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Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 05:03 PM
Why are you blatantly denying what is taught in this passage (and others):

2 Cor 7
9Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The sorrow is attributted to God in the above referenced verse Eric. This is once again God manifesting his sorrow/emotions through a man, piercing his heart with it, and willing a man to come to him and lead him to salvation. Man does not lead himself, God softens the heart. This does not negate man's choice, it just exemplifies God's ultimate Will being active within every situation.

God bless,

Stephen

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 05:16 PM
Eric,

It is as free as it can be while in spiritual bondage to Satan, sin and death. The only free choice fallen man can make is according to his/her nature/natural desire. Men who remain dead in trespasses and sins simply do not naturally desire to come to Christ for life.Right, but after people hear the word of God and feel the Spirit speaking to their hearts and consciences regarding their sin and need to repent then it becomes a different story. Once people hear the word of God and feel the Spirit speaking to their hearts regarding their sin then it is up to them how they respond.

Some respond like the publican in Luke 18:9-14 by humbling themselves, acknowledging that they are a sinner and asking God for mercy while others like the Pharisee in the same passage decide that they are fine as they are and do not need to repent and believe in order to be saved. It doesn't say anything in that passage about the publican first being regenerated before he decided to acknowledge His lost, sinful state and ask God for mercy.


If they could come to God through their own free will then why did Christ have to die that they might live?Because without the shedding of Christ's blood there would be no forgiveness of sins. No one is trying to say that man could be saved apart from Christ's sacrifice. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. He made the way for the whole world to be saved if they would repent and put their faith and trust in Christ.


Simple answer...because no man remaining dead in trespasses and sins can freely choose to come to Christ for life. It takes a supernatural God, extending to them His supernatural grace through His supernatural Word and Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RWThis is Christ's offer to those who are dead in trespasses and sins:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 05:28 PM
The sorrow is attributted to God in the above referenced verse Eric.No, it is not. It has to do with man being sorry for his sins. Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.


This is once again God manifesting his sorrow/emotions through a man, piercing his heart with it, and willing a man to come to him and lead him to salvation. Man does not lead himself, God softens the heart. This does not negate man's choice, it just exemplifies God's ultimate Will being active within every situation. Let's include a couple more verses to see it in its proper context.

2 Cor 7
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

In no way, shape or form does this passage attribute the sorrow as being God's. What did God have to be sorry about? It is the ones that Paul was writing to that were sorrowful over their sins. It is a choice for someone to be sorry for their sins or not. The publican in Luke 18:9-14 was sorry for his sins and asked for mercy while the Pharisee was not sorry for his sins and acted like he was perfect and had his own righteousness. They each made different choices. Where does it suggest that each could not help but make the choices that they did?

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 05:30 PM
Why are you blatantly denying what is taught in this passage (and others):

2 Cor 7
9Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Eric,

Read the passage in context! Paul is speaking to believers. God approves the kind of sorrow expressed here. This is not saying you will be saved, but rather proving that you are saved because you are expressing Godly sorrow over sin. In other words since you are saved, you show godly sorrow which leads to salvation in the fullness of time. That's why Paul states that "the sorrow of the world produces death." Godly sorrow is repentance to life, worldly sorrow produces death, not repentance to salvation or eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 05:36 PM
Definitely agree here with you. I think we're moving on the right track with this one. So can we agree that human choice, God's faith, God's mercy, and God's justice are manifestations of God's ultimate Will/plan which brings men to salvation? That's a vague question, so let me just ask you a question for clarification. Do you believe that God offers salvation to all people and that all people have the ability to either choose to repent and believe the gospel or to reject it? If not, then we are not in agreement.

Also, what is "God's faith"? Do you mean His faithfulness or something else?

Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 05:42 PM
No, it is not. It has to do with man being sorry for his sins. Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

Let's include a couple more verses to see it in its proper context.

2 Cor 7
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

In no way, shape or form does this passage attribute the sorrow as being God's. What did God have to be sorry about? It is the ones that Paul was writing to that were sorrowful over their sins. It is a choice for someone to be sorry for their sins or not. The publican in Luke 18:9-14 was sorry for his sins and asked for mercy while the Pharisee was not sorry for his sins and acted like he was perfect and had his own righteousness. They each made different choices. Where does it suggest that each could not help but make the choices that they did?

The Publican's heart was pierced by God and this is what brought him to repentence. The Pharisees heart was not pierced by God, and he did not recognize himself as a sinner. In 2 Cor 7 Verse 8 it even attributes the very sorrow that the Publican was feeling to God himself by calling it "godly sorrow" and then stating that "worldly sorrow" leads to death. Why would Paul make this distinction between the two types of sorrow, if what brought on the sorrow itself came by the will of man.

Now let's get back to the whole grieving thing..which is what I think your whole direction is with quoting this passage(hopefully along with showing that humility is a Godly attribute as well) Did God know who he would and who he would not forgive of their sins based on this passage?

Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 05:57 PM
That's a vague question, so let me just ask you a question for clarification. Do you believe that God offers salvation to all people and that all people have the ability to either choose to repent and believe the gospel or to reject it? If not, then we are not in agreement.


God is a savior of all men as referenced in Timothy 4:10. People can choose to repent. No disagreement with you on that. It is ultimately through God's intervening, or his grace which brings on this repentence.(Ephesians 2:8-9)



Also, what is "God's faith"? Do you mean His faithfulness or something else?


Yes. God's faithfulness is necessary for salvation. Our faith may falter at times, but God's faith remains despite us failing. Thank the Lord for that. I'm not stuck in the constant loop of thinking that if I make one mistake with my own faith, God is going to jump on me.

God bless,

Stephen

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 05:59 PM
Eric,

Read the passage in context!I am. You need to take your own advice, Roger.


Paul is speaking to believers.But they were not saved until after they repented. Is there something about repentance leading to salvation that you don't understand? Clearly, repentance comes first.


God approves the kind of sorrow expressed here. This is not saying you will be saved, but rather proving that you are saved because you are expressing Godly sorrow over sin.It says repentance leads to salvation. How could it lead to salvation if you're already saved? You're not accepting the scripture for how it is written.


In other words since you are saved, you show godly sorrow which leads to salvation in the fullness of time. That's why Paul states that "the sorrow of the world produces death." Godly sorrow is repentance to life, worldly sorrow produces death, not repentance to salvation or eternal life.

Many Blessings,
RWThey had already repented and were saved. He wasn't speaking of "salvation in the fullness of time" but of the salvation they had already obtained after they repented. Notice what Paul says resulted from their repentance:

2 Cor 7
11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! indignation, In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Those are all things that happen after someone is saved and made a new creation in Christ.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 06:09 PM
The Publican's heart was pierced by God and this is what brought him to repentence. The Pharisees heart was not pierced by God, and he did not recognize himself as a sinner.Do you believe that God was not interested in trying to lead the Pharisee to repentance?


In 2 Cor 7 Verse 8 it even attributes the very sorrow that the Publican was feeling to God himself by calling it "godly sorrow" and then stating that "worldly sorrow" leads to death. Why would Paul make this distinction between the two types of sorrow, if what brought on the sorrow itself came by the will of man.The difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow is that godly sorrow means one is truly sorry for their sins and wishes to turn from them and it includes the hope that one can be forgiven by God. Worldly sorrow, on the other hand, is the kind of sorrow that is absent of any hope of forgiveness and for something more beyond this temporary life.

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.



Now let's get back to the whole grieving thing..which is what I think your whole direction is with quoting this passage(hopefully along with showing that humility is a Godly attribute as well) Did God know who he would and who he would not forgive of their sins based on this passage?God knows everything beforehand. God determined that He would forgive the sins of those who confessed and repented of them and would not forgive those who refused to repent.

Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 06:27 PM
Do you believe that God was not interested in trying to lead the Pharisee to repentance?

The difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow is that godly sorrow means one is truly sorry for their sins and wishes to turn from them and it includes the hope that one can be forgiven by God. Worldly sorrow, on the other hand, is the kind of sorrow that is absent of any hope of forgiveness and for something more beyond this temporary life.


1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

God knows everything beforehand. God determined that He would forgive the sins of those who confessed and repented of them and would not forgive those who refused to repent.


Well I think we're going to have to let this go at an I agree to disagree, as I don't think we will ever completely agree where godly sorrow comes from, why God grieves, as well as I don't think we will agree upon on who ultimately Wills and enables men to be saved. Just to clarify once again, I believe all of these attibutes to salvation ultimately come from God. Here is are some verses spoken by Isaiah the prophet, and referenced in Luke 6:4-6 which signify this:

As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
And all mankind will see God's salvation.

That being said this has been a great discussion with you all. I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now indefinitely, as it does seem as if we are getting more into a confusing loop of the same questions that have already been answered/clarified pages back. God bless all in Christian Love.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 07:42 PM
Exactly firstfruits! Now from where does faith come? By grace we are saved...how? Through faith that is not of ourselves, but the gift of God. In Eph 2:8 "it is" is in italics, and does not belong. When we leave it is out, we can better see the gift of God's grace unto salvation is faith. So that we will know the gift of faith is not our own, Paul says, "not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.The gift is salvation, not saving faith. We know from Romans 6:23 that the gift of God is eternal life, which is the same as salvation. It is salvation that is not of our own works, not faith.

Titus 3
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We can't form doctrines based on one passage without looking for added insight from other passages.

Is is salvation that is by grace. It is salvation that is through faith. It is salvation that is not of ourselves and our own works. It is salvation that is the gift of God.

Never in scripture is faith described as something that God infuses into a person's heart. Faith (or the lack thereof) is something that comes out of a person's heart. Faith is a response to what is heard (Rom 10:17) and not something just given or infused in us. Also, if faith is just given to us then why are we commanded to believe? Why didn't Jesus just say "Some of you will be given faith and once you are then you will repent and believe the gospel". Instead, He said "Repent ye, and believe the gospel".

Saving faith is something that is required of us, not given to us. The ability to choose to believe or not is given to all people. Otherwise, Jesus would not have told everyone who could hear to repent and believe the gospel. Paul and Silas wouldn't have answered "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" in response to the prison keeper's question of what he had to do to be saved if not everyone had the chance to be saved.

If faith was the gift of God, why doesn't it say so in any other verses in scripture? Why doesn't Ephesians 1:13 say "after that ye were given faith to believe, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise". Why doesn't John 3:16 say "...whosoever is given the faith to believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"?

Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. You are trying to say that faith comes by way of a gift that God only gives to some. No.

John 20
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It is expected that by reading and/or hearing the words of scripture it is enough to convince ANYONE to believe. But some choose to stubbornly refuse to believe because they don't want to have to answer to anyone or change their ways. If saving faith was a gift that God decided to give only to a chosen few while withholding it from everyone else then why would an impartial God do such a thing? It would contradict His character.


Peter preaches the gospel to the Gentiles, that they too might believe, (trust in, have faith). After hearing, God knowing the hearts, gives them the Holy Spirit, Who purifies their hearts by faith, or moral conviction, persuasion, assurance, reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words believing (faith) must go beyond a mental assent of Who Christ is, to a firm conviction (saving faith) of reliance upon Christ for salvation. One kind of faith is from observable evidence, and comes from within, but the other kind of faith is supernatural, the gift of God's grace. Without saving faith that comes by grace, no man can be saved.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Ac 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Ac 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Many Blessings,
RWEveryone here, I hope, knows that saving faith is more than just believing in your head but involves believing with all your heart and putting your full trust in Christ for salvation. You are trying to say that the Acts 15:7-9 passages is saying that saving faith is a gift? Who does that passage say should hear the gospel and believe? The Gentiles. Where does it say that faith was given to them? God gave them the Holy Spirit because He knew that in their hearts they believed in Christ. One is born of the Spirit, baptized, circumcised and sealed by the Spirit only after they have repented and put their faith in Christ.

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 08:08 PM
Repentance is not a requirement for salvation, it is evidence that we have been saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

If our sins are not blotted out/forgiven/repented, can salvation still be valid with regards to the following?

Acts 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

2 Cor 7:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Can we enter Heaven if our sins are unforgiven/unrepented?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 08:32 PM
If our sins are not blotted out/forgiven/repented, can salvation still be valid with regards to the following?

Acts 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

2 Cor 7:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Can we enter Heaven if our sins are unforgiven/unrepented?

Firstfruits


Exactly firstfruits! Now from where does faith come? By grace we are saved...how? Through faith that is not of ourselves, but the gift of God. In Eph 2:8 "it is" is in italics, and does not belong. When we leave it is out, we can better see the gift of God's grace unto salvation is faith. So that we will know the gift of faith is not our own, Paul says, "not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Peter preaches the gospel to the Gentiles, that they too might believe, (trust in, have faith). After hearing, God knowing the hearts, gives them the Holy Spirit, Who purifies their hearts by faith, or moral conviction, persuasion, assurance, reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words believing (faith) must go beyond a mental assent of Who Christ is, to a firm conviction (saving faith) of reliance upon Christ for salvation. One kind of faith is from observable evidence, and comes from within, but the other kind of faith is supernatural, the gift of God's grace. Without saving faith that comes by grace, no man can be saved.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Ac 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Ac 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Many Blessings,
RW

Grace is God goodness towards the undeserving. Grace is not faith, it is our response to Gods mercy to us.

Phil 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Can you strive for that which has been given freely?

Eph 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We are saved by grace, but we must have faith to believe.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 08:51 PM
If our sins are not blotted out/forgiven/repented, can salvation still be valid with regards to the following?

Acts 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

2 Cor 7:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Can we enter Heaven if our sins are unforgiven/unrepented?

FirstfruitsThe order couldn't be any more clear. Once must repent in order to be converted and saved. Godly sorrow produces repentance that leads to conversion/salvation. The publican in Luke 18:9-14 was justified after he repented.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 09:10 PM
Grace is God goodness towards the undeserving. Grace is not faith, it is our response to Gods mercy to us.

Phil 1:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=50&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Can you strive for that which has been given freely?

Eph 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We are saved by grace, but we must have faith to believe.

God bless you!!

FirstfruitsI agree. Also, why would Paul need to reason with and persuade people to believe the gospel if saving faith was a gift?

Acts 18
4And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. 5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

If faith is given what need is there to reason with people and try to persuade them to believe? Paul clearly didn't think that saving faith was a gift. Instead, he clearly believed that people needed to be reasoned with and persuaded to believe. Notice in the above passage that their opposition to his teaching was not due to not being given the ability to believe it. If that was the case then it would be God who was responsible for them not being able to believe. But Paul said their blood was on their own heads. They were solely responsible for not believing. That would make no sense if there wasn't any free will choice in the matter.

Another thing is that in Genesis 6:3 we learn that God's Spirit strives with man.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The Hebrew word for strive is "diyn" (Strong's H1777) and in that verse means to contend or to plead. The Holy Spirit speaks to people's hearts and consciences in an effort to convict them of their sins, but people are required to respond with repentance. This isn't automatic. It's a choice. If saving faith was a gift then why would God's Spirit strive with man? If saving faith was a gift and man has no choice in the matter then He would just give faith to the chosen and withhold it from the rest and that would be it. There would be no convincing, convicting, persuasion or striving required.

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 09:14 PM
According to the following what are meet for repentance?

Mt 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Acts 26:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 09:18 PM
According to the following what are meet for repentance?

Mt 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Acts 26:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=26&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

FirstfruitsBased on the example of the publican in Luke 18:9-14 that would include humbling yourself, acknowledging that you're a sinner and asking God for mercy.

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 5th 2008, 09:22 PM
The order couldn't be any more clear. Once must repent in order to be converted and saved. Godly sorrow produces repentance that leads to conversion/salvation. The publican in Luke 18:9-14 was justified after he repented.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,

a) Their hearts were pierced. (they now believed)
b) What shall we do to be saved.
c) Repent [think differently, change your mind, reconsider] that this man whom you crucified, was indeed the Christ. The One promised, sent of the Father.
* They were on the path, but Jesus Christ became a stumbling block along that path.
d) So, turn again (return) that your sins (which were once merely covered) may now be 'blotted' out (washed away, never to be uncovered again)

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 09:28 PM
Is is salvation that is by grace. It is salvation that is through faith. It is salvation that is not of ourselves and our own works. It is salvation that is the gift of God.

Never in scripture is faith described as something that God infuses into a person's heart. Faith (or the lack thereof) is something that comes out of a person's heart. Faith is a response to what is heard (Rom 10:17) and not something just given or infused in us. Also, if faith is just given to us then why are we commanded to believe? Why didn't Jesus just say "Some of you will be given faith and once you are then you will repent and believe the gospel". Instead, He said "Repent ye, and believe the gospel".

Saving faith is something that is required of us, not given to us. The ability to choose to believe or not is given to all people. Otherwise, Jesus would not have told everyone who could hear to repent and believe the gospel. Paul and Silas wouldn't have answered "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" in response to the prison keeper's question of what he had to do to be saved if not everyone had the chance to be saved.

If faith was the gift of God, why doesn't it say so in any other verses in scripture? Why doesn't Ephesians 1:13 say "after that ye were given faith to believe, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise". Why doesn't John 3:16 say "...whosoever is given the faith to believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"?

Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. You are trying to say that faith comes by way of a gift that God only gives to some. No.

The free gift is grace.

Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The free gift of grace and righteousness.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

The gift of God is eternal life.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This verse in Ephesians can be interpreted as such:

For by the divine influence upon the heart, you are preserved or made whole, through persuasion or moral conviction of the offering or sacrifice of God.

Saving faith comes by the power of God, not the wisdom of men.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

We have confidence by faith of Christ, not our own faith.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

How can saving faith come from men and be one faith?

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Saving faith comes with love from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is not our own, but through the faith of Christ, a righteousness which is of God by faith.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

We are risen with Christ through the faith of the operation of God, not the operation of man.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

God fulfills the work of faith in us with power (Holy Spirit).

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Not all men have this saving faith, only God's elect.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Unbelief cannot hinder the faith of God to those who believe.

Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

We receive righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ when we believe. Not our own righteousness, not our own faith, both gifts of God's grace.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

This says the exact same thing that Eph 2:8 says. Faith is by grace; i.e. the gift of God's grace.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Saving faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Not all men are given saving faith.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If one has faith it is because God has allowed it.

Ro 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not faith from within, when they believe.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There are so many passages of Scripture telling us that saving faith is not something we can accomplish ourselves, but must be given supernaturally through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Only the one who refuses to receive the overwhelming biblical evidence or tries to wrest the Scripture continues to argue that salvation comes through man's free will.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 09:29 PM
Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,

a) Their hearts were pierced. (they now believed)
b) What shall we do to be saved.
c) Repent [think differently, change your mind, reconsider] that this man whom you crucified, was indeed the Christ. The One promised, sent of the Father.
* They were on the path, but Jesus Christ became a stumbling block along that path.
d) So, turn again (return) that your sins (which were once merely covered) may now be 'blotted' out (washed away, never to be uncovered again)Not sure what your point is. Repentance comes first and then forgiveness of sins and salvation takes place.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 11:05 PM
The free gift is grace.The free gift of God is eternal life and salvation by grace through faith in Christ.


Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The free gift of grace and righteousness.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

The gift of God is eternal life.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This verse in Ephesians can be interpreted as such:

For by the divine influence upon the heart, you are preserved or made whole, through persuasion or moral conviction of the offering or sacrifice of God.

Saving faith comes by the power of God, not the wisdom of men.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.You're misinterpreting this verse. Notice that it's our faith. Our faith isn't in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Cor 2:5 (YLT)

that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What is the power of God?

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


We have confidence by faith of Christ, not our own faith.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.Christ doesn't have faith. Does He believe in Himself? He doesn't need faith. Once again, you are misinterpreting scripture.

Eph 3:12 (NASB) in whom we have boldness and (AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29264AH))confident (AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29264AI))access through faith in Him.


How can saving faith come from men and be one faith?

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,That verse is speaking of THE faith in general. There is one body with many members. There is only one faith that saves us: faith in Christ (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).



Saving faith comes with love from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.Where does this verse say that God gives us saving faith for salvation? I believe this verse has to do with the fact that after we are born of the Spirit and saved we are given the peace that passes all understanding and we experience God's love and an extra measure of faith that assures us that we indeed have been saved. I don't see that this verse is speaking of that initial saving faith and trust that one must put in Christ in order to be saved.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Notice in this verse that Paul is saying that being circumcised doesn't mean anything, but having a loving faith is what matters to God. You can't get around it. We are required to have faith and it's not just given to us.


Righteousness is not our own, but through the faith of Christ, a righteousness which is of God by faith.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:You are misinterpreting this verse. It is unfortunately mistranslated in the KJV. Like I said earlier, Christ doesn't have faith. Does He need to believe in Himself? Of course not. So, there is no such thing as the faith of Christ. Scripture repeatedly speaks of our responsibility to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. It never says that we are first given saving faith and then we believe. Here is a better translation of that verse:

9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

This translation is in line with the abundance of other scripture that says that we must put our faith and trust in Christ in order to be saved. It says in John 3:18 that whoever believes in Him is not condemned but whoever does not believe in Him is condemned already. This means that if saving faith is a gift from God then you are saying He withholds this gift from most people (few are saved - Matt 7:13-14) so that they will be condemned and will never have the chance or ability to believe in Him. That just does not describe the character of God as taught in scripture. He is impartial.


We are risen with Christ through the faith of the operation of God, not the operation of man.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.It's a two-way street, Roger. We see this repeatedly. God calls. He expects man to respond. Many are called, but few are chosen? Why? Does God call many who are not able to respond? No! Why would He do that? It would be an utter waste of time. It is their choice to reject the call.

Isaiah 66
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


God fulfills the work of faith in us with power (Holy Spirit).

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:Let's see, whose work of faith is it?

1 Thess 1
2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;



Not all men have this saving faith, only God's elect.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;Obviously. We all agree on that.


Unbelief cannot hinder the faith of God to those who believe.

Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?Hold on now, Roger. This verse is not saying that God will give faith to those who don't believe. Is that what you think? This has to do with what Paul talks about later in that book.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The unbelief of some in Israel did not mean that the word of God had no effect. There was a remnant of believers, as we know from Romans 11:5. The unbelief of many did not make God cast Israel away (Rom 11:1). We know that God doesn't give faith to those who don't believe. Instead, we know that Paul taught that the one who did not believe were broken off of the good olive tree (Rom 11:20).


We receive righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ when we believe. Not our own righteousness, not our own faith, both gifts of God's grace.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:See what I said earlier about the faith of Christ. There is no such thing. The correct translation is "faith in Jesus Christ". Whosoever believes IN Him should not perish but have everlasting life.".


This says the exact same thing that Eph 2:8 says. Faith is by grace; i.e. the gift of God's grace.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,Of whose faith? In this case, Abraham's. You have to read the verses that follow for the context.

Rom 4
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

If we have faith like Abraham then we are children of Abraham (Gal 3:7). If we have faith in Christ then we are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:26-29).


Saving faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Yes, by hearing the Word of God and responding to it with faith, and not by faith being given to us.


Not all men are given saving faith.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.That isn't speaking of saving faith because you might notice that it says "every man". Read Romans 1:18-32. Indeed, all men have a measure of faith and a knowledge of God. But many become vain in their imaginations, choose to worship and serve the creature more than the Creator and decide it is not worth their while to thank Him, glorify Him as God or retain Him in their knowledge.


If one has faith it is because God has allowed it.

Ro 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.The number of verses that you misinterpret is staggering. Where is your discernment, Roger? Once again you have missed the context.

Romans 14
21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

That verse is not speaking about what God allows. It is speaking about what individuals allow themselves to do, which has to do with whether oer not they allow themselves to eat flesh, drink wine or "any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth". If someone decides that drinking wine is okay then he better do it out of faith or else he is damned for doing it because if he isn't doing because he truly believes it's okay with God and is instead doing it because it's what he wants to do then he is sinning.


Man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not faith from within, when they believe.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.No, man is justified by having faith in Christ. Again, there is no such thing as the faith of Christ.

Romans 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


There are so many passages of Scripture telling us that saving faith is not something we can accomplish ourselves, but must be given supernaturally through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.Only passages that you have misinterpreted. There are many passages that tell us we are responsible to respond to the gospel by placing our faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.


Only the one who refuses to receive the overwhelming biblical evidence or tries to wrest the Scripture continues to argue that salvation comes through man's free will. You twisted and misinterpreted so much scripture in one post that I could barely keep up.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 5th 2008, 11:32 PM
Not sure what your point is. Repentance comes first and then forgiveness of sins and salvation takes place.

Repentance {change of mind} came about through first belief in the pierced heart.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Because first the heart believes, the mind is then changed [turned, repented] unto a confession with the mouth unto salvation.

If the mind is changed first, then it is nothing more then a man made intellectual salvation. They worship me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 5th 2008, 11:41 PM
The free gift of God is eternal life and salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

The gift we recieve is someone, not something.

Jesus said "I am the Life"

He who has the Son, has life.
He who does not have the Son, does not have life.

We cannot have the Son, and not have life/salvation.
We cannot have the things of Christ, and not have Christ.

RogerW
Nov 6th 2008, 02:19 AM
The free gift of God is eternal life and salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

You're misinterpreting this verse. Notice that it's our faith. Our faith isn't in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Cor 2:5 (YLT)

that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What is the power of God?

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Christ doesn't have faith. Does He believe in Himself? He doesn't need faith. Once again, you are misinterpreting scripture.

Eph 3:12 (NASB) in whom we have boldness and (AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29264AH))confident (AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-29264AI))access through faith in Him.

That verse is speaking of THE faith in general. There is one body with many members. There is only one faith that saves us: faith in Christ (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).

Where does this verse say that God gives us saving faith for salvation? I believe this verse has to do with the fact that after we are born of the Spirit and saved we are given the peace that passes all understanding and we experience God's love and an extra measure of faith that assures us that we indeed have been saved. I don't see that this verse is speaking of that initial saving faith and trust that one must put in Christ in order to be saved.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Notice in this verse that Paul is saying that being circumcised doesn't mean anything, but having a loving faith is what matters to God. You can't get around it. We are required to have faith and it's not just given to us.

You are misinterpreting this verse. It is unfortunately mistranslated in the KJV. Like I said earlier, Christ doesn't have faith. Does He need to believe in Himself? Of course not. So, there is no such thing as the faith of Christ. Scripture repeatedly speaks of our responsibility to put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. It never says that we are first given saving faith and then we believe. Here is a better translation of that verse:

9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

This translation is in line with the abundance of other scripture that says that we must put our faith and trust in Christ in order to be saved. It says in John 3:18 that whoever believes in Him is not condemned but whoever does not believe in Him is condemned already. This means that if saving faith is a gift from God then you are saying He withholds this gift from most people (few are saved - Matt 7:13-14) so that they will be condemned and will never have the chance or ability to believe in Him. That just does not describe the character of God as taught in scripture. He is impartial.

It's a two-way street, Roger. We see this repeatedly. God calls. He expects man to respond. Many are called, but few are chosen? Why? Does God call many who are not able to respond? No! Why would He do that? It would be an utter waste of time. It is their choice to reject the call.

Isaiah 66
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Let's see, whose work of faith is it?

1 Thess 1
2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Obviously. We all agree on that.

Hold on now, Roger. This verse is not saying that God will give faith to those who don't believe. Is that what you think? This has to do with what Paul talks about later in that book.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The unbelief of some in Israel did not mean that the word of God had no effect. There was a remnant of believers, as we know from Romans 11:5. The unbelief of many did not make God cast Israel away (Rom 11:1). We know that God doesn't give faith to those who don't believe. Instead, we know that Paul taught that the one who did not believe were broken off of the good olive tree (Rom 11:20).

See what I said earlier about the faith of Christ. There is no such thing. The correct translation is "faith in Jesus Christ". Whosoever believes IN Him should not perish but have everlasting life.".

Of whose faith? In this case, Abraham's. You have to read the verses that follow for the context.

Rom 4
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

If we have faith like Abraham then we are children of Abraham (Gal 3:7). If we have faith in Christ then we are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Gal 3:26-29).

I’m always curious when one feels the need to jump from one translation to another to prove their doctrine. If one translation shows you are wrong…well what the heck, just keep looking, cause you’re sure to find a translation that agrees with your doctrine sooner or later. I’ll stick with the one KJV that I’ve found time and again to be the most faithful translation. Now I will admit that sometime even the KJV does not use the best word to translate the Greek, but when it comes to translating prepositions the KJV is always consistent and doesn’t bounce from “of” to “in” to suit a certain bias. Just as it is the gospel OF Christ, and power OF God, it is also faith OF Christ.

You are correct our faith does not come by the wisdom of man, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. How is the gospel of Christ the power of God unto salvation? Answer: to every one that believes…in other words the gospel of Christ, through the power of God, brings salvation to those who believe. Who believes? Only those who receive faith when hearing!

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Like I said if you aren’t satisfied with one translation keep searching. Let me throw another translation out there for you. Concordant Version, instead of translating using a concordance is already concordant. How the Concordant Version works: It would be easy to explain what the soul is if the translators had never translated it life. Therefore the Concordant Version always renders word for word. The word psuche is always soul, and zoe life. According to the CV lets see if the KJV translators have more accurately translated Eph 3:12 than your modern NASB.

CV Eph 3:12 - Christ Jesus, our Lord; in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith.

It sounds like the translators of the CV certainly understood that Christ has faith. Perhaps it is only the modern translations, favored by many today that have a problem understanding the Lord has faith. It just might have something to do with the need to translate according to a certain bias…like free will perhaps?

That’s the whole point Eric. It is “The Faith”. If salvation comes by our own faith, then it could not be “one faith.” Would you also argue in the same verse for “THE” Lord in general, or “THE” baptism in general. Of course you wouldn’t because that would be ridiculous. So too would be our faith. It is “one faith”, and that the gift of God’s grace unto salvation.
Eric we are not born with saving faith! So, from where does this saving faith come?

Eric there is nothing wrong with the KJ translation. The problem is that you refuse to receive the clear Scripture, so you try to justify your refusal by finding a modern translation that, like you brings a free will bias into the Word of God.

CV Ph 3:9 - Christ, and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith.

Eric, who will answer? NONE! Unless we first receive faith through the operation of God. Just as God has roused Christ from death, so too He raises us from the dead through faith of the operation of God. Did Christ raise Himself? No! Do we raise ourselves? No!

