all day and is crushed over the situation. she states that if we were to stop tithing and pay off our debt and buy a cheaper house...she could stay home with our kids. im all for the getting a cheaper house and paying off debt, thats all great, im not attatched to any of our possessions. the part that i am wondering if i should take a stand on...being the spiritual leader of our household is, the discontinuation of our tithe. my wife says she bitter over the tithe because she says it prevents us from paying of debt quicker & i know God desires a cheerful giver, but what if only one of you is cheerful about it? i on the other hand cant wait to see my paycheck so i can find out how much my tithe will be. i feel as though we are robbing God (MAL 3:10) if we all together stop tithing. i feel like not tithing is relying on our own ways and not having faith that if we are faithful to Him in our finances, He will provide a way. i have searched all over for a solid biblical answer to our problem, but have only found extremes (tithing is OT and not for us, or tithing is required). i want to please my wife, but at the same time, God's priorities are one notch above that of my wifes.

bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd

amazzin
Oct 15th 2008, 01:00 AM
Let me put it to you this way.

What if you were employed and your boss said "I am in debt and cannot pay you this week"?

Our response would be, "well why did he go get himself into debt. why does he spend so much? Can't he control his expenses?"

Likewise....get your financial house in order and return to God what is rightfully His. There is a blessing attached to a heart given offering unto the Lord. I pray you will experience it

Maz
Oct 15th 2008, 01:36 AM
my wife and i have come to a wall in our opinion of priorities. i thought i would post here and hopefully gain some wisdom on the matter.

i am of the school of thought that faith is obeying God no matter how i feel because he promises a good result...

that being said here is our predicament.

we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now. we just had a baby 5 months ago and we desperately want my wife to stay home with our child. problem being is that debt payment owed to creditors ( mortgage, school loans etc) prevents us from being able to have my wife stop working. my wife is feeling as though she is not fulfilling her role as a mother since she is at work all day and is crushed over the situation. she states that if we were to stop tithing and pay off our debt and buy a cheaper house...she could stay home with our kids. im all for the getting a cheaper house and paying off debt, thats all great, im not attatched to any of our possessions. the part that i am wondering if i should take a stand on...being the spiritual leader of our household is, the discontinuation of our tithe. my wife says she bitter over the tithe because she says it prevents us from paying of debt quicker & i know God desires a cheerful giver, but what if only one of you is cheerful about it? i on the other hand cant wait to see my paycheck so i can find out how much my tithe will be. i feel as though we are robbing God (MAL 3:10) if we all together stop tithing. i feel like not tithing is relying on our own ways and not having faith that if we are faithful to Him in our finances, He will provide a way. i have searched all over for a solid biblical answer to our problem, but have only found extremes (tithing is OT and not for us, or tithing is required). i want to please my wife, but at the same time, God's priorities are one notch above that of my wifes.

bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd
I could write a book about all this. I tithed for 12 years and only recently quit tithing. It would take a book to say why. But I started tithing to give and ended up tithing to get. And I got nothing. I would contest the tithe issue in favor very hotly at a time. But I am 4 years from retirement and owe now more than I ever owed in my life. I can pay the 5 figure debt by the time I am 65 if I throw everything at it. And that is what I intend to do. That leaves me no time to get ahead. I will repent to God and man if I am finally proven wrong. And I would love to be proven wrong. Meanwhile, "I owe I owe, it's off to work I go." God see all things and He sees my heart as I write this. "Prove me now herewith" He said. Do so Lord, and I will make it right later.

jponb
Oct 15th 2008, 02:19 AM
Tithing is a very sticky subject. First, it has been taught improperly. When you go back into the book of Leviticus and actually see how and when tithing was to be given it would really blow you away compared to how we tithe today. Tithing in most churches are actually administered improperly. I know a lot of people say let God worry about that; but He did instruct us to be good stewards; therefore I think we need to give it some concern ourselves. We don't tithe in order to get a blessing from God, but because God has already blessed us.

diffangle
Oct 15th 2008, 02:27 AM
my wife and i have come to a wall in our opinion of priorities. i thought i would post here and hopefully gain some wisdom on the matter.

i am of the school of thought that faith is obeying God no matter how i feel because he promises a good result...

that being said here is our predicament.

we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now. we just had a baby 5 months ago and we desperately want my wife to stay home with our child. problem being is that debt payment owed to creditors ( mortgage, school loans etc) prevents us from being able to have my wife stop working. my wife is feeling as though she is not fulfilling her role as a mother since she is at work all day and is crushed over the situation. she states that if we were to stop tithing and pay off our debt and buy a cheaper house...she could stay home with our kids. im all for the getting a cheaper house and paying off debt, thats all great, im not attatched to any of our possessions. the part that i am wondering if i should take a stand on...being the spiritual leader of our household is, the discontinuation of our tithe. my wife says she bitter over the tithe because she says it prevents us from paying of debt quicker & i know God desires a cheerful giver, but what if only one of you is cheerful about it? i on the other hand cant wait to see my paycheck so i can find out how much my tithe will be. i feel as though we are robbing God (MAL 3:10) if we all together stop tithing. i feel like not tithing is relying on our own ways and not having faith that if we are faithful to Him in our finances, He will provide a way. i have searched all over for a solid biblical answer to our problem, but have only found extremes (tithing is OT and not for us, or tithing is required). i want to please my wife, but at the same time, God's priorities are one notch above that of my wifes.

bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd
Could your wife stay home if you gave 1 or 2% of your income instead of 10? Nothing in the Scriptures say you have to give 10% of your income. The 10% mentioned in the OT was food that was given to the Levitical priests, there isn't a Levitical priesthood anymore and I highly doubt that your pastor is of Levite decent. You also have to take into account that a large percentage of your tax money goes to help the poor(welfare, illegal immigrants) so you could consider that a portion of your tithe.

diffangle
Oct 15th 2008, 02:32 AM
Tithing in most churches are actually administered improperly

So true.

15 characters

Whispering Grace
Oct 15th 2008, 02:36 AM
my wife and i have come to a wall in our opinion of priorities. i thought i would post here and hopefully gain some wisdom on the matter.

i am of the school of thought that faith is obeying God no matter how i feel because he promises a good result...

that being said here is our predicament.

we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now. we just had a baby 5 months ago and we desperately want my wife to stay home with our child. problem being is that debt payment owed to creditors ( mortgage, school loans etc) prevents us from being able to have my wife stop working. my wife is feeling as though she is not fulfilling her role as a mother since she is at work all day and is crushed over the situation. she states that if we were to stop tithing and pay off our debt and buy a cheaper house...she could stay home with our kids. im all for the getting a cheaper house and paying off debt, thats all great, im not attatched to any of our possessions. the part that i am wondering if i should take a stand on...being the spiritual leader of our household is, the discontinuation of our tithe. my wife says she bitter over the tithe because she says it prevents us from paying of debt quicker & i know God desires a cheerful giver, but what if only one of you is cheerful about it? i on the other hand cant wait to see my paycheck so i can find out how much my tithe will be. i feel as though we are robbing God (MAL 3:10) if we all together stop tithing. i feel like not tithing is relying on our own ways and not having faith that if we are faithful to Him in our finances, He will provide a way. i have searched all over for a solid biblical answer to our problem, but have only found extremes (tithing is OT and not for us, or tithing is required). i want to please my wife, but at the same time, God's priorities are one notch above that of my wifes.

bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd

Hi Todd,

Does your wife understand that she is having to work not because you tithe, but because of past financial decisions that you (both) have made?

(By the way, I respect and admire your spirit. I personally think you are right on as the head of your home with putting God first and being a cheerful giver, although as a mother of 4, I understand your wife's desire to be at home.)

livingwaters
Oct 15th 2008, 03:17 AM
Itsokimadocter, please stay with tithing!!! The Bible was inspired by God, and it is not our job to change it. What was intended to help HIS children back then, is still intended to help HIS children today. But, the devil is the father of all lies. Satan wants you to cave, so he can come in and cunningly get your wife to spend the money elsewhere, instead of for the Father's part, the tithe. All I can say, is that when you're "in it" for the right reasons, it works...Alleluia!!!!!!:pp:pp:pp:lol:

God Bless:)

militarywife
Oct 15th 2008, 03:36 AM
I would tithe. Praise God He has promised to meet all our needs and more. What a blessing to have momma home with the baby...especially in these days.
:hug:

Dani H
Oct 15th 2008, 03:41 AM
Why don't you give God your 100% and leave it up to Him how He wants it distributed?

That is what stewardship means. Understand that all you have and all you are belongs to God, and take care of it according to His direction.

Sure, your debts put you in the predicament you're in, but should your child go without his/her mom to pay for that? There's ways we pay that have nothing to do with money ...

Levin
Oct 15th 2008, 09:52 AM
Itsokimadocter,

Thank you so much for your honesty in trying to understand what God wants you to do with your finances. Here are my thoughts on the issue:

1) The "tithe" in the Mosiac Covenant was not 10%. Between offerings, tithes, firstfruits offerings, and firstborn redemption, I have heard that most families paid around 35% to the Levites, Priests, and ultimately to I AM. These tithes served as a kind of tax to maintain the priesthood and centralized theocratic government of Israel, while theologically maintaining and acknowlegding the reality that I AM is the giver of all things.

2) Seeing that we no longer live in a theocratic state where priests mediate between God and men, that these priests no longer provide our government, that we no longer follow a sacrificial system (we do, but there is just one sacrifice and it is finished), and that we have a new covenant where we are free from the law, it is no longer necessary for us to follow the letter of the OT tithe commands. There would be no way for us to follow them even if we wanted to. The temple is destroyed and we had better not offer up animals for remission of sin and thus blaspheme the cross of Christ. We should follow the theological truths of this system, and acknowledge that God is the source of all things in how we handle money and what (and where) we give. We need to continue to give freely because of the provision in the OT for a freewill offering that went beyond the normal set of tithes and offerings. The OT paints a vibrant picture of how I AM is to be worshipped through material possessions.

3) The main NT teaching on giving is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15:
The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written,
"He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever."
He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God. For the ministry of this service is not only supplying the needs of the saints but is also overflowing in many thanksgivings to God. By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission flowing from your confession of the gospel of Christ, and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others, while they long for you and pray for you, because of the surpassing grace of God upon you. Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

It seems clear to me that in this passage Paul is making it clear that there is a new paradigm in giving. Christians are to give in a way that is "cheerful." I think that to live this out practically means to only give so much that you can give with joy. If that means giving a nickel, then give a nickel. Hopefully you will be able to give more and more and be more and more cheerful the more you give. I think that most churches are being shafted by teaching a giving rule of 10%. People can give 20%, 30%, or 50% and be more cheerful than they were giving 10%.

4) On being in debt:
Paul, in Romans 13:8, says "Owe no one anything, except to love each other." I think that it is Biblical to get out of debt as fast as possible, and not remain tied to the economies of this Earth.

I hope that this has been helpful. Perhaps the most helpful thing you could do is to read a book by Randy Alcorn, called Money, Possessions, and Eternity.

In Christ,
Levin

Fighting Instinct
Oct 15th 2008, 04:03 PM
bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd
Todd, I have been having just about the same problem in my marriage. Just recently, I came back to Christ after a long seperation that I am not proud of. I wanted to start tithing right away, but my wife said we didn't have enough money. I am from the same school of thought that says we have unconditional faith in God, no matter what. Just recently, after a lot of prayer for her and the situation, she has agreed to start tithing. It is not a full 10%, but we are stilll giving to the church and God's ministry. My advice to you is pray. Pray a lot. Pray more than you even feel comfortable to pray. Prayer changes things. Keep the faith and I will be praying for you and your wife.

- Jerry

itsokimadocter
Oct 15th 2008, 06:39 PM
Thank you all for the replies. i have not made a decision, but bottom line is that our giving will continue, a full 10%...maybe less. my wife and i are going to sit down and make a strict debt payment plan so we can get an idea of when she could stay home with our kids. we both WANT to give more, i pray God will make a way.

in Christs Love,
todd

Slug1
Oct 15th 2008, 07:07 PM
Thank you all for the replies. i have not made a decision, but bottom line is that our giving will continue, a full 10%...maybe less. my wife and i are going to sit down and make a strict debt payment plan so we can get an idea of when she could stay home with our kids. we both WANT to give more, i pray God will make a way.

in Christs Love,
toddWhen you do this are you familiar with what can be called a "power payment' method?

Bascially (this is only an example)... say you have $500 going to 5 debts. The payments are 1. $50, 2. $75, 3. $75, 4. $100, and 5. $200. Based on those debts find the minimum payment for each of the 5. Let's say once you add all these minimum payments up it's... $250. You already have budgeted $500 to all these 5 debts.

So, pay the minimum on each except for one... usually the one with the lowest total amount and add that additional $250. Say for example it's #1 at $50 for each month and the total debt is $600 with a minimum payment of $25... now you are paying $275 a month till it's done in about 2-3 months.

Then you take that free $275 and add it to the next debt... say it's #2 at $75 each month and the total debt is $1000 with a minimum payment of $50. Now you have $325 going to that debt each month.

Repeat this till you have all $500 going to the largest dept.

This process will "usually" reduce the period of time to reach a self-inflicted debt status in almost 1/2 the time. The savings in interest alone can be thousands of dollars based on the amount of debt and interest involved.

Hope this helps you follow through with your budget and debt pay off.

Bethany67
Oct 15th 2008, 07:17 PM
In practical terms, you may want to try plugging your debt details into this debt calculator. The idea is that you throw the most money to the debt with the highest rate of interest, called 'snowballing':

http://www.whatsthecost.com/snowball.aspx

Although it's in £ and not $, the principle is the same. You'll pay less interest in the long run, but I understand the psychological boost of paying off a smaller debt and being totally rid of it.

