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moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 01:15 AM
and looking too much for the material, literal concerning the end times? And this is why so many of us have such clashing views?

I am about to really sick my neck out here risking everyone thinking I am a loony toon...but I am going to do it anyway...:rolleyes:

I am not one of the top smarter people on here in regards to studying the end times and getting so technological like some do on here...their threads are way over my head! But I believe God reaches us where we are..in a way we can understand individually...what we need to understand. Years ago I started working on truly worshiping God in the spirit as the bible says to do:

John 4:24
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

I do this alone ...not in any church by the way. I need things quiet. Anyway I did this for a long time and really enjoyed a much deeper connection with Him and in return He has truly blessed me by giving me visions and dreams.

I would worship Him in spirit and also of course bring my concerns and prayers to Him and I tell you for years I was frustrated because He would rarely address those concerns directly...but instead show me other things that seemed to not have a thing to do with my worries or concerns. I was truly baffled by this for a long time...it wasn't that He just blew me off or thought my concerned were too minor to address but that He was trying to show me the bigger picture, so to speak. My mind was on the earthly matters...He constantly showed me the spiritual instead. And alot of what I saw was well frankly over my head too but I didn't worry about it because I knew my spirit understood and that in time my mind would understand too.

While I am shown physical things in my dreams or visions...they all have a very deep symbolic meaning to them. I tend to rattle on (in case no one notice my post counts! :lol:) and I am no different in His presences...I am constantly told to be quite and watch and listen! So I do...hard to image but I can be quiet...;)

The other day listening to the Christian radio station I heard a sermon that helped me to start understanding why Christ was using this approach with me. The story was about Joseph and what he went through...sold as a slave by his own brothers...all the trials he went through...being falsely accused and thrown in prison for years! And how he didn't focus on his situation but stayed focused on God. He didn't mull around with oh poor me I am in prison...sold as a slave...how much he missed his father...he didn't dwell on that at all but kept his eyes on God.

Everything I read on here is very literal...the worries and the concerns and how these things that might happened will affect us. If someone says something otherwise they might be told they are spiritualizing all the end times stuff. Maybe there is a medium there though?

For instance before Jesus was about to be arrested and killed and was talking to His disciples, Peter got all upset and didn't want it to happen.

Matthew 16:22-24

22 But Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him for saying such things. “Heaven forbid, Lord,” he said. “This will never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.”

While the cross was real...the meaning of it went much deeper then just the physical part of it...we all know that. Basic Christian knowledge.

What I see is people trying to understand the end times through a human point of view and possibly not from the point of view of God's. Not saying I have all the answers by any means! All I am shown is in the end Christ overcomes the dragon...(well a few other things too which I am trying to figure out)...

We all know in the end He wins...actually He has won! And maybe that is all we need to know...to focus on Him regardless of our situations...

God bless

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 01:47 AM
So having said that I would like to tell you what I saw in a vision the other day...I realize there is a dream and vision forum for this sort of thing but I hope to keep this on here for those that would know the matching verses for this better then I do. I feel this directly has to do with everything we talk about on here.

I saw the 24 elders in Heaven ..12 standing on each side of an tunnel in which ten Bridesmaids came out of all dressed in wedding gowns...these are more like brides then bridesmaids actually. I have seem similar scenes many, many times before. They walk down a walk way then up some stairs to the throne room..I already knew things were going to go bad...Have seen that before too and I didn't want to watch...I tried to look away but someone was standing beside me telling me I had to watch.

A little background quickly here. One time I saw them dancing one minute around Jesus and the next attacking Him...but the attack isn't a physical attack...its spiritual. While I was very shaken by this...not understanding...later I came to understand this is what these churches that distort God's Word do to Christ everyday. They wound Him...they abuse Him...they tear Him apart...His Words (The Word Becomes Flesh..John 1:14).

I was high above looking down at all of this..I saw mighty winged angels standing on each side of the throne room. Christ on His throne but then in comes the lovely and oh so beautiful brides with their black hearts. :cry:

This time there was no pretending ...no even fake worship...nothing nice at all and they seized Him and took Him down to the crystal lake with fire under it. The scene was horrible and next I saw Him, He was the beaten and whipped Christ with the purple robe hanging off His body as He stood barely hanging His head. One of the brides...I saw the back of her head change and mutant into something ghastly and then she was the head of the red dragon...

Revelation 12:3
Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads.

She absorbed all the other brides and their bodies became the dragons bodies and this thing...this horrible dragon roared and circled around Christ who was stills standing there, beaten and bloody. It grew and was huge and Jesus looked so small...the whole thing was very terrifying! But this man besides me kept saying to look..to watch..to see, even though I didn't want to see.

Then finally I was told to go to Him and so I ran from the high place I was down to Him and barely grabbed Him in time as He was lifted up and changed from what appeared to be this beaten defeated man into God. He became the bright morning star! (Revelation 22:16) His brightness literally blasted the dragon to dust..then the dust to ashes and then even the ashes shriveled away to nothing. And we rose up to the mountain where God the Father is in the thundering clouds.

I have seen these brides or bridesmaids time and time again and have come to believe they are the churches...the Christian churches gone bad...very bad. Apostate. I don't think we need to be looking for the government as our enemy or another nation or religion at this point but at ourselves. (not saying those things won't play into things)

Who wanted Christ on the cross in the first place?

Who wanted all His disciplines dead?

His own religion. (I am NOT pointing at the Jews!) We have gone beyond that now haven't we? What is our religion now? Why were all the Christian churches in the beginning of Revelation scolded except one? Why all the warnings about false prophets and teaches?

Maybe I am way off track here...maybe someone else will be guided by this and put the pieces together. After all we are made up of many parts of one body which is suppose to all work together.

God bless

Richard H
Oct 17th 2008, 03:32 AM
Hi MoonGlow,
That’s a very interesting vision.
I generally don’t “go for” visions, but Scripture tells us not to despise the prophetic.

Do not quench the Spirit;
do not despise prophetic utterances.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
1Thes 5:19-21

Certainly, there’s a great deal of flesh in some churches today.
There’s kingdom (empire) building through business models.
There’s donation motivation teachings which guides the people into self-serving “seed planting”.

I could continue, but suffice it to say that the focus is on self – the flesh.

The good news of redemption from sin has been replaced by the feel good promise of having all one’s problems solved.
When that doesn’t happen, it’s a lack of faith. L

The Good Shepherd said to Peter three times to feed His sheep (and lambs – the third time).
This was to be the expression of Peter’s love for Christ.
Sadly, real spiritual meat is not being served, and the milk has been watered down.
What happen to: the Gospel? Who teaches repentance? Who emphasizes holiness? (Being set apart for God)
Who teaches the fruit of the Spirit? ‘And the need to sacrifice selfishness?

I occasionally read posts in the dreams forum, and I’ve noticed a reoccurring theme:
God is outside the church, and the church will suffer because of it.
The hypocrisy, ignorance and sin present in the pulpits is reflected in the pews.

We have to ask ourselves:
But what is the purpose of these dreams and visions?
Is it to leave the churches so as not to be involved in these sins?
Are we being called out?
Or is it a call to action?
And if so, what sort of action might that be?

"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8

I wish I had the answers as I’m sure you do as well.
Richard

Dani H
Oct 17th 2008, 03:39 AM
But the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

Amen, and amen.

Edit: When reading Revelation, we have to keep in mind that John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. The whole book is spiritual.

Nihil Obstat
Oct 17th 2008, 03:56 AM
But the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

Amen, and amen.

Edit: When reading Revelation, we have to keep in mind that John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. The whole book is spiritual.

Yes, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is spiritual, in the sense of "opposite of fleshly / carnal", but not in the sense of "opposite of literal".

Dani H
Oct 17th 2008, 04:08 AM
Yes, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is spiritual, in the sense of "opposite of fleshly / carnal", but not in the sense of "opposite of literal".

Have you ever seen a literal dragon?

How about a literal woman caught up in the heavens clothed with the sun and moon and stars?

Are you a literal candlestick? Or are you a person?

My concern with taking some things literal with Revelations, and other things not so much, is that there is no consistency and things get real muddled, real fast. Which is where people start arguing about pre-trib and post-trib and this trib and that trib, and so on and so forth.

By "spiritual" I mean a pictural rendition of spiritual concepts, principles, and truths. Established by a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

What is your take on that?

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 17th 2008, 04:20 AM
One thing:

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

Maybe when you be in certain place or writting the meaning of these will be given to you, for this happened to Ellen G. White. around 1800`s.

