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Firstfruits
Oct 15th 2008, 01:00 PM
According to the following scripture "Will Worship is when we choose to do that which is no longer required to be done.

Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Here it is in context

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Emanate
Oct 15th 2008, 01:19 PM
It is apparent to me that this passage refers to the doctines and commandments of men, something that was NEVER required to be done. It is similar to when Messiah said something about doing things to be seen by men.

Firstfruits
Oct 15th 2008, 02:57 PM
It is apparent to me that this passage refers to the doctines and commandments of men, something that was NEVER required to be done. It is similar to when Messiah said something about doing things to be seen by men.

Thanks Emanate,

Are all the things that Paul mentioned commandments and doctrines of men?

Firstfruits

Ta-An
Oct 15th 2008, 04:32 PM
The OT is full of commands to worship..... yet at a quick glance I only found two commands to worship in the NT.... maybe because the grounding for worship is ingrained in the OT :idea:

keck553
Oct 15th 2008, 04:39 PM
Thanks Emanate,

Are all the things that Paul mentioned commandments and doctrines of men?

Firstfruits

FF,

What do you think pleases God more? Doing things His way or doing things our way?

Firstfruits
Oct 15th 2008, 06:31 PM
FF,

What do you think pleases God more? Doing things His way or doing things our way?

According to what Paul has written God is not pleased with those that "Will Worship" Or self impose upon themselves that which is not required.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I hope that answers your question.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 15th 2008, 06:36 PM
The OT is full of commands to worship..... yet at a quick glance I only found two commands to worship in the NT.... maybe because the grounding for worship is ingrained in the OT :idea:

So are the commandments and ordinances in these scriptures from the OT?

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Thank you.

Firstfruits

Ta-An
Oct 15th 2008, 07:03 PM
So are the commandments and ordinances in these scriptures from the OT?
Emanate has answered you sufficiently ;)

Firstfruits
Oct 15th 2008, 07:35 PM
Emanate has answered you sufficiently ;)

So the following are commandments of men?

Lev 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.
Lev 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savor, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD.

Lev 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

1 Chron 23:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=13&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:

2 Chron 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=14&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

Are these from God or are they man made?

How about these.

Num 19:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=4&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

Lev 22:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

So again I ask, are the thing, Paul mentioned in the scriptures given man made or from God and the OT?

Thanks

Firstfruits

keck553
Oct 15th 2008, 08:45 PM
FF,

First we need a translation that is accurate to the Greek:

Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. - NASB

Let's look at the Greek word for your KJV's 'will worship' phrase:

eÍqelorhskiđa



voluntary, arbitrary worship
worship which one prescribes and devises for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of faith which ought to be directed to Christ
said of the misdirected zeal and the practice of ascetics
Does this help answer your question?

Many blessings, and thanks for sharing another Scripture for us to study!

Levin
Oct 15th 2008, 10:11 PM
So the following are commandments of men?

Lev 6:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar.
Lev 6:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savor, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD.

Lev 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

1 Chron 23:31 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=13&CHAP=23&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=31) And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:

2 Chron 2:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=14&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.

Are these from God or are they man made?

How about these.

Num 19:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=4&CHAP=19&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

Lev 22:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=3&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

So again I ask, are the thing, Paul mentioned in the scriptures given man made or from God and the OT?

Thanks

Firstfruits

A few thoughts on these commands and how Paul interprets them:

1)I think that we can say with certainty that the commands of I AM as found in the OT are not simply the words of men, for they were written by God to His people.

2) Paul is saying that we are no longer bound under the Mosaic law (let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.) These things were good and holy and they pointed towards Christ (these are a shadow of the things to come) However, the fullness of these laws is found in Christ (the substance belongs to Christ).

3)The teachings of men that Paul is referring to are not these commands themselves, but the commands of men (do not handle, do not taste, do not touch; Let no one pass judgment on you...with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath) to follow these commands; specifically, the teaching that these commands are necessary for salvation. He is trying to free the people of Colossae from the stringent requirements of the Mosaic Law because there is freedom in Christ.

In sum:

These teachings as found in the OT are God’s words to His covenant people under the Mosaic covenant. They became the words of men when men twisted them and insisted that men who are not under this covenant should follow the precepts and requirements of it.

In light of this I think that “Will Worship” (or self-made religion, thank you keck553) is a “worship” that is not prescribed by God but is rather an attempt by men to be holy. They forget or ignore that worship is about God and His requirements, not about the praise of men, and worship is not about legalistically holding to commands that were not intended for the church to obey.