But you’ve left out those verses that tell us how they are able to have a “work of faith.” First they are the elect of God. Second they hear the gospel that came to them in power and in the Holy Spirit, and assurance…And then they became followers with Paul of the Lord. Sounds like they “hear” the gospel, and through “hearing” they receive faith by the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. Now we understand how they have a work of faith and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord, in the sight of our God and Father.

1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

No Eric, I don’t believe your modern version is the correct translation. I am convinced that the prepositions “of” have routinely been changed to “in” to fit a free will bias. I don’t accept the modern translators, and neither does the Concordant Version of Sacred Scripture. But you won’t be convinced, and you will continue to argue the fact because you also bring your free will bias to the Word of God.

CV Ro 3:22 - yet a righteousness of God, through Jesus Christ’s faith, for all and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Eric, you are totally ignoring what the verse is saying. “Therefore of faith, that by grace”. How can the faith by grace be our faith or even faith like Abraham’s? This verse like Eph 2:8 tell us that faith is by grace because faith is a gift of God’s grace, in the same manner as Abraham.

Yes, by hearing the Word of God and responding to it with faith, and not by faith being given to us.

Who hears the Word of God and respond in faith Eric?

The point Eric, is that faith comes from God. Very clearly, not every man is given saving faith, but every man is given a measure of faith FROM GOD. In other words “faith” comes from God, whether only a measure or saving faith…

No Eric, it is a warning not to think to highly of the fact that you have received faith from God. So don’t condemn yourself in thinking you have somewhat to boast of, because you only have faith by the will of God. The faith you have, have to yourself between you and God. He who doubts if he should be eating has been condemned, seeing that it is not out of faith, because everything that is not of faith is sin.

Eric, once again your modern translation has deceived you.

CV Ro 3:26-28 - toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? No! but through faith’s law. For we are reckoning mankind to be justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Gal 2:16 - having perceived that a man is not justified by works of law, except it be through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe into Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh be justified.


You say I misinterpret Scripture, but you are the one who plays which translation best fits my free will bias. I agree we will respond to the gospel, AFTER Christ, through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit gives us ears to hear and saving faith.

Again Eric, rather than admit that you could be wrong because you are seeing through the eyes of free will, you will jump from one translation to another to deny that the Bible tells us that saving faith is not of ourselves but a gift of God’s grace. I’m afraid that you will never be able to understand the Sovereign grace of God in salvation until you can search the Scriptures without bias, and allow the Bible to be its own interpreter.

Many blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 12:10 PM
Based on the example of the publican in Luke 18:9-14 that would include humbling yourself, acknowledging that you're a sinner and asking God for mercy.

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Therefore we can choose to either exalt or humble ourselves before God;

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

What therefore does it mean to exalt oneself?

What does it mean to humble oneself?

What does it mean to be abased?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 12:21 PM
The free gift is grace.

Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The free gift of grace and righteousness.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

The gift of God is eternal life.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This verse in Ephesians can be interpreted as such:

For by the divine influence upon the heart, you are preserved or made whole, through persuasion or moral conviction of the offering or sacrifice of God.

Saving faith comes by the power of God, not the wisdom of men.

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

We have confidence by faith of Christ, not our own faith.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

How can saving faith come from men and be one faith?

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Saving faith comes with love from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Righteousness is not our own, but through the faith of Christ, a righteousness which is of God by faith.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

We are risen with Christ through the faith of the operation of God, not the operation of man.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

God fulfills the work of faith in us with power (Holy Spirit).

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Not all men have this saving faith, only God's elect.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Unbelief cannot hinder the faith of God to those who believe.

Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

We receive righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ when we believe. Not our own righteousness, not our own faith, both gifts of God's grace.

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

This says the exact same thing that Eph 2:8 says. Faith is by grace; i.e. the gift of God's grace.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Saving faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Not all men are given saving faith.

Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If one has faith it is because God has allowed it.

Ro 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, not faith from within, when they believe.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There are so many passages of Scripture telling us that saving faith is not something we can accomplish ourselves, but must be given supernaturally through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Only the one who refuses to receive the overwhelming biblical evidence or tries to wrest the Scripture continues to argue that salvation comes through man's free will.

Many Blessings,
RW

What is the difference between Grace and Faith?

If God does not give us faith to believe, then how can we receive his grace?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 12:26 PM
Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,

a) Their hearts were pierced. (they now believed)
b) What shall we do to be saved.
c) Repent [think differently, change your mind, reconsider] that this man whom you crucified, was indeed the Christ. The One promised, sent of the Father.
* They were on the path, but Jesus Christ became a stumbling block along that path.
d) So, turn again (return) that your sins (which were once merely covered) may now be 'blotted' out (washed away, never to be uncovered again)

Unless sins are blotted out/forgiven by repentance, can we still obtain salvation?

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 6th 2008, 03:51 PM
Hello All,

New to the forum. I was browsing through some of the threads, and I happened upon this interesting one. I thought I might chime in a bit to see if I could add my two cents. From reading the opinions within this thread, it seems as though people are kind of on one side of the fence or the other regarding the whole "free will" debate. Some say salvation is entirely our choice, others say salvation is guided by God. I'm going to have to say that I tend to agree with the latter of the two positions, but from what I can tell this doesn't seem to negate human choice any. From what I can tell, scriptures reference God as being love. So my thought process would be, if God is love...wouldn't it make sense for us to be in submission to his will if he is loving?

I think of God as like an all encompassing rock, who we can depend and lean upon..particularly during those times in life when things are going wrong. I think if we took the rock out of the equation..we wouldn't really have much footing to hold us up. This doesn't mean that the rock is telling us what to do every minute of the day, it does mean to me that it is the all encompassing thing that brings us together.

So I guess to me, having God support me regarding my most important decisions in life has to do with having someone to depend upon. I think of how life would be if we didn't have any foundation at all supporting or guiding us, I think most people in this world would be kind of lost in regards to what they should do in life..and each person would kind of just do whatever they wanted to one another without conscience..or specifically without love guiding them. I think in the end, my testimony probably won't change much of the opinions in this thread. But just wanted to add a bit more insight to what already has been said.

Blessings to all,

Matthew

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 04:09 PM
Hello All,

New to the forum. I was browsing through some of the threads, and I happened upon this interesting one. I thought I might chime in a bit to see if I could add my two cents. From reading the opinions within this thread, it seems as though people are kind of on one side of the fence or the other regarding the whole "free will" debate. Some say salvation is entirely our choice, others say salvation is guided by God. I'm going to have to say that I tend to agree with the latter of the two positions, but from what I can tell this doesn't seem to negate human choice any. From what I can tell, scriptures reference God as being love. So my thought process would be, if God is love...wouldn't it make sense for us to be in submission to his will if he is loving?

I think of God as like an all encompassing rock, who we can depend and lean upon..particularly during those times in life when things are going wrong. I think if we took the rock out of the equation..we wouldn't really have much footing to hold us up. This doesn't mean that the rock is telling us what to do every minute of the day, it does mean to me that it is the all encompassing thing that brings us together.

So I guess to me, having God support me regarding my most important decisions in life has to do with having someone to depend upon. I think of how life would be if we didn't have any foundation at all supporting or guiding us, I think most people in this world would be kind of lost in regards to what they should do in life..and each person would kind of just do whatever they wanted to one another without conscience..or specifically without love guiding them. I think in the end, my testimony probably won't change much of the opinions in this thread. But just wanted to add a bit more insight to what already has been said.

Blessings to all,

Matthew

First let me welcome you to the Forum and this thread, your imput is welcome.

With all that you have said, you have not really said much about those that do not allow God to lead them, does God will for them not to accept Him?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 6th 2008, 04:18 PM
First let me welcome you to the Forum and this thread, your imput is welcome.

With all that you have said, you have not really said much about those that do not allow God to lead them, does God will for them not to accept Him?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

You know that is a tough question, and it really requires a lot more insight than probably what most of us have. There are scriptures that can be used to prove that God does will people to do things, and there are scriptures which can be used to prove that he does not. All in all, not even factoring human choice into the equation..I would say that God does work all things for the good of those who love him...Thus this I think means that his sovereign will is in effect at all times, despite what choices people make. This will or plan in itself is never effected by the choices that we make. The choices we make only really effect us in the end, not God. Does that make sense?

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 04:32 PM
You know that is a tough question, and it really requires a lot more insight than probably what most of us have. There are scriptures that can be used to prove that God does will people to do things, and there are scriptures which can be used to prove that he does not. All in all, not even factoring human choice into the equation..I would say that God does work all things for the good of those who love him...Thus this I think means that his sovereign will is in effect at all times, despite what choices people make. This will or plan in itself is never effected by the choices that we make. The choices we make only really effect us in the end, not God. Does that make sense?

Thank you Just Another Guy,

Knowing that Gods sovereign will is in effect at all times how are those that do not submit to Gods will do so?

Firstfruits

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 6th 2008, 04:43 PM
Thank you Just Another Guy,

Knowing that Gods sovereign will is in effect at all times how are those that do not submit to Gods will do so?

Firstfruits

This would be the same as I answered above. There are scriptures that prove God is willing them to make certain decisions, and there are scriptures that demonstrate these people are making poor choices on their own without any intervention from God. Don't really want to get into that tit for tat discussion...it doesn't really lead to any clarity or insight regarding the matter. I will say that my sincere hope would be that most in here will agree on the primary doctrines of "none can resist his will" and that "God is love" despite God giving human beings the ability to choose. If God is loving, and doing things for a loving purpose then who would really want to resist it anyway?

drew
Nov 6th 2008, 05:52 PM
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
This has nothing to do with us "getting" the righteousness of God when we believe.

Paul is here describing the covenant faithfulness of God - God's righteous behaviour in the sense of God's "covenant-keeping" behaviour.

This verse, by itself, might indeed be read as you think. And it also might be read as I have suggested.

However, the overall context shows that Paul is here referring to righteousness of God in the sense of God's covenant faithfulness. And this is not being imputed or ascribed to us. Paul is simply saying this: Jesus has fulfilled the covenant, thereby demonstrating God's righteousness, and we all benefit as result".

What is Paul talking about at the beginning of Romans 3? He is talking about the Jew's not being faithful to their covenantal obligation to be light to world:

What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness?

So Paul raises the very question that he will answer in the verse you seem to think is talking about a righteousness that we get - God will indeed remain faithful to the covenant. So in verses 21 and 22 we get the answer:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Now a comment about translation. The phrase "faith in Jesus Christ" could equally well have been translated "faith of Jesus Christ", just as your translation has done.

If that is done, verse 21 and 22 are the perfectly sensible answer to the covenantal questions raised earlier in the chapter - God, through Jesus, has been righteous. Paul's is talking about what God and Jesus have done, not a status we get.

If your take on what this verse means is correct, the reader is still waiting for the details of the answer to the question about whether God will be faithful to the covenant even though the Jews have dropped the ball.

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to do a holistic exegesis. It is precisely by considering the overall structure of Paul's argument - in this case, understanding that verses 21 and 22 are the perfect answer to the covenant faithfulness questions raised earlier in the chapter - that we resolves texts like Romans 3:22 which, by itself, is indeed ambiguous.

John146
Nov 6th 2008, 06:18 PM
The gift we recieve is someone, not something.

Jesus said "I am the Life"

He who has the Son, has life.
He who does not have the Son, does not have life.

We cannot have the Son, and not have life/salvation.
We cannot have the things of Christ, and not have Christ.It's both someone and something. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23). We receive eternal life through Christ and receive Christ in our heart when the Holy Spirit indwells us.

John146
Nov 6th 2008, 07:15 PM
I’m always curious when one feels the need to jump from one translation to another to prove their doctrine.Newsflash, Roger. The KJV is not a perfect translation. Does it not occur to you that when several verses say one thing (justification is through faith in Christ) and then you find a verse that says something else (justification is through the faith of Christ) that something is amiss? We know scripture doesn't contradict itself. Justification can't be both through our faith and the faith of Christ. The word for "of" in that verse can be translated "in" or "of". Translators of other versions realized that translating it as "in" would make it consistent with the rest of scripture.



If one translation shows you are wrong…well what the heck, just keep looking, cause you’re sure to find a translation that agrees with your doctrine sooner or later. No, that is not it at all.


I’ll stick with the one KJV that I’ve found time and again to be the most faithful translation.It's a very good translation, but it is not perfect. You don't need to be offended by my saying that. In the few cases where it was not translated the best we can look at the Greek, look at other related scripture and even other translations to help us discern the meaning.


Now I will admit that sometime even the KJV does not use the best word to translate the Greek, but when it comes to translating prepositions the KJV is always consistent and doesn’t bounce from “of” to “in” to suit a certain bias. Just as it is the gospel OF Christ, and power OF God, it is also faith OF Christ.Why would it say we are justified by faith in Christ in several places and then say we are justified by the faith of Christ? Where is the consistency? At the very least, we are justified by our faith in Christ and the faith of Christ but you seem to be denying that we are justified at all by our own faith. You let one verse trump several others that say otherwise.


You are correct our faith does not come by the wisdom of man, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. How is the gospel of Christ the power of God unto salvation? Answer: to every one that believes…in other words the gospel of Christ, through the power of God, brings salvation to those who believe. Who believes? Only those who receive faith when hearing!

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Like I said if you aren’t satisfied with one translation keep searching.Our faith is in the gospel of Christ rather than in the wisdom of men. I stand by what I said and it has nothing to do with searching for a translation that agrees with me.


Let me throw another translation out there for you. Concordant Version, instead of translating using a concordance is already concordant. How the Concordant Version works: It would be easy to explain what the soul is if the translators had never translated it life. Therefore the Concordant Version always renders word for word. The word psuche is always soul, and zoe life. According to the CV lets see if the KJV translators have more accurately translated Eph 3:12 than your modern NASB.

CV Eph 3:12 - Christ Jesus, our Lord; in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith.

It sounds like the translators of the CV certainly understood that Christ has faith. Perhaps it is only the modern translations, favored by many today that have a problem understanding the Lord has faith. It just might have something to do with the need to translate according to a certain bias…like free will perhaps? What does Christ have saving faith in? Why would He even have saving faith in which to give? He doesn't need faith. He is faithful. That's the only sense in which He would have "faith". He has no need to have faith in Himself but we are required to put our faith in Him.


That’s the whole point Eric. It is “The Faith”. If salvation comes by our own faith, then it could not be “one faith.” Would you also argue in the same verse for “THE” Lord in general, or “THE” baptism in general. Of course you wouldn’t because that would be ridiculous. So too would be our faith. It is “one faith”, and that the gift of God’s grace unto salvation.
Eric we are not born with saving faith! So, from where does this saving faith come? Of course it comes from first hearing the word of God. The faith that we put in what we hear is from our own hearts. Whether you want to believe it or not every person has the capacity of believing because God gives it to them. He gives every person the ability to choose to believe or not.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Eric there is nothing wrong with the KJ translation.Like I said, it's a good translation. You already admitted that it does not always use the best word to translate the Greek. Did you not really mean that?


The problem is that you refuse to receive the clear Scripture, so you try to justify your refusal by finding a modern translation that, like you brings a free will bias into the Word of God. Wrong.


CV Ph 3:9 - Christ, and may be found in Him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God for faith.

Eric, who will answer? NONE! Unless we first receive faith through the operation of God. Just as God has roused Christ from death, so too He raises us from the dead through faith of the operation of God. Did Christ raise Himself? No! Do we raise ourselves? No! We don't raise ourselves but we are required to repent and believe before we can be raised.


But you’ve left out those verses that tell us how they are able to have a “work of faith.” First they are the elect of God. Second they hear the gospel that came to them in power and in the Holy Spirit, and assurance…And then they became followers with Paul of the Lord. Sounds like they “hear” the gospel, and through “hearing” they receive faith by the power of the Word and Holy Spirit.Sounds like? Where does it say that faith is infused into someone so that they will believe? That's the concept you keep trying to promote, but you don't have any scripture that speaks of such a thing.


Now we understand how they have a work of faith and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord, in the sight of our God and Father.

1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

No Eric, I don’t believe your modern version is the correct translation. I am convinced that the prepositions “of” have routinely been changed to “in” to fit a free will bias. I don’t accept the modern translators, and neither does the Concordant Version of Sacred Scripture. But you won’t be convinced, and you will continue to argue the fact because you also bring your free will bias to the Word of God. No, I look at scripture as a whole and I don't allow one verse to trump several other verses that say something different than that one particular verse, as you do.


CV Ro 3:22 - yet a righteousness of God, through Jesus Christ’s faith, for all and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction,

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Eric, you are totally ignoring what the verse is saying.No, I'm really not. You're ignoring the verses that say that Abraham believed God and that he had a strong faith of his own. It says nothing about faith being given to him.


“Therefore of faith, that by grace”. How can the faith by grace be our faith or even faith like Abraham’s? This verse like Eph 2:8 tell us that faith is by grace because faith is a gift of God’s grace, in the same manner as Abraham. Oh, now you're saying faith is the gift. Earlier you were saying grace was the gift. You should make up your mind. Salvation is the gift. Salvation is by grace. Salvation is through our faith in Christ. Salvation is not of our own works.


Yes, by hearing the Word of God and responding to it with faith, and not by faith being given to us.

Who hears the Word of God and respond in faith Eric?

The point Eric, is that faith comes from God. Very clearly, not every man is given saving faith, but every man is given a measure of faith FROM GOD. In other words “faith” comes from God, whether only a measure or saving faith…Show me the scripture that says that.


No Eric, it is a warning not to think to highly of the fact that you have received faith from God. So don’t condemn yourself in thinking you have somewhat to boast of, because you only have faith by the will of God. The faith you have, have to yourself between you and God. He who doubts if he should be eating has been condemned, seeing that it is not out of faith, because everything that is not of faith is sin. Even the KJV doesn't support you on this one. The context says absolutely nothing about receiving faith from God. It also shows that it isn't speaking about God allowing someone to have faith, as you think it says. It has to do with individuals determining what they are allowed to do or not to do based on whether or not it would cause someone else to stumble in their faith. Why don't you look up some commentaries on Romans 14:22 and see if you find anyone who agrees with you. You might be searching for a long time.


Eric, once again your modern translation has deceived you.

CV Ro 3:26-28 - toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, for Him to be just and a Justifier of the one who is of the faith of Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? No! but through faith’s law. For we are reckoning mankind to be justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Gal 2:16 - having perceived that a man is not justified by works of law, except it be through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe into Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh be justified. Are you denying that we are justified at all by our own faith?

Here are passages from the KJV:

Matthew 12
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Now, this passage doesn't actually mention faith specifically, but it does support my point. How can we be justified by our words? What does that mean? We know that out of the heart the mouth speaks. That is what it means. Our words reflect what is in our hearts. That's why Jesus could say we can be justified by our words. He's really saying that we are justified by what is in our hearts. If we have true faith in our hearts, then that will justify us before Christ.

Luke 18
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The publican humbled himself. He was justified for his own act of repentance and faith.

Acts 13
38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Again, we are required to believe in order to be justified.

It's interesting that you chose not to quote the KJV in the case of Romans 3:26-28. Why is that? Should I accuse you of using a different translation just to support your doctrine?

Romans 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

This translation of the passage, from the KJV, agrees with the other passages I quoted from the KJV.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Once again this is from the KJV and it shows that Abraham was justified by his own faith. We can't let one or two passages trump all these other passages. Scripture consistently teaches that we are justified by our faith, so we have to take that into account when interpreting verses like Galatians 2:16.


You say I misinterpret Scripture, but you are the one who plays which translation best fits my free will bias.Was I just imagining that you decided that the KJV was not the best translation when you quoted Romans 3:26-28 from a different translation?


I agree we will respond to the gospel, AFTER Christ, through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit gives us ears to hear and saving faith.Can you show me the scripture that specifically teaches that one cannot believe and respond to the gospel until after they are given saving faith?


Again Eric, rather than admit that you could be wrong because you are seeing through the eyes of free will, you will jump from one translation to another to deny that the Bible tells us that saving faith is not of ourselves but a gift of God’s grace. I’m afraid that you will never be able to understand the Sovereign grace of God in salvation until you can search the Scriptures without bias, and allow the Bible to be its own interpreter. Your bias is evident in every post you make. It's not going to get us anywhere to accuse each other of being biased. When I first studied this issue in depth I didn't have any bias because I wasn't sure what the truth was. I came to believe what I do after objectively studying the scriptures. You, on the other hand, seem to be heavily influenced by Reformed teachings, including the nonsensical doctrine of infant baptism.

Did you ever study scripture in depth before being inundated with Reformed teaching?

Zack702
Nov 6th 2008, 07:17 PM
4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 6th 2008, 08:42 PM
It's both someone and something. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23). We receive eternal life through Christ and receive Christ in our heart when the Holy Spirit indwells us.

Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, is the Life we receive.

1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
1Jn 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

John146
Nov 6th 2008, 08:57 PM
Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God, is the Life we receive.

1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
1Jn 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--You're getting off topic here, friend. I never said that we don't receive Christ and neither has anyone else. We also receive eternal life, which means we are given the gift of being able to live forever in the kingdom of God rather than in the lake of fire.

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 09:36 PM
This would be the same as I answered above. There are scriptures that prove God is willing them to make certain decisions, and there are scriptures that demonstrate these people are making poor choices on their own without any intervention from God. Don't really want to get into that tit for tat discussion...it doesn't really lead to any clarity or insight regarding the matter. I will say that my sincere hope would be that most in here will agree on the primary doctrines of "none can resist his will" and that "God is love" despite God giving human beings the ability to choose. If God is loving, and doing things for a loving purpose then who would really want to resist it anyway?

Do the following scriptures imply mans ability of self control when it comes to deciding wether to follow Christ?

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

Those that are contrary to the will of God are self willed;

2 Pet 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 6th 2008, 09:41 PM
Newsflash, Roger. The KJV is not a perfect translation. Does it not occur to you that when several verses say one thing (justification is through faith in Christ) and then you find a verse that says something else (justification is through the faith of Christ) that something is amiss? We know scripture doesn't contradict itself. Justification can't be both through our faith and the faith of Christ. The word for "of" in that verse can be translated "in" or "of". Translators of other versions realized that translating it as "in" would make it consistent with the rest of scripture.

No, that is not it at all.

It's a very good translation, but it is not perfect. You don't need to be offended by my saying that. In the few cases where it was not translated the best we can look at the Greek, look at other related scripture and even other translations to help us discern the meaning.

Why would it say we are justified by faith in Christ in several places and then say we are justified by the faith of Christ? Where is the consistency? At the very least, we are justified by our faith in Christ and the faith of Christ but you seem to be denying that we are justified at all by our own faith. You let one verse trump several others that say otherwise.

Our faith is in the gospel of Christ rather than in the wisdom of men. I stand by what I said and it has nothing to do with searching for a translation that agrees with me.

What does Christ have saving faith in? Why would He even have saving faith in which to give? He doesn't need faith. He is faithful. That's the only sense in which He would have "faith". He has no need to have faith in Himself but we are required to put our faith in Him.

Of course it comes from first hearing the word of God. The faith that we put in what we hear is from our own hearts. Whether you want to believe it or not every person has the capacity of believing because God gives it to them. He gives every person the ability to choose to believe or not.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Like I said, it's a good translation. You already admitted that it does not always use the best word to translate the Greek. Did you not really mean that?

Wrong.

We don't raise ourselves but we are required to repent and believe before we can be raised.

Sounds like? Where does it say that faith is infused into someone so that they will believe? That's the concept you keep trying to promote, but you don't have any scripture that speaks of such a thing.

No, I look at scripture as a whole and I don't allow one verse to trump several other verses that say something different than that one particular verse, as you do.

No, I'm really not. You're ignoring the verses that say that Abraham believed God and that he had a strong faith of his own. It says nothing about faith being given to him.

Oh, now you're saying faith is the gift. Earlier you were saying grace was the gift. You should make up your mind. Salvation is the gift. Salvation is by grace. Salvation is through our faith in Christ. Salvation is not of our own works.

Show me the scripture that says that.

Even the KJV doesn't support you on this one. The context says absolutely nothing about receiving faith from God. It also shows that it isn't speaking about God allowing someone to have faith, as you think it says. It has to do with individuals determining what they are allowed to do or not to do based on whether or not it would cause someone else to stumble in their faith. Why don't you look up some commentaries on Romans 14:22 and see if you find anyone who agrees with you. You might be searching for a long time.

Are you denying that we are justified at all by our own faith?

Here are passages from the KJV:

Matthew 12
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Now, this passage doesn't actually mention faith specifically, but it does support my point. How can we be justified by our words? What does that mean? We know that out of the heart the mouth speaks. That is what it means. Our words reflect what is in our hearts. That's why Jesus could say we can be justified by our words. He's really saying that we are justified by what is in our hearts. If we have true faith in our hearts, then that will justify us before Christ.

Luke 18
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The publican humbled himself. He was justified for his own act of repentance and faith.

Acts 13
38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Again, we are required to believe in order to be justified.

It's interesting that you chose not to quote the KJV in the case of Romans 3:26-28. Why is that? Should I accuse you of using a different translation just to support your doctrine?

Romans 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

This translation of the passage, from the KJV, agrees with the other passages I quoted from the KJV.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Once again this is from the KJV and it shows that Abraham was justified by his own faith. We can't let one or two passages trump all these other passages. Scripture consistently teaches that we are justified by our faith, so we have to take that into account when interpreting verses like Galatians 2:16.

Was I just imagining that you decided that the KJV was not the best translation when you quoted Romans 3:26-28 from a different translation?

Can you show me the scripture that specifically teaches that one cannot believe and respond to the gospel until after they are given saving faith?

Your bias is evident in every post you make. It's not going to get us anywhere to accuse each other of being biased. When I first studied this issue in depth I didn't have any bias because I wasn't sure what the truth was. I came to believe what I do after objectively studying the scriptures. You, on the other hand, seem to be heavily influenced by Reformed teachings, including the nonsensical doctrine of infant baptism.

Did you ever study scripture in depth before being inundated with Reformed teaching?

Eric,

It's obvious, and in fact has been for some time now, that we are not going come to unity of doctrine. You are going to remain free will and I am going to remain Reformed. So rather than continue to go round and round I'll simply show you why I believe that modern translations do err in their interpretation of "faith in" or "faith of", and then I will show you that Scripture clearly tells us that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, and that Christ is both the author and finisher of faith.

As Ro 4:1 tells us if Abraham's faith has saved him, then he has something from the flesh to boast in, but not before God. No man is justified before God through imperfect faith, and no man, not even Abraham, of themselves have perfect saving faith.

The fact is, 'faith of Christ' is the typical way to translate a genitive construction. Curiously (or not), 'faith in Christ' is the way that most modern translators choose to translate this today. Obviously it is more of a commentary, due to bias on their part, than a translation. Because there is similarly structured genitive construction in other passages, and these same 'translators' (again curiously) revert to the usual way of translating it using the word 'of.' For example:

Romans 4:16
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

This is the exact same construction as the passages translated 'faith of Christ [pistis christos], yet everyone without exception translates this faith of Abraham [pistis abraam], not faith in Abraham. Which is just another proof that it is only the word "Christ" which causes these translators difficulty. They all have no problem with the wording the faith 'of' Abraham. In fact, it would not Biblically make sense to say the 'faith in Abraham,' just as it doesn't Biblically make sense to say we are justified by our 'faith in Christ.' Justification cannot come by our faith.

Philippians 1:27
"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;"

Gospel of Christ [euaggelion Christos], and again it is the very same Greek construction. No one argues this should be translated the gospel in Christ, so you see the problem isn't in the text, context, or the nuances of the Greek. The problem is in the minds of modern translators who do not understand the faith of Christ, and allow their prejudices to seep into their work. It is obvious that if it wasn't Christ who was being spoken about, the modern translators just wouldn't cast any doubt on it. It would simply be rendered "of." Thus the deviation in the way the modern versions of scripture render this verse is motivated by theological viewpoint rather than an unbiased scholarship.

Many Theologians do not like this language because it robs them of every semblance that they had anything 'at all' to do with their persuasion or faith to believe in Christ. It gives all the energy to Christ. By rendering this, 'faith in Christ' the magnificent and glorious truth of the absolute predestination and sovereignty of God is all but obliterated.

Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 09:48 PM
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

According to what you have posted, Gods will is that he is going to send a sword and that before the sword comes there will be the sound of a trumpet as a warning.

What we also see is that whosoever will not take warning from the trumpet it will be their own fault.

That would therefore be the same for those that take heed of the trumpet, would it not? If they choose to hear and do what is needed they will be secure.

If this is not what it is saying let me know why?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

PS what is the scripture used?

John146
Nov 6th 2008, 10:38 PM
Eric,

It's obvious, and in fact has been for some time now, that we are not going come to unity of doctrine.Yes, I agree. But as long as you are going to try to spread your doctrine around here then I will continue to refute it.


You are going to remain free will and I am going to remain Reformed. So rather than continue to go round and round I'll simply show you why I believe that modern translations do err in their interpretation of "faith in" or "faith of", and then I will show you that Scripture clearly tells us that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, and that Christ is both the author and finisher of faith. That is not speaking of saving faith but rather an extra measure of faith that we are given upon being born of the Spirit so that we can be bold in sharing our faith with others. Nowhere does it say that people display the fruit of the Spirit in their lives even before they ever repent and believe. Think about it. If someone already has the Spirit in them why do they then need to turn from their sins? When we receive the Spirit we are immediately made new and given a new nature. We receive the Spirit after repenting and believing. Therefore, we don't yet have the fruit of the Spirit before putting our faith in Christ.


As Ro 4:1 tells us if Abraham's faith has saved him, then he has something from the flesh to boast in, but not before God. No man is justified before God through imperfect faith, and no man, not even Abraham, of themselves have perfect saving faith. No, it says if the works of the law justified Abraham then he'd have something to boast in. You have this bad habit of twisting scripture, Roger.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Clearly, works of the law could not justify anyone, but Abraham's faith, on the other hand, was counted unto him for righteousness. He was justified by his faith rather than by doing the works of the law.