Fareyewell

bennie
Oct 17th 2008, 04:37 AM
Have you ever seen a literal dragon?

How about a literal woman caught up in the heavens clothed with the sun and moon and stars?

Are you a literal candlestick? Or are you a person?

My concern with taking some things literal with Revelations, and other things not so much, is that there is no consistency and things get real muddled, real fast. Which is where people start arguing about pre-trib and post-trib and this trib and that trib, and so on and so forth.

By "spiritual" I mean a pictural rendition of spiritual concepts, principles, and truths. Established by a God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

What is your take on that?


hi dani

have you ever seen spirutual grass.
have you ever seen spirutual trees or earthquekes or thunder.
well, i hope not:D revelation can be symbolic, literal or analogous.

Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

All different tipes of langauge my friend.

bennie

Dani H
Oct 17th 2008, 05:07 AM
hi dani

have you ever seen spirutual grass.
have you ever seen spirutual trees or earthquekes or thunder.
well, i hope not:D revelation can be symbolic, literal or analogous.

Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

All different tipes of langauge my friend.

bennie

Well, I've heard spiritual thunder ... when God opens His mouth and jumps all over my case. :)

I can fully understand people getting concerned about ... "over-spiritualization" ... because some people just can't take sound doctrine and use that to explain things away and chase after their own fancies and out of balance and off into flakiness.

But I think the concern of that shouldn't keep us from stepping too far into the literal, either.

I'm with Moonglow looking for the medium ... on solid ground.

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 02:52 PM
Hi MoonGlow,
That’s a very interesting vision.
I generally don’t “go for” visions, but Scripture tells us not to despise the prophetic.

Do not quench the Spirit;
do not despise prophetic utterances.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
1Thes 5:19-21

Certainly, there’s a great deal of flesh in some churches today.
There’s kingdom (empire) building through business models.
There’s donation motivation teachings which guides the people into self-serving “seed planting”.

I could continue, but suffice it to say that the focus is on self – the flesh.

The good news of redemption from sin has been replaced by the feel good promise of having all one’s problems solved.
When that doesn’t happen, it’s a lack of faith. L

The Good Shepherd said to Peter three times to feed His sheep (and lambs – the third time).
This was to be the expression of Peter’s love for Christ.
Sadly, real spiritual meat is not being served, and the milk has been watered down.
What happen to: the Gospel? Who teaches repentance? Who emphasizes holiness? (Being set apart for God)
Who teaches the fruit of the Spirit? ‘And the need to sacrifice selfishness?

I occasionally read posts in the dreams forum, and I’ve noticed a reoccurring theme:
God is outside the church, and the church will suffer because of it.
The hypocrisy, ignorance and sin present in the pulpits is reflected in the pews.

We have to ask ourselves:
But what is the purpose of these dreams and visions?
Is it to leave the churches so as not to be involved in these sins?
Are we being called out?
Or is it a call to action?
And if so, what sort of action might that be?

"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
Luke 18:8

I wish I had the answers as I’m sure you do as well.
Richard

The purpose of dreams and visions have always been to benefit the church or the individual. Especially in the first century with the new churches who had no bibles in their hands to refer too. While many of the first Christians were Jews and knew the OT by heart...they needed alot of guidance and teaching and encouragement. Later the gentiles needed alot since they didn't know the OT.

I still see dreams and visions working this way too...too benefit the church...not to reveal something new or something in the future, but to give a deeper understand of what we already have. Too many times dreams and visions are abused and used as predictions of future events that actually contradict the bible. Or send people into a panic thinking God's wrath is about to be poured out...(usually on America...makes you wonder if those living in other countries say this in regards to their own nations as much as we do!). We are far too focused on our own nation for sure!

I have heard of people also having dreams and visions that they feel means people should be called out of their churches...leave them due to the corruption in them. I don't think I can say that and that never sat right with me. To go and tell all Christians to leave their churches. I think the Holy Spirit has to deal with each person on an individual basis on that one. To me that is just too much like telling a husband or wife that since things are rough at the moment they should just give up and divorce them. As Christians we would not do that. Maybe have a separation for awhile...but not to leave for good.

Most of my dreams and visions are usually only for me personally. The things I learn are for me only...fit my life...not others. But like I said this one with the brides is a reoccurring one that has me puzzled.

Thanks for your input. :)

God bless

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 03:11 PM
But the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned.

Amen, and amen.

Edit: When reading Revelation, we have to keep in mind that John was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. The whole book is spiritual.

Good point. That is why its so symbolic. Its like the visions Ezekiel and Daniel had...all very symbolic.


ƒσяєяυииєя One thing:

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

Maybe when you be in certain place or writting the meaning of these will be given to you, for this happened to Ellen G. White. around 1800`s.

Fareyewell

I kind of hate to be compared to her...many consider her a false prophet. She was a SDA...while not all of those churches are completely out of the Christian mainstream, many are.

Acts 2:16-18

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

The last days for Jerusalem was then! Before it was destroyed.

The Adam Clarke Commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ac&chapter=002)
Verse 16. Spoken by the prophet Joel
The prophecy which he delivered so long ago is just now fulfilled; and this is another proof that Jesus whom ye have crucified is the Messiah.

Verse 17. In the last days
The time of the Messiah; and so the phrase was understood among the Jews.

I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh
Rabbi Tanchum says, "When Moses laid his hands upon Joshua, the holy blessed God said, In the time of the old text, each individual prophet prophesied; but, in the times of the Messiah, all the Israelites shall be prophets." And this they build on the prophecy quoted in this place by Peter.

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
The word prophesy is not to be understood here as implying the knowledge and discovery of future events; but signifies to teach and proclaim the great truths of God, especially those which concerned redemption by Jesus Christ.

Your young men shall see visions, various ways in which God revealed himself under the Old Testament. Sometimes he revealed himself by a symbol, which was a sufficient proof of the Divine presence: fire was the most ordinary, as it was the most expressive, symbol. Thus he appeared to Moses on Mount Horeb, and afterwards at Sinai; to Abraham, Genesis 15:1-21; to Elijah, ; 1 Kings 19:11,12. At other times he revealed himself by angelic ministry: this was frequent, especially in the days of the patriarchs, of which we find many instances in the book of Genesis.

By dreams he discovered his will in numerous instances: see the remarkable case of Joseph, Genesis 37:5,9; of Jacob, ; 28:1, Genesis 46:2, of Pharaoh, ; 41:1-7; of Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel 4:10-17. For the different ways in which God communicated the knowledge of his will to mankind

***************************
In other words this happened as further proof Jesus was the Messiah. :)

God bless

markdrums
Oct 17th 2008, 03:41 PM
There are some GREAT posts here!!
I think we all understand we can't spiritualize EVERYTHING. But at the same time, we can't LITERALIZE everything either. There's a natural balance that needs to be followed.

I believe the fall in the garden was a literal event.
Jesus' crucifixion & resurrection were literal events.
Many many more "literal" events can be talked about as well. But we have to understand when things ARE spiritualized. We need to recognize when & how metaphors are used.....

Example:
A lot of people over literalize Revelation, & say that "a third of the stars will literally fall to Earth" durung the "great tribulation". I say, that is a misinterpretation & misunderstanding. ONE star alone would completely obliterate the entire planet... let alone BILLIONS of them. The whole "thrid of the stars" thing is prophetic, apocalyptic hyperbole.

Revelation is the most spirtual, metaphoric, apocalyptic book in the Bible. It's full of visions & prophecies. The descriptions also indicate that these are spiritual / metaphoric imagery... such as: REV 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

We're not to assume that his feet are literally made of brass, burned in a furnace. Nor should we think his voice literally sounds like many waters. We've been given imagery that describes the might & the power & authority.


Getting off on the wrong foot from the beginning of the Bible, & forcing a literal translation into ALL of scripture when it doesn't belong there, leads us to problems just like the "thrid of the stars" & more.

I think we sometimes tend to build things up much bigger & more "grand" than they were intended to be; which makes it difficult for other people to comprehend & harder to believe. We over-complicate the Bible when things might actually be much more simple.

;)

Richard H
Oct 17th 2008, 03:47 PM
The purpose of dreams and visions have always been to benefit the church or the individual. Especially in the first century with the new churches who had no bibles in their hands to refer too. While many of the first Christians were Jews and knew the OT by heart...they needed alot of guidance and teaching and encouragement. Later the gentiles needed alot since they didn't know the OT.

