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Partaker of Christ
Oct 16th 2008, 12:41 AM
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Isn't a witness, someone who has seen and heard first hand, and can give evidence.

Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we [+ 500 disciples] all are witnesses.

1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

OK, this may be way far out, but could it be possible that these two witnesses, are the same two men in white apparel [Act 1:10]

They seem to have followed Christ through out all time. Perhaps they have to drink the same cup of death.

Dani H
Oct 16th 2008, 12:46 AM
The two witnesses, to my understanding, are the Spirit and the Bride ... Jesus and His Church. :)

jponb
Oct 16th 2008, 01:51 AM
Most people believe that these two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. These two have never died. Also thrown into possibility is Moses due to the signs and powers they will possess. One of my own consideration is the Apostle John. John chapter 21 closed with a what-if question by Jesus. What if he shall remain until I come again, what's it to you? Also John was told that he had to testify of the things he saw again.. What do you think?

Dani H
Oct 16th 2008, 02:07 AM
Most people believe that these two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. These two have never died. Also thrown into possibility is Moses due to the signs and powers they will possess. One of my own consideration is the Apostle John. John chapter 21 closed with a what-if question by Jesus. What if he shall remain until I come again, what's it to you? Also John was told that he had to testify of the things he saw again.. What do you think?

Submitting these for your consideration:

Zechariah 4:11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” 12 And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?” 13 Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”


Jeremiah 25:10
Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp.

Revelation 18:23
The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Revelation 22:16 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 And [B]the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."

Gods Child
Oct 16th 2008, 02:22 AM
OK, this may be way far out, but could it be possible that these two witnesses, are the same two men in white apparel [Act 1:10]

They seem to have followed Christ through out all time. Perhaps they have to drink the same cup of death.

It is said that the two witnesses could be Enoch, Elijah, or Moses.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrew 9:27 shows us that a person has to die to be part of the judgment.
Judgment could mean either reward or punishment. Since those above did not die, it is possible they need to come back to die in the flesh to receive the judgment of reward.

jponb
Oct 16th 2008, 02:49 AM
The two witnesses, to my understanding, are the Spirit and the Bride ... Jesus and His Church. :)

Can you explain this for me Dani per your beliefs?

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

How does this apply to Jesus?

Dani H
Oct 16th 2008, 03:33 AM
Can you explain this for me Dani per your beliefs?

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

How does this apply to Jesus?

It's a concept that I've only been considering lately, as before, I also thought of two individual flesh-and-blood persons, such as Elijah and Enoch, and so forth, as others have been pointing out (which does make sense in a way).

Then I had a discussion with a fellow believer, and, in that, considering who Revelation is about (Jesus Christ), and the overall theme of the Bible (God and His people, Jesus and His Church), and how Revelation starts (Jesus appearing to the 7 churches) and ends (the New Jerusalem = the Church, and the call of the Spirit and the Bride saying "Come") ... it turned my thinking topsy-turvy and I'm seeing Revelation with a set of new eyes. And in light of the rest of Scripture, it makes a lot more sense to me than so many other interpretations.

Consider the history of the Church and how She has really been treated and regarded by the world, the overt religious systems, and the powers that be ... in the "dark ages" for example, the Church of Jesus Christ was, for all intents and purposes, dead ... the "God is dead" movement and the Enlightenment and those today who would consider Christianity dead for all intents and purposes, and are looking forward with glee to her complete extinction ... not the outward church, but the true Church of Jesus Christ ... how sinners have been tormented by Spirit-filled preaching and have persecuted and sought to destroy the Church throughout the ages because they couldn't stand to hear about their sins ... etc ... etc ... "Egypt" being referred to many times in Scripture as a type of the world system ... and so forth.

So, from where I sit, this is just as valid a consideration as, say, Enoch and Elijah or other such suggestions would be.

Again, this is as I understand and think about it, not to knock anyone else's views.

:)

jponb
Oct 16th 2008, 04:18 AM
I just like exploring other's ideas as well.. Although we theorize about who it might be, let us not forget what we learned from John the Baptist. Many was expecting Elijah; but John had the anointing of Elijah. These two witnesses could simply have the anointing of Elijah or Moses and not be anyone from before. Thanks so much for responding.:pp

Richard H
Oct 16th 2008, 05:17 AM
Moses died before reaching the promised land.
Elijah was taken up to Heaven, but then somehow John was the Elijah and then was beheaded.
"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
Matthew 11:14

The two witnesses will be killed.
But...
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Hebrews 9:27
(Someone here – I can’t remember who – reminded me of this.)
Both have Moses and Elijah already died once, so neither will be the two witnesses.

I think the two men in white apparel were angels, but witnesses nevertheless - only for the heavenly record - not for mankind.
I don't think they can be killed - except in the lake of fire.

Dani H
Oct 16th 2008, 06:17 AM
Also, as far how the killing of the witnesses applies to Jesus, consider this:

Matthew 25:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=40&version=50&context=verse)
And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

And this:

1 Corinthians 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Just more food for thought ... because I really do believe that Jesus did mean exactly what He said. :)

Partaker of Christ
Oct 16th 2008, 02:01 PM
Also, as far how the killing of the witnesses applies to Jesus, consider this:

Matthew 25:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=40&version=50&context=verse)
And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

And this:

1 Corinthians 6:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=6&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Just more food for thought ... because I really do believe that Jesus did mean exactly what He said. :)

I very much agree!

and this:

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 16th 2008, 02:12 PM
Moses died before reaching the promised land.
Elijah was taken up to Heaven, but then somehow John was the Elijah and then was beheaded.
"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
Matthew 11:14

The two witnesses will be killed.
But...
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Hebrews 9:27
(Someone here – I can’t remember who – reminded me of this.)
Both have Moses and Elijah already died once, so neither will be the two witnesses.

I think the two men in white apparel were angels, but witnesses nevertheless - only for the heavenly record - not for mankind.
I don't think they can be killed - except in the lake of fire.

Hi Richard!

The only problem that I may have with this is; 'die once'

There are (or seem to be) exceptions to the rule.

Lazarus, and 'we who are alive and remain'

Richard H
Oct 16th 2008, 02:44 PM
Hi Richard!

The only problem that I may have with this is; 'die once'

There are (or seem to be) exceptions to the rule.

Lazarus, and 'we who are alive and remain'
Hi Partaker.
Yup. It 'might' be a problem, but see my answer to Chad:
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1827268#post1827268

:)
Richard

John146
Oct 16th 2008, 02:50 PM
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Isn't a witness, someone who has seen and heard first hand, and can give evidence.

Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we [+ 500 disciples] all are witnesses.

1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

OK, this may be way far out, but could it be possible that these two witnesses, are the same two men in white apparel [Act 1:10]

They seem to have followed Christ through out all time. Perhaps they have to drink the same cup of death.Those two "men" were angels. Notice that they were dressed in white apparel. That is what hints at them being angels.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

Here, we see angels being referred to as "two men". The word used for "men" there can just mean "male". Any angels mentioned in scripture always had male names.

We are given clues as to the identity of the two witnesses. They are called candlesticks. In Rev 1:20, candlesticks symbolized churches. I believe the two witnesses symbolize the witnessing church led by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Richard H
Oct 16th 2008, 02:57 PM
There are (or seem to be) exceptions to the rule.

Lazarus, and 'we who are alive and remain'
:)
'we who are alive and remain'
(the "rapture" after the first resurrection - 1 Thes 4:16,17)
are they who get to pass directly from life into everlasting life - without having to taste death.
'Sort of an exception, but God would not kill us - at that time, just so He can raise us.
'The time limit is up - sort of deal. ;)

Richard

Richard H
Oct 16th 2008, 03:23 PM
Hi Firebird,
At first I was confused, but then I see that you aren't a Christian.

A newbie nevertheless, Welcome to the board. :)

Richard

Dani H
Oct 16th 2008, 03:37 PM
Were are given clues as to the identity of the two witnesses. They are called candlesticks. In Rev 1:20, candlesticks symbolized churches. I believe the two witnesses symbolize the witnessing church led by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I really think so too. I don't think they are two distinct individuals, but rather a people of God, collectively.

John146
Oct 16th 2008, 04:00 PM
Yes, I really think so too. I don't think they are two distinct individuals, but rather a people of God, collectively.It makes the most sense to me. I believe what is described in Rev 11:11-12 describes the resurrection of the dead in Christ who rise first (before those who are alive and remain) to meet the Lord in the air when He returns (1 Thess 4:13-17).

The witnesses are seen by people all over the world. That fact only makes sense to me if the witnesses can be found all over the world, which is the case if it's referring to the church.

Richard H
Oct 16th 2008, 04:23 PM
Revelation certainly has symbols, but I also think in a way it is also quite literal.
‘Just not going for this: metaphorical “witness” thing.

