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Equipped_4_Love
Oct 15th 2008, 04:18 AM
Could I get some feedback as to what most people think that Babylon the Great refers to, in Rev. 18? I've read that most people interpret this as being Rome. Is this what everyone else thinks?

Also, what do you make of verse 13, where it refers to bodies and souls of men being bought and sold as merchandise? My Bible commentary says that this relates to slavery, which is interesting, because one of the thoughts I had of this was the porn industry, in which people are bought and sold all of the time. Pornography truly is a slave trade....a multi-billion dollar industry wherein people are bought and sold. It is truly one of the vilest entities of these last days. I've heard it compared to slavery.

What do you guys think?

markedward
Oct 15th 2008, 06:25 AM
Jerusalem.

I could post my reasoning if you like. But just a warning: it's lengthy. And, as you said, most people are likely to disagree with me, and I'm just not so sure I can take that kind of a rejection.

vinsight4u8
Oct 15th 2008, 12:10 PM
Iraq

See Isaiah 47 and Jeremiah 50-51.

Emanate
Oct 15th 2008, 01:15 PM
Also, what do you make of verse 13, where it refers to bodies and souls of men being bought and sold as merchandise? My Bible commentary says that this relates to slavery, which is interesting, because one of the thoughts I had of this was the porn industry, in which people are bought and sold all of the time. Pornography truly is a slave trade....a multi-billion dollar industry wherein people are bought and sold. It is truly one of the vilest entities of these last days. I've heard it compared to slavery.

What do you guys think?

I am not sure that Slavery can be compared to willful prostitution i.e. the porn industry.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 15th 2008, 02:00 PM
Could I get some feedback as to what most people think that Babylon the Great refers to, in Rev. 18? I've read that most people interpret this as being Rome. Is this what everyone else thinks?

Also, what do you make of verse 13, where it refers to bodies and souls of men being bought and sold as merchandise? My Bible commentary says that this relates to slavery, which is interesting, because one of the thoughts I had of this was the porn industry, in which people are bought and sold all of the time. Pornography truly is a slave trade....a multi-billion dollar industry wherein people are bought and sold. It is truly one of the vilest entities of these last days. I've heard it compared to slavery.

What do you guys think?
I am not sure that Slavery can be compared to willful prostitution i.e. the porn industry.Yeah, that sounds to me like another attempt at the old America=Babylon tack.

HisServant
Oct 15th 2008, 02:37 PM
Just keep it very simple! "Babylon" and also "Babel" are "confusion". Where is confusion?

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

Everything that God made was and is "very good" [Gen 1:31]. Therefore does it not follow that anything and everything that someone other than God (man for example) has made or built is wherein the confusion must lie.

Is there anything that man has made or built that does not fall in this category of confusion?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

You take it from there!


Could I get some feedback as to what most people think that Babylon the Great refers to, in Rev. 18? I've read that most people interpret this as being Rome. Is this what everyone else thinks?

Also, what do you make of verse 13, where it refers to bodies and souls of men being bought and sold as merchandise? My Bible commentary says that this relates to slavery, which is interesting, because one of the thoughts I had of this was the porn industry, in which people are bought and sold all of the time. Pornography truly is a slave trade....a multi-billion dollar industry wherein people are bought and sold. It is truly one of the vilest entities of these last days. I've heard it compared to slavery.

What do you guys think?

vinsight4u8
Oct 15th 2008, 03:05 PM
Look at the end of Zechariah chapter 5 - What does it show you?

Shinar will be back strong in the endtimes!

Shinar will rebuild!


Iraq's land

Teke
Oct 15th 2008, 03:18 PM
Could I get some feedback as to what most people think that Babylon the Great refers to, in Rev. 18? I've read that most people interpret this as being Rome. Is this what everyone else thinks?

Yes. The reason is the association in chapter 17, "on her forehead a name was written". Roman law stated harlots must wear headbands exhibiting their name.
For late first century Christians, Babylon was incarnate of Rome (see 1 Peter 5:13), but it is primarily a spiritual reality, a "mystery" transcending concrete manifestations. Babylon=Babel, has always stood for rebellion against God (see Gen. 11:1-9), self-exaltation and idolatry.

Revelation 18 relates the judgment of Babylon (unrighteousness), and is contrasted with chapter 19's litany of triumph in heaven.


Also, what do you make of verse 13, where it refers to bodies and souls of men being bought and sold as merchandise? My Bible commentary says that this relates to slavery, which is interesting, because one of the thoughts I had of this was the porn industry, in which people are bought and sold all of the time. Pornography truly is a slave trade....a multi-billion dollar industry wherein people are bought and sold. It is truly one of the vilest entities of these last days. I've heard it compared to slavery.

What do you guys think?

Looking at verses 11-19. Like the political leaders (v 9,10), the economic leaders, the merchants, stand astonished at Rome's sudden destruction and their own loss of revenues. Verses 11-13 list luxury items in Rome's flow of trade (see Ezek. 27:1-24).

It was said by the rabbis, "Ten measures of wealth came down into the world; Rome received nine and all the world received one." These goods together with their profit made Rome queen (v7) of the world.

While worldly possessions are not in themselves good or bad, their misuse leads to sin, complacency, and a fatal lack of poverty of spirit (see 3:17-20). Therefore, excessive wealth can easily conflict with authentic Christian discipleship (see Matt. 6:24). The last item in this list, bodies and souls, refers to slaves, sold at auction as human livestock for domestic service, prostitution, and gladiatorial amusements.

