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Firstfruits
Oct 18th 2008, 07:36 PM
According to the following scriptures, Gods gift to those that believe is offered freely to those that desire/want it.

Is 55:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=55&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Mt 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Can we unwillingly receive the gift of God?

Firstfruits

petepet
Oct 18th 2008, 07:51 PM
According to the following scriptures, Gods gift to those that believe is offered freely to those that desire/want it.

Is 55:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=55&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Mt 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Can we unwillingly receive the gift of God?

Firstfruits

No, but our willlingness might well be seen as resulting from God's gracious work within us.

RogerW
Oct 18th 2008, 07:51 PM
According to the following scriptures, Gods gift to those that believe is offered freely to those that desire/want it.

Is 55:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=55&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev 21:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=21&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Mt 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Can we unwillingly receive the gift of God?

Firstfruits

Greetings Firstfruits,

Whosoever will believe? Whosoever can believe? And how will this be accomplished? Free will or God's will?

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Oct 19th 2008, 10:04 AM
No, but our willlingness might well be seen as resulting from God's gracious work within us.

So even though God has willingly offered the gift, unless we wiilingly accept it we cannot have it.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Can we be willing and unwilling at the same time regarding Gods gift?

"Whosoever will" means whoever desires/wants.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 19th 2008, 10:12 AM
Greetings Firstfruits,

Whosoever will believe? Whosoever can believe? And how will this be accomplished? Free will or God's will?

Many Blessings,
RW

Willingly = One's own accord, Ones own free will, Freely.

By willingly accepting Gods free Gift we ought to willingly do the will of God.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Oma
Oct 20th 2008, 03:04 AM
No, but our willlingness might well be seen as resulting from God's gracious work within us.

That's how I see it too.

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2008, 09:16 AM
That's how I see it too.

That is according to our willingness, not unwillngness. Did you receive Gods gift willingly or unwillingly?

Has God given his gift to anyone that was not willing to accept.

If Someone offers you something that you do not want or desire will you unwillingly take it?

Willingly = freely

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Oma
Oct 20th 2008, 04:43 PM
That is according to our willingness, not unwillngness. Did you receive Gods gift willingly or unwillingly?

Has God given his gift to anyone that was not willing to accept.

If Someone offers you something that you do not want or desire will you unwillingly take it?

Willingly = freely

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


Psa 110:3
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,.....

John146
Oct 20th 2008, 05:14 PM
So even though God has willingly offered the gift, unless we wiilingly accept it we cannot have it.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Can we be willing and unwilling at the same time regarding Gods gift?

"Whosoever will" means whoever desires/wants.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsI agree. It is a free gift that Christ offers to anyone who willingly desires it and accepts it. Christ isn't going to give the gift to anyone without them indicating that they want it. People must willingly choose whether to accept the gift or not.

Friend of I AM
Oct 20th 2008, 05:47 PM
I agree. It is a free gift that Christ offers to anyone who willingly desires it and accepts it. Christ isn't going to give the gift to anyone without them indicating that they want it. People must willingly choose whether to accept the gift or not.

I think God can give the gift without people really accepting it and still give an individual salvation. We have to realize that sometimes people aren't in their right minds, and thus - it is up to God in his wisdom and descretion to make a judgement call on whether to enact his mercy upon an individual in such a situation.

This is kind of an interesting comparison, take it as you will...but I was watching the movie the other day I am legend, where people were infected with some sort of madness virus which caused them to become mindless evil zombies. Will Smith kind of played the prototypical savior of the movie, and at the end - a cure was found to rid the world of the virus.

Think of the virus as being sin, and the gift or cure as being God's mercy. So I guess the bottom line is that we must at times realize that man in his thoughts and actions, isn't always entirely capable of doing that which is pleasing to God...this includes accepting the gift of salvation. Think about it this way, who in their right mind would truly not accept such a gift? If it were a simple matter of acceptance and our entire ability to do so, then most of us would already have entered the promised land at this point.

In Christ,

Stephen

Veretax
Oct 20th 2008, 06:09 PM
What you are saying is really unscriptural. If all it took was God to Give the Gift without man having to accept it, then why wouldn't he just save everyone? We know from 2 Peter that God does not desire that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

It also seems to me to go against what Jesus said. "I am the way, truth, and the life no man cometh to the father but by me." Or that broad is the path of transgression and strait and narrow is the path of salvation (paraphrasing) etc.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 20th 2008, 06:13 PM
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure

God works it in us, and we work it out.

If God has not worked it in us to will and to do, then no man can work it out.

The only thing so called 'free will' can achieve is, man made religion and a man made intellectual salvation.

When I first fell in love with my wife, I did not free will choose to love her. When I met her, something was created in my heart, that grew and grew. That something in my heart was so attracted to her, and I could not resist or reject.

Emanate
Oct 20th 2008, 06:17 PM
What you are saying is really unscriptural. If all it took was God to Give the Gift without man having to accept it, then why wouldn't he just save everyone? We know from 2 Peter that God does not desire that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

It also seems to me to go against what Jesus said. "I am the way, truth, and the life no man cometh to the father but by me." Or that broad is the path of transgression and strait and narrow is the path of salvation (paraphrasing) etc.


Would that not be where the receiving/accepting part comes into play?

John146
Oct 20th 2008, 06:40 PM
I think God can give the gift without people really accepting it and still give an individual salvation. We have to realize that sometimes people aren't in their right minds, and thus - it is up to God in his wisdom and descretion to make a judgement call on whether to enact his mercy upon an individual in such a situation. Sorry, but that didn't make much sense to me.


This is kind of an interesting comparison, take it as you will...but I was watching the movie the other day I am legend, where people were infected with some sort of madness virus which caused them to become mindless evil zombies. Will Smith kind of played the prototypical savior of the movie, and at the end - a cure was found to rid the world of the virus.

Think of the virus as being sin, and the gift or cure as being God's mercy. So I guess the bottom line is that we must at times realize that man in his thoughts and actions, isn't always entirely capable of doing that which pleasing to God...this includes accepting the gift of salvation. Think about it this way, who in their right mind would truly not accept such a gift? If it were a simple matter of acceptance and our entire ability to do so, then most of us would already have entered the promised land at this point.

In Christ,

StephenI disagree. Many people who saw Jesus do miracles and heard Him say amazing things still rejected Him. So, for you to say that no one in their right mind would not accept such a gift is not a realistic thing to say. Many people would rather do their own thing and take pleasure in the evil things of this world than have to submit to God and be accountable to Him.

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2008, 06:41 PM
Would that not be where the receiving/accepting part comes into play?

Would that be willingly or unwillingly? remembering that Jesus said "Take it freely" meaning willingly.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 20th 2008, 06:46 PM
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in youboth to will and to do of his good pleasure

God works it in us, and we work it out.

If God has not worked it in us to will and to do, then no man can work it out.

The only thing so called 'free will' can achieve is, man made religion and a man made intellectual salvation.

When I first fell in love with my wife, I did not free will choose to love her. When I met her, something was created in my heart, that grew and grew. That something in my heart was so attracted to her, and I could not resist or reject.

Do not forget that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, so do you believe that God will give you eternal life unless you have first willingly accepted Jesus?

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 20th 2008, 06:50 PM
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in youboth to will and to do of his good pleasure

God works it in us, and we work it out.

If God has not worked it in us to will and to do, then no man can work it out.That passage is directed towards believers who have already accepted Christ so it doesn't really fit in this discussion, which has to do with how people initially become Christians.


The only thing so called 'free will' can achieve is, man made religion and a man made intellectual salvation.What is your interpretation of the following verse then:

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Emanate
Oct 20th 2008, 06:54 PM
Would that be willingly or unwillingly? remembering that Jesus said "Take it freely" meaning willingly.

Firstfruits


You are suggesting that God may trick us and give us Salvation even if we do not want it?

John146
Oct 20th 2008, 07:12 PM
Do not forget that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, so do you believe that God will give you eternal life unless you have first willingly accepted Jesus?

FirstfruitsRight. If it doesn't have to be accepted, then why wouldn't God, who is not a respecter of persons, just give it to everyone? Also, why do we have examples of people accepting or rejecting the gospel? Doesn't that imply that they made that choice? If there is no choice, then there is no such thing as one accepting or rejecting the gospel.

The following passages indicate that it is a choice:

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 12
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Luke 7
29And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Acts 7
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Matt 13
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Joshua 24
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Isaiah 66
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 20th 2008, 07:42 PM
Do not forget that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ,

Oh please. What is with the "do not forget"?


so do you believe that God will give you eternal life unless you have first willingly accepted Jesus?

Firstfruits

Yes.

Again; It is not about willingness. It is about desire.

Lord have mercy on me a sinner. Has absolutely nothing to do with a 'free will choice' cry from the heart. It is a desire for mercy.

When the ten lepers cried out to the Lord for mercy, and to heal them. It was a desire for Him to meet thee needs.

Again a leper:

Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

The Centurion:

Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

The man who fell among thiefs:

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Where is anything remotely like 'free will' in any of these and many other stories?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 20th 2008, 08:01 PM
That passage is directed towards believers who have already accepted Christ so it doesn't really fit in this discussion, which has to do with how people initially become Christians.

What is your interpretation of the following verse then:

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Nothing to do with free will choice. It is about belief.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The "Whosoever" are those who are sick, and they know they are very sick.

Some people do not believe that they are sick, or that there sickness is not a great sickness. They do not see the need of the physician. They may believe they can heal themselves, or in some other alternate healing remedy.

Some believe that the physician charges to much for their healing, but the Lord tell them that it is freely given to them. The question is do they believe Him?

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 07:44 AM
Oh please. What is with the "do not forget"?



Yes.

Again; It is not about willingness. It is about desire.

Lord have mercy on me a sinner. Has absolutely nothing to do with a 'free will choice' cry from the heart. It is a desire for mercy.

When the ten lepers cried out to the Lord for mercy, and to heal them. It was a desire for Him to meet thee needs.

Again a leper:

Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

The Centurion:

Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marveled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

The man who fell among thiefs:

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Where is anything remotely like 'free will' in any of these and many other stories?

This scripture tells us that whoever desires let him it take it freely/willingly.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Whosoever will/whoever desires/wants.


Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 07:52 AM
Right. If it doesn't have to be accepted, then why wouldn't God, who is not a respecter of persons, just give it to everyone? Also, why do we have examples of people accepting or rejecting the gospel? Doesn't that imply that they made that choice? If there is no choice, then there is no such thing as one accepting or rejecting the gospel.

The following passages indicate that it is a choice:

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 12
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Luke 7
29And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Acts 7
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Matt 13
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Joshua 24
15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Isaiah 66
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.


I agree, if we have been offered Christ and eternal life and we do not accept Gods offer then we have rejected Gods gift.

Why would God give us a gift that we do not want, the gift being Jesus.

God bless you!!

Sorry, I cannot Rep you at the moment.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 07:57 AM
Nothing to do with free will choice. It is about belief.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The "Whosoever" are those who are sick, and they know they are very sick.

Some people do not believe that they are sick, or that there sickness is not a great sickness. They do not see the need of the physician. They may believe they can heal themselves, or in some other alternate healing remedy.

Some believe that the physician charges to much for their healing, but the Lord tell them that it is freely given to them. The question is do they believe Him?

Can you accept that which you do not believe?

Can you be forced to believe?

If you have no faith in Christ you cannot be saved, you cannot recieve Gods gift. :hmm:

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 10:56 AM
I agree, if we have been offered Christ and eternal life and we do not accept Gods offer then we have rejected Gods gift.

Why would God give us a gift that we do not want, the gift being Jesus.

God bless you!!

Sorry, I cannot Rep you at the moment.

Firstfruits


Would you not offer water to someone you thought was obviously thirsty? Or bread to someone who is hungry? How about clothing for someone who is destitute?

The answer to all three is simple. Love. God offers because he loves us, plain and simple. However, as in all three examples the person being offered could be proud and refuse that gift of water, bread, or clothing.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 11:20 AM
Would you not offer water to someone you thought was obviously thirsty? Or bread to someone who is hungry? How about clothing for someone who is destitute?

The answer to all three is simple. Love. God offers because he loves us, plain and simple. However, as in all three examples the person being offered could be proud and refuse that gift of water, bread, or clothing.

I understand what you are saying, the thing is God has offered us eternal life when we accept His Son Jesus.

Not all will believe.

Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

There's a saying " you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink"

Jn 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The water is there, the water is free, yet still not all will drink.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 11:58 AM
The way I've always understood it, is that Christ died for all the sins of the World, for really it only took one sin to be guilty of the entire law, however, now to receive the debt payment you must accept the debt payor, that being Christ. So in this one thing are all men are tried whether they believe by faith, or believe not. Christ's blood covered all sin as made known by the law so that to enter in we need only walk through the correct gate. Christ is that gate. If we fail to enter to accept that grace and debt payment, that is not to make Jesus's payment lessened.

In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 12:23 PM
The way I've always understood it, is that Christ died for all the sins of the World, for really it only took one sin to be guilty of the entire law, however, now to receive the debt payment you must accept the debt payor, that being Christ. So in this one thing are all men are tried whether they believe by faith, or believe not. Christ's blood covered all sin as made known by the law so that to enter in we need only walk through the correct gate. Christ is that gate. If we fail to enter to accept that grace and debt payment, that is not to make Jesus's payment lessened.

In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.

Salvation is for all mankind but it can only be gained by accepting or believing in Jesus.

Mt 18:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 11:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, not all have believed.

Rom 10:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 12:43 PM
Salvation is for all mankind but it can only be gained by accepting or believing in Jesus.

... (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14)

Again, not all have believed.

... (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14)

Firstfruits

Heh, I agree with you, perhaps you misunderstood what I said here:

In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.

Belief clearly meaning acceptance of Christs Sacrifice by faith. I think we are in agreement, though we may word it slightly differently. Christ's sacrifice was for all, but as far as Salvation is concerned it is only effectual/effective/redeemed as if by a coupon, by those who have trusted his sacrifice by faith.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 01:01 PM
Heh, I agree with you, perhaps you misunderstood what I said here:

In the end though it may seem that Christ's sacrifice is only effectual for believers, it does not mean that it was not intended for all mankind.

Belief clearly meaning acceptance of Christs Sacrifice by faith. I think we are in agreement, though we may word it slightly differently. Christ's sacrifice was for all, but as far as Salvation is concerned it is only effectual/effective/redeemed as if by a coupon, by those who have trusted his sacrifice by faith.

Amen! Yes we are in agreement.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 02:17 PM
What you are saying is really unscriptural. If all it took was God to Give the Gift without man having to accept it, then why wouldn't he just save everyone? We know from 2 Peter that God does not desire that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

It also seems to me to go against what Jesus said. "I am the way, truth, and the life no man cometh to the father but by me." Or that broad is the path of transgression and strait and narrow is the path of salvation (paraphrasing) etc.

Hello Veretax,

The point I was essentially making was that at times, people themselves are unable to come to repentence by their own volition due to various mitigating factors. Thus I think at times God can make a determining factor based on how he decides to enact his mercy upon an individual or individuals.

I'm not sure how God goes about doing this, but lets use another practical analogy. Think of a child who doesn't want to receive a flu/allergy shot, but their parent makes them receive it anyway because they know what's best for their child, and their child hasn't come to the level of maturity yet to be able to accept what will benefit them.

Or here's an additional biblical example, think of the situation with Balaam. Balaam was actually lead off of the road to destruction by his own donkey, whom rebuked him several times before the angel of the Lord was made visible before him.

God's mercy is one of the most powerful attributes we have within our lives, and each day despite our faith, we all need to hope and pray that God decides to be merciful with us - despite what salvific state we believe ourselves to be in within our present walks.

God bless,

Stephen

BroRog
Oct 21st 2008, 02:25 PM
Many are called; Few are chosen.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 21st 2008, 02:42 PM
This scripture tells us that whoever desires let him it take it freely/willingly.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Whosoever will/whoever desires/wants.


Firstfruits

Freely means without cost

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 02:56 PM
Freely means without cost

In this instance it means willingly.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You either choose to drink or you do not, the choice is yours.

You either choose Christ or you don't.

Willingy = freely, by your own free will, by your own accord.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 03:21 PM
In this instance it means willingly.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You either choose to drink or you do not, the choice is yours.

You either choose Christ or you don't.

Willingy = freely, by your own free will, by your own accord.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Ahh...but remember, a righteous man's steps are guided by the Lord. Thus a man who walks with God, is truly having God make all of the right choices for him, as only God possesses the foreknowledge necessary for one to make the right choice. Thus one is always making a free will choice when God is working through them, as God himself is the only one who is sovereign.

In Christ,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 03:30 PM
Ahh...but remember, a righteous man's steps are guided by the Lord. Thus a man who walks with God, is truly having God make all of the right choices for him, as only God possesses the foreknowledge necessary for one to make the right choice. Thus one is always making a free will choice when God is working through them, as God himself is the only one who is sovereign.

In Christ,

Stephen

As you have said "a righteous man" A righteous man means that they have put on Christ or Chosen to follow Christ and do the will of God. What were they before they became righteous or put on Christ, were they not unbelievers/sinners?