I think that Jesus will come back in the flesh and not symbolically.
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?
This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
Acts 1:9-11

I also think the two witnesses will be actual men, and the antichrist will actually kill them around the time of the AofD.
Certainly, there is symbolism involved: as in the olive tress and the candlesticks,
but it is the olive trees and candlesticks which are symbolic.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Revelation 11:3-13

My :2cents:
Richard

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 16th 2008, 11:47 PM
OK, this may be way far out, but could it be possible that these two witnesses, are the same two men in white apparel [Act 1:10]

They seem to have followed Christ through out all time. Perhaps they have to drink the same cup of death.

Hello Partaker,

According to what I have read, this 2 witnesses are the Old Testament and the New Testament which were prohibited/censored in the Dark ages whilst the pope ruled.

And was ended by the reformation. yay!!

Be good

Dani H
Oct 17th 2008, 01:53 AM
To further the thought on the two witnesses:

1. You never see them going anywhere separate. It is the two of them combined that work miracles and do all these wonders.
2. They are clothed in sackcloth, which represents repentance and mourning over sin.
3. The two of them together can be harmed by no "normal" man (if anyone wants to harm them ...).
4. It is only the beast from the pit that overcomes them.

I still maintain they are the Spirit and the Bride.

Why?

The work of the Holy Spirit can only be "killed" by people under the influence of the antichrist spirit (which is the "beast" of Revelation) as it invades their minds and shuts them off from knowing the truth of God. Anti-Christ is against Christ, against who Jesus is, and there is no other Way to the Father. This is why his number is the number of a man, as these lies are being spread by people whose minds have been invaded by them, rendering the power and truth of God ineffective, and therefore dead.
There is no other than the Holy Spirit who can convict the world of sin. He alone can do it, and He can only do it through the Bride, as He never does anything arbitrarily separate from the ones who are one spirit with Him, joined to the Lord. And without Him, we can do nothing.
The Bride as a whole cannot be harmed by mere mortal man. She will continue to exist, and preach, and testify of her Savior until it is her time to leave. And the Word of God, that "fire shut up in our bones" will always devour the enemies of God (which are the spiritual forces behind people). The Bride is the one baptized "with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
I believe that "days of their prophecy" relates to the entire Gospel age, as the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Etc.

So the more I think about it ... and I also don't believe that the book of Revelation ought to necessarily be interpreted as a chronologic sequence of physical events, but rather spiritual truth.

Again, just my :2cents:

Partaker of Christ
Oct 17th 2008, 08:40 PM
It makes the most sense to me. I believe what is described in Rev 11:11-12 describes the resurrection of the dead in Christ who rise first (before those who are alive and remain) to meet the Lord in the air when He returns (1 Thess 4:13-17).

The witnesses are seen by people all over the world. That fact only makes sense to me if the witnesses can be found all over the world, which is the case if it's referring to the church.

Thanks John146!

I think I really struggle with that theory.

a) We have to look at what it is to be a 'witness' (someone who was there, and saw with their own eyes, and heard with their own ears) Just as the twelve, + 500 and Paul, saw with their own eyes the risen Christ.

b) When they die, the Spirit enters them

John146
Oct 20th 2008, 04:55 PM
Thanks John146!

I think I really struggle with that theory.

a) We have to look at what it is to be a 'witness' (someone who was there, and saw with their own eyes, and heard with their own ears) Just as the twelve, + 500 and Paul, saw with their own eyes the risen Christ. We don't have to have been there back then in order to be a witness for Christ.


b) When they die, the Spirit enters themI don't believe that it says that. What version are you getting that from?

Rev 11 (KJV)
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 11 (NASB)

11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
12And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here " Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

I believe this is just referring to when the bodies of the dead in Christ are changed and given life by being changed from mortal to immortal.

Mograce2U
Oct 20th 2008, 05:43 PM
I think if we keep in mind that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10) - we can tie all the things together which speak of 2 witnesses who testify of Him. Let's see what we already know:

We know the Law and the Prophets predicted all the things that Christ would fulfill:

(Mat 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We also know Moses & Elijah are representing both of these by the things the 2 witnesses do. (Rev 11:6)

We know Moses predicted that another Prophet like him would come who the people would be required to hear (Deut 18:15)

We know John the Baptist is the other one like Elijah that Israel was expecting who would prepare the way of the Lord (Mal 4:5); whom Jesus said fulfilled this prophecy (Mat 11:14)

We know that Isaiah said that the word of the Lord would not return to Him void until it had accomplished all that He sent it to do. (Isa 55:11)

Jesus proved He was Messiah by the the 2 witnesses that the Father gave Him - His word and His works. (John 5:31+)

Zech 4 is where we find the detail about the 2 olive trees and 2 candlesticks which point to angels (Gabriel & Michael) filling the OT church with the oil from heaven which concern the Kingship and Priesthood of Christ. Which picture we now see fulfilled in the Holy Spirit's ministry to the Body of Christ.

So now all we need to do is see what word of God is being fulfilled by a particular work of God in the city where the Lord was crucified that had become like Sodom and Egypt? A word of judgment which those who crucified the Lord thought they had averted from themselves, but which work when it was complete, would glorify the Lord and show the world whom the Lord really approved? And though they (notice John begins his measuring at the inner sanctuary - with the priesthood - Ezek 9:6) thought they had put this word against them to death, that word in fact returned to the One who gave it when it rose up in judgment upon that wicked city. And the old covenant with its gifts and temple returned to the Lord as well, and true Jerusalem was lifted up into the heavenlies to a place where it could be safely inhabited (Zech 14:10:11).

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 03:03 PM
Robin,

So you are saying the two witnesses are the Law and the Prophets? Or something else? I can't quite tell from your post. How does your theory fit with the following text:

Rev 11
7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Mograce2U
Oct 21st 2008, 04:33 PM
Well Eric, I guess if there is one thing I am certain of in that passage it is that it is not a literal physical understanding we need to have for this picture we are being given. A picture which is painted with all these allusions to OT texts. Whereas over in Rev 20 when it talks about the first resurrection, I do see that as literally happening in the spiritual realm.

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 05:55 PM
Well Eric, I guess if there is one thing I am certain of in that passage it is that it is not a literal physical understanding we need to have for this picture we are being given. A picture which is painted with all these allusions to OT texts. Whereas over in Rev 20 when it talks about the first resurrection, I do see that as literally happening in the spiritual realm.Not to badger you or anything, but I thought my questions were pretty straightforward. I'll try again. What exactly do you believe is the identity of the two witnesses of Revelation 11?

Mograce2U
Oct 21st 2008, 06:06 PM
Not to badger you or anything, but I thought my questions were pretty straightforward. I'll try again. What exactly do you believe is the identity of the two witnesses of Revelation 11?The testimony of Jesus.

ananias
Oct 21st 2008, 06:28 PM
The two witnesses, to my understanding, are the Spirit and the Bride ... Jesus and His Church. :)

me too.

ananias

ananias
Oct 21st 2008, 06:31 PM
Submitting these for your consideration:

Zechariah 4:11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” 12 And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?” 13 Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”


Jeremiah 25:10
Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp.

Revelation 18:23
The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Revelation 22:16 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” 17 And [B]the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."

"... the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev.19: 10c)

"And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev.11: 3)

ananias
Oct 21st 2008, 07:18 PM
To further the thought on the two witnesses:

1. You never see them going anywhere separate. It is the two of them combined that work miracles and do all these wonders.
2. They are clothed in sackcloth, which represents repentance and mourning over sin.
3. The two of them together can be harmed by no "normal" man (if anyone wants to harm them ...).
4. It is only the beast from the pit that overcomes them.

I still maintain they are the Spirit and the Bride.

Why?

The work of the Holy Spirit can only be "killed" by people under the influence of the antichrist spirit (which is the "beast" of Revelation) as it invades their minds and shuts them off from knowing the truth of God. Anti-Christ is against Christ, against who Jesus is, and there is no other Way to the Father. This is why his number is the number of a man, as these lies are being spread by people whose minds have been invaded by them, rendering the power and truth of God ineffective, and therefore dead.
There is no other than the Holy Spirit who can convict the world of sin. He alone can do it, and He can only do it through the Bride, as He never does anything arbitrarily separate from the ones who are one spirit with Him, joined to the Lord. And without Him, we can do nothing.
The Bride as a whole cannot be harmed by mere mortal man. She will continue to exist, and preach, and testify of her Savior until it is her time to leave. And the Word of God, that "fire shut up in our bones" will always devour the enemies of God (which are the spiritual forces behind people). The Bride is the one baptized "with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
I believe that "days of their prophecy" relates to the entire Gospel age, as the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Etc.

So the more I think about it ... and I also don't believe that the book of Revelation ought to necessarily be interpreted as a chronologic sequence of physical events, but rather spiritual truth.

Again, just my :2cents:

I agree with DaniHansen's :2cents:

1 Fig tree <<< symbol for Israel
2 Olive tree << symbol for Israel
3 Vine <<< symbol for Israel
4 Lampstands/candlesticks << symbol for the church
5 Olive Oil << symbol for the Holy Spirit

Rom.11: 1-5 <<< believing remnant of Israel
Rom.11: 17 <<< Gentiles grafted in among them (together they form the Church).