Whispering Grace
Oct 15th 2008, 07:35 PM
Thank you all for the replies. i have not made a decision, but bottom line is that our giving will continue, a full 10%...maybe less. my wife and i are going to sit down and make a strict debt payment plan so we can get an idea of when she could stay home with our kids. we both WANT to give more, i pray God will make a way.

in Christs Love,
todd

God bless you, brother. Next year, we will have paid off over $50,000 in debt (in 5 years). It has been a long, hard process, but it has been worth it. And now that I am finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, I can't tell you how wonderful it feels.

The mountain of debt occured before I became a Christian. I've lived 100% within my means ever since I gave my life to Jesus Christ, but I'm still paying the price for my past decisions before I knew the Lord.

I pray you and your wife will find a way to tithe and have her stay home. :hug:

flybaby
Oct 15th 2008, 07:40 PM
I have a question: who pays the bills in your house? Not whose money pays the bills, but who physically sits down and makes sure there is enough money to around each month?

In my house it is me (the wife) and I know that makes me resentful at times to money going places other than bills (including debt) and food to feed my little ones. So, maybe this is where your wife is coming from in her resentment. I know that for me, the stress of making sure the money is there to cover everything hangs on my head alone and it is extremely stressful. There are many nights that I lay awake just figuring out how to make it the next couple of days without breaking the budget. I give up so much just so that we can afford to keep living.

So, if it is your wife paying the bills, see if this is something you can take over to relieve her of the stress. It might be she is not so unwilling to give tithes if she isn't the one laying awake at night.

itsokimadocter
Oct 15th 2008, 08:27 PM
I have a question: who pays the bills in your house? Not whose money pays the bills, but who physically sits down and makes sure there is enough money to around each month?

In my house it is me (the wife) and I know that makes me resentful at times to money going places other than bills (including debt) and food to feed my little ones. So, maybe this is where your wife is coming from in her resentment. I know that for me, the stress of making sure the money is there to cover everything hangs on my head alone and it is extremely stressful. There are many nights that I lay awake just figuring out how to make it the next couple of days without breaking the budget. I give up so much just so that we can afford to keep living.

So, if it is your wife paying the bills, see if this is something you can take over to relieve her of the stress. It might be she is not so unwilling to give tithes if she isn't the one laying awake at night.

My wife does all the bills and i have agreed to get involved now, but she doesnt have an issue with tithing...she wants to tithe, but staying home with our baby is more important to her than the tithe. we can pay all our bills and tithe as long as we are both working, but we dont want her to work.

Whispering Grace
Oct 15th 2008, 08:44 PM
Todd, is there any way your wife can work part time, around your schedule?

That would cut out daycare costs as well as allowing her to be home with the child more.

flybaby
Oct 15th 2008, 08:54 PM
Have y'all written out all the expenses associated with her working compared to how much she actually makes? These expenses include daycare, fuel to and from work as well as daycare, extra lunches out, new clothes for her to look nice at work, extra eating out expenses because you are both too tired to cook, etc.

I know that when I did that, I realized that it was cheaper for me to just stay home! Now, I don't know what type of job your wife has, so I don't know that it will be the cheaper option, but it might just make it close enough to make it worth the effort.

wheatbread
Oct 16th 2008, 08:37 AM
Have you thought of giving your time in lieu of cash? Volunteering some of the extra time not working can be of much greater service than a cash donation.
I was a latch key kid and my son grew up with both parents working. There is no substitute for a parent being home for their child, and we are not making the same mistake with our daughter.
You don't get a second chance to raise your kids.

superwoman8977
Oct 16th 2008, 06:14 PM
My advice..dont stop tithing! I know I am a single mom and when I dont tithe we struggle to get through, I also know your wife wants to stay at home with the kids but in this day and age is that feasible? I know I have worked and had 2 (will have 3 in february) and have worked outside the home since I was 16 years old. When my husband left me I was able to stand on my own 2 feet thanks to my tithing faith in the Lord and the fact that I was strong enough to know God will take care of me and my kids through all the stuff. My pastor has explained tithing like this to me. God is the blessor I am the blessed and I am also to go out into the world and be blessings to others, and thats what tithing allows me to do. I dont give 10% just to the church I also give a percentage to the church in my hometown for their building fund and I have several ministries I am a partner of. God has blessed me beyond my wildest dreams because I have remained faithful to Him. Also no one has mentioned it but you are the man --the Head of the household and the decision on tithing you should have a say in it. JMHO. Prayers to you and your family. :pray:

Veretax
Oct 18th 2008, 01:24 AM
I feel for you. My wife and I were in a similar circumstance. We got married with a year left in college (for me). She had a full time Job, and the little part time gig wasn't a lot, but it appeared we could make ends meet. Then the unthinkable happened. She got very ill, wasn't able to work, and hence no pay for a while. After finally getting her several banks of tests, two surgeries later, and I found myself with multiple credit cards (which I never planned to use) at or near limit, and I didn't have a high enough income to pay them off. Those were rough times. Fortunately when I graduated I was able to move in with family so we could devote more money to defray debt.

During those hardships though I still gave what I could to God, sometimes perhaps more than I should have. In any case, We don't "tithe" like most do, I'd love to give more, but I know that God provided me a Job and it has to sustain us. I am of the belief that God would want me out from under this mountain of debt as quickly as possible, and its not been easy after suffering two pay cut before finally changing to a job (with pay less than what I started at over the course of 3 years). We got our budget in order, and Lord willing will have all but the largest of our two credit cards paid off next year (plus an unexpected bill from Uncle Sam). What we've done in the meantime is before spending our cash that's left over, what little is there, we try to give a portion of that excess to God. It isn't much, but we give it cheerfully in the hope that he can multiply it for us.

One other thing to consider though, it not just your money God wants, but your time, and involvement in his work. My wife and I spend a lot of time helping around the church. Both of us are in the CHoir, and she has just taken over the job as the Church Clerk. So don't let this be a discouragement to you. God can deliver you from this debt, and while it may be harder if she leaves her job, thats a decision you and she along with God alone can make I think.

Lyndie
Oct 18th 2008, 06:39 PM
One way you may want to look at it is this-
God wants obedience, not sacrifice. (yes, some say tithing is being obedient). However what are you sacrificing to be obedient? Your wife would be sacrificing (metaphorically) your children and them growing up in the Lord. IMO, I believe God would want your wife to be home raising Godly children, more than your money. Give what you can, with a cheerful heart, and He will bless you for it.

cdo
Oct 21st 2008, 03:20 AM
Hi,
I understand how the both of you have different opinions,but I wouldn't stop tithing.I believe as long as you put your trust in God to supply all your needs you have nothing to worry about.Tithing has God's blessing for your giving.But we must give with a cheerful heart and not grudge against it.Your the man of your home and family and it's up to you to make the decisions of the house hold. You say your wife doesn't want to give so her part would be in no faith of giving.God blesses those with a cheerful heart as they give.God's word will not return void to His promises.It all has to do with obedience to God and faith in believing.
I am proof of tithing my 10% and my needs are all met plus more.
God Bless you and I pray you make the right decision.

livingwaters
Oct 21st 2008, 03:53 AM
PLEASE DO NOT STOP TITHING. WE OWE HIM SO MUCH MORE THAN THE LITTLE BIT WE GIVE!!!! DON'T YOU AGREE?????? YOU BE FAITHFUL AND HE IS ALWAYS FAITHFUL!!!!!!AMEN:pp:pp:pp

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 11:51 AM
the all caps and large font are really not necessary.

So let me offer a counter question. To those who mismanaged their money earlier in life, and got into debt. Are you advocating, defaulting on said debt in order to keep the tithe? I'm a believer that God wants us to live up to our promises, and paying of debt is one of them.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 12:02 PM
Tithing is long gone. Tithe according to the Bible (OT) or not at all. Somewhere down the road, pastors quit relying on God to supply all of the body's needs and started relying on the flock. Sad. What's worse, many Christians have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker without ever looking at scripture with the exception of a few prooftexts.

Whispering Grace
Oct 21st 2008, 12:44 PM
the all caps and large font are really not necessary.

So let me offer a counter question. To those who mismanaged their money earlier in life, and got into debt. Are you advocating, defaulting on said debt in order to keep the tithe? I'm a believer that God wants us to live up to our promises, and paying of debt is one of them.

I believe when we are faithful to God first, He will be faithful to us in allowing us to pay off our debt.

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 12:59 PM
I believe when we are faithful to God first, He will be faithful to us in allowing us to pay off our debt.

Granted, I understand your point of view here, unfortunately I believe that God promises certain provisions. I and my spouse made mistakes with finances during my last year of College, and we are now working to pay for said consequences. I don't like not being able to give more than we do, and the thing that really scares me is I know of people my age who have far more debt than even I got into, and yet I've been struggling from pay check to pay check, had two cuts in pay at my prior job, and still x years at this job are not back to where I was when I started working professionally.

Note that, I don't blame God for the shock to the economy that was caused by 9/11, he helped provide for us by providing us shelter with family, but the part time work I found while searching for a job in my called occupation took a year to materialize, did not provide enough to pay everything we'd become in debt too. It was a hardship in our life, and for a time I was moved to a state of severe depression.

All my life I had believed and trusted that God would provide me work after College. The thought that it could take a year or more to find the first real job never factored into my thinking. In that time frame, my wife came to term and gave birth to our son, and it was in the midst of that blessing that the job I'd longed for finally came. However, I suffered at that place of employment, I was misused, mistreated, and ostracized for my faith by the owner. It drove me into the world and I trusted that he'd deliver us through all that even as my pay was cut twice, as we barely managed to keep up with all of our debts. BTW, my debts aren't like some. I didn't buy a fancy new computer, or a new car (except to replace the one that I had been in an road hazard accident that was not my fault. This was a blessing because the new car was safer for our child to be taken around in but that set us back a couple of years on debt repayment.) we've had a series of medical issues that have tested our faith, at one point I was even told I might have a brain tumor, yet when all the tests were done, my faith though slammed and discouraged was answered and the symptom that made them believe that lie was no where to be found, and the doctor could not explain.

I know its not easy, I'm convinced the Lord wants me free from this bad debt, and I believe he has something he will want me to do with what remains once it is done, but until then we are eeking out an existence the only way we know how.

cdo
Oct 21st 2008, 01:56 PM
Tithing is long gone. I have to disagree with you on this. It's still very much around for those that follow His word on giving and His promise He made to us all.
Tithe according to the Bible (OT) or not at all.Tithing/Givinging is O.T. & N. T. is still giving to our Lord 'as He blesses us' accordingly.
Somewhere down the road, pastors quit relying on God to supply all of the body's needs and started relying on the flock. Sad. I also disagree ,Paul said: how shall (they) go unless (they) be sent.
What's worse, many Christians have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker without ever looking at scripture with the exception of a few prooftexts. No, Many Christians take God at His word and His promise.The NT. gives Scripture on giving....God loves a cheerful heart.....Give and it shall be given back some 30,60, and 100.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 02:06 PM
Feel free to disagree, but please do so scripturally.


Where is a command to tithe in the NT?

Do you tithe according to the command in the OT?

Where was tithing ever money?

Who was the tithe for?

Who was Malachi written to?

How does what was going on in Neh Chapter 8 coincide with Malachi?

Is there any biblical record of anyone other than a Jew, still under the law, ever giving tithes?

Since you take God at His word, these questions should be really easy for you.

superwoman8977
Oct 21st 2008, 02:08 PM
Tithing is long gone. Tithe according to the Bible (OT) or not at all. Somewhere down the road, pastors quit relying on God to supply all of the body's needs and started relying on the flock. Sad. What's worse, many Christians have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker without ever looking at scripture with the exception of a few prooftexts.

Okay I totally dont agree with what you just said. Do you know how churches are ran? They are ran with finances by church members. There is no fairy that just magically gives them money. My church back in my hometown devotes the month of October to stewardship and the last Sunday of the month asks you to pledge your tithe for next year and then the Finance Committee gets together in November and plans the budget for the church and what programs are going to stay on for the next year and what programs are going to be cut. Even though I dont live in my hometown anymore I still fill out a pledge card and I still pledge a part of my tithe to my hometown church (which I am a member of). It urks me to no end when I see people using the resources and the classes of the church and cannot even give any of their income. My parents used to be like that and I vowed I would even though I live 4 hrs away still tithe a portion to my hometown church no matter what.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 02:08 PM
Give and it shall be given back some 30,60, and 100.

Please show me any where in scripture that this promise has been made concerning giving...

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 02:13 PM
Okay I totally dont agree with what you just said. Do you know how churches are ran? They are ran with finances by church members. There is no fairy that just magically gives them money. My church back in my hometown devotes the month of October to stewardship and the last Sunday of the month asks you to pledge your tithe for next year and then the Finance Committee gets together in November and plans the budget for the church and what programs are going to stay on for the next year and what programs are going to be cut. Even though I dont live in my hometown anymore I still fill out a pledge card and I still pledge a part of my tithe to my hometown church (which I am a member of). It urks me to no end when I see people using the resources and the classes of the church and cannot even give any of their income. My parents used to be like that and I vowed I would even though I live 4 hrs away still tithe a portion to my hometown church no matter what.

Yes, I know how churches are ran. I am a pastor. I have never taken a tithe in my entire ministry. God said he would provide for my every need and He always has, without a tithe. I feed my entire church every Sunday. I run two buses, all without a tithe. I rely on the Holy Spirit to move on the hearts of those that God sends my way, nothing more. It can be done, the question is, do we (pastors) have enough faith to rely on God and not put our congregations under the bondage of the law?

Please see my previous post and respond to the questions.

