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cwb
Oct 18th 2008, 03:04 PM
I know there are alot of posters here who watch world events for signs as to when the tribulation might be starting. I just had a question about that. The first trumpet in Revelation says



Rev 8:7
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


When the first trumpet sounds, one third of the trees get burned up. Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to just watch for something happening that one third of the trees gets burned up. That obviously has not happened yet. Wouldn't it be easier to just watch for that to happen rather than every time the dow go down to try to guess whether it is somehow end times related. Or every time Israel signs any kind of agreement to start saying "oh this is it". Or every time any war breaks out in the middle east to say it has to be the coming of the great tribulation. It seems to me it would just be easier to look for when one third of the trees get burned up and then we would know the first trumpet has blown.

ananias
Oct 18th 2008, 05:54 PM
I know there are alot of posters here who watch world events for signs as to when the tribulation might be starting. I just had a question about that. The first trumpet in Revelation says



When the first trumpet sounds, one third of the trees get burned up. Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to just watch for something happening that one third of the trees gets burned up. That obviously has not happened yet. Wouldn't it be easier to just watch for that to happen rather than every time the dow go down to try to guess whether it is somehow end times related. Or every time Israel signs any kind of agreement to start saying "oh this is it". Or every time any war breaks out in the middle east to say it has to be the coming of the great tribulation. It seems to me it would just be easier to look for when one third of the trees get burned up and then we would know the first trumpet has blown.

Will we understand what the first trumpet refers to when the first trumpet sounds? What if the trees and grass is symbolic of events that have already come and gone?

Christians don't agree on the meaning of the seals or the trumpets, so what one man sees as the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, another man's sees as the first man's misinterpretation of Bible prophecy. Will we fail to recognize the signs?

Personally, when I see ten rulers rise up in the world who have "one mind", and who go to war against (a) the Lamb (Rev.17: 14); and (b) "Babylon the Great" (Rev.17: 16), then I will know for sure we are in the end times.

(No, I don't believe the trees and grass are symbolic - I think they may be symbolic, but I have no idea)

ananias

vinsight4u8
Oct 18th 2008, 06:01 PM
What if the first five trumpets deal mainly with the land of Israel?
Satan is cast down by the 5th trumpet and goes after the woman ///Israel - then comes the 6th trumpet when he will go after her remnant - as in the church.

///those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ
///so only the 6th trumpet starts the great tribulation against the church

cwb
Oct 18th 2008, 06:02 PM
Will we understand what the first trumpet refers to when the first trumpet sounds? What if the trees and grass is symbolic of events that have already come and gone?





I think it is wrong to arbitrarily call something symbolic in scripture when God gives no indication that it is symbolic nor gives an explanation as to what the symbol means. If you can show me somewhere in scripture where trees and grass are symbolic of something else and what the symbol means, then I might buy into the idea that it is smbolic.

third hero
Oct 18th 2008, 06:07 PM
I know there are alot of posters here who watch world events for signs as to when the tribulation might be starting. I just had a question about that. The first trumpet in Revelation says



When the first trumpet sounds, one third of the trees get burned up. Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to just watch for something happening that one third of the trees gets burned up. That obviously has not happened yet. Wouldn't it be easier to just watch for that to happen rather than every time the dow go down to try to guess whether it is somehow end times related. Or every time Israel signs any kind of agreement to start saying "oh this is it". Or every time any war breaks out in the middle east to say it has to be the coming of the great tribulation. It seems to me it would just be easier to look for when one third of the trees get burned up and then we would know the first trumpet has blown.

I agree with you, cwb. it is better for us to match the actual signs of His return to actual events, and not delve too much into current events that may be devastating, but not directly related to the Return of the Lord.

cwb
Oct 18th 2008, 06:07 PM
What if the first five trumpets deal mainly with the land of Israel?


I would agree with you that the first five trumpets could deal mainly with Israel. However I do not know of anything that has happened in Isreal that could qualify as any of the trumpets having been sounded.

cwb
Oct 18th 2008, 06:15 PM
I agree with you, cwb.