The following verse is prophetic of Jesus Christ building His Temple after HE HIMSELF laid its foundation:

“The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.” (Zech.4: 9-10).

Zerubbabel, the governor, had laid the foundation of the (second) temple, and he was being assisted in its building by Joshua, the High Priest.

In Zechariah 4: 6, Zechariah is told that the temple would be built “Not by might, nor by power, but by the spirit of the LORD of hosts.”

Jesus is both King and High Priest of Israel.

In this passage, Zerubbabel and Joshua (Biblical types of Jesus) are symbolized by TWO OLIVE TREES; and Zechariah sees these two olive trees on either side of A LAMP-STAND with seven lamps, supplying oil (a symbol of the Holy Spirit) to the lamp-stand.

The Olive tree is one of the three Biblical symbols for Israel (the Fig- tree, the Olive-tree and the Vine – see also Rom.11: 17).

The seven-branched lamp-stand with seven lamps which stood in the Old Covenant temple is a Biblical type of the Church; and the seven lamp-stands (or candlesticks) in the Apocalypse symbolize the seven churches (plural) of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rev.1: 20).

In Zechariah 4: 14, Zechariah is told that the TWO OLIVE TREES and the LAMP-STAND with seven lamps represent “THE TWO ANOINTED ONES, THAT STAND BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH.”

In Revelation 11: 4, we are told that THE TWO WITNESSES of Jesus are “THE TWO OLIVE TREES AND THE TWO LAMPSTANDS STANDING BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH.”

1 They are the witnesses of Jesus, and their power is from Jesus.

“One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sins. At the mouth of TWO WITNESSES, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be made sure.” (Deu.19:15).

The apostle Paul taught that the Gentiles who believe in and follow Jesus are grafted into Israel (“the Olive tree”) AMONG the remnant of the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who also believe in and follow Jesus (Romans 11: 1-5, 17).

God said to Israel:

“You are My witnesses, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me...I, I am the LORD; and there is none to save besides Me.
I have declared, and have saved, and I have shown, when there was no strange god among you; therefore you are My witnesses, says the LORD, that I am God.
Yea, before the day was, I am He; and no one delivers out of My hand; I will work, and who will reverse it?” (Isa.43: 1-13).

In the above verses (Isa.43: 10-13), God is saying that His witnesses are witnesses to the fact that He is God because of God's work of salvation among them – it has nothing to do with our works – but it has everything to do with the works of God – God's witnesses are His witnesses by virtue of God's saving work in them:

“For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” Eph.2: 8-10).

In Rev.19: 10c we read that “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”.

In Rev.11: 3a Jesus says, “And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy...”

It is “Not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit of the LORD of hosts” (Zech.4: 6) that “the two witnesses” prophesy.

It follows that “the fire” that proceeds from the mouth (singular) of “the two witnesses” of Jesus Christ (Rev.11: 5) is the Spirit of the LORD of hosts – THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, against Whom the arguments of evolutionists, atheists, agnostics, and the arguments of all who would oppose the Word of God – cannot stand.

The pouring out of the Holy Spirit is symbolized as “waters from heaven” in Biblical scripture (in Hebrew this is “mayim mi shamayim” – “waters from heaven”); and the Holy Spirit IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

In 1Kings 8: 35-36 we read,

“When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them: Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way wherein they should walk, and give rain upon thy land, which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance.” (1Kings 8: 35-36)

“The two witnesses” have authority to shut up the heaven, that it may not rain in the days of their prophecy.” (Rev.11: 6).

In Rev.16: 4-6 (the third bowl of God's WRATH) we read,

“And the third angel poured out his vial ON THE RIVERS AND FOUNTAINS OF WATERS, AND THEY BECAME BLOOD. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Righteous is the Lord, who is, and was, and who will be, because You have judged these things, SINCE THEY HAVE POURED OUT THE BLOOD OF THE SAINTS AND PROPHETS; and You gave them blood to drink, for they were deserving.” (Rev.16: 4-6).

“The two witnesses” of Jesus have authority over waters to turn them to blood (Rev.11: 6b).

“...and they (the two witnesses of Jesus) have authority to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.” (Rev.11: 6c).

Any period of general aspostasy from sound Christian doctrine among Christians is a period of (SPIRITUAL) plague.

“... And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them.” (Rev.11: 7).

When the king of Babylon had erected his golden image and commanded that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship it would be cast into “the burning, fiery, furnace”, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were thrown into the furnace for refusing to bow down and worship before it.
“One like the Son of God” was with them in the midst of the furnace, and after Nebuchadnezzar saw that they had remained unharmed by the flames, he said, “Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, you servants of the Most High God, COME OUT AND COME HERE...” (Dan.3: 26).

“And they (the “two witnesses” of Jesus who had been martyred by the beast ascending from the bottomless pit) heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, COME UP HERE. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.” (Rev.11: 12).

ananias

violet
Oct 21st 2008, 07:50 PM
Has anyone considered that the two witnesses of God are the second and third person of the Holy Trinity? The Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and the Wind - both coming from the Father to show us the way to Him.

clothed in sackcloth = appearing in earthly form, as man

dead = suppressed in man

resurrected = rising in man

3.5 = half of completeness (7)

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 07:57 PM
The testimony of Jesus.Okay, thank you. So, how was the testimony of Jesus killed? And how did the people of the world rejoice over the (supposed) death of the testimony of Jesus which had tormented them? And how exactly was the testimony of Jesus resurrected and then ascended to heaven while people looked on?

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 08:05 PM
I think this is incorrect. There is nothing in that part of Revelation to indicate that the two witnesses are anything but human beings. While there might be symbolism in the artifacts in the temple, I don't believe that the Witnesses themselves are symbolic. They are clearly two human beings. (distinguished from the angel that is loosed through out the earth to preach in the end).

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 08:31 PM
I think this is incorrect. There is nothing in that part of Revelation to indicate that the two witnesses are anything but human beings. While there might be symbolism in the artifacts in the temple, I don't believe that the Witnesses themselves are symbolic. They are clearly two human beings. (distinguished from the angel that is loosed through out the earth to preach in the end).I think you are misusing the word "clearly" here. It's obviously not as clear as you think it is since even mature Christians have several different views on this. The two witnesses are also called "two candlesticks". How does the following verse from the very same book define candlesticks?

Rev 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Richard H
Oct 21st 2008, 09:51 PM
Well Eric, I guess if there is one thing I am certain of in that passage it is that it is not a literal physical understanding we need to have for this picture we are being given. A picture which is painted with all these allusions to OT texts. Whereas over in Rev 20 when it talks about the first resurrection, I do see that as literally happening in the spiritual realm.

"literally happening in the spiritual realm"?

Jesus is not coming in a physical body?

When there is a rapture after the resurrection (7th trump), those raptured will be turned into spirits?

Added: I totally disagree, but since this is somewhat off topic, I'll let you answer and let it go at that.

Richard H
Oct 21st 2008, 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniHansen http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1826554#post1826554)
The two witnesses, to my understanding, are the Spirit and the Bride ... Jesus and His Church. :)

me too.

ananias

"... the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev.19: 10c)

"And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev.11: 3)


How do these 1260 days (3.5 yrs) (42 months) for the witnesses - fit in with the other instances of these time spans?

Jesus is not coming back before He comes back, and the church has been here much longer.

I'm not against seeing symbolism and parallels where appropriate, but why can these two witnesses not be actual witnesses?

Richard

Dani H
Oct 21st 2008, 10:59 PM
Well, this is where you have to know that I'm not one who takes those times given literally ... because otherwise, that would obviously make zero sense. I think the times are figurative, not literal. :)

Richard H
Oct 21st 2008, 11:21 PM
Well, this is where you have to know that I'm not one who takes those times given literally ... because otherwise, that would obviously make zero sense. I think the times are figurative, not literal. :)


Hi Dani,
The time periods do make sense, though.
Just as I accept the lifespans dating back to Adam and Eve, I also accept these time periods.

However, "literal" fulfulments does not mean that there will be actual dragons and such. There's a great deal of symbolism, and we may not fully recognize something until after the fact.

All the time periods (except for the 1290 & 1335 days in Dan 12:11,12), are the same, whether: 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3½ years, or one half of Daniel’s 70th 'week'.

Richard

PS: I think the 1290 & 1335 days is about Judah (the woman in the desert), who will have to wait until His feet touch the ground, so they can see the One whom they have pierced and then accept Him as Messiah and King.
Backing up my premise: (Is 45:4)(Is 65:9)(Rom 11:28)

tango
Oct 21st 2008, 11:27 PM
It makes the most sense to me. I believe what is described in Rev 11:11-12 describes the resurrection of the dead in Christ who rise first (before those who are alive and remain) to meet the Lord in the air when He returns (1 Thess 4:13-17).

The witnesses are seen by people all over the world. That fact only makes sense to me if the witnesses can be found all over the world, which is the case if it's referring to the church.