God's people are called to come out of her, meaning such unrighteousness, so they do not suffer in partaking of her punishment. Separation from this world is spiritual - not necessarily a physical move, but a refusal to participate in the works of darkness (2 Cor. 6:14-18). This was one cause for the development of monasticism when the world (culture, society, empire) recognized Christianity. The monastics felt the church joined the world.

OldChurchGuy
Oct 16th 2008, 02:13 AM
Could I get some feedback as to what most people think that Babylon the Great refers to, in Rev. 18? I've read that most people interpret this as being Rome. Is this what everyone else thinks?

Also, what do you make of verse 13, where it refers to bodies and souls of men being bought and sold as merchandise? My Bible commentary says that this relates to slavery, which is interesting, because one of the thoughts I had of this was the porn industry, in which people are bought and sold all of the time. Pornography truly is a slave trade....a multi-billion dollar industry wherein people are bought and sold. It is truly one of the vilest entities of these last days. I've heard it compared to slavery.

What do you guys think?

Depends on which interpretation of Revelation you subscribe to.

To those who view Revelation as being written for the times, Babylon = Rome.

To those who see Revelation as being an unfolding history which has had much already fulfilled through the centuries but has yet to be completely fulfilled then Babylon also = Rome.

For those who see Revelation as primarily a symbolic writing Babylon = Rome.

And for those who see Revelation is essentially an unfulfilled view of future events, Babylon = the USA, or the EU, or the Roman Catholic Church, or a nation in the Mid-East, or Russia (to name a few).

Regarding the "bodies and souls of men", some sources see it a slavery; others see it a prostitution and pornography; still others think it may refer to slavery and cloning.

This link seems to support the ihdea of slavery based on the Greek: http://books.google.com/books?id=CM7Kpr6R3JoC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=Revelation+%22bodies+and+souls+of+men%22&source=web&ots=eHmmhxYDo9&sig=wibk_7iqq9v3bN7D0QVaOKDwms0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

Which view makes the most sense to you?

OldChurchGuy

Dani H
Oct 16th 2008, 02:24 AM
Just keep it very simple! "Babylon" and also "Babel" are "confusion". Where is confusion?

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

Everything that God made was and is "very good" [Gen 1:31]. Therefore does it not follow that anything and everything that someone other than God (man for example) has made or built is wherein the confusion must lie.

Is there anything that man has made or built that does not fall in this category of confusion?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

You take it from there!

I don't think it's a physical place either. I think it's a man-made system of thinking and behavior that God is going to vanquish for good.

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 16th 2008, 02:46 AM
Great responses, you guys. Much to think on.

Thank so much

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 16th 2008, 02:51 AM
Yeah, that sounds to me like another attempt at the old America=Babylon tack.

Really?!

That is certainly not the direction I was going, and I don't really think Babylon symbolizes America here.

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 16th 2008, 02:55 AM
The last item in this list, bodies and souls, refers to slaves, sold at auction as human livestock for domestic service, prostitution, and gladiatorial amusements.

This is sort of what my Bible commentary touched on....people bought and sold for whatever reason.

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 16th 2008, 02:58 AM
I am not sure that Slavery can be compared to willful prostitution i.e. the porn industry.

The problem is that.....it is not always willful.
Not to deviate this thread, but there is a deeper element to the porn industry that most people realize. That is all I will say about that.

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 16th 2008, 03:01 AM
Regarding the "bodies and souls of men", some sources see it a slavery; others see it a prostitution and pornography; still others think it may refer to slavery and cloning.

This link seems to support the ihdea of slavery based on the Greek: http://books.google.com/books?id=CM7Kpr6R3JoC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=Revelation+%22bodies+and+souls+of+men%22&source=web&ots=eHmmhxYDo9&sig=wibk_7iqq9v3bN7D0QVaOKDwms0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

Which view makes the most sense to you?

OldChurchGuy

Good info. Thanks so much. I really can't say which view makles the most sense. I will be giving it prayerful consideration, but you've given me much to chew on.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 16th 2008, 03:58 AM
Really?!

That is certainly not the direction I was going, and I don't really think Babylon symbolizes America here.Oh, well that's good to know. I just assumed (and we all know what assuming does, right? ;) ) that your comments about porn were going to wind up leading into America since America is the most porn-ridden nation in the world. My apologies for the false assumption. :D

Equipped_4_Love
Oct 16th 2008, 04:29 AM
Oh, well that's good to know. I just assumed (and we all know what assuming does, right? ;) ) that your comments about porn were going to wind up leading into America since America is the most porn-ridden nation in the world. My apologies for the false assumption. :D

Yes...America produces the majority of pornographic material, but are not the only consumers of it. Pornography is big business in many parts of the world. It wouldn't surprise me if Babylon is a major consumer of pornography.....but that's just a theory.

jeffweeder
Oct 16th 2008, 04:42 AM
Hi welder.

Have you read my thread on the blood of the prophets, saints and all the righteous in the end times forum?
This may raise a qu or to for you to further study.
God bless.

winterband
Oct 16th 2008, 05:16 AM
Could I get some feedback as to what most people think that Babylon the Great refers to, in Rev. 18? I've read that most people interpret this as being Rome. Is this what everyone else thinks?

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

What is the mother church of most polytheist churches? What early church was real big on murdering the real Christians as heretics (though they did get a few real heretics too)?

Regards,

Bro. Winter
--
For doctrine: http://www.prime.org
For music: http://www.winterband.com

Literalist-Luke
Oct 16th 2008, 07:20 AM
What is the mother church of most polytheist churches?Who said anything about polytheism? I don't see that requirement listed in Revelation. Did it ever occur to you that Mystery Babylon could be a monotheistic form of the original Genesis 11 system?