Did they not make the descision to repent according to the scriptures and follow Christ?

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 03:49 PM
As you have said "a righteous man" A righteous man means that they have put on Christ or Chosen to follow Christ and do the will of God. What were they before they became righteous or put on Christ, were they not unbelievers/sinners?

Did they not make the descision to repent according to the scriptures and follow Christ?

Firstfruits

Hey Firstfruits,

According to scriptures..God is working all things for the good of those who love him. Thus, I believe that God himself is the ultimate decider in our lives when it comes to making the right decisions which will lead us to him.

When I come to the fork in the road which leads me to those waters of life, my hope is that God will say "this is the right way, walk in it" and I will not be subject to determining which way to walk in regarding my own accord...nor will I be subject to the belief that if my faith fails..God will not be faithful in his promise in bringing me to where he has stated he will bring me.

So despite what faith I believe I have, I continue to pray to God each day that he leads me not into temptation, but instead delivers me from evil as I know that only he has the ability to choose the salvific path for me.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 06:35 PM
Hey Firstfruits,

According to scriptures..God is working all things for the good of those who love him. Thus, I believe that God himself is the ultimate decider in our lives when it comes to making the right decisions which will lead us to him.

When I come to the fork in the road which leads me to those waters of life, my hope is that God will say "this is the right way, walk in it" and I will not be subject to determining which way to walk in regarding my own accord...nor will I be subject to the belief that if my faith fails..God will not be faithful in his promise in bringing me to where he has stated he will bring me.

So despite what faith I believe I have, I continue to pray to God each day that he leads me not into temptation, but instead delivers me from evil as I know that only he has the ability to choose the salvific path for me.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

But you already believe and love God, but was that always the case?

Did you always believe and love God as you do now?

Did you make a descision to change your life according to what you were taught about God and His Son Jesus and the benefits of doing so?

Were you forced to believe, which you must do to have faith in Christ as God said we must, in order to have eternal life?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 06:40 PM
Nothing to do with free will choice. It is about belief.

Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The "Whosoever" are those who are sick, and they know they are very sick.

Some people do not believe that they are sick, or that there sickness is not a great sickness. They do not see the need of the physician. They may believe they can heal themselves, or in some other alternate healing remedy.

Some believe that the physician charges to much for their healing, but the Lord tell them that it is freely given to them. The question is do they believe Him?All I and others here are saying is that people are free to choose what they believe. Do you agree with that or not?

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 07:01 PM
But you already believe and love God, but was that always the case?

Did you always believe and love God as you do now?

Did you make a descision to change your life according to what you were taught about God and His Son Jesus and the benefits of doing so?

Were you forced to believe, which you must do to have faith in Christ as God said we must, in order to have eternal life?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Good questions. I know this is such a difficult topic to comprehend to most, and I must freely(or not so freely..lol) admit that I don't have all of the answers regarding God's sovereignty, and what it allows us as believers to do within our walks.

All of this being said, I think the underlying question you are asking is "what makes someone free to choose." The only logical answer to this question is "God." Thus at some point, we do indeed have to acknowledge within our walks that we ourselves are kind of limited in what we can do when making the right choices(and in our faith) - being that we are limited beings, who possess limited knowledge and intelligence. Thus this is when I believe God's mercy comes into play. David acknowledges this frequently in his psalms, as does the Apostle Paul within his epistles.

We have to lean on the rock, in order to really be assured of anything. Trust not in ourselves, but simply just trust in God.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 07:38 PM
Good questions. I know this is such a difficult topic to comprehend to most, and I must freely(or not so freely..lol) admit that I don't have all of the answers regarding God's sovereignty, and what it allows us as believers to do within our walks.

All of this being said, I think the underlying question you are asking is "what makes someone free to choose." The only logical answer to this question is "God." Thus at some point, we do indeed have to acknowledge within our walks that we ourselves are kind of limited in what we can do when making the right choices(and in our faith) - being that we limited beings, who possess limited knowledge and intelligence. Thus this is when I believe God's mercy comes into play. David acknowledges this frequently in his psalms, as does the Apostle Paul within his epistles.

We have to lean on the rock, in order to really be assured of anything. Trust not in ourselves, but simply just trust in God.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

Thank you Stephen,

In the following Jesus told the disciples that what they had received freely they were to give freely;

Mt 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (Count: 2)

They received Jesus freely/willingly and they should in turn give what they had received freely/willingy.

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Count: 2)

The choice here is either salvation or damnation, Heaven or Hell.

There will surely be people going to hell, as there will be people going to heaven.

If there was no choice why give the option or the warning?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

BroRog
Oct 21st 2008, 07:56 PM
All I and others here are saying is that people are free to choose what they believe. Do you agree with that or not?

"I can't believe that!" said Alice.

"Can't you?" the queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes."

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe impossible things."

"I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

Partaker of Christ
Oct 21st 2008, 08:51 PM
In this instance it means willingly.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You either choose to drink or you do not, the choice is yours.

You either choose Christ or you don't.

Willingy = freely, by your own free will, by your own accord.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

ESV: is one version that helps better grasp this verse.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 09:21 PM
Thank you Stephen,

In the following Jesus told the disciples that what they had received freely they were to give freely;

Mt 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (Count: 2)

They received Jesus freely/willingly and they should in turn give what they had received freely/willingy.

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Count: 2)

The choice here is either salvation or damnation, Heaven or Hell.

There will surely be people going to hell, as there will be people going to heaven.

If there was no choice why give the option or the warning?

God bless you!

FirstfruitsGreat points. It doesn't say he/she that was chosen based on no criteria is saved and he/she who was not chosen based on no criteria is damned. The criteria is clear. One must believe in Christ. No one believes for us. The truth is there for all to see but people must choose to believe it.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 21st 2008, 09:23 PM
All I and others here are saying is that people are free to choose what they believe. Do you agree with that or not?

Hi John146!!

No.

I guess the answer can be yes in some limited ways. The carnal mind and the carnal will, can only believe and chose what is carnal.

Peter believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Not because of flesh and blood, but because the Father had revealed this to him.

Peter believed (in his carnal) that he would not deny the Lord. His carnal mind, and his carnal will was based on his carnal understanding, that his choice would be to die for the Lord.

The Lord said that Satan had asked (who did he ask, and who gave him that permission?)

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [asked] to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus said; I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not.

Did Peter have a choice in the spiritual matters?

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 09:25 PM
ESV: is one version that helps better grasp this verse.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.The point remains the same. Anyone who desires the water of life (eternal life) must take it. The Greek for "let him take" is lambanō (Strong's 2983). It means to accept or receive what is offered. One can choose to either accept and receive the gift or reject it and refuse to receive it.

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 09:40 PM
Hi John146!!

No.

I guess the answer can be yes in some limited ways. The carnal mind and the carnal will, can only believe and chose what is carnal.Did the publican in the following passage choose to repent and ask for God's mercy or did it just automatically happen?

9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Did God choose to give the publican the ability to repent while not giving the Pharisee that same ability? I don't believe so. People choose to either humble themselves or exalt themselves. Jesus taught that the publican humbled himself. He wasn't made humble by God. He humbled himself. That was by choice.


Peter believed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Not because of flesh and blood, but because the Father had revealed this to him.Yes, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a choice whether or not to believe it in his heart. Read Romans 1:16-32. God has made Himself known to all men, yet not all men believe in Him. Why? Because many choose not to believe.


Peter believed (in his carnal) that he would not deny the Lord. His carnal mind, and his carnal will was based on his carnal understanding, that his choice would be to die for the Lord.

The Lord said that Satan had asked (who did he ask, and who gave him that permission?)

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [asked] to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus said; I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not.

Did Peter have a choice in the spiritual matters?Yes, he did, but Jesus also chose to pray for him because He loved him and had a plan for him. Peter had faith, but he had less than he thought he had. Peter chose to walk out on the water when He saw Jesus out there. Because he did have some faith, he was able to also walk on the water for a short time before doubt crept in. Peter was the only disciple brave enough to follow Jesus to see what was happening to him. But, again, since his faith wasn't yet strong he denied Jesus when asked. Jesus knew that Peter's heart was in the right place despite being immature in the faith at that point.

If you think people don't have a choice in the matter then explain this passage:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 09:44 PM
"I can't believe that!" said Alice.

"Can't you?" the queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes."

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe impossible things."

"I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Lewis Carroll, Alice in WonderlandYes, trying to make a point with an illustration from a ridiculous story is always the best policy. Why use scripture to make a point when you can use ridiculous children's stories instead, right? :rolleyes:

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 09:45 PM
Thank you Stephen,

In the following Jesus told the disciples that what they had received freely they were to give freely;

Mt 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. (Count: 2)

They received Jesus freely/willingly and they should in turn give what they had received freely/willingy.

Mk 16:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Count: 2)

The choice here is either salvation or damnation, Heaven or Hell.

There will surely be people going to hell, as there will be people going to heaven.

If there was no choice why give the option or the warning?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

All free will choices come from God. That was what has been said from the beginning. We make free will choices based on God's free will and sovereignty working through us. In order to make the right choice, we really first have to accept the fact that we are at God's mercy and have no ability to make the right choice unto ourselves to begin with.

Remember the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these...(children) Children have to be lead, like sheep..they need to be lead by someone who can guide them in the right direction.

If we could indeed make the right choice that lead us to God, then Christ would not have come here to give us this freedom of "choice" to begin with. Been an interesting discussion with you FF. God bless you much and I hope you have learned something from this discussion. I know that I indeed have.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 21st 2008, 09:58 PM
The point remains the same. Anyone who desires the water of life (eternal life) must take it. The Greek for "let him take" is lambanō (Strong's 2983). It means to accept or receive what is offered. One can choose to either accept and receive the gift or reject it and refuse to receive it.

Let me tell you this.
When I was aged 11 years old I knew the Lord, and became a Christian. My mother was not a believer, and my father was an atheist. No matter what I said or did changed anything to persuade them of the truth.

When aged 34 years old, God arranged circumstances that drew my mother to church, and she became a believer. Not until the Lord began a work, could my mother believe.
My father was still an atheist. He thought we were potty, and he would not have us speak with him on anything Christian. He would not believe anything spiritual. He said he would only believe what he could see.

Almost 3 years later, at night and in his room, the Lord opened his eyes to seeing demons.
Did he choose to see them? Did he choose to believe that he saw them? No and no.

His heart was pierced, and he was a changed man. He was sold out for Christ, and a most humble loving man until he passed on four years later.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 21st 2008, 10:22 PM
If you think people don't have a choice in the matter then explain this passage:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen

BroRog
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:41 AM
Yes, trying to make a point with an illustration from a ridiculous story is always the best policy. Why use scripture to make a point when you can use ridiculous children's stories instead, right? :rolleyes:

That's right. Sometimes a simple illustration is the best. Did you get it?

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:51 AM
ESV: is one version that helps better grasp this verse.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

It has not changed the fact that being free you still have to take it.

Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.[/quote]

Let/allow the one who desires the water.

Again, the choice is given, if you want it take it.

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:56 AM
Let me tell you this.
When I was aged 11 years old I knew the Lord, and became a Christian. My mother was not a believer, and my father was an atheist. No matter what I said or did changed anything to persuade them of the truth.

When aged 34 years old, God arranged circumstances that drew my mother to church, and she became a believer. Not until the Lord began a work, could my mother believe.
My father was still an atheist. He thought we were potty, and he would not have us speak with him on anything Christian. He would not believe anything spiritual. He said he would only believe what he could see.

Almost 3 years later, at night and in his room, the Lord opened his eyes to seeing demons.
Did he choose to see them? Did he choose to believe that he saw them? No and no.

His heart was pierced, and he was a changed man. He was sold out for Christ, and a most humble loving man until he passed on four years later.

When was the first time you can remember hearing the word of God and making up your mind to follow Christ based on what you were taught?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:59 AM
Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen

With there being no choices regarding serving God, why has God given us options/choices with all that he has given us?

Firstfruits

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:50 PM
In this instance it means willingly.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

You either choose to drink or you do not, the choice is yours.

You either choose Christ or you don't.

Willingy = freely, by your own free will, by your own accord.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

No. There are two different words: "wills" (Greek: thelo); and "freely" (Greek: dorean). The first word refers to choosing/choice, but the seond word refers to a gift - something that is without cost.

Willingly does not = freely. Willingly = willingly; and freely = freely.

ananias

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:02 PM
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in youboth to will and to do of his good pleasure

God works it in us, and we work it out.

If God has not worked it in us to will and to do, then no man can work it out.

The only thing so called 'free will' can achieve is, man made religion and a man made intellectual salvation.

When I first fell in love with my wife, I did not free will choose to love her. When I met her, something was created in my heart, that grew and grew. That something in my heart was so attracted to her, and I could not resist or reject.

That's right. "The (human) heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer.17: 9).

It's not possible for man to (a) come to faith in Christ; and (b) choose Christ UNLESS God, in His mercy and grace, makes it possible for an individual to do so. If anyone thinks his salvation/faith/will was not ALL of God's grace, it means he's unaware of the dpeth of his own human depravity.

ananias

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:08 PM
No. There are two different words: "wills" (Greek: thelo); and "freely" (Greek: dorean). The first word refers to choosing/choice, but the seond word refers to a gift - something that is without cost.

Willingly does not = freely. Willingly = willingly; and freely = freely.

ananias

Do we not have a choice wether or not we accept the free gift?

People still go to hell because they have not accepted Christ don't they?

Did they therefore not have a choice?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:11 PM
That's right. "The (human) heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer.17: 9).

It's not possible for man to (a) come to faith in Christ; and (b) choose Christ UNLESS God, in His mercy and grace, makes it possible for an individual to do so. If anyone thinks his salvation/faith/will was not ALL of God's grace, it means he's unaware of the dpeth of his own human depravity.

ananias

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in youboth to will and to do of his good pleasure

Is it God will and good pleasure for men to perish if they have not accepted the free gift which is Christ?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:13 PM
That's right. "The (human) heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer.17: 9).

It's not possible for man to (a) come to faith in Christ; and (b) choose Christ UNLESS God, in His mercy and grace, makes it possible for an individual to do so. If anyone thinks his salvation/faith/will was not ALL of God's grace, it means he's unaware of the dpeth of his own human depravity.

ananias

So all that are lost are lost because God has not made it possible for them to come to faith in Christ or choose Christ according to His mercy?

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:44 PM
Let me tell you this.
When I was aged 11 years old I knew the Lord, and became a Christian.Did this just suddenly happen or did you make a decision to believe in Christ?


My mother was not a believer, and my father was an atheist. No matter what I said or did changed anything to persuade them of the truth.So you have some idea of what Jesus was dealing with when He talked to the Pharisees.


When aged 34 years old, God arranged circumstances that drew my mother to church, and she became a believer. Not until the Lord began a work, could my mother believe.
My father was still an atheist. He thought we were potty, and he would not have us speak with him on anything Christian. He would not believe anything spiritual. He said he would only believe what he could see.

Almost 3 years later, at night and in his room, the Lord opened his eyes to seeing demons.
Did he choose to see them? Did he choose to believe that he saw them? No and no.

His heart was pierced, and he was a changed man. He was sold out for Christ, and a most humble loving man until he passed on four years later.Look, no one here is suggesting that one just believes without any intervention from God. Where we disagree is that you think God only intervenes in relatively few people's lives (few are saved - Matt 7:13-14) while I believe He intervenes in all people's lives, but some refuse to repent and believe no matter what. That's their choice.

Your father believed after seeing demons. Well, don't forget that many saw the miracles of Jesus with their own eyes and still did not believe. It's still a choice people have to make regardless of the circumstances. Many were convinced by Christ's miracles and they believed and many were not convinced and did not believe. That is because it's a choice.

John 10
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Many had a hard time believing His words, so Jesus said that they should believe because of the things He did such as His miracles and so on because the things He did reflected the character of God the Father. They had no excuse for not believing. Jesus couldn't have done any more to convince them. Yet many didn't believe because He did not fit their false idea of who the Messiah should be.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:51 PM
Do we not have a choice wether or not we accept the free gift?

People still go to hell because they have not accepted Christ don't they?

Did they therefore not have a choice?

FirstfruitsThey do have a choice. Here's one way to look at it. It says in John 3:18 that people are condemned for not believing in Christ.

Now, does it fit with scripture's definition of God's character that He would make it so that most people would be condemned for doing something that He never gave them the ability to do? I don't believe so.

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:49 PM
So all that are lost are lost because God has not made it possible for them to come to faith in Christ or choose Christ according to His mercy?

Firstfruits

No. Those that are lost are lost because they do not choose (will) to freely receive (accept) the free gift in the day God makes it possible for them to believe and repent:

"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness, when your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years." (Heb.3: 7-9)

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:56 PM
Do we not have a choice wether or not we accept the free gift?

People still go to hell because they have not accepted Christ don't they?

Did they therefore not have a choice?

Is it God will and good pleasure for men to perish if they have not accepted the free gift which is Christ?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits

Let me answer from my own personal experiience:

God had to first quicken my heart so that I could "hear His voice", and once He had done this, then I could choose (will) to drink of the water of Life freely (at no cost).