With the powers bestowed upon the witnesses they would probably be front-page news all over the world, and on many TV shows internationally.

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:34 AM
WHich is what I was saying, here is a lot of symbolism in prophecy, but I think the two witnesses are real people. Now There has always been speculation about who they may be, there are at least two individuals who were taken from the earth and did not "die": Elijah and Enoch....

However, I'm not sure on where that supposition can be proven, so take it for what it is.

Richard H
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:52 AM
Most teaching and most opinions hold the time-frame for the witnesses to be the second half of the week. (all that I've heard - anyway)
Essentially, they would be speaking against the abomination and the antichrist.

I think it might be the first half, though.
They'll witness that Jesus is Messiah and so the restored sacrifices are not needed.

It seems illogical for the antichrist to put up with them for 3.5 years.
his first order of buisiness is to take them out (Rev 11) and then stop the sacrifice and set up the abomination.(Rev 13)

Richard

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:40 AM
Most teaching and most opinions hold the time-frame for the witnesses to be the second half of the week. (all that I've heard - anyway)
Essentially, they would be speaking against the abomination and the antichrist.

I think it might be the first half, though.
They'll witness that Jesus is Messiah and so the restored sacrifices are not needed.

It seems illogical for the antichrist to put up with them for 3.5 years.
his first order of buisiness is to take them out (Rev 11) and then stop the sacrifice and set up the abomination.(Rev 13)

Richard

One of the problems I have with the two witnesses being 2 individuals is that the Revelation links the second "woe" to 2 things:

1 The sixth trumpet (myrriad "horsemen being sent out to kill 1/3 mankind)
2 The martyrdom of the two witnesses (Rev.11: 7-14).

(For the position of the "woes", see Rev.8: 13; Rev.9: 1, 12, and Rev. 11: 14-15)

Since the second "woe" is linked to both the sixth trumpet (myrriad "horsemen being sent out to kill 1/3 mankind) AND to the martyrdom of the two witnesses (Rev.11: 7-14), the second "woe" therefore links the sixth trumpet to the martyrdom of the two witnesses.

If the two witnesses are two individuals, why would such a great army be needed to slay them?

I believe the church will be here during the reign of the beast:

"And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Rev.13: 5-7). (See also Dan.7: 21, 25).

This is why the two witnesses are clothed in sackloth for that 3 1/2 year period - the church hasn't always been clothed in sackloth, although there have been periods when the church has been clothed in sackloth.

I believe that the 1,260 days, which = 42 months, is both symbolic for 42 generations since Christ, + it refers to a literal 42 months at the end of the age:

The moon, "the witness of the sun" symbolizes God's people reflecting the light of the sun (the Word of God) to the world. 1 Month = 1 generation.

42 generations from Abraham to Christ are listed in Mat.1: 17, Israel camped 42 times in the wilderness, 42 sons of Israel died when they mocked Elisha for saying that Elijah has been taken into heaven bodily, the woman of Revelation 12 flees into the wilderness for 1,2 60 days or 3 1/2 years, which = 42 months. Elijah prayed, and it did not rain for 3 1/2 years.

I believe that the resurrection/removal of the saints will occur in the 7th year, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and the judgment of the world will begin.

ananias

Richard H
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:22 PM
Hi Ananias,
Thanks for the “woe positions”. J

I see what you’re saying about the 2nd woe.
I’m open to changing my view, but I still think the witnesses are two actual people.
However, I want to explore Scripture, so let’s review a bit.

Rev 9:11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

I’m pretty sure the 1st woe is Abaddon – the destroyer (the AC). L
Sometime AFTERward, the 6th Trumpet sounded.

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
The voice from the horns of the alter, refers to the blood of Christ. NO
I need to change this. Not the blood, but what the blood would be covering - sin.
Rev 9:14 one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."
Rev 9:15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind.
Rev 9:16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

To me, Revelation is a series of visions which correlate, but do not necessarily occur consecutively.
They’re delineated by parenthetical visions (like the woman in the desert) which coincide at some vital point, but explain a different aspect of the whole situation.

Revelation 10 seems to be one of those parenthetical accounts - a command to prophesy.
‘Could be the preparation of the witnesses.
I think I can rule out my theory about their saying anything about the sacrifices.

I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire;
and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land;
and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices.
When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."
Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.
Then the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard again speaking with me, and saying, "Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the land."
So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he *said to me, "Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey."
I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter.
And they *said to me, "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings."
Rev 10:1-11

Then in Revelation 11, there’s the account of the witnesses.
They are killed by Abaddon and I think that is the 2nd woe. We DO know that the third woe follows some time later.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

Then there’s the 7th trumpet - the resurrection/rapture. We do not know the exact timing, other than it is after the 2nd woe.
I believe this is a “conclusion” to the vision of the witnesses – showing that God will fulfill His word spoken by those witnesses.
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
Rev 11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

In Revelation 12 we have another parenthetical vision – which seems to be a broad overview of how Satan has tried to foil the plans of God.
Also of how YHWH will preserve a remnant of Judah unto the last day, so that they can be brought in after the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.
No rapture for them, as they do not yet have the Holy Spirit, yet they are the portion of the elect which remains flesh – and for whose sake the days are cut short – lest no flesh survive.

Revelation 13 and 14 go into detail as to how the world will follow Abaddon and how he will persecute the church.
Revelation 14:13 seems to indicate a starting point to the time of the martyrs.
Scripture never tells us what the third woe is, but I believe it is the killing of the saints.

Revelation 14:15 seems to be the voice of the archangel from 1 Thessalonians 4:16 – indicating the resurrection/rapture.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe."
This seems to be another “conclusion” to a vision, since Revelation 15 is about those in Heaven after the resurrection/rapture.
It is also about the preparation for the bowls of wrath to be poured out beginning in Revelation 16.

I just don’t see the witnesses and the church being the same entity.
It is certainly possible to see symbolic parallels, but the witnesses will be actual new people - engaged in a separate encounter with Abaddon.

Richard

Lars777
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:49 PM
"I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. (Revelation 11:3-6)





In one of Paul's great messages, recorded in the book of Acts, he makes the statement that God never leaves himself without a witness. Here, in the midst of the greatest time of apostasy that the world has ever seen, God still preserves a witness.

It is manifest in the form of two individuals, two men, dressed in sackcloth (burlap, for you Baby Boomers). It was the traditional garb of a prophet when he was sent to declare some threatened judgment.

These two individuals appear dressed in sackcloth because their ministry is to strip away the delusions, lies, and humanistic propaganda masquerading as the truth, which come from the Man of Sin in that day.


First, we are told they are "two olive trees and two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth." It is easy to recognize the meaning of those symbols because Zechariah uses them as well.

In Chapter 4 of his prophecy, we read of two olive trees that drip their oil into two lampstands as a witness to Israel in the prophet's day. In connection with that witness occurs the famous oft-quoted passage, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord," (Zechariah 4:6).

So here we have two men who symbolically are like lampstands giving light in the midst of the darkness of earth. They are fed by the Spirit of God himself, for olive oil stands for the Spirit; thus their witness cannot be extinguished. They cannot be eliminated until their work is done.

They are especially protected by God for fire comes out of their mouths to destroy anyone who tries to harm them. They are human flame-throwers!

That is strongly suggestive of the ministry of Elijah the prophet. In the book of Second Samuel we are told on two different occasions concerning the ministry of Elijah that the king sent a company of fifty soldiers to take him captive.

Each time fire came down from heaven and destroyed them. This suggests therefore that one of these witnesses is Elijah, returned to earth. The book of Malachi, the last book of the Old Testament, predicts that very thing.

Malachi says, "See, I will send the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes," (Malachi 4:5). In the gospel of Matthew, at the account of the transfiguration of Jesus, as Peter, James and John came down the mountain after seeing Moses and Elijah there with the Lord, the disciples asked Jesus, "Why do the teachers say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus said in reply, "To be sure, Elijah will come and restore all things" (Matthew 17:11), but he explained that in a sense Elijah had already come, for John the Baptist had anticipated that prediction by his ministry in the spirit and power of Elijah.

That does not mean, of course, that Elijah will not yet come. He will come, as the Lord Jesus indicated clearly. So it seems certain that Elijah is one of these two witnesses.

Who is the other? There are yet more clues. These men were given power, first, to suspend all rain upon the earth. That again reminds us of Elijah who had authority from God to withhold the annual rainfall.

For 3-1/2 years it did not rain in Israel until he prayed and asked God to restore rain again. The two witnesses also had power to turn the waters into blood, and to bring plagues and diseases among the people.

That looks back to the ministry of Moses. When Pharaoh resisted Moses' appeal to let the people of God go, Moses turned the waters into blood and called plagues down upon the Egyptians.

That is why many expositors see these two witnesses as Moses and Elijah appearing again. Some say it is Enoch and Elijah, because those are the two men of the Old Testament who never died; they were caught up into heaven without death.

In some of the earliest Christian writings there is reference to Enoch and Elijah as the two witnesses. It is not definitely certain, therefore, that it is Moses here, but for me the matter is settled when I remember that it was Moses and Elijah who appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus.