BroRog
Oct 21st 2008, 02:32 PM
Have you thought of giving your time in lieu of cash? Volunteering some of the extra time not working can be of much greater service than a cash donation.
I was a latch key kid and my son grew up with both parents working. There is no substitute for a parent being home for their child, and we are not making the same mistake with our daughter.
You don't get a second chance to raise your kids.

There is wisdom in this.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 02:36 PM
It urks me to no end when I see people using the resources and the classes of the church and cannot even give any of their income.

Church is not a commodity to be bought and sold. Some have and some do not. How do you know if they give or not?!?!? Are the widows supposed to tithe? How about the orphans?

RZ06
Oct 21st 2008, 02:42 PM
One way you may want to look at it is this-
God wants obedience, not sacrifice. (yes, some say tithing is being obedient). However what are you sacrificing to be obedient? Your wife would be sacrificing (metaphorically) your children and them growing up in the Lord. IMO, I believe God would want your wife to be home raising Godly children, more than your money. Give what you can, with a cheerful heart, and He will bless you for it.

I agree...

I'm a stay at home mom to our 2 children, but I remember when I had to work briefly when we just had our first. It absolutely broke my heart. I cried for a week. I just knew in my heart our child was best off with me and if we didn't have to have me work, then I shouldn't be.

If you can afford to have your wife home and only give a small percent for tithing, I would do that. I agree w/ what a few others have said that your children are more important right now then tithing 10%. Get your debt paid down and when your finances are in order- then start to tithe the 10% if you feel you need to.

Get involved in your church. Since your wife would be a stay at home mom, she can devote some of her time to your church (that's what I do now) during the day (they have a nursery there for her to leave the baby in for an hour or two), as well as any other times with you two together.

cdo
Oct 21st 2008, 02:49 PM
Please show me any where in scripture that this promise has been made concerning giving...
The scripture which you were asking for....I have not found as yet.
The scripture that goes withe giving is : Luke 6:38
I will find the other scripture.

superwoman8977
Oct 21st 2008, 02:51 PM
Yes, I know how churches are ran. I am a pastor. I have never taken a tithe in my entire ministry. God said he would provide for my every need and He always has, without a tithe. I feed my entire church every Sunday. I run two buses, all without a tithe. I rely on the Holy Spirit to move on the hearts of those that God sends my way, nothing more. It can be done, the question is, do we (pastors) have enough faith to rely on God and not put our congregations under the bondage of the law?

Please see my previous post and respond to the questions.

You want me to go there okay I will go there. The reason I tithe is because of Malachi chapter 3 especially the words about robbing God. Those words hit me like a knife, why would I want to rob God? My pastor put it to us this way, God is the blessor, He wants to bless us and in turn we are to be blessings to others. My scripture is Malachi 3, it doesnt matter whether its in the NT its in the Word of God and I want to be like Him which means I follow the word. I think its very sad that you dont urge your members to tithe because to me tithe is as much about having a relationship with the Lord as prayer and time in the word. I know as a single mom when I dont tithe I struggle and when I do my tithe the Lord blesses me over and over and then in turn I can be a blessing to others. One of my favorite people the way they tithe is Rick Warren. He lives on 10% and tithes on 90%. I would love to someday be able to tithe more than my 10% so that is my goal. I am also teaching my children that they need to tithe their allowance as well as money they get from Grandma...we have a saying at our home....10% and more if we can give it, goes to God. God has blessed me and my kids over and above what we ever thought.

Noblesurvey
Oct 21st 2008, 03:04 PM
Hi itsokimadocter!

I am obviously no biblical scholar but I would have to suggest to you, that you continue to tithe what you can to the Lord.

The most important thing is that you tithe what you can afford, and what your heart is comfortable with after praying to God about the issue. I am convinced that a loving god such as ours would not want your child or your marriage to suffer in order to tithe a full 10%!

I would advise that prayer is the key to your issue. Pray to God about it, ask your wife to pray about it and then discuss what you both feel comfortable with.

Do your budget together, commit WHAT YOU CAN HONESTLY AFFORD to the Lord and keep to it. It is still an investment in the Lord's kingdom to raise children that love him! Niether should it be forgotten the cost of quarreling over money to your marriage. You and your wife are a team and although you are to be the leader in your household it will never pay off to be a tyrant.

God is interested in relationships, not money - he doesnt really need it or want it, what he wants is Peace, Love and Joy in the home which is directed at him. Pray to him, Glorify him and ask him to impress upon you what he wants you to tithe. There is no set amount IMO, he did not frown apon the poor lady who could only give a coin, and he will not frown upon you for your best efforts! Mark 12:42 is a good indication of this in my opinion

God Bless;)

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 03:13 PM
But if its not 10% is it still a tithe? My understanding is in the OT Tithe was 10% of the First fruits of the Increase. Which raises a question. What if we don't have Increase? What if as happened to me two years in a row my salary was cut significantly. It was a decrease not an increase so is a tithe still required then?

superwoman8977
Oct 21st 2008, 03:15 PM
Church is not a commodity to be bought and sold. Some have and some do not. How do you know if they give or not?!?!? Are the widows supposed to tithe? How about the orphans?

I am divorced, work outside the home and tithe my income and even when married tithed MY income (not my husbands, that was all on him). Are you insinutating that widows dont make any money -- I have several friends who have lost husbands in combat that make more now that their husbands have died than when they were alive. And the reason I know is because until I moved 4 hrs from my hometown I did the books for the church and was on the finance committee in the church. Thats another reason I am totally into pledging and basing the church budgets on pledges. Because of this our church back home has no debt. The bills are all paid and there is no conflict, no cause for strife or worry because we know what we have and how to use it.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 03:16 PM
Who was the book of Malachi written to? Context is King.

Do you tithe according to the rest of the OT? Of course not. But isn't that robbing God as well?

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 03:22 PM
I am divorced, work outside the home and tithe my income and even when married tithed MY income (not my husbands, that was all on him). Are you insinutating that widows dont make any money -- I have several friends who have lost husbands in combat that make more now that their husbands have died than when they were alive.

Now see... I could have sworn I read something about a separate tithe just for the widows.

Deu 14:28-29 "At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.

That's right, widows are to receive a tithe, not give it.



And the reason I know is because until I moved 4 hrs from my hometown I did the books for the church and was on the finance committee in the church. Thats another reason I am totally into pledging and basing the church budgets on pledges. Because of this our church back home has no debt. The bills are all paid and there is no conflict, no cause for strife or worry because we know what we have and how to use it.

My church has no debt, all the bills are paid and all without conflict.

cdo
Oct 21st 2008, 03:23 PM
You want me to go there okay I will go there. The reason I tithe is because of Malachi chapter 3 especially the words about robbing God. Those words hit me like a knife, why would I want to rob God? My pastor put it to us this way, God is the blessor, He wants to bless us and in turn we are to be blessings to others. My scripture is Malachi 3, it doesnt matter whether its in the NT its in the Word of God and I want to be like Him which means I follow the word. I think its very sad that you dont urge your members to tithe because to me tithe is as much about having a relationship with the Lord as prayer and time in the word. I know as a single mom when I dont tithe I struggle and when I do my tithe the Lord blesses me over and over and then in turn I can be a blessing to others. One of my favorite people the way they tithe is Rick Warren. He lives on 10% and tithes on 90%. I would love to someday be able to tithe more than my 10% so that is my goal. I am also teaching my children that they need to tithe their allowance as well as money they get from Grandma...we have a saying at our home....10% and more if we can give it, goes to God. God has blessed me and my kids over and above what we ever thought.
Superwoman8977,
Well spoken and so true.God blesses our tithing and the 10% we don't miss.:ppGlory to God and His Promises :ppAnd the testimonies from giving To our Lord are sooooo many and a witnessing tool For God.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 03:27 PM
Deu 14:22-26 "You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Do you do this part of tithing as well? Notice a pattern?

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 03:38 PM
My scripture is Malachi 3, it doesnt matter whether its in the NT its in the Word of God and I want to be like Him which means I follow the word.

That sounds really good and all, but I doubt you do that. Let's try another scripture...

Lev 24:16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.

Stoned any blasphemers lately???:o

How do you pick and choose which ones to do to be more like Him?

RevivedGirl0216
Oct 21st 2008, 03:44 PM
my wife and i have come to a wall in our opinion of priorities. i thought i would post here and hopefully gain some wisdom on the matter.

i am of the school of thought that faith is obeying God no matter how i feel because he promises a good result...

that being said here is our predicament.

we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now. we just had a baby 5 months ago and we desperately want my wife to stay home with our child. problem being is that debt payment owed to creditors ( mortgage, school loans etc) prevents us from being able to have my wife stop working. my wife is feeling as though she is not fulfilling her role as a mother since she is at work all day and is crushed over the situation. she states that if we were to stop tithing and pay off our debt and buy a cheaper house...she could stay home with our kids. im all for the getting a cheaper house and paying off debt, thats all great, im not attatched to any of our possessions. the part that i am wondering if i should take a stand on...being the spiritual leader of our household is, the discontinuation of our tithe. my wife says she bitter over the tithe because she says it prevents us from paying of debt quicker & i know God desires a cheerful giver, but what if only one of you is cheerful about it? i on the other hand cant wait to see my paycheck so i can find out how much my tithe will be. i feel as though we are robbing God (MAL 3:10) if we all together stop tithing. i feel like not tithing is relying on our own ways and not having faith that if we are faithful to Him in our finances, He will provide a way. i have searched all over for a solid biblical answer to our problem, but have only found extremes (tithing is OT and not for us, or tithing is required). i want to please my wife, but at the same time, God's priorities are one notch above that of my wifes.

bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd

Can say for sure, you're not in debt because you tithe...and if you do it with a cheerful heart and allow the Holy Spirit to guide your spending...He will multiply it back to you. Remember, God never takes away from what you need, He's your provider, your helper and if He's your head of your household you will lack nothing. Guaranteed. If you're doing what He's asked you to do...remember, it'll all be multiplied...Again...the Lord doesn't take from you...He asks you for His reasons and takes care of all your needs...Be blessed and I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you as what you need to do...and say....He has also told me not to say taht i'm broke..because I am His child...broken i am not...and if I am the daughter of the King HImself...who has it all, i can't say the contrary.

kkeller
Oct 21st 2008, 04:42 PM
all good advice to your delimma with tithing, but you need to concern yourself with who to ask and follow rather than what is said here on this forum...Pray to God, both you and your Wife pray...God is good and He will show you what you should do.

superwoman8977
Oct 21st 2008, 05:13 PM
You will never get me to say that you dont need to tithe. Since being a church bookkeeper and getting to see how the financial part of the church works first hand you will never get me to say that it isnt ok not to tithe. The Word of God is the Word of God its that simple. I am so blessed to have worked in the financial part of the church it taught me so much about where God wants us to be with our relationship with Him and how important giving needs to be a part of it. Every Friday when I get paid that check for my tithe is the first thing I deduct from my paycheck and yes I file taxes on my tithe so as to tithe my tax return as well. I really think thats why I bounced back so well financially after the divorce because I had my spending limited to only within my means and to pledge to have all debt paid off by the end of the 1st year which 6 months later I have paid off about 60% of it. When you have Christ at the helm of your life and you Seek Him First and formost the rest just falls into place and that includes relationships and financial and everything.

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 05:15 PM
Interesting. How much debt did you pay off in that time then? I'm just curious. I know I don't have a large debt compared to some, but my income is not as high as others either. In fact, I actually probably make less than others in my field in other states.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 05:57 PM
The Word of God is the Word of God its that simple.

Then why do you not answer my scriptural points with scripture as opposed to your time in the church finance department?

superwoman8977
Oct 21st 2008, 06:37 PM
Then why do you not answer my scriptural points with scripture as opposed to your time in the church finance department?

I did answer it with Malachi thats what I call scriptural backing. Thank you.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 06:58 PM
How do you select which scriptures to follow in the OT???

superwoman8977
Oct 21st 2008, 07:36 PM
How do you select which scriptures to follow in the OT???

What scriptures speak to me like Isaiah there are a few and especially in the 3rd chapter of Malachi.

cdo
Oct 21st 2008, 08:30 PM
Urban Missionary.....
Can you give scriptural backing on ::Not tithing/giving to the Lord
In the Old Testament as well as the New Testament ?

BroRog
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:44 AM
Tithing is not for today.

Firefighter
Oct 22nd 2008, 11:19 AM
Who said anything about not giving to the Lord?????:o

Under the NT, it is ALL His, not just 10%. Every dime should glorify Him, and should He ask you for it, you should give it all back to him. The NT tells us to give as we have purposed in our hearts. We are under no obligation to give as God loves a cheerful giver. If you feel obligated to give, keep it. God doesn't want your money if you feel you have to. I am not against tithing as long as you realize that it is not an obligation and that is what you want to do cheerfully.

I was unaware that we were allowed to pick and choose which scriptures we want to obey. Either we are under the law or we are not, we cannot pick and choose.

gpmosely
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:04 PM
Hi I'm new!
Well I saw this and for the LONGEST TIME I've struggled with something exactly like this, but I found my answer. I hope I can pass this on to you so that you may make your own decision.

I feel that you first and foremost have to have the money to pay your bills so that you can take care of your family. God gave you the family, he expects you to take care of them! That means, paying the bills for your house, food, medicine etc.

BUT what about the question of tithing? After you take care of all of this, and you wind up with 0% what is your tithing ability? 0!

BUT that is ok because in Leviticus and Deuteronomy both say that you need to tite 10% yet... if we go further to Hosea 6:6 God is basically telling us that he does NOT want the burnt offerings the burnt sacrifices but our LOVE. That is the most important thing to him.

This is quoting from the KJV "For I desired Mercy and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more then burnt offerings." (Hosea 6:6)

So take care of you and your family first, continue to love the Lord and understand there are other ways to tithe. How? By setting time aside to spend time with Father. To learn in his word, to help an elderly neighbor cut their grass or something.