Teke
Oct 16th 2008, 02:50 PM
This is sort of what my Bible commentary touched on....people bought and sold for whatever reason.

An analogical application can be furthered in Christianity itself. Making comparisons such as harlot vs virgin bride. Meaning it can relate on a personal level as well to cause us to think.

For instance I learned a hard lesson on this. Within Christianity we can tend to take things to extremes (no surprise there:D). Such as evangelism. When evangelism becomes a matter of proselytizing between Christians, it becomes sin. Leading us to be spiritual harlots like the Babylonian model, getting people to buy and sell one another for gain. Which other sins are mixed in as well, such as coveting, dishonoring parents, and even God and His Church/Body.

Ironically, Russians and Americans are in such a mess/confusion as this presently. Historically Russia (Orthodox Christianity) is the first country to evangelize America, the first American Christian martyr being St Peter the Aleut who was killed by the Roman Catholics (they were proselytizing) for not converting to their church. He told them he was already a Christian, what more did they want.
Fast forward to present times, you'll find evangelicals who believe they need to evangelize an already Christian country such as Russia. I've actually read where they can't attack the church itself there, so they've decided to instead take the road through the youth who are not as educated. This to me is a sinful act. Myself being of that faith, know that Russia will not take such a thing lying down, as they've been Christians far longer than Americans, and have proven the strength of their faith through bitter times and martyrdom the likes of which Americans have never seen yet.

Emanate
Oct 16th 2008, 02:52 PM
What is the mother church of most polytheist churches? What early church was real big on murdering the real Christians as heretics (though they did get a few real heretics too)?


Protestants and Catholics both have their fair share of bloody hands.

winterband
Oct 16th 2008, 02:55 PM
Protestants and Catholics both have their fair share of bloody hands.

Exactly the point. The mother church and her daughters. What do they have in common?

Bro. Winter

--
For doctrine: http://www.prime.org
For music: http://www.winterband.com

Partaker of Christ
Oct 16th 2008, 09:01 PM
Who said anything about polytheism? I don't see that requirement listed in Revelation. Did it ever occur to you that Mystery Babylon could be a monotheistic form of the original Genesis 11 system?

Hi LL!

I believe that what winterband [Pastor Steve Winter] really means by 'polytheism' is 'Trinitarian'
He believes that Trinitarians will go to hell.

Quote from his web site:
"All trinity cults are equally antichrist with their mother church
as they are merely "Catholic lite"™.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 17th 2008, 12:09 AM
Protestants and Catholics both have their fair share of bloody hands.

Maybe I`m going off topic,

But It`s equally sad that a nation based in Freedom of Conscience as US would bomb Hiroshima like that!

Be good

Literalist-Luke
Oct 17th 2008, 04:17 AM
But It`s equally sad that a nation based in Freedom of Conscience as US would bomb Hiroshima like that!As opposed to launching a standard invasion of the Japanese home islands that would have cost the lives of an even greater number of Japanese, would have destroyed far more infrastructure than just Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and would have cost the lives of well over 100,000 American servicemen? Hogwash. The two atomic bombs were the more humane choice. Many lives were spared because of Truman's courage to use them.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 17th 2008, 04:19 AM
Hi LL!

I believe that what winterband [Pastor Steve Winter] really means by 'polytheism' is 'Trinitarian'
He believes that Trinitarians will go to hell.Huh, OK. I guess I'm just not familiar with "Trinitarianism". Guess it's time to go Google.....

Literalist-Luke
Oct 17th 2008, 04:22 AM
Huh, OK. I guess I'm just not familiar with "Trinitarianism". Guess it's time to go Google.....Is "Trinitarianism" merely belief in the Trinity of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit? How would that send somebody to hell? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/mmph.gif

Dani H
Oct 17th 2008, 04:24 AM
Is "Trinitarianism" merely belief in the Trinity of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit? How would that send somebody to hell? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/mmph.gif

I'll keep our pit warm for you ... seems we're in trouble again. :)

Literalist-Luke
Oct 17th 2008, 04:45 AM
I'll keep our pit warm for you ... seems we're in trouble again. :)Well, I just went to winterband's "doctrine" website and read up a little on what he has to say about the Trinity. I don't really see that it's all that big a deal. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/noidea.gif

I mean, I agree that there is only one God, just like the Bible says. The way I've always understood the Trinity (not that I'm a theologian or anything) is sort of like me. One moment, I'm Literalist-Luke, official Opinion Meister of Bible Forums. Another moment, I'm a sales rep working for my company. Then, in another moment, I'm the sound operator at my church. One person in different roles. I've just always taken God in pretty much the same way. He has different aspects/roles that we see manifested in different ways, especially in the Father/Son/Holy Spirit roles. But they're all the same God. So I don't see what the big deal is that the Trinity would be a problem. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/noidea.gif

Dani H
Oct 17th 2008, 04:50 AM
Well, I just went to winterband's "doctrine" website and read up a little on what he has to say about the Trinity. I don't really see that it's all that big a deal. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/noidea.gif

I mean, I agree that there is only one God, just like the Bible says. The way I've always understood the Trinity (not that I'm a theologian or anything) is sort of like me. One moment, I'm Literalist-Luke, official Opinion Meister of Bible Forums. Another moment, I'm a sales rep working for my company. Then, in another moment, I'm the sound operator at my church. One person in different roles. I've just always taken God in pretty much the same way. He has different aspects/roles that we see manifested in different ways, especially in the Father/Son/Holy Spirit roles. But they're all the same God. So I don't see what the big deal is that the Trinity would be a problem. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/noidea.gif

Because some people think that anyone who doesn't interpret Scripture as they do, is going to hell? I dunno either ... *shrug*

Literalist-Luke
Oct 17th 2008, 04:54 AM
Because some people think that anyone who doesn't interpret Scripture as they do, is going to hell? I dunno either ... *shrug*Oh, believe me, I've encountered a whole truckload of people during my life who are convinced that anybody who doesn't interpret Scripture just like they do are hell-bound. That's nothing new.