In Christ,
Levin

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:46 AM
FF,

First we need a translation that is accurate to the Greek:

Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. - NASB

Let's look at the Greek word for your KJV's 'will worship' phrase:

eÍqelorhskiđa




voluntary, arbitrary worship
worship which one prescribes and devises for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of faith which ought to be directed to Christ
said of the misdirected zeal and the practice of ascetics
Does this help answer your question?

Many blessings, and thanks for sharing another Scripture for us to study!


Thank you Keck,

Yes that does help, and just to assure you, Paul has not said that those things are wrong but that those that do them are following self made religion, as per your explanation.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:50 AM
A few thoughts on these commands and how Paul interprets them:

1)I think that we can say with certainty that the commands of I AM as found in the OT are not simply the words of men, for they were written by God to His people.

2) Paul is saying that we are no longer bound under the Mosaic law (let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.) These things were good and holy and they pointed towards Christ (these are a shadow of the things to come) However, the fullness of these laws is found in Christ (the substance belongs to Christ).

3)The teachings of men that Paul is referring to are not these commands themselves, but the commands of men (do not handle, do not taste, do not touch; Let no one pass judgment on you...with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath) to follow these commands; specifically, the teaching that these commands are necessary for salvation. He is trying to free the people of Colossae from the stringent requirements of the Mosaic Law because there is freedom in Christ.

In sum:

These teachings as found in the OT are God’s words to His covenant people under the Mosaic covenant. They became the words of men when men twisted them and insisted that men who are not under this covenant should follow the precepts and requirements of it.

In light of this I think that “Will Worship” (or self-made religion, thank you keck553) is a “worship” that is not prescribed by God but is rather an attempt by men to be holy. They forget or ignore that worship is about God and His requirements, not about the praise of men, and worship is not about legalistically holding to commands that were not intended for the church to obey.

In Christ,
Levin

Thank you Levin,

I believe, along with what Keck has also said, we are in agreement.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Teke
Oct 16th 2008, 04:52 PM
will worship=self imposed=vain glory

Paul is speaking about false spirituality and follows up with true spirituality.

Church and our spirituality isn't the Waffle House (dinner and a show). :D

Mograce2U
Oct 16th 2008, 05:22 PM
Paul does say that there is a show of wisdom in doing those things. Will-worship is a desire to worship, to humble oneself and deny the lusts of the flesh thru these external rituals. The problem is they are not effective to actually accomplish anything in addition to what Christ has already done. That is his point that we have all we need provided for us by Christ, and there is nothing that we can add that will give us anything more; whether it is observance of the Jewish law or man's vain (Gnostic) ideas coming from his own imagination. Both of which are about carnal concerns for the body and neither of which has the power to actually subdue its lusts.

larry2
Oct 16th 2008, 06:15 PM
If used lawfully, the law had a purpose of bring Israel (Gentiles never had the law) to Christ. Galatians 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

Philippians 2:13. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," and this was shown not to be "will worship."

In Jesus' name

keck553
Oct 16th 2008, 06:39 PM
We're not discussing God's law, we are discussing mens rulings and traditions.

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 06:48 PM
I have seen a recurring pattern in these boards. We have an increased paranoia of the Old Testament. We are without understanding regarding the need and value of the Old Testament today. Our worship of God often reflects our understanding of him. We will never become wholehearted worshippers of him if we don't understand him. The only thing that matters is that you love him with all your heart. First and foremost. What happens along the way is God's part to rebuke you and your part to respond.

What you do of your own efforts in worship matters to God in my opinion. Worship is a choice, and like prayer, is agreeing with God regarding who he is and what he's going to do. There's nothing new under the sun regarding worship of God, he's seen it all. There's not a biblical prayer that comes from our mouths that he has not said and is still saying. If we want to see biblical worship, we need to see what heaven is like and do the same on the earth.

keck553
Oct 16th 2008, 06:50 PM
Many Christians I know have been or are in churches (mainly Charismatic churches) that either forbid or frown upon reading the 'Old Testanment.'
.

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 06:52 PM
will worship=self imposed=vain glory

Paul is speaking about false spirituality and follows up with true spirituality.

Church and our spirituality isn't the Waffle House (dinner and a show). :D

According to Paul those that "Will Worship" are living as though the were not dead with Christ, and as though they were still living in the world.

Col 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 06:55 PM
Many Christians I know have been or are in churches (mainly Charismatic churches) that either forbid or frown upon reading the 'Old Testanment.'
.

i know... i've seen that... i was raised in a Baptist church and we rarely read from the OT except Psalms and Proverbs...