Peter tells us that was a picture of the coming again of Jesus. So now that we are considering here the coming of the Lord it seems most likely that it is Moses and Elijah who are the two witnesses.

ross3421
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:01 PM
The two witnesses, to my understanding, are the Spirit and the Bride ... Jesus and His Church. :)

The bride would consist of "many"...........however it clearly states that these two are TWO prophets.

Re 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:05 PM
Hi Ananias,
Thanks for the “woe positions”. J

I see what you’re saying about the 2nd woe.
I’m open to changing my view, but I still think the witnesses are two actual people.
However, I want to explore Scripture, so let’s review a bit.



Whew! This is going to be a lot of reviewing, from what you've listed below!

I agree that the Revelation isn't written in a strictly chronological sequence/order of events; and I agree that there are a number of parenthetical chapters.




Rev 9:11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

I’m pretty sure the 1st woe is Abaddon – the destroyer (the AC). L
Sometime AFTERward, the 6th Trumpet sounded.



I don't see the 5th trumpet as Abaddon (destroyer) destroying the two witnesses - it's another entity that's being destroyed in the 5th trumpet (IMO). I'll get to which entity, and why I say that, in a moment (explaining one's understanding of these passages is a very difficult thing to do, you know!) :B




Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,



Compare the reference to the altar in the sixth trumpet with the reference to the altar in the fifth seal:

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held."
(Rev.6: 9)

In Rev.6: 9, when the angel opens the FIFTH seal, the souls of all those who through time had been martyred for their testimony to the word of God, are seen to be asking the LORD how long it will be until He avenges their blood on those who dwell on the earth – but they are told to wait a little while longer, until the full number of their brothers and fellow-servants who are to be martyred as they were, is complete.

Immediately afterward, with the opening of the SIXTH seal, THE SUN becomes “Black as sackcloth of hair”, and THE MOON becomes the color of blood – and THEN we read about THE WRATH of God FOLLOWING these events:-

Revelation 6 verse 9 to Revelation 7 verse 17:

(A) The cry of the martyrs (the FIFTH seal), THE SUN BECOMES BLACK AND THE MOON BECOMES THE COLOR OF BLOOD (the SIXTH seal); and the WRATH of God FOLLOWS (Rev.6: 9-17); and

(B) “THE FOUR WINDS” of these cataclysmic events are held back until 144,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel have been sealed with the seal of God (Rev.7: 1-8); and

( C ) John THEN sees a multitude OF SAINTS in heaven from all nations, tribes and tongues, who had come out from THE GREAT TRIBULATION (Greek: MEGAS THLIPSIS) (Rev.7: 9-17).

“THE SUN shall be turned into darkness, and THE MOON into blood, BEFORE the GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.” (Joel 2: 31).

In Mat.24: 29-31, the sun and moon are darkened “immediately after” the days of “great tribulation” (Mat.24: 21-28), and this coincides with the gathering of Christ's elect.

Is there anything in the Bible which gives us a clue as to whether the sun becoming black and the moon turning the color of blood symbolizes something?

I'm going to shorten this a lot here , by not quoting all the scriptures:

"the sun" = the Word of God
"the moon" = the chosen people who refelect the light of the Word of God to the world.

Actions of AC in book of Revelation: 6th seal, 6th trumpet, 6th bowl of wrath (666). 6th seal, 6th trumpet = actions of AC against the saints; 6th bowl of wrath = actions of AC against JACOB.

Judgment of AC: 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl of wrath (777) ("voices, lightnings, thunder, earhtquake, etc)

7th trumpet (Rev.11: 15) sandwiched between (a) verses describing martryrdom and subsequent resurrection and ascension of two witnesses (Rev.11: 7-14); and (b) verses describing God's wrath being poured out upon the world (Rev.11: 16-19).

Revelation 10: Parenthetic between 6th and 7th trumpets - judge of the world introduced with a rainbow on His head

"I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire;
and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land;
and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices.
When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."
Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer, "

It's a direct fall-back to:

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Dan.12: 7)

The reference is once again, to "the scattering of the power of the holy people - the sixth trumpet. This is why the prophetic Word (the scroll) was sweet in John's mouth (because it told of the coming of the Kingdom of the Messiah), yet it was very bitter to digest.

Two witnesses not killed by Abaddon in the 5th trumpet - KILLED BY .... (Rev.11: 7).

I'm going to get to Revelation 12-14 + who is destroyed by Abaddon in 5th trumpet in the next post - in a while - I'm kinda in need of a cuppa coffee right now. You're a slave-driver! :lol:

ananias

ross3421
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:11 PM
Those two "men" were angels.

Yes. They are 2 of the 7 angels which represented the churches. Now we just need to know who are these 7 leaders of the churches.


Here, we see angels being referred to as "two men". The word used for "men" there can just mean "male". Any angels mentioned in scripture always had male names.

No. Angels can take the form of "men". Christ is an example ie angel of the Lord. And also the two angels in Sodom which are probably these same two. Note angels are merly spirit beings apart from the flesh.

ross3421
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:01 PM
I don't see the 5th trumpet as Abaddon (destroyer) destroying the two witnesses - it's another entity that's being destroyed in the 5th trumpet (IMO). I'll get to which entity, and why I say that, in a moment (explaining one's understanding of these passages is a very difficult thing to do, you know!) :B

Correct, the 5th trumpet begins the 42 month reign of the little horn. This little horn goes and kills those opposed to his kingdom those which refuse his mark.

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Re 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

Now after this 42 months we see that the two witnesses have also finished their testomony as well and now become the focus of the beast.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Re 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Who and when does this beast arise from the pit?


First who can arise from below, a man? No, so it must be a spirit being. So abbadon must be Lucifer.

Second, when does he arise from the pit? I used to believe this indwellment occurred parrallel with these 42 months however we do not see the pit being opened until the 5th trumpet which I see as the first woe, 6th trumpet 2nd, 7th the third woe. Note the prophets are killed then comes the third woe (quickly) which represents the second coming of Christ.


Two witnesses not killed by Abaddon in the 5th trumpet - KILLED BY .... (Rev.11: 7).

So I would that the two witnesses are killed by abbadon (Lucifer) which comes up from the pit and indwells this little horn after the 1260/1290 days.



Mark

Richard H
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:11 PM
Whew! This is going to be a lot of reviewing, from what you've listed below!

I agree that the Revelation isn't written in a strictly chronological sequence/order of events; and I agree that there are a number of parenthetical chapters.



I don't see the 5th trumpet as Abaddon (destroyer) destroying the two witnesses - it's another entity that's being destroyed in the 5th trumpet (IMO). I'll get to which entity, and why I say that, in a moment (explaining one's understanding of these passages is a very difficult thing to do, you know!) :B
L.O.L. Yes it is. :)


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Compare the reference to the altar in the sixth trumpet with the reference to the altar in the fifth seal:

"And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held."
(Rev.6: 9)

In Rev.6: 9, when the angel opens the FIFTH seal, the souls of all those who through time had been martyred for their testimony to the word of God, are seen to be asking the LORD how long it will be until He avenges their blood on those who dwell on the earth – but they are told to wait a little while longer, until the full number of their brothers and fellow-servants who are to be martyred as they were, is complete.
Yes.
These are the martrys from times past.
They're waiting for all to be accomplished.

BTW: I wouldn't say that the woes are the exact same events as the seals or trumpets. :hmm:

I also think the sixth seal is a seperate event from any of the bowls of wrath.
Perhaps a super-volcano, as it will put particulate matter into the air reducing (not blocking) the sunlight - also making the moon look red.

BTW: Notice that it's the people of the earth who declare this to be the wrath of God. Not a declaration by God.


Immediately afterward, with the opening of the SIXTH seal, THE SUN becomes “Black as sackcloth of hair”, and THE MOON becomes the color of blood – and THEN we read about THE WRATH of God FOLLOWING these events:-

Revelation 6 verse 9 to Revelation 7 verse 17:

(A) The cry of the martyrs (the FIFTH seal), THE SUN BECOMES BLACK AND THE MOON BECOMES THE COLOR OF BLOOD (the SIXTH seal); and the WRATH of God FOLLOWS (Rev.6: 9-17); and

(B) “THE FOUR WINDS” of these cataclysmic events are held back until 144,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel have been sealed with the seal of God (Rev.7: 1-8); and

( C ) John THEN sees a multitude OF SAINTS in heaven from all nations, tribes and tongues, who had come out from THE GREAT TRIBULATION (Greek: MEGAS THLIPSIS) (Rev.7: 9-17).

“THE SUN shall be turned into darkness, and THE MOON into blood, BEFORE the GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.” (Joel 2: 31). ?
Rev 7 seems to be another parenthetical.


In Mat.24: 29-31, the sun and moon are darkened “immediately after” the days of “great tribulation” (Mat.24: 21-28), and this coincides with the gathering of Christ's elect.
'Does not occur at the exact same time. There's plent of opportunity during the bowls for the sun and moon to be completely blotted out - instead of just 1/3 blocked.