I'm just not sure what the big deal with the trinity is that "oneness" people make such a big deal out of. I mean, I'm not ridiculing it or bashing it, I just don't know enough about it feel like I have an informed opinion about it. (And for the "Opinion Meister" to not be able to have an informed opinion is a real tragedy! :lol:)

So I guess I'm going to have to hear from Winterband on this one. Actually, I'll do better than that. Because we've already derailed this thread enough as it is. I'll just go start another thread asking about oneness.

OK, everybody, http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thtopic.gif

Chimon
Oct 17th 2008, 11:52 AM
I think that it could be either Rome or Jerusalem. Both are build on mountainous terrain, which is mentioned specifically by John.

What is clear is that Babylon does not refer to literal Babylon, because John says Babylon is built on mountains, but the literal city of Babylon is not built on mountains, but on a floodplain. It is probably a code for a city John felt he could not blame.

I have heard the idea that it is a code for an immoral city that was not built yet, that was built on mountainous terrian, such as San Francisco. I don't think this is too likely...

Teke
Oct 17th 2008, 02:56 PM
Oh, believe me, I've encountered a whole truckload of people during my life who are convinced that anybody who doesn't interpret Scripture just like they do are hell-bound. That's nothing new.


I suppose they need to know that Babylon has been judged then. As that couldn't be the response of a faithful Christian, one who follows Christ in His Church which is directed to pray for one another.
People like that have a "Babylon Feeling"
What It's Like by Everlast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCZ1YteCv5M)
secular song that makes the point

ananias
Oct 17th 2008, 03:30 PM
I don't think it's a physical place either. I think it's a man-made system of thinking and behavior that God is going to vanquish for good.

Yeah, perhaps. And if so, then it started in Babylon.

The Hebrew words for "the seed of the woman" (Gen.3: 15; Rev.12: 1) are zera (seed) and ishah (woman)

In ancient Chaldean (Babylonian - a dilaect of ncient Hebrew) it was pronounced zero ishtar ("The Two Babylons" by the late Rev. Alexander Hislop)

Ishah was called Havah (Eve) because she was THE MOTHER OF ALL LIVING)

Ishtar was the great Babylonian MOTHER-GODDESS.

The worship of Ishtar and her seed spread throughout the world from Babel (Babylon), and the Worship of Ishtar and her seed is the root (or "the mother") of all the religions and religious systems of ancient Rome, Greece, Egypt, Arabia, Mesopotamia, and India, according to Rev. Hislop in "The Two Babylons" (in which he provides an overwehleming abundance of evidence of this).

Much of this religion was integrated into "Christianity" by the Roman church, according to Hislop.

"The woman" of Revelation 12 is contrasted in a number of ways with "the woman" ("Babylon the Great, the mother of Harlots" etc) of Revelation 17.

"Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth" is carried by a seven-headed beast which represents the kingdoms/empires of fallen mankind - the kingdoms/empires of "the nations"

ananias

Teke
Oct 17th 2008, 04:18 PM
"Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth" is carried by a seven-headed beast which represents the kingdoms/empires of fallen mankind - the kingdoms/empires of "the nations"

ananias


There are seven continents on the earth. The land that God gave man dominion over, is what supports her. It's a depiction of the corruption man can bring to the land God gave him. The seven headed beast is man on that land.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 17th 2008, 06:45 PM
There are seven continents on the earth. The land that God gave man dominion over, is what supports her. It's a depiction of the corruption man can bring to the land God gave him. The seven headed beast is man on that land.

Babylon can be known also of the following way:

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world". 1 John 4: 2-3.


And If Christ came in the flesh... What flesh?


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2:14-15.


Go well

Teke
Oct 17th 2008, 06:59 PM
Babylon can be known also of the following way:

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world". 1 John 4: 2-3.


And If Christ came in the flesh... What flesh?


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2:14-15.


Go well





:amen:
1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Veretax
Oct 18th 2008, 04:42 AM
Rev: 17:9-13 .9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.


Seven mountains is Code for Rome. However, my study bible notes that it could be Seven nations ruled by ten kings. I've also heard it said that the ten kings represent ten kingdoms and he seven heads -> mountains is where they rule. Which is scary cause I read that the UN was discussing of dividing the world into "ten" districts :/ However, it could be some other place too.

GeorgeK
Oct 20th 2008, 04:09 AM
Babylon is the roman empire which now is the EU when 10 countries sign the constitution. The whore who rides the beast is the catholic church. A woman represents the church, where as a whore or harlot represents a false church.

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 04:29 PM
Babylon is the roman empire which now is the EU when 10 countries sign the constitution. The whore who rides the beast is the catholic church. A woman represents the church, where as a whore or harlot represents a false church.


Yes, and Prince Charles is the Antichrist.

Seriously though, I did not know this view still held water.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 21st 2008, 05:07 PM
I did not know this view still held water."Tradition" dies hard.

Teke
Oct 21st 2008, 06:38 PM
"Tradition" dies hard.

Not even close to anything "tradition"al.
I can't even believe you'd compare it to tradition, you being "Literalist" Luke.

Emanate
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:40 AM
Not even close to anything "tradition"al.
I can't even believe you'd compare it to tradition, you being "Literalist" Luke.