But remember, above all God wants YOUR LOVE!

cdo
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:32 PM
:)Well said :gpmosely,
Just adding a thought...
We should also be good stewards with the 'things as money'that he supplies for us and everything else He gives so graciously to us.Even a good steward over our debts that sometimes become a stumbling block.
Glad your here!!!
~Darlene~

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:47 PM
gpmosely,

This is basically how I understand it. While my income has decreased the Lord has still blessed me in other ways, so what we do is we pay our bills, and if there is excess (and there usually is a small bit) off of that we give. I long for the day I'm free of unnecessary debt and can give far more, but until then we devote our time to raising our son right, spending time with God, and helping the local Church.

cdo
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:13 PM
Giving:
It's not what we give in just monetary.....
It's anything we do to give Glory to God in all that we do
in praise,worship,descipling,in Church Ministry and many more.

billy-brown 2
Jan 16th 2009, 09:07 PM
Hi all,

When will someone take the test given by the Urban Missionary in post #32.

Ok, I will take this test; I hope I pass (just let me know . . .).
:pp


Feel free to disagree, but please do so scripturally.


Where is a command to tithe in the NT?

There is no such command.

Do you tithe according to the command in the OT?

Not really; actually no one can (or does).

Where was tithing ever money?

Never, because the tithe was eaten always by someone under the Law (I don't think money can not be eaten . . . ).

Who was the tithe for?

The Levitical tribe (i. e., for the Levites; then the Levites they gave the 10th of the tithe to the priests). Sometimes it was for all Israel at the Feasts (i. e., the Festival tithe)--and for strangers, widows, and orphans, and Levites (i. e., the poor tithe). That's all I can think of . . .

Who was Malachi written to?

The Israel of the post-Babylonian exile--which would be the people of Judah; but especially the priests of the nation of Judah (from the Levitical tribe).

How does what was going on in Neh Chapter 8 coincide with Malachi?

The books of Malachi, Ezra, and Nehemiah are contemporary with each other (the post-exile books; i. e. after the Babylonian captivity). (this is all I know here . . .)

Is there any biblical record of anyone other than a Jew, still under the law, ever giving tithes?

Well, this is not possible--because the commands of the Law were to be obeyed by the Jews. But technically, the Jews were only one of the 12 tribes of Israel, so the technical answer to this might be yes (I think . . .).

Since you take God at His word, these questions should be really easy for you.

I would like a grade . . . I think I should get an 88% . . .=)

billy-brown 2

:pp

RZ06
Jan 16th 2009, 10:03 PM
I just can't comprehend how Christians would think it's best for this baby to be in daycare just so this family can tithe 10%? How can you think the Lord would want that?

I look at all the scripture and see the big picture and just do not feel the Lord would want this.

I CAN see them sacrificing, tithing 10% and not having much at all left over, while the wife stays at home w/ the baby...but I cannot agree with the baby in the care of someone else while the wife grudgingly works to provide the extra income to the Lord.

Pilgrimtozion
Jan 16th 2009, 10:12 PM
Moving this to Bible Chat, where it is more suitable.

chad
Jan 17th 2009, 01:03 AM
Does anyone know if tithing was law under the Old Testament.

Ie. If you did not tithe in the old testament, you were breaking the law of Moses?

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 01:24 AM
my wife and i have come to a wall in our opinion of priorities. i thought i would post here and hopefully gain some wisdom on the matter.

i am of the school of thought that faith is obeying God no matter how i feel because he promises a good result...

that being said here is our predicament.

we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now. we just had a baby 5 months ago and we desperately want my wife to stay home with our child. problem being is that debt payment owed to creditors ( mortgage, school loans etc) prevents us from being able to have my wife stop working. my wife is feeling as though she is not fulfilling her role as a mother since she is at work all day and is crushed over the situation. she states that if we were to stop tithing and pay off our debt and buy a cheaper house...she could stay home with our kids. im all for the getting a cheaper house and paying off debt, thats all great, im not attatched to any of our possessions. the part that i am wondering if i should take a stand on...being the spiritual leader of our household is, the discontinuation of our tithe. my wife says she bitter over the tithe because she says it prevents us from paying of debt quicker & i know God desires a cheerful giver, but what if only one of you is cheerful about it? i on the other hand cant wait to see my paycheck so i can find out how much my tithe will be. i feel as though we are robbing God (MAL 3:10) if we all together stop tithing. i feel like not tithing is relying on our own ways and not having faith that if we are faithful to Him in our finances, He will provide a way. i have searched all over for a solid biblical answer to our problem, but have only found extremes (tithing is OT and not for us, or tithing is required). i want to please my wife, but at the same time, God's priorities are one notch above that of my wifes.

bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd

we are no longer obligated to be constrained to the 10% tithe is my understanding. We are commanded to give cheerfully, however there is no religious percentage that we MUST adhere to. We should give at least 10% but actually we should give more if we can. Our giving is supposed to be from the heart. Sacrificial and cheerful. It must be a legitamate sacrifice of love and must be done cheerfully. If you cant give cheerfully, for example you are going into a massive amount of debt, i dont think God is going to get angry if you tithe less for a time. Its not like He doesnt know that you are struggling. However you must pray with this before God and remember the male is the head. But God knows what you are able to give that would be both sacrificial and cheerful.

If you have recieved some specific revelation from God where He has unmistakably told you to tithe 10% anyway thats one thing, but if you are just looking at the old testament requirement of 10% i would advise you to go before God and figure out what you can do that would be wise. Remember the Bible also says to pay our taxes and that we should not owe people money. So you must seek God for wisdom in your specific situation.

The 10% was a requirement but now it is a guide. We dont have to just give 10% we can give 40% or whatever its a matter of giving cheerfully. The heart not the percentage. All money belongs to God but its not like He needs our money. We tithe to show that we dont put our faith in our money but in Him

Also, just because you tithe doesnt mean God is going to always make things go your way financially. It i possible to tithe perfectly and still be under great financial pressure all your life if your heart is not really trusting God alone.

I pray the best for your family and that God will show His grace and favor in your life

billy-brown 2
Jan 17th 2009, 01:39 AM
Does anyone know if tithing was law under the Old Testament.

Ie. If you did not tithe in the old testament, you were breaking the law of Moses?

When tithing became part of the Law, it was to be observed strictly in accordance to covenant; the consequences for breaking the Law of Moses was death (see the bold matter in the scripture reference):


Heb. 10:26-31
For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God’s enemies. Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God, and profanes the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said, “ Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


And this seems to be in agreement with the following (from the Law of Moses):

Leviticus 27:30-34
“‘Any tithe of the land, from the grain of the land or from the fruit of the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. If a man redeems part of his tithe, however, he must add one fifth to it. All the tithe of herd or flock, everything which passes under the rod, the tenth one will be holy to the Lord. The owner must not examine the animals to distinguish between good and bad, and he must not exchange it. If, however, he does exchange it, both the original animal and its substitute will be holy. It must not be redeemed.’”
These are the commandments which the Lord at Mount Sinai commanded Moses to tell the Israelites.


I hope this helps . . .

In His name,

billy-brown 2
:pray:

reformedct
Jan 17th 2009, 02:08 AM
also, here is a VERY encouraging video for all who are troubled by the seemingly irreversible economic downturn, or for any who are struggling with finances! Very uplifting


http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1588_john_piper_on_the_economic_downturn/

livingwaters
Jan 17th 2009, 02:48 AM
Philippians 4:18
I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable and pleasing to God.

Galatians 6:7
Don't be misled---you cannot mock the justice of God. You will always harvest what you plant.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete (give) withal it shall be measured to you again.

I mean what is 10%, when God sent JESUS to die for US!!!! We can never repay God, I know this, but I want to give back as much as I can out of appreciation and thanks. Just know, that God had a plan when HE said to tithe....it was to keep our hearts pure and for HIM to show us what true blessings are all about!!!! Amen...I just want to let you know that tithing is a blessing in itself...I am a witness to it!!!

Remember, God blesses us through others!!! Whether it be by a monetary gift, a raise, an abundance of favor, or whatever it might be.

God doesn't need our money!! But in order to send missionaries, have a house of God to meet and worship in, help the needy, and all other things that our churches support, tithing is expected of us from God!!! HE said to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Most churches obey and support others who do go where we can't go. Also, our church has to pay bills, as well. If it's for Jesus and the Gospel and it reflects our thanksgiving for what Christ does for us everyday, I'd think we'd be utterly ecstatic to pay 10% of what is HIS anyways. See we sometimes think that our "money and stuff" is really ours, WRONG!!! That is not what the Bible says. HE gives us health, wisdom, inventions, ideas, and money. Remember, HE said your treasures are to be stored up in Heaven. All I know is that when our hearts become full of thanksgiving and cheerfulness to give to the Lord, HE will and does open up the heavens to pour down blessings on us. Just on a challenge: anyone who has a job, take 10% off the top for at least a month or two and see if HE doesn't put HIS hands on your finances, your health or whatever you might be praying about. Just remember, the motives of the heart are KEY!!!

chad
Jan 17th 2009, 03:26 AM
Yes, thanks Billy-brown 2,

I understand. We are under New Coveanant and a New Priesthood in the order of Melchezidich, not the old Mosaic law and priesthood. We have a new High Priest (Jesus) , and no longer need the Mosaic priestly order to offer sacrifices for atonement of sin. :)



When tithing became part of the Law, it was to be observed strictly in accordance to covenant; the consequences for breaking the Law of Moses was death (see the bold matter in the scripture reference):


I hope this helps . . .

In His name,

billy-brown 2
:pray:

Jemand
Jan 17th 2009, 05:27 AM
my wife and i have come to a wall in our opinion of priorities. i thought i would post here and hopefully gain some wisdom on the matter.

i am of the school of thought that faith is obeying God no matter how i feel because he promises a good result...

that being said here is our predicament.

we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now. we just had a baby 5 months ago and we desperately want my wife to stay home with our child. problem being is that debt payment owed to creditors ( mortgage, school loans etc) prevents us from being able to have my wife stop working. my wife is feeling as though she is not fulfilling her role as a mother since she is at work all day and is crushed over the situation. she states that if we were to stop tithing and pay off our debt and buy a cheaper house...she could stay home with our kids. im all for the getting a cheaper house and paying off debt, thats all great, im not attatched to any of our possessions. the part that i am wondering if i should take a stand on...being the spiritual leader of our household is, the discontinuation of our tithe. my wife says she bitter over the tithe because she says it prevents us from paying of debt quicker & i know God desires a cheerful giver, but what if only one of you is cheerful about it? i on the other hand cant wait to see my paycheck so i can find out how much my tithe will be. i feel as though we are robbing God (MAL 3:10) if we all together stop tithing. i feel like not tithing is relying on our own ways and not having faith that if we are faithful to Him in our finances, He will provide a way. i have searched all over for a solid biblical answer to our problem, but have only found extremes (tithing is OT and not for us, or tithing is required). i want to please my wife, but at the same time, God's priorities are one notch above that of my wifes.

bottom line....do i take a stand and say "we tithe out of faith and God will help us get rid of our debt", or do i compromise with my wife.

a humble thanks,
Todd

Being the spiritual leader of a household gives the man the responsibility to study the Bible and to live in accord with its teachings. There are four different tithes that the Israelites were required to pay, but they were not required to pay all four of them every year. Each of the four tithes was for a specific purpose and each tithe was to be used exclusively for that purpose.

One of the fundamental teachings in the New Testament is that the Old Testament Law was not given to the Gentiles and the Gentiles are under no obligation to obey it. Many first century Jewish Christians had a difficult time accepting this New Testament teaching and they very strongly argued that at the very least the Gentiles must circumcise their male children. The apostle Paul vigorously taught against that belief and expressly taught that Christians are not under the Old Testament Law. He taught that Christians need to give to help those in need of assistance and to financially support the clergy, but he never so much as hinted that any Christian should pay a tithe of his income (some people (especially Roman Catholics), however, believe that they find an allusion to tithing in 1 Cor. 9:13). Indeed, nowhere in the New Testament is there even so much as a mention of a Christian paying a tithe of anything.

The Roman Church, however, as it began to fall deeper and deeper into spiritual depravity, began to demand that all Catholics pay a tithe. In 585 the Synod of Mâçon embedded the practice in canon law, and the council of Trent (Dec. 13, 1545 – Dec. 4, 1563) provided for the excommunication of any Catholic who refused to pay his tithe to the Church.

Many Protestant churches have taught their congregations that they are to pay a tithe of their income, but this teaching is not substantiated in the Bible.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you and minister to all of your needs.

chad
Jan 17th 2009, 05:43 AM
It makes you wonder, Did the Catholic Church in 585 introduce false and Heretical teachings regarding tithing?




Being the spiritual leader of a household gives the man the responsibility to study the Bible and to live in accord with its teachings. There are four different tithes that the Israelites were required to pay, but they were not required to pay all four of them every year. Each of the four tithes was for a specific purpose and each tithe was to be used exclusively for that purpose.

One of the fundamental teachings in the New Testament is that the Old Testament Law was not given to the Gentiles and the Gentiles are under no obligation to obey it. Many first century Jewish Christians had a difficult time accepting this New Testament teaching and they very strongly argued that at the very least the Gentiles must circumcise their male children. The apostle Paul vigorously taught against that belief and expressly taught that Christians are not under the Old Testament Law. He taught that Christians need to give to help those in need of assistance and to financially support the clergy, but he never so much as hinted that any Christian should pay a tithe of his income (some people (especially Roman Catholics), however, believe that they find an allusion to tithing in 1 Cor. 9:13). Indeed, nowhere in the New Testament is there even so much as a mention of a Christian paying a tithe of anything.