No, it is not God's will or pleasure for anyone to perish. But everyone would perish unless God first made it possible for men to believe.

ananias

Partaker of Christ
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:27 PM
Let me ask a different way (I will try)

If we say it is a matter of free will choice (I say it is a matter of believing in the heart), what of the many who believe that they are Christian, but are not?

They have made a choice to be Christian. They go to church on Sundays, and they help in the church. They read their bibles, and say their prayers. They give their offerings and tithes.
Some of them even go on to bible college, and become ministers. Some may prophesy and cast out demons in His name, and do many wonderful works.

Then cometh the day when the Lord says 'I never knew you'
Are they going to be able to argue about 'free will choice'?

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:29 PM
They do have a choice. Here's one way to look at it. It says in John 3:18 that people are condemned for not believing in Christ.

Now, does it fit with scripture's definition of God's character that He would make it so that most people would be condemned for doing something that He never gave them the ability to do? I don't believe so.

I agree,

God bless you!!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:36 PM
No. Those that are lost are lost because they do not choose (will) to freely receive (accept) the free gift in the day God makes it possible for them to believe and repent:

"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness, when your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years." (Heb.3: 7-9)

So they are lost because of their own free will, right?

They harden their hearts.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:43 PM
Let me answer from my own personal experiience:

God had to first quicken my heart so that I could "hear His voice", and once He had done this, then I could choose (will) to drink of the water of Life freely (at no cost).

No, it is not God's will or pleasure for anyone to perish. But everyone would perish unless God first made it possible for men to believe.

ananias

Is it not the same message that is given and that we either accept/believe it to be true or not, by which we are saved?

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You either believe or you do not believe.

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:54 PM
Let me ask a different way (I will try)

If we say it is a matter of free will choice (I say it is a matter of believing in the heart), what of the many who believe that they are Christian, but are not?

They have made a choice to be Christian. They go to church on Sundays, and they help in the church. They read their bibles, and say their prayers. They give their offerings and tithes.
Some of them even go on to bible college, and become ministers. Some may prophesy and cast out demons in His name, and do many wonderful works.

Then cometh the day when the Lord says 'I never knew you'
Are they going to be able to argue about 'free will choice'?


As I can speak from experience, its possible to miss salvation by about 6-8 inches (the distance from the heart to the head). Simply uttering it to be true doesn't save, it takes faith. Sitting in a church, and reading the bible do little for you until you have faith.

Emanate
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:58 PM
Let me ask a different way (I will try)

If we say it is a matter of free will choice (I say it is a matter of believing in the heart), what of the many who believe that they are Christian, but are not?

They have made a choice to be Christian. They go to church on Sundays, and they help in the church. They read their bibles, and say their prayers. They give their offerings and tithes.
Some of them even go on to bible college, and become ministers. Some may prophesy and cast out demons in His name, and do many wonderful works.

Then cometh the day when the Lord says 'I never knew you'
Are they going to be able to argue about 'free will choice'?


So you are suggesting that no one can be sure of their Salvation until that day? That is very scary. I hope I win that lottery.

ananias
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ananias http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1836273#post1836273)
No. Those that are lost are lost because they do not choose (will) to freely receive (accept) the free gift in the day God makes it possible for them to believe and repent:

"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness, when your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years." (Heb.3: 7-9)



So they are lost because of their own free will, right?

They harden their hearts.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

Thanks. God bless you too :)
ananias

Partaker of Christ
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:22 PM
Did this just suddenly happen or did you make a decision to believe in Christ?

Suddenly.

I had no Christian background. None of my family or friends or neighbours (that I knew) were Christian. I had no church background. The only thing I knew about Jesus was Christmas and Easter.

I was not (to the best of my knowledge) even seeking. The only thing I remember was this big old church that I use to pass each day, when walking to and from school. I guess I was in awe of the building, and after many days, I decided to have a look inside. The door was open, but it seemed that no one was there. Not far from the door, was a section of free books. I found a small Johns Gospel, and it felt like I found gold. Right then I was consumed with light, and I was filled with love.
I don't know how I knew, but I knew it was the Lord.

Without any prompting from others, I went and found a church. I went by myself to Sunday school, and Sunday evenings. I went to every meeting I could get to. I saved my pocket money, and bought a bible.
From that very day and for last 46 years, I have always believed in Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.


So you have some idea of what Jesus was dealing with when He talked to the Pharisees.

Look, no one here is suggesting that one just believes without any intervention from God. Where we disagree is that you think God only intervenes in relatively few people's lives (few are saved - Matt 7:13-14) while I believe He intervenes in all people's lives, but some refuse to repent and believe no matter what. That's their choice.

I think no such thing?

God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh.
The problem is not the Sower or the seed. The problem is the condition of the ground that is sown with the seed.

Again I say It is not about choice, but believing in the heart. It is not that some reject the gift of God, but that many do not believe they are sick. Or that they believe in some other god. Many Jews thought that believing on Christ was an act of apostasy.


Your father believed after seeing demons. Well, don't forget that many saw the miracles of Jesus with their own eyes and still did not believe. It's still a choice people have to make regardless of the circumstances. Many were convinced by Christ's miracles and they believed and many were not convinced and did not believe. That is because it's a choice.

John 10
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

We who do believe, do believe 'BECAUSE' ('BECAUSE@') we are His sheep, and we know His voice.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
John 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Can the goat, choose to be a sheep?
Can the deaf, choose to hear?
Can the blind, choose to see?

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


Many had a hard time believing His words, so Jesus said that they should believe because of the things He did such as His miracles and so on because the things He did reflected the character of God the Father. They had no excuse for not believing. Jesus couldn't have done any more to convince them. Yet many didn't believe because He did not fit their false idea of who the Messiah should be.

This was a problem. It was not firstly that they could not believe 'in Christ', but that they could not disbelieve what they did believe. They could not serve two masters, so they would have had to cast the old master away. The veil still covered their eyes, and they could not see.

The Gospel was not 'foolishness' to the Jews, but a stumbling block.

I know that this may be a very poor way to describe it, but just as we will not believe in anti-Christ (no matter what the signs and wonders) They could not (forgive me) believe in (perhaps in their eyes) a kind of anti Moses and the law and prophets.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:38 PM
Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. This has to do with the gospel going out to the Gentiles. Yes, they were not seeking God. They were finding pleasure in their own gods and idols. But God graciously brought the gospel to them. This doesn't mean that they didn't have to choose to believe in it or not. Look at the next verse:

Rom 10:21
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Why would God continue to reach out to these disobedient people in Israel if they didn't have any ability to respond with repentance and faith? Some of them did respond with repentance and faith while many did not.

How do you reconcile the following passage with your view?

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. Read this again and pay particular attention to verse 15. Notice that they closed their own eyes! As far as verse 17, that only has to do with the fact that many OT prophets and righteous men hoped to be alive when the Messiah came but they didn't get to experience that privilege as those who Christ was speaking to did.


Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. Read Romans 11:32. God concluded all in unbelief so that he can have mercy upon all. There wasn't anything man could do to receive mercy. Christ had to die on the cross in order for mercy, forgiveness and salvation to be possible. It is by God's grace that man can receive mercy. But scripture is clear that one must willingly repent and believe in order to receive mercy and salvation.


Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luk 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. The wise and prudent are those who are wise in their own eyes. They have worldly wisdom, but that is foolishness to God. Christ reveals the Father to those who believe in Him.


Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. This passage supports my view. Paul is praying for His fellow Israelites so that they might be saved. If he thought that they were already predetermined to be saved, there would have been no point in him praying for them to be saved. Your position makes praying for people's salvation seem rather pointless.


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. AmenGod concluded them all in unbelief THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL. Did you miss that part? If one abides not in unbelief they can be grafted back in. God didn't make it so that those who were cut off could never believe and be grafted in.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

It's their choice to believe and be grafted in or not. God gave them over to spiritual blindness for the benefit of the Gentiles. The Gentile believers were allowed to be grafted in so that they, in turn, would then provoke the Israelites to jealousy in order that they would want to be grafted back in to the olive tree. In order to be grafted in to the olive tree God requires one to have faith. That opportunity is available to all.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:42 PM
So you are suggesting that no one can be sure of their Salvation until that day? That is very scary. I hope I win that lottery.

No..........

Do you believe with your heart (or your head)
Do you have the Spirit in you?
Do you love the brethren?
Do you hate the world?

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:46 PM
Let me ask a different way (I will try)

If we say it is a matter of free will choice (I say it is a matter of believing in the heart), what of the many who believe that they are Christian, but are not?

They have made a choice to be Christian. They go to church on Sundays, and they help in the church. They read their bibles, and say their prayers. They give their offerings and tithes.
Some of them even go on to bible college, and become ministers. Some may prophesy and cast out demons in His name, and do many wonderful works.

Then cometh the day when the Lord says 'I never knew you'
Are they going to be able to argue about 'free will choice'?I'm not sure I see your point here. They will not be able to argue that they didn't know that the Bible teaches that people are expected to repent, deny themselves and give their lives to Christ in order to be saved. Nowhere does scripture teach that doing all those things you listed will save anyone. They would not be able to plead ignorance. They would not have any excuse for thinking that their works could save them when scripture clearly teaches that we are not saved by works.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:58 PM
Suddenly.

I had no Christian background. None of my family or friends or neighbours (that I knew) were Christian. I had no church background. The only thing I knew about Jesus was Christmas and Easter.

I was not (to the best of my knowledge) even seeking. The only thing I remember was this big old church that I use to pass each day, when walking to and from school. I guess I was in awe of the building, and after many days, I decided to have a look inside. The door was open, but it seemed that no one was there. Not far from the door, was a section of free books. I found a small Johns Gospel, and it felt like I found gold. Right then I was consumed with light, and I was filled with love.
I don't know how I knew, but I knew it was the Lord.

Without any prompting from others, I went and found a church. I went by myself to Sunday school, and Sunday evenings. I went to every meeting I could get to. I saved my pocket money, and bought a bible.
From that very day and for last 46 years, I have always believed in Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.Before you went to that church, did you ever think about whether or not there was a God and whether or not there was more besides just this temporary life?


I think no such thing?

God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh.
The problem is not the Sower or the seed. The problem is the condition of the ground that is sown with the seed.

Again I say It is not about choice, but believing in the heart. It is not that some reject the gift of God, but that many do not believe they are sick. Or that they believe in some other god. Many Jews thought that believing on Christ was an act of apostasy. I believe it is about a choice of believing in the heart or not.


We who do believe, do believe 'BECAUSE' we are His sheep, and we know His voice.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
John 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Can the goat, choose to be a sheep?
Can the deaf, choose to hear?
Can the blind, choose to see?

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. You don't seem to be taking into account that Jesus is God and therefore had foreknowledge of who would believe in Him and who wouldn't. The following passage shows that those who did not believe in Him could have but they willingly chose not to:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

They closed their own eyes to the truth:

Matthew 13
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

They chose to resist the Holy Spirit due to their stubborn refusal to repent and believe:

Acts 7
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


This was a problem. It was not firstly that they could not believe 'in Christ', but that they could not disbelieve what they did believe. They could not serve two masters, so they would have had to cast the old master away. The veil still covered their eyes, and they could not see.

The Gospel was not 'foolishness' to the Jews, but a stumbling block.

I know that this may be a very poor way to describe it, but just as we will not believe in anti-Christ (no matter what the signs and wonders) They could not (forgive me) believe in (perhaps in their eyes) a kind of anti Moses and the law and prophets.They could have believed, as I showed above, but they chose not to. They willingly chose to harden their own hearts, stop their own ears and close their own eyes to the truth.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:42 PM
This has to do with the gospel going out to the Gentiles. Yes, they were not seeking God. They were finding pleasure in their own gods and idols. But God graciously brought the gospel to them. This doesn't mean that they didn't have to choose to believe in it or not. Look at the next verse:

It is with the heart (not the head) that one believes unto salvation. For the heart to believe, it has to be pierced. The gospel has to be preached with power, not clever convincing words.


Rom 10:21
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Why would God continue to reach out to these disobedient people in Israel if they didn't have any ability to respond with repentance and faith? Some of them did respond with repentance and faith while many did not.

How do you reconcile the following passage with your view?

You answered this yourself: Some of them did believe.


Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Read this again and pay particular attention to verse 15. Notice that they closed their own eyes! As far as verse 17, that only has to do with the fact that many OT prophets and righteous men hoped to be alive when the Messiah came but they didn't get to experience that privilege as those who Christ was speaking to did.

Please refrain from being condescending.
I have prayerfully read that particular verse many times.


Read Romans 11:32. God concluded all in unbelief so that he can have mercy upon all. There wasn't anything man could do to receive mercy. Christ had to die on the cross in order for mercy, forgiveness and salvation to be possible. It is by God's grace that man can receive mercy. But scripture is clear that one must willingly repent and believe in order to receive mercy and salvation.

I am right with you until the underlined.

One cannot 'truly' repent, if they do not believe. They have to believe with their heart. If they do not believe with their hearts, then they still have other gods. These other gods have blinded their eyes from seeing. It is not a choice, they remain in their darkness.

The beginging of repentance, is to 'first' turn away 'from', from all their other gods, who are no gods at all.


The wise and prudent are those who are wise in their own eyes. They have worldly wisdom, but that is foolishness to God. Christ reveals the Father to those who believe in Him.

This passage supports my view. Paul is praying for His fellow Israelites so that they might be saved. If he thought that they were already predetermined to be saved, there would have been no point in him praying for them to be saved. Your position makes praying for people's salvation seem rather pointless.

:eek:
Am I the one to judge who will ascend, and who will descend?


God concluded them all in unbelief THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL. Did you miss that part? If one abides not in unbelief they can be grafted back in. God didn't make it so that those who were cut off could never believe and be grafted in.

No, I did not miss that part.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

It's their choice to believe and be grafted in or not. God gave them over to spiritual blindness for the benefit of the Gentiles. The Gentile believers were allowed to be grafted in so that they, in turn, would then provoke the Israelites to jealousy in order that they would want to be grafted back in to the olive tree. In order to be grafted in to the olive tree God requires one to have faith. That opportunity is available to all.

Apart from the 'choice' thing, I don't disagree at all.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:51 PM
It is with the heart (not the head) that one believes unto salvation. For the heart to believe, it has to be pierced. The gospel has to be preached with power, not clever convincing words.Agree


You answered this yourself: Some of them did believe.But my point was that the ones who didn't, which Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23:37-38, could have also believed but they chose not to.


Please refrain from being condescending.I was not being condescending. I was pointing out a particular verse so that you could see my point clearly.

I have prayerfully read that particular verse many times.I didn't say or imply otherwise.


I am right with you until the underlined.

One cannot 'truly' repent, if they do not believe. They have to believe with their heart. If they do not believe with their hearts, then they still have other gods. These other gods have blinded their eyes from seeing. It is not a choice, they remain in their darkness.They choose to remain in darkness by following after false gods.


The beginging of repentance, is to 'first' turn away 'from', from all their other gods, who are no gods at all.Right


Am I the one to judge who will ascend, and who will descend?You missed the point. Do you believe that if you pray for one's salvation that it can help make a difference in that person being saved? Paul seemed to think so.


Apart from the 'choice' thing, I don't disagree at all.Do you believe that God condemns people for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) despite supposedly not ever having any ability to choose to believe in Christ?

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:00 AM
The Holy spirit convicts us of sin according to the message of the gospel, however not everyone that hears the gospel wants their sin reproved.

Jn 16:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jn 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Acts 7:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Rom 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

To resist means to: stand one's ground, stand firm, withstand.

The opposite = submit

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Whosoever submits to the Holy Ghost let him take the water of life/Christ.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:07 PM
Good points. In my mind ineffectual is any repentance which does not turn and cling to God. Here's a perfect example. When I was a Freshman in college, i had a lot of unsaved floor mates. Some were catholic, lutheran, etc. but this describes most of them.

One day, I heard a bunch of them come in and talking all happy about how they had gone to Confession. How now they can go out that night. I remember asking one of them once, and I don't even recall why I did, but I asked one, so what are you going to do tonight? The answer was a list of sins, getting drunk, having intercourse etc.

I then asked that person, is that not what you just went to confession for, to admit that those things were wrong. The person stumbled in her words before I continued. I told her "your confession is meaningless if you don't turn from your sin and cling to truth, and that truth being Christ on the cross". Can you believe the response I got? "We are just trying to have fun." I reminded her that sin can seem enjoyable for a time, but every sin has its consequence whether eternal or in this life. She walked away from me at that point, and from that day forward the people in that one group ceased to flaunt their sin before me for at most a couple of weeks.

The carnal mind is enmity to God, the only prayer God hears is a prayer of repentance from a contrite heart, and for it to be true repentance they must then turn to God, not go back to the wicked thing they once did.

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:08 PM
Good points. In my mind ineffectual is any repentance which does not turn and cling to God. Here's a perfect example. When I was a Freshman in college, i had a lot of unsaved floor mates. Some were catholic, lutheran, etc. but this describes most of them.