Actually, this is an extremely traditional view in much of Christianity, modified with the view of the EU. I have heard something similar to this for the 30+ plus years of my life. Teke, just one viewing of Jack Van Impe will show you how "traditional" this view is.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:47 AM
Not even close to anything "tradition"al.
I can't even believe you'd compare it to tradition, you being "Literalist" Luke.If you want to talk about "literal", then show me where in the Bible it equates Babylon or the fourth beast with "Rome" or the "Catholic Church".

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:07 AM
Revelation 17:7-18
"7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” 15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”"

In John's time the most prominent city that was known to have Seven hills was Rome. That is the main reason many traditionalist feel that the Beast's kingdom will center on Rome. I have heard it said that the ten kings is similar to the EU, and that a symbol similar to the harlot on the beast is used in europe as a common symbol. (Can't recall where I saw that most recently though).

However, in the news the other day I read of some "secret UN Plan" To divide the world into ten regions, so who knows which is correct.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:29 PM
Actually, this is an extremely traditional view in much of Christianity, modified with the view of the EU. I have heard something similar to this for the 30+ plus years of my life. Teke, just one viewing of Jack Van Impe will show you how "traditional" this view is.

You must be talking about the fabrications associated with "rapture" teachings. IMO that's an immature manner of looking at Revelation, especially to prepare Christians who haven't experienced the antichrist yet.

I'm more realistic and practical about the subject. Grant it that the Roman empire, historically speaking in the context of Revelation, is depicted as antichrist. However, that is only a first appearance for the then emerging Christian church. And why not there first since that is where Christianity is first.

If you read literature on Russia, a firmly established Christian country, with thousands of churches, you will read of the persecution of Christianity there under Sergianism (aka leaven of Herod) which is associated to their patriarchal hierarchy that they believe is still associated with the communist regime. IOW you see a Christian church head working with an antichrist government to bring all the people into submission. Something completely against their church canons (especially the Apostles' canons which is part of their canons).
Anyone can read of the persecution of Christianity there by "antichrist" (their own term of it)

As the Apostles tell us in scripture, even in their own time the antichrist has gone out into the world. There will be no part of the world that will be untouched by antichrist.
So it makes no sense to look at any one place on earth, but everywhere on the earth. Christians may as well face the fact that they will deal with the antichrist in some form or another.

Any Christian who seeks to protect their self spiritually from antichrist, should surely check themselves and what teachings their buying into.
If a Christian believes that Rome is their antichrist presently, then it is likely they are already infected. Whether they believe their under the influence of such a church head or not. It doesn't take direct association to be influenced by such teachings, the indirect is more subtle.

Faithful Christians will not put themselves under any one church head and teachings associated with that head, nor is such a thing necessary. Only the true apostolic teachings are going to guard them. Whatever is outside of that is not from them. The only thing that will help is a strong unyielding faith in which God leads you.

To make up theories about any one particular place, leaves Christians open to an unseen attack.
That is as much as I will say generally speaking on this board.

Emanate
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:03 PM
You must be talking about the fabrications associated with "rapture" teachings. IMO that's an immature manner of looking at Revelation, especially to prepare Christians who haven't experienced the antichrist yet.

I'm more realistic and practical about the subject.

Sure it is, but that does not negate the fact that it is a very traditional teaching in much of evangelical Christianity.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:40 PM
Sure it is, but that does not negate the fact that it is a very traditional teaching in much of evangelical Christianity.

Then that branch of Christianity (aka American Conservative Christians) is stirring up wars, with rumors of war, for their own cause. And the rest of the Christian world has to suffer for it. That's what you call an antichrist spirit and that which persecutes other Christians.

It is not a "traditional teaching" in association with historical Christianity, it is a cultural teaching. As it is unique to only one culture, well, actually it has a lot in common with Islam and Muslims.

Emanate
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:45 PM
Then that branch of Christianity (aka American Conservative Christians) is stirring up wars, with rumors of war, for their own cause. And the rest of the Christian world has to suffer for it. That's what you call an antichrist spirit and that which persecutes other Christians.

It is not a "traditional teaching" in association with historical Christianity, it is a cultural teaching. As it is unique to only one culture, well, actually it has a lot in common with Islam and Muslims.

Tradition is generally based on culture. So yes, it is an extremely traditional teaching.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:55 PM
Revelation 17:7-18
"7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” 15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”"

In John's time the most prominent city that was known to have Seven hills was Rome. That is the main reason many traditionalist feel that the Beast's kingdom will center on Rome. I have heard it said that the ten kings is similar to the EU, and that a symbol similar to the harlot on the beast is used in europe as a common symbol. (Can't recall where I saw that most recently though).

However, in the news the other day I read of some "secret UN Plan" To divide the world into ten regions, so who knows which is correct.

Seven "hills" does not equate to "mountains". Mountains are symbolic of power. This can all just as well be explained as the apostate church with it's seven patriarchates (places the Apostles evangelized first).

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:03 PM
Tradition is generally based on culture. So yes, it is an extremely traditional teaching.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is not based on any culture and it's tradition. If that were true then Christians would be Jews. Like our Lord said, you can't serve two masters. Meaning you can't be a Christian and a nationalist. Your either in the kingdom of God (not of this world) or some other kingdom (of the world).

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:40 PM
Then that branch of Christianity (aka American Conservative Christians) is stirring up wars, with rumors of war, for their own cause. And the rest of the Christian world has to suffer for it. That's what you call an antichrist spirit and that which persecutes other Christians.

It is not a "traditional teaching" in association with historical Christianity, it is a cultural teaching. As it is unique to only one culture, well, actually it has a lot in common with Islam and Muslims.