The fact is, 'faith of Christ' is the typical way to translate a genitive construction. Curiously (or not), 'faith in Christ' is the way that most modern translators choose to translate this today. Obviously it is more of a commentary, due to bias on their part, than a translation. Because there is similarly structured genitive construction in other passages, and these same 'translators' (again curiously) revert to the usual way of translating it using the word 'of.' For example:

Romans 4:16
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

This is the exact same construction as the passages translated 'faith of Christ [pistis christos], yet everyone without exception translates this faith of Abraham [pistis abraam], not faith in Abraham. Which is just another proof that it is only the word "Christ" which causes these translators difficulty. They all have no problem with the wording the faith 'of' Abraham. In fact, it would not Biblically make sense to say the 'faith in Abraham,' just as it doesn't Biblically make sense to say we are justified by our 'faith in Christ.' Justification cannot come by our faith.I showed the verses that follow which clearly show that Abraham was justified by his own faith and you have chosen to ignore it. I also showed other passages that teach we are justified by our faith. And you choose to disregard those as well. So be it.


Philippians 1:27
"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;"

Gospel of Christ [euaggelion Christos], and again it is the very same Greek construction. No one argues this should be translated the gospel in Christ, so you see the problem isn't in the text, context, or the nuances of the Greek. The problem is in the minds of modern translators who do not understand the faith of Christ, and allow their prejudices to seep into their work. It is obvious that if it wasn't Christ who was being spoken about, the modern translators just wouldn't cast any doubt on it. It would simply be rendered "of." Thus the deviation in the way the modern versions of scripture render this verse is motivated by theological viewpoint rather than an unbiased scholarship. You might notice that there is actually no Greek word for either "of" or "in" in these verses. The fact is that we see the phrase "faith in God" and "faith in Christ" repeatedly in the KJV, so whether the word "of" or "in" is meant is entirely up to one's interpretation. I don't think anyone would debate that John 3:16 says that whosoever believes IN Christ should not perish but have everlasting life, so clearly it is faith IN Christ that saves and justifies a person.

How about Galatians 3:26, Roger?

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Clearly, we become children of God by having faith IN Christ Jesus and not by being given the faith of Christ Jesus.


Many Theologians do not like this language because it robs them of every semblance that they had anything 'at all' to do with their persuasion or faith to believe in Christ. It gives all the energy to Christ. By rendering this, 'faith in Christ' the magnificent and glorious truth of the absolute predestination and sovereignty of God is all but obliterated. Are you going to try to tell me that John 3:16 says something other than whosoever believes IN Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. It doesn't say whosoever is given the faith of Christ should not perish but have everlasting life. And, again, Gal 3:26 says we are the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus.


Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,See above at the beginning.


Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Already went over this in another post. Briefly, the Greek word for "author" is translated in other verses as "captain" (of our salvation) and "Prince" (of life). The word for "finisher" can also mean "perfecter" and this had to do with the fact that He continually works on us by the power of His Spirit throughout our Christian walks to help us mature in our faith. He continually refines us as we grow in Him. That verse has nothing to do with Jesus giving us saving faith in order to put our faith in Him for salvation.

The fact is that you can not find any verses that specifically say anything about saving faith being given to someone or being infused into someone's heart. Instead, we see over and over again the message that one must willfully repent and believe or else they will be condemned.

RogerW
Nov 7th 2008, 12:55 AM
Yes, I agree. But as long as you are going to try to spread your doctrine around here then I will continue to refute it.

Yes, and because the doctrine of free will is such an abomination unto the Sovereignty of God, I too, continue to refute this unbiblical doctrine. So, it's not in an effort to convince you, but to show how Arminians distort Scripture, and have no problems with the contradictions free will forces into the Word of God, that I continue to fight against free will.



That is not speaking of saving faith but rather an extra measure of faith that we are given upon being born of the Spirit so that we can be bold in sharing our faith with others. Nowhere does it say that people display the fruit of the Spirit in their lives even before they ever repent and believe. Think about it. If someone already has the Spirit in them why do they then need to turn from their sins? When we receive the Spirit we are immediately made new and given a new nature. We receive the Spirit after repenting and believing. Therefore, we don't yet have the fruit of the Spirit before putting our faith in Christ.

No Eric, you're wrong! It does not say the fruit of the Spirit is an extra measure of faith...it says the fruit of the Spirit is FAITH!

Why do believers need to turn from their sins? Isn't it obvious? Because we are still in our bodies of death, and we still sometimes follow our sinful flesh, instead of the Spirit living in us. Remember there is a spiritual battle being waged within between the Spirit and the flesh. This is why we need an Advocate to intercede on our behalf (1Jo 2:1).

No, we repent and receive saving faith because the Spirit enables us to. We don't have saving faith until the Spirit indwells us, giving us His fruit; love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance, all goodness, righteousness and truth (Ga 5:22,23; Eph 5:9). You see it's not only faith that is a fruit of the Spirit, but also all goodness, righteousness, and truth. Would you also argue that we have all goodness, righteousness, and truth before we are saved?



No, it says if the works of the law justified Abraham then he'd have something to boast in. You have this bad habit of twisting scripture, Roger.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Clearly, works of the law could not justify anyone, but Abraham's faith, on the other hand, was counted unto him for righteousness. He was justified by his faith rather than by doing the works of the law.

The problem Eric is that you continue to read your free will bias into the Word of God. Abraham believed God...if this is saving faith, as you believe, then Abraham has something to boast of. Because his salvation would be from his flesh. I mean who would not boast of mustering up saving faith from fallen flesh, making themself righteous before God?

No, Abraham believed God and "it was counted", the Lord "reckoned" or "considered" or "took inventory" of the UNGODLY individual, this SINNER to be just. How was He able to do this? Was it based on Abraham's faith? NO! But on the certainty that the Coming Messiah would by means of His voluntary sacrifice secure this blessing for Abraham and for all those who share Abraham's faith.

The Hebrew verb in Ro 4:3 rendered "was counted/reckoned" is frequently used to indicate what a person considered by himself, is NOT, or does NOT have, but is reckoned, held, or regarded to be, or to have. So also here (Gen 15:6; Ro 4:3) to Abraham is ascribed or imputed that which he does not himself possess. It is graciously reckoned to him because of the righteousness of Another. It is conferred on those who believe in God for their justification and salvation. Not to those who believe in an imagined saving faith they cannot have while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.



You might notice that there is actually no Greek word for either "of" or "in" in these verses. The fact is that we see the phrase "faith in God" and "faith in Christ" repeatedly in the KJV, so whether the word "of" or "in" is meant is entirely up to one's interpretation. I don't think anyone would debate that John 3:16 says that whosoever believes IN Christ should not perish but have everlasting life, so clearly it is faith IN Christ that saves and justifies a person.

How about Galatians 3:26, Roger?

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Clearly, we become children of God by having faith IN Christ Jesus and not by being given the faith of Christ Jesus.

Eric, read the context before assuming that we become children of God by having faith IN Christ. How are the children of God able to have faith IN Christ Jesus? Why does Paul say in vs 22 "that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe"? This is how Abraham can be counted as righteous. Abraham believed God, before that faith of Christ was revealed. Abraham was shut up (included or enclosed together) unto "THE faith" which would be revealed through Christ. Now "THAT faith is come", we are no longer shut up under the teaching of the law, but are the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus. Faith in Christ to be saved? NO! Faith in Christ because we are already children of God.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Are you going to try to tell me that John 3:16 says something other than whosoever believes IN Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. It doesn't say whosoever is given the faith of Christ should not perish but have everlasting life. And, again, Gal 3:26 says we are the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus.

Eric, even the devils believe. If we rest only on Jo 3:16 then we would have to conclude even the devils have everlasting life. How do you reconcile believing and saving faith? Very clearly they are not the same thing!



Already went over this in another post. Briefly, the Greek word for "author" is translated in other verses as "captain" (of our salvation) and "Prince" (of life). The word for "finisher" can also mean "perfecter" and this had to do with the fact that He continually works on us by the power of His Spirit throughout our Christian walks to help us mature in our faith. He continually refines us as we grow in Him. That verse has nothing to do with Jesus giving us saving faith in order to put our faith in Him for salvation.

How does this change the fact that the Author, Captain, Prince, Finisher, Perfecter of faith is any other than Christ? He begins faith, and He perfects or finishes the faith He began in us through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. Of course it's our faith after Christ begins this saving faith in us. It's ours because He is working in and through us to both will and do of His good pleasure. We cannot do this unless we have been given saving faith.

Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 11:21 AM
Yes, and because the doctrine of free will is such an abomination unto the Sovereignty of God, I too, continue to refute this unbiblical doctrine. So, it's not in an effort to convince you, but to show how Arminians distort Scripture, and have no problems with the contradictions free will forces into the Word of God, that I continue to fight against free will.



No Eric, you're wrong! It does not say the fruit of the Spirit is an extra measure of faith...it says the fruit of the Spirit is FAITH!

Why do believers need to turn from their sins? Isn't it obvious? Because we are still in our bodies of death, and we still sometimes follow our sinful flesh, instead of the Spirit living in us. Remember there is a spiritual battle being waged within between the Spirit and the flesh. This is why we need an Advocate to intercede on our behalf (1Jo 2:1).

No, we repent and receive saving faith because the Spirit enables us to. We don't have saving faith until the Spirit indwells us, giving us His fruit; love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance, all goodness, righteousness and truth (Ga 5:22,23; Eph 5:9). You see it's not only faith that is a fruit of the Spirit, but also all goodness, righteousness, and truth. Would you also argue that we have all goodness, righteousness, and truth before we are saved?



The problem Eric is that you continue to read your free will bias into the Word of God. Abraham believed God...if this is saving faith, as you believe, then Abraham has something to boast of. Because his salvation would be from his flesh. I mean who would not boast of mustering up saving faith from fallen flesh, making themself righteous before God?

No, Abraham believed God and "it was counted", the Lord "reckoned" or "considered" or "took inventory" of the UNGODLY individual, this SINNER to be just. How was He able to do this? Was it based on Abraham's faith? NO! But on the certainty that the Coming Messiah would by means of His voluntary sacrifice secure this blessing for Abraham and for all those who share Abraham's faith.

The Hebrew verb in Ro 4:3 rendered "was counted/reckoned" is frequently used to indicate what a person considered by himself, is NOT, or does NOT have, but is reckoned, held, or regarded to be, or to have. So also here (Gen 15:6; Ro 4:3) to Abraham is ascribed or imputed that which he does not himself possess. It is graciously reckoned to him because of the righteousness of Another. It is conferred on those who believe in God for their justification and salvation. Not to those who believe in an imagined saving faith they cannot have while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.



Eric, read the context before assuming that we become children of God by having faith IN Christ. How are the children of God able to have faith IN Christ Jesus? Why does Paul say in vs 22 "that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe"? This is how Abraham can be counted as righteous. Abraham believed God, before that faith of Christ was revealed. Abraham was shut up (included or enclosed together) unto "THE faith" which would be revealed through Christ. Now "THAT faith is come", we are no longer shut up under the teaching of the law, but are the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus. Faith in Christ to be saved? NO! Faith in Christ because we are already children of God.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Eric, even the devils believe. If we rest only on Jo 3:16 then we would have to conclude even the devils have everlasting life. How do you reconcile believing and saving faith? Very clearly they are not the same thing!



How does this change the fact that the Author, Captain, Prince, Finisher, Perfecter of faith is any other than Christ? He begins faith, and He perfects or finishes the faith He began in us through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. Of course it's our faith after Christ begins this saving faith in us. It's ours because He is working in and through us to both will and do of His good pleasure. We cannot do this unless we have been given saving faith.

Blessings,
RW

Would you agree that those that do not follow the will of God are selfwilled according to this scripture?

2 Pet 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 7th 2008, 02:33 PM
Do the following scriptures imply mans ability of self control when it comes to deciding wether to follow Christ?

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

Those that are contrary to the will of God are self willed;

2 Pet 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Firstfruits


Hello Again,

Thanks for the response. As I stated before I don't want to make this into a back forth contest picking scriptures that I think support my position. I will say that I do believe that God is loving, thus..my thought is that being that he is loving and knows all things..most would want him in some way shape or form to influence their decision making processes within life.

I see so many problems within this world when God is not the motivating factor when one makes major moral decisions within their lives. The best qualities that make up his love..like compassion, humility, mercy, truth, and justice are often overlooked and a quest for self glorification and righteousnous often becomes the main thrust of one's walk as opposed to just being loving to those around you.

Thanks for your input regarding this topic. God bless you. Matthew

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 03:37 PM
No, it says if the works of the law justified Abraham then he'd have something to boast in. You have this bad habit of twisting scripture, Roger.

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Clearly, works of the law could not justify anyone, but Abraham's faith, on the other hand, was counted unto him for righteousness. He was justified by his faith rather than by doing the works of the law.


The problem Eric is that you continue to read your free will bias into the Word of God. Abraham believed God...if this is saving faith, as you believe, then Abraham has something to boast of. Because his salvation would be from his flesh. I mean who would not boast of mustering up saving faith from fallen flesh, making themself righteous before God?


No, Abraham believed God and "it was counted", the Lord "reckoned" or "considered" or "took inventory" of the UNGODLY individual, this SINNER to be just. How was He able to do this? Was it based on Abraham's faith? NO! But on the certainty that the Coming Messiah would by means of His voluntary sacrifice secure this blessing for Abraham and for all those who share Abraham's faith.

The Hebrew verb in Ro 4:3 rendered "was counted/reckoned" is frequently used to indicate what a person considered by himself, is NOT, or does NOT have, but is reckoned, held, or regarded to be, or to have. So also here (Gen 15:6; Ro 4:3) to Abraham is ascribed or imputed that which he does not himself possess. It is graciously reckoned to him because of the righteousness of Another. It is conferred on those who believe in God for their justification and salvation. Not to those who believe in an imagined saving faith they cannot have while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.
The works that Paul refers to here are the works of the Jewish Law - the Torah. This is clear from context and has been repeatedly demonstrated exhaustively - and yet people simply refuse to accept the manifest truth.

Do you want us to make the case again? Do you want us to show how, in the last 10 verses of Romans 3, it makes much more sense to read "works" as the works or practices of the Torah rather than human self-effort in general? Or, how what Paul goes on to say in Chapter makes far better sense if we read the "works" of verse 2 as the works of the Torah?

Frankly, the difference between the position John and I are adovcating and the one you (Roger) are advocating is that we let Paul tell us what he is talking about by doing a proper and faithful analysis of the context. The context demonstrably denies your interpretation in these matters.

And by not taking context into account you improperly read Romans 4:2 as denying any "human self-effort" into the process of salvation. And you see the stuff about not having anything to boast in as countenancing that view. But, of course, the error is in your take on "works". If you were in fact correct that Paul is talking about moral self-effort generally, then your argument might have some legs.

But it is clear that the works here are the works of the Torah and the boast - as in Romans 3 - is not the boast of the morally self-righteous. It is the boast of the Jew, who thinks that doing the works of Torah - being ethnically Jewish in effect - suffices for salvation.

And with respect to the "impute" stuff: As you have done in the past, you arbitrarily go with the "impute" sense of the greek work when the entirely different "reckon" sense also works. Your argument fails to deal with the distinction between:

1. a property that is in fact imputed or ascribed to a person;
2. a property that is "freely" obtained by a person and that is then "counted" or "reckoned" for something.

You cannot simply assume reading 1 any more that I can assume reading 2.

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 04:16 PM
Yes, and because the doctrine of free will is such an abomination unto the Sovereignty of God, I too, continue to refute this unbiblical doctrine. So, it's not in an effort to convince you, but to show how Arminians distort Scripture, and have no problems with the contradictions free will forces into the Word of God, that I continue to fight against free will. It's pretty obvious by now that neither of us are going to convince the other. I'm not trying to convince you, either. I know others are following this discussion and trying to determine the truth. I'm called to fight against false doctrine and yours is definitely that. I see your doctrine as promoting elitism, discouraging evangelism and promoting the idea that God is partial, which He is not. Your doctrine ignores the passages that say God desires all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and that Jesus died for everyone's sins (1 John 2:2, John 3:16, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 Tim 2:6).

Do you have any children and/or grandchildren, Roger? Let's say that your doctrine was true and God decided to inform you that He did not choose some of your children and/or grandchildren to salvation and He decided to not give them any chance to be saved. I have to assume you would have no problem with that and you would think it's fair, right?


No Eric, you're wrong! It does not say the fruit of the Spirit is an extra measure of faith...it says the fruit of the Spirit is FAITH!

Why do believers need to turn from their sins? Isn't it obvious? Because we are still in our bodies of death, and we still sometimes follow our sinful flesh, instead of the Spirit living in us. Remember there is a spiritual battle being waged within between the Spirit and the flesh. This is why we need an Advocate to intercede on our behalf (1Jo 2:1).

No, we repent and receive saving faith because the Spirit enables us to. We don't have saving faith until the Spirit indwells us, giving us His fruit; love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance, all goodness, righteousness and truth (Ga 5:22,23; Eph 5:9). You see it's not only faith that is a fruit of the Spirit, but also all goodness, righteousness, and truth. Would you also argue that we have all goodness, righteousness, and truth before we are saved? Wait a minute. You are the one that tries to say that someone is born of the Spirit before they are saved, not me. I believe we are saved and born of the Spirit at the same time. It is that moment when the Spirit indwells us that we are saved. You try to say that we are born of the Spirit, then we repent and believe and then we're saved. But scripture doesn't teach that it happens in that order.


The problem Eric is that you continue to read your free will bias into the Word of God. Abraham believed God...if this is saving faith, as you believe, then Abraham has something to boast of. Because his salvation would be from his flesh. I mean who would not boast of mustering up saving faith from fallen flesh, making themself righteous before God? Show me scripture that says the faith by which Abraham was justified was anything but his own. I showed you clear scripture that says Abraham's faith is what justified him. You, on the other hand, have not shown any scripture that says saving faith was given to him.


No, Abraham believed God and "it was counted", the Lord "reckoned" or "considered" or "took inventory" of the UNGODLY individual, this SINNER to be just. How was He able to do this? Was it based on Abraham's faith? NO!Yes, it was. Abraham's own faith was counted, reckoned or credited to him as righteousness. Accept the text for what it says. It wasn't that he was a righteous person and wasn't a sinner. It's that his faith pleased God and God counted it to his credit. God requires people, not to be perfect, but to have faith. All people are capable of having faith, but it's a choice they have to make. You remove any responsibility from man while scripture repeatedly teaches that man is responsible to choose who they wish to serve and give their allegiance and lives to.


But on the certainty that the Coming Messiah would by means of His voluntary sacrifice secure this blessing for Abraham and for all those who share Abraham's faith.

The Hebrew verb in Ro 4:3 rendered "was counted/reckoned" is frequently used to indicate what a person considered by himself, is NOT, or does NOT have, but is reckoned, held, or regarded to be, or to have. So also here (Gen 15:6; Ro 4:3) to Abraham is ascribed or imputed that which he does not himself possess. It is graciously reckoned to him because of the righteousness of Another. It is conferred on those who believe in God for their justification and salvation. Not to those who believe in an imagined saving faith they cannot have while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. You deny the obvious. Let me show you again that Abraham had his own faith. You can't seem to fathom that one can have saving faith, but Abraham did. He chose to believe.

Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is very clear. This is saying that an individual's faith is counted for righteousness. Not faith that's given to them. Their own faith. Let's read what it says about Abraham's faith.

Romans 4
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

It's clear. The reason that Abraham was credited with righteousness is because of his strong faith in God. Look at verse 24. Anyone who believes "on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" is also credited with righteousness. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He requires people to have put their faith in Him without just giving it to them whether you want to acknowledge it or not.


Eric, read the context before assuming that we become children of God by having faith IN Christ. How are the children of God able to have faith IN Christ Jesus? Why does Paul say in vs 22 "that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe"? This is how Abraham can be counted as righteous. Abraham believed God, before that faith of Christ was revealed. Abraham was shut up (included or enclosed together) unto "THE faith" which would be revealed through Christ. Now "THAT faith is come", we are no longer shut up under the teaching of the law, but are the children of God by faith IN Christ Jesus. Faith in Christ to be saved? NO! Faith in Christ because we are already children of God.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.No. You are twisting scripture yet again. It is not faith that is given. The promise is given to those who believe in Christ. The promise is the Holy Spirit who gives us eternal life through faith in Christ.

Gal 3
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We become the children of God by having faith IN Christ Jesus. Whosoever believes IN Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Your doctrine takes the responsibility that God gives all mankind to believe in His Son away. That is a travesty. Instead, your doctrine promotes the idea of people being like zombies who have to wait to find out whether God will regenerate them or not. But scripture says that people must seek the Lord while He may be found, call on Him while He is near and forsake their evil ways while there is still time. You doctrine takes all of the urgency away from reaching the lost before it's too late because it says everything is already a done deal while the puppet show that God predetermined long ago is just running its course in the realm of time and space.


Eric, even the devils believe. If we rest only on Jo 3:16 then we would have to conclude even the devils have everlasting life. How do you reconcile believing and saving faith? Very clearly they are not the same thing! Very clearly, John 3:16 is speaking of saving faith and not just head knowledge. Otherwise, it would not make mention of obtaining everlasting life through believing in Christ. You're missing the obvious. And it speaks of "whosoever" believing in Him. It is the "whosoever" that is required to believe with saving faith in order to obtain everlasting life.


How does this change the fact that the Author, Captain, Prince, Finisher, Perfecter of faith is any other than Christ? He begins faith, and He perfects or finishes the faith He began in us through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit. Of course it's our faith after Christ begins this saving faith in us. It's ours because He is working in and through us to both will and do of His good pleasure. We cannot do this unless we have been given saving faith. It doesn't say that anywhere. You believe God withholds saving faith from most people. Why would an impartial God do that? You have no answer to that question and you won't find it in scripture because it's not true.

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 04:46 PM
Hello Again,

Thanks for the response. As I stated before I don't want to make this into a back forth contest picking scriptures that I think support my position. I will say that I do believe that God is loving, thus..my thought is that being that he is loving and knows all things..most would want him in some way shape or form to influence their decision making processes within life.

I see so many problems within this world when God is not the motivating factor when one makes major moral decisions within their lives. The best qualities that make up his love..like compassion, humility, mercy, truth, and justice are often overlooked and a quest for self glorification and righteousness often becomes the main thrust of one's walk as opposed to just being loving to those around you.

Thanks for your input regarding this topic. God bless you. Matthew

Thanks Matthew,

Would you agree that with regards to the following scriptures that although we we know that God is love and all that he has done for us not everyone will acknowledge him?

1 Jn 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 Jn 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 Jn 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 Jn 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 Jn 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Not all will believe.

Not all will acknowledge.

Not all will confess.

There are many that will deny Christ.

Whose fault is it if men do not believe, do not acknowledge, if they deny Christ?

Is this the will of God, or must we make a conscious decision to do these things?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 04:48 PM
The works that Paul refers to here are the works of the Jewish Law - the Torah. This is clear from context and has been repeatedly demonstrated exhaustively - and yet people simply refuse to accept the manifest truth.

Do you want us to make the case again? Do you want us to show how, in the last 10 verses of Romans 3, it makes much more sense to read "works" as the works or practices of the Torah rather than human self-effort in general? Or, how what Paul goes on to say in Chapter makes far better sense if we read the "works" of verse 2 as the works of the Torah?

Frankly, the difference between the position John and I are adovcating and the one you (Roger) are advocating is that we let Paul tell us what he is talking about by doing a proper and faithful analysis of the context. The context demonstrably denies your interpretation in these matters.

And by not taking context into account you improperly read Romans 4:2 as denying any "human self-effort" into the process of salvation. And you see the stuff about not having anything to boast in as countenancing that view. But, of course, the error is in your take on "works". If you were in fact correct that Paul is talking about moral self-effort generally, then your argument might have some legs.

But it is clear that the works here are the works of the Torah and the boast - as in Romans 3 - is not the boast of the morally self-righteous. It is the boast of the Jew, who thinks that doing the works of Torah - being ethnically Jewish in effect - suffices for salvation.

And with respect to the "impute" stuff: As you have done in the past, you arbitrarily go with the "impute" sense of the greek work when the entirely different "reckon" sense also works. Your argument fails to deal with the distinction between:

1. a property that is in fact imputed or ascribed to a person;
2. a property that is "freely" obtained by a person and that is then "counted" or "reckoned" for something.

You cannot simply assume reading 1 any more that I can assume reading 2.Well said. What makes it even more clear that Romans 4 is saying that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law, the Torah, is that in James 2:21 it says Abraham was justified by his works. Well, we can't allow scripture to contradict itself. Therefore, the works spoken about in Romans 4 cannot possibly be the same type of works spoken about in James 2. And by reading the preceding context in Romans 3, we can clearly see that the works mentioned in Romans 4 are works of the law.

What about an individual's faith then? Is it a work of the law? Obviously not. Is it a work of righteousness? No. Works of righteousness, such as Abraham offering his son Isaac on the altar, reflect and prove someone's faith. Faith without works is dead (James 2:20-26). It isn't that the works themselves save or justify us. It is the faith that those works reflect which justifies us. Our own faith. Abraham clearly had his own faith and it was his own faith that was credited and counted to him for righteousness.

Now, I want to try to cover this from all angles. I can see someone like Roger chiming in here and saying "Wait a minute, our righteousness is as filthy rags. How could Abraham have had his own righteousness?". Well, he didn't, but it was God who decided that He would credit Abraham's faith as righteousness. Without faith it is impossible to please God. If we are just given saving faith then why would exercising faith that was given to us please God? In that case it wouldn't really be us doing anything at all, so what would be pleasing about it? The reality is that all people are capable of putting their faith in Christ, but they are required to make a choice between believing with all their hearts in Christ or not.

Scripture does indeed teach that our righteousness is as filthy rags. It also says that all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It also teaches that all people who are not already born again are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins. But it doesn't teach that this condition means that people are incapable of making moral decisions once they are presented with the truth.

God commands "all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). He desires all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Christ came to call sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32). Since all people are sinners, how can we conclude anything but that Christ came to call all people to repentance? Yet, limited atonement adherents somehow conclude that salvation is not offered to all people. They ignore a great deal of scripture in coming to that conclusion.

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 05:07 PM
Thanks Matthew,

Would you agree that with regards to the following scriptures that although we we know that God is love and all that he has done for us not everyone will acknowledge him?

1 Jn 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 Jn 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 Jn 4:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 Jn 4:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 Jn 5:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1 Jn 5:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Not all will believe.

Not all will acknowledge.

Not all will confess.

There are many that will deny Christ.

Whose fault is it if men do not believe, do not acknowledge, if they deny Christ?

Is this the will of God, or must we make a conscious decision to do these things?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsGreat post. Here's another passage that shows that man rejects God by choice rather than because of not having the ability to believe.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Now, this passage shows that these people knew who God was but became vain in their imaginations and became fools. They did not think it worthwhile to retain God in their knowledge. Was that because of God's will or was that their own free will choice? Clearly, it was their own free will choice to become wicked and altogether reject God.

We all are separate from God before we're saved but this is speaking of people who utterly rejected God and gave their allegiance to the world and false gods and evil pleasures rather than to God. As a result they were given over to their wickedness. It was only after they repeatedly chose to rebel against God that He gave them over. He does not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked. It grieves Him when people choose to reject Him.

Would God purposely lead people to become vain in their imaginations, become fools and not retain Him in their knowledge? I would hope not! Why would He do that? Especially in light of the fact that His wrath comes down on people for doing those things. Clearly, God holds man responsible for his own decisions. If some people have no ability to repent and put their faith in Christ then why would they be condemned for not doing so and why would they experience God's wrath and be cast into the lake of fire for eternity? Does scripture's description of God's character suggest that He is a partial God who would decide that few people should be saved and receive eternal life while the rest should be damned for eternity? No, it doesn't.

Zack702
Nov 7th 2008, 05:29 PM
If this is not what it is saying let me know why?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

PS what is the scripture used?

It is Ezekial chapter 33. And yea if you want to cut to the point of it."he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul." This is the meat and bones of the chapter really.

"11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
"20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."

To clarify my thoughts. This chapter is from the old testament and is a prophecy and it is directed toward the nation of Israel however I think that all the judgement of the Lord is for our edifying.

And more specificly the precepts that are give in parable or prophetic form that state "the Lord saith" or "saith the Lord". God wanted Israel to overcome yet they went after covetousness.
Covetousness how? They were chosen righteous but they willingly coveted after sin.

"12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth."

Knowing this we also see that them who are not chosen to be righteous and have allways been wicked likewise can become righteous and will survive the sword if they are willing to turn from there wickedness.

If you ask me it is a eternal spirit speaking. Inspiring the watchmen and forging the trumpets for the things to come. Yet nothing is new except what we create by our imaginations. The things concerning Israel leading up to Jesus were purposed before hand but the people of Israel were for the most part always quick to forget that.

The reason people willingly turn from God is because the truth can be hard to take sometimes. The trumpet is sounded but because some do not believe or are not willing to hear then they will not take warning.

I do believe that God guides us even if we do not will for it, and because of God the watchmen know what to look for and how to sound there horn.
But when it comes to Jesus and the truth we should all willingly take it with thanks, then we can religiously receive it with thanks having earnestly sought God with our own heart. And having taken it we ought to take on the will of it.

Take Cain in a example.
I think Cain unwillingly received the truth when God had not respect to his offering. And so his unwillingness to accept the truth caused his countanence to fall. Yet God showed him more.

"7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

But again Cain unwillingly received the truth. And instead of turning to the truth revealed to him by God he willingly turned from the truth. All because he wanted a title he wanted to be king. But if he had willingly accepted the truth then he would of cherished his brothers sucess more than his own.

RogerW
Nov 7th 2008, 06:00 PM
Do you have any children and/or grandchildren, Roger? Let's say that your doctrine was true and God decided to inform you that He did not choose some of your children and/or grandchildren to salvation and He decided to not give them any chance to be saved. I have to assume you would have no problem with that and you would think it's fair, right?

Eric,

Instead of trying to guess the obvious; i.e. God will inform us of whom He will save, lets admit that this thought is based on emotionalism, and comes from the mind of man. Whether God has chosen to save our children or grandchildren is not what we ought to concern ourselves with.

Knowing that God saves through generations of those in covenant with Him, and that God tells us the promise is unto us and our children and to all the Lord our God shall call, we take our child rearing, and Godly instruction very seriously. I will do all that I can to make sure my children and grandchildren know the Lord. They will be instructed in the ways of the Lord, and God willing they too will one day profess they have saving faith, and love for our Lord. Salvation is of the Lord! If God has not chosen to save my family and friends can I change His mind? NO, but I be obedient, and I can evangelize them, and tell them of their need and of the Savior, Who can save them.