The Roman Church, however, as it began to fall deeper and deeper into spiritual depravity, began to demand that all Catholics pay a tithe. In 585 the Synod of Mâçon embedded the practice in canon law, and the council of Trent (Dec. 13, 1545 – Dec. 4, 1563) provided for the excommunication of any Catholic who refused to pay his tithe to the Church.

Many Protestant churches have taught their congregations that they are to pay a tithe of their income, but this teaching is not substantiated in the Bible.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you and minister to all of your needs.

billy-brown 2
Jan 17th 2009, 05:53 AM
Philippians 4:18
I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable and pleasing to God.

Galatians 6:7
Don't be misled---you cannot mock the justice of God. You will always harvest what you plant.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete (give) withal it shall be measured to you again.

I mean what is 10%, when God sent JESUS to die for US!!!! We can never repay God, I know this, but I want to give back as much as I can out of appreciation and thanks. Just know, that God had a plan when HE said to tithe....it was to keep our hearts pure and for HIM to show us what true blessings are all about!!!! Amen...I just want to let you know that tithing is a blessing in itself...I am a witness to it!!!

Remember, God blesses us through others!!! Whether it be by a monetary gift, a raise, an abundance of favor, or whatever it might be.

God doesn't need our money!! But in order to send missionaries, have a house of God to meet and worship in, help the needy, and all other things that our churches support, tithing is expected of us from God!!! HE said to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Most churches obey and support others who do go where we can't go. Also, our church has to pay bills, as well. If it's for Jesus and the Gospel and it reflects our thanksgiving for what Christ does for us everyday, I'd think we'd be utterly ecstatic to pay 10% of what is HIS anyways. See we sometimes think that our "money and stuff" is really ours, WRONG!!! That is not what the Bible says. HE gives us health, wisdom, inventions, ideas, and money. Remember, HE said your treasures are to be stored up in Heaven. All I know is that when our hearts become full of thanksgiving and cheerfulness to give to the Lord, HE will and does open up the heavens to pour down blessings on us. Just on a challenge: anyone who has a job, take 10% off the top for at least a month or two and see if HE doesn't put HIS hands on your finances, your health or whatever you might be praying about. Just remember, the motives of the heart are KEY!!!

Living waters,

Thanks for the wonderful post ;). . . but are you aware that none of your scripture references deal at all with biblical tithing?

Think this through with me . . .

A) Is not the context of Philippians 4:18 dealing with Paul's gratitude for ministry assistance by the Phillipian Church (while in house arrest jail in Rome [see Acts 28])?

According to the Law of Moses, only the Levite tribe was to receive the "Levitical" tithe. Was not Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin? Was this context a "feast of the Jews" context--where all the Hebrew people would eat the tithe to celebrate YHWH in Jerusalem per the Law's command? Were the Philippians Jews--and under the Law of Moses? Was Paul under the Law of Moses? Is the Gospel of Christ the same as the Law of Moses?

Let's look at Philippians 3:1-11 below:

Finally, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! To write this again is no trouble to me, and it is a safeguard for you.
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! For we are the circumcision, the ones who worship by the Spirit of God, exult in Christ Jesus, and do not rely on human credentials – though mine too are significant. If someone thinks he has good reasons to put confidence in human credentials, I have more: I was circumcised on the eighth day, from the people of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews. I lived according to the law as a Pharisee. In my zeal for God I persecuted the church. According to the righteousness stipulated in the law I was blameless. But these assets I have come to regard as liabilities because of Christ. More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things – indeed, I regard them as dung! – that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ’s faithfulness – a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ’s faithfulness. My aim is to know him, to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings, and to be like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Something to think about . . .

B) Is not the context of Galatians 6:7 concerning ministry help to those who teach others about the things of the Lord? Of course, this was written by Paul the Apostle during the time of the 1st century. We know that Paul was not a Levite, and neither was James, Peter, Luke, Jude, or John (the other Apostles under the Holy Spirit who wrote the New Testament). In fact, were any of the 1st century Christians Levites? (I don't know--I'm just asking.) Or were they under the Law of Moses?

Let's look at Gal. 6:6-10 below:

Now the one who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with the one who teaches. Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows, because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. So we must not grow weary in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who belong to the family of faith.

Now this was written to the churches of Galatia; were any of these people under the Law of Moses? Also, we are to reap . . . in due time. When is due time?

Something to think about . . .

c) Is not the context of Luke 6:38 the surrounding verses (Luke 6:37-45) as well as the parallel passage in Matthew 7:1-7? Does Jesus discuss "tithing" at all in these passages? Is not not the context the "giving" of "judgment, forgiveness, and condemnation?"

Let's look at these passages . . . every word is recorded from a translation which indicates that JESUS IS SPEAKING (Jesus spoke Aramaic, of course):

Matthew 7:1-7“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces.

Luke 6:37-45
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be poured into your lap. For the measure you use will be the measure you receive.”
He also told them a parable: “Someone who is blind cannot lead another who is blind, can he? Won’t they both fall into a pit? A disciple is not greater than his teacher, but everyone when fully trained will be like his teacher. Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while you yourself don’t see the beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
“For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from brambles. The good person out of the good treasury of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasury produces evil, for his mouth speaks from what fills his heart.

Something to think about . . .


+++++++++++++++++++
Now, your comments above reveal exactly what I used to believe: that "tithing" and "sowing and reaping" are connected in the scriptures. I no longer believe this at all.

Indeed, I am learning that tithing in the Bible was done either voluntarily (by Abraham and Jacob) or by strict obedience to the Law of Moses--and in accordance with "Sabbath" Covenant principles. Under the Law, the penalty for disobedience was very severe.

All of the "Law" facilities, personnel, and covenant rules MUST be in place together for biblical tithing to occur.

So, when we hear someone say "you should 'tithe' 10% of your money", it is clear that they have no SCRIPTURAL truth that they can refer to in support of it under the New Covenant.

Now all of this is NOT to say that it is wrong for anyone to give 10% of their money to a ministry IF THEY WANT TO. It can be done--or not be done as person's discretion.

The problem that arises here, however, is this: many ministries will indicate in their "Tenets of Faith" that "you will be cursed" if you DON"T give 10% of your money to them (in obedience to Mal. 3).

So, to "escape the curse of the Law", we now have two things that must be done; believe the Gospel of the the Lord Jesus Christ in the New Birth AND "give a 10th of your money to a ministry" . . .

DOES THIS HAVE SUPPORT BY THE HOLY SCRIPTURES? IS THIS THE GOSPEL THAT PAUL THE APOSTLE PREACHED? What did Paul write in Gal. 1:6-10?

Gal. 1:6-10
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel--not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell! Am I now trying to gain the approval of people, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ!

I am sure that others at this forum can answer these questions better than I . . .

Love,

billy-brown 2

:pray:

RZ06
Jan 17th 2009, 11:18 PM
Being the spiritual leader of a household gives the man the responsibility to study the Bible and to live in accord with its teachings. There are four different tithes that the Israelites were required to pay, but they were not required to pay all four of them every year. Each of the four tithes was for a specific purpose and each tithe was to be used exclusively for that purpose.

One of the fundamental teachings in the New Testament is that the Old Testament Law was not given to the Gentiles and the Gentiles are under no obligation to obey it. Many first century Jewish Christians had a difficult time accepting this New Testament teaching and they very strongly argued that at the very least the Gentiles must circumcise their male children. The apostle Paul vigorously taught against that belief and expressly taught that Christians are not under the Old Testament Law. He taught that Christians need to give to help those in need of assistance and to financially support the clergy, but he never so much as hinted that any Christian should pay a tithe of his income (some people (especially Roman Catholics), however, believe that they find an allusion to tithing in 1 Cor. 9:13). Indeed, nowhere in the New Testament is there even so much as a mention of a Christian paying a tithe of anything.

The Roman Church, however, as it began to fall deeper and deeper into spiritual depravity, began to demand that all Catholics pay a tithe. In 585 the Synod of Mâçon embedded the practice in canon law, and the council of Trent (Dec. 13, 1545 – Dec. 4, 1563) provided for the excommunication of any Catholic who refused to pay his tithe to the Church.

Many Protestant churches have taught their congregations that they are to pay a tithe of their income, but this teaching is not substantiated in the Bible.

Thank you for reading my post. May God bless you and minister to all of your needs.


It makes you wonder, Did the Catholic Church in 585 introduce false and Heretical teachings regarding tithing?

That's what I've read...

crystalbrite
Jan 17th 2009, 11:40 PM
I honestly don't think God would want a mother to be away from her child so He can have your money. Tithing is old Mosaic law. Christians are not obligated to mosaic law except by choice. If you choose to live under Mosaic law, you must keep ALL of the law, not just part of it. Anything less than ALL, is not acceptable to God. He is not a 99% kind of God, He is a 100% kind of God. That is the Truth about Him. However, if you have chosen Jesus as you Savior, you are released from the law and saved by His grace.

crystalbrite
Jan 17th 2009, 11:54 PM
Yes, I know how churches are ran. I am a pastor. I have never taken a tithe in my entire ministry. God said he would provide for my every need and He always has, without a tithe. I feed my entire church every Sunday. I run two buses, all without a tithe. I rely on the Holy Spirit to move on the hearts of those that God sends my way, nothing more. It can be done, the question is, do we (pastors) have enough faith to rely on God and not put our congregations under the bondage of the law?

Please see my previous post and respond to the questions.

Thank you! You are as right as rain! The Holy Spirit has always put it on my heart to support local churches and community action. There is no need to twist the arm of those who can't afford it. My mother was faithfully tithing to KCM. She is a poor elderly woman. I finally got it through to her that it is old law. She wrote them a nice letter explaining that she couldn't do it anymore because she wasn't able to get her bills paid without asking her kids for the money. They wrote her back a nice letter and from then on has been sending her free gifts every month! :)

billy-brown 2
Jan 20th 2009, 12:49 AM
Thank you! You are as right as rain! The Holy Spirit has always put it on my heart to support local churches and community action. There is no need to twist the arm of those who can't afford it. My mother was faithfully tithing to KCM. She is a poor elderly woman. I finally got it through to her that it is old law. She wrote them a nice letter explaining that she couldn't do it anymore because she wasn't able to get her bills paid without asking her kids for the money. They wrote her back a nice letter and from then on has been sending her free gifts every month! :)

Hi all, :pp

All of the posts in this thread are really wonderfully instructive--revealing much truth and correction in an edification context.

So, might I suggest we take a slightly different "twist" to the issues of the OP?

Consider the following scenario:

Let's say you were counseling a "brand new Christian"--maybe you even "introduced this person to Christ" and so on.

One would assume this "new Christian" has never heard of the details of issues that has been brought up concerning "tithing" in this thread at any time.

Of course, we would all want this "new" Christian to live for Christ in a powerful manner.

So, what steps would we all take to instruct this "new Christian" properly concerning "tithing" or "giving" or similar Christian issues? This is a discipleship question, actually.

Thoughts?

crystalbrite
Jan 22nd 2009, 07:47 AM
Hi all, :pp

All of the posts in this thread are really wonderfully instructive--revealing much truth and correction in an edification context.

So, might I suggest we take a slightly different "twist" to the issues of the OP?

Consider the following scenario:

Let's say you were counseling a "brand new Christian"--maybe you even "introduced this person to Christ" and so on.

One would assume this "new Christian" has never heard of the details of issues that has been brought up concerning "tithing" in this thread at any time.

Of course, we would all want this "new" Christian to live for Christ in a powerful manner.

So, what steps would we all take to instruct this "new Christian" properly concerning "tithing" or "giving" or similar Christian issues? This is a discipleship question, actually.

Thoughts?

I'm not good enough to instruct anyone just yet. Truth is, even when I try to witness I never seem to get my point across the way I intended. :blush:

Marc B
Jan 23rd 2009, 02:09 AM
All I can say is wow. Some really good posts on tithing here. I'm still on the fence regarding tithing but I am leaning towards the argument that strict tithing according to the OT is no longer valid and giving what you can is given back to you in the same measure according to the NT. I'm going to do a lot more research before I decide what to do. Thanks to everyone here for some good insight and food for thought.

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 03:28 AM
All I can say is wow. Some really good posts on tithing here. I'm still on the fence regarding tithing but I am leaning towards the argument that strict tithing according to the OT is no longer valid and giving what you can is given back to you in the same measure according to the NT. I'm going to do a lot more research before I decide what to do. Thanks to everyone here for some good insight and food for thought.
Have you read any material by Russell Kelly: Should The Church Teach Tithing? My husband did a 2 week online teaching on tithing using Russell Kelly's material....very interesting insights into the tithing issue. Here is the link:

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

sheina maidle
Jan 24th 2009, 04:40 AM
Feel free to disagree, but please do so scripturally.


Where is a command to tithe in the NT?
No, there is no command to tithe in the NT. There were only two instances where Jesus spoke of tithing, and He was commending the Pharisees for tithing their herbs and spices:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Matthew 23:23)

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Luke 11:42)


Do you tithe according to the command in the OT?

No...there is no more Levitical priesthood. Also, we are not under the OT law.
Where was tithing ever money?No

Who was the tithe for?
The Levites.

Who was Malachi written to?
The Levites

How does what was going on in Neh Chapter 8 coincide with Malachi?
The people were not giving the Levites their portions (tithes and offerings) and they were being rebuked...as was the case in Malachi 3. But I couldn't find the answer in chapter 8 of Nehemiah, I found it in chapter 13:10-12 of Nehemiah.

Is there any biblical record of anyone other than a Jew, still under the law, ever giving tithes?
Not that I know of. I find no instance of Jesus tithing...nor Peter, nor Paul, nor any of the other disciples/apostles. Grace giving is taught in the NT, not OT tithing.