One day, I heard a bunch of them come in and talking all happy about how they had gone to Confession. How now they can go out that night. I remember asking one of them once, and I don't even recall why I did, but I asked one, so what are you going to do tonight? The answer was a list of sins, getting drunk, having intercourse etc.

I then asked that person, is that not what you just went to confession for, to admit that those things were wrong. The person stumbled in her words before I continued. I told her "your confession is meaningless if you don't turn from your sin and cling to truth, and that truth being Christ on the cross". Can you believe the response I got? "We are just trying to have fun." I reminded her that sin can seem enjoyable for a time, but every sin has its consequence whether eternal or in this life. She walked away from me at that point, and from that day forward the people in that one group ceased to flaunt their sin before me for at most a couple of weeks.

The carnal mind is enmity to God, the only prayer God hears is a prayer of repentance from a contrite heart, and for it to be true repentance they must then turn to God, not go back to the wicked thing they once did.

Thank you Veretax,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 07:56 PM
The Holy spirit convicts us of sin according to the message of the gospel, however not everyone that hears the gospel wants their sin reproved.

Jn 16:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jn 3:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Acts 7:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Rom 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

To resist means to: stand one's ground, stand firm, withstand.

The opposite = submit

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Whosoever submits to the Holy Ghost let him take the water of life/Christ.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsExactly. People are condemned and held responsible for not believing in Christ. If there was no choice in the matter, how could it possibly be fair to condemn someone to the lake of fire for not doing something (believing in Christ) that they never had any ability to do? God puts all the responsibility on man. Some, whether they realize it or not, want to put the responsibility on God for not giving them the ability to repent and believe. That is not right. Whether we can understand it fully or not, God has given all people the responsibility to choose to repent and believe in Christ or not. If they don't, it is because of their own stubborn refusal to repent and believe and they are condemned for making that choice.

BroRog
Oct 24th 2008, 09:04 PM
Exactly. People are condemned and held responsible for not believing in Christ. If there was no choice in the matter, how could it possibly be fair to condemn someone to the lake of fire for not doing something (believing in Christ) that they never had any ability to do? God puts all the responsibility on man. Some, whether they realize it or not, want to put the responsibility on God for not giving them the ability to repent and believe. That is not right. Whether we can understand it fully or not, God has given all people the responsibility to choose to repent and believe in Christ or not. If they don't, it is because of their own stubborn refusal to repent and believe and they are condemned for making that choice.

John,

What is the point of the Parable of the Sower? What point is Jesus trying to make in that parable?

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 09:40 PM
John,

What is the point of the Parable of the Sower? What point is Jesus trying to make in that parable?Let's take a look.

Matthew 13
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Okay, there is the parable. Let's get some help from Jesus Himself as to what it means.

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

It is about some people hearing the word and then rejecting it for various reasons including being deceived by Satan before understanding what was sown in their hearts, being enthusiastic about it only up to a point and not being willing to go through tribulation or persecution because of it, or letting the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word so that it becomes unfruitful. Those people decide that they love the world more than Christ and the gospel.

This is in contrast with those who hear it and understand it and embrace it to the point where they go on to bear fruit as a result of being born again of the Spirit.

The difference is that some people don't fully accept the gospel and put their faith and trust in Christ. God isn't interested in half-hearted faith. He is looking for people who will fully embrace the gospel and surrender their lives to Christ by putting their complete faith and trust in Him for forgiveness and salvation.

BroRog
Oct 25th 2008, 01:26 AM
Let's take a look.

Matthew 13
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Okay, there is the parable. Let's get some help from Jesus Himself as to what it means.

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

It is about some people hearing the word and then rejecting it for various reasons including being deceived by Satan before understanding what was sown in their hearts, being enthusiastic about it only up to a point and not being willing to go through tribulation or persecution because of it, or letting the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word so that it becomes unfruitful. Those people decide that they love the world more than Christ and the gospel.

This is in contrast with those who hear it and understand it and embrace it to the point where they go on to bear fruit as a result of being born again of the Spirit.

The difference is that some people don't fully accept the gospel and put their faith and trust in Christ. God isn't interested in half-hearted faith. He is looking for people who will fully embrace the gospel and surrender their lives to Christ by putting their complete faith and trust in Him for forgiveness and salvation.

Assuming that the soil condition is indicative of a person's ability to hear and affirm the truth, and to persevere in faith, who in the parable is responsible for the soil condition?

Firstfruits
Oct 25th 2008, 09:50 AM
Exactly. People are condemned and held responsible for not believing in Christ. If there was no choice in the matter, how could it possibly be fair to condemn someone to the lake of fire for not doing something (believing in Christ) that they never had any ability to do? God puts all the responsibility on man. Some, whether they realize it or not, want to put the responsibility on God for not giving them the ability to repent and believe. That is not right. Whether we can understand it fully or not, God has given all people the responsibility to choose to repent and believe in Christ or not. If they don't, it is because of their own stubborn refusal to repent and believe and they are condemned for making that choice.

As it is written not all will submit.

Rom 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. :(

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 25th 2008, 09:54 AM
Let's take a look.

Matthew 13
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Okay, there is the parable. Let's get some help from Jesus Himself as to what it means.

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

It is about some people hearing the word and then rejecting it for various reasons including being deceived by Satan before understanding what was sown in their hearts, being enthusiastic about it only up to a point and not being willing to go through tribulation or persecution because of it, or letting the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word so that it becomes unfruitful. Those people decide that they love the world more than Christ and the gospel.

This is in contrast with those who hear it and understand it and embrace it to the point where they go on to bear fruit as a result of being born again of the Spirit.

The difference is that some people don't fully accept the gospel and put their faith and trust in Christ. God isn't interested in half-hearted faith. He is looking for people who will fully embrace the gospel and surrender their lives to Christ by putting their complete faith and trust in Him for forgiveness and salvation.

Amen!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 25th 2008, 10:17 AM
Assuming that the soil condition is indicative of a person's ability to hear and affirm the truth, and to persevere in faith, who in the parable is responsible for the soil condition?

Here is the parable being fulfilled, as it still is today.

Acts 2:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
Acts 2:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Not all will accept the truth of the gospel.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 04:00 PM
Assuming that the soil condition is indicative of a person's ability to hear and affirm the truth, and to persevere in faith, who in the parable is responsible for the soil condition?I believe you are making a wrong assumption that the soil condition is indicative of a person's ability or inability to hear and affirm the truth if you are speaking in terms of the ability (or lack thereof) that God gave them to hear and affirm the truth or not. Instead, I believe it is indicative of a person's level of willingness in their heart to respond favorably to the truth that they hear. Clearly, the person who responds only half-heartedly is very unlikely to maintain their faith. Jesus is looking for people to completely surrender themselves to Him.

What is the cause of people being deceived by Satan? God made them that way so that they coudn't help it? No. The people themselves are responsible for allowing it to happen. What is the cause of people not being willing to go through tribulation or persecution of the cause of the gospel? God makes them that way? No, they are responsible for deciding that Christ and His gospel is not worth going through any hardship for. Who is responsible for people getting caught up in the cares of this world and the riches of this world to the point where they think they have no need for Christ? God makes them that way so that they can't help it? No, they are responsible for making that choice.

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 04:02 PM
As it is written not all will submit.

Rom 13:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. :(

God bless you!

Firstfruits
Yes, exactly. This puts all of the responsibility on man for being damned and condemned because of their decision to resist God. People who believe in limited atonement put the responsibility on God instead because they say it is God who supposedly does not give some the ability to submit and put their faith and trust in Christ.

Firstfruits
Oct 30th 2008, 04:10 PM
Yes, exactly. This puts all of the responsibility on man for being damned and condemned because of their decision to resist God. People who believe in limited atonement put the responsibility on God instead because they say it is God who supposedly does not give some the ability to submit and put their faith and trust in Christ.

If we cannot resist the power of God then it means that we have no Choice but to go to heaven when we die, or if God chooses, hell.

I know what I choose, oops!!!! forgot, there is no chloice. :help::help::help:

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 30th 2008, 04:19 PM
If we cannot resist the power of God then it means that we have no Choice but to go to heaven when we die, or if God chooses, hell.

I know what I choose, oops!!!! forgot, there is no chloice. :help::help::help:

God bless you!

Firstfruits


For those who may only be reading, what Firstfruits just iterated is in essence what some call 'double pre-destination'. That God chose who would receive eternal life, and also chose who would be damned.

Its like if I line up five kids, mary, sue, jill, jack, and andy. It would be like God determined, Mary will i save, sue, will I condemn to hell, Jack shall be saved, and andy and jill shall I condemn as well.

If this is true, then it means we had no choice to come to God, it means that which we due is so absolutely guided by God that even when we are not yet believers, we are controlled by God. There are problems with this thinking, because if you carry it further, you would in fact be saying God ordered me to Sin, and that just can't be true.

Friend of I AM
Oct 30th 2008, 06:56 PM
What is the cause of people not being willing to go through tribulation or persecution of the cause of the gospel? God makes them that way? No, they are responsible for deciding that Christ and His gospel is not worth going through any hardship for.

To a point they are and to a point they are not. The underlying question here John is how much "choice" does an individual have. Man is not equal to God and fully sovereign unto himself, thus - his choice is indeed limited. God being gracious though, has given man much dominion over this world giving us pretty much the impression that we can do anything we want to...even though man is still limited to being under God's control.

Here is a practical example to illustrate where I'm getting at. Man is limited to the laws of time and space that God has imposed upon him. He has no ability to change these laws based on the choices God has given him in life. Thus, most men are subject to having to eat, drink, breath, and the various natural laws that surround them.

Now we can add an extra dimension to this though. That dimension being about one having enough faith in God to be able to do break these natural laws. Even with this extra dimension added to the discussion, one still wouldn't be able to state that they themselves are the one's doing everything, as God is only enabling them to do it through their faith in him.

So we are indeed in complete submission to the Truth..and really can't do anything against it unless God himself has willed us or allowed us to act against himself in some form.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Oct 30th 2008, 07:48 PM
For those who may only be reading, what Firstfruits just iterated is in essence what some call 'double pre-destination'. That God chose who would receive eternal life, and also chose who would be damned.

Its like if I line up five kids, mary, sue, jill, jack, and andy. It would be like God determined, Mary will i save, sue, will I condemn to hell, Jack shall be saved, and andy and jill shall I condemn as well.

If this is true, then it means we had no choice to come to God, it means that which we due is so absolutely guided by God that even when we are not yet believers, we are controlled by God. There are problems with this thinking, because if you carry it further, you would in fact be saying God ordered me to Sin, and that just can't be true.

Thanks Veretax,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 30th 2008, 07:56 PM
To a point they are and to a point they are not. The underlying question here John is how much "choice" does an individual have. Man is not equal to God and fully sovereign unto himself, thus - his choice is indeed limited. God being gracious though, has given man much dominion over this world giving us pretty much the impression that we can do anything we want to...even though man is still limited to being under God's control.

Here is a practical example to illustrate where I'm getting at. Man is limited to the laws of time and space that God has imposed upon him. He has no ability to change these laws based on the choices God has given him in life. Thus, most men are subject to having to eat, drink, breath, and the various natural laws that surround them.

Now we can add an extra dimension to this though. That dimension being about one having enough faith in God to be able to do break these natural laws. Even with this extra dimension added to the discussion, one still wouldn't be able to state that they themselves are the one's doing everything, as God is only enabling them to do it through their faith in him.

So we are indeed in complete submission to the Truth..and really can't do anything against it unless God himself has willed us or allowed us to act against himself in some form.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

Did God give Adam and Eve the choice of eating the tree of knowledge by giving them the option of life or death?

Gen 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did God make them sin or did they choose to eat because they yielded to temptation and disobeyed the will of God?

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 08:02 PM
To a point they are and to a point they are not. The underlying question here John is how much "choice" does an individual have. Man is not equal to God and fully sovereign unto himself, thus - his choice is indeed limited. God being gracious though, has given man much dominion over this world giving us pretty much the impression that we can do anything we want to...even though man is still limited to being under God's control.

Here is a practical example to illustrate where I'm getting at. Man is limited to the laws of time and space that God has imposed upon him. He has no ability to change these laws based on the choices God has given him in life. Thus, most men are subject to having to eat, drink, breath, and the various natural laws that surround them.

Now we can add an extra dimension to this though. That dimension being about one having enough faith in God to be able to do break these natural laws. Even with this extra dimension added to the discussion, one still wouldn't be able to state that they themselves are the one's doing everything, as God is only enabling them to do it through their faith in him.

So we are indeed in complete submission to the Truth..and really can't do anything against it unless God himself has willed us or allowed us to act against himself in some form.

In Christian Love,

StephenSorry, I can't quite tell what your point is. No one is trying to claim that we have total control over everything. You realize that, right? I understand that many things are out of our control. But that's not really what we're talking about in this thread. The issue I'm talking about is basically whether man has any say in whether to reject or accept the gospel. Do you believe that we have no choice in the matter when it comes to believing in Christ or not?

Friend of I AM
Oct 30th 2008, 09:36 PM
Hey John,

Thanks for your input. Let me clarify a bit more what is meant. By his grace we are willed to make the right choices in life that will bring us to and through the narrow path. Remember a man's steps are ordained by the Lord, so a man truly can't find his own way to God.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

RogerW
Oct 30th 2008, 10:47 PM
Sorry, I can't quite tell what your point is. No one is trying to claim that we have total control over everything. You realize that, right? I understand that many things are out of our control. But that's not really what we're talking about in this thread. The issue I'm talking about is basically whether man has any say in whether to reject or accept the gospel. Do you believe that we have no choice in the matter when it comes to believing in Christ or not?

Hi Eric,

I would agree that many men reject the gospel message, but salvation is NOT offered, only the message is offered. Salvation is GIVEN to all who believe the message. And the only ones who will believe are those to whom the Lord enables. It's important to make a distinction between the message of the cross, that goes unto all the world, and the saving effect of the message unto all who can hear and believe.

Many Blessings,
RW

Matt14
Oct 30th 2008, 11:07 PM
Hi Eric,

I would agree that many men reject the gospel message, but salvation is NOT offered, only the message is offered. Salvation is GIVEN to all who believe the message. And the only ones who will believe are those to whom the Lord enables. It's important to make a distinction between the message of the cross, that goes unto all the world, and the saving effect of the message unto all who can hear and believe.

Many Blessings,
RW

Ah yes, I remember this argument. It's like holding a sucker out in front of ten toddlers, and talking about how sweet and nice it is, and then giving a sucker to four and telling the other six to get lost.

Sorry Roger, I do not see this in scripture. This is not the God of the Bible.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 30th 2008, 11:15 PM
Did God give Adam and Eve the choice of eating the tree of knowledge by giving them the option of life or death?

Gen 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did God make them sin or did they choose to eat because they yielded to temptation and disobeyed the will of God?

Firstfruits





Adam sinned, but Eve was deceived.

The problem in comparing the gift of choice that God gave Adam, and the choices that we make today is, that Adam had a pure [clean] heart.
Our choices today, are governed by a sick and sinful heart. Unless God works on us, and in our heart, and puts something in there to draw us to the truth, then there is absolutely no way we will come to Him.

As for saying that God gave Adam a choice, to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is just not true. God said 'do not eat from', That is not a choice, but a command. He did not say 'well Adam, its up to you, I have given you the gift of free will choice to take your pick.

RogerW
Oct 31st 2008, 12:15 AM
Ah yes, I remember this argument. It's like holding a sucker out in front of ten toddlers, and talking about how sweet and nice it is, and then giving a sucker to four and telling the other six to get lost.

Sorry Roger, I do not see this in scripture. This is not the God of the Bible.

Well Matt, I can only assume this is because you are reading your theology into the Holy Scriptures. I think your doctrine goes something like this: God wants to save every human, but He will not interfere with the will of man, so He will beg, and plead, and ring His hands, waiting and hoping that man will come to Him for life. All the time doing all He can to save them, but refusing to impose His will upon them so that they can live with Him forever, naw, He'll just sit by and let them perish because they were not willing.

Sorry Matt, I do not see this in Scripture. This is not the God of the Bible!

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Oct 31st 2008, 12:19 AM
Adam sinned, but Eve was deceived.

The problem in comparing the gift of choice that God gave Adam, and the choices that we make today is, that Adam had a pure [clean] heart.
Our choices today, are governed by a sick and sinful heart. Unless God works on us, and in our heart, and puts something in there to draw us to the truth, then there is absolutely no way we will come to Him.

As for saying that God gave Adam a choice, to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is just not true. God said 'do not eat from', That is not a choice, but a command. He did not say 'well Adam, its up to you, I have given you the gift of free will choice to take your pick.

Ridiculous! If Adam had no choice, why did he eat the fruit after eve offered it to him? He clearly had a choice, it was the wrong choice and against God's commandment, but that's what made it Sin. Without sin there could not have been Free Will IMHO.

Alaska
Oct 31st 2008, 07:31 AM
Gods gift to those that believe is offered freely to those that desire/want it.