I still see dreams and visions working this way too...too benefit the church...not to reveal something new or something in the future, but to give a deeper understand of what we already have. Too many times dreams and visions are abused and used as predictions of future events that actually contradict the bible. Or send people into a panic thinking God's wrath is about to be poured out...(usually on America...makes you wonder if those living in other countries say this in regards to their own nations as much as we do!). We are far too focused on our own nation for sure!

I have heard of people also having dreams and visions that they feel means people should be called out of their churches...leave them due to the corruption in them. I don't think I can say that and that never sat right with me. To go and tell all Christians to leave their churches. I think the Holy Spirit has to deal with each person on an individual basis on that one. To me that is just too much like telling a husband or wife that since things are rough at the moment they should just give up and divorce them. As Christians we would not do that. Maybe have a separation for awhile...but not to leave for good.

Most of my dreams and visions are usually only for me personally. The things I learn are for me only...fit my life...not others. But like I said this one with the brides is a reoccurring one that has me puzzled.

Thanks for your input. :)

God bless
I wasn't telling people to leave their churches any more than I was telling people to ask themselves, "what can we do to make things better?".

I'd hope it would be the latter.

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 04:00 PM
There are some GREAT posts here!!
I think we all understand we can't spiritualize EVERYTHING. But at the same time, we can't LITERALIZE everything either. There's a natural balance that needs to be followed.

I believe the fall in the garden was a literal event.
Jesus' crucifixion & resurrection were literal events.
Many many more "literal" events can be talked about as well. But we have to understand when things ARE spiritualized. We need to recognize when & how metaphors are used.....

Example:
A lot of people over literalize Revelation, & say that "a third of the stars will literally fall to Earth" durung the "great tribulation". I say, that is a misinterpretation & misunderstanding. ONE star alone would completely obliterate the entire planet... let alone BILLIONS of them. The whole "thrid of the stars" thing is prophetic, apocalyptic hyperbole.

Revelation is the most spirtual, metaphoric, apocalyptic book in the Bible. It's full of visions & prophecies. The descriptions also indicate that these are spiritual / metaphoric imagery... such as: REV 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

We're not to assume that his feet are literally made of brass, burned in a furnace. Nor should we think his voice literally sounds like many waters. We've been given imagery that describes the might & the power & authority.


Getting off on the wrong foot from the beginning of the Bible, & forcing a literal translation into ALL of scripture when it doesn't belong there, leads us to problems just like the "thrid of the stars" & more.

I think we sometimes tend to build things up much bigger & more "grand" than they were intended to be; which makes it difficult for other people to comprehend & harder to believe. We over-complicate the Bible when things might actually be much more simple.

;)

Yep...very true indeed! I think all of us (myself included) need to look at scriptures through the eyes of God...rather then though the eyes of men. Peter didn't understand why Jesus would allow Himself to die...as he was looking through the eyes of men and not understanding how God sees things. We have the benefit of hind sight on that one...yet we continue making the same mistakes he did and not seeing it through the eyes of God.



Richard H
I wasn't telling people to leave their churches any more than I was telling people to ask themselves, "what can we do to make things better?".

I'd hope it would be the latter.

Oh sorry Richard...I wasn't implying you were saying that...I thought you were asking me about that! Sorry for the misunderstanding on that...

God bless

Richard H
Oct 17th 2008, 04:13 PM
Oh sorry Richard...I wasn't implying you were saying that...I thought you were asking me about that! Sorry for the misunderstanding on that...

God bless
No problem, MoonGlow. :)

People didn’t understand Jonathan Swift, when he wrote “A Modest Proposal”.
But then again, I’m no Jonathan Swift. ;)

'Just tryna' get people thinkin' :hmm:

David Taylor
Oct 17th 2008, 08:16 PM
One thing:

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: Joel 2:28

Maybe when you be in certain place or writting the meaning of these will be given to you, for this happened to Ellen G. White. around 1800`s.

Fareyewell

Ellen G White was a false prophet who mislead alot of folks during the 1800s; and still quite a following of people even in the 21st century.

Guarantee that Joel 2 (nor Peter in Acts 2) were pointing forward to Ellen G White....a false prophet who misleads God's people is not who either Joel or Peter had in mind.

She taught that Jesus would come in the 1850s, taught that Jesus' atonement was not complete on the cross, taught the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep and annihilationism, claimed her prophecies to be infallible; and taught that people were living on the surface of Jupiter; just to name a few problematic areas with her teaching.

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 08:21 PM
Ellen G White was a false prophet who mislead alot of folks during the 1800s; and still quite a following of people even in the 21st century.

Guarantee that Joel 2 (nor Peter in Acts 2) were pointing forward to Ellen G White....a false prophet who misleads God's people is not who either Joel or Peter had in mind.

She taught that Jesus would come in the 1850s, taught that Jesus' atonement was not complete on the cross, taught the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep and annihilationism, claimed her prophecies to be infallible; and taught that people were living on the surface of Jupiter; just to name a few problematic areas with her teaching.

I bought one of her books by accident a couple of years ago. Some people were going door to door selling Christians books and this one seemed interesting...suppose to be about the end times. At the time I didn't know who she was...started reading it then saw a post about her on the board...:eek: So I threw out the book...hate wasting money like that.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 17th 2008, 08:26 PM
No problem, MoonGlow. :)

People didn’t understand Jonathan Swift, when he wrote “A Modest Proposal”.
But then again, I’m no Jonathan Swift. ;)

'Just tryna' get people thinkin' :hmm:

lol...

Nothing wrong with getting people to think!

We all need to do more of that. I know when I first came here I was SO spoon fed what other preachers said was true that I just assumed they were craved in stone and correct! Not bothering to 'think' it through....to go back to those scriptures and take a closer look...

When I finally realized how badly I was influenced this way (not dissing listening to preachers...but how we tend to take their words as 'gospel')...I stopped any outside influences on my bible studies for a long time. And took a fresh look at the scriptures...instead of pe-conceived ideas I had held most of my life.

It was rather painful to discover some of these preacher I held in such high esteem were wrong on some things...or that my understanding of what they were saying was wrong. Now I am much, much more careful about what I believe anyone saying...including people I admire on this board. In other words, I think...

pray

God bless

IamBill
Oct 17th 2008, 10:40 PM
I have seen these brides or bridesmaids time and time again and have come to believe they are the churches...the Christian churches gone bad...very bad. Apostate. I don't think we need to be looking for the government as our enemy or another nation or religion at this point but at ourselves. (not saying those things won't play into things)

Who wanted Christ on the cross in the first place?

Who wanted all His disciplines dead?

His own religion. (I am NOT pointing at the Jews!) We have gone beyond that now haven't we? What is our religion now? Why were all the Christian churches in the beginning of Revelation scolded except one? Why all the warnings about false prophets and teaches?

Maybe I am way off track here...maybe someone else will be guided by this and put the pieces together. After all we are made up of many parts of one body which is suppose to all work together.

God bless

But not so alone on that track ;)

moonglow
Oct 18th 2008, 12:47 AM
But not so alone on that track ;)

lol ...thanks...:hug:

God bless

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 18th 2008, 03:35 AM
Ellen G White was a false prophet who mislead alot of folks during the 1800s; and still

quite a following of people even in the 21st century...

She taught that Jesus would come in the 1850s, taught that Jesus' atonement was not complete on the cross, taught

the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep and annihilationism, claimed her prophecies to be infallible; and taught that

people were living on the surface of Jupiter; just to name a few problematic areas with her teaching.

Hello David,

Just a comment:
Well so much stuff, and so little time.

We`re not to judge a book by its cover, one even could read posts about her on a board, or wherever, but they can

say whatever thing of whomever, but if one doesn`t read, (maybe you have read) and base one`s opinion of

someone`s teaching in someone else`s saying or opinions, thinking, it could be not the truth.


She taught that Jesus would come in the 1850s,"In explaining Daniel 8:14, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," Miller,

as has been stated, adopted the generally received view that the earth is the sanctuary, and he believed that the

cleansing of the sanctuary represented the purification of the earth by fire at the coming of the Lord. When, therefore,

he found that the close of the 2300 days was definitely foretold, he concluded that this revealed the time of the

second advent. His error resulted from accepting the popular view as to what constitutes the sanctuary. G.C, 352.


Yet God accomplished His own beneficent purpose in permitting the warning of the judgment to be given just as it was.

The great day was at hand, and in His providence the people were brought to the test of a definite time, in order to

reveal to them what was in their hearts. The message was designed for the testing and purification of the church.