Since you take God at His word, these questions should be really easy for you.
Great questions!

billy-brown 2
Jan 24th 2009, 10:52 PM
Have you read any material by Russell Kelly: Should The Church Teach Tithing? My husband did a 2 week online teaching on tithing using Russell Kelly's material....very interesting insights into the tithing issue. Here is the link:

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/


Hi Sheina,

I have read Russell Kelly's material--it is very insightful indeed.

I think it is his "dissertation" from when he was in school.

As you have no doubt experienced, multitudes of Christians have lots of questions about the "tithing" issue--and I believe that these questions can be answered in our lives by a consideration of the proper answer to the following question:

What is the Gospel?

(I think there is a thread at this sight that is dealing with that right now . . .)

It seems to me that if the saints can get a proper foundation of truth concerning the Gospel, misconceptions concerning "tithing" will be corrected at the same time.

The Apostle Paul wrote it best in I Cor. 3: 10-11:

3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master-builder I laid a foundation, but someone else builds on it. And each one must be careful how he builds. 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than what is being laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Grace and peace,

Billy-brown 2

:pp

matthew7and1
Jan 25th 2009, 01:59 AM
deleted because it was repeated....

matthew7and1
Jan 25th 2009, 02:00 AM
I would tithe. Praise God He has promised to meet all our needs and more. What a blessing to have momma home with the baby...especially in these days.
:hug:
I agree. But I also agree with previous posters that suggest that you maybe not tithe the 10%. I agree that it is your own spending that has put you in the prediciment, but that you can only do the best you can with your situation. If you are caught up on the 10% thing I suggest that you reduce your tithes and then resolve to tithe 11% or whatever until you feel that you have paid your debt. I honestly believe that God wants you to do what is best for your child, and if that means that you indebt yourself (in regaurds to the tithes) temporarily in the process, then I do not think that is a bad thing. If not tithing is not an option for you, keeping track of how long you do not tithe and then make it up a little at a time, for the sake of your child, can not be bad. Just my humble opinion. :hug:

sheina maidle
Jan 25th 2009, 02:09 AM
A "tithe" is a tenth....not 15% nor 5%. If it isn't 10%, it isn't a tithe. Also, Old Testament tithing was never money...it was always food....grain or meat....herds, flocks, grains and spices.

billy-brown 2
Jan 25th 2009, 05:13 AM
A "tithe" is a tenth....not 15% nor 5%. If it isn't 10%, it isn't a tithe. Also, Old Testament tithing was never money...it was always food....grain or meat....herds, flocks, grains and spices.


This is quite true . . . ^

It seems clear that biblical examples of tithing in the Tanakh were from the "spoils of war" (Abraham), or on "condition" (Jacob), or in accordance with strict Law of Moses "Sabbath" conventions (the Torah).

In obeying the Tithe Law in the Torah (the 5 books of Moses), the Hebrew people were seeking really to "stay alive" by any means necessary:

Leviticus 18:1-5

18:1 The Lord spoke to Moses:

18:2 “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘I am the Lord your God!

18:3 You must not do as they do in the land of Egypt where you have been living, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan into which I am about to bring you; you must not walk in their statutes.

18:4 You must observe my regulations and you must be sure to walk in my statutes. I am the Lord your God.

18:5 So you must keep my statutes and my regulations; anyone who does so will live by keeping them. I am the Lord.

This seems to be in agreement with this passage:

Leviticus 27: 30-34

27:30 “‘Any tithe of the land, from the grain of the land or from the fruit of the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

27:31 If a man redeems part of his tithe, however, he must add one fifth to it.

27:32 All the tithe of herd or flock, everything which passes under the rod, the tenth one will be holy to the Lord.

27:33 The owner must not examine the animals to distinguish between good and bad, and he must not exchange it. If, however, he does exchange it, both the original animal and its substitute will be holy. It must not be redeemed.’”

27:34 These are the commandments which the Lord at Mount Sinai commanded Moses to tell the Israelites.

Conspicuous by its absence from these passages is the "modern-day Christian concept" to "tithe" money so as to receive from God a "good measure, pressed down" financial return . . .

Something to pray and think about . . . :pray:

Cheers,

Billy-brown 2

;)

Gracious1
Jan 25th 2009, 02:44 PM
All I can say is wow. Some really good posts on tithing here. I'm still on the fence regarding tithing but I am leaning towards the argument that strict tithing according to the OT is no longer valid and giving what you can is given back to you in the same measure according to the NT. I'm going to do a lot more research before I decide what to do. Thanks to everyone here for some good insight and food for thought.

The tithe God commanded in the Old Testament was indeed a tithe of 10% of the crops, flocks and herds of the Israelites. That tithe was given to the Levite's because they had no land, no inheritance. The Israelite's were to give this tithe to no one else the majority of the time.

In certain years, the tithe was given to the widows, orphans, and the strangers and Levite's living on one's land. Certain years, no tithe was given as the land was to rest.

Now, given the fact that the tithe was to go to the Levite, the widow, the orphan, the stranger; how can one justify giving it to a pastor of a local Church who is not a Levite, a widow, an orphan, a stranger?

The one receiving the tithe was not to own property. How can one justify receiving what they call the tithe today if one owns his own land? Most preachers do own their own land, do they not?

chad
Jan 25th 2009, 07:20 PM
Some preachers, (esp. the ones that appear on TV) own multimillion dollar houses, not to mention alot of other stuff. I guess they could claim the are no longer under OT law and the old rules of tithing (ie. not owning property) no longer apply to them :confused




The one receiving the tithe was not to own property. How can one justify receiving what they call the tithe today if one owns his own land? Most preachers do own their own land, do they not?

superwoman8977
Jan 26th 2009, 04:13 PM
Hi all, :pp

All of the posts in this thread are really wonderfully instructive--revealing much truth and correction in an edification context.

So, might I suggest we take a slightly different "twist" to the issues of the OP?

Consider the following scenario:

Let's say you were counseling a "brand new Christian"--maybe you even "introduced this person to Christ" and so on.

One would assume this "new Christian" has never heard of the details of issues that has been brought up concerning "tithing" in this thread at any time.

Of course, we would all want this "new" Christian to live for Christ in a powerful manner.

So, what steps would we all take to instruct this "new Christian" properly concerning "tithing" or "giving" or similar Christian issues? This is a discipleship question, actually.

Thoughts?


I was taught tithing is a very important part of worship just like prayer and time in the word. Bottom line if the church is to remain open, bills paid, etc then we must tithe. Its that simple. Every fall our church back home holds a stewardship campaign for 4 weeks and then at the end of 4 weeks they ask that you prayerfully decide what you can give the church for the upcoming year. The church budget is then set to reflect that amount that is being pledged. When I ended up being the church bookkeeper I saw how vitally important this was to the life of the church to have the finances to pay the bills and have the programs. There are so many people who go into church sit in the pew, take advantage of the programs the church has to offer and then get frustrated when the church has to cut programs and things because of lack of funding.

RabbiKnife
Jan 26th 2009, 05:46 PM
What if the church didn't have a building, any expenses, or any staff?

What would you teach the new believer to do with the money then?

sheina maidle
Jan 26th 2009, 06:03 PM
I was taught tithing is a very important part of worship just like prayer and time in the word.
You were taught wrong.

Bottom line if the church is to remain open, bills paid, etc then we must tithe. Its that simple.
Tithing was never meant as a means to pay bills. Tithing was instituted to feed the Levites, who were not allowed to own any land. Bills need to be paid by the love offerings of the congregation.

Every fall our church back home holds a stewardship campaign for 4 weeks and then at the end of 4 weeks they ask that you prayerfully decide what you can give the church for the upcoming year. The church budget is then set to reflect that amount that is being pledged.
That's called faith promise. Faith promise causes a person to give "of necessity". Paul told the church in Corinth that God doesn't want the congregation to give "of necessity" but "God loveth a cheerful giver"

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. (2 Corinthians 9:7)

Faith promise doesn't take into account that there may be a household need, such as food or medical bills, down the road. And we know that anyone who doesn't provide for his house is worse than an "infidel" (1 Timothy 5:8)

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)


When I ended up being the church bookkeeper I saw how vitally important this was to the life of the church to have the finances to pay the bills and have the programs. There are so many people who go into church sit in the pew, take advantage of the programs the church has to offer and then get frustrated when the church has to cut programs and things because of lack of funding.
Church is not about programs, nor should it ever be. God's house is to be a house of prayer and worship, not a concert hall or entertainment center.

sheina maidle
Jan 26th 2009, 06:06 PM
What if the church didn't have a building, any expenses, or any staff?

What would you teach the new believer to do with the money then?
No building, start a building fund. No staff, take up an offering to hire a staff. No expenses, they come after you have the staff and building.

superwoman8977
Jan 26th 2009, 06:35 PM
You were taught wrong.

Tithing was never meant as a means to pay bills. Tithing was instituted to feed the Levites, who were not allowed to own any land. Bills need to be paid by the love offerings of the congregation.

That's called faith promise. Faith promise causes a person to give "of necessity". Paul told the church in Corinth that God doesn't want the congregation to give "of necessity" but "God loveth a cheerful giver"

Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. (2 Corinthians 9:7)

Faith promise doesn't take into account that there may be a household need, such as food or medical bills, down the road. And we know that anyone who doesn't provide for his house is worse than an "infidel" (1 Timothy 5:8)

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)


Church is not about programs, nor should it ever be. God's house is to be a house of prayer and worship, not a concert hall or entertainment center.

The Church is about programs, Sunday School, Bible Studies cost money. Heck even the piano has to be tuned, the choir robes cleaned, the salary and insurance paid for the staff. Tithes do that. Gee I wonder why churches are closing their doors because there is no money to run the church. There is no emphasis placed on tithing to your church. Even my 10 yr old is being taught 10% of his allowance needs to be tithed to church. I have lived down here since April 2007 and I still tithe to my church back home because no matter where I am in the world its my home church. Church is not a concert hall or entertainment center I am not saying that but what I am saying is that without proper budgeting and money management and tithing a church isnt going to survive. For example the church back home is starting a new Sunday School Program and eliminating one of its 3 services. Cost to do this--is almost 1500.00 for the materials for the new classes, etc. I used to attend a church where tithing wasnt stressed. That church is no longer in existance today. The church back home just finished a 900,000.00 remodel of the entire church. A mortgage was taken to build this however thanks to careful planning and pledging on a building fund by this July they will have paid the mortgage off with money to spare for further projects within the church. Churches today cannot survive especially in this recession without careful planning and budgeting.

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 07:10 PM
Tithing, in the Old Testament, was never money... it was always crops, flocks and herds as has been previously pointed out.

Did they have money in the Old Testament? Yes, they certainly did...

Silver is mentioned 264 times
Gold is mentioned 336 times
Money is mentioned 101 times

Abraham had much gold and was said to be very rich.

But the fact remains, nowhere in the Deuteronomical books is tithing of money required by God ever from His people.

Further study of the first five books of the Bible will show the reader that tithing was limited to within the boundaries of the Holy Land and not outside its borders. Nowhere in the Word of God can one find an amendment to the tithing command to include boundaries outside of the Holy Land.

Clearly, Churches are collecting money under the guise of tithe wrongfully when one looks at the Biblical tithe. Whether out of ignorance of what the tithe truly was and who was to receive it, or out of greed for money, collecting the so-called tithe of money is not Biblical.

Money is needed for certain things in the Church, but it is deceitful to tell people that money must be through tithes.

Paul spoke of grace giving, not tithing. If enough people gave out of the love of their heart for the things of God, the preacher would not have to lie to the congregation to drum up finances for bills.

Jesus, in His commending the Pharisee for tithing in Matthew 23, never mentioned money as being one of the things the Pharisee tithed. Do you think the Pharisee only had spices and herbs and not money? Why do you think money was not mentioned as being tithed? Because Jesus knew that money was never used as a tithe.

Even in Deuteronomy 14, if the tithe was too heavy it was sold for money and then once one got to where they were to give the tithe, they had to go an buy the tithe. Buy money with money? I think not. They were to eat of the tithe with the one receiving the tithe. Eat money? Again, I think not.

Careful study of the tithe showed that certain classes of people were the only ones required to tithe... farmers and herders. No one else was required to tithe a tenth of their belongings. That meant the tithe law excluded everyone who was not a farmer or herder. Not even Jesus, who kept the Law, was required to tithe because He was not a farmer, nor was He a herder.

I suggest those who have been deceived into believing money is or ever was used as a tithe to study the Word of God instead of believing the one who told them to tithe money.

There is no Scripture whatsoever that says the tithe was money, nor is there any Scripture whatsoever that says people outside of the borders of the Holy Land are to tithe.

CommanderRobey
Jan 26th 2009, 08:00 PM
we have been tithing a full 10% of our income (before taxes ie: first fruits) for about three months now.

Todd,

I would suggest reading Nehemiah 12:44. There, you will see that tithes and firstfruits are not the same.

Apparently, you have been giving a firstfruit of your money thinking you were tithing... but that is not the tithe.

Money was never used as a tithe, but money could buy tithes (Deuteronomy 14:26).

Tithing was not required of all Israel, only of farmers and herders.

Tithing was received of Israelites by the Levites (the only tribe of Israel who was authorized by God to receive the tithe). The Levite's would, in turn, give 10% of that tithe to the High Priest.

How that would compare with the Church today (if the tithe Law did extend outside the boundaries of the Holy Land) would be you (if you were not a Levite) would bring in your tithe to the Church worker (pianist, organist, usher, treasurer, etc.). The Church worker would in turn take 10% of that tithe to the pastor (assuming he is a shadow of the High Priest of the Old Testament). That means that the Church staff would receive 10% of your money and the pastor would receive only 1% of your money... if the tithe were indeed money.

By the way, careful study of the Word of God will show tithes were not the weekly collection that we see in Church today. Tithes were only once a year and some years there was no tithe to the Levites in the tabernacle at all.