Is there anything in the Bible which gives us a clue as to whether the sun becoming black and the moon turning the color of blood symbolizes something
Of course. Um... Blood. ;)


I'm going to shorten this a lot here , by not quoting all the scriptures:

"the sun" = the Word of God
"the moon" = the chosen people who refelect the light of the Word of God to the world.
It that exegesis? or is it a neat way of looking at things? :hmm:


Actions of AC in book of Revelation: 6th seal, 6th trumpet, 6th bowl of wrath (666). 6th seal, 6th trumpet = actions of AC against the saints; 6th bowl of wrath = actions of AC against JACOB.

Judgment of AC: 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl of wrath (777) ("voices, lightnings, thunder, earhtquake, etc)
OK :)


7th trumpet (Rev.11: 15) sandwiched between (a) verses describing martryrdom and subsequent resurrection and ascension of two witnesses (Rev.11: 7-14); and (b) verses describing God's wrath being poured out upon the world (Rev.11: 16-19).

Revelation 10: Parenthetic between 6th and 7th trumpets - judge of the world introduced with a rainbow on His head
[/color][/font]
"I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire;
and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land;
and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices.
When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."
Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer, "

It's a direct fall-back to:

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Dan.12: 7)

The reference is once again, to "the scattering of the power of the holy people - the sixth trumpet. This is why the prophetic Word (the scroll) was sweet in John's mouth (because it told of the coming of the Kingdom of the Messiah), yet it was very bitter to digest.
OK :)


Two witnesses not killed by Abaddon in the 5th trumpet - KILLED BY .... (Rev.11: 7).
Fifth trumpet is Rev 9. Refering to the torment of the unsealed.

I went back to read what I wrote. I had a comma in there, but I was not clear enough - even for me and I wrote it. :blush:

Abaddon is the first woe.

After Abaddon is the 6th trumpet.
This does not mean that the first woe = the the 5th trumpet.


I'm going to get to Revelation 12-14 + who is destroyed by Abaddon in 5th trumpet in the next post - in a while - I'm kinda in need of a cuppa coffee right now. You're a slave-driver! :lol: :rofl:

Dunno if I can get to it till tonight anyway. I have to get some work done.

Richard

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:01 PM
It that exegesis? or is it a neat way of looking at things? :hmm:

Richard

I dunno. You read the following and decide on eisegesis/exegesis ;):

We will find quite a few scriptures where the sun and the moon symbolize things:

“I will not break My covenant, nor change the thing that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness that I will not lie to David...

... His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as THE SUN before Me. It shall be established forever like THE MOON, and like A FAITHFUL WITNESS in the heavens. Selah.” (Ps.89: 34-37).

According to the Bible, king David's throne is the eternal throne of Jesus Christ (who is the incarnate Word of God); and just as the sun provides the world with PHYSICAL light, so the Word of God provides the world with SPIRITUAL light.

THE MOON is THE FAITHFUL WITNESS OF THE SUN (Ps.89: 37), because it reflects the light of the sun.

In Proverbs we read,

“A faithful witness will not lie, but a false witness will speak lies.” (Pro.14: 5); and in Revelation we read that the Lord Jesus Christ is “… the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” (Rev.3: 14).

1 Joseph, one of Israel's twelve sons, once dreamed a dream in which he saw THE SUN, THE MOON, and the other eleven stars bowing before him. Joseph was one of the twelve “stars”, or the twelve tribes of Israel (Gen.37: 9), and Joseph's dream was a picture of the nation of Israel. The dream came true much later, when Joseph became ruler over all Egypt under Pharaoh, and all Israel bowed down to him.

2 “The woman” of Revelation chapter twelve (who brought the Messiah into the world) is pictured “CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, with THE MOON under her feet and a garland of twelve stars on her head” (Rev.12: 1).

In other words, “the woman” of Revelation chapter 12 is clothed with the glory of God - “the sun” symbolizes THE WORD OF GOD, and the male Child she brings into the world is THE INCARNATE WORD OF GOD. The twelve stars symbolize the twelve tribes of Israel – the nation TO WHOM the Word of God came, and THROUGH WHOM the Word of God came into the world.

After her Child (“who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron”) had been “caught up to God and to His throne” (Rev.12: 5), the devil was cast out of heaven, and went to war against “the woman” and “THE REST OF HER SEED, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (Rev.12: 6-17).

Gen3: 15 says,

“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” (Gen.3: 15).

This shows that “the woman” of Revelation 12 is typified by “the woman” of Gen3: 15.

3 When the incarnate Word of God was crucified, THE SUN WAS LITERALLY DARKENED:

“And from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is, My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?” (Mat.27: 45-46).

Therefore the moon symbolizes the chosen nation which, as a faithful witness, reflects the light of the Word of God (the sun) into the world.

Revelation 6 verse 9 to Revelation 7 verse 17:

(A) The cry of the martyrs (the FIFTH seal), THE SUN BECOMES BLACK AND THE MOON BECOMES THE COLOR OF BLOOD (the SIXTH seal); and the WRATH of God FOLLOWS (Rev.6: 9-17); and

(B) “THE FOUR WINDS” of these cataclysmic events are held back until 144,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel have been sealed with the seal of God (Rev.7: 1-8); and

( C ) John THEN sees a multitude OF SAINTS in heaven from all nations, tribes and tongues, who had come out from THE GREAT TRIBULATION (Greek: MEGAS THLIPSIS) (Rev.7: 9-17).

So is the darkening of the sun in Revelation (a) symbolic; or (b) literal; or ( c ) BOTH symbolic AND lietral?

Next up: What I think about the 5th trumpet.

ananias

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:41 PM
Hi Ananias,
Thanks for the “woe positions”. J

I see what you’re saying about the 2nd woe.
I’m open to changing my view, but I still think the witnesses are two actual people.
However, I want to explore Scripture, so let’s review a bit.

Rev 9:11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

I’m pretty sure the 1st woe is Abaddon – the destroyer (the AC). L
Sometime AFTERward, the 6th Trumpet sounded.

Richard

Check what Revelation 17and 18 say about the activity of the "ten kings", before they hand over their power and athority to "the beast ascending from the abyss (who martyrs the two witnesses, Rev.11: 7)":

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters,...

... and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire...

... And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence (Greek: hormema - violent attack) shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Rev.17: 1, 16 and Rev.18: 21).

Forgetting for a moment about who/what "babylon the Great" refers to, the other big question is,

When will this happen to "Babylon the Great at the hand of the ten kings"?

I think Revelation 14 gives us the answer:

Revelation 14 and 15 are parenthetic between (a) the rise of AC in Revelation 13; and (b) the pouring out of the 7 bowls of wrath in Revelation 16.

What does Revelation 14 say?

Revelation 14

Verses 1-5: The 144,000 of Rev.7: 1-8 have all been sealed and are depicted in heaven (following the events of Revelation 13)???

Verses 6-13: The events leading up to the events of Revelation 13 (the mark of the beast, etc) - the parenthetic verse I will highlight in red:

"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.

("Babylon the Great will be destroyed by the "ten kings", according to Rev.17: 1, 16)

And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.

And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.

And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them." (Rev.14: 6-13)

Verses 14-20 (still in Revelation 14): The culmination of the events described in Revelation 13 and Rev,14: 6-13 - the gathering of the harvest and "the grapes of wrath".

But the ten kings don't only war against "Babylon the Great", according to Rev.17: 14:

"These (ten kings) will (also) make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (Rev.17: 14)

(This is still before the "ten kings" hand over their power and authority to the beast ascending from the abyss, who martyrs the two witnesses).

So this is my fallible human conclusion of the matter:

5th trumpet = the destruction of "Babylon the Great" at the hand of the "ten kings" (Rev.17: 1, 16).

Why?

Because:-

(a) "These (ten kings) will (also) make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (Rev.17: 14)

(b) In the 5th trumpet, "... they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads." (Rev.9: 4)

This still doesn't explain anything, unless one views "Babylon the Great" as symbolizing all the religions and religious systems of this world which oppose the revealed Word of God - the ten kings will hate all religion (I wonder why??)- including the faith of the Lamb - but although they succeed in destroying "Babylon the Great" (Rev.17: 16), they will not overcome the Lamb, according to Rev.17: 14.

But then the ten kings will hand over their power and authority to the beast ascending from the abyss (Rev.17: 7-18).

"Babylon the Great" is the antithesis to "the woman" of Revelation 12.

And everyone is going to disagree with me, so :giveup:

God bless,
ananias

Richard H
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:23 PM
I dunno. You read the following and decide on eisegesis/exegesis ;):

We will find quite a few scriptures where the sun and the moon symbolize things:
<snip>
...


Therefore the moon symbolizes the chosen nation which, as a faithful witness, reflects the light of the Word of God (the sun) into the world.

...