Jesus' blood was payment for all of mankind whether they know it or not.
However, only if a person hear of it and accept it along with its terms and conditions can they be benefitted by it.

Firstfruits
Oct 31st 2008, 11:01 AM
Hi Eric,

I would agree that many men reject the gospel message, but salvation is NOT offered, only the message is offered. Salvation is GIVEN to all who believe the message. And the only ones who will believe are those to whom the Lord enables. It's important to make a distinction between the message of the cross, that goes unto all the world, and the saving effect of the message unto all who can hear and believe.

Many Blessings,
RW

What is the message of the gospel, is it not the salvation that is offered to all who believe?

Rom 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Rom 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

What is the gospel message that is offered?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 31st 2008, 11:06 AM
Jesus' blood was payment for all of mankind whether they know it or not.
However, only if a person hear of it and accept it along with its terms and conditions can they be benefitted by it.

Thank you Alaska,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 31st 2008, 11:10 AM
Adam sinned, but Eve was deceived.

The problem in comparing the gift of choice that God gave Adam, and the choices that we make today is, that Adam had a pure [clean] heart.
Our choices today, are governed by a sick and sinful heart. Unless God works on us, and in our heart, and puts something in there to draw us to the truth, then there is absolutely no way we will come to Him.

As for saying that God gave Adam a choice, to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is just not true. God said 'do not eat from', That is not a choice, but a command. He did not say 'well Adam, its up to you, I have given you the gift of free will choice to take your pick.

Did they both choose to do that which was against the will of God, causing them to sin?

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 31st 2008, 03:46 PM
Ah yes, I remember this argument. It's like holding a sucker out in front of ten toddlers, and talking about how sweet and nice it is, and then giving a sucker to four and telling the other six to get lost.

Sorry Roger, I do not see this in scripture. This is not the God of the Bible.Exactly. When the prison keeper asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved they didn't say "There is nothing you can do to be saved. God does it all. You have to just wait and see if you are lucky enough to be one of the chosen or not.". No, they said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31). Paul and Silas didn't have foreknowledge like God does so they didn't know if those people in that household would believe or not. This shows that they knew that all people had the ability to believe in Christ because they would have answered the question the same way to anyone who asked.

The message for all people is that they can be saved if they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Saying that to someone who supposedly has no ability to believe in Christ would be a lie.

Friend of I AM
Oct 31st 2008, 04:09 PM
Did God make them sin or did they choose to eat because they yielded to temptation and disobeyed the will of God?

Firstfruits





I'm going to answer that question with a question. Was the choice that Adam made outside of the will/knowledge/sovereignty of God?

The answer is a simple no. Now the difficult part for most of us to ascertain is why God allowed Adam to make the poor choice that he did. This is the part where we can speculate somewhat on. Scripture leads us in the direction of thinking that God may have bound all men to disobedience for the purpose of demonstrating his total righteousnous above all men, as well as demonstrating the depths of his love/mercy on mankind.

Thus, as Jesus stated - we need God to lead us out of temptation..and deliver us from evil in making those crucial choices in our lives. This is the distinct reason as to why Jesus made the statement "if it be of your will" when inquiring something of the Father.

Many times our own choices may indeed lead us in the direction of thinking that we've done what is pleasing in God's sight, when in actuality we've gone on the wrong course. Think of David taking a census of Israel, or when King Saul decided to consult the witch of Endor. If we bind ourselves by what we perceive to be our own abilities and knowledge when making those crucial decisions in life, then we risk the possibility of being lead astray in our walks.

RogerW
Oct 31st 2008, 04:17 PM
What is the message of the gospel, is it not the salvation that is offered to all who believe?

Rom 10:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Rom 10:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

What is the gospel message that is offered?

Firstfruits

Greetings Firstfruits,

The message is how we become saved; i.e. "hearing" through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Everyone hears the message, but only those "hearing" His voice become saved. The message goes unto all mankind, and those who "hear" with Spiritual hearing through the message of the Cross, applied through the power of the Holy Spirit are GIVEN...not offered...ETERNAL LIFE! They alone "shall hear" and live, and no others.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Oct 31st 2008, 04:38 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

The message is how we become saved; i.e. "hearing" through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Everyone hears the message, but only those "hearing" His voice become saved. The message goes unto all mankind, and those who "hear" with Spiritual hearing through the message of the Cross, applied through the power of the Holy Spirit are GIVEN...not offered...ETERNAL LIFE! They alone "shall hear" and live, and no others.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Many Blessings,
RWYou're promoting a doctrine that suggests that people can just sit around and see whether or not they will be given eternal life as if it's some kind of lottery. People just need the lucky winning ticket. Don't you believe people have to repent and believe first before they are saved and given eternal life? You act as if God gives man no responsibility to do anything, yet scripture clearly teaches otherwise.

Regarding John 10, you have missed some of the context. You would try to say that those who are not His sheep are never given the ability to hear His voice and respond to it. If that was the case, why does He say this:

John 10
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42And many believed on him there.

Jesus was telling these people who were not believing that He was the Son of God that if they would not believe Him by His words then they should believe by the works that they saw Him do, which were the works of the Father. Why would He tell them to believe based on His works if they had no ability to believe in Him? Was He just mocking them by suggesting that they should believe because of what they saw Him do even though they supposedly had no ability to do so? Of course He wouldn't do that. He would not tell people to believe if they couldn't do so. They didn't believe because they would not and not because they could not.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Tell me, what is the reason that you believe people will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day? Please be specific.

Friend of I AM
Nov 1st 2008, 01:59 PM
You're promoting a doctrine that suggests that people can just sit around and see whether or not they will be given eternal life as if it's some kind of lottery. People just need the lucky winning ticket. Don't you believe people have to repent and believe first before they are saved and given eternal life? You act as if God gives man no responsibility to do anything, yet scripture clearly teaches otherwise.


Hey John,

You have made some good points that have much merit to them. Still, I think you're going on the opposite extreme. Remember Jesus also states "You did not choose me but I chose you." So God is indeed involved in assissting us regarding the decision making process. It may not seem like he is at first glance, but as you've demonstrated very well with your testimony throughout this thread God generally doesn't make his presence in our lives very forceful...and gives us many different choices to make within the sovereignty of who he is.

BroRog
Nov 1st 2008, 03:06 PM
I believe you are making a wrong assumption that the soil condition is indicative of a person's ability or inability to hear and affirm the truth if you are speaking in terms of the ability (or lack thereof) that God gave them to hear and affirm the truth or not.

It's not an assumption John. It's a valid conclusion given the premise that the farmer is responsible for the condition of the good soil.

RogerW
Nov 1st 2008, 06:31 PM
You're promoting a doctrine that suggests that people can just sit around and see whether or not they will be given eternal life as if it's some kind of lottery. People just need the lucky winning ticket. Don't you believe people have to repent and believe first before they are saved and given eternal life? You act as if God gives man no responsibility to do anything, yet scripture clearly teaches otherwise.

Beloved Eric,

What can a man do to secure salvation? NOTHING! Salvation is of the Lord. Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can the leopard change his spots? Can a man add one cubit to his stature?

In salvation God works, Christ works and the Holy Spirit works. In sanctification God works, Christ works, the Holy Spirit works, and we work. But we cannot do a single thing to become saved. The moment we try to add just one small merit, then salvation is no longer by grace.

The fact that man has any interest in becoming saved is God drawing him. If God did not first draw, then no man would be interested. When we hear His voice through the proclamation of the Word and the power of the Holy Spirit, it is only because Christ has opened our ears to hear. When we respond in repentance and faith it is only because saving faith has been created in us, a gift of God's grace.

If saving faith originates from within, how can it be said to be "one faith"? It is one faith because it originates from Christ. This faith born in us, clings to Christ alone even in sanctification while working out our salvation with fear and trembling because it is God working in us to both will and do of His good pleasure.



Regarding John 10, you have missed some of the context. You would try to say that those who are not His sheep are never given the ability to hear His voice and respond to it. If that was the case, why does He say this:

John 10
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42And many believed on him there.

Jesus was telling these people who were not believing that He was the Son of God that if they would not believe Him by His words then they should believe by the works that they saw Him do, which were the works of the Father. Why would He tell them to believe based on His works if they had no ability to believe in Him? Was He just mocking them by suggesting that they should believe because of what they saw Him do even though they supposedly had no ability to do so? Of course He wouldn't do that. He would not tell people to believe if they couldn't do so. They didn't believe because they would not and not because they could not.

Christ does not say no man will come to me, but no man can...why? Because they were not drawn by the Father...why? Because they are not His sheep. Only His sheep can hear His voice and come to Him for life.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Christ was upbraiding the pharisees. Even if they could not believe on/in Him as the promised Messiah, they should have believed because of the miracles that He did. Christ is taking them to the heart of the problem for every man born in Adam. None can come to Christ for life unless they are drawn by the Father because they are His sheep.



Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Tell me, what is the reason that you believe people will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day? Please be specific.

Christ is more than willing to save every man. But the truth is that no man will come to Him for life unless He intervenes and makes them willing. We are all born in Adam, just as the nation, and will not be gathered to Him for life until He changes our hearts, and makes us willing.

Those who are cast into the lake of fire in the fullness of time, will be cast there because they died in unbelief without Christ to satisfy the wrath and justice of God. Since they do not have Christ to take away their sins, they will die in their sins, because Christ is the propiation for the sins of the world, and in the fullness of time every sin will be done away. Today is the day of salvation, so if we are not covered by Christ on the cross for our sins, then we, with our sins, will be cast into the lake of fire, when sin will be no more.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 1st 2008, 06:36 PM
Hey John,

You have made some good points that have much merit to them. Still, I think you're going on the opposite extreme. Remember Jesus also states "You did not choose me but I chose you." So God is indeed involved in assissting us regarding the decision making process. It may not seem like he is at first glance, but as you've demonstrated very well with your testimony throughout this thread God generally doesn't make his presence in our lives very forceful...and gives us many different choices to make within the sovereignty of who he is.

Greetings Friend,

If God's grace is not irresistible it is not grace!

Many Blessings,
RW

treasureman
Nov 1st 2008, 06:42 PM
Yes, if you believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ who died on the cross for our sins and ascended into Heaven three days later.

John146
Nov 1st 2008, 11:03 PM
Hey John,

You have made some good points that have much merit to them. Still, I think you're going on the opposite extreme. Remember Jesus also states "You did not choose me but I chose you."That had to do with Him choosing His twelve disciples. Remember, He also chose Judas Iscariot. That statement didn't have anything to do with choosing them to salvation.

John146
Nov 1st 2008, 11:07 PM
Christ is more than willing to save every man. But the truth is that no man will come to Him for life unless He intervenes and makes them willing. We are all born in Adam, just as the nation, and will not be gathered to Him for life until He changes our hearts, and makes us willing.

Those who are cast into the lake of fire in the fullness of time, will be cast there because they died in unbelief without Christ to satisfy the wrath and justice of God. Since they do not have Christ to take away their sins, they will die in their sins, because Christ is the propiation for the sins of the world, and in the fullness of time every sin will be done away. Today is the day of salvation, so if we are not covered by Christ on the cross for our sins, then we, with our sins, will be cast into the lake of fire, when sin will be no more.

Many Blessings,
RWThis does not answer the question as to why Jesus was both angry and saddened by those who rejected Him. He said they were not willing! And you are not willing to acknowledge that they were not willing because they chose to reject Him and it had nothing to do with God not giving them the ability to accept Him. There's no reason for Christ to have been upset with them if they had no ability to accept Him. Christ knew they had the ability to accept Him but chose to reject Him instead and that disappointed Him greatly.

John146
Nov 1st 2008, 11:10 PM
Beloved Eric,

What can a man do to secure salvation? NOTHING! Salvation is of the Lord. Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin? Can the leopard change his spots? Can a man add one cubit to his stature? This is flat out FALSE! You don't accept scripture as it is stated!

It's a good thing that Paul and Silas didn't have your doctrine, otherwise the prison keeper (Acts 16:27-34) would not have known what he had to do to be saved. If it was you, you would have answered him "NOTHING!". But Paul and Silas said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" and that went for anyone is his household as well.

John146
Nov 1st 2008, 11:12 PM
Greetings Friend,

If God's grace is not irrestible it is not grace!

Many Blessings,
RWWhere does scripture say that? If it's irresistible then why did the Pharisees resist it?

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

RogerW
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:34 AM
This does not answer the question as to why Jesus was both angry and saddened by those who rejected Him. He said they were not willing! And you are not willing to acknowledge that they were not willing because they chose to reject Him and it had nothing to do with God not giving them the ability to accept Him. There's no reason for Christ to have been upset with them if they had no ability to accept Him. Christ knew they had the ability to accept Him but chose to reject Him instead and that disappointed Him greatly.

Eric,

They are not willing because their hearts remain in unbelief. No man is willing in unbelief. Every man willingly chooses to reject Christ in unbelief. Should Christ be glad that the heart of every man born in Adam will not choose to come to Him that he/she might have life? Just as God was grieved that He had created mankind when He saw the evil of their hearts, so too, Christ is grieved over the evil of every man's heart before conversion.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:44 AM
This is flat out FALSE! You don't accept scripture as it is stated!

It's a good thing that Paul and Silas didn't have your doctrine, otherwise the prison keeper (Acts 16:27-34) would not have known what he had to do to be saved. If it was you, you would have answered him "NOTHING!". But Paul and Silas said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" and that went for anyone is his household as well.

Eric,

We've gone round and round this verse. If Paul and Silas had simply said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved", and then did not preach the Word to them, how could they believe on whom they had not heard? But Paul and Silas gave them the Word of life, and after hearing he and his house were all baptized. We can tell people to believe on the Lord, but unless they hear the Word of life they cannot believe.

Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Ac 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:03 AM
Where does scripture say that? If it's irresistible then why did the Pharisees resist it?

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Eric,

This is another verse we've gone round and round on. How did their fathers and they resist the Holy Spirit? They refused to hear the prophets of God, and in fact persecuted and killed them. And now they, like their father's before them rejected and killed the long awaited Messiah. When we look at the context we find these were not resisting the Holy Spirit's offering of salvation as you imply.

Ac 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Ac 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Ac 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Ac 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Ac 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ac 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Nov 2nd 2008, 07:39 PM
That had to do with Him choosing His twelve disciples. Remember, He also chose Judas Iscariot. That statement didn't have anything to do with choosing them to salvation.

Interesting interpretation on that verse. Still, I think it is indeed important to remember, that if God is not assisting one entirely in making the right choices that lead them to salvation, it will be very difficult for them to have 100% certainty that they are going in the right direction. Remember Paul states in his epistles that he wants us to be "free from concern" regarding the things of this world/life we currently live in. Hard to do that if we depend completely on ourselves when making important life decisions. He also states that it is no longer he who lives, but it is Christ who now lives through him. To me that sounds like a man who has given up on following his own will, and allowed himself to be in submission to the will of God. What is God's Will for us? That we love him, and that we demonstrate love to one another in our testimonies and within our Christian walks.

God bless,

Stephen

Redimido
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:02 AM
This does not answer the question as to why Jesus was both angry and saddened by those who rejected Him. He said they were not willing! And you are not willing to acknowledge that they were not willing because they chose to reject Him and it had nothing to do with God not giving them the ability to accept Him. There's no reason for Christ to have been upset with them if they had no ability to accept Him. Christ knew they had the ability to accept Him but chose to reject Him instead and that disappointed Him greatly.One of the thing that is confusing this discussion is how we use the term inability.

Gen 37:3-4 Now Israel loved Joseph more than any of his other sons, because he had been born to him in his old age; and he made a richly ornamented robe for him. (4) When his brothers saw that their father loved him more than any of them, they hated him and could not speak a kind word to him.


Joseph’s brother could speak, they had a mouth. But they hated him so much that it prevented them for speak a kind word to him. In the same way man cant love Christ because they hate him so much. So when we who are reformed in our soterialogy talk about man being unable to come to Christ it is because he hates God.

If you lock at the context in Matthew 23 , Jesus has been condemning the Pharisees.

Mat 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

when he talks about Jerusalem he is referring to the pharsis the leaders of Jerusalem. There the ones who are responsible bring people to god and teach them about God but instead they where preventing the people from coming to him. And that why Jesus was angry and saddened. Jesus never said he wanted to gather Pharisees, he said he want to gather those under there care.

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:03 AM
I'm going to answer that question with a question. Was the choice that Adam made outside of the will/knowledge/sovereignty of God?

The answer is a simple no. Now the difficult part for most of us to ascertain is why God allowed Adam to make the poor choice that he did. This is the part where we can speculate somewhat on. Scripture leads us in the direction of thinking that God may have bound all men to disobedience for the purpose of demonstrating his total righteousnous above all men, as well as demonstrating the depths of his love/mercy on mankind.

Thus, as Jesus stated - we need God to lead us out of temptation..and deliver us from evil in making those crucial choices in our lives. This is the distinct reason as to why Jesus made the statement "if it be of your will" when inquiring something of the Father.