Wait a minute. You are the one that tries to say that someone is born of the Spirit before they are saved, not me. I believe we are saved and born of the Spirit at the same time. It is that moment when the Spirit indwells us that we are saved. You try to say that we are born of the Spirit, then we repent and believe and then we're saved. But scripture doesn't teach that it happens in that order.

Although I find the rest of your post to be the same stuff we have discussed repeatedly, I find this portion of your response very promising. I too believe we are saved and born of the Spirit at the same time. The order of salvation is simultaneous, and its difficult to know exactly how all these things that lead to eternal life come together all at once. Lets see if we can find common ground after all? I believe we are quickened (given Spiritual life) when we "hear" with ears of faith, and repent and believe. And that this quickening, or being born again of the Spirit is how we hear, and how we are able to respond in faith and repentance. This is why I keep saying faith or believing is not from me, but rather from the work of the Holy Spirit upon my heart as I am hearing His voice through the preaching of the gospel, and responding in repentance and faith through the power of the Holy Spirit. Is this also how you understand how we become saved?

Eric, do you believe, as Drew does that we can lose our salvation if we do not continue to do good works unto the Day of His Coming? I was of the impression that you believe in eternal security, so I wanted to warn you about Drew and his blindly following the doctrine of NT Wright and his New Perspective on Paul. This heresy being promoted by the New Perspective, also the Federal Vision is causing great damage in many churches today. Many have embraced this false doctrine and now teach a works righteousness for salvation. It is my hope that you too have not fallen prey to this latest attack against God's grace alone for salvation.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 7th 2008, 06:25 PM
Now, I want to try to cover this from all angles. I can see someone like Roger chiming in here and saying "Wait a minute, our righteousness is as filthy rags. How could Abraham have had his own righteousness?". Well, he didn't, but it was God who decided that He would credit Abraham's faith as righteousness. Without faith it is impossible to please God. If we are just given saving faith then why would exercising faith that was given to us please God? In that case it wouldn't really be us doing anything at all, so what would be pleasing about it? The reality is that all people are capable of putting their faith in Christ, but they are required to make a choice between believing with all their hearts in Christ or not.

Eric,

I am even more encouraged by this reply. As you have said, our righteousness is but filthy rags, as too was Abraham's. So how does God account/impute/credit/conclude the faith Abraham demostrates is righteous? He does so through Christ's righeousness. Abraham is credited with righteous faith because God sees him in Christ. The faith that we demonstrate at salvation is "ours", not because it originates from our hard hearts of flesh, but because it comes through Christ. The only faith that fallen people can put in Christ is that of the devils. It takes a supernatural influence upon our hearts to demonstrate saving faith. The only choice fallen people can make is to reject Christ, but upon hearing with ears of faith through His gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit, any person can be saved.



Scripture does indeed teach that our righteousness is as filthy rags. It also says that all people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It also teaches that all people who are not already born again are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins. But it doesn't teach that this condition means that people are incapable of making moral decisions once they are presented with the truth.

Yes, Eric, people who hear with ears of faith, any people, can and will make a choice to repent and believe. They can now do this because the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit has penetrated their hearts of stone, making them willing.



God commands "all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). He desires all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Christ came to call sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 5:32). Since all people are sinners, how can we conclude anything but that Christ came to call all people to repentance? Yet, limited atonement adherents somehow conclude that salvation is not offered to all people. They ignore a great deal of scripture in coming to that conclusion.

Yes, Christ does COMMAND ALL PEOPLE everywhere to repent and believe. Who will? Only those who hear through ears of faith because the power of the Word and Holy Spirit has done a supernatural work in their hearts making them able. Scripture nowhere teaches that salvation is only an offer. What it does teach is that salvation comes by hearing the Word, therefore the preaching of the Word goes unto all people, and all who hear, and repent and believe will be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 06:32 PM
What makes it even more clear that Romans 4 is saying that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law, the Torah, is that in James 2:21 it says Abraham was justified by his works. Well, we can't allow scripture to contradict itself. Therefore, the works spoken about in Romans 4 cannot possibly be the same type of works spoken about in James 2. And by reading the preceding context in Romans 3, we can clearly see that the works mentioned in Romans 4 are works of the law.

Exactly, and this harmonizes perfectly well with Romans 2 - another passage I suspect Roger's view contradicts - where Paul clearly shows that "good works" are indeed needed for ulitmate justification:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ROmans%202&version=31#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


What about an individual's faith then? Is it a work of the law? Obviously not. Is it a work of righteousness? No. Works of righteousness, such as Abraham offering his son Isaac on the altar, reflect and prove someone's faith.
Yes. And this, again, meshes perfectly with the Romans 2 account where the evidence is examined and judgement rendered - eternal life with God or wrath.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 06:53 PM
I am even more encouraged by this reply. As you have said, our righteousness is but filthy rags, as too was Abraham's. So how does God account/impute/credit/conclude the faith Abraham demostrates is righteous? He does so through Christ's righeousness. Abraham is credited with righteous faith because God sees him in Christ.
No. Paul never claims that we are imputed the righteousness of Christ. I have made an argument to this very effect in this thread (in relation to Romans 3:21-22).

The correct scriptural view, in my opinion is basically this:

1. Any righteousness that we might try to attain by "moral self-effort" is indeed "filthy rags";

2. However, when a person places faith in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit is given and we becomes the vessels through which He (the Spirit) does "good works". This is what Romans 8 teaches;

3. Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - we are given eternal life based on our good works. Are these the good works of the morally self-righteous (as per (1))? No. These are the good works of the Spirit acting through us, as per (2).

If you are right in saying that we "get" Christ's righteousness, what was Paul saying in Romans 2 when he said that "good works" will justify us at the end? Was he mistaken, since you (presumably) believe something else - that God "looks at us and sees Jesus' righteousness".

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 07:27 PM
Eric,

Instead of trying to guess the obvious; i.e. God will inform us of whom He will save, lets admit that this thought is based on emotionalism, and comes from the mind of man. Whether God has chosen to save our children or grandchildren is not what we ought to concern ourselves with.Oh, did I make you uncomfortable with the thought that God may have not chosen all your children and/or grandchildren to salvation? I guess that's something you'd rather not think about? Why would you not want to concern yourself with that? I didn't bring that up because of emotionalism. It is a way to get you to see the error in your doctrine. If you put your own doctrine in terms of your own family I thought maybe that could help you see a weakness in it.


Knowing that God saves through generations of those in covenant with Him, and that God tells us the promise is unto us and our children and to all the Lord our God shall call, we take our child rearing, and Godly instruction very seriously. I will do all that I can to make sure my children and grandchildren know the Lord. They will be instructed in the ways of the Lord, and God willing they too will one day profess they have saving faith, and love for our Lord. Salvation is of the Lord! If God has not chosen to save my family and friends can I change His mind? NO, but I be obedient, and I can evangelize them, and tell them of their need and of the Savior, Who can save them. So, if God did not choose some of your family to salvation you would be just fine with that? Please answer the question rather than try to tell me that it's not something you need to concern yourself with.


Although I find the rest of your post to be the same stuff we have discussed repeatedly, I find this portion of your response very promising. I too believe we are saved and born of the Spirit at the same time. The order of salvation is simultaneous, and its difficult to know exactly how all these things that lead to eternal life come together all at once.But repentance and faith come before we are saved and born of the Spirit. That is what you deny despite explicit scripture that teaches this.

2 Cor 7
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Luke 18
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Lets see if we can find common ground after all? I believe we are quickened (given Spiritual life) when we "hear" with ears of faith, and repent and believe. And that this quickening, or being born again of the Spirit is how we hear, and how we are able to respond in faith and repentance. This is why I keep saying faith or believing is not from me, but rather from the work of the Holy Spirit upon my heart as I am hearing His voice through the preaching of the gospel, and responding in repentance and faith through the power of the Holy Spirit. Is this also how you understand how we become saved? No, it isn't. That should have been obvious by now after all the discussions we've had. As I've said before, people do first need to hear the word of God and they need the Spirit to speak to their hearts and consciences. But once they hear the word and feel conviction of their sins they must respond with repentance and faith. This isn't automatic. It is a choice that people are required to make.

Acts 13
42And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


The unbelieving Jews heard the word preached but chose to reject it. They were not willing to accept it. It wasn't that they could not, but that they would not (Matt 22:3, Matt 22:37).




Eric, do you believe, as Drew does that we can lose our salvation if we do not continue to do good works unto the Day of His Coming?We are not saved by good works (Titus 3:5-7). Good works do reflect our faith which is why James said that faith without works is dead. People are known by their fruit (Matt 7:16-20). Are you sure Drew believes that? Let's allow Drew to speak for himself. Drew, if you're reading this, do you believe what Roger is claiming that you believe?


I was of the impression that you believe in eternal security, so I wanted to warn you about Drew and his blindly following the doctrine of NT Wright and his New Perspective on Paul.I'm not familiar with that doctrine, but I am somewhat undecided on the eternal security issue. I certainly feel secure in my own personal salvation. I can't imagine ever deciding that I no longer want to follow Christ. But that doesn't mean everyone is the same way.

I read scripture that says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and that no one can take us from the Son's hand or the Father's hand (John 10:28-29). That would give the impression of eternal security. On the other hand, I read scripture that speaks of people falling away from the faith. Can one fall away from something they are not part of in the first place? We know God won't forsake us, but could we forsake Him? Again, I don't feel like I ever could, but I can't speak for everyone.

I also read about the need to abide in Christ or else risk being cast off like a branch into the fire (John 15). I also read about God allowing people to be tried and tested and if they are faithful unto death, they will be given a crown of life. Is that speaking of eternal life in the kingdom of the Father that comes when Christ returns? If so, then it appears that we must maintain our faith in Christ until the end in order to be saved and be allowed entrance into the eternal kingdom of the Father when Christ returns.

So, one can make a strong argument for either eternal security or for the need to keep our faith until the end without that being a guarantee.


This heresy being promoted by the New Perspective, also the Federal Vision is causing great damage in many churches today. Many have embraced this false doctrine and now teach a works righteousness for salvation. It is my hope that you too have not fallen prey to this latest attack against God's grace alone for salvation.
Roger, I don't follow after man. You don't have to worry about that. That is a big problem with people today. They put men on a pedestal and act as if everything they teach is the truth. They're not like the Bereans who took everything they heard and searched the scriptures themselves to see if what they heard was so.

I see people practically worshiping famous preachers, past and present. I see one thread where they are touting the preaching of Charles Spurgeon. Spurgeon himself practically worshiped John Calvin because he even said that Calvinism is the gospel. Wow. You talk about putting your faith in man instead of Christ alone! And why would one want to believe everything John Calvin said? He had people murdered for having the gall to not agree with him.

How can anyone read scripture like Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5-7 and conclude that one can be saved by their own good works of righteousness? That is denying clear scripture. But where you and I differ, at least in part, is that when someone speaks of putting their faith in Christ, you see faith as a work of righteousness whereas I don't. Yes, faith can be seen as a work. The work of faith. But James clearly differentiated between faith and good works in James 2. If faith was a good work then it wouldn't make sense to say that faith without works is dead.

But, like repentance (a decision of the heart to turn from one's sins), faith is neither a work of the law nor a work of our own righteousness. It is simply a decision of the heart to recognize and acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of one's life.

Redimido
Nov 7th 2008, 07:33 PM
Great post. Here's another passage that shows that man rejects God by choice rather than because of not having the ability to believe.

It is not as thought God is asking a crippled man to walk across the street and then condemning him for not doing so. God would be unjust if he did this. God rather is asking a man, capable of walking, to walk across the street and is condemning him for not doing so.

Man is naturally capable of coming to Christ. His is however morally unable to come to Christ be cause he hates him. Can God not condemn people for reject him because they hate him so much?

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 07:41 PM
We are not saved by good works (Titus 3:5-7). Good works do reflect our faith which is why James said that faith without works is dead. People are known by their fruit (Matt 7:16-20). Are you sure Drew believes that? Let's allow Drew to speak for himself. Drew, if you're reading this, do you believe what Roger is claiming that you believe?
No I do not hold the position that Roger is ascribing to me - namely, that we can lose our salvation. Let me put a stake in the ground here first. I take Paul seriously in Romans 2 - a text many in the reformed tradition do not know what to do with - eternal life is given based on the entire life of the person.

But, as I have repeatedly stated - probably to the point of annoyance - I also take Romans 8 seriously and see that it is the Holy Spirit who is the driving power behind those works. Since the Holy Spirit will not quit, the Christian can indeed be assured that a favourable "good works" judgement will be received at the last day.

So, in summary, I do not beleive that a Christian can lose their ultimate salvation.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 07:51 PM
I was of the impression that you believe in eternal security, so I wanted to warn you about Drew and his blindly following the doctrine of NT Wright and his New Perspective on Paul. This heresy being promoted by the New Perspective, also the Federal Vision is causing great damage in many churches today. Many have embraced this false doctrine and now teach a works righteousness for salvation. It is my hope that you too have not fallen prey to this latest attack against God's grace alone for salvation.
Well, then I suspect that Paul should also be warned about the New Perspective heresy, since NT Wright is only following Paul and taking him seriously when he writes this:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202&version=31#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

The rest of what Roger states above is really a statement about what he believes to be the case. Fair enough, but I would rather discuss the Scriptures and see what they have to say. The above text from Romans 2 asserts the very thing that Roger denies in the following:


Many have embraced this false doctrine and now teach a works righteousness for salvation
If "works righteousness" is good enough for Paul, it is good enough for me. I would be interested to see how Roger sees the Romans 2 text. Watch what people do with Romans 2. If you see people saying "Paul doesn't really mean this" or "Paul is telling us about a path to justification that zero persons will actually take", that is the hint that there is something wrong in the exegesis.

Let's remember - the Westminster Confession is not inspired scripture, Calvin is not inspired scripture, scripture is inspired scripture.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 07:57 PM
How can anyone read scripture like Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5-7 and conclude that one can be saved by their own good works of righteousness?
Indeed. But watch what some people will do here (and I am not talking about Roger who, along with 9MarksFan are, if I may say, far and away the most gentlemanly "Calvinists" I have ever encountered, even if we disagree).

However there are those who will - and I cannot see it is possible for this to not be intentional misrepresentation - simply try to fool others into thinking that when I (or others) assert "salvation by good works", we are asserting "salvation by moral self-effort". And they do this knowing full well that we have been clear that the "good works" that save are really the work of the Holy Spirit. And that the Spirit is given to us by faith.

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 08:17 PM
Eric,

I am even more encouraged by this reply. As you have said, our righteousness is but filthy rags, as too was Abraham's. So how does God account/impute/credit/conclude the faith Abraham demostrates is righteous? He does so through Christ's righeousness. Abraham is credited with righteous faith because God sees him in Christ. The faith that we demonstrate at salvation is "ours", not because it originates from our hard hearts of flesh, but because it comes through Christ. The only faith that fallen people can put in Christ is that of the devils.Show me scripture that teaches that.


It takes a supernatural influence upon our hearts to demonstrate saving faith. The only choice fallen people can make is to reject Christ,Again, where does scripture teach this?


but upon hearing with ears of faith through His gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit, any person can be saved. You should not say "any person can be saved" when you know full well that you don't believe that.


Yes, Eric, people who hear with ears of faith, any people, can and will make a choice to repent and believe. They can now do this because the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit has penetrated their hearts of stone, making them willing. It's that "making them willing" part that I disagree with. Again, you provide no scriptural support for your claim. Once people are shown the truth it is their responsibility to choose what to do with it. To either reject it or accept it. We see examples of this throughout scripture and you deny them all. I have shown you clear scripture that shows that people reject the gospel because they are not willing rather than not being able and you just dismiss it. You say they are not able. If that was the case then scripture would say so. Instead of saying "they would not" it would have said "they could not".


Yes, Christ does COMMAND ALL PEOPLE everywhere to repent and believe. Who will? Only those who hear through ears of faith because the power of the Word and Holy Spirit has done a supernatural work in their hearts making them able.Explain why God would command all people everywhere to repent if not all people everywhere are able to repent. Do you think God was confused when issuing that command? You keep dodging this issue repeatedly but you need to address it.


Scripture nowhere teaches that salvation is only an offer.Sure it does.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Matthew 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14For many are called, but few are chosen.

This parable is all about the offer of salvation. Notice that some were invited to the wedding but they would not come. That is referring to the Jews. It doesn't say they could not come. They would not. They were not willing. They willingly chose to reject the gospel. But the offer was there. They were called to salvation.

Luke 5
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

We know that all people are sinners and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. All sinners. That means all people since all people are sinners. The offer of salvation is for all people. The way one receives the gift is by repenting and with all their heart putting their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. With the heart man believes unto righteousness (Rom 10:10).

We know God desires all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) and to come to repentance (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9). So, since not all people are saved then we can only conclude that the ones who are not saved rejected the offer of salvation.


What it does teach is that salvation comes by hearing the Word, therefore the preaching of the Word goes unto all people, and all who hear, and repent and believe will be saved. Exactly. Yet, you somehow conclude that some people are never given the capability of hearing, repenting and believing. I believe scripture clearly teaches otherwise.

You make God out to be a partial God who always does as He pleases without giving man any responsibility to choose, including withholding any chance for salvation from most. Therefore, in that case, it would seem that God would take pleasure in the death of the wicked, right? Would it not have pleased Him to not offer them salvation and not give them the ability to believe in Christ so that they would be condemned to the lake of fire for eternity? Don't you believe He decided to not give them a chance to believe in Christ by His own good pleasure? Yet, scripture says He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but instead desires that the wicked turn from their evil ways and live (Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11).

Toolman
Nov 7th 2008, 08:24 PM
The rest of what Roger states above is really a statement about what he believes to be the case. Fair enough, but I would rather discuss the Scriptures and see what they have to say. The above text from Romans 2 asserts the very thing that Roger denies in the following:

If "works righteousness" is good enough for Paul, it is good enough for me. I would be interested to see how Roger sees the Romans 2 text. Watch what people do with Romans 2. If you see people saying "Paul doesn't really mean this" or "Paul is telling us about a path to justification that zero persons will actually take", that is the hint that there is something wrong in the exegesis.

Actually exegesis MUST include what Paul declares not only in Romans 2 but in Romans 3 as his FULL thoughts become clear and he answers exactly what he means by Romans 2:

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul is as clear here as he can be that the WHOLE world is guilty before God because of the Law (man's sin against it) and that by keeping the Law no human being will be declared righteous.

So be wary of an exegesis that simply camps on Romans 2 and does not take into account the fullness of Paul's thought here which brings the whole world under the guilt of sin via the Law and presents the way of salvation as faith in Christ alone.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2008, 08:36 PM
Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Only God is good.
Man is not good, therefore man cannot do what is good, unless God intervenes and makes that which is good happen.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

The faith that Abraham had, was given by God. Even though it was his faith, it was still given.

Our believing, our faith, our repentance and every other 'good' thing, that we need to be saved, is from God, and God alone.

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

"First pure"
'Pure' comes only from God, and is untainted by man.
Even though we are of the foolishness of the world, God gives us wisdom that saves.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 08:47 PM
Actually exegesis MUST include what Paul declares not only in Romans 2 but in Romans 3 as his FULL thoughts become clear and he answers exactly what he means by Romans 2:

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul is as clear here as he can be that the WHOLE world is guilty before God because of the Law (man's sin against it) and that by keeping the Law no human being will be declared righteous.
While I agree with the principle in your first para, I do not agree with your analysis. And I should hasten to add that I should have included you in my list of "gentlemanly" Calvinists. I have not interacted with you for a while, but I recall that you are always polite.

One of the problems with your argument is that you still have Paul saying something untrue in Romans 2. And there is no evidence in Romans 2 to suggest that Paul is speaking about a path to justification that zero persons will take.

So your explanation here really seems to be of the form: "we know from Romans 3 that Paul cannot have meant what he said in Romans 2". That is not very convincing, especially where this an explanation that accomodates both Romans 2 - taking it as it is written - and Romans 3 - taking it, as well, as written.

That explanation is this:

1. Romans 1 to 4 is largely a treatment of how God has fulfilled the covenant in Jesus Christ - there is therefore a timeline aspect to the treatment. I will return to this;

2. Romans 2:6-13 looks ahead to the very end and says that "good works" are the basis for ultimate salvatation. Since there is no hint that Paul does not mean what he says, we take this as truth.

3. Romans 3 begins with a treatment of the Jews not being faithful to the covenant. And we get the famous "all have sinned" argument. In verse 21, we get a "but now", literally "in the present time..." And then Paul explains how Christ has fulfilled the covenant. The stuff from earlier in the chapter is not a timeless truth about men not being able to "do good" - it is a description of what is the case before God acts "in the present time".

4. This reading allows us to avoid the awkward position that "Romans 3:1-20" tells us that Paul was "just kidding" in Romans 2. Instead, Romans 3:1-20 is seen as Paul's analysis of the plight of the Jew, unable to keep covenant promises, and the equally fallen state of the Gentile. All are in Adam indeed.

5. But this does not give us a license to engage in revionism of Romans. In Romans 3:1-20, Paul is describing the state of the world before the "in the present time" events of verse 21 and 22.

6. With the covenant fulfilled by Jesus, men are indeed enabled to do "good works" as Romans 8 so clearly teaches.

7. That Romans 1 to 4 is indeed a timeline is supported by Romans 1 effectively re-telling the story of the fall.

So we see that there is a better reading of Romans 3 - one that harmonizes with Romans 2, rather than over-ruling Romans 2. And Romans 8 finishes the picture, explaining exactly how it is that we can indeed pass that Romans 2 judgement.

And, by the way, Romans 3:21 is not addressing "good works", it is talking about the Law of Moses. For that reason, it too, harmonizes with Romans 2.

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 08:50 PM
Indeed. But watch what some people will do here (and I am not talking about Roger who, along with 9MarksFan are, if I may say, far and away the most gentlemanly "Calvinists" I have ever encountered, even if we disagree).Yes, as much as we disagree, both Roger and 9MarksFan restrain themselves well despite the fact that they are very passionate about what they believe just as you and I are.

I've never really debated this issue on other forums, so I'll take your word for that. Although I did see a Calvinist blog once where people could leave comments and the comments they made were quite arrogant and condescending towards anyone who dared disagree with them. I'm thinking you may have run into a few of those people on other forums.


However there are those who will - and I cannot see it is possible for this to not be intentional misrepresentation - simply try to fool others into thinking that when I (or others) assert "salvation by good works", we are asserting "salvation by moral self-effort". And they do this knowing full well that we have been clear that the "good works" that save are really the work of the Holy Spirit. And that the Spirit is given to us by faith.I believe Roger should apologize for misrepresenting your view. I mean, we should be allowed to say that we are justified by faith and works without people jumping to conclusions about our beliefs since James explicitly says so.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It should be a given that those works are not done in our own power. We are expected to cooperate with the Spirit, but He does the work. Apart from Christ we can do nothing (do no good works, produce no good fruit - John 15:5).

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 09:00 PM
Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. That has to do with the gospel going out unto the Gentiles even though they were not seeking Christ. This in no way means that they did not have to make a choice regarding whether to believe in Christ or not.


Only God is good.
Man is not good, therefore man cannot do what is good, unless God intervenes and makes that which is good happen.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

The faith that Abraham had, was given by God. Even though it was his faith, it was still given.Where does it say that?


Our believing, our faith, our repentance and every other 'good' thing, that we need to be saved, is from God, and God alone.Where does it say that?


1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? This verse doesn't say that saving faith is given to us.


James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Again, I don't see how this says that we are given saving faith. In that same chapter we read:

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

We see this same concept here:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

If saving faith is just given to us by God then why does it need to be tried and tested? It makes much more sense that our own faith would need to be tried and tested.


James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

"First pure"
'Pure' comes only from God, and is untainted by man.
Even though we are of the foolishness of the world, God gives us wisdom that saves.I believe you're reading a lot into these texts that isn't there.

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 09:03 PM
While I agree with the principle in your first para, I do not agree with your analysis. And I should hasten to add that I should have included you in my list of "gentlemanly" Calvinists. I have not interacted with you for a while, but I recall that you are always polite.FYI, if I recall correctly, Toolman is a Universalist, not a Calvinist. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it might help you to know where he's coming from.

Toolman
Nov 7th 2008, 09:09 PM
While I agree with the principle in your first para, I do not agree with your analysis. And I should hasten to add that I should have included you in my list of "gentlemanly" Calvinists. I have not interacted with you for a while, but I recall that you are always polite.

Thanks :), even though I am reformed in much of my soteriology I am rarely called a calvinist because of my view on limited atonement but I appreciate the "gentlemanly" comment.

We can disagree on theological differences and still find our love and bond in the person of Jesus Christ.


One of the problems with your argument is that you still have Paul saying something untrue in Romans 2.

What Paul states is true. Just because a person does not to follow that path does not make the path false. One can be justified by keeping the Law, if one keeps the Law.


And there is no evidence in Romans 2 to suggest that Paul is speaking about a path to justification that zero persons will take.

Correct, one must continue his thought fully, into chapter 3, to get a full understanding of his point.


So your explanation here really seems to be of the form: "we know from Romans 3 that Paul cannot have meant what he said in Romans 2". That is not very convincing

It has been quite convincing to many extremely intelligent, educated, logical and godly men of God through many years. Saying something isn't convincing doesn't make it not convincing :)


1. Romans 1 to 4 is largely a treatment of how God has fulfilled the covenant in Jesus Christ - there is therefore a timeline aspect to the treatment. I will return to this;

2. Romans 2:6-13 looks ahead to the very end and says that "good works" are the basis for ultimate salvatation. Since there is no hint that Paul does not mean what he says, we take this as truth.

3. Romans 3 begins with a treatment of the Jews not being faithful to the covenant. And we get the famous "all have sinned" argument. In verse 21, we get a "but now", literally "in the present time..." And then Paul explains how Christ has fulfilled the covenant. The stuff from earlier in the chapter is not a timeless truth about men not being able to "do good" - it is a description of what is the case before God acts "in the present time".

4. This reading allows us to avoid the awkward position that "Romans 3:1-20" tells us that Paul was "just kidding" in Romans 2. Instead, Romans 3:1-20 is seen as Paul's analysis of the plight of the Jew, unable to keep covenant promises, and the equally fallen state of the Gentile. All are in Adam indeed.

5. But this does not give us a license to engage in revionism of Romans. In Romans 3:1-20, Paul is describing the state of the world before the "in the present time" events of verse 21 and 22.

6. With the covenant fulfilled by Jesus, men are indeed enabled to do "good works" as Romans 8 so clearly teaches.

No one has argued that men are not enabled, by faith in Christ, to do good works. No reformed believer would ever argue with that fact.

The point of the argument is not are men enabled to do good works but what is it that justifies (makes a person righteous before God) and the reformed believer will point to the logical argument of Paul here in Romans 2-3 as pointing to faith in Christ alone, His atoning death and His resurrection as the only thing that justifies a person before God.


7. That Romans 1 to 4 is indeed a timeline is supported by Romans 1 effectively re-telling the story of the fall.

So we see that there is a better reading of Romans 3 - one that harmonizes with Romans 2, rather than over-ruling Romans 2.

Paul uses comparison/contrast throughout every single epistle he writes. This is no exception. He compares/contrasts justification by Law (which no one will attain to because they sin) and justification by faith in Christ alone.

It's not an overruling, its Paul's style of writing.


And, by the way, Romans 3:21 is not addressing "good works", it is talking about the Law of Moses. For that reason, it too, harmonizes with Romans 2.

Romans 2 is speaking of the Law of Moses, "good works" are synonymous with the Law:

Romans 2
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
The Jews Guilty as the Gentiles

17 Indeed[b] you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,”[c] as it is written.
Circumcision of No Avail

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Toolman
Nov 7th 2008, 09:12 PM
FYI, if I recall correctly, Toolman is a Universalist, not a Calvinist. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it might help you to know where he's coming from.

I am, for the most part, reformed in my soteriology. The biggest difference I have my with reformed brothers is, yes, over the issue of limited atonement.

But for the sake of this discussion that does not play into the discussion of Romans 2-3. I believe, with all my heart, that a person is justified simply upon faith in the person of Christ and his atoning death and resurrection, apart from any good works done by the Spirit in that person's life. Good works are a result of justification not the cause of it.

Now, if we were talking about Romans 9-11 then it would be an issue :)

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 09:13 PM
Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Only God is good.
Man is not good, therefore man cannot do what is good, unless God intervenes and makes that which is good happen.

James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

The faith that Abraham had, was given by God. Even though it was his faith, it was still given.

Our believing, our faith, our repentance and every other 'good' thing, that we need to be saved, is from God, and God alone.

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

"First pure"
'Pure' comes only from God, and is untainted by man.
Even though we are of the foolishness of the world, God gives us wisdom that saves.

When you came to Christ were there things you had to give up?

When you heard the word did you like what you were being told?

Did you make a discision to change from your life of sin to a life that would be pleasing to God?

Knowing that it is Gods will that all men should be saved and that none should be lost, I believe you chose to do that which is right in the sight of God.

Firstfruits

Zack702
Nov 7th 2008, 09:25 PM
Under the "law" sinners are not saved in any way but are put to death for there sin. But since we have Jesus Christ as our priest sinners can be saved and even be found righteous based upon there faith in there salvation from sins.

And if someone has faith in Jesus Christ then they ought to know who it is they are placing there faith in. And if they know who it is they are placing there faith in then they will seek to understand there ways and there teachings. And if they understand his ways and his teachings then they will understand what good works are. And if they understand what good works are then they will be ever vigilant to complete them.

Not that by our own works we are righteous because they are not our own works. Our own works are after our own desires. But the good works which are of the Lord surely we are to do and with joy that we have the opportunity being faithfull that our reward is with the Lord. Else if we have the opportunity to do them and we do not then what work is it we have done but the work of our own desires.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 09:30 PM
I believe Roger should apologize for misrepresenting your view.
To be fair to Roger, I hope I never intended to state or imply that he intentionally misrepresented any of my views. I was talking about others - and these others are not on this board.

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 09:31 PM
Under the "law" sinners are not saved in any way but are put to death for there sin. But since we have Jesus Christ as our priest sinners can be saved and even be found righteous based upon there faith in there salvation from sins.