So is the darkening of the sun in Revelation (a) symbolic; or (b) literal; or ( c ) BOTH symbolic AND lietral?
Um.. er... ah... :hmm:

I knew I was handing you a loaded pistol - not just a straight-line. ;)

Richard

Richard H
Oct 22nd 2008, 11:31 PM
Check what Revelation 17and 18 say about the activity of the "ten kings", before they hand over their power and athority to "the beast ascending from the abyss (who martyrs the two witnesses, Rev.11: 7)":Abaddon the destroyer, the antichrist kills them. (has them killed)


And then... jumping to Rev 17... :hmm:


"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters,...

... and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire...

... And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence (Greek: hormema - violent attack) shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Rev.17: 1, 16 and Rev.18: 21).

Forgetting for a moment about who/what "babylon the Great" refers to, the other big question is,

When will this happen to "Babylon the Great at the hand of the ten kings"?
During the bowls of wrath.


I think Revelation 14 gives us the answer:

Revelation 14 and 15 are parenthetic between (a) the rise of AC in Revelation 13; and (b) the pouring out of the 7 bowls of wrath in Revelation 16.
Agree. :yes:



What does Revelation 14 say?


Revelation 14

Verses 1-5: The 144,000 of Rev.7: 1-8 have all been sealed and are depicted in heaven (following the events of Revelation 13)???

Verses 6-13: The events leading up to the events of Revelation 13 (the mark of the beast, etc) - the parenthetic verse I will highlight in red:
A parenthetic inside a parenthetic.
I'm following ya, but I'm not sure where we're going. :hmm:


"And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people, saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And another angel followed, saying, The great city, Babylon, has fallen, has fallen; because of the wine of the anger of her fornication; she has made all nations to drink.
In this case, a prophetic parenthetic. ;)


("Babylon the Great will be destroyed by the "ten kings", according to Rev.17: 1, 16)

And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath.

And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.

And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
This verse also seems to be parenthetic - a special note of encouragement and wisdom for the reader. :thumbsup:


And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them." (Rev.14: 6-13)
A beginning point for the time of the tribulation martrys and the promise that it will not be in vein. :saint:

Verses 14-20 (still in Revelation 14): The culmination of the events described in Revelation 13 and Rev,14: 6-13 - the gathering of the harvest and "the grapes of wrath". OK. Foretelling the resurrection/rapture and then later the wrath - actually Armageddon.


But the ten kings don't only war against "Babylon the Great", according to Rev.17: 14:

"These (ten kings) will (also) make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (Rev.17: 14)

This is speaking of Armageddon. The kings make war with Christ Himself and we who are with Him. (Rev 16:16)
Additionally, the remant of Judah is there - IMO: a portion of the Elect - ready at that time to accept the Messiah.


(This is still before the "ten kings" hand over their power and authority to the beast ascending from the abyss, who martyrs the two witnesses).

So this is my fallible human conclusion of the matter:

5th trumpet = the destruction of "Babylon the Great" at the hand of the "ten kings" (Rev.17: 1, 16).

Ah Ha! :idea:
But Rev 17 is not the fifth trumpet. This turning on Babylon is during the wrath.



Why?

Because:-

(a) "These (ten kings) will (also) make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (Rev.17: 14)

(b) In the 5th trumpet, "... they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads." (Rev.9: 4)

This still doesn't explain anything, unless one views "Babylon the Great" as symbolizing all the religions and religious systems of this world which oppose the revealed Word of God - the ten kings will hate all religion (I wonder why??)- including the faith of the Lamb - but although they succeed in destroying "Babylon the Great" (Rev.17: 16), they will not overcome the Lamb, according to Rev.17: 14.

But then the ten kings will hand over their power and authority to the beast ascending from the abyss (Rev.17: 7-18).


"Babylon the Great" is the antithesis to "the woman" of Revelation 12.
I see the contrast of the two women.
I think we may need to save the ID of mystery Babylon for another thread. :D


And everyone is going to disagree with me, so :giveup:
_______________________________________:lol:


'Still seeing the witnesses as separate from the church.
But that's OK. :)
I don't think it will be on the final exam for either of us. ;)

Richard

Richard H
Oct 22nd 2008, 11:44 PM
Ananias,
I will say that I've changed my mind on the timing of the two witnesses.
I now see their being raised from the dead - as slightly preceeding the resurrection/rapture.

I think I'm done now. This is exhausting! ;)
:sleeping: Richard

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:02 AM
Yes. They are 2 of the 7 angels which represented the churches.
Hi Ross,
Although I don't agree, it's an interesting concept.
Also note that only two of the churches got "passing grades".

I shouldn't encourage you in this. Heehee

Now we just need to know who are these 7 leaders of the churches. Why?
I dunno if there're leaders anymore.
Perhaps these are church types and not actual churches. :hmm:

Richard

ananias
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:31 AM
Ananias,
I will say that I've changed my mind on the timing of the two witnesses.
I now see their being raised from the dead - as slightly preceeding the resurrection/rapture.

I think I'm done now. This is exhausting! ;)
:sleeping: Richard

Well, what you said about the things below sound plausible and have a ring of truth to them:

And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them." (Rev.14: 6-13) A beginning point for the time of the tribulation martrys and the promise that it will not be in vein. :saint:

Quote:
Verses 14-20 (still in Revelation 14): The culmination of the events described in Revelation 13 and Rev,14: 6-13 - the gathering of the harvest and "the grapes of wrath".
OK. Foretelling the resurrection/rapture and then later the wrath - actually Armageddon.

Quote:
But the ten kings don't only war against "Babylon the Great", according to Rev.17: 14:

"These (ten kings) will (also) make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (Rev.17: 14)
This is speaking of Armageddon. The kings make war with Christ Himself and we who are with Him. (Rev 16:16)
Additionally, the remant of Judah is there - IMO: a portion of the Elect - ready at that time to accept the Messiah.

:)


Hope u have a good day today,
ananias

Servant of David
Oct 24th 2008, 07:35 PM
Richard,

The two witnesses will be charged with being false prophets. Why do you think this will be when we are aware of their ministry to come?

Michael

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 07:48 PM
Richard,

The two witnesses will be charged with being false prophets.I hadn't thought of that. I just figured they'd be annoying people with all that fire and like that. ;) Charged as false? Certainly possible. :)
Why do you think this will be when we are aware of their ministry to come?

MichaelI don't recall saying that. I think lots of things in Revelation may not be apparent to many, as they (we) may have incorrect preconceptions. Time will tell, but after there's a temple, and two guys show up - it should be pretty clear to most who understand.

Servant of David
Oct 24th 2008, 08:37 PM
Richard,

My family believes that the two witnesses ( Enoch and Elijah) will testify to Christ and testify to the first part of the second coming of our Lord ( as a thief in the night). I will explain in more detail later.

Servant of David
Oct 24th 2008, 09:03 PM
Richard,

I should say this is one reason why, what they minister will not be recognized.

Servant of David
Oct 26th 2008, 12:14 AM
[quote=Richard H;1826897]
Moses died before reaching the promised land.
Elijah was taken up to Heaven, but then somehow John was the Elijah and then was beheaded.
"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.



Hi Richard,

You are almost moving in the right direction but not quite. You have to believe that you lived before. There are children that know of there past life. They know things that only they can know if they lived that past life. The early Church believed that they would be born again physically. Jewish tradition tells us that Jacob believed he was Michael the Archangel and Adam. The Patriarchs all were promised to be here in the end times.

Now lets look at this Matt. 20 verse 20-24:

20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.

21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.

These two are the brothers John ( Elijah) and James ( Enoch) the two candlesticks Michael and Raphael . John and James have been born into this time and have witnessed the first part of the second coming. When the two witnesses Elijah and Enoch start there ministry they will testify to Christ and the first part of the second coming through their other lives they lived.

Rev. 11

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Michael and Raphael)

Richard, I can tell you the world will not recognize the Word that these two anointed will minister about.

I will give you the key in interpreting end of times it is in Revelations chapter 3 verse 7.

Hope to hear from you.

Michael

Dani H
Oct 26th 2008, 12:22 AM
Hebrews 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=9&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Servant of David
Oct 26th 2008, 12:24 AM
Richard,

I want to make it clear, and don't want you to think because my name is Michael and my forum name is Servant of David that think I am one of the witnesses because I'm not.

Michael

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 12:42 AM
You have to believe that you lived before. There are children that know of there past life. They know things that only they can know if they lived that past life. The early Church believed that they would be born again physically.

Richard, I can tell you the world will not recognize the Word that these two anointed will minister about.

I will give you the key in interpreting end of times it is in Revelations chapter 3 verse 7.

Hope to hear from you.

Michael
Hi Michael, :)
Thanks for getting back to me.
However, the Bible does not support the concept of reincarnation. :no:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:27 KJV

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Heb 9:27 NASB

I agree that the world will not accept the testimony of the two witnesses.

As for the “key” - I get the pun, but not your point. :hmm:
He that “hath” the key of David, would have to be Christ.