Many times our own choices may indeed lead us in the direction of thinking that we've done what is pleasing in God's sight, when in actuality we've gone on the wrong course. Think of David taking a census of Israel, or when King Saul decided to consult the witch of Endor. If we bind ourselves by what we perceive to be our own abilities and knowledge when making those crucial decisions in life, then we risk the possibility of being lead astray in our walks.

If I am understanding you correctly you are agreeing that there are right choices and wrong choices that we make. When it comes to Gods will He tells us what his will is and we therefore choose to do His will or not.

Is my understanding right?

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:21 AM
Greetings Firstfruits,

The message is how we become saved; i.e. "hearing" through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Everyone hears the message, but only those "hearing" His voice become saved. The message goes unto all mankind, and those who "hear" with Spiritual hearing through the message of the Cross, applied through the power of the Holy Spirit are GIVEN...not offered...ETERNAL LIFE! They alone "shall hear" and live, and no others.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Many Blessings,
RW

According to the following it is not that they have not heard the word but that they did not believe what they heard.

Rom 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

This is where the parable of the sower applies, as they heard the word but not all believed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

treasureman
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:12 PM
Profess your belief in Jesus as our Savior who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later into heaven
Invite Jesus into your heart
Ask Jesus to forgive your sins (repentance)
Keep Jesus # one in your life
God Bless,
The Spiritual Treasurerman

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:25 PM
If I am understanding you correctly you are agreeing that there are right choices and wrong choices that we make. When it comes to Gods will He tells us what his will is and we therefore choose to do His will or not.

Is my understanding right?

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

There are no choices made outside of the knowledge, Will, or sovereignty of God. He knows what choice we will make before we make it. As stated before this doesn't mean that we do not have a choice, it does mean that our ability to choose is indeed limited, being that it is under the guidance of our creator even when we make choices that we think are seemingly against him.

God bless,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:41 PM
There are no choices made outside of the knowledge, Will, or sovereignty of God. He knows what choice we will make before we make it. As stated before this doesn't mean that we do not have a choice, it does mean that our ability to choose is indeed limited, being that it is under the guidance of our creator even when we make choices that we think are seemingly against him.

God bless,

Stephen

We know that God knows all things but as you have said God knows what we are going to choose, that will either be to do his will or not to do his will, but all in all it is still a choice.

Are we not all under sin? meaning that we choose to do that which is wrong, and unless we choose otherwise that is how we will stay.

No man can come to the Father except they put their faith in Jesus.

If we reject Jesus we reject the Father and His will.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:42 PM
Wanted to add Psalm 139 to this discussion. It really gives insight about a lot of what's been said about God's sovereignty and understanding, and how God is even in control of those future choices that we have not yet made.

Psalm 139

For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+139#fen-NIV-16248a)] you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.
19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

Hope this Psalm gives you all some clarity on what's been said. Thank you everyone for all of your input regarding this discussion. I really think we've all come to a better understanding of what God's sovereignty represents, and how it impacts the lives of us as believers.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:56 PM
Profess your belief in Jesus as our Savior who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later into heaven
Invite Jesus into your heart
Ask Jesus to forgive your sins (repentance)
Keep Jesus # one in your life
God Bless,
The Spiritual Treasurerman

Thank you Treasureman,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:04 PM
Wanted to add Psalm 139 to this discussion. It really gives insight about a lot of what's been said about God's sovereignty and understanding, and how God is even in control of those future choices that we have not yet made.

Psalm 139

For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.
5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+139#fen-NIV-16248a)] you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.
19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

Hope this Psalm gives you all some clarity on what's been said. Thank you everyone for all of your input regarding this discussion. I really think we've all come to a better understanding of what God's sovereignty represents, and how it impacts the lives of us as believers.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Truly this Psalm shows that God knows all things even before we were born he knew them, but let us not forget that also includes the wrong choices that we make. God has given us a path that we should walk but not all choose to walk the way of God.

Thank you Stephen,

And God bless you!!!!

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:09 PM
We know that God knows all things but as you have said God knows what we are going to choose, that will either be to do his will or not to do his will, but all in all it is still a choice.

Are we not all under sin? meaning that we choose to do that which is wrong, and unless we choose otherwise that is how we will stay.

No man can come to the Father except they put their faith in Jesus.

If we reject Jesus we reject the Father and His will.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

So based on Acts 9 below, would you say that Saul's conversion to the faith and acceptance of Christ was a choice of his own, or a work of God?

Acts 9

Saul's Conversion

Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.
The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:26 PM
Eric,

They are not willing because their hearts remain in unbelief. No man is willing in unbelief. Every man willingly chooses to reject Christ in unbelief. Should Christ be glad that the heart of every man born in Adam will not choose to come to Him that he/she might have life? Just as God was grieved that He had created mankind when He saw the evil of their hearts, so too, Christ is grieved over the evil of every man's heart before conversion.

Blessings,
RWYou're not answering the question as to WHY it would sadden God when people reject Him. If He doesn't give them the ability to do anything but reject Him why would it sadden Him and anger Him when they do?

I believe there can only be one answer to that question: It angers and saddens God when people outright reject Him because that was their willful choice. He desires all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) so when they do not repent and they reject Him it grieves Him and disappoints Him.

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:32 PM
So based on Acts 9 below, would you say that Saul's conversion to the faith and acceptance of Christ was a choice of his own, or a work of God?

Acts 9

Saul's Conversion

Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.
The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Paul believed that that it was Jesus that spoke to him and believed that which Jesus said to him. Paul was obedient to Christs commands to him. All that Jesus said would be came to pass.

After all that I believe he went willngly to do that which Jesus told him to do, he chose to follow Jesus. He could have choosen to disobey but he did not.

Does that answer your question?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:36 PM
Eric,

This is another verse we've gone round and round on. How did their fathers and they resist the Holy Spirit? They refused to hear the prophets of God, and in fact persecuted and killed them. And now they, like their father's before them rejected and killed the long awaited Messiah. When we look at the context we find these were not resisting the Holy Spirit's offering of salvation as you imply.

Ac 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Ac 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Ac 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Ac 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Ac 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Ac 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Ac 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Ac 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Blessings,
RWI'm looking at the context and I'm not seeing how you are somehow refuting what I said. Can you explain? I'm not seeing by what you've bolded and underlined that they weren't resisting the call of the Holy Spirit. They resisted the Holy Spirit by hardening their hearts towards God. When we look at the context of scripture as a whole, it shows that God was calling them but they would not answer. Again, I will post the passage that your doctrine has no answer for:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

You say that they didn't believe because they couldn't believe. Scripture says that they didn't believe because they willfully refused to believe.

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:39 PM
You're not answering the question as to WHY it would sadden God when people reject Him. If He doesn't give them the ability to do anything but reject Him why would it sadden Him and anger Him when they do?

I believe there can only be one answer to that question: It angers and saddens God when people outright reject Him because that was their willful choice. He desires all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) so when they do not repent and they reject Him it grieves Him and disappoints Him.

God being saddened by one rejecting him does not preclude his involvement in guiding us to make the right choices that lead us to him. No one knows exactly the depths of God's sadness, nor do we know the depths of his love..but what we do know is that God is sovereign and above all, and thus his Will is the ultimate force which is guiding us either to act for him or against him.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:44 PM
Eric,

We've gone round and round this verse. If Paul and Silas had simply said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved", and then did not preach the Word to them, how could they believe on whom they had not heard? But Paul and Silas gave them the Word of life, and after hearing he and his house were all baptized. We can tell people to believe on the Lord, but unless they hear the Word of life they cannot believe.

Ac 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Ac 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Many Blessings,
RWYou missed the point. Your answer to the question "what must I do to be saved?" would be a resounding "NOTHING!". You made that perfectly clear.

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:44 PM
I'm looking at the context and I'm not seeing how you are somehow refuting what I said. Can you explain? I'm not seeing by what you've bolded and underlined that they weren't resisting the call of the Holy Spirit. They resisted the Holy Spirit by hardening their hearts towards God. When we look at the context of scripture as a whole, it shows that God was calling them but they would not answer. Again, I will post the passage that your doctrine has no answer for:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

You say that they didn't believe because they couldn't believe. Scripture says that they didn't believe because they willfully refused to believe.

According to the scriptures what does it mean when your heart is hardened?

What does it mean when you do not believe?

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:45 PM
Paul believed that that it was Jesus that spoke to him and believed that which Jesus said to him. Paul was obedient to Christs commands to him. All that Jesus said would be came to pass.

After all that I believe he went willngly to do that which Jesus told him to do, he chose to follow Jesus. He could have choosen to disobey but he did not.

Does that answer your question?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Acts 9 states otherwise. In verse 15 it states the following:

But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

The scales that were on Paul's eyes were also removed by God, and Paul was essentially ordained by Jesus to suffer in his name.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:47 PM
God being saddened by one rejecting him does not preclude his involvement in guiding us to make the right choices that lead us to him. No one knows exactly the depths of God's sadness, nor do we know the depths of his love..but what we do know is that God is sovereign and above all, and thus his Will is the ultimate force which is guiding us either to act for him or against him.Again, you are not answering the question as to WHY God would grieve and get angry towards people merely for not doing what they are supposedly not capable of doing in the first place (repenting and believing). You doctrine says that God condemns people for not believing in Christ even though He supposedly never gave them the ability to do so.

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:52 PM
Acts 9 states otherwise. In verse 15 it states the following:

But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.

The scales that were on Paul's eyes were also removed by God, and Paul was essentially ordained by Jesus to suffer in his name. Paul also goes on to reference himself as chosen by Jesus in the following verses from Titus:

So do you believe that Paul did what Jesus commanded him to do unwillingy?

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:52 PM
You missed the point. Your answer to the question "what must I do to be saved?" would be a resounding "NOTHING!". You made that perfectly clear.

I know this is directed towards Roger, but I'm going to answer this one due to the fact that I've been answering similar questions like these throughout this thread. What treasureman posted beforehand should be alls answer to the question you've posed:



Originally Posted by treasureman


Profess your belief in Jesus as our Savior who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later into heaven
Invite Jesus into your heart
Ask Jesus to forgive your sins (repentance)
Keep Jesus # one in your life
God Bless,
The Spiritual Treasurerman


That being stated, as we've seen from the biblical examples given, one also needs to have God soften their hearts, as well as open their eyes in ears in order to make the right choice. If this were not the case, then the Pharisees would have accepted Jesus, however, as we have seen from scripture, they did not as God had hardened their hearts to the truth. The same goes for the Apostle Paul, and the same is true of ourselves within our walks. We do indeed need God to guide us on that narrow path.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:56 PM
So do you believe that Paul did what Jesus commanded him to do unwillingy?

Firstfruits

He was willed by God to do it. God opened his eyes, his heart, as well as his ears, and he followed Jesus by God willing him to do so. I will let this be my final post on the subject as we seem to be going around endlessly discussing things which appear to have been answered many times in this thread. I sincerely hope that I have not offended you or anyone else with my testimony.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:01 PM
One of the thing that is confusing this discussion is how we use the term inability.

Gen 37:3-4 Now Israel loved Joseph more than any of his other sons, because he had been born to him in his old age; and he made a richly ornamented robe for him. (4) When his brothers saw that their father loved him more than any of them, they hated him and could not speak a kind word to him.


Joseph’s brother could speak, they had a mouth. But they hated him so much that it prevented them for speak a kind word to him. In the same way man cant love Christ because they hate him so much. So when we who are reformed in our soterialogy talk about man being unable to come to Christ it is because he hates God.

If you lock at the context in Matthew 23 , Jesus has been condemning the Pharisees.

Mat 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

when he talks about Jerusalem he is referring to the pharsis the leaders of Jerusalem. There the ones who are responsible bring people to god and teach them about God but instead they where preventing the people from coming to him. And that why Jesus was angry and saddened. Jesus never said he wanted to gather Pharisees, he said he want to gather those under there care.I completely disagree. Jesus said the prophets, wise men and teachers were sent to the very ones who rejected Him. They rejected the teaching of those prophets, wise men and teachers. It doesn't say that those prophets, wise men and teachers were only sent to the ones that the Pharisees prevented from hearing their message. They were also sent to the Pharisees and scribes themselves to call them to repentance.

Jesus is speaking of the ones who rejected Him when He says "ye would not!". Your doctrine tries to say they could not, but Jesus says they would not. You can't deny that Jesus said He would have done something for them if they had only been willing. This shows that they chose to not be willing. Jesus wouldn't have said what He would have done if there was no chance that they could have been willing instead of not willing.

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:09 PM
He was willed by God to do it. God opened his eyes, his heart, as well as his ears, and he followed Jesus by God willing him to do so. I will let this be my final post on the subject as we seem to be going around endlessly discussing things which appear to have been answered many times in this thread. I sincerely hope that I have not offended you or anyone else with my testimony.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Thanks Stephen,

Paul answers the question.

1 Cor 9:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. :bounce:

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:02 PM
One of the thing that is confusing this discussion is how we use the term inability.

Gen 37:3-4 Now Israel loved Joseph more than any of his other sons, because he had been born to him in his old age; and he made a richly ornamented robe for him. (4) When his brothers saw that their father loved him more than any of them, they hated him and could not speak a kind word to him.

Joseph’s brother could speak, they had a mouth. But they hated him so much that it prevented them for speak a kind word to him. In the same way man cant love Christ because they hate him so much. So when we who are reformed in our soterialogy talk about man being unable to come to Christ it is because he hates God.

If you lock at the context in Matthew 23 , Jesus has been condemning the Pharisees.

Mat 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

when he talks about Jerusalem he is referring to the pharsis the leaders of Jerusalem. There the ones who are responsible bring people to god and teach them about God but instead they where preventing the people from coming to him. And that why Jesus was angry and saddened. Jesus never said he wanted to gather Pharisees, he said he want to gather those under there care.

Greetings Redimido,

Welcome to the community and to the discussion.

This is a great observation. It was the Pharisees who were preventing the children from coming to Christ for life. They are not the ones (pharisees) Christ would have gathered under His wings, but the ones to whom He says, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:17 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

The message is how we become saved; i.e. "hearing" through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. Everyone hears the message, but only those "hearing" His voice become saved. The message goes unto all mankind, and those who "hear" with Spiritual hearing through the message of the Cross, applied through the power of the Holy Spirit are GIVEN...not offered...ETERNAL LIFE! They alone "shall hear" and live, and no others.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Many Blessings,
RW


According to the following it is not that they have not heard the word but that they did not believe what they heard.

Rom 10:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

This is where the parable of the sower applies, as they heard the word but not all believed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Greetings Firstfruits,

Why didn't they believe what they heard? You've shown us the verse (Ro
10:17) that clearly tells us "faith comes by hearing the Word." So why do some hear the gospel (Word), and remain in unbelief? Is there something wrong with the Word or the hearer?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The passages I gave from John 10 show us why. Because hearing with physical ears will not bring one to faith. Unless we are given to hear His voice, because we are among His sheep, we cannot believe. Remember even the devils believe and tremble, but mere assent that He is the Christ is not enough to give the hearer saving faith unto salvation.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In the parable they hear enough, like the devils, to assent to the facts about who Christ is; i.e. "they believed for a time", but they never were given ears to hear His voice through saving faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:20 PM
Profess your belief in Jesus as our Savior who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later into heaven
Invite Jesus into your heart
Ask Jesus to forgive your sins (repentance)
Keep Jesus # one in your life
God Bless,
The Spiritual Treasurerman

So according to your theology salvation is all a matter of what we do for Christ, and not at all what He has done for His people! This is the doctrine of man's free will at its finest, and altogether from the mind of man, and without biblical support.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:31 PM
Greetings Redimido,

Welcome to the community and to the discussion.

This is a great observation. It was the Pharisees who were preventing the children from coming to Christ for life. They are not the ones (pharisees) Christ would have gathered under His wings, but the ones to whom He says, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Many Blessings,
RWCould the Pharisees not help but to reject Christ and prevent others from coming to Him or was it their willful choice to do so? Again, He said "ye would not" (you were not willing) and did not say "ye could not" (you were not able).

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:37 PM
So according to your theology salvation is all a matter of what we do for Christ, and not at all what He has done for His people!That isn't what he said.


This is the doctrine of man's free will at its finest, and altogether from the mind of man, and without biblical support.Why are you judging him? Do you actually think that he would try to say that salvation is possible apart from God's grace and Christ's shed blood on the cross? It seems to me that his point was to show what is required of us for salvation. Scripture teaches it repeatedly. We must repent. We must deny ourselves. We must believe in Christ.

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:53 PM
Could the Pharisees not help but to reject Christ and prevent others from coming to Him or was it their willful choice to do so? Again, He said "ye would not" (you were not willing) and did not say "ye could not" (you were not able).

Eric, this is the point I keep making and you apparently cannot understand. We ALL, every single one of us, are exactly like the Pharisees, and we ALL, every single one of us, exactly like the Pharisees, willfully, freely choose, from our own evil hearts, to reject Christ....UNTIL/UNLESS He enables us to come to Him for life everlasting. We will not, we cannot, because we are not willing and we are not able. We cannot give spiritual life to ourselves, and until we have spiritual life we will not, because we cannot come to Him for eternal life!