And if someone has faith in Jesus Christ then they ought to know who it is they are placing there faith in. And if they know who it is they are placing there faith in then they will seek to understand there ways and there teachings. And if they understand his ways and his teachings then they will understand what good works are. And if they understand what good works are then they will be ever vigilant to complete them.

Not that by our own works we are righteous because they are not our own works. Our own works are after our own desires. But the good works which are of the Lord surely we are to do and with joy that we have the opportunity being faithfull that our reward is with the Lord. Else if we have the opportunity to do them and we do not then what work is it we have done but the work of our own desires.

What about those that do not know who Jesus is, even though they have heard the gospel?

Do all believe?

Will all receive?

Will all be saved?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 09:35 PM
What Paul states is true. Just because a person does not to follow that path does not make the path false. One can be justified by keeping the Law, if one keeps the Law.
I do not think this is right. Paul no less than three times re-asserts that those who do "good works" will get eternal life. And he precedes this by a statement that God will give to each person according to what he has done (verse 6). You really do not have the wiggle room to claim that Paul is describing a path to justification that is only hypothetical. Remember:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

If your position, as I understand it is correct, this is not actually true. So how is this not a denial of what Paul plainly states here.

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 09:37 PM
I am, for the most part, reformed in my soteriology. The biggest difference I have my with reformed brothers is, yes, over the issue of limited atonement. Right. I just thought Drew should know that you don't hold to all of the Calvinist doctrines, which he probably assumed.


But for the sake of this discussion that does not play into the discussion of Romans 2-3. I believe, with all my heart, that a person is justified simply upon faith in the person of Christ and his atoning death and resurrection, apart from any good works done by the Spirit in that person's life. Good works are a result of justification not the cause of it.I agree. It does say in James 2:24 that we are justified by faith and good works. But in the case of Abraham and Rahab their works reflected their faith so in actuality they were justified by their faith which was reflected in their works. If they were justified by the works themselves then that would contradict verses like Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5.


Now, if we were talking about Romans 9-11 then it would be an issue :)If we start talking about Romans 9-11 then this thread will last a lot longer than it would have otherwise. :)

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 09:42 PM
Right. I just thought Drew should know that you don't hold to all of the Calvinist doctrines, which he probably assumed.

I agree. It does say in James 2:24 that we are justified by faith and good works. But in the case of Abraham and Rahab their works reflected their faith so in actuality they were justified by their faith which was reflected in their works. If they were justified by the works themselves then that would contradict verses like Ephesians 2:8 and Titus 3:5.

If we start talking about Romans 9-11 then this thread will last a lot longer than it would have otherwise. :)

Are these good works the things that accompany salvation?

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2008, 10:39 PM
That has to do with the gospel going out unto the Gentiles even though they were not seeking Christ. This in no way means that they did not have to make a choice regarding whether to believe in Christ or not.

Where does it say that?

Where does it say that?

This verse doesn't say that saving faith is given to us.

Again, I don't see how this says that we are given saving faith. In that same chapter we read:

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

We see this same concept here:

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

If saving faith is just given to us by God then why does it need to be tried and tested? It makes much more sense that our own faith would need to be tried and tested.

I believe you're reading a lot into these texts that isn't there.

But of course you do. How else can you deny what is the truth.
That is why I lean to what is written, rather then to what you believe.

Toolman
Nov 7th 2008, 10:43 PM
I do not think this is right. Paul no less than three times re-asserts that those who do "good works" will get eternal life.

As I said, one who keeps the Law will be justified by the Law.


And he precedes this by a statement that God will give to each person according to what he has done (verse 6). You really do not have the wiggle room to claim that Paul is describing a path to justification that is only hypothetical.

Its NOT hypothetical. It is an actual path to justification. Just because no man has ever taken it (because all have sinned) does not mean it is hypothetical.

There is also another path, which is exactly what Paul states in Romans 3, that God has now revealed that path... faith in Christ alone and His atoning death and resurrection apart from the Law.


Remember:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

Are you placing your hope in that God will give you according to what you have done? That when He judges you that He renders to you what you deserve based on what you have done?


If your position, as I understand it is correct, this is not actually true. So how is this not a denial of what Paul plainly states here.

Because the sin that we have committed, against God and His Law, is atoned for and not counted against us because of the person and work of Jesus Christ alone.

Therefore we stand before God in a position of rightness with Him (justified) not because of what we have done but because of what He has done.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2008, 10:52 PM
When you came to Christ were there things you had to give up?

No


When you heard the word did you like what you were being told?

Yes


Did you make a discision to change from your life of sin to a life that would be pleasing to God?

No


Knowing that it is Gods will that all men should be saved and that none should be lost, I believe you chose to do that which is right in the sight of God.

Firstfruits

You believe wrong

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 11:39 PM
And there is no evidence in Romans 2 to suggest that Paul is speaking about a path to justification that zero persons will take.


Correct, one must continue his thought fully, into chapter 3, to get a full understanding of his point.
There are a number of problems with the "we need to wait till chapter 3" argument. Remember that Paul says this in chapter 2:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

I suggest that your position forces us to conclude this is a false statement by Paul. And I assume we all agree we cannot have that. Here is my argument.

1. In Romans 2:6, Paul states that each person will receive accorrding to what they have done. And what he goes on to say in verse 7 shows that eternal life is at issue. So there is no doubt that Paul is talking about a path to justification.

2. If Romans 3 shows that zero persons will take that path, and if it is also true that there will be some people who indeed get eternal life (through some other way), then what is the status of the statement "God will give to each person according to what he has done"?

3. It must be false, precisely because God gives to some - the ones who get eternal life through this other means - in some manner not in accordance to what they have done.

I therefore do not think that that the "Romans 3 clarifies Romans 2 argument by showing that zero take the 'good works' path" works - if you actually work out the implications, the 2:6 must be seen as false on such a view.

drew
Nov 7th 2008, 11:51 PM
1. Romans 1 to 4 is largely a treatment of how God has fulfilled the covenant in Jesus Christ - there is therefore a timeline aspect to the treatment. I will return to this;

2. Romans 2:6-13 looks ahead to the very end and says that "good works" are the basis for ultimate salvatation. Since there is no hint that Paul does not mean what he says, we take this as truth.

3. Romans 3 begins with a treatment of the Jews not being faithful to the covenant. And we get the famous "all have sinned" argument. In verse 21, we get a "but now", literally "in the present time..." And then Paul explains how Christ has fulfilled the covenant. The stuff from earlier in the chapter is not a timeless truth about men not being able to "do good" - it is a description of what is the case before God acts "in the present time".

4. This reading allows us to avoid the awkward position that "Romans 3:1-20" tells us that Paul was "just kidding" in Romans 2. Instead, Romans 3:1-20 is seen as Paul's analysis of the plight of the Jew, unable to keep covenant promises, and the equally fallen state of the Gentile. All are in Adam indeed.

5. But this does not give us a license to engage in revionism of Romans. In Romans 3:1-20, Paul is describing the state of the world before the "in the present time" events of verse 21 and 22.

6. With the covenant fulfilled by Jesus, men are indeed enabled to do "good works" as Romans 8 so clearly teaches.


No one has argued that men are not enabled, by faith in Christ, to do good works. No reformed believer would ever argue with that fact.

The point of the argument is not are men enabled to do good works but what is it that justifies (makes a person righteous before God) and the reformed believer will point to the logical argument of Paul here in Romans 2-3 as pointing to faith in Christ alone, His atoning death and His resurrection as the only thing that justifies a person before God.

But you have not engaged my argument, which show a way that avoids the need to make the exceedingly awkward, if not downright impossible (see my last post) move of saying that Paul is speaking in Romans 2 about a path that zero persons will take and that does not make Paul mistaken when he states that each person will receive in accordance with what they have done. On your view, this statement is false -there are some who receive in accordance with something other than what they have done.

How is that you are simply doing nothing other than re-stating your position here? You have a challenge before you. My argument above does not require us to do anything awkward or forced with any text - such as yours does with the Romans 2 text. What would you say to a "shopper" who says "Why shouldn't I buy Drew's argument?"

And, if you remember our interactions of long ago, you will know that my full position does not deny justification by faith. My full position accommodates all the relevant texts and does not make Romans 2:6 false. My position is basically that through faith and faith alone people are given the Spirit and the Spirit acts through them to transform them into the kind of person who will pass the Romans 2 "good works" judgement.

drew
Nov 8th 2008, 12:09 AM
Romans 2 is speaking of the Law of Moses, "good works" are synonymous with the Law:
I do not see how this is possible. Throughout Romans, Paul uses the term "Law" to refer to the Torah - the law of Moses. The Torah is not the same thing as "good works" although it does include good works. But when Paul refers to "works" in Romans, he almost always does so in a manner that makes it clear that he is referring to those practices of the Torah that mark the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. These include such things as circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher food laws.

The reference to "law" late in Romans 3 demonstrates this. Here is the relevant text:

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

The fair and proper way to resolve this is not to say "is it possible that Paul want us to understand that "law" = "good works". Of course its possible - but it make Paul into a confused and misleading writer. The better approach is to ask which of the following, each possible, makes better sense in context:

1. Law means good works;
2. Law means Torah and specifically those aspects of Torah that mark Jew from Gentile.

And there can be no doubt, explanation 2 works far batter. Why? Because explanation makes sense of verse 29. If view 2 is correct, then Paul can be seen as saying - people are not saved by the ethnic specificities of Torah and therefore we conclude that God is the God of Jews and Gentiles.

If view 1 is correct, then the statement of verse 29 seems entirely irrelevant and a complete change of direction. If Paul is really saying that we are not justified by "good works", how does this feed into a statement about how both Jew and Gentile benefit? After all, earlier in the chapter, Paul has just shown that Jew and Gentile are in the exact same fallen state! This incongruity - the obvious irrelevance of the Jew - Gentile question to a denial of justification by "good works" - should be a red flag that something is amiss in the exegesis.

Toolman
Nov 8th 2008, 12:45 AM
There are a number of problems with the "we need to wait till chapter 3" argument. Remember that Paul says this in chapter 2:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

I suggest that your position forces us to conclude this is a false statement by Paul. And I assume we all agree we cannot have that. Here is my argument.

1. In Romans 2:6, Paul states that each person will receive accorrding to what they have done. And what he goes on to say in verse 7 shows that eternal is at issue. So there is no doubt that Paul is talking about a path to justification.

Drew,

Is God going to condemn you for the sins you have committed?

If you answer "no" then you have already made Paul a liar because he clearly says God will judge according to what you have done.


2. If Romans 3 shows that zero persons will take that path, and if it is also true that there will be some people who indeed get eternal (through some other way), then what is the status of the statement "God will give to each person according to what he has done"?

As I stated, since our sin is forgiven (not counted against) God does give to each according to what he has done. They stand righteous before Him not because of works but because of atoning blood.


3. It must be false, precisely because God gives to some - the ones who get eternal life through this other means - in some manner not in accordance to what they have done.

Paul has already stated there is another way:

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.


I therefore do not think that that the "Romans 3 clarifies Romans 2 argument by showing that zero take the 'good works' path" works - if you actually work out the implications, the 2:6 must be seen as false on such a view.

Romans 3 clearly shows that none are justified by the Law and to imply that Paul is not speaking about the Law in Romans 2 is a huge stretch since he mentions Law over 20 times. To make some false dichotomy between "good works" and the Law is at best awkward in context.

Toolman
Nov 8th 2008, 12:53 AM
[/I]How is that you are simply doing nothing other than re-stating your position here? You have a challenge before you. My argument above does not require us to do anything awkward or forced with any text - such as yours does with the Romans 2 text. What would you say to a "shopper" who says "Why shouldn't I buy Drew's argument?"

Your position is much more awkward and challenging within the context of Romans (which is why its a "new perspective").

Law only means Law when its convenient and "good works" are something different even though Law is used over 20 times in Romans 2 to describe the things that Paul is speaking of in context of good works. A very awkward and confusing reading of the text.

The more natural understanding, especially in an eastern understanding, is that of comparison/contrast which Paul is the master of and he is here comparing/contrasting Law and Gospel.


And, if you remember our interactions of long ago, you will know that my full position does not deny justification by faith. My full position accommodates all the relevant texts and does not make Romans 2:6 false. My position is basically that through faith and faith alone people are given the Spirit and the Spirit acts through them to transform them into the kind of person who will pass the Romans 2 "good works" judgement.

I understand we are speaking of subtle differences. My position is that a person passes God's judgement based solely upon the atoning blood of Christ and nothing else.

My position (reformed) does deny that the Spirit indwells the believer and brings forth righteous fruit. It justs does state that our sin is forgiven because of that work of the Spirit. Our sin is forgiven for one reason only, the blood of Christ.

BTW - Do you believe this work of the Spirit (bring forth fruit in the believer that will position them to receieve eternal life) can be resisted? Just a side thought.

Toolman
Nov 8th 2008, 12:59 AM
I do not see how this is possible. Throughout Romans, Paul uses the term "Law" to refer to the Torah - the law of Moses. The Torah is not the same thing as "good works" although it does include good works. But when Paul refers to "works" in Romans, he almost always does so in a manner that makes it clear that he is referring to those practices of the Torah that mark the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. These include such things as circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher food laws.

The reference to "law" late in Romans 3 demonstrates this. Here is the relevant text:

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

The fair and proper way to resolve this is not to say "is it possible that Paul want us to understand that "law" = "good works". Of course its possible - but it make Paul into a confused and misleading writer. The better approach is to ask which of the following, each possible, makes better sense in context:

1. Law means good works;
2. Law means Torah and specifically those aspects of Torah that mark Jew from Gentile.

And there can be no doubt, explanation 2 works far batter. Why? Because explanation makes sense of verse 29. If view 2 is correct, then Paul can be seen as saying - people are not saved by the ethnic specificities of Torah and therefore we conclude that God is the God of Jews and Gentiles.

If view 1 is correct, then the statement of verse 29 seems entirely irrelevant and a complete change of direction. If Paul is really saying that we are not justified by "good works", how does this feed into a statement about how both Jew and Gentile benefit? After all, earlier in the chapter, Paul has just shown that Jew and Gentile are in the exact same fallen state! This incongruity - the obvious irrelevance of the Jew - Gentile question to a denial of justification by "good works" - should be a red flag that something is amiss in the exegesis.

Nope.

Paul IMMEDIATELY uses Law in context of Romans 2 IMMEDIATELY following the description of "good works" that you are camping on:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.


Now, you would have us believe that Paul has just completely left his thought and turned to Jewish dietary/ceremonial Laws but it is extremely clear that in context he has not left his thoughts.

When Paul is speaking here of Law he is still in context of his thoughts and clearly speaking about the "good works" that he has just mentioned.

That is one glaring reason the "shopper" should be cautious of Drew's kool aid :).

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 01:19 PM
No



Yes



No



You believe wrong

With the understanding that we are all under sin, did you not have to change your life as a sinner to a life of righteousness?

We are not born righteous, so how could you not have changed?

Firstfruits

drew
Nov 8th 2008, 03:08 PM
There are a number of problems with the "we need to wait till chapter 3" argument. Remember that Paul says this in chapter 2:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

I suggest that your position forces us to conclude this is a false statement by Paul. And I assume we all agree we cannot have that. Here is my argument.

1. In Romans 2:6, Paul states that each person will receive accorrding to what they have done. And what he goes on to say in verse 7 shows that eternal is at issue. So there is no doubt that Paul is talking about a path to justification.

Drew,

Is God going to condemn you for the sins you have committed?

If you answer "no" then you have already made Paul a liar because he clearly says God will judge according to what you have done.
You are ascribing a position to me that I do not hold.

My answer to your question is indeed "no", but such an answer is entirely consistent with Paul. In his Romans 2 account, Paul says that those who "do good" get life and those who do evil "get wrath".

This does not mean that if Fred lives a substantially good life, but commits a sin here and there, he will get wrath. The structure of Paul's argument forces us to see that there are these two distinct groups with two distinct fates. Paul must be speaking in general terms.

One can only get one of the two stated fates. So even though it is true that a substantially good person will indeed commit some sin, this does not mean he gets both life and wrath.

drew
Nov 8th 2008, 03:14 PM
2. If Romans 3 shows that zero persons will take that path, and if it is also true that there will be some people who indeed get eternal (through some other way), then what is the status of the statement "God will give to each person according to what he has done"?

As I stated, since our sin is forgiven (not counted against) God does give to each according to what he has done. They stand righteous before Him not because of works but because of atoning blood.
This does not solve the problem. In Romans 2, Paul says each person receives in accordance with what they have done. Your explanation simply denies this - you say that some people do not receive according to what they have done but according to something else - Christ's atoning blood.

drew
Nov 8th 2008, 03:28 PM
3. It must be false, precisely because God gives to some - the ones who get eternal life through this other means - in some manner not in accordance to what they have done.

Paul has already stated there is another way:

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.
The statement that "there is another way" is forces one to conclude that this statement is false:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

If the word "law" here in 3:21 meant good works, then we would indeed have a problem. We would have Paul saying in chapter 2 that the only basis of justification is what we do - and he clearly does say this in chapter 2 - and then here in chapter 3, we have him saying that there is a way other than good works. And that forces us to conclude that Paul contradicts himself.

But, in fact, Paul is entirely consistent. He means what he says in Romans 2 - each person (not some people, but each person) will be justified by what they do. And since, as can be easily shown, Paul's reference to "law" here is a reference to the Law of Moses - the Torah, Romans 3:21 is merely the statement that being under Torah - being ethnically Jewish - is not sufficient to be justified. Paul is not even talking about "good works" here in 3:21.

The big error is to read "works" or "law" as denoting "good works". It can be shown that this is not what Paul means here and elsewhere in Romans and his other writings. Paul uses the term law to refer to the "Torah" - the Law of Moses. And "works" denotes the practices of Torah, particularly those which mark the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile. Context will show this, every time.

drew
Nov 8th 2008, 03:47 PM
I do not see how this is possible. Throughout Romans, Paul uses the term "Law" to refer to the Torah - the law of Moses. The Torah is not the same thing as "good works" although it does include good works. But when Paul refers to "works" in Romans, he almost always does so in a manner that makes it clear that he is referring to those practices of the Torah that mark the Jew as distinct from the Gentile. These include such things as circumcision, Sabbath, and kosher food laws.

The reference to "law" late in Romans 3 demonstrates this. Here is the relevant text:

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

The fair and proper way to resolve this is not to say "is it possible that Paul want us to understand that "law" = "good works". Of course its possible - but it make Paul into a confused and misleading writer. The better approach is to ask which of the following, each possible, makes better sense in context:

1. Law means good works;
2. Law means Torah and specifically those aspects of Torah that mark Jew from Gentile.

And there can be no doubt, explanation 2 works far batter. Why? Because explanation makes sense of verse 29. If view 2 is correct, then Paul can be seen as saying - people are not saved by the ethnic specificities of Torah and therefore we conclude that God is the God of Jews and Gentiles.

If view 1 is correct, then the statement of verse 29 seems entirely irrelevant and a complete change of direction. If Paul is really saying that we are not justified by "good works", how does this feed into a statement about how both Jew and Gentile benefit? After all, earlier in the chapter, Paul has just shown that Jew and Gentile are in the exact same fallen state! This incongruity - the obvious irrelevance of the Jew - Gentile question to a denial of justification by "good works" - should be a red flag that something is amiss in the exegesis.


Nope.

Paul IMMEDIATELY uses Law in context of Romans 2 IMMEDIATELY following the description of "good works" that you are camping on:

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.


Now, you would have us believe that Paul has just completely left his thought and turned to Jewish dietary/ceremonial Laws but it is extremely clear that in context he has not left his thoughts.

When Paul is speaking here of Law he is still in context of his thoughts and clearly speaking about the "good works" that he has just mentioned.

That is one glaring reason the "shopper" should be cautious of Drew's kool aid :).
The problem with your response here is that it simply does not engage my argument. My argument was that what Paul says in Romans 3:29 proves that he must be talking about the Jewish Law - the Torah in the preceding verses:

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

As argued, and not yet challenged, it would make no sense for Paul to mean "good works" when he refers to "law" in these verses - He means Torah instead.

Now looking at what you post from chapter 2. In verse 12, Paul is obviously referring to the Torah and this alone undermines your argument. How could Paul possibly intend the reader to understand "law" here as "good works"? If you are right, we have Paul making the nonsensical statement:

12All who sin apart from good work will also perish apart from good works, and all who sin under good works will be judged by the good works.

This section is a little tricky and I will return later to finish the argument. But we do know that Paul cannot intend us to read "law" as "good works" here in verse 12. As later verses in Romans 2 show, Paul is still concerned with the Jew - Gentile divide. And this is a divide that has nothing to do with good works - Jew and Gentile are equally fallen - and has everything to do with Torah.

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 04:03 PM
This does not solve the problem. In Romans 2, Paul says each person receives in accordance with what they have done. Your explanation simply denies this - you say that some people do not receive according to what they have done but according to something else - Christ's atoning blood.

Drew,

It seems you are forgetting at the Judgment we do not stand before the throne of God on our own merits. Why? Because we have already been judged, and are now in Christ. In the Judgment we are on His right, while the goats are on the left (Mt 25:33). God is not the God of the dead, but the living (Mt 22:32). It is the "dead" who are judged for the things done according to their works (Rev 20:12). When Scripture says "we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ" (2Co 5:10), everyone appears there, including His elect, but only the dead are judged for the things done in the body. When we (believers) stand in the Judgment, we have already received our glorified spiritual bodies at His coming (1Co 15). So we will not be judged for things done in our flesh. So you see Toolman is correct, we are judged according to Christ's atoning blood...if we are covered by His blood, all of our sins have been forgiven, so we need not fear being judged according to what we have done in the flesh, because we are already judged in Christ, and now we receive our eternal reward.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 8th 2008, 04:32 PM
Drew,

It seems you are forgetting at the Judgment we do not stand before the throne of God on our own merits. Why? Because we have already been judged, and are now in Christ.
No. Paul means what he says in Romans 2. And I agree that we do not stand on "our merits". We stand on the works that the Holy Spirit has produced in our lives. But Paul is clear in Romans 2 - it is the content of lives as lived that will determine our destiny. And he says precisely the same thing here in 2 Cor 5:10:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

And this does not, repeat does not, force me into the position of claiming that these works are "our own". They are the works of the Holy Spirit.

How can your statment be correct, that we "have already been judged". Paul believes something else - that the judgement is in the future (even though we know the outcome in advance).


It is the "dead" who are judged for the things done according to their works (Rev 20:12). When Scripture says "we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ" (2Co 5:10), everyone appears there, including His elect, but only the dead are judged for the things done in the body.
In all candor, how can you possibly say this?

Paul is quite clear from context that the "elect" will indeed be judged by works done in the body:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

What does Paul say in verse 10? He says we all must appear. Fine. And does he say, with Roger, that there are some who are not judged for things done in the body? No. He says "each one may receive...".

How can Paul possibly say that "all will appear and each one will receive in accordance with things done in the body" and intend us to understand that some of the "all that will appear" are excused from the judgement about things done in the body?

Roger has Paul saying "all will appear, and each one of a subset of the all, will receive.....?" No competent person would write that way.

Besides, verses 1 to 9 are all about things the elect (to use Roger's term) will get:

- a building from God with which we will be clothed;
- mortality swallowed up by life;
- the fulfillment of the down-payment of the Spirit;
- a promise to be home with the Lord

If Roger is right, Paul describes all these things that the elect and the elect only get, and then expects us to understand that, in verse 10 Paul suddenly, and without notice, is talking about things that people other than the elect will get.

Again, no competent writer would do such a thing - give a glowing account of wonderful things to be received by one group - the elect - and then make a summary statement about different things that a different group will get.

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 04:37 PM
Oh, did I make you uncomfortable with the thought that God may have not chosen all your children and/or grandchildren to salvation? I guess that's something you'd rather not think about? Why would you not want to concern yourself with that? I didn't bring that up because of emotionalism. It is a way to get you to see the error in your doctrine. If you put your own doctrine in terms of your own family I thought maybe that could help you see a weakness in it.

Eric,

I'm afraid you have misread me. I am not the least uncomfortable speaking about God saving our family members and friends. To be uncomfortable would imply that I don't trust that God will accomplish whatsoever He purposes.

Of course I desire that all those whom I love in this world would be saved, however I realize that God does not always cater to my desires. I find myself asking, "shall I accept the good from God, and not the bad"? No, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, but still, "blessed be the name of the Lord." I am content knowing that God is Sovereign, and nothing is beyond His notice, and that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. I also know that all things are for His glory.

So I will, as I have already stated, cling with great comfort and assurance that God's promise of salvation is unto me and my children. Therefore, I will do all that I can to teach, train, and discipline my family members, and if it is God's will to save them, then I rejoice with great celebration that God has been faithful to His promise. If, after training, and discipline some of my family members never possess saving faith, I won't give up, and I will continue to cry out to God in prayer for their souls, but I will also accept the will of God in saving whosoever He will.

"Would I be just fine if God does not choose some of my family for salvation?" Salvation is of the Lord! God will have mercy and compassion on whosoever He will. What would you have me do? Shall I pretend that all my family need do is work real hard to muster up saving faith? Or perhaps you would have me tell them they need only make a profession of faith, repent and believe and if they really really mean it with all their hearts then they are saved? Or maybe I should tell them God loves them SOOOOOO much, and He has a wonderful plan for their lives, all they need do is turn to Him and accept Him? Or perhaps I should tell them salvation is only an offer and if you reach out and accept His free offer of salvation, then you will be saved?

I could never tell those whom I love unconditionally such lies. How could I possibly know if their profession is geniune, or that God's saving love is extended to them? I will continue to tell them the truth, that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and that through hearing the Word it is God Who opens our ears to hear, changes our hearts, and enables us to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. Of course this means that I will diligently see to it that they are under the hearing of the Word, for it is the power unto salvation to all who believe. I will encourage them to read, study, meditate, and memorize Scripture, and the Lord willing, I will pray that one day my beloved family members too will profess a saving faith that will endure till the Coming of Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 05:07 PM
Eric,

I'm afraid you have misread me. I am not the least uncomfortable speaking about God saving our family members and friends. To be uncomfortable would imply that I don't trust that God will accomplish whatsoever He purposes.

Of course I desire that all those whom I love in this world would be saved, however I realize that God does not always cater to my desires. I find myself asking, "shall I accept the good from God, and not the bad"? No, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, but still, "blessed be the name of the Lord." I am content knowing that God is Sovereign, and nothing is beyond His notice, and that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. I also know that all things are for His glory.

So I will, as I have already stated, cling with great comfort and assurance that God's promise of salvation is unto me and my children. Therefore, I will do all that I can to teach, train, and discipline my family members, and if it is God's will to save them, then I rejoice with great celebration that God has been faithful to His promise. If, after training, and discipline some of my family members never possess saving faith, I won't give up, and I will continue to cry out to God in prayer for their souls, but I will also accept the will of God in saving whosoever He will.

"Would I be just fine if God does not choose some of my family for salvation?" Salvation is of the Lord! God will have mercy and compassion on whosoever He will. What would you have me do? Shall I pretend that all my family need do is work real hard to muster up saving faith? Or perhaps you would have me tell them they need only make a profession of faith, repent and believe and if they really really mean it with all their hearts then they are saved? Or maybe I should tell them God loves them SOOOOOO much, and He has a wonderful plan for their lives, all they need do is turn to Him and accept Him? Or perhaps I should tell them salvation is only an offer and if you reach out and accept His free offer of salvation, then you will be saved?

I could never tell those whom I love unconditionally such lies. How could I possibly know if their profession is geniune, or that God's saving love is extended to them? I will continue to tell them the truth, that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and that through hearing the Word it is God Who opens our ears to hear, changes our hearts, and enables us to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. Of course this means that I will diligently see to it that they are under the hearing of the Word, for it is the power unto salvation to all who believe. I will encourage them to read, study, meditate, and memorize Scripture, and the Lord willing, I will pray that one day my beloved family members too will profess a saving faith and endure till the Coming of Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God saving grace is for the whole world, but as it is written; whosoever believeth means just that; whosoever believeth.

God loves us all but we must believe, if we do not believe it does not change his love for us and it will not change the out come if we do not believe.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 05:22 PM
Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God saving grace is for the whole world, but as it is written; whosoever believeth means just that; whosoever believeth.

God loves us all but we must believe, if we do not believe it does not change his love for us and it will not change the out come if we do not believe.

Firstfruits

So you believe even the devils have everlasting life? (James 2:19)

blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 05:39 PM
No. Paul means what he says in Romans 2. And I agree that we do not stand on "our merits". We stand on the works that the Holy Spirit has produced in our lives. But Paul is clear in Romans 2 - it is the content of lives as lived that will determine our destiny. And he says precisely the same thing here in 2 Cor 5:10:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

And this does not, repeat does not, force me into the position of claiming that these works are "our own". They are the works of the Holy Spirit.

Drew,

If they are the works of the Holy Spirit produced in us...will the Holy Spirit produce works in us that will lead to judgment and damnation?



How can your statment be correct, that we "have already been judged". Paul believes something else - that the judgement is in the future (even though we know the outcome in advance).

In all candor, how can you possibly say this?

Paul is quite clear from context that the "elect" will indeed be judged by works done in the body:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

What does Paul say in verse 10? He says we all must appear. Fine. And does he say, with Roger, that there are some who are not judged for things done in the body? No. He says "each one may receive...".

Yes, "each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body"...what body are believers wearing when we appear before the Judgment seat of Christ? We are changed into our glorified bodies when Christ come again. Therefore when we appear at the Judgment we are not wearing bodies of death, we are already clothed with immortality and incorruption. The Lord judges the dead, who are still clothed in resurrected mortal, corruptible bodies of death. They are judged, but we have already passed from death unto life because we have believed on Him and already have everlasting life in Him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



If Roger is right, Paul describes all these things that the elect and the elect only get, and then expects us to understand that, in verse 10 Paul suddenly, and without notice, is talking about things that people other than the elect will get.

Again, no competent writer would do such a thing - give a glowing account of wonderful things to be received by one group - the elect - and then make a summary statement about different things that a different group will get.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 05:51 PM
Drew,

Is Paul teaching us something different here than he teaches in 2Co 5? No, he is not. Each man will receive according to his deeds. To the man who dies in his sins, tribulation and anguish upon that evil man. But to the man who dies in Christ, glory, honor, peace because only the dead, who are still in their mortal, corruptible bodies of flesh will receive Judgment and condemnation. But since believers are clothed in incorruptible, immortal glorified bodies we receive eternal life in Christ.