Richard

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:7 KJV

"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:
Rev 3:7 NASB

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 12:43 AM
Richard,

I want to make it clear, and don't want you to think because my name is Michael and my forum name is Servant of David that think I am one of the witnesses because I'm not.

MichaelI didn't think that at all, Michael. :)

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 01:17 AM
Hi Michael,
I’m sorry if my exploration of the relationship between Elijah and John the Baptist led you astray.
Of all people who could possibly be “reincarnated” Elijah and Enoch would be the only ones to qualify.
But, the Bible teaches against reincarnation, so it would have to be a symbolic return, anyway.

Personally, I do not think really think John was the reincarnation of Elijah.
The Bible says that he had the spirit and power of Elijah, but I don’t think this was Elijah’s actual human spirit,
but rather the spirit of his office – his mission.

“Make straight the way of the Lord”
(Get ready for the One who is coming)

'Make sense?
Richard

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 01:59 AM
Hi Michael,
I went back and read what I'd written.

Even IF John was the "reincarnation" of Elijah,
the fact that he had his head cut off - killing him,
means that he cannot come back as one of the witnesses.

Simply because, it is given that we only die once.

Richard

quiet dove
Oct 26th 2008, 04:36 AM
Joh 1:19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
Joh 1:20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
Joh 1:22 Then they said to him, "Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?"
Joh 1:23 He said: "I am 'THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS: "MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD," ' as the prophet Isaiah said."

ross3421
Oct 26th 2008, 05:18 AM
[QUOTE=Richard H;1836311]
BTW: I wouldn't say that the woes are the exact same events as the seals or trumpets. :hmm:

Sorry...trying to get caught up with this thread.

The woe's definately look to parrallel the last three trumpets. The 7th trumpet brings about the return of Christ

Re 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Re 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded,

Re 11:14 the third woe cometh quickly.
Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded;

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



I also think the sixth seal is a seperate event from any of the bowls of wrath.

Does it not appear that the bowl judgements must take place before the ending of the 6th seal?

Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Perhaps a super-volcano, as it will put particulate matter into the air reducing (not blocking) the sunlight - also making the moon look red.

Actually this just came to me as I was writing the above and WOW (Iam going to start a seperate thread)........

The moon is a relection of the sun so we see the moon bright at night. So is the moon becoming blood a relection of the sun????

Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

So we have the sun blackened by the angel standing in the midst like a eclipse, the moon will relect the red of the vesture of the one standing. And yes, Christ does appear as an angel (spirit apart from flesh) upon his return.

Re 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



Mark

ross3421
Oct 26th 2008, 05:54 AM
[QUOTE=ananias;1836458]So this is my fallible human conclusion of the matter:

5th trumpet = the destruction of "Babylon the Great" at the hand of the "ten kings" (Rev.17: 1, 16).


I see the first 4 trumpets being the destruction of Babylon. The 5th, 6th, and 7th being the three woe's. I do agree that the 10 kings participate

A great mountain burning with fire......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re 8:8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

This mountain burning is Babylon. It is cast back into the sea from where it came...... The third trumpet then is the great millstone which thrown down upon this city to be no more (events seen in chapter 18).

Note, that the plaques reference a third part which represents the kingdom of Satan (chapter 12). In addition, as in the Kingdom of God we see "fountains of water" which now will no longer be sweet but bitter.

Re 8:10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

The first four plaques are directed to Satan's kingdom and Babylon. This why the chapter seperation between the four and the fifth palques. These plaques occur in one day.

Re 18:8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Furthermore,look at the parrallel of the seven angels in chapter 14 to the seven trumpets. We see the 2nd angel speaking of Babylon and the third of the inhabinants drinking.

Re 14:8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Re 14:10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;


Why?

Because:-

(a) "These (ten kings) will (also) make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them. For He is Lord of lords and King of kings. And those with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones." (Rev.17: 14)

(b) In the 5th trumpet, "... they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads." (Rev.9: 4)

This still doesn't explain anything, unless one views "Babylon the Great" as symbolizing all the religions and religious systems of this world which oppose the revealed Word of God - the ten kings will hate all religion (I wonder why??)- including the faith of the Lamb - but although they succeed in destroying "Babylon the Great" (Rev.17: 16), they will not overcome the Lamb, according to Rev.17: 14.

But then the ten kings will hand over their power and authority to the beast ascending from the abyss (Rev.17: 7-18).

"Babylon the Great" is the antithesis to "the woman" of Revelation 12.

And everyone is going to disagree with me, so :giveup:

God bless,
ananias

Let me throw you for a loop......... The ten kings represent 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel which will align themselves with the beast but God will caused them to repent and do his will and assist in the destruction of Babylon.

Re 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

We see a parrallel in EZ 39.



Mark

ross3421
Oct 26th 2008, 06:23 AM
Did Elijah or Enoch ever die?

We see that Elijah went up immediately to heaven though if they were dead they would have to remain in the grave three days. There is no mention of his physical death. Also, concerning Enoch interestingly all those in chapter 5 Gen mentioned that they died except for Enoch.

Why Enoch and Elijah? Who are the other 5 candlesticks? Note I see Enoch and Elijah which represent two of the 7 churches as angels (leaders). Again both are in heaven (spirits) as of now but appear to be preserved for a time in the future to return.

Interesting we see the warning to the first church at Ephesus that God will take their candlestick away. So if two now only stand before God then does this mean 5 must have fallen?

Re 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Re 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Kudo Shinichi
Oct 27th 2008, 02:25 PM
Revelation 11:3 is something to do with 2 witnesses who are prophets...as Jponb said...Moses and Elijah, because my speaker speak about those two person...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Most people believe that these two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. These two have never died. Also thrown into possibility is Moses due to the signs and powers they will possess. One of my own consideration is the Apostle John. John chapter 21 closed with a what-if question by Jesus. What if he shall remain until I come again, what's it to you? Also John was told that he had to testify of the things he saw again.. What do you think?

David Taylor
Oct 28th 2008, 04:25 PM
Did Elijah or Enoch ever die?

We see that Elijah went up immediately to heaven though if they were dead they would have to remain in the grave three days. There is no mention of his physical death. Also, concerning Enoch interestingly all those in chapter 5 Gen mentioned that they died except for Enoch.



I believe scripture teaches they both died.

However, scripture is also kind of odd in regarding the ending of their lives; and tradition has turned them into eternal-living exceptions.

Genesis says all of the days of Enoch were 365 years.
Hebrews says Enoch died in the faith.

So Enoch "being translated so he would not see death" can't mean Enoch didn't die.

What it could mean, is that Enoch was translated to another location to prevent wicked men from killing him at some point in his life.
(kinda like Philip was translated from one location to another in Acts)

That understanding doesn't read anything into the scriptures that creates conflict with other scriptures. We're unfortunate not to have much detail about the end of Enoch's time on this Earth; but we can also know that Enoch was not bodily taken up into Heaven (the Heaven where God abodes) either.

John 3:13 And no man (this would include Enoch and Elijah) hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

So when Elijah was taken up into heaven on a tornado; we know the context of that verse was not God's Heaven; but only the lower heaven where the birds fly around....and where tornados typically transport people from place to place (or sometimes cows if you ever watched "Twister")

Elijah was removed from being the prophet of God so Elisha would step forward out of his shadow.

Nothing in scripture teaches Elijah didn't die either. In fact, after the tornado passage, later on in (Kings or Chronicles can't remember which); there is more discussion of Elijah still being alive and kicking.

It is a very popular myth that Enoch and Elijah (nor Moses bones, nor Mary, nor Mohammed) were bodily assumed into Heaven....but it isn't true; and it creates disharmony and conflict with the scriptures above I referenced.

Only Jesus Christ has bodily ascended into Heaven; according to the scriptures.

iyulchik
Oct 29th 2008, 06:03 PM
Hello Partaker,

According to what I have read, this 2 witnesses are the Old Testament and the New Testament which were prohibited/censored in the Dark ages whilst the pope ruled.

And was ended by the reformation. yay!!

Be good


Yes! I agree! That's what I heard, too, and I believe it.
I agree about the part with the pope and all that. They tried to keep the scriptures away from the people and they trampled all over them and tried to take away their power.
I don't remember the history and all that, but I remember reading about the time period where the Catholic Church ruled and the stuff that went on. And there was a point where I believe it was France ruled that the scriptures were basically irrelevant and false and all that jazz. The people were really happy and they celebrated before it all went downhill.
Sorry, I can't be very specific with information. I'll find it soon and tell you more about it then.
As for verses 12 and 13, I honestly don't know how those fit in exactly. Sorry my answer isn't very complete. It leaves a lot of room for questions, but hey, without questioning beliefs, we'll never know what we really believe, will we?

3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.
13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
-Revelation 11:3-13

iyulchik
Oct 30th 2008, 01:12 PM
Ok. I found the information I had read before. So, after France declared that there was no God, they had big problems. Three and a half years later, they took back their decision, and shortly after that, the Bible was honored more than before. Bibles started being published and translated and have been working since then.