We are, every human being, born of Adam, without spiritual life, and apart from being re-born of the Spirit we have no desire for Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:06 PM
Profess your belief in Jesus as our Savior who died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected 3 days later into heaven
Invite Jesus into your heart
Ask Jesus to forgive your sins (repentance)
Keep Jesus # one in your life
God Bless,
The Spiritual Treasurerman


So according to your theology salvation is all a matter of what we do for Christ, and not at all what He has done for His people! This is the doctrine of man's free will at its finest, and altogether from the mind of man, and without biblical support.


That isn't what he said.

Why are you judging him? Do you actually think that he would try to say that salvation is possible apart from God's grace and Christ's shed blood on the cross? It seems to me that his point was to show what is required of us for salvation. Scripture teaches it repeatedly. We must repent. We must deny ourselves. We must believe in Christ.

Well Eric, I can only judge according to what he has posted. And he never mentions grace, nor does he explain how Jesus will come into our hearts if we would only ask, nor does he tell us how we turn from sin and toward Christ, or how we are able to keep Jesus first in our lives. It seems to me that his theology teaches we can do something to get ourselves saved, but Scripture tells us we can do nothing to save ourselves. Therefore it is with good reason that he is told his doctrine is unbiblical.

Eric, the devils believe in Christ...are they saved? Of course they aren't...why, because mental assention of Who Christ is will not save us...Salvation is of the Lord Alone, by His Word Alone, by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, to the Glory of God Alone!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:10 PM
You missed the point. Your answer to the question "what must I do to be saved?" would be a resounding "NOTHING!". You made that perfectly clear.

Nothing they or I can do...true. But, the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit can save. Therefore, just as Paul and Silas spoke to the jailer and his house the Word of life, so too I would speak the Word of life to whosoever.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:18 PM
Again, you are not answering the question as to WHY God would grieve and get angry towards people merely for not doing what they are supposedly not capable of doing in the first place (repenting and believing). You doctrine says that God condemns people for not believing in Christ even though He supposedly never gave them the ability to do so.

Because the natural state of man is to reject Christ. Our natural state is to love the darkness, and hate the light.
God was grieved that what He created as good, in its natural state now rejects Him.
This was a generation chosen to represent all generations who wanted and believed in their own righteousness.

We had to see what we 'all' are like without God.
We had to see just why Christ had to come and save us.
Even today people think they can deny Christ, and still be saved because they have religion and other good works.

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:22 PM
Again, you are not answering the question as to WHY God would grieve and get angry towards people merely for not doing what they are supposedly not capable of doing in the first place (repenting and believing). You doctrine says that God condemns people for not believing in Christ even though He supposedly never gave them the ability to do so.

Eric,

Did not God create man "very good"? Yes, He did! How is it that you continue to say God never gave them the ability to believe? What happened to mankind after he transgressed? He lost his "very good" status, and became in bondage to Satan, sin and death. Was it the fault of God that man did not obey Him? Now every man born in Adam is born in bondage to Satan, sin and death. Is this becasue God did not give them that ability to believe? No Way! It is because of their own evil hearts, following the way of their head (Adam). We follow in his (Adam's) path because we love our sins, are enemies of God and hate Christ, not because God did not give us ability to believe. As long as we wear our bodies (flesh) of death we will continue to follow Adam. But when Christ gives us life through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit, we can then walk according to our new Head, Christ.

So you see unless God chooses to save some men, than no man will be saved. Left to ourselves no man will choose to come to Christ for life.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:24 PM
Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why did Peter not say 'believe' and be baptized? Because they already at this point believed.
When was it that they believed? When they were cut to the heart.
Did they cut their own hearts? Did they say 'I will choose to believe'?
How did they believe? Was it simply Peter's convincing words, or was it the word spoken in the power of the Holy Spirit? Sharper then any two-edge sword.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Act 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Did three thousand souls all decide at the very same time, to 'choose' to believe?
Are we told of any that resisted the sword of the Spirit?

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:33 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

Why didn't they believe what they heard? You've shown us the verse (Ro
10:17) that clearly tells us "faith comes by hearing the Word." So why do some hear the gospel (Word), and remain in unbelief? Is there something wrong with the Word or the hearer?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The passages I gave from John 10 show us why. Because hearing with physical ears will not bring one to faith. Unless we are given to hear His voice, because we are among His sheep, we cannot believe. Remember even the devils believe and tremble, but mere assent that He is the Christ is not enough to give the hearer saving faith unto salvation.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In the parable they hear enough, like the devils, to assent to the facts about who Christ is; i.e. "they believed for a time", but they never were given ears to hear His voice through saving faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Many Blessings,
RWScripture doesn't teach that some people can't hear because they are never given the ability to hear. Everyone has the ability and some harden their own hearts, stop their own ears and close their own eyes to the truth.

Matthew 13 (also Acts 28:25-27)
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

2 Timothy 4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

We have to be willing to hear His voice and we need to not harden our own hearts.

Psalm 95
7For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
8Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

This Psalm is quoted within this passage:

Hebrews 3
4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Notice that it says "IF ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts". This shows that being able to hear His voice is conditional. One has to not have a hardened heart in order to hear His voice. It is our choice whether to harden our hearts to the truth or not. Why are there these warnings about holding fast and not hardening our hearts through the deceitulness of sin if we have no choice in the matter of whether to believe in Christ or not?

People are condemned and held responsible for not believing in Christ. The reason for this is not because they had no ability to believe in Christ, but instead that they willingly chose to reject Him.

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Veretax
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:37 PM
After Moses and Aaron appeared before pharoah, and Aaron's rod became a snake, and devoured the snakes of Pharoah's two 'wisemen' :

Ex 7:14 So the Lord said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Pharoah's heart was already hard)

After Moses and Aaron stretched out and turned the water read, and the fish died etc: (again the Magician's duplicated this)

Ex 7:22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said. 23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house. Neither was his heart moved by this. (again Pharaoh's heart grew hard)

After this Pharaoh entreated moses to stop this (even though the magicians also duplicated this, and at Pharaoh's word God stopped the Frogs the next day.) then:

Ex 8:5 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said. (Again Pharaoh hardened his heart)

Then came the plague of Lice, this time the Magicians could not duplicate it and told Pharaoh it was the 'finger of god', yet....

Ex 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had said. (again he hardens his heart)


Then the Lord brought forth the plague of flies and in this instance made a difference between his people, and the Egyptians. It is so bad that again Pharaoh entreates them to go Sacrifice to God (but moses and Aaron don't initially because the Egyptian's sacrifice would be unclean, but pharaoh pleads for Moses to intercede. Moses agrees, but urges Pharaoh not to deal deceitfully with them anymore. So the Flies were gone, but...:

Ex 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go. (Yet again!)


So God brought the plague on the livestock, and again let a difference be between Israel and the Egyptians. Yet:

Ex 9:7 Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard, and he did not let the people go. (Yup I'm sensing a trend here)

So then came the plague of the boils, and even the magicians could not stand this one, notice what happens here though:

Ex 9:12 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses. (The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart...)

then came the plague of Hail now this is interestinG:

Ex 9:20 He who feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his livestock flee to the houses. 21 But he who did not regard the word of the Lord left his servants and his livestock in the field.

So even some of the Egyptians had come to believe in the Lord... interesting.

After this Pharaoh admits he has sinned:

Ex 9: 27 And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, "I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked. 28 Entreat the Lord, that there may be no more mighty thundering and hail, for it is enough. I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer." 2

yet....
Ex 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hard; neither would he let the children of Israel go, as the Lord had spoken by Moses. (Again he hardened his heart!)

Now the Lord tells moses that he has hardened pharaohs heart. hrms.

Ex 10;1 Now the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him, 2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and your son's son the mighty things I have done in Egypt, and My signs which I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord." (This time God hardened his heart)

Then Pharaoh wanted to let them go, but only the men, so came the plague of Locusts, and it was so bad again Pharaoh entreated moses to intercede.

Ex 10:16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste, and said, "I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. 17 Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and entreat the Lord your God, that He may take away from me this death only." 18 So he went out from Pharaoh and entreated the Lord. 19 And the Lord turned a very strong west wind, which took the locusts away and blew them into the Red Sea. There remained not one locust in all the territory of Egypt. 20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go. (Again the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart)

Then came the plague of darkness, and pharao wanted to let them go, just not their livestock..... and again after moses said everything of theirs must go....

Ex 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Again the lord hardens his heart!)


In the next chapter God describes what his about to do and how he will harden pharoahs heart. Then in 14 as the Israelites are leaving God ays to Moses:

Ex 14: 3 For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, 'They are bewildered by the land; the wilderness has closed them in.' 4 Then I will harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord." And they did so.

(Yup the Lord hardened his heart again. In fact three times in Chapter 14 the Lord hardens their hearts.)

Ex 14:8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness.

Ex 14:17 And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Pharaoh described as hardening his own heart: 7 Times
God Hardening Pharaoh or the Egyptian's hearts: 6 Times (at least 6, I'm betting i missed one but)

So 7 times Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and at least 6 times God did the hardening.

So it is my conclusion that hardening of the Heart can be of man, or from God, but in this case, God did not harden the heart of Pharaoh until after this happened a 6th time.

Therefore your conclusion that hearing of God is basically being prevented because God has not opened their ears doesn't hold water. Clearly, we are told not to harden our hearts as Pharaoh.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:52 PM
Eric, this is the point I keep making and you apparently cannot understand.I can understand everything you're saying, Roger. I just happen to disagree with it.


We ALL, every single one of us, are exactly like the Pharisees, and we ALL, every single one of us, exactly like the Pharisees, willfully, freely choose, from our own evil hearts, to reject Christ....UNTIL/UNLESS He enables us to come to Him for life everlasting. All people are able to believe. Christ died for all people, whether you want to acknowledge that or not. Therefore, all people can be saved. But they have to willfully and freely choose to believe in Him.

2 Corinthians 5
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Timothy 4
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 2
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


We will not, we cannot, because we are not willing and we are not able. We cannot give spiritual life to ourselves, and until we have spiritual life we will not, because we cannot come to Him for eternal life!Who said anything about giving spiritual life to ourselves? You need to stop misrepresenting the views of those who oppose your doctrine. Where does scripture say that most people (since few are saved) are not ever able to believe in Christ?


We are, every human being, born of Adam, without spiritual life, and apart from being re-born of the Spirit we have no desire for Christ. Where does scripture teach this? Show me specific scripture that shows someone putting their faith in Christ after being born of the Spirit.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:59 PM
Nothing they or I can do...true. But, the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit can save. Therefore, just as Paul and Silas spoke to the jailer and his house the Word of life, so too I would speak the Word of life to whosoever.

Many Blessings,
RWYou are good at dodging the issue. The issue here is that if a person like that came up to you and asked you what he had to do to be saved you would say "NOTHING!". You would be offended that someone would even ask such a question because you don't believe there's anything anyone has to do to be saved.

You try to say that we are not required to do anything. That is false. Paul and Silas said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved". The word of the Lord that they then spoke to him was to tell him what believing on the Lord Jesus Christ means. And I don't doubt that they explained that it involves denying yourself, acknowledging that you're a sinner and trusting and believing in Christ alone for forgiveness, salvation and eternal life.

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:06 PM
Scripture doesn't teach that some people can't hear because they are never given the ability to hear. Everyone has the ability and some harden their own hearts, stop their own ears and close their own eyes to the truth.

Matthew 13 (also Acts 28:25-27)
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Here is the prophecy spoken through Isaiah.

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Christ speaks to them in parables because it was not given for them to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven. It was through their hard-hearted stiff-neck rebellious hearts that the gospel would be sent unto all the nations of the world. Granted they were already hard-hearted and refused to hear through His prophets, just as all who are born in Adam are. Still the Lord makes sure they cannot understaind by speaking to them in parables.

Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mt 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

You use Acts 28:25-27 which shows fulfillment of the prophecy spoken through God's prophet, Isaiah. But not everyone hearing on that appointed day did not "hear" and believe. Some did believe the things that were spoken, and some believed not.

Ac 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Ac 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Again, they were all hearing the same Word, some believed and some did not...why? The same crowd, "the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Acts 28:27; Mt 13:15)

Some in the crowd of hard hearted, rebellious people "hear" and are saved, and others from this hard hearted, rebellious people remain in unbelief, unable to understand the Word. Is there a problem with the Word or a problem with the hearing?

Many blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:13 PM
Well Eric, I can only judge according to what he has posted.He made one short post. Who are you to form conclusions about his entire theology based on one short post?


And he never mentions grace,Does that mean he doesn't think grace is necessary for salvation? Do you actually think he would deny that?


nor does he explain how Jesus will come into our hearts if we would only ask, nor does he tell us how we turn from sin and toward Christ, or how we are able to keep Jesus first in our lives. It seems to me that his theology teaches we can do something to get ourselves saved, but Scripture tells us we can do nothing to save ourselves. Therefore it is with good reason that he is told his doctrine is unbiblical. We can't save ourselves. No one is saying that. We could die on a cross but it wouldn't save us. We needed Jesus to do the work. But we are required to humble ourselves and acknowledge that His work is what we needed to be saved and that He died for our sins and not in vain.


Eric, the devils believe in Christ...are they saved? Of course they aren't...why, because mental assention of Who Christ is will not save us...No one here has claimed that.


Salvation is of the Lord Alone, by His Word Alone, by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, to the Glory of God Alone!So I guess that means people aren't required to repent and believe then? God does it for us? Which means He chose not to do it for everyone else? Why not? Do you have an answer for that besides "He can do as He pleases"? Why did it please Him to make most people so that they could not believe and be saved and instead made it so that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire? Surely, if your doctrine was true you would have some sort of explanation for that.

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:15 PM
After Moses and Aaron appeared before pharoah, and Aaron's rod became a snake, and devoured the snakes of Pharoah's two 'wisemen' :

Ex 7:14 So the Lord said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Pharoah's heart was already hard)

After Moses and Aaron stretched out and turned the water read, and the fish died etc: (again the Magician's duplicated this)

Ex 7:22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said. 23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house. Neither was his heart moved by this. (again Pharaoh's heart grew hard)

After this Pharaoh entreated moses to stop this (even though the magicians also duplicated this, and at Pharaoh's word God stopped the Frogs the next day.) then:

Ex 8:5 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said. (Again Pharaoh hardened his heart)

Then came the plague of Lice, this time the Magicians could not duplicate it and told Pharaoh it was the 'finger of god', yet....

Ex 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had said. (again he hardens his heart)


Then the Lord brought forth the plague of flies and in this instance made a difference between his people, and the Egyptians. It is so bad that again Pharaoh entreates them to go Sacrifice to God (but moses and Aaron don't initially because the Egyptian's sacrifice would be unclean, but pharaoh pleads for Moses to intercede. Moses agrees, but urges Pharaoh not to deal deceitfully with them anymore. So the Flies were gone, but...:

Ex 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go. (Yet again!)


So God brought the plague on the livestock, and again let a difference be between Israel and the Egyptians. Yet:

Ex 9:7 Then Pharaoh sent, and indeed, not even one of the livestock of the Israelites was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh became hard, and he did not let the people go. (Yup I'm sensing a trend here)

So then came the plague of the boils, and even the magicians could not stand this one, notice what happens here though:

Ex 9:12 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses. (The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart...)

then came the plague of Hail now this is interestinG:

Ex 9:20 He who feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his livestock flee to the houses. 21 But he who did not regard the word of the Lord left his servants and his livestock in the field.

So even some of the Egyptians had come to believe in the Lord... interesting.

After this Pharaoh admits he has sinned:

Ex 9: 27 And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, "I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked. 28 Entreat the Lord, that there may be no more mighty thundering and hail, for it is enough. I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer." 2

yet....
Ex 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hard; neither would he let the children of Israel go, as the Lord had spoken by Moses. (Again he hardened his heart!)

Now the Lord tells moses that he has hardened pharaohs heart. hrms.

Ex 10;1 Now the Lord said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him, 2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and your son's son the mighty things I have done in Egypt, and My signs which I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord." (This time God hardened his heart)

Then Pharaoh wanted to let them go, but only the men, so came the plague of Locusts, and it was so bad again Pharaoh entreated moses to intercede.

Ex 10:16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste, and said, "I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you. 17 Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and entreat the Lord your God, that He may take away from me this death only." 18 So he went out from Pharaoh and entreated the Lord. 19 And the Lord turned a very strong west wind, which took the locusts away and blew them into the Red Sea. There remained not one locust in all the territory of Egypt. 20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go. (Again the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart)

Then came the plague of darkness, and pharao wanted to let them go, just not their livestock..... and again after moses said everything of theirs must go....

Ex 10:27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. (Again the lord hardens his heart!)


In the next chapter God describes what his about to do and how he will harden pharoahs heart. Then in 14 as the Israelites are leaving God ays to Moses:

Ex 14: 3 For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, 'They are bewildered by the land; the wilderness has closed them in.' 4 Then I will harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord." And they did so.

(Yup the Lord hardened his heart again. In fact three times in Chapter 14 the Lord hardens their hearts.)