I am shocked.



it is better for us to match the actual signs of His return to actual events, and not delve too much into current events that may be devastating, but not directly related to the Return of the Lord.


When reading the book of Revelation recently, it occured to me that quite a few "natural" things happen prior to things people do. For example, it seems that the first four trumpets deal with events that occur in nature rather than people might be doing. Just wondering if you agree with that.

third hero
Oct 18th 2008, 06:19 PM
I am shocked.



When reading the book of Revelation recently, it occured to me that quite a few "natural" things happen prior to things people do. For example, it seems that the first four trumpets deal with events that occur in nature rather than people might be doing. Just wondering if you agree with that.

I mostly agree with you. The first seals, with the exception for the first one, are mainly signs that ocur in nature. (You know the rider of the white horse thing again... we won't get into that one and derail the thread). In fact, even the sixth seal, the seventh, and the first four trumpets are all signs that happpen to nature first, long before the second sign that is atributed to men, which is the locust attacking the wicked. So, yes, I do agree with you.

ananias
Oct 18th 2008, 06:20 PM
Yes you are right about not going beyond what is written - but "watching" is what Jesus told us to do, and if we believe that certain specific events may be the bricks that are laying the foundation for the fuflillment of prophetic scripture, there's no crime in that, neither is there any crime in discussing it on a Christian Forum under a board calls "End Times".

You are right - but there's also a little too much of a "banning" attitude sometimes where some Christians want to ban the views of others, or bully the others into not expressing their views or even asking the "wrong" questions. That's not what a discussion/debate Forum is meant for.

ananias

cwb
Oct 18th 2008, 07:13 PM
Yes you are right about not going beyond what is written - but "watching" is what Jesus told us to do, and if we believe that certain specific events may be the bricks that are laying the foundation for the fuflillment of prophetic scripture, there's no crime in that, neither is there any crime in discussing it on a Christian Forum under a board calls "End Times".

You are right - but there's also a little too much of a "banning" attitude sometimes where some Christians want to ban the views of others, or bully the others into not expressing their views or even asking the "wrong" questions. That's not what a discussion/debate Forum is meant for.

ananias

I am certainly not trying to "ban" anything. If that is how you took this thread I started, that is certainly not my intent. You are right. This is a discussion/debate forum. That is why I started this thread - to discuss what we should be looking for. As I stated in this thread, until I see some of the natural things occur that are stated in Revelation, I do not feel I should get too shook up and call every event I see an end times event. Am I being "bullied' or "banned" from discussing this?;)

vinsight4u8
Oct 18th 2008, 07:31 PM
I would agree with you that the first five trumpets could deal mainly with Israel. However I do not know of anything that has happened in Isreal that could qualify as any of the trumpets having been sounded.

I don't believe any of the trumpets will begin till we get to the time of the fourth seal rider being opened. This man will be the ac - the death and desires to as hell Chaldean man as foretold in Habakkuk 2 - that at the end it shall speak.

I do see some of the seals as over though.
seal 1 and seal 2

seal 1 - What would fit biblically is to let this guy be the first ruler of Iraq. The one that went forth to possess the land and begin the kingdom.

Just as it was when Israel began her nation - the riders - the governors were said to ride on white - judge righteously.
possess the land - takes the spirit of wise and understanding men

Just as shown in Zec. 6 where the colors are shown to be spirits -
white - is a spirit
white horses are shown to represent a spirit

a spirit of a ruler of the land
With wisdom and understanding - a crown is to be given to an individual.
///just as in the first seal - the rider on white - gets a crown given to him

Moses also foretold of the seals - if we just go look at Deuteronomy 32:34.
sealed
laid up
in store
with Me

The prophecy is telling about the endtime nation that will come against Israel as her enemy. At the end of this time - God will avenge the blood of His servants and take down that land - as happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

David161099
Oct 18th 2008, 07:46 PM
I know there are alot of posters here who watch world events for signs as to when the tribulation might be starting. I just had a question about that. The first trumpet in Revelation says



When the first trumpet sounds, one third of the trees get burned up. Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to just watch for something happening that one third of the trees gets burned up. That obviously has not happened yet. Wouldn't it be easier to just watch for that to happen rather than every time the dow go down to try to guess whether it is somehow end times related. Or every time Israel signs any kind of agreement to start saying "oh this is it". Or every time any war breaks out in the middle east to say it has to be the coming of the great tribulation. It seems to me it would just be easier to look for when one third of the trees get burned up and then we would know the first trumpet has blown.