They were to be led to see whether their affections were set upon this world or upon Christ and heaven. They

professed to love the Saviour; now they were to prove their love. Were they ready to renounce their worldly hopes and

ambitions, and welcome with joy the advent of their Lord? The message was designed to enable them to discern their

true spiritual state; it was sent in mercy to arouse them to seek the Lord with repentance and humiliation.


The disappointment also, though the result of their own misapprehension of the message which they gave, was to be

overruled for good. It would test the hearts of those who had professed to receive the warning. In the face of their

disappointment would they rashly give up their experience and cast away their confidence in God's word? or would

they, in prayer and humility, seek to discern where they had failed to comprehend the significance of the prophecy?

How many had moved from fear, or from impulse and excitement? How many were halfhearted and unbelieving?

Multitudes professed to love the appearing of the Lord. When called to endure the scoffs and reproach of the world,

and the test of delay and disappointment, would they renounce the faith? Because they did not immediately understand

the dealings of God with them, would they cast aside truths sustained by the clearest testimony of His word?

This test would reveal the strength of those who with real faith had obeyed what they believed to be the teaching of

the word and the Spirit of God. It would teach them, as only such an experience could, the danger of accepting the

theories and interpretations of men, instead of making the Bible its own interpreter. To the children of faith the

perplexity and sorrow resulting from their error would work the needed correction. They would be led to a closer study

of the prophetic word. They would be taught to examine more carefully the foundation of their faith, and to reject

everything, however widely accepted by the Christian world, that was not founded upon the Scriptures of truth.

With these believers, as with the first disciples, that which in the hour of trial seemed dark to their understanding would

afterward be made plain. When they should see the "end of the Lord" they would know that, notwithstanding the trial

resulting from their errors, His purposes of love toward them had been steadily fulfilling. They would learn by a blessed

experience that He is "very pitiful, and of tender mercy;" that all His paths "are mercy and truth unto such as keep His

covenant and His testimonies." Great Controversy, 354.


The message of salvation has been preached in all ages; but this message is a part of the gospel which could be

proclaimed only in the last days, for only then would it be true that the hour of judgment had come. The prophecies

present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the judgment. This is especially true of the book of

Daniel. But that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was bidden to close up and seal "to the time

of the end." Not till we reach this time could a message concerning the judgment be proclaimed, based on the

fulfillment of these prophecies. But at the time of the end, says the prophet, "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge

shall be increased." Daniel 12:4.

The time of expectation passed, and Christ did not appear for the deliverance of His people. Those who with sincere

faith and love had looked for their Saviour, experienced a bitter disappointment. Yet the purposes of God were being

accomplished; He was testing the hearts of those professed to be waiting for His appearing. There were among them

many who had been actuated by no higher motive than fear. Their profession of faith had not affected their hearts or

their lives. When the expected event failed to take place, these persons declared that they were not disappointed;

they had never believed that Christ would come. They were among the first to ridicule the sorrow of the true believers.


That which led to this movement was the discovery that the decree of Artaxerxes for the restoration of Jerusalem,

which formed the starting point for the period of the 2300 days, went into effect in the autumn of the year 457 B.C.,

and not at the beginning of the year, as had been formerly believed. Reckoning from the autumn of 457, the 2300 years

terminate in the autumn of 1844.

In their investigation they learned that there is no Scripture evidence sustaining the popular view that the earth is the

sanctuary; but they found in the Bible a full explanation of the subject of the sanctuary, its nature, location, and

services; the testimony of the sacred writers being so clear and ample as to place the matter beyond all question. The

apostle Paul, in the Epistle to the Hebrews, says: "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service,

and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and

the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the holiest of

all; which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden

pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; and over it the cherubims of glory

shadowing the mercy seat." Hebrews 9:1-5.

This is the only sanctuary that ever existed on the earth, of which the Bible gives any information. This was declared

by Paul to be the sanctuary of the first covenant. But has the new covenant no sanctuary?

Turning again to the book of Hebrews, the seekers for truth found that the existence of a second, or new-covenant

sanctuary, was implied in the words of Paul already quoted: "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of

divine service, and a worldly sanctuary." And the use of the word "also" intimates that Paul has before made mention of

this sanctuary. Turning back to the beginning of the previous chapter, they read: "Now of the things which we have

spoken this is the sum: We have such an High Priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the

heavens; a Minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man." Hebrews 8:1, 2.

Here is revealed the sanctuary of the new covenant. The sanctuary of the first covenant was pitched by man, built by

Moses; this is pitched by the Lord, not by man. In that sanctuary the earthly priests performed their service; in this,

Christ, our great High Priest, ministers at God's right hand. One sanctuary was on earth, the other is in heaven.

Further, the tabernacle built by Moses was made after a pattern. The Lord directed him: "According to all that I show

thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it." And

again the charge was given, "Look that thou make them after their pattern, which was showed thee in the mount."

Exodus 25:9, 40. And Paul says that the first tabernacle "was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered

both gifts and sacrifices;" that its holy places were "patterns of things in the heavens;" that the priests who offered

gifts according to the law served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," and that "Christ is not entered

into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the

presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:9, 23; 8:5; 9:24.

In the temple in heaven, the dwelling place of God, His throne is established in righteousness and judgment. In the most

holy place is His law, the great rule of right by which all mankind are tested. The ark that enshrines the tables of the

law is covered with the mercy seat, before which Christ pleads His blood in the sinner's behalf. Thus is represented the

union of justice and mercy in the plan of human redemption. This union infinite wisdom alone could devise and infinite

power accomplish; it is a union that fills all heaven with wonder and adoration. The cherubim of the earthly sanctuary,

looking reverently down upon the mercy seat, represent the interest with which the heavenly host contemplate the

work of redemption. This is the mystery of mercy into which angels desire to look--that God can be just while He

justifies the repenting sinner and renews His intercourse with the fallen race; that Christ could stoop to raise

unnumbered multitudes from the abyss of ruin and clothe them with the spotless garments of His own righteousness to

unite with angels who have never fallen and to dwell forever in the presence of God.

But the most important question remains to be answered: What is the cleansing of the sanctuary? That there was such

a service in connection with the earthly sanctuary is stated in the Old Testament Scriptures. But can there be anything

in heaven to be cleansed? In Hebrews 9 the cleansing of both the earthly and the heavenly sanctuary is plainly taught.

"Almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore

necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these [the blood of animals]; but the

heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these" (Hebrews 9:22, 23), even the precious blood of Christ. Great Controversy.


Significantly, the Day-Star Extra dated February 7, 1846, had been devoted to the Bible study of Hiram Edson and

O.R.L. Crosier in which they set forth from the Scriptures the evidence for the understanding that the two phases of

ministry in the earthly sanctuary service were a type of Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. Consequently,

according to Edson and Crosier, events that were to come to pass, beginning on October 22, 1844, were events taking

place in heaven. {1BIO 107.4}

Sorry It got long, but If you had any quotes backing up the rest of the things, you said EGW taught, it would be useful,

my friend.


Be good

Merton
Nov 10th 2008, 11:13 PM
So having said that I would like to tell you what I saw in a vision the other day...I realize there is a dream and vision forum for this sort of thing but I hope to keep this on here for those that would know the matching verses for this better then I do. I feel this directly has to do with everything we talk about on here.

I saw the 24 elders in Heaven ..12 standing on each side of an tunnel in which ten Bridesmaids came out of all dressed in wedding gowns...these are more like brides then bridesmaids actually. I have seem similar scenes many, many times before. They walk down a walk way then up some stairs to the throne room..I already knew things were going to go bad...Have seen that before too and I didn't want to watch...I tried to look away but someone was standing beside me telling me I had to watch.

A little background quickly here. One time I saw them dancing one minute around Jesus and the next attacking Him...but the attack isn't a physical attack...its spiritual. While I was very shaken by this...not understanding...later I came to understand this is what these churches that distort God's Word do to Christ everyday. They wound Him...they abuse Him...they tear Him apart...His Words (The Word Becomes Flesh..John 1:14).

I was high above looking down at all of this..I saw mighty winged angels standing on each side of the throne room. Christ on His throne but then in comes the lovely and oh so beautiful brides with their black hearts. :cry:

This time there was no pretending ...no even fake worship...nothing nice at all and they seized Him and took Him down to the crystal lake with fire under it. The scene was horrible and next I saw Him, He was the beaten and whipped Christ with the purple robe hanging off His body as He stood barely hanging His head. One of the brides...I saw the back of her head change and mutant into something ghastly and then she was the head of the red dragon...