Has your pastor informed you that on the third year your tithe was not to be brought to Church, but kept on your property to feed the widow, orphan, Church worker and stranger living on your property? Has he told you you do not have to tithe on the seventh year nor on the fiftieth year, the year of Jubilee?

It is funny pastors preach tithe, but in preaching of tithe, they are adding to or taking away from the Word of God as to the what, when, where, who, why, and how of the tithe.

Take care of your house first, my friend. Then, give a grace offering to the local assembly. God will bless you immensely for your obedience to His Word.

billy-brown 2
Jan 26th 2009, 11:39 PM
Hi all, :pp

Wow--we have a great discussion here, indeed.

Might our "new Christian" be confused about "tithing" if he (or she) isn't given instruction about the true answers to the two critical (and related) questions below (at least)?

1) What is the Church?

2) What is the Gospel?

Remember, we want our "new Christian" to live powerfully as he (or she) advances the Kingdom of God.

Now, it seems to me that instructing the "new Christian" properly on Questions 1) and 2) above can clear up all of the "tithing" and "giving" questions as well.

And if we cannot answer Questions 1) and 2) biblically for the "New Christian" so that they can grow and mature, well . . . ___________ (You can fill in the blank.)

The posts so far are wonderful with the "back and forth" reasonings on the "tithing" issue, with many "yes we should 'tithe'!" comments, and "no, 'tithing' is not biblical!" comments.

But, what about the "new Christian"? How do we offer them the FREEDOM that comes only from truth (John 8:31-32)?

Cheers,

Billy-brown 2
:pp

CommanderRobey
Jan 27th 2009, 12:05 AM
'What is the Church?'
and
'What is the Gospel?'

are separate issues from the topic at hand.

Perhaps you can start a couple new threads addressing these questions and we will keep this thread on the topic at hand 'Tithing.'

billy-brown 2
Jan 27th 2009, 12:31 AM
'What is the Church?'
and
'What is the Gospel?'

are separate issues from the topic at hand.

Perhaps you can start a couple new threads addressing these questions and we will keep this thread on the topic at hand 'Tithing.'


I don't in anyway wish to derail the topic of this thread in anyway . . . thanks for reminding me . . .

Actually, both questions might not be separate issues from "tithing" as we might think . .

For instance, superwoman8977 has defined the Church in her post below:

"The Church is about programs, Sunday School, Bible Studies cost money. Heck even the piano has to be tuned, the choir robes cleaned, the salary and insurance paid for the staff. Tithes do that. Gee I wonder why churches are closing their doors because there is no money to run the church. There is no emphasis placed on tithing to your church. Even my 10 yr old is being taught 10% of his allowance needs to be tithed to church. I have lived down here since April 2007 and I still tithe to my church back home because no matter where I am in the world its my home church. Church is not a concert hall or entertainment center I am not saying that but what I am saying is that without proper budgeting and money management and tithing a church isnt going to survive. For example the church back home is starting a new Sunday School Program and eliminating one of its 3 services. Cost to do this--is almost 1500.00 for the materials for the new classes, etc. I used to attend a church where tithing wasnt stressed. That church is no longer in existance today. The church back home just finished a 900,000.00 remodel of the entire church. A mortgage was taken to build this however thanks to careful planning and pledging on a building fund by this July they will have paid the mortgage off with money to spare for further projects within the church. Churches today cannot survive especially in this recession without careful planning and budgeting."

So, in the mind of this poster, this is the Church . . .

Is this the Church?

Now, there is a separate thread on the question of What is the Gospel? at this forum, so . . .

At any rate, The Apostle Paul gives us the following passage:

Galatians 5:1-7
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?

Now, this passage contains a reference to the "circumcision" Laws, and "tithing" was another element of the Law of Moses. If a person seeks to involve themselves in "tithing" according to the Law, will Christ be of value to them? Will the Gospel be of value to them?
:pray:

Lewis Mixon
Jan 28th 2009, 12:07 AM
The Tithing System

By Wylie Fulton, Forest City, N. C.





“Ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone” Matthew 23:23.



THIS SCRIPTURE is relied upon to teach tithing in the New Testament church age. However, it is clear that our Lord was here rebuking the Pharisees for their failure to keep the law of Moses, under which they lived and operated. Neither in the Book of Acts nor in any of the epistles do we have one word about tithing as a Christian injunction. And I might add, when you search the history of the church, the great confessions and books of divinity, you never find the doctrine of tithing UNTIL the late 19th and early 20th centuries. That might come as a surprise to many who have recently majored on tithing. The tithing principle which was a part of the old covenant ceremonial law has been adopted and used as a club by the modern church to force the people into a gigantic budget and money-based church program — merely another human means to “keep the pump primed” for the carnal programs of the modern Arminian church.

The words at the heading of this article are addressed by our Lord to those who were still under the old covenant. Of course, they “ought” to have paid the tithe, but their problem was that they had become self-righteous; that they rested in the outward performance of these duties, but knew nothing of judgment, mercy and faith. Where a church today is under a legal system of tithing or any other law service, you will find a proud self-righteous people who rest in the external works of their hands but know nothing of an experimental heart-work of grace and love. It is a tragic situation indeed, when the leaders of a people will make null and void the teachings of grace and run back to the old covenant.



THE QUESTION IS — Does the New Testament teach a system of tithing?

Is every Christian obligated by the Lord to place strictly ten-percent of all his earnings in the church or some form of mission work? Many teach what is termed “storehouse tithing,” that the entire tenth must be placed in the local church only, and that books be kept to substantiate this. Before we can determine whether the New Testament does in fact teach tithing, we would pose another question which is really at the foundation of these issues — namely,



Does the New Testament teach the mission system?

Early in the 19th century in Baptist ranks there was a great separation over money-based mission programs, salaried ministry and church auxiliaries. Those who stayed with the original church continued preaching election, predestination, and regeneration by God’s power alone. Those who went with the new party stressed regeneration by human means, “the gospel must be preached and they that preach must be paid,” etc. — whereas the written Word of God said they that preach must be “sent” by the Lord. The so-called “great commission” says, “Go” — not preach tithing and demand a salary. The new party or missionary Baptists instituted mission offerings, seminaries, missionary circles, and later Sunday Schools and tithing. Now does the commission require huge sums of money to send someone “into all the world”? Is the ministry on a level with other forms of human endeavor, where “the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it”? Will a bigger offering assure the salvation of more souls? If the Lord our God has chosen a people, His blessed Son has redeemed a people and promised to gather them all (John 6:37) unto Himself, then how does money enter into the picture?

How did the New Testament church fulfill its mission in the world? Did it provide stipulated salaries for every preacher who went forth at God’s call? I feel the answers to these questions are obvious to every reader who familiarizes himself with the New Testament and early church history. From Christ’s founding of the church until the late 1700s there was no mission system in any church (speaking from a Baptist point of view). Prior to the introduction of the Mission Society by Andrew Fuller and others, each God-called preacher went wherever God directed, looking to God alone for his support. Each church supported its God-called messengers as led of the Lord and assisted other churches where there was a need.

“For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not … Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” 2 Corinthians 8:12; 9:7).

Here we have New Testament giving, and that spirit of liberality was not created through a forced tithing pledge. One preacher whom I know here in the Carolinas says, “You’ll not be a deacon in my church unless you tithe!” There was no pledge in the Corinthian church and no preaching about tithing. God said, “Not of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver.” I will add, of course, that the church at Corinth was too near the apostolic pattern to have a salaried minister whose security demanded tithers in the church. It was too near the New Testament pattern to have a paid organist or a paid choir director. In fact, the Corinthian church even existed in a time when churches had no stated “program.” That church was so “strange” that it had no organizations for the young people! It existed to provide a home for the Lord’s children, a center of fellowship, all for the one purpose: “He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord” (2 Cor. 10:17). The Corinthian church had its internal strife and problems, but it was a true church, and neither the church at Corinth nor any other New Testament church was given as a “soul-saving station.” In New Testament times the people of God knew that “Salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), that it is not of man’s will or effort (Rom. 9:16). They were content to leave the eternal salvation of men in the hands of “God who showeth mercy.” Their preaching was a demonstration of the power of God to the “saved,” to the regenerate— but they knew that the same preaching was utter foolishness to the natural man (1 Cor. 1:18; 2:14). Therefore they did not put on money-raising campaigns. It’s that simple!

Then all service was done willingly “as unto the Lord,” and to even think of “charging” for such service would be a travesty. When our Lord Jesus Christ sent out the twelve, He commanded them, “Freely ye have received, freely give” (Matt. 10:8). I know of one “preacher” who went before his deacons last year demanding a raise in pay. They offered him an increase amounting to about 300 dollars a year. He came back and told them it was not enough, and when asked how much he wanted, he replied promptly, “At least a 3,000 increase!”

Making merchandise of the gospel — that’s the logical outgrowth of the money-based mission system. And now almost every “missionary” church I know has hot dog suppers, quilt and cake sales, “gospel singings,” etc., to keep the money rolling in. And in order to give their constituents “more for their money,” they needed to change the “solemn assembly” into a time of entertainment, complete with organ, choir, quartet, soloist, X-mass pageant, ventriloquist dummy and more! Just anything the carnal nature is lusting for, the church will provide for them if they are willing to “pay.” What a far cry is all this from the churches of the New Testament. The Spirit of God is not a part of this, although it operates smoothly, thanks to the “tithe.”

A dear spiritual brother has pointed out (and we fully agree) that the report board is the idol of the average modern church. It is a continual scramble for bigger attendance and bigger offerings — “We must beat last year’s record!” It is all a thing of the flesh, whether of the straight denominational sort or of the independent fundamental style — still it is a business sales contest, a trafficking in souls. Little concern for the glory of God! Rather the chief concern of the modern preacher appears to be, “Get the crowds and get their money!”

These modern soul-winners are not directed by the same Spirit that led Paul and the other New Testament preachers. The Holy Spirit forbade their preaching the gospel in Asia and directed Paul and Silas to Philippi, a principal city of Macedonia. There they suffered imprisonment, harassment, beatings, and in it all only three people received their message, so far as we have in the record: a young damsel, the Philippian jailor, and Lydia “whose heart the Lord opened” (Acts 16:14). ALL these New Testament apostles endured great hardships to reach God’s elect, but they did it without the backing of a mission society. Neither did they anticipate that they could win all men, for they knew the Lord’s purpose was to gather out those “chosen in Christ” only. They neither offered Jesus to an indiscriminate multitude, nor did they tell the alien sinner that popular lie, “Jesus died for you!” Jesus my Lord really and truly suffered in the place of some sinners (the “elect,” known only to God), but we have no warrant to tell to any man that he is included in the number for whom Christ shed His precious blood. Such shallow stuff is not New Testament “Gospel, or Good News,” and yet they demand tithes of the people in order to promote it!



OLD TESTAMENT TITHING

In Old Testament times the tithe was required of the other eleven tribes to support the tribe of Levi, the priests. God did not allow the priestly tribe to own any personal possessions nor to have any inheritance in the land. They were wholly devoted to the Tabernacle and Temple service, and all their livelihood must come from the tithes of the people. There are no special priestly tribes today! In the New Testament every believer is a priest on equal footing with all other believers. In speaking of the priesthood and tithing, the writer of Hebrews affirms, “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law” (Heb. 7:12). What could be plainer to the child of God today? That forever annuls the tithing law.

In the Law, Moses ordained “all the tithe of the land, and whether of the seeds of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is holy unto the Lord” (Lev. 27:30). As we said, tithes were paid to the Levite (Num. 18:20-21). Tithes were also collected for the tabernacle and temple service, and for the poor and destitute (Deut. 14:22-29).

The missionary preachers of today in their demands for tithing are dishonest. They will scream to the rafters, “You must tithe on the gross of your pay, not the net after taxes!” Then the “preacher” will pay a tithe (many do not) on his “lowly salary” of $80,000 to $150,000. [ Figures revised from the time this was published 27 years ago!] Never does that preacher bother to take a tithe from his “expense account,” car expense allowance, free retirement and utilities, nor the value of the home he is living in free of charge! He is dishonest, covetous, carnal and unfaithful to demand the Levites’ tithe be paid to him. He often owns a nice home and property in another part of the state, drives two of the latest model automobiles and has a swelling bank account — whereas the faithful Old Testament Levite owned not a single worldly possession!

It is wresting Scripture to take Malachi chapter three and pronounce its “curses” upon everyone who will not put in the tithe, when you are not Levites and thus not entitled to the tithe, and no tithe was ever instituted for New Testament believers. If you want to abominate believers of today with the tithing “curse,” why not also use the curses of Isaiah and Jeremiah upon a people who corrupted the prophetic ministry, the offerings and the tabernacle service? If the one applies today, most surely does the other. And in your zeal, why not give some exposition of the “curses” pronounced by Old Testament prophets upon the unfaithful leaders and pastors? This chapter in Malachi does not belong to you, and you are not dealing honestly with the Scriptures.

When the purpose and program of the New Testament is known and followed, God’s people will have the unity and love of the Spirit in their midst. There is no need for tithing laws, envelopes, collections, etc., in such an assembly. The Lord will move the hearts of His loving people to provide every need for the work of the ministry in their midst. Every person on whom God has bestowed a gift will exercise that gift as led of the Lord, and he will be willing to work for his own material support. But if the Lord calls that servant into almost daily ministry, or if that servant should be in destitute condition, the people of God will recognize and respond to that need. That true messenger will not need to batter them on the head to get offerings.

The tithing system of today is a sad commentary upon the carnality of the entire mission system. But there is little hope to stem the tide, nor do we write from such a motive. Our purpose is that the truth of God shall be observed, that the Lord’s true ones — though despised and rejected of men — shall be strengthened in the pure truth, and that our blessed Lord Jesus Christ alone should be the prominent One in the church. May our eyes be upon HIM in wonder, love and praise, as we know that salvation is His work exclusively. He needs no persuasive talents of men, nor their money!