Ro 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Ro 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Ro 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Ro 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 05:54 PM
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Drew,

If they are the works of the Holy Spirit produced in us...will the Holy Spirit produce works in us that will lead to judgment and damnation?



Yes, "each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body"...what body are believers wearing when we appear before the Judgment seat of Christ? We are changed into our glorified bodies when Christ come again. Therefore when we appear at the Judgment we are not wearing bodies of death, we are already clothed with immortality and incorruption. The Lord judges the dead, who are still clothed in resurrected mortal, corruptible bodies of death. They are judged, but we have already passed from death unto life because we have believed on Him and already have everlasting life in Him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Many Blessings,
RW

There are two sets of rewards that Jesus will bring with him, eternal life in Heaven or eternal damnation in Hell, so no matter what we shall be whatsoever we have chosen to do in our bodies that is what we shall be rewaded for.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 06:16 PM
There are two sets of rewards that Jesus will bring with him, eternal life in Heaven or eternal damnation in Hell, so no matter what we shall be whatsoever we have chosen to do in our bodies that is what we shall be rewaded for.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Greetings Firstfruits,

Yes, and as the context of Rev 22 shows us His reward of eternal life begins when we become saved. We don't do good deeds to be saved, but because we have been saved. Rev 22:12 assures us He is coming without delay, and so we are instructed in light of this good news:

Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Re 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Re 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Many blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 06:35 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

Yes, and as the context of Rev 22 shows us His reward of eternal life begins when we become saved. We don't do good deeds to be saved, but because we have been saved. Rev 22:12 assures us He is coming without delay, and so we are instructed in light of this good news:

Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Re 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Re 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Many blessings,
RW

According to the following our inhertiance is reserved for us in Heaven.

Col 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For the hope which is laid up For you in heaven, whereof ye heard beFore in the word of the truth of the gospel;

1 Pet 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Mt 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Lk 6:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Our eternal life is in Heaven, we are promised it when we are saved.

While we are in this life it is appointed for us to die.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 06:45 PM
According to the following our inhertiance is reserved for us in Heaven.

Col 1:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=51&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For the hope which is laid up For you in heaven, whereof ye heard beFore in the word of the truth of the gospel;

1 Pet 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Mt 5:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Lk 6:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Our eternal life is in Heaven, we are promised it when we are saved.

While we are in this life it is appointed for us to die.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Yes, what an awesome promise of eternal reward. I think it important to make a distinction between what we have received when we are born again, and what we receive in the fullness of time when we receive our glorified incorruptible, immortal bodies. We are already made partakers of the inheritance, and have already been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of His dear Son. Because we already have redemption through His blood.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We are assured of the promise of eternal inheritance in the fullness of time, not because we have not already become partakers, but because we are being kept by the power of God. It has not yet been fully manifested, and will be fully revealed in the fullness of time.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 06:54 PM
Yes, what an awesome promise of eternal reward. I think it important to make a distinction between what we have received when we are born again, and what we receive in the fullness of time when we receive our glorified incorruptible, immortal bodies. We are already made partakers of the inheritance, and have already been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of His dear Son. Because we already have redemption through His blood.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

We are assured of the promise of eternal inheritance in the fullness of time, not because we have not already become partakers, but because we are being kept by the power of God. It has not yet been fully manifested, and will be fully revealed in the fullness of time.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Many Blessings,
RW

Though we are joint heirs with Christ of the Kingdom of God, as with wills we do not receive the promises contained until the end.

Rom 8:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This is when Jesus returns with His rewards.

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 8th 2008, 09:19 PM
Though we are joint heirs with Christ of the Kingdom of God, as with wills we do not receive the promises contained until the end.

Rom 8:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This is when Jesus returns with His rewards.

Rev 11:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 22:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Firstfruits

Yep, when He returns we receive the full reward, because we have already been made alive, and already reign with Him...now we reign in time, then we will reign not only in fullness, but also forever!

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

1Pe 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Mr 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 8th 2008, 11:55 PM
Yep, when He returns we receive the full reward, because we have already been made alive, and already reign with Him...now we reign in time, then we will reign not only in fullness, but also forever!

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

1Pe 1:4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Mr 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Many Blessings,
RW

How can we lose those things which we have wrought?

2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 12:37 AM
How can we lose those things which we have wrought?

2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Greetings Firstfruits,

If we follow the doctrine of the deceiver after having heard the way of the truth, then we show ourselves to abide not in the doctrine of Christ, and have not God. If we do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, but instead follow damnable heresy, we partake of evil deeds.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Verse 8 is not speaking of those things we have wrought, but appealing to us to follow their teaching of the truth in Christ so that they will not lose any of those [church members] they have diligently worked for in delivering to them the doctrine of Christ. Whoever abides in the doctrine they have delivered to them, has both the Father and the Son.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 9th 2008, 11:26 AM
Greetings Firstfruits,

If we follow the doctrine of the deceiver after having heard the way of the truth, then we show ourselves to abide not in the doctrine of Christ, and have not God. If we do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, but instead follow damnable heresy, we partake of evil deeds.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Verse 8 is not speaking of those things we have wrought, but appealing to us to follow their teaching of the truth in Christ so that they will not lose any of those [church members] they have diligently worked for in delivering to them the doctrine of Christ. Whoever abides in the doctrine they have delivered to them, has both the Father and the Son.

Many Blessings,
RW

With regards to the following, what happens if we/whosoever then chooses not to abide in the truth?

1 Cor 7:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

1 Jn 2:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 Jn 2:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

1 Jn 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1 Jn 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 Jn 2:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 Jn 2:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 9th 2008, 03:42 PM
The word "boulomai" does not have the same meaning as the word "boulema". If you look at how the word "boulomai" is used elsewhere, you would see that it is more like the word "thelo" than the word "boulema" because it has to do with desire instead of a case of "this is what will happen and nothing can stop it". We know that not everyone repents, so it can't mean the same as "boulema" in 2 Peter 3:9. If it did, then everyone would repent. But not everyone does, obviously.

This is unbelievable to me. Do you, too, believe in universal salvation (i.e. everyone will eventually be saved)? Do you think people have a chance to be saved after they die? Scripture doesn't teach that. Just because God may have mercy upon all doesn't mean He does. That verse just means that men were given over to disobedience so that God could have mercy upon them. His having mercy on people and saving them is conditional upon them repenting and believing in Christ.

Those who refuse to ever repent and believe in Christ are condemned for eternity. He is longsuffering with people and gives them plenty of chances to repent and believe. In that sense, He is merciful to all people by giving them a chance for salvation. But He holds people responsible to make a decision to repent and believe in Christ or not. If they refuse then they will be held accountable on judgment day and will be cast into the everlasting lake of fire. They will not be cast into the lake of fire because they never had any ability to choose to repent and believe. Man is accountable and responsibile for his own decisions. They will be cast into the lake of fire for willingly choosing to reject Christ.

Hi,

Sorry for my late reply on this, I have had a busy week and have been contemplating my answer on this question. So I have decided to lay it all out. Yes, I believe that everyone will be eventually saved, and it will happen according to God's plan. Many people will not be saved in this life and will thus have to endure the lake of fire (it is not eternal) - but everyone will eventually be saved. If you do a thorough study on this you will see that it is scriptural, and it is completely in character with a God who is infinitely loving, righteous and just.

Now I realize this topic is taboo, so I will add that the above is JMHO. Do your own research - we cannot debate it here. If anyone wants to discuss it with me, I would be happy to via email. I am only laying this out here to further answer Eric's question and so he can understand my position with respect to the free will/predestination topic and whether we can save ourselves or whether God saves us.

On the topic at hand: Do we save ourselves by making the free will decision to accept Christ, or does God save us by enabling us to believe and accept Christ?

In my opinion, the scriptures are quite clear. God chooses who to save and when. He is the enabler. Everything is going according to his plan.

Back to Romans 9:19 and Romans 11:32

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

NO ONE has resisted his will (boulema - his plan). Everything is going according to God's plan. That includes who will be saved and when.

So the very fact that we are here in this forum discussing this is only be God's grace and plan. The very fact that we believe we are saved is only by God's grace.

If God hadn't shown his grace on us, we would have been unsaved and unbelieving just like the masses.

God uses each person (believer and unbeliever) for his purposes. His plan requires both. But he will be merciful:

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Look at the first part of this verse. God has set everyone up to be unbelievers! It is God who sets the unbeliever down that path. And then only by God removing their spiritual blindness, is someone able to believe.

NO ONE has resisted God's will. If its God's will for you to not believe, then that is what will happen. God's will is supreme.

I think people get hung up on the concept of making choices, and assume that means we have free will. I'm not denying we don't make choices. We make choices all day long. But making choices doesn't automatically mean we have free will. Computers make many millions of choices a second, and no claims that a computer has a free will. We make choices that are influenced by other factors. Cause and effect.

When someone makes a choice for Christ, it is because they have been influenced by God. God has enabled them (John 6:44). God has removed their spiritual blindness. God has given them their faith, and the amount of that faith (Romans 12:3). Its not because of their own magical free will. We cannot choose God unless God wills it, anymore than the leopard can change its spots (Jer 13:23).

Free will cannot exist if we believe that God's will is supreme. The belief in free will sets up this idea that our will is stronger than God's will. Clearly that cannot be.

Legoman

Firstfruits
Nov 9th 2008, 06:16 PM
Hi,

Sorry for my late reply on this, I have had a busy week and have been contemplating my answer on this question. So I have decided to lay it all out. Yes, I believe that everyone will be eventually saved, and it will happen according to God's plan. Many people will not be saved in this life and will thus have to endure the lake of fire (it is not eternal) - but everyone will eventually be saved. If you do a thorough study on this you will see that it is scriptural, and it is completely in character with a God who is infinitely loving, righteous and just.

Now I realize this topic is taboo, so I will add that the above is JMHO. Do your own research - we cannot debate it here. If anyone wants to discuss it with me, I would be happy to via email. I am only laying this out here to further answer Eric's question and so he can understand my position with respect to the free will/predestination topic and whether we can save ourselves or whether God saves us.

On the topic at hand: Do we save ourselves by making the free will decision to accept Christ, or does God save us by enabling us to believe and accept Christ?

In my opinion, the scriptures are quite clear. God chooses who to save and when. He is the enabler. Everything is going according to his plan.

Back to Romans 9:19 and Romans 11:32

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

NO ONE has resisted his will (boulema - his plan). Everything is going according to God's plan. That includes who will be saved and when.

So the very fact that we are here in this forum discussing this is only be God's grace and plan. The very fact that we believe we are saved is only by God's grace.

If God hadn't shown his grace on us, we would have been unsaved and unbelieving just like the masses.

God uses each person (believer and unbeliever) for his purposes. His plan requires both. But he will be merciful:

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Look at the first part of this verse. God has set everyone up to be unbelievers! It is God who sets the unbeliever down that path. And then only by God removing their spiritual blindness, is someone able to believe.

NO ONE has resisted God's will. If its God's will for you to not believe, then that is what will happen. God's will is supreme.

I think people get hung up on the concept of making choices, and assume that means we have free will. I'm not denying we don't make choices. We make choices all day long. But making choices doesn't automatically mean we have free will. Computers make many millions of choices a second, and no claims that a computer has a free will. We make choices that are influenced by other factors. Cause and effect.

When someone makes a choice for Christ, it is because they have been influenced by God. God has enabled them (John 6:44). God has removed their spiritual blindness. God has given them their faith, and the amount of that faith (Romans 12:3). Its not because of their own magical free will. We cannot choose God unless God wills it, anymore than the leopard can change its spots (Jer 13:23).

Free will cannot exist if we believe that God's will is supreme. The belief in free will sets up this idea that our will is stronger than God's will. Clearly that cannot be.

Legoman

With regards to the following, can you explain how eternal will become temporal?

Mt 25:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mk 3:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Heb 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jud 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Eternal means never ending, this is Gods will.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 9th 2008, 08:28 PM
Why are we given so many choices if we cannot make our own choices?

Mt 10:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mt 10:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 10:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Lk 14:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Lk 14:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Jn 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Rom 9:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Jn 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

2 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=63&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

To do or not to do, that is the question? Not quite Shakespear but whosoever chooses to respond feel free to do so. Unless you are compeled. :hmm: :bounce:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 09:32 PM
No. Paul means what he says in Romans 2. And I agree that we do not stand on "our merits". We stand on the works that the Holy Spirit has produced in our lives. But Paul is clear in Romans 2 - it is the content of lives as lived that will determine our destiny. And he says precisely the same thing here in 2 Cor 5:10:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

And this does not, repeat does not, force me into the position of claiming that these works are "our own". They are the works of the Holy Spirit.

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Drew,

If they are the works of the Holy Spirit produced in us...will the Holy Spirit produce works in us that will lead to judgment and damnation?
No. And I am curious what your point is here. Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - only those who exhibit good works will get life. And Romans 8 tells us how - through the Spirit.

Those with the Spirit will exhibit the works.

Those without will not.

It needs to be pointed out that those who argue "well, in Romans 3, Paul tells us that what he said in Romans 2 cannot be achieved" have Paul contradicting himself.

If Paul had simply said in Romans 2 that those who do "good works" will get life, then it is at least plausible that he would later demonstrate that zero people will qualify.

But Paul says that each person will receive in accordance with what they have done. This statement definitively closes the door on the possibility that any person will receive in accordance with something other than what they have done.

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 10:03 PM
How can your statment be correct, that we "have already been judged". Paul believes something else - that the judgement is in the future (even though we know the outcome in advance).

In all candor, how can you possibly say this?

Paul is quite clear from context that the "elect" will indeed be judged by works done in the body:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

What does Paul say in verse 10? He says we all must appear. Fine. And does he say, with Roger, that there are some who are not judged for things done in the body? No. He says "each one may receive...".


Yes, "each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body"...what body are believers wearing when we appear before the Judgment seat of Christ? We are changed into our glorified bodies when Christ come again. Therefore when we appear at the Judgment we are not wearing bodies of death, we are already clothed with immortality and incorruption. The Lord judges the dead, who are still clothed in resurrected mortal, corruptible bodies of death. They are judged, but we have already passed from death unto life because we have believed on Him and already have everlasting life in Him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
This is an interesting way to respond to my post. My post argues that Paul precedes his statement about "people receiving in accordance with deeds done in the body" with a long list of the very things that only the elect will get. RogerW will have you believe that Paul compiles this list of things that only the elect will get and then, in verse 10, makes a statement about other things that people other than the elect will receive.

Look that the first nine verses. Repeatedly Paul makes statements about a "we" who get certain things. And the things this "we" gets are all things that only the redeemed will get. This is simply beyond argument - Paul is talking about the things that the redeemed will get.

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Paul's long list is about things that the redeemed will get and the lost will not.

And yet Roger is arguing that when Paul then says this:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


....he is talking about other things that the lost will get. This is simply not plausible.

Roger, can you please explain to us how it makes sense for Paul to give a glorious list of all the things that the elect and the elect only receive, and then cap it with a statement about "getting in accordance with what was done in the body", all the while intending the reader to understand that he is now (in verse 10) talking both about an entirely different group and an entirely different set of things that group will receive.

Or, please explain how you make sense of this, which your position requires us to believe:

In verse 1 to 9, Paul uses the word "we" or "us" is used seventeen times, each time obviously only in reference to the elect, and then in verse 10, he uses the word "we" to refer to a an entirely different group?

Please defend your claim that "Therefore when we appear at the Judgment we are not wearing bodies of death, we are already clothed with immortality and incorruption"

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 10:09 PM
If Roger is right, Paul describes all these things that the elect and the elect only get, and then expects us to understand that, in verse 10 Paul suddenly, and without notice, is talking about things that people other than the elect will get.

Again, no competent writer would do such a thing - give a glowing account of wonderful things to be received by one group - the elect - and then make a summary statement about different things that a different group will get.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
The text Roger quotes speaks about happens to the believer at the moment he accepts and believes the gospel. The 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 text is about coming judgement. The fact that we are a "new creation" does not mean that we get excused from the coming judgement.

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 10:13 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

Yes, and as the context of Rev 22 shows us His reward of eternal life begins when we become saved.
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)]

Paul means what he says - the judgement unto salvation lies in the future.

And, again, from 2 Corinthians 5:

Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Please explain how you reconcile these texts with your stated position that the reward of eternal life begins when we are saved. Paul clearly states otherwise - that the reward will conferred at a future date.

And how about this from Daniel 12:

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt

The prophet is clear - there are those who lie in the dust of death who, only at a future time, are given eternal life.

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 10:34 PM
Drew,

Is Paul teaching us something different here than he teaches in 2Co 5? No, he is not. Each man will receive according to his deeds. To the man who dies in his sins, tribulation and anguish upon that evil man. But to the man who dies in Christ, glory, honor, peace because only the dead, who are still in their mortal, corruptible bodies of flesh will receive Judgment and condemnation.
Simply untrue. Does Paul discriminate between the "dead who are still mortal" and the rest of humanity in the following?:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

You are clearly inserting an unstated qualification here. Paul says each person will be judged, not a sub-set of all people. If you go around inserting such qualifications, then any point can be substantiated. Paul gives us absoutely zero reason to qualify the "each person" statement. He means what he says - each person will receive in accordance with what they have done.

Paul says the same thing in 2 Cor 5:1-10, where the first 9 verses make it indisputable that the elect are included in the "we" when Paul concludes with verse 10:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

You have stated that the elect will not be judged at the judgement seat and "receive what is due him for the things done while in the body". And yet in verses 1 to 9, Paul has just listed all the things the elect will get.

No remotely coherent author would do such a things - compile a list of things that the elect will get and then say this:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

...and expect the reader to understand that the "we" does not include the elect.

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 10:55 PM
This is an interesting way to respond to my post. My post argues that Paul precedes his statement about "people receiving in accordance with deeds done in the body" with a long list of the very things that only the elect will get. RogerW will have you believe that Paul compiles this list of things that only the elect will get and then, in verse 10, makes a statement about other things that people other than the elect will receive.

Look that the first nine verses. Repeatedly Paul makes statements about a "we" who get certain things. And the things this "we" gets are all things that only the redeemed will get. This is simply beyond argument - Paul is talking about the things that the redeemed will get.

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Paul's long list is about things that the redeemed will get and the lost will not.

And yet Roger is arguing that when Paul then says this:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

....he is talking about other things that the lost will get. This is simply not plausible.

Roger, can you please explain to us how it makes sense for Paul to give a glorious list of all the things that the elect and the elect only receive, and then cap it with a statement about "getting in accordance with what was done in the body", all the while intending the reader to understand that he is now (in verse 10) talking both about an entirely different group and an entirely different set of things that group will receive.

Or, please explain how you make sense of this, which your position requires us to believe:

In verse 1 to 9, Paul uses the word "we" or "us" is used seventeen times, each time obviously only in reference to the elect, and then in verse 10, he uses the word "we" to refer to a an entirely different group?

Please defend your claim that "Therefore when we appear at the Judgment we are not wearing bodies of death, we are already clothed with immortality and incorruption"

Drew,

Appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ does not mean that the elect believers are being judged for bad they did in their physical bodies. We appear in His presence WITH Him, because we have already been changed, and we have already put on immortality, and incorruption when we were bodily resurrected at His Second Coming. So when believers appear at the Judgment Seat it is to receive our eternal reward for good.

Paul doesn't speak in a vacuum. I mean did you miss 1Co 15 where Paul speaks about our resurrected bodies at the coming of Christ? Paul means exactly what he says, ALL (every human) will appear before the judgment seat of Christ "that EVERYONE may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad."

Those in Christ will be judged "good" because they have already been changed into spiritual bodies, but the rest will be judged "bad" because they have died in unbelief and therefore have not been changed from their natural corrupt bodies of flesh to incorruptible spiritual bodies. Christ will declare to those wearing incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies, "well done good and faithful servant...enter into the joy of the Lord."

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in
victory.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In conclusion it makes zero sense to argue that the elect will be judged according to what they have done while in bodies of corruption and death, since the elect will have already been changed from corruption to incorruption before the Judgment. We can rest in complete assurance of Paul's words:

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 10:57 PM
The text Roger quotes speaks about happens to the believer at the moment he accepts and believes the gospel. The 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 text is about coming judgement. The fact that we are a "new creation" does not mean that we get excused from the coming judgement.

But because we have been made a new creature in Christ, we can rest assured that at the Judgment we will appear with Christ clothed in immortality and incorruption.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 11:02 PM
Appearing before the Judgment Seat of Christ does not mean that the elect believers are being judged for bad they did in their physical bodies. We appear in His presence WITH Him, because we have already been changed, and we have already put on immortality, and incorruption when we were bodily resurrected at His Second Coming. So when believers appear at the Judgment Seat it is to receive our eternal reward for good.
Let me ask you a direct question. Are the redeemed included in the "we" in the following?

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

Yoe seem to say "yes" in the above. And obviously I agree. But what does Paul say about the "we"? He says

"each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body"

Now what do you say about that subset of "we" that includes us?


Those in Christ will be judged "good" because they have already been changed into spiritual bodies, ...
This is not what Paul says. Paul says that "we" receive according to the things we have done in the body.

You, on the other hand, give an entirely different criterion for being judged "good" - that we have already received a spiritual body. This is simply not reconcilable with the text.

The "we" obviously includes the elect (verses 1 through 9).

The "we" receive in accordance with the things "done in the body".

How do you justify providing an entirely different criterion altogether?

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 11:16 PM
Let me ask you a direct question. Are the redeemed included in the "we" in the following?

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

Yoe seem to say "yes" in the above. And obviously I agree. But what does Paul say about the "we"? He says

"each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body"

Now what do you say about that subset of "we" that includes us?

Perhaps another passage will aid you in understanding that at the Judgment seat of Christ His elect will NOT be judged for things done in their physical bodies of death. WE ALL OF US...every human will appear before His judgment seat, but only the goats, those on His left, unbelievers will be judged for the bad things they have done in their corrupt, mortal bodies of death. But notice, to the sheep, elect, believers, Christ says, "inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." No judgment for those on His right!!! Why? Because they are already clothed in immortality and incorruption.

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 11:17 PM
But because we have been made a new creature in Christ, we can rest assured that at the Judgment we will appear with Christ clothed in immortality and incorruption.
Where in the scriptures is it taught that we will appear at the judgement already clothed in immortality and incorrption and thus be exempt from the judgement?

If you find such a text, then we all have a huge problem - because it makes this statement false:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

The fact that we are "new creatures" in no way logically necessitates that we will appear in immortality and incorruption.

And what do say about this teaching of Jesus? Please pay attention to verse 35. Is Jesus not explaining the basis or grounds for the reward described in verse 34?:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'"

drew
Nov 9th 2008, 11:28 PM
But notice, to the sheep, elect, believers, Christ says, "inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." No judgment for those on His right!!! Why? Because they are already clothed in immortality and incorruption.

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mt 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
The text shows that the ones on the right are indeed judged - this is indisputable. You left off the next statement which makes it clear that the ones on the right get into the kingdom because of their treatment of the poor!

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me

This should settle the matter.

In this text, and in Romans 2, and in 2 Corinthians 5, the plain sense is clear - the "elect" are judged according to their good works. Now, you attempt to avoid the plain meaning of these texts by inserting an unsubstantiated claim that we appear at this judgement already "immortal", and that this somehow exempts us from the judgement.

You need to justify this idea. And you have the challenging task of explaining how an educated and sophisticated writer like Paul, let alone Jesus, would say that the "redeemed" are given eternal life according to "good works", while believing that this is not so.

Let's look at what the application of your argument to just one of these texts, 2 Cor 5:10. Paul writes this:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

Now what has Paul just written prior to writing this? He has written this:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

You have said this about the status of the redeemed at this judgement:


Because they are already clothed in immortality and incorruption.
Does Paul think we (the redeemed) are alreay clothed when we appear at this judgement? Obviously not. Verse 1 to 8 are an anticipation of the very thing you are talking about - the receipt of immortal bodies. You seem to expect the reader to buy the proposition that Paul describes something we will get in the future - immortal bodies - and then say this:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from itFor we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

....and think that Paul expects the reader to think that "we" are not rewarded in accordance with what they do "in the body".

Paul's wording here rules that out. He say we need to please him while in the body....for we will receive according to what we do in the body.

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 11:32 PM
Where in the scriptures is it taught that we will appear at the judgement already clothed in immortality and incorrption and thus be exempt from the judgement?

I've already shown you the Scriptures. We receive our incorruptible bodies at His Second Coming in glory (1Co 15), and the Judgment of the dead (remember God is not the God of the dead, but the living) we read about in Rev 20. The Judgment is at the end of the thousand years after the devil is cast into the lake of fire, or on the last day, also called the second death. Clearly since we received our glorified, incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies at His coming, and the Judgment is on the last day...logically we would be clothed in incorruption and immortality at the Judgment.



If you find such a text, then we all have a huge problem - because it makes this statement false:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

There isn't anything wrong with the text, and it is not a false statement. The problem lies in your interpretation of the text...with that there is a big problem.



The fact that we are "new creatures" in no way logically necessitates that we will appear in immortality and incorruption.

How many times are we going to become new creatures in Christ? Scripture tells us once...therefore logic necessitates that we appear at the Judgment in immortality and incorruption.



And what do say about this teaching of Jesus? Please pay attention to verse 35. Is Jesus not explaining the basis or grounds for the reward described in verse 34?:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'"

Are you assuming that the kingdom was prepared only for those sheep who did all these specific good deeds, or would you agree that this passage is simply telling us that sheep, unlike the goats do true deeds in the name of the Lord, flowing from hearts that have been made alive in Him?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 9th 2008, 11:35 PM
The text shows that the ones on the right are indeed judged - this is indisputable. You left off the next statement which makes it clear that the ones on the right get into the kingdom because of their treatment of the poor!

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me

This should settle the matter.

No Drew, actually what should have settled the matter was showing you the Scriptures that prove we appear at the Judgment clothed in immortality, and incorruption. Sadly, you simply refuse to accept the truth because then you would have to admit that the New Perspective on Paul with its works righteousness is complete heresy.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 12:51 AM
No Drew, actually what should have settled the matter was showing you the Scriptures that prove we appear at the Judgment clothed in immortality, and incorruption.
The argument that RogerW is advancing here requires that when we read this:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

...that the redeemed, in fact, do not receive in accordance with things done in the body we have prior to being given immortal bodies:


Perhaps another passage will aid you in understanding that at the Judgment seat of Christ His elect will NOT be judged for things done in their physical bodies of death.
This position cannot be reconciled with verse 9, which states

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For.....

Is Paul talking about a group that does not include the redeemed? Of course not, he is most certainly talking about the redeemed. It is the redeemed that want to please God. And besides, in verses 1 to 8, Paul has been clearly talking about the redeemed.

Here is why Roger's argument cannot be correct: It makes no sense at all for Paul to talk about the goal of the redeemed being to please God, while at home in the body, and then say "for we are to receive in accordance with what was done in the body", unless, of course, the scope of that judgement includes what we have done while in the body.

Let's be clear. Paul instructs the redeemed to please God while in the body (verse 9). Paul then says:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

If Roger is correct, the redeemed are not going to be judged for the things done in the body, even though the redeemed have just been instructed to do this very thing - please God while we are at home in the body.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 01:05 AM
No Drew, actually what should have settled the matter was showing you the Scriptures that prove we appear at the Judgment clothed in immortality, and incorruption. Sadly, you simply refuse to accept the truth because then you would have to admit that the New Perspective on Paul with its works righteousness is complete heresy.
Jesus means what he says - here it is again:

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

What is Jesus saying in vers 34? That some will get eternal life. On what basis? For......and the stuff about caring for the poor.

The plain sense is "You get eternal life because you did certain things".

Taking Jesus as His plain words is entirely consistent with taking Paul at his plain words in Romans 2 and 1 Corinthians 5:10.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 01:07 AM
How many times are we going to become new creatures in Christ? Scripture tells us once...therefore logic necessitates that we appear at the Judgment in immortality and incorruption.
This is simply not correct. The fact that we become new creatures in Christ does not logically necessitate that we appear at a judgement in immortality and incorruption.

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 02:16 AM
The argument that RogerW is advancing here requires that when we read this:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

...that the redeemed, in fact, do not receive in accordance with things done in the body we have prior to being given immortal bodies:


This position cannot be reconciled with verse 9, which states

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For.....

Is Paul talking about a group that does not include the redeemed? Of course not, he is most certainly talking about the redeemed. It is the redeemed that want to please God. And besides, in verses 1 to 8, Paul has been clearly talking about the redeemed.

Lets look at the fuller context Drew.

When we are in our bodies of flesh we are not with the Lord in heaven. But, since we walk by faith and not by sight, we have confidence that when we are absent from our physical bodies we are present with the Lord. When will we be absent from our physical bodies? When we physically die and go to be with the Lord in spirit, and when we receive our glorified, incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies at His return in glory.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Clearly Paul shows us that when we physically die we go to be with the Lord. But this cannot be bodily because our bodies go into the grave and since flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, our bodies must be changed from corruption to incorruption, and mortal to immortality. This happens when Christ come again.

Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Of course we labor, not to be saved or to remain saved, but because we are saved, and we long to be accepted of Him.

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Why do you suppose the text reads "that every one may receive the things done in his body"..."good or bad"?

Good - agathos a primary word; "good" (in any sense, often as noun):--benefit, good(-s, things), well.

Mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Lu 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The good man appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, in faith, and clothed with incorruption, and immortality cannot be judged bad. There is no bad in them. Once more it is only the dead who are judged for the bad things they have done in the body.

In every letter written to the churches, in every epistle written by the Apostles, and also in the gospels, believers are always encouraged to do those things that bring glory to God. Since we are still wearing our mortal bodies of death, we are always being tempted to sin, therefore the admonitions, encouragments and even warnings are to be taken very seriously. We cannot lose our salvation, and we are not saved by our works, but we can still fall to temptation, and bring consequences from our sins upon ourselves. And we can become so entangled by the world, our flesh and the devil that we cease to be of any use in building His kingdom. But we need not worry about being judged for things done in our bodies of sinful flesh, because Christ has promised that He has saved to the uttermost, and He ever lives to make intercession for His elect.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Drew, we are not saved by grace plus our own righteous deeds.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 02:27 AM
Jesus means what he says - here it is again:

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

What is Jesus saying in vers 34? That some will get eternal life. On what basis? For......and the stuff about caring for the poor.