Revelation 12:3
Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads.

She absorbed all the other brides and their bodies became the dragons bodies and this thing...this horrible dragon roared and circled around Christ who was stills standing there, beaten and bloody. It grew and was huge and Jesus looked so small...the whole thing was very terrifying! But this man besides me kept saying to look..to watch..to see, even though I didn't want to see.

Then finally I was told to go to Him and so I ran from the high place I was down to Him and barely grabbed Him in time as He was lifted up and changed from what appeared to be this beaten defeated man into God. He became the bright morning star! (Revelation 22:16) His brightness literally blasted the dragon to dust..then the dust to ashes and then even the ashes shriveled away to nothing. And we rose up to the mountain where God the Father is in the thundering clouds.

I have seen these brides or bridesmaids time and time again and have come to believe they are the churches...the Christian churches gone bad...very bad. Apostate. I don't think we need to be looking for the government as our enemy or another nation or religion at this point but at ourselves. (not saying those things won't play into things)

Who wanted Christ on the cross in the first place?

Who wanted all His disciplines dead?

His own religion. (I am NOT pointing at the Jews!) We have gone beyond that now haven't we? What is our religion now? Why were all the Christian churches in the beginning of Revelation scolded except one? Why all the warnings about false prophets and teaches?

Maybe I am way off track here...maybe someone else will be guided by this and put the pieces together. After all we are made up of many parts of one body which is suppose to all work together.

God bless


Moonglow,

You seem to have put the pieces together yourself okay.

Isaiah chapter 4 gives what Christ does about it all before He returns, (concerning the church side of things)

Merton.

Vadelerj
Nov 11th 2008, 12:36 AM
and looking too much for the material, literal concerning the end times? And this is why so many of us have such clashing views?

As for clashing views, there are many people willing to offer opinions. There are far fewer people that consider carefully what they read/hear/see. Most people don't talk to God about these things. They also don't pay attention to the anointing feeling true words can bring when God has anointed someone for a work. To write a book to deliver messages, for example.

So many people want to read, theorize, hypothesize and to them will be the surprise!

There are many weeds in this field that you speak of and very few flowers.

God bless

Saved7
Nov 11th 2008, 02:43 AM
So having said that I would like to tell you what I saw in a vision the other day...I realize there is a dream and vision forum for this sort of thing but I hope to keep this on here for those that would know the matching verses for this better then I do. I feel this directly has to do with everything we talk about on here.

I saw the 24 elders in Heaven ..12 standing on each side of an tunnel in which ten Bridesmaids came out of all dressed in wedding gowns...these are more like brides then bridesmaids actually. I have seem similar scenes many, many times before. They walk down a walk way then up some stairs to the throne room..I already knew things were going to go bad...Have seen that before too and I didn't want to watch...I tried to look away but someone was standing beside me telling me I had to watch.

A little background quickly here. One time I saw them dancing one minute around Jesus and the next attacking Him...but the attack isn't a physical attack...its spiritual. While I was very shaken by this...not understanding...later I came to understand this is what these churches that distort God's Word do to Christ everyday. They wound Him...they abuse Him...they tear Him apart...His Words (The Word Becomes Flesh..John 1:14).

I was high above looking down at all of this..I saw mighty winged angels standing on each side of the throne room. Christ on His throne but then in comes the lovely and oh so beautiful brides with their black hearts. :cry:

This time there was no pretending ...no even fake worship...nothing nice at all and they seized Him and took Him down to the crystal lake with fire under it. The scene was horrible and next I saw Him, He was the beaten and whipped Christ with the purple robe hanging off His body as He stood barely hanging His head. One of the brides...I saw the back of her head change and mutant into something ghastly and then she was the head of the red dragon...

Revelation 12:3
Then I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads.

She absorbed all the other brides and their bodies became the dragons bodies and this thing...this horrible dragon roared and circled around Christ who was stills standing there, beaten and bloody. It grew and was huge and Jesus looked so small...the whole thing was very terrifying! But this man besides me kept saying to look..to watch..to see, even though I didn't want to see.

Then finally I was told to go to Him and so I ran from the high place I was down to Him and barely grabbed Him in time as He was lifted up and changed from what appeared to be this beaten defeated man into God. He became the bright morning star! (Revelation 22:16) His brightness literally blasted the dragon to dust..then the dust to ashes and then even the ashes shriveled away to nothing. And we rose up to the mountain where God the Father is in the thundering clouds.

I have seen these brides or bridesmaids time and time again and have come to believe they are the churches...the Christian churches gone bad...very bad. Apostate. I don't think we need to be looking for the government as our enemy or another nation or religion at this point but at ourselves. (not saying those things won't play into things)

Who wanted Christ on the cross in the first place?

Who wanted all His disciplines dead?

His own religion. (I am NOT pointing at the Jews!) We have gone beyond that now haven't we? What is our religion now? Why were all the Christian churches in the beginning of Revelation scolded except one? Why all the warnings about false prophets and teaches?

Maybe I am way off track here...maybe someone else will be guided by this and put the pieces together. After all we are made up of many parts of one body which is suppose to all work together.

God bless


I totally agree, I had even made mention of the AC coming out of the church herself at some point in the recent past. It's sad, but the church indeed can't bare to hear the truth...when it is spoken with some sort of authority out of concern for those who are choosing to follow false prophets, they attack. And the saddest part is many of whom I speak are "born again" believers.:cry:

Dani H
Nov 11th 2008, 03:44 AM
2 John 1

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1 John 2

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Antichrist spirits proclaim a false gospel under the guise of the real. It's not going to be some newfangled religion, and I honestly don't know why people are even looking for one, or guessing at it like it's something that's going to happen. It's a religion of Self under the guise of being "Christian" and having to do with "Jesus". And hey, guess what? It's already here. This is why Jesus warned that it would try to even deceive the elect if possible, because it's as close to Christianity like a cubic zirconia is to a diamond, except its essence is obviously not the same. But it looks close enough for many to fall for it. This is also why Jesus said if they say "hey look here is Jesus" not to fall for that either. The gospel the antichrist has with it, is another gospel of Jesus, without Him, but looking like it.

You figure it out ... :)

moonglow
Nov 11th 2008, 04:02 AM
2 John 1

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1 John 2

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Antichrist spirits proclaim a false gospel under the guise of the real. It's not going to be some newfangled religion, and I honestly don't know why people are even looking for one, or guessing at it like it's something that's going to happen. It's a religion of Self under the guise of being "Christian" and having to do with "Jesus". And hey, guess what? It's already here. This is why Jesus warned that it would try to even deceive the elect if possible, because it's as close to Christianity like a cubic zirconia is to a diamond, except its essence is obviously not the same. But it looks close enough for many to fall for it. This is also why Jesus said if they say "hey look here is Jesus" not to fall for that either. The gospel the antichrist has with it, is another gospel of Jesus, without Him, but looking like it.

You figure it out ... :)

Yep...especially since the bible says there is nothing new under the sun...

Your comment and Saved, and others reminded me of dream I had forgotten.
I was on a beach to a lake and people were in intense worship around a cross on which Jesus hung stuck there in the sand...all praying, singing, very into their worship...at first it appear it was the real thing...but then Jesus was standing beside me and I saw it was just a statue of Him on the cross. He and I walked right past these people yet no one saw Him...the real Jesus as they were too focused on this image. The impact of that was stunning to me. And the pain is His face was wrenching. And reminds me of this verse

Matthew 15:7-9 (NLT)
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,

8 ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’

The New King James Version has it like this:

Matthew 15:7-9

7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

The point of all of this is He REALLY is watching...He really is there among us and He really is being affected by what we do. I sometimes think we are all trying so hard to reach Him...be touched by Him, make the connection, have a prayer answered, a sense of Him...when those thing happen its fleeting...like a breeze touching our cheeks and while we have the head knowledge He is with us...we don't truly think about how what we are doing is having an affect on Him. We don't have the heart knowledge.

Yet when Jesus was here on earth He wept, He showed anger, He showed frustration, He showed love...why would He no longer react to what we are doing simply because we can't see Him?

Gee, I just gave myself something to think about...