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:02 PM
I have seen a recurring pattern in these boards. We have an increased paranoia of the Old Testament. We are without understanding regarding the need and value of the Old Testament today. Our worship of God often reflects our understanding of him. We will never become wholehearted worshippers of him if we don't understand him. The only thing that matters is that you love him with all your heart. First and foremost. What happens along the way is God's part to rebuke you and your part to respond.

What you do of your own efforts in worship matters to God in my opinion. Worship is a choice, and like prayer, is agreeing with God regarding who he is and what he's going to do. There's nothing new under the sun regarding worship of God, he's seen it all. There's not a biblical prayer that comes from our mouths that he has not said and is still saying. If we want to see biblical worship, we need to see what heaven is like and do the same on the earth.

Please remember that Paul was talking about "self imposed religion" "Will Worship".

According to what Paul has said he was concerned just that "Will worship".

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:06 PM
Many Christians I know have been or are in churches (mainly Charismatic churches) that either forbid or frown upon reading the 'Old Testanment.'
.

I am sure you will agree that that is not what Paul was speaking of with regards to what he said regarding "will Worship"

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:10 PM
We're not discussing God's law, we are discussing mens rulings and traditions.

Thanks Keck,

We must remember that the thread is about "Will Worship"

Firstfruits

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 07:12 PM
Please remember that Paul was talking about "self imposed religion" "Will Worship".

According to what Paul has said he was concerned just that "Will worship".

Col 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

I say whatever a Christian does under personal conviction is none of your or my business... Remember the verses that talk about being a stumbling block and refraining and setting aside your liberty for the sake of your brother... that's the bigger law... who are you to judge one's life in Christ? and who am I to think i can do the same? Whatever a person 'wills' to do as an act of consecration to God is none of our concern.... it's judging and it's self righteous and prideful on our parts to say that their acts of consecration are wrong.....

to give you an example... there are so many Christians that say that it's wrong and unbiblical to wear a hat in church... but you know what, i see nothing wrong about that... it's just tradition, but because that was brought up to me, I set aside my liberty, not my belief... So i don't wear a hat to church for the sake of my brother...

There's a fine line between what you're talking about and what i'm talking about... do the 'will worshippers' force their customs on you? if they do not, then rejoice and call them brother... where it gets prickly and ugly is when someone says you have to do these things to be called a child of God...

Mograce2U
Oct 16th 2008, 07:16 PM
We're not discussing God's law, we are discussing mens rulings and traditions.You mean because of the phrase Paul used in 2:22 about them being after the commandments and doctrines of men? Who taught these ordinances from God to men? Was it not the priesthood, scribes & pharisees? Paul doesn't say anything about those teachings being corrupted, but he does point out which ones he means. He mentions circumcision, holy days & sabbaths. And he then talks about them as not being able to add anything to what we have in Christ. Which is not what the Judaizers believed who thought it was necessary to continue to do them. Our faith is not anchored in these external things that Israel was required to do. That men desire to appear religious is what Paul is addressing. The inner man born by faith in Chirst is not affected nor improved by any of these external things.

Edit:
And the touch not, taste not, handle not laws were part of the levitical laws for holiness, concerning things which perish with the using - like food. These are not things given to us for our consecration.

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:31 PM
You mean because of the phrase Paul used in 2:22 about them being after the commandments and doctrines of men? Who taught these ordinances from God to men? Was it not the priesthood, scribes & pharisees? Paul doesn't say anything about those teachings being corrupted, but he does point out which ones he means. He mentions circumcision, holy days & sabbaths. And he then talks about them as not being able to add anything to what we have in Christ. Which is not what the Judaizers believed who thought it was necessary to continue to do them. Our faith is not anchored in these external things that Israel was required to do. That men desire to appear religious is what Paul is addressing. The inner man born by faith in Chirst is not affected nor improved by any of these external things.

That is exactly what Paul said.

Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

That is why he said let no man judge you, regarding those things he mentioned.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 07:34 PM
That is exactly what Paul said.

Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

That is why he said let no man judge you, regarding those things he mentioned.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

but there's a fine line between those who do that to satisfy themselves to make themselves seem more righteous... you will know them by their fruits... do they judge someone because they don't adopt the same practices as they? That's more will worship than just doing something for a season out of consecration... we are different people and God will relate to us differently regarding relationship and giving of ourselves... that's not will worship, that's consecration... will worship is doing something and thinking that by doing that you earn a greater level of salvation which will show itself in due time...

Teke
Oct 16th 2008, 07:35 PM
According to Paul those that "Will Worship" are living as though the were not dead with Christ, and as though they were still living in the world.