The plain sense is "You get eternal life because you did certain things".

Taking Jesus as His plain words is entirely consistent with taking Paul at his plain words in Romans 2 and 1 Corinthians 5:10.

Here's the thing Drew, you are advocating a works righteousness. You keep telling us we must do good works to be saved. But the text in Mt 25 tells a different story. The righteous haven't been trying to earn their salvation or keep their salvation through good works. They aren't even aware they have done any works at all. Christ has to tell them, "oh yes you did, when you did it unto the least you did in unto Me."

Mt 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mt 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mt 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The fact is that if you are born again, good works will follow. Not to be saved, or to remain saved...for salvation is of the Lord ALONE...Grace Alone...Through Faith Alone....to the glory of God Alone...So righteous work will be manifest when we are born again, because we have been saved...not to be saved or remain saved...because salvation is eternally secure.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 03:55 AM
Lets look at the fuller context Drew....
I agree with all the stuff about how when we die we go to be with the Lord and how we will receive resurrection bodies in the future. None of that changes the internal logic of the 2 Corinthian 5 text. Paul writes this:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

The argument here seems rock solid:

1. Paul exhorts the redeemed to please God while in the body;

2. Paul says that there is a "we" who will be judged according to what is done "in the body";

3. Therefore, Paul must intend us to understand that the redeemed will be judged accorrding to things done in the body. No competent writer would exhort the redeemed to please God while we are "in the body" and then immediately make a "because" or "for" statement of the form "for we will receive according to what is done in the body", without intending the reader to think that the redeemed, the very ones who are exhorted to live well in the body, will come under this judgement.

So if what you are saying is indeed correct - that we will appear at this judgement and not be judged according to things done in the body - then Paul is mistaken here in 2 Corinthians 5:9-10 - the structure of what he says here requires us to understand that the redeemed will indeed be judged according to what we do "in the body".


Of course we labor, not to be saved or to remain saved, but because we are saved, and we long to be accepted of Him.
This is not what quite Paul says in Romans and elsewhere. People who hold the view you hold see salvation as a single event in time. Paul's actual language does not sustain that view. We are "saved" when we place faith in Jesus in the present, only in the sense that we know in advance that we will indeed pass the Romans 2 / 2 Cor 5 judgement.

But, again, Paul means what he says in both Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5. There will be a coming judgement at which all people will be judged and will receive in accordance with what they have done. So we are not ultimately saved until that future time. But because we are given the Spirit, we know that the judgement will be favourable:

5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come

The problem with your model of salvation is that you have to come up with this "we will already be immortal at the judgement" so that the plain meaning of both Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5 is over-ruled - so even though Paul plainly says all men are judged according to what he have done, he does not really mean it.

Well, I am confident you will not be able to make a scriptural case that we will indeed present ourselves to that judgement in an immortal. The reason I am confident - I trust that there is no way Paul would write Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5 as he did if what you say is true.


Drew, we are not saved by grace plus our own righteous deeds.
You know better than to mis-represent me like this - I have given you a pass on this before, but you know full well that I do not hold this position.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 03:59 AM
On the matter of 1 Corinthians 15, there is nothing in that chapter that requires us to believe that we come to the "good works" judgement of Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5 already clothed in resurrection bodies.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 04:07 AM
Here's the thing Drew, you are advocating a works righteousness.
If its good enough for Paul, its good enough for me:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous



You keep telling us we must do good works to be saved. But the text in Mt 25 tells a different story. The righteous haven't been trying to earn their salvation or keep their salvation through good works. They aren't even aware they have done any works at all. Christ has to tell them, "oh yes you did, when you did it unto the least you did in unto Me."
This argument does not work. The fact that the redeemed were not aware of the basis for their ultimate salvation does not change the fact that Jesus declares that their works are, in fact, the basis of that salvation:

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me

It is really quite simple. In verse 34, a reward is given (it is eternal life). In verse 35, the "for", functioning like a "because" as it so often does for Paul, tells us the basis or grounds for

The fact that your position requires us to overturn the plain meaning of Romans 2, 2 Cor 5, and this text from Matthew 25, should cause red flags to be raised. My position takes all of these texts at face value.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 04:19 AM
If Romans 2, 2 Cor 5, and Matthew 25 were not enough, we also have this from Romans 14:

10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28277a)] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Is this a different judgement than the Romans 2 judgement at which Paul declares eternal life will be given in accordance with works?

If so, we have two judgements at which Christ presides. That already seems implausible.

Are the redeemed not part of this judgement described in Romans 14. Again, clearly the answer is "yes".

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 04:38 AM
If Romans 2, 2 Cor 5, and Matthew 25 were not enough, we also have this from Romans 14:

10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28277a)] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Is this a different judgement than the Romans 2 judgement at which Paul declares eternal life will be given in accordance with works?

If so, we have two judgements at which Christ presides. That already seems implausible.

Are the redeemed not part of this judgement described in Romans 14. Again, clearly the answer is "yes".

What's the outcome for those found to be in Christ, being clothed with incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies they received when Christ returned in glory? They will be pronounced good and faithful servants, because they will be seen in Christ as holy, righteous, altogether good. Like everyone of these judgment seat texts tell us...we will ALL be at the Judgment. Those who are standing there in their mortal, corruptible bodies of death in unbelief will be Judged and cast into the lake of fire, the second death. Those clothed in incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies will enter into the joy of the Lord, for they will be holy, righteous and good, through Christ's work.

If I must stand before God to give account of what I have done in my mortal body of death, then God have mercy on my soul, because I will certainly taste the second death in the lake of fire. Praise be to God Almighty that I have complete confidence and assurance that the accounting I will give before God will be based on Christ's perfect righteous work and not my own.

Ro 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 04:41 AM
Drew,

The elect will indeed receive a full reward for righteous works...not ours, but Christ's righteous works.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 04:48 AM
What's the outcome for those found to be in Christ, being clothed with incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies they received when Christ returned in glory?
I do not believe you have made this case yet. I know that you believe that the receipt of incorruptible bodies precedes the judgement, but you need to give a Scriptural defence for this position. 1 Cor 15 does not make this case as it does not set the receipt of incorruptible bodies in relation to the matter of judgement. So what is your case here?


If I must stand before God to give account of what I have done in my mortal body of death, then God have mercy on my soul, because I will certainly taste the second death in the lake of fire.
Not at all. Romans 8 is the answer to the question "how can we possibly pass the Romans 2 judgement?":

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. ....

6The mind of sinful man[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=8&version=31#fen-NIV-28108e)] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace...

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you

Romans 8 is Paul's explanation as to how we can pass the Romans 2 judgement.

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 04:57 AM
You know better than to mis-represent me like this - I have given you a pass on this before, but you know full well that I do not hold this position.

Frankly Drew, I really don't know your position. In one post you advocate the elect will be judged based on what we do in our bodies. Now to me this implies a works righteousness, which you seem to present, but then say this is not your position. I know you try to distant yourself from the notion we must do good works to be saved, by saying we only do the good works because the Holy Spirit is enabling us. What kind of logic is that? If we are doing good works through the power of the Spirit, are we not already saved; i.e. born again by the Spirit? You seem to want it both ways. You want judgment for the elect, based on good works we do through the power of the Holy Spirit, but then you say the judgment is eternal life. I don't find anywhere in Scripture, when speaking of the Judgment as something good. Judgment at the Judgment seat of Christ means the everlasting lake of fire, not everlasting life.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 04:59 AM
I do not believe you have made this case yet. I know that you believe that the receipt of incorruptible bodies precedes the judgement, but you need to give a Scriptural defence for this position. 1 Cor 15 does not make this case as it does not set the receipt of incorruptible bodies in relation to the matter of judgement. So what is your case here?

Drew, I've grown weary of posting the same texts again and again. I have fully supported this position. Perhaps you simply don't want to see!
Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 05:02 AM
Drew,

The elect will indeed receive a full reward for righteous works...not ours, but Christ's righteous works.

Many Blessings,
RW
Paul never teaches the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer. Instead of this :

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

....you have revised Paul to say:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done, except that the elect will be rewarded according to what Christ has done.

And this is simply not what Paul says. Again, your model requires all sorts of texts to be radically reworked:

1. You claim that plain statements about all people being judged according to what they have done in the earthly body does not apply to the elect, since they show up at the judgement in immortal bodies. Well, then why does Paul not mention this in 2 cor 5, or in Romans 2? And why does Paul exhort the elect to "please God in their earthly body" if that is not going to be how they are judged?

2. You claim that, despite the plain wording about how each person's works will be judged, that it is really something else that is the determining factor - the righteousness of Christ. Well, if that is so, why did Paul say what he says in Romans 2 about how each person will be judged according the works they have done?

Now, to avoid being misrepresented (again), I want to go on record as follows:

1. The works that are manifested in each believer's life are "their" works only in the sense that they were the "vehicle" by which the works were done. However, the real agent responsible for the works is the Holy Spirit who, as Paul says in Romans 8 - can give life to our mortal bodies.

2. Jesus work on the cross is the only way it becomes possible for us to be given the Spirit and then manifest the good works.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 05:04 AM
Drew, I've grown weary of posting the same texts again and again. I have fully supported this position. Perhaps you simply don't want to see!
Many Blessings,
RW
Simply give me a post number and I will then show how you have not made your case. How can I be so confident? Because I believe in the Scriptures and if you are right, then Paul is saying all sorts of things in places like Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5 that are incorrect.

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 05:05 AM
Drew,

Perhaps speaking of Judgment for those in unbelief, and reward for His elect at the Judgment...rather than saying the elect are judged by what they have done in their bodies of death.

Just a thought!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 05:10 AM
Simply give me a post number and I will then show how you have not made your case. How can I be so confident? Because I believe in the Scriptures and if you are right, then Paul is saying all sorts of things in places like Romans 2 and 2 Cor 5 that are incorrect.

Drew,

Again the problem is not with Paul or the texts, but how you are interpreting them. You can find the posts as easily as I can.

Many blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 05:13 AM
Frankly Drew, I really don't know your position. In one post you advocate the elect will be judged based on what we do in our bodies. Now to me this implies a works righteousness, which you seem to present, but then say this is not your position. I know you try to distant yourself from the notion we must do good works to be saved, by saying we only do the good works because the Holy Spirit is enabling us. What kind of logic is that?
It is Spirit logic. I think I have been clear enough to understand:

1. We receive the Spririt by faith and faith alone;

2. The Spirit works in us to produce the good works we need to pass the Romans 2 judgement - as Paul says in Romans 8, the Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies;

3. We then have assurance of passing the Romans 2 / 2 Cor 5 / Romans 14 / Matthew 25 judgement.


If we are doing good works through the power of the Spirit, are we not already saved; i.e. born again by the Spirit?
It seems you are unwilling to let go of this notion that salvation is a "one-time" event. It would be nice and simple if it were, but if we follow Paul we know he refers to it sometimes as a "thing that happens when we believe" and at others - like Romans 2 - as a thing that happens in the future. We have to loosen our grip on the model of salvation that we bring to the texts and, instead, let Paul tell us what he means.

So it is simply untrue to say that "we are saved when we believe and that's it". Paul's writings do not allow us to do that. He talks about a future judgement at which some will be saved from wrath.


Judgment at the Judgment seat of Christ means the everlasting lake of fire, not everlasting life.
Not if, as Paul clearly says, all of us appear at that judgement.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 05:16 AM
Perhaps speaking of Judgment for those in unbelief, and reward for His elect at the Judgment...rather than saying the elect are judged by what they have done in their bodies of death.

Just a thought!
Again, this will not jive with 2 Cor 5:9-10 where Paul exhorts the redeemed to please God in "their bodies of death" and then says "we" be rewarded for what we do in those same bodies.

Do you not see how this forces us to conclude the elect will indeed be judged according to things done "in the body"? Why would Paul exhort us to please God while "in the body" and then immediately tell us "we" will be judged by what we do in the body, if what we do in the body will not be judged?

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 05:27 AM
Drew,

Again the problem is not with Paul or the texts, but how you are interpreting them. You can find the posts as easily as I can.

Many blessings,
RW
Roger, I have looked and seen nothing but claims that are unsupported.

You posted this text:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is nothing here that requires us to see that this event precedes any kind of judgement. I have not made this assertion yet, but I will now. I believe that this transformation is the judgement - it is only those who meet the Romans 2 "good works" criteria who will be "transformed in this way.

Same with this text:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in
victory.

This can be read as asserting that those who "persist in doing good" will be raised incorruptible.

So its not like "we are given immortal bodies and we then go the judgement which has effect on us" - a strange position to hold given the wording of 2 Cor 5 which clearly implies we will all be judged - it is rather that the raising / transforming / putting on of immortality constitutes the judgement.

This way, we can take Romans 2 and 2 Cor as they read.

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 05:34 AM
Tell me something Drew, if the elect must stand before God at the Judgment to give account for all our deeds done in the body, why did Christ die on the cross? Was His death, and His blood not sufficient to satisfy the wrath of God and atone for all my sins?

Good night!
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 11:15 AM
What are the works/deeds being spoken of in these scriptures?

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

What are the works that accompany salvation?

Are the following not enough?

Mt 10:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mt 10:32 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 10:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Lk 14:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Lk 14:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Jn 12:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Rom 9:33 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 Jn 2:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

2 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=63&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 03:06 PM
Tell me something Drew, if the elect must stand before God at the Judgment to give account for all our deeds done in the body, why did Christ die on the cross? Was His death, and His blood not sufficient to satisfy the wrath of God and atone for all my sins?
Your question presumes the very position you support and is therefore effectively circular. You appear to believe that the only criteria for entry to heaven is that you show up with "all your sins under the blood". Well, that is probably indeed one of the criteria - in a mysterious way, Jesus' death does indeed "cancel" or atone for all our sins.

But that is not the whole story. And we know this from Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5, if not elsewhere - we are judged and given eternal life in accordance with the good works that our lives manifest.

If one adopts a model that the only criteria for entry into heaven is simply that Jesus "paid a debt" on the cross, then one is bound to be confused by Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5 which clearly state that "good works" are needed.

The proper response to this is to change your model, not make Paul tell falsehoods.

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 03:32 PM
Eric,

I'm afraid you have misread me. I am not the least uncomfortable speaking about God saving our family members and friends. To be uncomfortable would imply that I don't trust that God will accomplish whatsoever He purposes.

Of course I desire that all those whom I love in this world would be saved, however I realize that God does not always cater to my desires. I find myself asking, "shall I accept the good from God, and not the bad"? No, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away, but still, "blessed be the name of the Lord." I am content knowing that God is Sovereign, and nothing is beyond His notice, and that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. I also know that all things are for His glory.

So I will, as I have already stated, cling with great comfort and assurance that God's promise of salvation is unto me and my children.Where does it say that your salvation ensures your children's salvation? It doesn't. All people are individually responsible to repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ.


Therefore, I will do all that I can to teach, train, and discipline my family membersWhy? Your doctrine says that nothing we do makes any difference because it's all up to God and He already predetermined everything long ago.


and if it is God's will to save them, then I rejoice with great celebration that God has been faithful to His promise. If, after training, and discipline some of my family members never possess saving faith, I won't give up, and I will continue to cry out to God in prayer for their souls, but I will also accept the will of God in saving whosoever He will.This contradicts your own doctrine, Roger. Your doctrine says that nothing we do affects salvation. Why would you waste your time praying when supposedly everything is already predetermined? If God has not chosen them then no amount of prayer could make a difference according to your very own doctrine. That is part of the reason why I believe your doctrine does great damage to the cause of evangelism. You can say that you pray for your loved ones but your doctrine doesn't encourage people to do so because it says nothing we do makes any difference.


"Would I be just fine if God does not choose some of my family for salvation?" Salvation is of the Lord! God will have mercy and compassion on whosoever He will. What would you have me do? Shall I pretend that all my family need do is work real hard to muster up saving faith?It doesn't take hard work to muster up saving faith. It does take a decision to turn from one's sins, put complete trust and faith in Christ for salvation and surrender one's will to God. There is a spiritual war that goes on over people's souls that you do not even recognize. Each person is responsible to decide who they want to serve, follow and give their lives to.


Or perhaps you would have me tell them they need only make a profession of faith, repent and believe and if they really really mean it with all their hearts then they are saved?That is exactly what you should tell them because that is what scripture teaches.

Romans 10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Or maybe I should tell them God loves them SOOOOOO much, and He has a wonderful plan for their lives, all they need do is turn to Him and accept Him? Or perhaps I should tell them salvation is only an offer and if you reach out and accept His free offer of salvation, then you will be saved? That is part of what you should tell them but we should never neglect to mention the need for repentance. Scripture teaches that salvation is indeed an offer that must be willingly accepted. It is accepted through repentance and faith in Christ.

John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


I could never tell those whom I love unconditionally such lies.Lies? Your doctrine is one big lie. You will not even tell your own loved ones what the scriptures I quoted and others teach. That is pathetic. If some random person came up to you and asked you what they needed to do to be saved you would say "Nothing!" instead of following Paul and Silas' example and telling them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then explaining what that means.


How could I possibly know if their profession is geniune, or that God's saving love is extended to them?God's saving love is extended to all people. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2)


I will continue to tell them the truth, that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and that through hearing the Word it is God Who opens our ears to hear, changes our hearts, and enables us to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. Of course this means that I will diligently see to it that they are under the hearing of the Word, for it is the power unto salvation to all who believe. I will encourage them to read, study, meditate, and memorize Scripture, and the Lord willing, I will pray that one day my beloved family members too will profess a saving faith that will endure till the Coming of Christ. You can pray all you want but according to your doctrine it doesn't make one bit of difference because everything is already supposedly predetermined.

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 04:07 PM
Your question presumes the very position you support and is therefore effectively circular. You appear to believe that the only criteria for entry to heaven is that you show up with "all your sins under the blood". Well, that is probably indeed one of the criteria - in a mysterious way, Jesus' death does indeed "cancel" or atone for all our sins.

But that is not the whole story. And we know this from Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5, if not elsewhere - we are judged and given eternal life in accordance with the good works that our lives manifest.

If one adopts a model that the only criteria for entry into heaven is simply that Jesus "paid a debt" on the cross, then one is bound to be confused by Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5 which clearly state that "good works" are needed.

The proper response to this is to change your model, not make Paul tell falsehoods.As long as we understand that the good works that we do are done through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, then this issue becomes much less confusing.

When we initially repent and put our faith and trust in Christ we are then saved and indwelt by and born again of the Holy Spirit. After that happens, we are led by the Spirit to do the good works that God has for us. We are still required to have faith and willingly cooperate with the Spirit, but it is the Spirit that does the good works and deserves all credit for them. The reason we will be judged by our works is that our works/fruit reflect our faith and where our allegiance truly lies. Everyone is known by their fruit.

But the bottom line is that what people are ultimately rewarded (with immortal bodies and everlasting life) or condemned (to eternity in the lake of fire) for is whether or not they believed in Christ with all their hearts (as opposed to just head knowledge).

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 04:16 PM
As long as we understand that the good works that we do are done through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, then this issue becomes much less confusing.
Although I would not expect you to have read through the long to and fro between "Roger and Me" (isn't there a movie or book by that title?), I have made it clear that, indeed, the "good works" that we do are solely attributable to the action of the Holy Spirit working in us.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 04:17 PM
With the understanding that we are all under sin, did you not have to change your life as a sinner to a life of righteousness?

No


We are not born righteous, so how could you not have changed?

Firstfruits

I died.

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 04:19 PM
As long as we understand that the good works that we do are done through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, then this issue becomes much less confusing.

When we initially repent and put our faith and trust in Christ we are then saved and indwelt by and born again of the Holy Spirit. After that happens, we are led by the Spirit to do the good works that God has for us. We are still required to have faith and willingly cooperate with the Spirit, but it is the Spirit that does the good works and deserves all credit for them. The reason we will be judged by our works is that our works/fruit reflect our faith and where our allegiance truly lies. Everyone is known by their fruit.

But the bottom line is that what people are ultimately rewarded (with immortal bodies and everlasting life) or condemned (to eternity in the lake of fire) for is whether or not they believed in Christ with all their hearts (as opposed to just head knowledge).

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I posted this earlier, what are the works that accompany salvation?


What are the works/deeds being spoken of in these scriptures?

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

What are the works that accompany salvation?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 04:36 PM
[/i]

This does not solve the problem. In Romans 2, Paul says each person receives in accordance with what they have done. Your explanation simply denies this - you say that some people do not receive according to what they have done but according to something else - Christ's atoning blood.

And God did punish 'all' my sin with death, for the wages of sin is death.

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins.

If we are still yet to receive according to all what we have done, then no man can be saved, for make no mistake, all sin has to be punished with death.

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 04:41 PM
And God did punish 'all' my sin with death, for the wages of sin is death.

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins.

If we are still yet to receive according to all what we have done, then no man can be saved, for make no mistake, all sin has to be punished with death.

Christians still die don't they, as well as sinners?

Firstfruits

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 04:41 PM
If we are still yet to receive according to all what we have done, then no man can be saved, for make no mistake, all sin has to be punished with death.
But Paul's own words show that we will receive in accordance with what "we" have done:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

What is your view about what Paul says here? You appear, repeat appear, to be disagreeing with him.

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 05:00 PM
Although I would not expect you to have read through the long to and fro between "Roger and Me" (isn't there a movie or book by that title?), I have made it clear that, indeed, the "good works" that we do are solely attributable to the action of the Holy Spirit working in us.No, I did read through it all and I knew your position but I think you need to clarify that every time you mention someone being justified or judged by good works so that someone who didn't know your position would not be confused.

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 05:08 PM
I posted this earlier, what are the works that accompany salvation?


What are the works/deeds being spoken of in these scriptures?

Heb 6:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

What are the works that accompany salvation?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsCan you be more specific? Are you asking what are the works required for salvation or are you asking what are the works that give the evidence that we have been saved?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 07:05 PM
With regards to the following, can you explain how eternal will become temporal?

Mt 25:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mk 3:29 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Heb 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jud 1:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=65&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Eternal means never ending, this is Gods will.

Firstfruits

"Eternal means never ending"

Does it?

Well not always as can be shown below.

[aionios]
Eternal times; World began; Times of the ages; Long ages;

Eternal
<1,,165,aion>
"an age," is translated "eternal" in Eph_3:11, lit., "(purpose) of the ages" (marg.). See AGE.

<2,,166,aionios>
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom_16:25; 2Ti_1:9; Tit_1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom_16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

Rom 16:25

(ALT) (14:24) Now to the One able to establish you* according to my Gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to [the] revelation of [the] secret [or, mystery] in eternal times having been kept silent,

(ASV) Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,

(Darby) Now to him that is able to establish you, according to my glad tidings and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages,

(EMTV) (14:24) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began,

(ESV) Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

(KJV+) NowG1161 to him that is of powerG1410 to stablishG4741 youG5209 accordingG2596 to myG3450 gospel,G2098 andG2532 theG3588 preachingG2782 of JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 accordingG2596 to the revelationG602 of the mystery,G3466 which was kept secretG4601 since the world began,G5550 G166

(KJVR) Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

(LITV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the proclaiming of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal times,

(MKJV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, having been unvoiced during eternal times;

(NASB) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

(RV) Now to him that is able to stablish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,

(YLT) And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 07:09 PM
It is Spirit logic. I think I have been clear enough to understand:

1. We receive the Spririt by faith and faith alone;

2. The Spirit works in us to produce the good works we need to pass the Romans 2 judgement - as Paul says in Romans 8, the Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies;

Drew,

Please listen very carefully to what I am saying. You say we do good works for which we will be judged, and that the only reason we are doing those good works, for which we will be judged, is because the Spirit is giving life to our mortal bodies, thereby enabling us to do the good works He assigns we will do. If the good works, for which we will be judged are being done through the power of the Holy Spirit enabling us, then wouldn't that mean it is the Holy Spirit Who should be judged for failing to enable us to do what He has ordained we shall do?

There is no logic in reasoning that says, we are judged by works we do in the body through the power of the Holy Spirit. Either the Holy Spirit enables us to do good works, or He is a failure and He must be judged. Why would we be judged for the good works, or lack thereof, that the Holy Spirit is responsible for accomplishing through us? And since the power to do the good works comes through the Holy Spirit, isn't He the One Who shall receive the reward for good works He has enabled through us?

Your works righteousness becomes more and more convoluted by the minute.



3. We then have assurance of passing the Romans 2 / 2 Cor 5 / Romans 14 / Matthew 25 judgement.

Yes, we have assurance through the power of God, not our own good works. Had He not given me life and enabled me, I could do NOTHING! Isn't it wonderful we receive reward for His work, and our own deeds done in our mortal bodies of death are forgiven in Him.



It seems you are unwilling to let go of this notion that salvation is a "one-time" event. It would be nice and simple if it were, but if we follow Paul we know he refers to it sometimes as a "thing that happens when we believe" and at others - like Romans 2 - as a thing that happens in the future. We have to loosen our grip on the model of salvation that we bring to the texts and, instead, let Paul tell us what he means.

So it is simply untrue to say that "we are saved when we believe and that's it". Paul's writings do not allow us to do that. He talks about a future judgement at which some will be saved from wrath.

Not if, as Paul clearly says, all of us appear at that judgement.

Drew, have you no understanding of sanctification? We are saved when we are born again, that happens when we "hear", receive faith to believe, repent of our sins, and turn to Christ for life. Did we become perfect at that moment, or do we need to grow in faith and holiness of life?

Scripture shows us we are saved when we are born again of the Spirit, and since we have been saved, we will continue to be saved as we look to Him, and grow in faith, and Christian maturity, and finally since we have been saved, and are being continually saved, we have assurance that we will be finally completely saved when we are redeemed from our corrupt, mortal bodies of death, and are clothed with incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies at the last trump, when Christ comes again in glory.

It is in these new bodies that we will appear with Christ, at His right hand, before the Judgment Throne to receive our eternal reward. There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ! That means no judgment for His elect believers, only reward.

Many blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 07:21 PM
Please listen very carefully to what I am saying. You say we do good works for which we will be judged, and that the only reason we are doing those good works, for which we will be judged, is because the Spirit is giving life to our mortal bodies, thereby enabling us to do the good works He assigns we will do.
So far, so good.


If the good works, for which we will be judged are being done through the power of the Holy Spirit enabling us, then wouldn't that mean it is the Holy Spirit Who should be judged for failing to enable us to do what He has ordained we shall do?
Who says that the Holy Spirit will fail? Paul seems quite confident that the Spirit will not fail:

6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

If a person places faith in Jesus, the deal is sealed - the Spirit will produce the works that will justify us at the Romans 2 / 2 Cor 5 judgement.


There is no logic in reasoning that says, we are judged by works we do in the body through the power of the Holy Spirit. Either the Holy Spirit enables us to do good works, or He is a failure and He must be judged.
I have no idea where you get this idea that the Holy Spirit will fail to produce good works.


Why would we be judged for the good works, or lack thereof, that the Holy Spirit is responsible for accomplishing through us? And since the power to do the good works comes through the Holy Spirit, isn't He the One Who shall receive the reward for good works He has enabled through us?
I am not sure how you can invoke this argument when, if I am not mistaken, you believe that our judgement consists in God looking at us and seeing "the imputed righteousness of Jesus". I could pose a similar question to you - why isn't Jesus the one getting the reward? We haven't done anything.


Your works righteousness becomes more and more convoluted by the minute.
No. I am only following Paul and taking him seriously.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 07:31 PM
Drew, have you no understanding of sanctification? We are saved when we are born again, that happens when we "hear", receive faith to believe, repent of our sins, and turn to Christ for life.
This is not what Paul believes. You ask me if I have no understanding of santification. I will ask you: Why do modify what Paul writes when he so clearly says that our ultimate salvation is a future event:

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done


Scripture shows us we are saved when we are born again of the Spirit, and since we have been saved, we will continue to be saved as we look to Him, and grow in faith, and Christian maturity, and finally since we have been saved, and are being continually saved, we have assurance that we will be finally completely saved when we are redeemed from our corrupt, mortal bodies of death, and are clothed with incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies at the last trump, when Christ comes again in glory.
I do not follow your logic here. On the one hand you say we "have been saved", and then in the next sentence you assert that "we will be finally completely saved".

I am only following Paul whose basic reasoning is this: when we place faith in Jesus in the present, we know that the outcome of the future judgement - the judgement at which we will be "saved" from the wrath - will be favourable. But Paul means what he says - we will be judged in the future.


It is in these new bodies that we will appear with Christ, at His right hand, before the Judgment Throne to receive our eternal reward. There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ! That means no judgment for His elect believers, only reward.
Not possible. 2 Corinthians 5:9-10, just by itself, shows that we will be judged according to what we do "in the body". Now I happen to believe that we have assurance that the outcome will be favourable. Here is the text.

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

1. In verse 9 Paul exhorts believers to please God while in the body;

2. Paul says that there is a "we" who will be judged according to what is done "in the body";

3. Therefore, Paul must intend us to understand that the redeemed will be judged according to things done in the body. No competent writer would exhort believers to please God while we are "in the body" and then immediately make a "because" or "for" statement of the form "for we will receive according to what is done in the body", without intending the reader to think that the redeemed, the very ones who are exhorted to live well in the body, will come under this judgement.

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 07:59 PM
Who says that the Holy Spirit will fail? Paul seems quite confident that the Spirit will not fail:

6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

If a person places faith in Jesus, the deal is sealed - the Spirit will produce the works that will justify us at the Romans 2 / 2 Cor 5 judgement.

Drew!!!!!!!!!!! If there is no failure because we are doing good works through the Spirit enabling us because we have been sealed....what are we judged for? We are confident the deal is sealed, and we will do good works, through the power of God, therefore we receive REWARD NOT JUDGMENT! Those who are judged are those whose deeds done in the body are bad. And the judgment is the second death in the lake of fire.



I am not sure how you can invoke this argument when, if I am not mistaken, you believe that our judgement consists in God looking at us and seeing "the imputed righteousness of Jesus". I could pose a similar question to you - why isn't Jesus the one getting the reward? We haven't done anything.