God bless

Saved7
Nov 11th 2008, 04:24 AM
You just reminded me of something I heard preached on the radio the other day. Which I find odd, since I can't ever seem to bring myself to listen much anymore to anyone, it's all bible as you say you had done in the past. And you are right BTW, too many people seeking an experience to the point that we get lost after we have been found.
Anyway, this man said something about how we are the temple of God. The way he explained it, it really hit home. Our bodies really do not belong to us, our bodies are God's bodies, they belong to HIM! He just let's us use them (our bodies)is pretty much what I got out of it. And as such, we have absolutely no right whatsoever to sin against our bodies.
That got me thinking about how we sin in our hearts and physically every day without so much as thinking about how it must be affecting our Lord.

These bodies are HIS TEMPLE, He actually dwells in a temple that is made without hands, in a temple that we call our body.

Romans 12:1-2 is what comes to mind.

Dani H
Nov 11th 2008, 05:03 AM
You just reminded me of something I heard preached on the radio the other day. Which I find odd, since I can't ever seem to bring myself to listen much anymore to anyone, it's all bible as you say you had done in the past. And you are right BTW, too many people seeking an experience to the point that we get lost after we have been found.
Anyway, this man said something about how we are the temple of God. The way he explained it, it really hit home. Our bodies really do not belong to us, our bodies are God's bodies, they belong to HIM! He just let's us use them (our bodies)is pretty much what I got out of it. And as such, we have absolutely no right whatsoever to sin against our bodies.
That got me thinking about how we sin in our hearts and physically every day without so much as thinking about how it must be affecting our Lord.

These bodies are HIS TEMPLE, He actually dwells in a temple that is made without hands, in a temple that we call our body.

Romans 12:1-2 is what comes to mind.

So which temple do you think the Bible speaks of where the antichrist sets itself up as god, wanting to be worshipped? :)

AliveinChristDave
Nov 11th 2008, 05:24 AM
That was an interesting vision. God spoke to me that it was real.

One thing that struck me is the person you see as Christ could have been you.

The sinful church will persecute the bride. The true bride has been transformed into the image of Jesus Christ. That's why they hate it.
Just as they killed Christ they will kill those of us who are part of it.
When we're fully prepared we will be called up to the throne to be with Christ.

Marvel not that the world hates you.

JesusReignsForever
Nov 11th 2008, 05:40 AM
Maybe I am way off track here...maybe someone else will be guided by this and put the pieces together. After all we are made up of many parts of one body which is suppose to all work together.

God bless

I think you are spot on, everyone has there own edited version of the truth, people (christians) dont love each other anymore they tear each other down. No one wants to do it God's way anymore they have the own comfy ways to go about God's busines, no worries though because God is assembling his true church. Those who will worship him in spirit and in truth, those who will hold fast to his word and stand up for righteousness according to Gods very will.

Praise God!

moonglow
Nov 11th 2008, 02:41 PM
You just reminded me of something I heard preached on the radio the other day. Which I find odd, since I can't ever seem to bring myself to listen much anymore to anyone, it's all bible as you say you had done in the past. And you are right BTW, too many people seeking an experience to the point that we get lost after we have been found.


Yep...exactly..I think we are so busy trying to have 'an experience' with God whether in church or elsewhere, its all we seek after...to get that connection, that high, that spiritual experience..whatever it may be called, that the focus becomes ourselves and not really Christ. I won't say I am not guilty of that! Who doesn't want attention from their Father in Heaven?


Anyway, this man said something about how we are the temple of God. The way he explained it, it really hit home. Our bodies really do not belong to us, our bodies are God's bodies, they belong to HIM! He just let's us use them (our bodies)is pretty much what I got out of it. And as such, we have absolutely no right whatsoever to sin against our bodies.
That got me thinking about how we sin in our hearts and physically every day without so much as thinking about how it must be affecting our Lord.

These bodies are HIS TEMPLE, He actually dwells in a temple that is made without hands, in a temple that we call our body.

Romans 12:1-2 is what comes to mind.

Exactly right...:)

DaniHansen made a good point too!


AliveinChristDave That was an interesting vision. God spoke to me that it was real.

One thing that struck me is the person you see as Christ could have been you.

The sinful church will persecute the bride. The true bride has been transformed into the image of Jesus Christ. That's why they hate it.
Just as they killed Christ they will kill those of us who are part of it.
When we're fully prepared we will be called up to the throne to be with Christ.

Marvel not that the world hates you.

True..and in real life that has happened to me in churches too! Rejected and torn down by other Christians...very painful. I guess when that happens it helps us understand better what Jesus went through in being rejected by many of His own. ...though He went through far worse. Thank you for the affirmation too on my vision. :)

I think in this the main focus of the attacks will always be mostly on Jesus simply because He is the center of our beliefs...our rock, our tree and we are just the branches. While a person can injure the branches, they can recover as long as their is the main tree to grow from...but if the trunk of the tree is destroyed, the branches would be too. Of course this trunk can never be destroyed. Well the bible says Jesus is the vine...but I hope you know what I mean! :lol: I am not awake yet this morning! :rolleyes:

John 15

Jesus, the True Vine
“I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. 3 You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you.
4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.


JesusReignsForever
Quote:

Originally Posted by moonglow
Maybe I am way off track here...maybe someone else will be guided by this and put the pieces together. After all we are made up of many parts of one body which is suppose to all work together.


I think you are spot on, everyone has there own edited version of the truth, people (christians) dont love each other anymore they tear each other down. No one wants to do it God's way anymore they have the own comfy ways to go about God's busines, no worries though because God is assembling his true church. Those who will worship him in spirit and in truth, those who will hold fast to his word and stand up for righteousness according to Gods very will.

Praise God!

Thanks! And yes you are very right on this..the gathering of the true church.

God bless

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 11th 2008, 02:46 PM
It's true...that we kind of mislead ourselves looking at the wrong perspective...some how, we do see the wrong view...hope GOD will enable us to understand the spiritual side of it.;)


and looking too much for the material, literal concerning the end times? And this is why so many of us have such clashing views?

I am about to really sick my neck out here risking everyone thinking I am a loony toon...but I am going to do it anyway...:rolleyes:

I am not one of the top smarter people on here in regards to studying the end times and getting so technological like some do on here...their threads are way over my head! But I believe God reaches us where we are..in a way we can understand individually...what we need to understand. Years ago I started working on truly worshiping God in the spirit as the bible says to do:

John 4:24
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

I do this alone ...not in any church by the way. I need things quiet. Anyway I did this for a long time and really enjoyed a much deeper connection with Him and in return He has truly blessed me by giving me visions and dreams.

I would worship Him in spirit and also of course bring my concerns and prayers to Him and I tell you for years I was frustrated because He would rarely address those concerns directly...but instead show me other things that seemed to not have a thing to do with my worries or concerns. I was truly baffled by this for a long time...it wasn't that He just blew me off or thought my concerned were too minor to address but that He was trying to show me the bigger picture, so to speak. My mind was on the earthly matters...He constantly showed me the spiritual instead. And alot of what I saw was well frankly over my head too but I didn't worry about it because I knew my spirit understood and that in time my mind would understand too.

While I am shown physical things in my dreams or visions...they all have a very deep symbolic meaning to them. I tend to rattle on (in case no one notice my post counts! :lol:) and I am no different in His presences...I am constantly told to be quite and watch and listen! So I do...hard to image but I can be quiet...;)

The other day listening to the Christian radio station I heard a sermon that helped me to start understanding why Christ was using this approach with me. The story was about Joseph and what he went through...sold as a slave by his own brothers...all the trials he went through...being falsely accused and thrown in prison for years! And how he didn't focus on his situation but stayed focused on God. He didn't mull around with oh poor me I am in prison...sold as a slave...how much he missed his father...he didn't dwell on that at all but kept his eyes on God.

Everything I read on here is very literal...the worries and the concerns and how these things that might happened will affect us. If someone says something otherwise they might be told they are spiritualizing all the end times stuff. Maybe there is a medium there though?

For instance before Jesus was about to be arrested and killed and was talking to His disciples, Peter got all upset and didn't want it to happen.

Matthew 16:22-24

22 But Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him for saying such things. “Heaven forbid, Lord,” he said. “This will never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.”

While the cross was real...the meaning of it went much deeper then just the physical part of it...we all know that. Basic Christian knowledge.

What I see is people trying to understand the end times through a human point of view and possibly not from the point of view of God's. Not saying I have all the answers by any means! All I am shown is in the end Christ overcomes the dragon...(well a few other things too which I am trying to figure out)...

We all know in the end He wins...actually He has won! And maybe that is all we need to know...to focus on Him regardless of our situations...