You forgot to mention the unwritten law of End Times Prophecy..the thing that God Was supposed to add to the Book Of revelations......Did it happen to the USA? Because...then it's important. :)

On a more serious note, I tend to not think of End times at all. It's not even a worry for me. I'm certaintly not worried about what Happens to my country Australia.

I worry about trying to stick to the path that Jesus laid out in the Godpels.

So I agree with you - let it happen when it happens. If it's meant to come? What does worrying about it achieve?

Veretax
Oct 18th 2008, 09:52 PM
Jesus told us to be watching the times and seasons. WHy would he say this if we cannot know what is coming? I think watching should keep us honest, keep us humble, and remind us that time is short in this life and we need to be out winning the Lost for him now. That may be easier said than done, but while we may never know the exact instant in time, that doesn't mean we can't notice the winds starting to move a particular direction and marvel as the Storm begins to break. The bible likens the Tribulation to a woman in labor. For her to be in labor, she must first show signs of being pregnant. Therefore I do believe we will see many signs that the time is near, but we may not know exactly how close the labor pains begin.

moonglow
Oct 18th 2008, 09:55 PM
I know there are alot of posters here who watch world events for signs as to when the tribulation might be starting. I just had a question about that. The first trumpet in Revelation says



When the first trumpet sounds, one third of the trees get burned up. Wouldn't it be better (and easier) to just watch for something happening that one third of the trees gets burned up. That obviously has not happened yet. Wouldn't it be easier to just watch for that to happen rather than every time the dow go down to try to guess whether it is somehow end times related. Or every time Israel signs any kind of agreement to start saying "oh this is it". Or every time any war breaks out in the middle east to say it has to be the coming of the great tribulation. It seems to me it would just be easier to look for when one third of the trees get burned up and then we would know the first trumpet has blown.

I think this is a good question for those that do take Revelation that literally. How could we miss even hearing the trumpets? Or seeing fiery hail from the sky or any number of these great signs? It would be pretty obvious it was happening, instead of watching for these hidden signs in the news...

The thing is alot of Revelation is symbolic and as someone pointed out on another post if people are looking for hundreds of stars to fall to earth...well if one real star hit us it would all be over. The whole earth would be destroyed. The key is understanding prophetic language...what is literally going to happen and what is symbolic in the bible.

I found one article that explains this a little bit:

THE LANGUAGE OF PROPHECY (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2001)

If one is to interpret Bible prophecy accurately, he must recognize that language of predictive literature can be either literal or figurative. But how does one determine the nature of prophetic terminology? In some instances common sense will dictate the character of the prophecy. If a literal view implies an impossibility or an absurdity, it obviously is figurative. The context frequently will shed light on the situation. In many instances, the issue will be settled by how the New Testament writers (who quote or cite the prophecies) viewed the matter. When Old Testament writers declared that Christ would be the offspring of Abraham (Genesis 22:18), or that He would be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10), they made straightforward predictions that were fulfilled literally.

However, when Isaiah announced that John the Baptizer would “make level in the desert a highway for our God” (40:3), he was not suggesting that John would engineer a freeway project in the Palestinian wilderness; rather, the language was a symbolic description of John’s preparatory work preliminary to the ministry of Jesus (cf. Matthew 3:1ff.). When the prophet foretold that “the lion shall eat straw like an ox” (Isaiah 11:7), he was not suggesting that Jehovah intended to redesign the dental/digestive processes of the animal kingdom in the alleged “millennial” age. He was figuratively suggesting the peaceful atmosphere that would be characteristic of the church of Christ as the various nations flowed into it (cf. Isaiah 11:10 and Romans 15:12). Thus, it is vital that the nature of the language in biblical prophecy be identified correctly.