Because what Jesus did, was for me, you, and every elect believer. Christ received the wrath of God that believers deserve, so that we can stand with Him at the Judgment vindicated through Him. I understand well that I am already forgiven, and I stand in Christ knowing that nothing I have done, or have not done in my body of death accounts for anything. The good that I do, I do by the power of God, and the evil that I do, I do through my body of death. I am not rewarded eternal life because I do good, since it is only by the grace of God that I do any good at all. And I am not judged because I do evil, since I am standing in Christ, Who has already been judged for me.



No. I am only following Paul and taking him seriously.

Drew, I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I don't believe you are following the doctrine of Paul at all. You are following the doctrine of NT Wright and his New Perspective on Paul. You view all of Scripture through what you have learned from Wright. Therefore your doctrine is skewed to reflect his doctrine, and I say this in humility and with conviction and concern for you...NT Wright's New Perspective is heresy, and does great harm to the church in the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 08:07 PM
Can you be more specific? Are you asking what are the works required for salvation or are you asking what are the works that give the evidence that we have been saved?

After we have received salvation what are the works that we should do to accompany or as you have said show evidence of someone that is saved?

Firstfruits

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 08:12 PM
[/color]Drew!!!!!!!!!!! If there is no failure because we are doing good works through the Spirit enabling us because we have been sealed....what are we judged for?
Effectively, I suppose that we are being "judged" for our decision to accept Christ. We know from Romans 2 and other texts that we will be judged by the good works that our lives exhibit - that is a stake in the ground that cannot be moved without contradicting Paul. The person who rejects Jesus is without hope - I suspect we agree on this. The person who accepts Jesus is then molded by the Spirit into the person who will pass the Romans 2 judgement.


Those who are judged are those whose deeds done in the body are bad.
Not possible. 2 Cor 5:9-10 is written in such a way that rules out this view. Paul would not exhort believers to "please God in the body" and then, in the very next verse, make a statement about "receiving in accordance with what is done in the body" unless, of course, these same believers will come under that very judgement.

That would be like the doctor telling Fred to exercize, and then telling him "we all will reap the consequence of our exercizing behaviour" and not intending Fred to understand that this applies to him.

I do not see how you can possibly counterargue this point. You have repeatedly ignored it, and I think we all know why - it is an absolute slam-dunk against the view that believers are not subjected to the verse 10 judgement.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 08:19 PM
You are following the doctrine of NT Wright and his New Perspective on Paul. You view all of Scripture through what you have learned from Wright. Therefore your doctrine is skewed to reflect his doctrine,
This is blatantly incorrect reasoning. I will now prove this:

1. It is possible that Wright's position reflects faithful exegesis;

2. If Wright is indeed correct to God's intended meaning, then those who are influenced by Him have come to the correct understanding of God's intended meaning.

And I will also state the obvious. The very same (obviously incorrect) argument could be levied against the Calvinist:

Mr. Calvinist, I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I don't believe you are following the doctrine of Paul at all. You are following the doctrine of John Calvin and his Reformed views. You view all of Scripture through what you have learned from John Calvin. Therefore your doctrine is skewed to reflect his doctrine, and I say this in humility and with conviction and concern for you...Calvin's view are heresy, and does great harm to the church in the world

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 08:19 PM
Where in the scriptures is it taught that we will appear at the judgement already clothed in immortality and incorrption and thus be exempt from the judgement?

If you find such a text, then we all have a huge problem - because it makes this statement false:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

The fact that we are "new creatures" in no way logically necessitates that we will appear in immortality and incorruption.

And what do say about this teaching of Jesus? Please pay attention to verse 35. Is Jesus not explaining the basis or grounds for the reward described in verse 34?:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'"

This a time of judgment, when all nations are gathered to Him.

We will all appear before Christ for judgment, but not the saved and the unsaved together, for how will we judge the world?

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

We the quick [living] shall be judged at His appearing.

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

But the dead shall be judged at His Kingdom.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 08:23 PM
Effectively, I suppose that we are being "judged" for our decision to accept Christ. We know from Romans 2 and other texts that we will be judged by the good works that our lives exhibit - that is a stake in the ground that cannot be moved without contradicting Paul. The person who rejects Jesus is without hope - I suspect we agree on this. The person who accepts Jesus is then molded by the Spirit into the person who will pass the Romans 2 judgement.

So, are you agreeing that those appearing before the Judgment seat are unbelievers as well as believers?

No, I do not agree that salvation is an offer to be accepted or rejected. Christ repeatedly tells us "I GIVE them eternal life." Where do we ever find Christ saying, "I OFFER them eternal life, and if they will accept it, they will be saved"?

At the Judgment those in Christ will receive reward and the rest judgment and condemnation.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 08:25 PM
This is blatantly incorrect reasoning. I will now prove this:

1. It is possible that Wright's position reflects faithful exegesis;

2. If Wright is indeed correct to God's intended meaning, then those who are influenced by Him have come to the correct understanding of God's intended meaning.

And I will also state the obvious. The very same (obviously incorrect) argument could be levied against the Calvinist:

Mr. Calvinist, I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I don't believe you are following the doctrine of Paul at all. You are following the doctrine of John Calvin and his Reformed views. You view all of Scripture through what you have learned from John Calvin. Therefore your doctrine is skewed to reflect his doctrine, and I say this in humility and with conviction and concern for you...Calvin's view are heresy, and does great harm to the church in the world

Boy, it's a good thing I follow the Bible and not the doctrine of Calvin or any other man.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 08:30 PM
This a time of judgment, when all nations are gathered to Him.

We will all appear before Christ for judgment, but not the saved and the unsaved together, for how will we judge the world?

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

We the quick [living] shall be judged at His appearing.

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

But the dead shall be judged at His Kingdom.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Thanks Partaker,

This is a good point. At the same time of His appearing, this judgment and receiving our immortal, incorruptible spiritual bodies takes place. Of course, this is how we can be resurrected to be clothed in immortality and incorruption. Judgment at His appearing and "the" Judgment before His throne.

Many Blessings,
RW

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 08:35 PM
So, are you agreeing that those appearing before the Judgment seat are unbelievers as well as believers?
Absolutely. Paul means what he says - all people will be judged.


No, I do not agree that salvation is an offer to be accepted or rejected. Christ repeatedly tells us "I GIVE them eternal life." Where do we ever find Christ saying, "I OFFER them eternal life, and if they will accept it, they will be saved"?
Well, obviously this gets into the "Calvinist - Arminian" issue. If I agreed with you on that, then my position would be inconsistent. But I do not agree with you on the matter of such things as "pre-destination"


At the Judgment those in Christ will receive reward and the rest judgment and condemnation.
I agree. And like Paul says in 2 Cor 5:10, the judgement will be based on deeds done in the body.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 08:36 PM
Boy, it's a good thing I follow the Bible and not the doctrine of Calvin or any other man.
Same here. One, or both of us is wrong.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 08:41 PM
Roger, why do you not offer an explanation as to why Paul would exhort believers to please God in the body and then speak of a judgement based on what is done in the body if believers are not subject to that same judgement:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

You continue to ignore this argument. Why is that?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 08:49 PM
Your question presumes the very position you support and is therefore effectively circular. You appear to believe that the only criteria for entry to heaven is that you show up with "all your sins under the blood". Well, that is probably indeed one of the criteria - in a mysterious way, Jesus' death does indeed "cancel" or atone for all our sins.

Your heresy speaks of the finished work of Christ, as not being a complete and perfect work. You speak O man, that you need to add your own works, to make His work perfect.

Your heresy is:
Jesus Christ's works = imperfect.
Jesus Christ's works + your own feeble works = Perfect works


But that is not the whole story. And we know this from Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5, if not elsewhere - we are judged and given eternal life in accordance with the good works that our lives manifest.

If one adopts a model that the only criteria for entry into heaven is simply that Jesus "paid a debt" on the cross, then one is bound to be confused by Romans 2 and 2 Corinthians 5 which clearly state that "good works" are needed.

The proper response to this is to change your model, not make Paul tell falsehoods.

And who many good works do we need?
When will we have done enough good works?

What will be of the bad works?

You sound more and more like a foolish Galatian.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 08:56 PM
Your heresy speaks of the finished work of Christ, as not being a complete and perfect work. You speak O man, that you need to add your own works, to make His work perfect.

Your heresy is:
Jesus Christ's works = imperfect.
Jesus Christ's works + your own feeble works = Perfect works
Let the words of Paul speak. If I am a heretic, then I am in good company:

"God will give to each person according to what he has done

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Please answer this question that has hitherto gone unanswered:

What is your explanation as to why Paul would exhort believers to please God in the body and then speak of a judgement based on what is done in the body if believers are not subject to that same judgement:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


You sound more and more like a foolish Galatian.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This is without relevant content and is simply poisoning the well.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 09:14 PM
But Paul's own words show that we will receive in accordance with what "we" have done:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

What is your view about what Paul says here? You appear, repeat appear, to be disagreeing with him.

I do not disagree with him one jot.

Our works as saved Christians, are the works we build on the sure unmovable and firm foundation, which no man can lay.

Those works which we build on, ought to be done of Gold, Silver and Precious Stones, but many are the work of wood, hay and stubble.

Gold = God's Glory
Silver = Purchase by Christ
Precious Stones = by the Holy Spirit.

These works when judged will not burn up, but the works of man (flesh) wood, hay and stubble these will burn up, though we ourselves will pass through the flames.
Why will we ourselves pass through the flames?
Because our Salvation is by God and God alone (Gold, Silver and Precious Stones)

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 09:21 PM
I do not disagree with him one jot.
Paul says that we get eternal life according to things we have done. Do you agree with this?

This is not a statement that we get eternal life according to something other than what we have done.

And please answer the question that you both are still silent on:

What is your explanation as to why Paul would exhort believers to please God in the body and then speak of a judgement based on what is done in the body if believers are not subject to that same judgement:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

RogerW
Nov 10th 2008, 09:35 PM
Absolutely. Paul means what he says - all people will be judged.

Drew,

We continue to make the same points again and again. Boy, its a good thing I enjoy getting into discussions about the Word of God. Do you agree that when we ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that believers (sheep) are separated from goats (unbelievers)? If you agree, why would that be? Why are we all separated before we are judged?



Well, obviously this gets into the "Calvinist - Arminian" issue. If I agreed with you on that, then my position would be inconsistent. But I do not agree with you on the matter of such things as "pre-destination"

I'm feeling very engaged in discussing "works righteousness" at the moment. I believe when one begins to understand in one point of doctrine, what often follows is better understanding in every point of biblical doctrine. So perhaps when/if we come to agreement of salvation by our works of righteousness vs. salvation by Christ alone, through Scripture alone, by grace alone, through faith alone, to the glory of God alone...then we can engage in other doctrinal points.



I agree. And like Paul says in 2 Cor 5:10, the judgement will be based on deeds done in the body.

And I think you also agree that those who do good are judged worthy, and receive reward, and those who do bad are judged unworthy and receive condemnation.

Did you agree with Partakers reply regarding "at his coming"? When we are in Christ we are made bodily alive at His coming.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We are in the presence of the Lord at His coming. The same time we are made bodily alive.

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

When we abide in Him, we have confidence at His coming. How could we have confidence at His coming if we must be judged for things done in our bodies of death?

1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

His coming ushers in the Judgment, but believers do not come into condemnation, but everlasting life.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those who have done good are not judged, but are resurrected to life, and those who have done evil resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Nov 10th 2008, 09:37 PM
Paul says that we get eternal life according to things we have done. Do you agree with this?

This is not a statement that we get eternal life according to something other than what we have done.

Paul says no such thing


And please answer the question that you both are still silent on:

What is your explanation as to why Paul would exhort believers to please God in the body and then speak of a judgement based on what is done in the body if believers are not subject to that same judgement:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

It is judgment against the works we do in the Body.
Reward or Loss.
Gold, Silver and Precious Stones = Gain
Wood, Hay and Stubble = Loss

Nothing, zero, zilch to do with our salvation.

The parable of talents was about reward, not salvation.
Do you think that he who had five talents, and was then given another five talents, do you think he received ten salvations?

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 09:42 PM
After we have received salvation what are the works that we should do to accompany or as you have said show evidence of someone that is saved?

FirstfruitsToo many to list, but here's a good start since these are things that Jesus will specifically point out on judgment day.

Matt 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 09:42 PM
We continue to make the same points again and again. Boy, its a good thing I enjoy getting into discussions about the Word of God. Do you agree that when we ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that believers (sheep) are separated from goats (unbelievers)? If you agree, why would that be? Why are we all separated before we are judged?
Roger, I will not answer any more of your questions until you answer the question that has been repeatedly put to you:


What is your explanation as to why Paul would exhort believers to please God in the body and then speak of a judgement based on what is done in the body if believers are not subject to that same judgement:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
When you actually engage this question - not talk about other things - then I will answer your questions.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 09:47 PM
Paul says that we get eternal life according to things we have done. Do you agree with this?

This is not a statement that we get eternal life according to something other than what we have done.


Paul says no such thing
I am confused. There is not much difficult to understand in this declaration:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

When someone says that you will get something according to what you have done, that does not means that you will get that something according to something other than what you have done.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 09:59 PM
And please answer the question that you both are still silent on:

What is your explanation as to why Paul would exhort believers to please God in the body and then speak of a judgement based on what is done in the body if believers are not subject to that same judgement:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.



It is judgment against the works we do in the Body.
Reward or Loss.
Gold, Silver and Precious Stones = Gain
Wood, Hay and Stubble = Loss

Nothing, zero, zilch to do with our salvation.
If it has nothing to do with our salvationm, then what is Paul talking about here:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I suspect that you are going to say that Paul has changed topics by the time he gets to verse 10 and has left the issue of getting eternal life behind.

This is not really plausible:

In verse 1 to 5 he refleces on the eternal life that is to come for the believer.

Verses 6 to 8 are observations about how great it would be to get that gift of eternal life.

Verse 9 is then the transition that lead into 10 - we are instructed to please God. And then we get verse 10. And in verse 10, he talks about things we will get according to what we have done in the body.

Now you are arguing that "eternal life" is not part of what we get in accordance with verse 10. But verses 1 to 8 have been about nothing other than eternal life.

Paul would have to be the worst, I mean the worst, writer who ever lived to construct this entire sequence and not intend us to understand that, indeed, the eternal life he has been describing is part of the reward we get.

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 10:03 PM
Roger, I will not answer any more of your questions until you answer the question that has been repeatedly put to you:

[/color]
When you actually engage this question - not talk about other things - then I will answer your questions.Drew, I'm trying to understanding your reason for harping on this issue. Does it have to do with the idea of believers being given different levels of reward based on their works? We know we are not saved by our own works of righteousness done in our own power and I'm pretty sure you agree.

That we are judged by our works has to do with the fact that the works of believers will be seen as being fruitful in God's eyes because the works would have been done by the power of the Holy Spirit working through those who were saved as a result of believing in Christ. In the case of unbelievers they will have nothing to show for themselves but evil works because the works were done in their own power, which counts for nothing. This lack of having done any good works that were pleasing to God reflects that they did not have faith in Christ and therefore were never born of the Spirit and led to do good works by the power of the Spirit.

As I said before, everyone is ultimately judged based on whether or not they believed in Christ (John 3:18). So, whenever it speaks of people being judged by their works that has to be kept in mind.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 10:17 PM
Drew, I'm trying to understanding your reason for harping on this issue. Does it have to do with the idea of believers being given different levels of reward based on their works? We know we are not saved by our own works of righteousness done in our own power and I'm pretty sure you agree.
The reason I am harping on this issue is that the obvious answer to it - that is, of course, the believer falls under "works done in the body" judgement - undermines Roger's argument the believers are not subject to such a judgement. I do not see how it is possible to read 9 and 10 and not conclude that, indeed, the believer will be judged according to works done in the body.


That we are judged by our works has to do with the fact that the works of believers will be seen as being fruitful in God's eyes because the works would have been done by the power of the Holy Spirit working through those who were saved as a result of believing in Christ. In the case of unbelievers they will have nothing to show for themselves but evil works because the works were done in their own power, which counts for nothing. This lack of having done any good works that were pleasing to God reflects that they did not have faith in Christ and therefore were never born of the Spirit and led to do good works by the power of the Spirit.

As I said before, everyone is ultimately judged based on whether or not they believed in Christ (John 3:18). So, whenever it speaks of people being judged by their works that has to be kept in mind.
I agree with you to a point. Ultimately, the only reason that anyone can pass the Romans 2 judgement is faith. But, Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - it is the "good works" that will be examined, not the "faith". It is the "good works" that are the criteria for entry into heaven, even though we all agree that these works are the result of the action of the Holy Spirit, which is, of course, a gift of pure grace.

But when people manifestly deny what Paul so plainly says, I tend to come to his defence. He means what he says in Romans 2. And he means what he says in 2 Corinthians 5 - the "test" for "entry into heaven" are the good works that have been manifested in the life of the believer.

Perhaps you see this as splitting hairs. But I essentially agree with the essence of what you are saying.

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 10:39 PM
I agree with you to a point. Ultimately, the only reason that anyone can pass the Romans 2 judgement is faith. But, Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - it is the "good works" that will be examined, not the "faith". It is the "good works" that are the criteria for entry into heaven, even though we all agree that these works are the result of the action of the Holy Spirit, which is, of course, a gift of pure grace.

But when people manifestly deny what Paul so plainly says, I tend to come to his defence. He means what he says in Romans 2. And he means what he says in 2 Corinthians 5 - the "test" for "entry into heaven" are the good works that have been manifested in the life of the believer.

Perhaps you see this as splitting hairs. But I essentially agree with the essence of what you are saying.I definitely see this as splitting hairs, but I also think we should agree with Paul that every person, saved and lost, will be judged according to their works. In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus clearly indicates that people will be judged by their works: whether they helped the least of these or not. Of course, even unbelievers sometimes help the least of these. Will they be in good standing at the judgment? No. Why? Because our own righteousness is as filthy rags. They did not have the right motives for doing their "good" work and it will not do them any good on that day.

But, of course, while it clearly says everyone will be judged according to their works we have to understand what it means to be judged by our works. Believers have no reason to be concerned about that because our sins are forgiven and forgotten and only the works of the Spirit that were done through us will be held up for judgment and His work will pass judgment with flying colors.

Would you agree with me that, ultimately, people are condemned or not based on whether or not they believe in Christ (John 3:18)?

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 11:25 PM
Would you agree with me that, ultimately, people are condemned or not based on whether or not they believe in Christ (John 3:18)?
As Ed MacMahon used to say to Johnny Carson (are you old enough to remember that?)......you are correct, sir!

In other words, I agree with this particular statement without qualification.

Now, tell me, were you reaching for your "heretic - whoopin" stick like others? :D

RogerW
Nov 11th 2008, 12:19 AM
Roger, I will not answer any more of your questions until you answer the question that has been repeatedly put to you:

[/color]
When you actually engage this question - not talk about other things - then I will answer your questions.

Drew,

I have been (apparently without success) attempting to answer your question all along. But I will try once more to explain to you why I am so certain that you have not properly understood what Paul is teaching us. What does Paul mean here:?

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Every son of Adam must appear befor the judgment seat of Christ. To believers who look for Him, He will appear the second (second coming) time without sin unto salvation. They can be confident at the judgment, knowing they will receive reward because Christ bear their sins, not every man's sin, but He bear the sins of many.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

All judgment is committed to the Son, and He gives life to whom He will. Those who "hear" His Word, and believe already have everlasting life, and they shall not come into condemnation, but have already passed from death to life in Christ.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All judgment is relative to the Son. God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus according to His gospel, not according to their works.

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Men and women who have no interest in Christ, shall give account of and stand responsible for every secret and open sin. Those who believe on Jesus have no sin, therefore no condemnation.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Our deeds done in our flesh have been both judged and put away in our Lord's sacrifice. After He offered one sacrifice for sins FOREVER, He sat down at the right hand of God, until all of His enemies would be made His footstool. With the one offering, Christ PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified (to make holy). This is the covenant that He has made with His elect people; He would put His laws into their hearts and write them in their minds; And their sins and iniquities are remembered no more. If our sins and iniquities are remembered no more, how can His elect be judged for things done in our bodies of death? His elect were perfected forever through His One Sacrifice. The Holy Spirit is our witness, testifying to us of these things.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I hope this answers your question, and I will be happily surprised if you receive what I have given.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 12:35 AM
Too many to list, but here's a good start since these are things that Jesus will specifically point out on judgment day.

Matt 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Hi John146!

That is exactly the works we are to do.

Jesus said the Spirit is upon me because

It was not so that we could have a form of godliness, or that we could have a feel good time.

The Spirit of the Lord (the Anointing) is upon me because, He has Anointed me to:

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Today the Spirit of the Lord is upon the Body of Christ, to continue that same work.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

By the way, do you notice that in Luke, the Lord stops short of declaring the full prophecy of Isaiah:
"and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn"
I wonder why?
Could it be that it is to be fulfilled, at the second coming?

RogerW
Nov 11th 2008, 12:47 AM
If it has nothing to do with our salvationm, then what is Paul talking about here:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I suspect that you are going to say that Paul has changed topics by the time he gets to verse 10 and has left the issue of getting eternal life behind.

This is not really plausible:

In verse 1 to 5 he refleces on the eternal life that is to come for the believer.

Verses 6 to 8 are observations about how great it would be to get that gift of eternal life.

Verse 9 is then the transition that lead into 10 - we are instructed to please God. And then we get verse 10. And in verse 10, he talks about things we will get according to what we have done in the body.

Now you are arguing that "eternal life" is not part of what we get in accordance with verse 10. But verses 1 to 8 have been about nothing other than eternal life.

Paul would have to be the worst, I mean the worst, writer who ever lived to construct this entire sequence and not intend us to understand that, indeed, the eternal life he has been describing is part of the reward we get.

2Co 5 is a continuation of the subject Paul dealt with in the closing of chapter 4. Two things support the believer under trial and suffering; seeing Him Who is invisible and seeing the glory which is to follow our life on this earth. Our confident hope of an eternal reward; a blessed life with Christ forever makes us indifferent to our temporary troubles and encourages us to seek only the Lord's approval.

The physical body is an "earthly house" and it houses our soul. It is also called a "tabernacle" or tent because it is temporary. Believers have "in the heavens" a dwelling place made by God, through the righteousness and death of Christ (Jo 14:1-3). This eternal dwelling place will be ours to enjoy after our bodies die.

Believers groan under the burdens of this life, because of the nature and corruption of sin which remains in our bodies of death (Ro 7:24-25). We long to be free of these bodies of death and sin, and to be like Christ (Ps 17:15). We desire death so that we can put on immortality and enter into the eternal joy of the Lord. When we enter into His presence at His Second Coming we will be clothed in pure and perfect robes of Christ's righteousness, so we will not be ashamed or cast out for being naked (Mt. 22:11-13).

When Christ comes again we will live truly in glory, holiness and immortality (1Co 15:51-54). It is not that we desire death for its own sake, but even in the flesh we rejoice in the Lord and His Providence. But death is to be desired because it leads the believer to that glorious change into the image of Christ.

After we have been delivered from our bodies of death, and have put on incorruptible, immortal spiritual bodies, will Christ bring us to the judgment seat to make us accountable for things we've done in our physical bodies of death? Not according to Scripture.

It is our sovereign Lord Who has chosen, redeemed and called us to that glory and immortality (Ro 8:28-31). We can be sure of that inheritance, for God, in His unchangeable purpose (Mal 3:6), has determined to populate the new heaven and new earth with people created in the image of Christ. He gave His Son to redeem them and to provide for them a perfect righteousness, and He has given His Holy Spirit as a pledge of that promise (Eph 1:13,14). Salvation is of the Lord in its plan, it execution, its application, its continuation and its ultimate perfection. Because Christ has done it all, we are confident and assured that we shall enjoy the eternal reward at His coming.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 11th 2008, 12:55 AM
Now, tell me, were you reaching for your "heretic - whoopin" stick like others? :D

Drew,

I have never called you a heretic, nor have I even hinted that you are anything less than a brother in Christ. (Granted, I've gotten a little testy at times; please forgive this) Please understand, I believe you have been deceived by the New Perspective on Paul. That can and does happen to Christians. The only reason I expose NT Wrights heretical doctrine is because I have witnessed first hand the harm it has done to the universal church, and I wanted to caution you to read him with great care. Truth is I have heard some say that NT Wright himself once supported and defended the Reformed doctrines of Sovereign grace. I don't know if this is true or not. If it is true, sadly, like many learned theologians his much learning has caused his stumbling and I pray that God will help him to return to the true Biblical doctrine.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 01:07 AM
[/i]


I am confused. There is not much difficult to understand in this declaration:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27954a)] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

When someone says that you will get something according to what you have done, that does not means that you will get that something according to something other than what you have done.

Drew

I think that since we have both been on this forum, you have constantly brought up this one verse, that you seem to hang on to.

It has been discussed several times in this and other threads, what the meaning of this is in context of the whole, but you will not accept what others or I have said in the past.

You say that salvation is by God through grace, and not works. Then you say that salvation is by works, not grace.

Paul says that eternal life will be given to those who: by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality. The point is that no one has or can achieve this. This is what Paul goes on to explain.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The problem is that you will not accept this. You prefer your little pet out of context one liner.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 11th 2008, 01:13 AM
Let the words of Paul speak. If I am a heretic, then I am in good company:

I did not call you a heretic.
I said your heresy (what you are believing and teaching)

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 09:18 AM
"Eternal means never ending"

Does it?

Well not always as can be shown below.

[aionios]
Eternal times; World began; Times of the ages; Long ages;

Eternal
<1,,165,aion>
"an age," is translated "eternal" in Eph_3:11, lit., "(purpose) of the ages" (marg.). See AGE.

<2,,166,aionios>
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom_16:25; 2Ti_1:9; Tit_1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom_16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

Rom 16:25

(ALT) (14:24) Now to the One able to establish you* according to my Gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to [the] revelation of [the] secret [or, mystery] in eternal times having been kept silent,

(ASV) Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,

(Darby) Now to him that is able to establish you, according to my glad tidings and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages,

(EMTV) (14:24) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began,

(ESV) Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

(KJV+) NowG1161 to him that is of powerG1410 to stablishG4741 youG5209 accordingG2596 to myG3450 gospel,G2098 andG2532 theG3588 preachingG2782 of JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 accordingG2596 to the revelationG602 of the mystery,G3466 which was kept secretG4601 since the world began,G5550 G166

(KJVR) Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

(LITV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the proclaiming of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery having been kept unvoiced during eternal times,

(MKJV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, having been unvoiced during eternal times;

(NASB) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

(RV) Now to him that is able to stablish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,

(YLT) And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

I would have answered this yesterday but my PC chose to do its tune up, and back up.

With regards to the following if eternal does not mean "never ending" then how do we explian eternity?

Dan 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=27&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mt 25:46 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=25&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thess 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=53&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

With regards to the following, is there salvation in the grave?

2 Cor 6:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Toolman
Nov 11th 2008, 04:07 PM
I agree with you to a point. Ultimately, the only reason that anyone can pass the Romans 2 judgement is faith. But, Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - it is the "good works" that will be examined, not the "faith". It is the "good works" that are the criteria for entry into heaven, even though we all agree that these works are the result of the action of the Holy Spirit, which is, of course, a gift of pure grace.

Drew,

Is this gift of pure grace resistable or irresistable? Is the Spirit of God doing the work or is it the man's own will that does these works?

John146
Nov 11th 2008, 04:37 PM
As Ed MacMahon used to say to Johnny Carson (are you old enough to remember that?)......you are correct, sir!

In other words, I agree with this particular statement without qualification.I thought so


Now, tell me, were you reaching for your "heretic - whoopin" stick like others? :DNo, not at all. Unlike some others here, I chose not to ignore you when you clarified that these works that you're talking about are not done in our own power. But sometimes you do say things that could make someone scratch their head if they were not aware of your overall view.

John146
Nov 11th 2008, 04:45 PM
Hi John146!

That is exactly the works we are to do.

Jesus said the Spirit is upon me because

It was not so that we could have a form of godliness, or that we could have a feel good time.

The Spirit of the Lord (the Anointing) is upon me because, He has Anointed me to:

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Today the Spirit of the Lord is upon the Body of Christ, to continue that same work.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

By the way, do you notice that in Luke, the Lord stops short of declaring the full prophecy of Isaiah:
"and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn"
I wonder why?
Could it be that it is to be fulfilled, at the second coming?It depends on which day of vengeance that passage is talking about. There was a day of vengeance for Jerusalem that occurred in 70 AD. There is a future day of vengeance coming upon the world when Christ returns. When He returns, all believers will be comforted because that is when God will wipe the tears from off all our faces (Isa 25:8, 1 Cor 15:54, Rev 21:4). Finally, there will be no more death, pain, sorrow or crying (Rev 21:4).

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 06:59 PM
Too many to list, but here's a good start since these are things that Jesus will specifically point out on judgment day.

Matt 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Thanks, that therefor would correspond with James 2:14,15,16. concerning faith that work.

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it

So showing love towards one another are the works that work?

1 Thess 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Jn 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jn 15:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Thanks again,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 11th 2008, 07:21 PM
Thanks, that therefor would correspond with James 2:14,15,16. concerning faith that work.

Jas 2:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it

So showing love towards one another are the works that work?

1 Thess 3:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=52&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

Heb 6:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Jn 13:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jn 13:35 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=35) By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Jn 15:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jn 15:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Thanks again,

God bless you!

FirstfruitsYes, I believe James was trying to make the point that the kind of faith that justifies us should not be confused with the kind of faith that even demons have while trembling in fear (James 2:19). They know who Jesus is but do not know Him. There is a big difference between believing with all your heart and being willing to obey and submit to Christ as Lord and just believing in your head but not being willing to submit to Him in obedience.

Firstfruits
Nov 11th 2008, 08:08 PM
Yes, I believe James was trying to make the point that the kind of faith that justifies us should not be confused with the kind of faith that even demons have while trembling in fear (James 1:19). They know who Jesus is but do not know Him. There is a big difference between believing with all your heart and being willing to obey and submit to Christ as Lord and just believing in your head but not being willing to submit to Him in obedience.

Thanks John146,

Jas 1:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jas 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

If what the Apostles gave toward each other can we say that although they could love, not all would love they could force no one to love them, Just as it is with God, "For God so loved the world"

Mt 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Freely we have received Gods love and freely we must give.

Whosoever will!!!!!

God bless you!