Col 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

For perspective here's the longer version. :)

Looking at 2:16-23. Here Paul speaks against false worship (v 17), false mysticism (v 18,19) and false asceticism (v 20-23). He says "let no one judge you" (v 16) and do not submit to "the basic principles of the world" (v20 see v8). For man does not live by "shadow", the law, but by "the substance" (lit. body) which produces the shadow (v17), which is the body of Christ, the Church. Man-centered superstitious ritualism is deadly. The fulfilling liturgy is that of the body of Christ, culminating in the Eucharist.

Mystical experiences are not wrong in themselves, but we must beware of deception, pride, schism and a mind controlled by passions and the body. Ascetic practices- prayer, fasting, almsgiving- are taught by God (Matt. 6), but there are enemies who lie along that path as well. Submitting to created realities, heeding human traditions, the deception of feeding the flesh when you think that you are denying it, is a false asceticism and is condemned as pride.

Chapter 3 goes on with Paul using baptism as his backdrop ("if you were raised with Christ", IOW remember your baptism), Paul counters the practices of the heretics in Colosse with the practices of the apostolic church, true mysticism (baptism 3:1-4), true asceticism (baptized Christians becoming in practice what we are already in spirit 3:5-14) and true liturgical experience (divine experience of unity and holiness of the church, 3:15-17, which is the word of Christ meaning scripture, hymns and spiritual songs and the Eucharist giving thanks to God)

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:36 PM
I say whatever a Christian does under personal conviction is none of your or my business... Remember the verses that talk about being a stumbling block and refraining and setting aside your liberty for the sake of your brother... that's the bigger law... who are you to judge one's life in Christ? and who am I to think i can do the same? Whatever a person 'wills' to do as an act of consecration to God is none of our concern.... it's judging and it's self righteous and prideful on our parts to say that their acts of consecration are wrong.....

to give you an example... there are so many Christians that say that it's wrong and unbiblical to wear a hat in church... but you know what, i see nothing wrong about that... it's just tradition, but because that was brought up to me, I set aside my liberty, not my belief... So i don't wear a hat to church for the sake of my brother...

There's a fine line between what you're talking about and what i'm talking about... do the 'will worshippers' force their customs on you? if they do not, then rejoice and call them brother... where it gets prickly and ugly is when someone says you have to do these things to be called a child of God...

With regards to what Paul said, do you understand why Paul said the following concerning "will Worship".

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Teke
Oct 16th 2008, 07:41 PM
will worship is doing something and thinking that by doing that you earn a greater level of salvation which will show itself in due time...


Great point. Meaning you "think" you have an advantage by the doing. We are to do the will of God irregardless of what we "think". Because we do not know what God is doing with us unless He makes it known to us.

I think we can all relate to this somewhat. On Sundays when we lie in bed and think, I don't really feel like attending worship today(thinking, I can just lay here and pray just as well), but our hearts tell us to go. What do we listen to?

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 07:43 PM
With regards to what Paul said, do you understand why Paul said the following concerning "will Worship".

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

God bless you.

Firstfruits


yeah, because he knew that some people would try to consecrate themselves to God out of sincerity and it would develop into pride and resentment toward those who didn't do the same... so what comes out of pride, judgment toward others... It's a matter of personal freedom, if a person wants to observe the Jewish holy days he wouldn't be chastised by the church for choosing to do so... because it's a choice on his part... and he would have no right to judge the church for not doing what he is doing... it's a personal choice that he should have no shame over... and it's not the church's responsibility to tell him what not to touch, taste and handle, for there is no such law over those things now

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 07:45 PM
Great point. Meaning you "think" you have an advantage by the doing. We are to do the will of God irregardless of what we "think". Because we do not know what God is doing with us unless He makes it known to us.

I think we can all relate to this somewhat. On Sundays when we lie in bed and think, I don't really feel like attending worship today(thinking, I can just lay here and pray just as well), but our hearts tell us to go. What do we listen to?

not forsaking the gathering of ourselves... this is why i have such little patience with those who try to throw sabbath laws in my face... Jesus said where not when two or three gather in my name i am there with them... and the early church met daily... which is I believe should be the case today...

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 07:52 PM
but there's a fine line between those who do that to satisfy themselves to make themselves seem more righteous... you will know them by their fruits... do they judge someone because they don't adopt the same practices as they? That's more will worship than just doing something for a season out of consecration... we are different people and God will relate to us differently regarding relationship and giving of ourselves... that's not will worship, that's consecration... will worship is doing something and thinking that by doing that you earn a greater level of salvation which will show itself in due time...

Concerning judgment we are taught the following.


1 Cor 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Cor 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1 Cor 6:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

So we have to put judgment into perspective.