Forgive me for drawing question marks here, but what wars are you assuming that American Conservative Christians want to start? I'm afarid you are going to have to give some facts to back up that claim, because I disagree. Most of the Conservative Christians I know, despise war. We certainly don't want to be "starting" wars. Although I seem to recall that at one time the Westminister Confession of Faith (or the catechisms) often used by reformed churches, at one time believed that the Pope or the Catholic church would be the Anti Christ... I don't know if that is still part of the text or not as I've not kept up with it since I left Reformed thinking behind.


Seven "hills" does not equate to "mountains". Mountains are symbolic of power. This can all just as well be explained as the apostate church with it's seven patriarchates (places the Apostles evangelized first).

I agree, recent events and study, have let it open that perhaps that belief about rome is incorrect. I do believe however that the woman riding the beast will symbolize a coming one world system of religion though.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:09 PM
Forgive me for drawing question marks here, but what wars are you assuming that American Conservative Christians want to start? I'm afarid you are going to have to give some facts to back up that claim, because I disagree. Most of the Conservative Christians I know, despise war. We certainly don't want to be "starting" wars.

The context of the statement was in reference to American evangelicals. I am not an evangelical Christian. I would also term myself as a conservative Christian, just not of the American evangelical sort.
Here (http://www.antiwar.com/orig/deliso76.html) is an article that will give you an idea of the domino effect within world wide Christianity. And what I meant by wars and the effect on Christianity.
I don't believe this only an American problem, but a world wide problem. Christians were horrified when Russia invaded Georgia, not because of government, but because of their brethren Christians and how that made them look.



Although I seem to recall that at one time the Westminister Confession of Faith (or the catechisms) often used by reformed churches, at one time believed that the Pope or the Catholic church would be the Anti Christ... I don't know if that is still part of the text or not as I've not kept up with it since I left Reformed thinking behind.

I'm not "reformed" either. The apostolic teachings are good enough for this traditional conservative Christian.



I agree, recent events and study, have let it open that perhaps that belief about rome is incorrect. I do believe however that the woman riding the beast will symbolize a coming one world system of religion though.

"System of religion" or systematic theology? Is there a distinct difference or are they mutually the same thing. I believe the latter.
While systematic theology did begin in the Roman church, the rest of the church didn't follow such a thing. However, the world (outside the church) sees otherwise.
My theological approach is not systematic. I am more of the "mystical" sort. That which can't be pinned down in a "system".

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:40 PM
Wow, that's a nice propaganda piece. And dated some 5 years ago. I have heard of the suffering of Christians in places like Georgia and Iraq though. That is a travesty for sure.

However, To say we should give Pope the Moral Authority? Sorry, I'm not a believer in that sort of thing. While I disagree with some of the crazy stuff I've seen from people like Pat Robertson and others like him of late, I can do nothing but laugh at the tone of that page, sorry.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:58 PM
Wow, that's a nice propaganda piece. And dated some 5 years ago. I have heard of the suffering of Christians in places like Georgia and Iraq though. That is a travesty for sure.

However, To say we should give Pope the Moral Authority? Sorry, I'm not a believer in that sort of thing. While I disagree with some of the crazy stuff I've seen from people like Pat Robertson and others like him of late, I can do nothing but laugh at the tone of that page, sorry.

I'll have to see if we reading the same thing, because I certainly wouldn't agree with giving the pope moral authority.

Is that how you read this.

Should the Pontiff not enjoy the moral authority that comes with such time-honored values?

The answer, of course, is yes. That said, however, even the Catholic Church has older Christian predecessors. These, the Orthodox churches, view the Vatican as guilty of minor theological "innovations" and the arbitrary elevation of the pope above the seven traditional patriarchs. Historically misunderstood and mistrusted by fellow Christians, the Orthodox practice the oldest forms of Christianity – and especially those in the Middle East, which America would like to bomb into oblivion.

Note "even the Catholic Church has older predecessors".

If you think any of this is propaganda, you need to personally talk with the people who live there or their relatives that live here in the US. The date of this article is irrelevant, this has been going on for a long time and still is.

info on author- Christopher Deliso is a freelance writer and Balkan correspondent for Antiwar.com, UPI, and private European analysis firms. He has lived and traveled widely in the Balkans, southeastern Europe and Turkey, and holds a master's degree with distinction in Byzantine Studies from Oxford University. In the past year, he has reported from many countries, including Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, Greece, the Republic of Georgia and the Turkey-Iraq border. Mr. Deliso currently lives in Macedonia, and is involved with projects to generate international interest and tourism there.

Romulus
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:27 PM
I agree with Markedward earlier that Babylon in Revelation is referring to Jerusalem. Let us take a look at the scriptures referring to Babylon:

Revelation 14

8A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

In this scripture there is something very interesting. The term "her adulteries" is used and helps us to begin to understand who Babylon is. First off this is not a literal woman who committed adultary but rather we have scripture using marriage terms to symbolicly describe the relationship of Babylon to others. To imply adultaries means there must be a covenant relationship between "Babylon" and someone else. Just like in marriage, adultary is only committed in a marriage. If their was no covenant relationship then there would not be any adultary committed but rather fornication and yet scripture is clear to point out that adultary had been committed. If Rome is in view here, what covenant relationship did Rome have? I don't believe any. Rome was no different then any other heathan nation that rebelled against God. The only nation in scripture that had a Covenant relationship was Israel/Jerusalem. There was no other city but Jerusalem that was considered the "bride" of God. There most certainly was a distinction between Israel and every other nation on earth. Israel was chosen to be brought the Gospel first and was to be the nation that all others were to be saved through.