Let it be fully understood the laborer is worthy of his hire and God also ordained that they who labor full time in the Gospel should live of the Gospel (1 Cor. 9:14). God loves the cheerful giver and they who are the loved of the Lord will surely give as unto the Lord. They will have bowels of compassion for the poor — “But whoso hath this world’s goods, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?” (1 John 3:17). They will be ready to communicate to him that teacheth (Gal. 6:6; 1 Tim. 6:17-19). A stingy, hoarding spirit is not the spirit of Jesus, who was “rich” but left the palaces of Glory and became “poor,” that His dear children might be rich (2 Cor. 8:9)! But an obligated tithing system in a New Testament church is a legal system which is foreign to the spirit of this day of grace! We repeat: This tithing system, as practiced by most churches today, was unheard of in the Christian church until long after men had devised the modern, money-mission system. Then Old Testament tithing law was conveniently brought over in the New Testament church for the purpose of keeping the new machinery in motion! Sylvester Hassell said, “Their system of mission work was reduced down to one thing: GIVE GOLD!” Then they began to tabulate the dollars-and-cents cost of each convert, promising tithers so many “souls” for so many “dollars.” Talk about merchandizing the kingdom of God — this tithing business is where it all began!

Let men have their legal systems, but my prayer is for the gracious free spirit of those early church brethren who, when persecuted and scattered abroad, “went everywhere preaching the word” (Acts 3:4). They were so free from covetousness that Peter could say to one who offered them money from selfish motives, “Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money” (Acts 8:20).

The pilgrim life of faith is nearly unknown in our day. May God be pleased to destroy the legal tithing system, and give us a sacrificial love for our Lord and for His people.



— W. W. F. in The Old Faith Contender, 1977; slightly updated 2004.

billy-brown 2
Jan 29th 2009, 03:29 AM
The Tithing System

By Wylie Fulton, Forest City, N. C.





“Ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone” Matthew 23:23.



THIS SCRIPTURE is relied upon to teach tithing in the New Testament church age. However, it is clear that our Lord was here rebuking the Pharisees for their failure to keep the law of Moses, under which they lived and operated. Neither in the Book of Acts nor in any of the epistles do we have one word about tithing as a Christian injunction. And I might add, when you search the history of the church, the great confessions and books of divinity, you never find the doctrine of tithing UNTIL the late 19th and early 20th centuries. That might come as a surprise to many who have recently majored on tithing. The tithing principle which was a part of the old covenant ceremonial law has been adopted and used as a club by the modern church to force the people into a gigantic budget and money-based church program — merely another human means to “keep the pump primed” for the carnal programs of the modern Arminian church.

The words at the heading of this article are addressed by our Lord to those who were still under the old covenant. Of course, they “ought” to have paid the tithe, but their problem was that they had become self-righteous; that they rested in the outward performance of these duties, but knew nothing of judgment, mercy and faith. Where a church today is under a legal system of tithing or any other law service, you will find a proud self-righteous people who rest in the external works of their hands but know nothing of an experimental heart-work of grace and love. It is a tragic situation indeed, when the leaders of a people will make null and void the teachings of grace and run back to the old covenant.



THE QUESTION IS — Does the New Testament teach a system of tithing?

Is every Christian obligated by the Lord to place strictly ten-percent of all his earnings in the church or some form of mission work? Many teach what is termed “storehouse tithing,” that the entire tenth must be placed in the local church only, and that books be kept to substantiate this. Before we can determine whether the New Testament does in fact teach tithing, we would pose another question which is really at the foundation of these issues — namely,



Does the New Testament teach the mission system?

Early in the 19th century in Baptist ranks there was a great separation over money-based mission programs, salaried ministry and church auxiliaries. Those who stayed with the original church continued preaching election, predestination, and regeneration by God’s power alone. Those who went with the new party stressed regeneration by human means, “the gospel must be preached and they that preach must be paid,” etc. — whereas the written Word of God said they that preach must be “sent” by the Lord. The so-called “great commission” says, “Go” — not preach tithing and demand a salary. The new party or missionary Baptists instituted mission offerings, seminaries, missionary circles, and later Sunday Schools and tithing. Now does the commission require huge sums of money to send someone “into all the world”? Is the ministry on a level with other forms of human endeavor, where “the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it”? Will a bigger offering assure the salvation of more souls? If the Lord our God has chosen a people, His blessed Son has redeemed a people and promised to gather them all (John 6:37) unto Himself, then how does money enter into the picture?

How did the New Testament church fulfill its mission in the world? Did it provide stipulated salaries for every preacher who went forth at God’s call? I feel the answers to these questions are obvious to every reader who familiarizes himself with the New Testament and early church history. From Christ’s founding of the church until the late 1700s there was no mission system in any church (speaking from a Baptist point of view). Prior to the introduction of the Mission Society by Andrew Fuller and others, each God-called preacher went wherever God directed, looking to God alone for his support. Each church supported its God-called messengers as led of the Lord and assisted other churches where there was a need.

“For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not … Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” 2 Corinthians 8:12; 9:7).

Here we have New Testament giving, and that spirit of liberality was not created through a forced tithing pledge. One preacher whom I know here in the Carolinas says, “You’ll not be a deacon in my church unless you tithe!” There was no pledge in the Corinthian church and no preaching about tithing. God said, “Not of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver.” I will add, of course, that the church at Corinth was too near the apostolic pattern to have a salaried minister whose security demanded tithers in the church. It was too near the New Testament pattern to have a paid organist or a paid choir director. In fact, the Corinthian church even existed in a time when churches had no stated “program.” That church was so “strange” that it had no organizations for the young people! It existed to provide a home for the Lord’s children, a center of fellowship, all for the one purpose: “He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord” (2 Cor. 10:17). The Corinthian church had its internal strife and problems, but it was a true church, and neither the church at Corinth nor any other New Testament church was given as a “soul-saving station.” In New Testament times the people of God knew that “Salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), that it is not of man’s will or effort (Rom. 9:16). They were content to leave the eternal salvation of men in the hands of “God who showeth mercy.” Their preaching was a demonstration of the power of God to the “saved,” to the regenerate— but they knew that the same preaching was utter foolishness to the natural man (1 Cor. 1:18; 2:14). Therefore they did not put on money-raising campaigns. It’s that simple!

Then all service was done willingly “as unto the Lord,” and to even think of “charging” for such service would be a travesty. When our Lord Jesus Christ sent out the twelve, He commanded them, “Freely ye have received, freely give” (Matt. 10:8). I know of one “preacher” who went before his deacons last year demanding a raise in pay. They offered him an increase amounting to about 300 dollars a year. He came back and told them it was not enough, and when asked how much he wanted, he replied promptly, “At least a 3,000 increase!”

Making merchandise of the gospel — that’s the logical outgrowth of the money-based mission system. And now almost every “missionary” church I know has hot dog suppers, quilt and cake sales, “gospel singings,” etc., to keep the money rolling in. And in order to give their constituents “more for their money,” they needed to change the “solemn assembly” into a time of entertainment, complete with organ, choir, quartet, soloist, X-mass pageant, ventriloquist dummy and more! Just anything the carnal nature is lusting for, the church will provide for them if they are willing to “pay.” What a far cry is all this from the churches of the New Testament. The Spirit of God is not a part of this, although it operates smoothly, thanks to the “tithe.”

A dear spiritual brother has pointed out (and we fully agree) that the report board is the idol of the average modern church. It is a continual scramble for bigger attendance and bigger offerings — “We must beat last year’s record!” It is all a thing of the flesh, whether of the straight denominational sort or of the independent fundamental style — still it is a business sales contest, a trafficking in souls. Little concern for the glory of God! Rather the chief concern of the modern preacher appears to be, “Get the crowds and get their money!”

These modern soul-winners are not directed by the same Spirit that led Paul and the other New Testament preachers. The Holy Spirit forbade their preaching the gospel in Asia and directed Paul and Silas to Philippi, a principal city of Macedonia. There they suffered imprisonment, harassment, beatings, and in it all only three people received their message, so far as we have in the record: a young damsel, the Philippian jailor, and Lydia “whose heart the Lord opened” (Acts 16:14). ALL these New Testament apostles endured great hardships to reach God’s elect, but they did it without the backing of a mission society. Neither did they anticipate that they could win all men, for they knew the Lord’s purpose was to gather out those “chosen in Christ” only. They neither offered Jesus to an indiscriminate multitude, nor did they tell the alien sinner that popular lie, “Jesus died for you!” Jesus my Lord really and truly suffered in the place of some sinners (the “elect,” known only to God), but we have no warrant to tell to any man that he is included in the number for whom Christ shed His precious blood. Such shallow stuff is not New Testament “Gospel, or Good News,” and yet they demand tithes of the people in order to promote it!



OLD TESTAMENT TITHING

In Old Testament times the tithe was required of the other eleven tribes to support the tribe of Levi, the priests. God did not allow the priestly tribe to own any personal possessions nor to have any inheritance in the land. They were wholly devoted to the Tabernacle and Temple service, and all their livelihood must come from the tithes of the people. There are no special priestly tribes today! In the New Testament every believer is a priest on equal footing with all other believers. In speaking of the priesthood and tithing, the writer of Hebrews affirms, “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law” (Heb. 7:12). What could be plainer to the child of God today? That forever annuls the tithing law.

In the Law, Moses ordained “all the tithe of the land, and whether of the seeds of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s; it is holy unto the Lord” (Lev. 27:30). As we said, tithes were paid to the Levite (Num. 18:20-21). Tithes were also collected for the tabernacle and temple service, and for the poor and destitute (Deut. 14:22-29).

The missionary preachers of today in their demands for tithing are dishonest. They will scream to the rafters, “You must tithe on the gross of your pay, not the net after taxes!” Then the “preacher” will pay a tithe (many do not) on his “lowly salary” of $80,000 to $150,000. [ Figures revised from the time this was published 27 years ago!] Never does that preacher bother to take a tithe from his “expense account,” car expense allowance, free retirement and utilities, nor the value of the home he is living in free of charge! He is dishonest, covetous, carnal and unfaithful to demand the Levites’ tithe be paid to him. He often owns a nice home and property in another part of the state, drives two of the latest model automobiles and has a swelling bank account — whereas the faithful Old Testament Levite owned not a single worldly possession!

It is wresting Scripture to take Malachi chapter three and pronounce its “curses” upon everyone who will not put in the tithe, when you are not Levites and thus not entitled to the tithe, and no tithe was ever instituted for New Testament believers. If you want to abominate believers of today with the tithing “curse,” why not also use the curses of Isaiah and Jeremiah upon a people who corrupted the prophetic ministry, the offerings and the tabernacle service? If the one applies today, most surely does the other. And in your zeal, why not give some exposition of the “curses” pronounced by Old Testament prophets upon the unfaithful leaders and pastors? This chapter in Malachi does not belong to you, and you are not dealing honestly with the Scriptures.

When the purpose and program of the New Testament is known and followed, God’s people will have the unity and love of the Spirit in their midst. There is no need for tithing laws, envelopes, collections, etc., in such an assembly. The Lord will move the hearts of His loving people to provide every need for the work of the ministry in their midst. Every person on whom God has bestowed a gift will exercise that gift as led of the Lord, and he will be willing to work for his own material support. But if the Lord calls that servant into almost daily ministry, or if that servant should be in destitute condition, the people of God will recognize and respond to that need. That true messenger will not need to batter them on the head to get offerings.

The tithing system of today is a sad commentary upon the carnality of the entire mission system. But there is little hope to stem the tide, nor do we write from such a motive. Our purpose is that the truth of God shall be observed, that the Lord’s true ones — though despised and rejected of men — shall be strengthened in the pure truth, and that our blessed Lord Jesus Christ alone should be the prominent One in the church. May our eyes be upon HIM in wonder, love and praise, as we know that salvation is His work exclusively. He needs no persuasive talents of men, nor their money!

Let it be fully understood the laborer is worthy of his hire and God also ordained that they who labor full time in the Gospel should live of the Gospel (1 Cor. 9:14). God loves the cheerful giver and they who are the loved of the Lord will surely give as unto the Lord. They will have bowels of compassion for the poor — “But whoso hath this world’s goods, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?” (1 John 3:17). They will be ready to communicate to him that teacheth (Gal. 6:6; 1 Tim. 6:17-19). A stingy, hoarding spirit is not the spirit of Jesus, who was “rich” but left the palaces of Glory and became “poor,” that His dear children might be rich (2 Cor. 8:9)! But an obligated tithing system in a New Testament church is a legal system which is foreign to the spirit of this day of grace! We repeat: This tithing system, as practiced by most churches today, was unheard of in the Christian church until long after men had devised the modern, money-mission system. Then Old Testament tithing law was conveniently brought over in the New Testament church for the purpose of keeping the new machinery in motion! Sylvester Hassell said, “Their system of mission work was reduced down to one thing: GIVE GOLD!” Then they began to tabulate the dollars-and-cents cost of each convert, promising tithers so many “souls” for so many “dollars.” Talk about merchandizing the kingdom of God — this tithing business is where it all began!

Let men have their legal systems, but my prayer is for the gracious free spirit of those early church brethren who, when persecuted and scattered abroad, “went everywhere preaching the word” (Acts 3:4). They were so free from covetousness that Peter could say to one who offered them money from selfish motives, “Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money” (Acts 8:20).

The pilgrim life of faith is nearly unknown in our day. May God be pleased to destroy the legal tithing system, and give us a sacrificial love for our Lord and for His people.



— W. W. F. in The Old Faith Contender, 1977; slightly updated 2004.


What an incredible article . . . with much exhortation, indeed . . . ;)