God bless

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 03:13 PM
Yep...exactly..I think we are so busy trying to have 'an experience' with God whether in church or elsewhere, its all we seek after...to get that connection, that high, that spiritual experience..whatever it may be called, that the focus becomes ourselves and not really Christ. I won't say I am not guilty of that! Who doesn't want attention from their Father in Heaven?

...That's why praise is so worthwhile.
It takes the focus off of us and put it onto the Father or onto Jesus.
It begins one on the journey of trying to discribe and magnify the Most High.

I've learned...
Rather than seeking an experience with God, seek to know and understand God more fully.
His awesome greatness. His amazing patience. His enduring love. His boundless grace and mercy.
His splendid holiness. His power which created all things on heaven and on the earth. ...

At first the effort may seem as a chore, but over time God responds when we seek only Him.

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.
Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.
James 4:10

moonglow
Nov 11th 2008, 03:24 PM
That's why praise is so worthwhile.
It takes the focus off of us and put it onto the Father or onto Jesus.
It begins one on the journey of trying to discribe and magnify the Most High.

I've learned...
Rather than seeking an experience with God, seek to know and understand God more fully.
His awesome greatness. His amazing patience. His enduring love. His boundless grace and mercy.
His splendid holiness. His power which created all things on heaven and on the earth. ...

At first the effort may seem as a chore, but over time God responds when we seek only Him.

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom.
Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.
James 4:10

Praise is usually good...I say usually because what I am seeing in too many churches is people getting so caught up in it what they experience its more for their benefit then God's. Do you know what I mean? I don't hear much about people doing what that verse says and weeping over their sins...who would want to worship God and end up all upset and depressed because of their own short coming? They want the joy, that feeling of intense love, that connection to Him that only lifts them up and makes them feel good.


I am not explaining myself here well...sorry.

I guess the question is, is God only about feeling good about ourselves? Is that all we expect from Him...only good, joyful feelings? :hmm:

God bless

Dani H
Nov 11th 2008, 04:29 PM
Moonglow, I think your vision is spot on.

The worst treatment I've been subjected to has not been from the world, it's been from those who call themselves "Christian" and do not obey God and use Him as a front to gain the trust of others and take advantage of them. The wounds of friends go far deeper than those of strangers. It's the apostate church that is our enemy, that is where all the false teachings are coming from. And it is the most insidious thing, because you can spot the sinners from a mile away. It takes discernment and complete reliance upon God to spot the counterfeit the false gospel from the real, and to separate the goat from the sheep. It takes an act of God, and only He can do it, and only He knows who is who.

There is a reason Jesus warned us of the wolves in sheep's clothing. We would not need to be warned if there was not a real danger. They look like sheep, smell like sheep, act like sheep, but it's all a veneer. They act like shepherds but they set themselves up to that position because their flesh is in control and so they desire to control and use and manipulate others instead of truly shepherding them. The true shepherd lays his life down for his sheep, and does not use the sheep for his own gain.

It's the apostate church that is driven by the antichrist. The world and other religions are not our problem. Why? Because we are of God and have overcome them. That is why Revelation starts with a glimpse into Jesus as the Judge, and then the letter to the chuches. "To him who overcomes" ... "to him who overcomes" ... "to him who overcomes." How do we overcome? By the blood of the Lamb, the word of our testimony and not loving our lives unto death. We are worried about the antichrist outside, and right there they all are, in the churches, preaching a false gospel, right under our noses, and we are blinded to it all because we have been diverted by false alarms and false teachings.

Why would Paul have to exhort us to make sure that we are in the faith, and to make our calling and election sure? Because he does not want us tripped up by assumption, but to come to the knowledge of the truth. You cannot assume that just because you've stepped inside a church building or listening to a sermon or reading some book by a teacher or preacher, that it is of God, and that you are safe. You must seek out Jesus for yourself, and get to know Him for yourself, and be so engrossed in the real that you are safe from the fake and can spot it from a mile away, and warn others.

Complacency and assumption are probably our worst enemies as believers, and we have to be real careful to not be ensnared by either.

We have to remember that it wasn't the Romans who plotted Jesus' death. It was the religious leaders and those who claimed "God" yet used Him as a front to control others.

Some things never change. :)

Oregongrown
Nov 11th 2008, 04:57 PM
Such an excellent read, thank you thank you sister!!!!!!! God bless you this day, your sister in Christ, denise:hug:



and looking too much for the material, literal concerning the end times? And this is why so many of us have such clashing views?

I am about to really sick my neck out here risking everyone thinking I am a loony toon...but I am going to do it anyway...:rolleyes:

I am not one of the top smarter people on here in regards to studying the end times and getting so technological like some do on here...their threads are way over my head! But I believe God reaches us where we are..in a way we can understand individually...what we need to understand. Years ago I started working on truly worshiping God in the spirit as the bible says to do:

John 4:24
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

I do this alone ...not in any church by the way. I need things quiet. Anyway I did this for a long time and really enjoyed a much deeper connection with Him and in return He has truly blessed me by giving me visions and dreams.

I would worship Him in spirit and also of course bring my concerns and prayers to Him and I tell you for years I was frustrated because He would rarely address those concerns directly...but instead show me other things that seemed to not have a thing to do with my worries or concerns. I was truly baffled by this for a long time...it wasn't that He just blew me off or thought my concerned were too minor to address but that He was trying to show me the bigger picture, so to speak. My mind was on the earthly matters...He constantly showed me the spiritual instead. And alot of what I saw was well frankly over my head too but I didn't worry about it because I knew my spirit understood and that in time my mind would understand too.

While I am shown physical things in my dreams or visions...they all have a very deep symbolic meaning to them. I tend to rattle on (in case no one notice my post counts! :lol:) and I am no different in His presences...I am constantly told to be quite and watch and listen! So I do...hard to image but I can be quiet...;)

The other day listening to the Christian radio station I heard a sermon that helped me to start understanding why Christ was using this approach with me. The story was about Joseph and what he went through...sold as a slave by his own brothers...all the trials he went through...being falsely accused and thrown in prison for years! And how he didn't focus on his situation but stayed focused on God. He didn't mull around with oh poor me I am in prison...sold as a slave...how much he missed his father...he didn't dwell on that at all but kept his eyes on God.

Everything I read on here is very literal...the worries and the concerns and how these things that might happened will affect us. If someone says something otherwise they might be told they are spiritualizing all the end times stuff. Maybe there is a medium there though?

For instance before Jesus was about to be arrested and killed and was talking to His disciples, Peter got all upset and didn't want it to happen.

Matthew 16:22-24

22 But Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him for saying such things. “Heaven forbid, Lord,” he said. “This will never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.”

While the cross was real...the meaning of it went much deeper then just the physical part of it...we all know that. Basic Christian knowledge.

What I see is people trying to understand the end times through a human point of view and possibly not from the point of view of God's. Not saying I have all the answers by any means! All I am shown is in the end Christ overcomes the dragon...(well a few other things too which I am trying to figure out)...

We all know in the end He wins...actually He has won! And maybe that is all we need to know...to focus on Him regardless of our situations...

God bless

manichunter
Nov 11th 2008, 05:08 PM
and looking too much for the material, literal concerning the end times? And this is why so many of us have such clashing views?

I am about to really sick my neck out here risking everyone thinking I am a loony toon...but I am going to do it anyway...:rolleyes:

I am not one of the top smarter people on here in regards to studying the end times and getting so technological like some do on here...their threads are way over my head! But I believe God reaches us where we are..in a way we can understand individually...what we need to understand. Years ago I started working on truly worshiping God in the spirit as the bible says to do:

John 4:24
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

I do this alone ...not in any church by the way. I need things quiet. Anyway I did this for a long time and really enjoyed a much deeper connection with Him and in return He has truly blessed me by giving me visions and dreams.

I would worship Him in spirit and also of course bring my concerns and prayers to Him and I tell you for years I was frustrated because He would rarely address those concerns directly...but instead show me other things that seemed to not have a thing to do with my worries or concerns. I was truly baffled by this for a long time...it wasn't that He just blew me off or thought my concerned were too minor to address but that He was trying to show me the bigger picture, so to speak. My mind was on the earthly matters...He constantly showed me the spiritual instead. And alot of what I saw was well frankly over my head too but I didn't worry about it because I knew my spirit understood and that in time my mind would understand too.