Remember, we judge between that which is right and that which is wrong.

God bless you

Firstfruits

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 07:56 PM
Concerning judgment we are taught the following.


1 Cor 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Cor 6:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1 Cor 6:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

So we have to put judgment into perspective.

Remember, we judge between that which is right and that which is wrong.

God bless you

Firstfruits

but we don't judge someone's customs or lifestyle based on our own either... if they don't force their customs or lifestyle or boast of their lifestyle as if they're more righteous than you or I, then I see absolutely no problem with it... Which is why I find nothing wrong with a Christian Jewish man who still keeps kosher and the holy days... as long as he doesn't boast of it as if he's more righteous than I nor judges me because i don't keep his traditions, I am absolutely cool with it...

Teke
Oct 16th 2008, 08:00 PM
not forsaking the gathering of ourselves... this is why i have such little patience with those who try to throw sabbath laws in my face... Jesus said where not when two or three gather in my name i am there with them... and the early church met daily... which is I believe should be the case today...

Yes, but like you said in your post before this one, it is a matter of individual conscience. And your right, that those as you describe "try to throw sabbath laws in my face", shouldn't make you feel guilty. You have your own conscience to deal with and not theirs. As well as the authority of your church which you've placed yourself under to be obedient/submit to.
As they say, you can't please all the people all the time. Nor should we try to.

My own church would meet daily (in following hours of prayer) if the people would be there, but they can't. And this is understandable to the church. My church has a very busy schedule of prayer and worship that can be very trying for anyone. Observing ONE day, such as Sabbath, would be a piece of cake compared to such a schedule. :lol:
God knows our weaknesses and so we do what we can and ask Him to forgive us for what we can't (clear conscience).

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 08:04 PM
Yes, but like you said in your post before this one, it is a matter of individual conscience. And your right, that those as you describe "try to throw sabbath laws in my face", shouldn't make you feel guilty. You have your own conscience to deal with and not theirs. As well as the authority of your church which you've placed yourself under to be obedient/submit to.
As they say, you can't please all the people all the time. Nor should we try to.

My own church would meet daily (in following hours of prayer) if the people would be there, but they can't. And this is understandable to the church. My church has a very busy schedule of prayer and worship that can be very trying for anyone. Observing ONE day, such as Sabbath, would be a piece of cake compared to such a schedule. :lol:
God knows our weaknesses and so we do what we can and ask Him to forgive us for what we can't (clear conscience).

so true my friend... I am as righteous as Christ as long as I accept it... and wage war against my sin

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 08:20 PM
but we don't judge someone's customs or lifestyle based on our own either... if they don't force their customs or lifestyle or boast of their lifestyle as if they're more righteous than you or I, then I see absolutely no problem with it... Which is why I find nothing wrong with a Christian Jewish man who still keeps kosher and the holy days... as long as he doesn't boast of it as if he's more righteous than I nor judges me because i don't keep his traditions, I am absolutely cool with it...

Again this is what Paul said we should not judge; Col 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

So unless what is being done contradicts the law of Christ, which is to love one another then there should be no problem according to the Gospel.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

timmyb
Oct 16th 2008, 08:38 PM
Again this is what Paul said we should not judge; Col 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

So unless what is being done contradicts the law of Christ, which is to love one another then there should be no problem according to the Gospel.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

you have my position figured out my friend

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 08:57 PM
you have my position figured out my friend

God bless you!

Maybe what Paul said in the following will help.

Col 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

And then put that with this; Col 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

SIG
Oct 16th 2008, 09:00 PM
My (simple) summation of what Paul is saying:

When we have a vital relationship with Christ, He is gradually (for me)transforming us from the inside out, to conform with His nature. This will, little by little, convert our fleshly lust to Kingdom priorities.

When we try to effect this change from the outside in, either through pressure from others or by self-imposed disciplines, we fail. The change must come from inside, at a much deeper level.

Firstfruits
Oct 16th 2008, 09:06 PM
My (simple) summation of what Paul is saying:

When we have a vital relationship with Christ, He is gradually (for me)transforming us from the inside out, to conform with His nature. This will, little by little, convert our fleshly lust to Kingdom priorities.

When we try to effect this change from the outside in, either through pressure from others or by self-imposed disciplines, we fail. The change must come from inside, at a much deeper level.

Thank you SIG,

God surely works on the heart.

God bless you.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 17th 2008, 08:58 AM
It is apparent to me that this passage refers to the doctines and commandments of men, something that was NEVER required to be done. It is similar to when Messiah said something about doing things to be seen by men.

Does that also apply to the following?

Gal 4:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Thank you.

Firstfruits