The next question is, how did Israel/Jerusalem commit adultary against God? There are scriptures all throughout the Old Testament about Israel's unfaithfullness to God in turning from Him and worshipping other nations god's but God always forgave them and brought Israel back to Him. So again, what adultary did Israel commit to warrant the destruction against her in the following scriptures below? Plain and simple, the rejection of God's one and only Son became the ultimate adultary.

John 19


14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered. 16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.



The ultimate unfaithfullness was when a majority of Israel declared Caesar their King, and not Christ. Israel, who was in Covenant relationship with God had publicly rejected their Messiah and declared Rome their King. This also brings to mind the Parable of Tenants in Luke 20. Remember God was the owner and had rented the vineyard over to tenants who never gave fruit from the vineyard to the owner. They beat the servants sent to them each time and finally the owner sent his Son and they killed Him. Did not then the owner(God) say I will destroy those wicked tenants and give the vineyard to another who will bare fruit?

One note, let us not forget the Remnant of Israel who did receive the Gospel, Matthew, Peter, Mark and the other disciples and people's who were all Jews. They received Christ and became the faithful Remnant that became the first fruits of the one vine that the believing gentiles were then grafted into.

Revelation 16

18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.

Here is the judgement that was to befall the great city because of her unfaithfullness. Again, if this was Rome what made Rome different then any other heathan nation that was against God? Nothing! Only Israel was in Covenant relationship with God. No other nation had this distinction. The term great city is also used in Revelation here:

Revelation 11

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, where else?




Revelation 17

4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Chapter 17 deals with the woman(harlot) who sits upon a beast. I will explain the beast shortly but it is important to understand the woman who rides the beast is not the same as the beast but simply in league with it. Who was the greatest persecuter of the first Christians and guilty of the blood of the Saints. Was it not 1st century Israel who stoned and murdered the prophets such as Stephen? Was not the book of Acts and the other books in the New Testament filled with stories of the persecution of the 1st century believers and how many were martyred for their faith by Israel? Just a note of interest, the purple and scarlet that the harlot wears in relation to scripture is an allusion to the Tabernacle and the linen ephod worn by the hight priest in the Old Testament which was adorned by these colors.

Revelation 17

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Concerning the beast who the harlot(babylon) rides is not a literal beast but an allusion to a nation. The clues as to who the beast is, is given above. There was only one nation known as the "city on seven hills" historically. It was Rome. The scripture states that this nation has also seven kings. Five have fallen(died), one is(living) and the other has not yet come but he must remain for a little while. Since Rome is in view here let us look at Roman history. Here are the Kings(emperor's) of Rome:

1) Julius Caesar-Fallen
2) Augustus Caesar-Fallen
3) Tiberius Caesar-Fallen
4) Caligula Caesar-Fallen
5) Claudius Caesar-Fallen
6) Nero Caesar-Is (when Revelation was written)
7) Galba Caesar-Not yet come, remain a little (reigned 3 months)

Who was the greatest persecuters of the early Christians. Was it not Israel and Rome who together tried to wipe out Christianity? This now makes sense as to the Harlot(Israel) who was riding the beast(Rome.)

Revelation 17

15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

The woman(harlot/Babylon) is the geat city that rules over the kings of the earth. How does this describe Israel/Jerusalem? Well if Israel was the only nation in Covenant with God, Israel did rule over every other nation who was not in Covenant with God. Israel was who the Messiah was to come to first. Through Israel every other nation was to be saved. The Gospel of the kingdom went to Israel first. Israel was distinct, set apart and she violated the Covenant with her one true husband, God Himself. God was to give the not just the land of Israel to her but the entire world through the proclamation of the Gospel. Most of Israel rejected the Gospel and now judgment was to come against her as stated in matthew 23 and 24:

Matthew 23

33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2023;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23955d)]"

Matthew 24

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Matthew 24

34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


The last three scriptures was the judgement that was occur against the harlot(Israel).

Revelation 18

1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=18&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-30980a)] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

Revelation 18

9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'
11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more—

Revelation 18

20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.' "
21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.

The last three scriptures was the judgement that was occur against the harlot(Israel). Also see Revelation 17 as it relates to history:

Revelation 17

16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.

Even though Israel was in league with Rome, just as Jesus had prophecied in Matthew 23 and 24, within a generation the temple and Jerusalem itself were destroyed by the beast(Rome) on August 31, 70 A.D. Babylon was finally judged for all the unfaithfullness she had committed. There was no other nation that was distinct from all others. There was only one nation that was in Covenant with God. Only 1st century Israel broke a Covenant with God. This was for the 1st century, not the 21st century. When we see it through the eyes of those who heard it first, do we see how through scripture only 1st century Israel is in view here.

I don't believe Israel/Jerusalem today is in view. If it was, they would be guilty of the blood of the saints. The only one who was guilty of their blood was 1st century Israel.

:hmm:

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:12 PM
Good post Romulus.
What makes it an ongoing message, is that the "adulterer" is also the "mother of harlots/prostitutes". IOW she has offspring to propagate.

Biastai
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:24 PM
Rome is well known to be a city of 7 hills. The Christians did not explicitly write against Rome for their own protection, so Babylon may have been a "code name" for the imperial city. A possibe example of the use of Babylon in this way is found in Peter's greeting in 1 Peter 5:13...

"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark."