While I am shown physical things in my dreams or visions...they all have a very deep symbolic meaning to them. I tend to rattle on (in case no one notice my post counts! :lol:) and I am no different in His presences...I am constantly told to be quite and watch and listen! So I do...hard to image but I can be quiet...;)

The other day listening to the Christian radio station I heard a sermon that helped me to start understanding why Christ was using this approach with me. The story was about Joseph and what he went through...sold as a slave by his own brothers...all the trials he went through...being falsely accused and thrown in prison for years! And how he didn't focus on his situation but stayed focused on God. He didn't mull around with oh poor me I am in prison...sold as a slave...how much he missed his father...he didn't dwell on that at all but kept his eyes on God.

Everything I read on here is very literal...the worries and the concerns and how these things that might happened will affect us. If someone says something otherwise they might be told they are spiritualizing all the end times stuff. Maybe there is a medium there though?

For instance before Jesus was about to be arrested and killed and was talking to His disciples, Peter got all upset and didn't want it to happen.

Matthew 16:22-24

22 But Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him for saying such things. “Heaven forbid, Lord,” he said. “This will never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.”

While the cross was real...the meaning of it went much deeper then just the physical part of it...we all know that. Basic Christian knowledge.

What I see is people trying to understand the end times through a human point of view and possibly not from the point of view of God's. Not saying I have all the answers by any means! All I am shown is in the end Christ overcomes the dragon...(well a few other things too which I am trying to figure out)...

We all know in the end He wins...actually He has won! And maybe that is all we need to know...to focus on Him regardless of our situations...

God bless

GOD does appoint the kings of every nation. Why he appoints a king, we do not always know. He appointed Hitler just like He appointed G.W. Bush, and now appoints Obama. Why, I do not know. I would like to know if God told somebody so........... speak up prophet...... I know you are out there withholding the message........... don't be afraid of christian ridicule and criticism...... I want tell anybody (fingers crossed)............. LOL :lol:

moonglow
Nov 11th 2008, 05:40 PM
Moonglow, I think your vision is spot on.

The worst treatment I've been subjected to has not been from the world, it's been from those who call themselves "Christian" and do not obey God and use Him as a front to gain the trust of others and take advantage of them. The wounds of friends go far deeper than those of strangers. It's the apostate church that is our enemy, that is where all the false teachings are coming from. And it is the most insidious thing, because you can spot the sinners from a mile away. It takes discernment and complete reliance upon God to spot the counterfeit the false gospel from the real, and to separate the goat from the sheep. It takes an act of God, and only He can do it, and only He knows who is who.

There is a reason Jesus warned us of the wolves in sheep's clothing. We would not need to be warned if there was not a real danger. They look like sheep, smell like sheep, act like sheep, but it's all a veneer. They act like shepherds but they set themselves up to that position because their flesh is in control and so they desire to control and use and manipulate others instead of truly shepherding them. The true shepherd lays his life down for his sheep, and does not use the sheep for his own gain.

It's the apostate church that is driven by the antichrist. The world and other religions are not our problem. Why? Because we are of God and have overcome them. That is why Revelation starts with a glimpse into Jesus as the Judge, and then the letter to the chuches. "To him who overcomes" ... "to him who overcomes" ... "to him who overcomes." How do we overcome? By the blood of the Lamb, the word of our testimony and not loving our lives unto death. We are worried about the antichrist outside, and right there they all are, in the churches, preaching a false gospel, right under our noses, and we are blinded to it all because we have been diverted by false alarms and false teachings.

Why would Paul have to exhort us to make sure that we are in the faith, and to make our calling and election sure? Because he does not want us tripped up by assumption, but to come to the knowledge of the truth. You cannot assume that just because you've stepped inside a church building or listening to a sermon or reading some book by a teacher or preacher, that it is of God, and that you are safe. You must seek out Jesus for yourself, and get to know Him for yourself, and be so engrossed in the real that you are safe from the fake and can spot it from a mile away, and warn others.

Complacency and assumption are probably our worst enemies as believers, and we have to be real careful to not be ensnared by either.

We have to remember that it wasn't the Romans who plotted Jesus' death. It was the religious leaders and those who claimed "God" yet used Him as a front to control others.

Some things never change. :)

Excellent post! Very, very good. We need to be watching the church...and especially ourselves, instead of all of these other things.


Oregongrown Such an excellent read, thank you thank you sister!!!!!!! God bless you this day, your sister in Christ, denise

Thank...I just realized I had posted...I am about to sick my neck out here..instead of 'stick' my neck out...:rolleyes: One of these years I will learn how to spell...:cool:


manichunter: GOD does appoint the kings of every nation. Why he appoints a king, we do not always know. He appointed Hitler just like He appointed G.W. Bush, and now appoints Obama. Why, I do not know. I would like to know if God told somebody so........... speak up prophet...... I know you are out there withholding the message........... don't be afraid of christian ridicule and criticism...... I want tell anybody (fingers crossed)............. LOL

Maybe you just have to wait and see...;) Have faith, trust God...

God bless

Richard H
Nov 11th 2008, 07:06 PM
Praise is usually good...I say usually because what I am seeing in too many churches is people getting so caught up in it what they experience its more for their benefit then God's. Do you know what I mean? I don't hear much about people doing what that verse says and weeping over their sins...who would want to worship God and end up all upset and depressed because of their own short coming? They want the joy, that feeling of intense love, that connection to Him that only lifts them up and makes them feel good.


I am not explaining myself here well...sorry.

I guess the question is, is God only about feeling good about ourselves? Is that all we expect from Him...only good, joyful feelings? :hmm:

God blessI tend to agree with you about some "worship services", moonglow.

I was speaking from my own experience in being alone with Him.
It's so personal and there is no way to put on a face for the croud.
I cannot hide myself from Him, and so before I can do anything - I must repent and also forgive if needed.

I don't rush into His presence - but quiet myself and begin thinking more about Him and less about myself.
There is a feeling of connection - but that is not my motivation.
And at this point, a watery eye is not uncommon - even saying grace.

I can't get that sort of intimacy in a church service.

Richard

Saved7
Nov 11th 2008, 07:08 PM
So which temple do you think the Bible speaks of where the antichrist sets itself up as god, wanting to be worshipped? :)

Could be either the human body, which would make him the AC who has descrated the temple simply by letting satan enter in and demanding worship in God's own temple. Or it could be that AND a literal physically built by hands of the jews who don't believe in Christ. Either way it goes, the temple HAS to be a body, a human body, it could also include a temple that shouldn't have been erected anyway; but being the unbelievers that they (the jews) are, it wouldn't surprise me to see a (desecrated temple) desecrated body enter into the jewish temple and desecrate that as well.

BTW, just wanted to make a note of wierdness here. While I was typing that last part about the descrated temple/body entering into the jewish temple, all the word's I typed just dissappeared from that point on, and I had to retype that last section!!!

Don't know if I gave you reps for this thread, but I just tried to and it said I had to spread the love first.:rolleyes: Oh well, at least you know that you got reps in my heart for it.:hug:

moonglow
Nov 11th 2008, 09:13 PM
I tend to agree with you about some "worship services", moonglow.

I was speaking from my own experience in being alone with Him.
It's so personal and there is no way to put on a face for the croud.
I cannot hide myself from Him, and so before I can do anything - I must repent and also forgive if needed.

I don't rush into His presence - but quiet myself and begin thinking more about Him and less about myself.
There is a feeling of connection - but that is not my motivation.
And at this point, a watery eye is not uncommon - even saying grace.

I can't get that sort of intimacy in a church service.

Richard

Ok thanks for explaining...and I know exactly how you feel...:hug:

Its an intensely private thing...very personal..:)

God bless

Indueseason
Nov 12th 2008, 12:12 AM
:hug: What a great thread moonglow! Many wise words from everyone! I agree that too many people are seeking an experience with God over truly getting to know Him. I do understand why and have been there myself when I was a younger Christian. Like DaniHansen, I have experienced the deepest wounds from those who wear the name of Christ. Just this year I have been rejected by many believers, both in my church and online, just because my biblical understanding of some things changed. Christianity is just a badge for many who feel no need to try and live up to the name. It seems like there are many sinful men standing in the Holy Place!




Richard said
I've learned...
Rather than seeking an experience with God, seek to know and understand God more fully.
His awesome greatness. His amazing patience. His enduring love. His boundless grace and mercy.
His splendid holiness. His power which created all things on heaven and on the earth. ...



These are very wise and valuable words! When we seek to understand this truly awesome God we serve, we will experience the greatest of experiences!! No emotional feeling however good, can come close to fully realising just how holy, righteous, gracious, merciful, faithful, immense, mighty, longsuffering and loving our awesome God is!!! :pp