Adam Clarks bible commentary on Matthew 24 say this:

Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; ; Ezekiel 32:7,8, Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9,10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7,8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30,31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth-darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

I won't say I have it all figured out...there are as many views on these trumpets and seals in the book of Revelation as their are people I think! But the bible usually explains itself. So I think instead of looking at the news to show us the signs we need to look at the bible instead.

In the OT we see things happen in a very literal way:



Exodus 9:22-24

22 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that hail may fall on all the land of Egypt, on man and on beast and on every plant of the field, throughout the land of Egypt."

23 Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt.

24So there was hail, and fire flashing continually in the midst of the hail, very severe, such as had not been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.

In the NT we see the literal become the spiritual...which has much more depth to it then the literal. Like in the OT people physically died for their sins...but we know death comes from rejecting God...not having salvation. Those without Christ perish (die) but it doesn't mean they just drop physically dead...we all know that. It means they die spiritually.

The NT speaks of the things in the OT being a 'shadow' of things to come in a number of different verses.

So whether these things in Revelation will literally physical happen...we need to figure out. Could we even survive a third of everything burning up at all?

Revelation 8:7
The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

We have probably destroyed throughout history a third of all the grass and trees as it is and its threatening to cause all sorts of problems with nature..which then in turn affects us too.

Just some things to consider.

God bless

ananias
Oct 18th 2008, 10:06 PM
I am certainly not trying to "ban" anything. If that is how you took this thread I started, that is certainly not my intent. You are right. This is a discussion/debate forum. That is why I started this thread - to discuss what we should be looking for. As I stated in this thread, until I see some of the natural things occur that are stated in Revelation, I do not feel I should get too shook up and call every event I see an end times event. Am I being "bullied' or "banned" from discussing this?;)

You're right - and I had in mind certain things that were said in an arrogant way by a certain person in another thread (it wasn't you). I'm Sorry I said what I said here in your thread - it's just that in a similar thread just recently, the words "mutual respect" seemed to mean little, judging by a comment I saw about the views of those who disagree with the view expressed by you.

ananias

Veretax
Oct 18th 2008, 10:11 PM
Falling stars could picture a number of things. Not the least of which include:


Asteroids
Meteor Showers
Comets


Also, it is possible with the events described in revelation that an Asteroid could strike the earth. If it was sufficiently large enough it would produce the very earthquake you see referenced, and if it impacted with enough force it could change the earth's poles, to shift them. The North star, Polaris would probably still be in the same spot, but earth's position and crust would have moved. If the poles shifted some of the stars in the sky could be seen as falling to the earth (horizon), and some would be gone and not seen again with respect to say Jerusalem.

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 04:25 AM
I think this is a good question for those that do take Revelation that literally. How could we miss even hearing the trumpets? Or seeing fiery hail from the sky or any number of these great signs? It would be pretty obvious it was happening, instead of watching for these hidden signs in the news...

The thing is alot of Revelation is symbolic and as someone pointed out on another post if people are looking for hundreds of stars to fall to earth...well if one real star hit us it would all be over. The whole earth would be destroyed. The key is understanding prophetic language...what is literally going to happen and what is symbolic in the bible.



I know alot of Revelation is symbolic. Alot of Revelation is literal also. Many times when God uses a symbol he explains the symbol either in the passage or somewhere else in scripture. For example God explains the symbol of stars in Rev. 1:20



The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Since God explains here that stars are symbolic of angels we can conclude that stars could be symbolic of angels in other passages.

Now back to the first trumpet:



The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


If "trees" and "grass" are symbolic, it is not explained in the passage itself what "trees" and "grass" are symbolic of. If we are to conclude that "trees" and "grass" are symbolic, surely God would explain somewhere in scripture what the symbol means.............