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:30 PM
We will have to disagree on that then, because to me it comes off as Anti-Bush, Anti-American propaganda. It reads as hate speech, not as truth telling to me. That's my perspective on it. Furthermore, I don't consider the Catholic Church ie. its Pope to be of any use as far as I'm concerned. (Note that my Father's family is catholic, but he and I am not.) I am not Catholic, and therefore the pope has zero authority over me. I answer to God himself and the local church to which I have submitted myself to wherein such things would be concerned.

As far as talking to "Christians" overseas, that's easier said than done even with the internet. I am well aware that the Bush administration has made some very (shakes head) stupid judgments. I voted for the man twice, but I feel now that I was mislead by him, and that he's been a pretty ineffectual leader on some issues that I feel are important.

As for your post, Romulus. That's a lot of text to try and reply to, and I don't wish to do that without my own bible handy so I will reserve a response until later.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:37 PM
We will have to disagree on that then, because to me it comes off as Anti-Bush, Anti-American propaganda. It reads as hate speech, not as truth telling to me. That's my perspective on it. Furthermore, I don't consider the Catholic Church ie. its Pope to be of any use as far as I'm concerned. (Note that my Father's family is catholic, but he and I am not.) I am not Catholic, and therefore the pope has zero authority over me. I answer to God himself and the local church to which I have submitted myself to wherein such things would be concerned.

As far as talking to "Christians" overseas, that's easier said than done even with the internet. I am well aware that the Bush administration has made some very (shakes head) stupid judgments. I voted for the man twice, but I feel now that I was mislead by him, and that he's been a pretty ineffectual leader on some issues that I feel are important.


:giveup:
You just don't get it. I didn't reference America (well I did, but I didn't single them out, I gave a comparison of other self professing Christians), Bush or the pope on the issue I presented. You've put everything else before Christianity. I suppose people see what they want to see. :dunno:

While the pope isn't an issue with me, it certainly seems to be a big one with you. I'm not part of the Roman church, but I certainly wouldn't deny them their Christian dignity.
I also voted for Bush, but political leaders aren't the issue.

If you can't face the reality that every Christians decisions effect all other Christians, Lord have mercy on you.

Bottom line, you wanted me to back up what I said. I did. Deal with it. That's the real world of Christianity wherever you live and whatever church your in, still in this world.

Romulus
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:37 PM
Rome is well known to be a city of 7 hills. The Christians did not explicitly write against Rome for their own protection, so Babylon may have been a "code name" for the imperial city. A possibe example of the use of Babylon in this way is found in Peter's greeting in 1 Peter 5:13...

"She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark."

Rome was well known as the city on/of seven hills but scripture is clear to point out that this is reference to the beast, not the harlot that sits on the beast. The harlot was guilty of adultery, only Israel had a relationship through Covenant or as Revelation points out adultery which is only in a marriage. If Rome is Babylon I.E. the harlot, it cannot be the beast as well.

Do you you see any other nation guilty of adultery which forces a Covenant relationship? :)

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:04 PM
:giveup:
You just don't get it. I didn't reference America (well I did, but I didn't single them out, I gave a comparison of other self professing Christians), Bush or the pope on the issue I presented. You've put everything else before Christianity. I suppose people see what they want to see. :dunno:

While the pope isn't an issue with me, it certainly seems to be a big one with you. I'm not part of the Roman church, but I certainly wouldn't deny them their Christian dignity.
I also voted for Bush, but political leaders aren't the issue.

If you can't face the reality that every Christians decisions effect all other Christians, Lord have mercy on you.

Bottom line, you wanted me to back up what I said. I did. Deal with it. That's the real world of Christianity wherever you live and whatever church your in, still in this world.

Yeah I understand what you are saying. The truth is I'm beginning to wonder whether we really have any power over what our government does abroad anyhow. It's a bit nuts if you ask me, and very inconsistent. If I misunderstood you I apologize, I was speaking about that one article, as to me it came across as if someone was coming at me with a sword (and what happens when people see a sword coming at them, well they defend themselves.) I'm sorry if that wasn't your intent. Is there biblical basis for this "christian decisions" affecting the other? Maybe when it talks about a little leaven in the lump? hrms.... Bottom line, I'm not a fan of ecumenicalism. I believe unit has to start with truth, not just simply a desire to be one big happy family. Perhaps we differ on that point too.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:24 PM
Yeah I understand what you are saying. The truth is I'm beginning to wonder whether we really have any power over what our government does abroad anyhow. It's a bit nuts if you ask me, and very inconsistent. If I misunderstood you I apologize, I was speaking about that one article, as to me it came across as if someone was coming at me with a sword (and what happens when people see a sword coming at them, well they defend themselves.) I'm sorry if that wasn't your intent. Is there biblical basis for this "christian decisions" affecting the other? Maybe when it talks about a little leaven in the lump? hrms.... Bottom line, I'm not a fan of ecumenicalism. I believe unit has to start with truth, not just simply a desire to be one big happy family. Perhaps we differ on that point too.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

Ecumenism has many faces. I am of eastern Christianity, we don't believe in false ecumenism, being both conciliar and autocephalus.

Whatever our differences may we continue in peace for our Lords' sake.:hug:

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:57 PM
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

Ecumenism has many faces. I am of eastern Christianity, we don't believe in false ecumenism, being both conciliar and autocephalus.

Whatever our differences may we continue in peace for our Lords' sake.:hug:


I am not familiar with those two words. ... its not a big thing. Its one thing to talk to folks who may have differing belief, its another to associate with "churches" you believe are in gross error. (that's where I worry about ecumenicalism) Its the organizations I draw a line against not necessarily the people. We all are prone to make mistakes so to speak. Anyhow... I seem to have gotten off topic so I'm just going to clamp my beak shut now LOL for to live is Christ and to die is gain.