Ex 14:8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness.

Ex 14:17 And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Pharaoh described as hardening his own heart: 7 Times
God Hardening Pharaoh or the Egyptian's hearts: 6 Times (at least 6, I'm betting i missed one but)

So 7 times Pharaoh hardened his own heart, and at least 6 times God did the hardening.

So it is my conclusion that hardening of the Heart can be of man, or from God, but in this case, God did not harden the heart of Pharaoh until after this happened a 6th time.

Therefore your conclusion that hearing of God is basically being prevented because God has not opened their ears doesn't hold water. Clearly, we are told not to harden our hearts as Pharaoh.

Greetings Veretax,

You're right, you missed one of the hardenings. Very clearly it is the will of God that Pharaoh's heart is hardened, not only because his heart, like every man born in Adam is hard, but because God would continue to keep his heart hardened, so that through his rebellion against the Almighty, His great glory would be made manifest unto all the world.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:20 PM
Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why did Peter not say 'believe' and be baptized? Because they already at this point believed.
When was it that they believed? When they were cut to the heart.
Did they cut their own hearts? Did they say 'I will choose to believe'? They chose to believe after being cut to the heart. Being cut to the heart does not mean a person will automatically respond in a certain way. It is at that point of being cut in the heart when people can either choose to believe or reject what they have been shown in their hearts to be true.

The Pharisees and scribes were also cut to the heart, but they had a different response than those who believed.

Acts 7
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:29 PM
So I guess that means people aren't required to repent and believe then? God does it for us? Which means He chose not to do it for everyone else? Why not? Do you have an answer for that besides "He can do as He pleases"? Why did it please Him to make most people so that they could not believe and be saved and instead made it so that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire? Surely, if your doctrine was true you would have some sort of explanation for that.

Eric,

God does not have to repent and believe for us. He changes our hearts of stone into hearts that desire Him. None would come to Christ for life if He did not. Again, Eric, God created man "very good", He did not create them to be cast into the lake of fire. Man became exceedingly wicked, and without hope when he disobeyed God's command. Once he did this, both he and all his offspring (humanity) are born in the same fallen condition, without hope because they plunged themselves into bondage of Satan, sin and death.

I don't understand people who look at God's grace in salvation from a negative view. God desires to have a people for Himself, every man, born in Adam cannot come to Christ for life, so in His great love, mercy and grace God saves His people for Himself. If God had not chosen some men to save, then no man would be saved. We should not be asking why God left some men in their fallen, helpless states...no, the question we should be asking is why does God save any man, because no man deserves the mercy and grace God bestows upon those whom He saves.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:30 PM
Greetings Veretax,

You're right, you missed one of the hardenings. Very clearly it is the will of God that Pharaoh's heart is hardened, not only because his heart, like every man born in Adam is hard, but because God would continue to keep his heart hardened, so that through his rebellion against the Almighty, His great glory would be made manifest unto all the world.

Ex 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Blessings,
RWGod only hardens the hearts of those who already have hardened their own hearts (Romans 1:18-32).

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:31 PM
God only hardens the hearts of those who already have hardened their own hearts (Romans 1:18-32).

Eric,

That would include every unsaved man! We all, like Saul (Paul) are hardened until the Lord opens our ears to hear and eyes to see.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:45 PM
Eric,

God does not have to repent and believe for us. He changes our hearts of stone into hearts that desire Him. None would come to Christ for life if He did not. Again, Eric, God created man "very good", He did not create them to be cast into the lake of fire. Man became exceedingly wicked, and without hope when he disobeyed God's command. Once he did this, both he and all his offspring (humanity) are born in the same fallen condition, without hope because they plunged themselves into bondage of Satan, sin and death. Did man become exceedingly wicked by choice?


I don't understand people who look at God's grace in salvation from a negative view.I've explained it many times. Your doctrine suggests that God decided to only give a few people salvation while leaving the rest in their sins with no chance for salvation. This contradicts the character of God as taught in scripture. Scripture teaches that God is impartial. Scripture teaches that all people will be judged by the same standard. Scripture teaches that people are condemned for not believing in Christ. You have yet to explain convincingly why people are supposedly condemned for not believing in Christ when they supposedly didn't ever have the ability to do so. Scripture also teaches that God desires for all people to repent and to be saved.


God desires to have a people for Himself, every man, born in Adam cannot come to Christ for life, so in His great love, mercy and grace God saves His people for Himself. If God had not chosen some men to save, then no man would be saved.Where does scripture teach that? You say that with the assumption that people are not able to make decisions regarding who they wish to serve and follow. Yet we can see passages like Joshua 24:15, Isaiah 55:6-7, Isaiah 66:2-4, Matthew 23:37-38 and Rev 22:17 that say otherwise.


We should not be asking why God left some men in their fallen, helpless statesShouldn't we? If that was the truth, why shouldn't we ask why it was the case, especially since that would contradict the character of God as taught in scripture?


...no, the question we should be asking is why does God save any man, because no man deserves the mercy and grace God bestows upon those whom He saves. Because He is a loving God and full of mercy and grace. But why wouldn't a God full of mercy and grace not want to make a way for all people to be saved? We're even told plainly that He does want all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).

Why would God not want a two-way relationship with people? I hope you realize that your doctrine does not teach such a thing as a two-way relationship between God and His people. Your doctrine has God's relationship with man being no different than a puppet master's "relationship" with his puppets or no different than a programmer's "relationship" with his robots.

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:46 PM
Thanks Stephen,

Paul answers the question.

1 Cor 9:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. :bounce:

Firstfruits

Well I was going to stop posting until I read this post...:) Let me clarify a bit more on what you've posted. I think Paul was speaking of his freedom in Christ, as oppossed to his own will being sovereign and above that of God's.

Let's read the rest of the verses...

1 Cor 9:18-21
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Why would Paul exclaim himself to be under anything, if he himself had no limitations imposed upon himself. We see in verse 21 that he states himself as being free from all men(not God's Will) and under the "law of Christ" which brings him freedom. Thus Paul is not walking unto himself, he is walking in Christ which brings him freedom from the bondage of the law that he was under. I don't believe Paul exclaims anywhere in his epistles about his inherent sovereignty outside of God's Will. In fact he states in 2 Corinthians 13:8 that nothing can be done against the "Truth", thus once again signifying God's Will being above that of all of his creations.

All this being said, none of what has been written in this post or others negates the testimony of man having choices. What it does demonstrate is that God himself is in the constant process of Willing people to himself by his grace and power through Christ Jesus. Hope this clarifies things with you and others. If not feel free to let me know.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:54 PM
Eric,

That would include every unsaved man! We all, like Saul (Paul) are hardened until the Lord opens our ears to hear and eyes to see.

Many Blessings,
RWYou apparently are forgetting that God is patient and longsuffering. He doesn't just randomly harden some people's hearts and not others. He only hardens people's hearts after giving them plenty of chances to repent. Not everyone decides to just continue to refuse to repent over and over again. Anyone who decides to continue to refuse to repent and think that they can do what they want for awhile and then repent later is a fool and they are playing with fire. At that point they can only hope that they are one of those who God has mercy on rather than one who God chooses to further harden for His purposes.

It is taught in Isaiah 55:6-7 that one must seek the Lord while He may be found and call upon Him while He is near. They must forsake their ways while there is still time to do so. This is what I believe your doctrine fails to recognize: the urgency to reach the lost before it is too late. Your doctrine does not encourage evangelism because you say everything is already predetermined. I believe everyone has an opportunity to repent and believe but they must do so while there is the opportunity.

Jude 1
21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:05 PM
It is taught in Isaiah 55:6-7 that one must seek the Lord while He may be found and call upon Him while He is near. They must forsake their ways while there is still time to do so. This is what I believe your doctrine fails to recognize: the urgency to reach the lost before it is too late. Your doctrine does not encourage evangelism because you say everything is already predetermined. I believe everyone has an opportunity to repent and believe but they must do so while there is the opportunity.

Jude 1
21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

I don't think that is what is being said Eric. After a bit I do think that there is a certain amount of scripture that can be posted, where one gets caught up in semantics. God is Sovereign. That's a very simple and accurate truth. Man is not. People do have choices under God's sovereignty, but these choices are limited. This is also a simple and accurate truth that everyone has agreed upon within this thread.

Ideally, I think we all should go about life walking with God, having faith that we are being lead to him through Christ to salvation. I think saying that "God is leading us, and making the right choices for us." Helps us have confidence in the decisions that we make, and helps us be free from concern regarding our salvation. Why worry all the time about making the right choices in our lives. Why not have confidence in the fact that God has already made the right choices for us? This doesn't mean that one should sit around lethargically waiting for God, but it does take away some of the excessive worry..and ideally is should help us focus less on self in our walks when we feel as if God is directing us.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:14 PM
Did man become exceedingly wicked by choice?

Eric,

How could man choose to be exceedingly wicked when prior to the fall he had no knowledge of evil? For one to choose to be wicked wouldn't that imply that one must know what wickedness is? They certainly chose to disobey God, but is that what made them exceedingly wicked? I believe it is not until their eyes were opened, and they tried to hide from God that they became exceedingly wicked. This is when they began to accuse one another for disobeying. By then of course it was not an act of free will, for their will is now in bondage to the one they followed, and sin and death. Now hiding from God was the only thing they desired because now they became aware of their nakedness before God; i.e. their eyes were opened.

God gave them life, and provided for them. They were beguiled by the serpent and disobeyed without knowing that disobedience would give them knowledge of evil. After knowing what evil is, they chose to try to hide their nakedness from God...why? Because their eyes were opened and they became slaves of unrighteousness so the only choice they and we can make since the fall is toward sin and evil. Even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Many Blessings,
Rw

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:17 PM
I don't think that is what is being said Eric. Sure it is. Perhaps your doctrine differs from Roger's? I don't know.


After a bit I do think that there is a certain amount of scripture that can be posted, where one gets caught up in semantics. God is Sovereign. That's a very simple and accurate truth. Man is not. People do have choices under God's sovereignty, but these choices are limited. This is also a simple and accurate truth that everyone has agreed upon within this thread. Do you believe that all people have the ability to make free will moral choices or not? That's what this thread is about.


Ideally, I think we all should go about life walking with God, having faith that we are being lead to him through Christ to salvation. I think saying that "God is leading us, and making the right choices for us." Helps us have confidence in the decisions that we make, and helps us be free from concern regarding our salvation. Why worry all the time about making the right choices in our lives. Why not have confidence in the fact that God has already made the right choices for us? This doesn't mean that one should sit around lethargically waiting for God, but it does take away some of the excessive worry..and ideally is should help us focus less on self in our walks when we feel as if God is directing us.

God bless in Christian Love,

StephenI'm not talking in terms of those of us who are already saved. Because we now have the Spirit indwelling us and have been believers for a period of time, we have learned how to follow the Spirit's leading. I understand all of that. But in this thread I have been talking in terms of the choice people have to reject or accept Christ in the first place.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:20 PM
Eric,

How could man choose to be exceedingly wicked when prior to the fall he had no knowledge of evil? For one to choose to be wicked wouldn't that imply that one must know what wickedness is? They certainly chose to disobey God, but is that what made them exceedingly wicked? I believe it is not until their eyes were opened, and they tried to hide from God that they became exceedingly wicked. This is when they began to accuse one another for disobeying. By then of course it was not an act of free will, for their will is now in bondage to the one they followed, and sin and death. Now hiding from God was the only thing they desired because now they became aware of their nakedness before God; i.e. their eyes were opened.

God gave them life, and provided for them. They were beguiled by the serpent and disobeyed without knowing that disobedience would give them knowledge of evil. After knowing what evil is, they chose to try to hide their nakedness from God...why? Because their eyes were opened and they became slaves of unrighteousness so the only choice they and we can make since the fall is toward sin and evil. Even our righteousness is but filthy rags.

Many Blessings,
RwYou're talking in circles. You acknowledge that it was their choice to disobey but then try to say that is was not their choice to become exceedingly wicked? Isn't that what wickedness is: disobedience towards God?

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:39 PM
You're talking in circles. You acknowledge that it was their choice to disobey but then try to say that is was not their choice to become exceedingly wicked? Isn't that what wickedness is: disobedience towards God?

Eric,

Have you ever comitted sin in ignorance? Consider Paul for instance who tells us he was a blasphemer, but it was forgiven him because he had done it in ignorance and unbelief. While his ignorance was certainly forgiven him, he did not get away with the sins he committed against the church even though he had done it ignorantly. For Christ says, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." (Ac 9:15,16)

I don't believe Adam and Eve freely chose to be beguiled by the serpent. That makes no sense. Why would they choose something they knew would bring them harm? I believe Adam and Eve disobeyed because they were deceived by the serpent, not by choice, and that their deception was intended to give them knowledge of good and evil. Sin and evil have always been used by God to show His glory, and to make the world know He is the Almighty Creator Who does whatsoever He wills in His creation.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:45 PM
Ro 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Disobedience - parakoe inattention, i.e. (by implication) disobedience:--disobedience.

Wicked - poneros hurtful, i.e. evil (properly, in effect or influence, and thus differing from 2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as from 4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively, calamitous; also (passively) ill, i.e. diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, i.e. derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil, or (plural) sinners:--bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd, malicious, wicked(-ness).

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:32 PM
Do you believe that all people have the ability to make free will moral choices or not?


Not outside the knowledge and sovereignty of God. Our choices will only get us so far within this "freedom" of choice that God allows if you wish to call it that. Remember the Apostle Paul states that "everything is permissable to him, but not everything is beneficial." Without God directing us, the choices we make with this "freedom" often times won't be very beneficial to our salvation. Even with us making these choices, God still knows ultimately what decisions we will make in the end..thus all are in essence being directed by God even when they make a "free will" choice of their own that goes against God.

Thus I don't think the real important moral choices that we make on our own are beneficial to us. So how do we become truly free? By submitting ourselves in entirety to God, and having faith that he is directing us within the various choices we make within our lives. This doesn't bring about complacency in our walks, quite the contrary it brings about peace as we no longer have concern about the minor nuances of life, and just go about living life in the best possible way we can, being loving to our fellow man, and having faith that God is approving and directing what it is we are doing.

In Christian Love,

Stephen

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:40 PM
Eric,

Have you ever comitted sin in ignorance? Sure.


Consider Paul for instance who tells us he was a blasphemer, but it was forgiven him because he had done it in ignorance and unbelief. While his ignorance was certainly forgiven him, he did not get away with the sins he committed against the church even though he had done it ignorantly. For Christ says, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." (Ac 9:15,16)

I don't believe Adam and Eve freely chose to be beguiled by the serpent. That makes no sense. Why would they choose something they knew would bring them harm?People do that all the time. The deception of temporary pleasure blinds people to the consequences of their sin. It isn't as if they didn't know the consequences. It's that they love the sin so much that they don't even think about the consequences while they are doing it.


I believe Adam and Eve disobeyed because they were deceived by the serpent, not by choice, and that their deception was intended to give them knowledge of good and evil.Did Eve not choose to listen to the serpent rather than to God? Are you suggesting that she couldn't help but listen to him and do what he said? God told them that they would surely die if they ate the apple so they couldn't really claim ignorance for what they did.


Sin and evil have always been used by God to show His glory, and to make the world know He is the Almighty Creator Who does whatsoever He wills in His creation.Sin and evil can be used by God to show His glory, but that doesn't mean that all sin and evil is used by God to show His glory, so I don't know what your point is there.

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:41 PM
I'm not talking in terms of those of us who are already saved. Because we now have the Spirit indwelling us and have been believers for a period of time, we have learned how to follow the Spirit's leading. I understand all of that. But in this thread I have been talking in terms of the choice people have to reject or accept Christ in the first place.

Sorry, forgot about this paragraph. I don't think we are totally making all choices of our own before or after being saved. I do think God's will is active in the decision making process of those who reject him and those who accept him.

I think what you are trying to assert with your testimony is that God has no role in a man making a moral decision to act against him. And that man is entirely responsable for all the moral choices that he makes. This is not a very accurate position, as we see this not to be the case throughout the scriptures with countless people.(Pharoah, children of Israel, etc).

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:48 PM
Not outside the knowledge and sovereignty of God. Our choices will only get us so far within this "freedom" of choice that God allows if you wish to call it that. Remember the Apostle Paul states that "everything is permissable to him, but not everything is beneficial." Without God directing us, the choices we make with this "freedom" often times won't be very beneficial to our salvation. Even with us making these choices, God still knows ultimately what decisions we will make in the end..thus all are in essence being directed by God even when they make a "free will" choice of their own that goes against God. I keep seeing these statements suggesting that God knowing something beforehand means that God predetermined or planned for it to happen. So, if I'm reading you right, if I choose to do something then it was directed by God even if it goes against God. Huh? I can't for the life of me figure out how you come to that conclusion.


Thus I don't think the real important moral choices that we make on our own are beneficial to us. So how do we become truly free? By submitting ourselves in entirety to God, and having faith that he is directing us within the various choices we make within our lives. This doesn't bring about complacency in our walks, quite the contrary it brings about peace as we no longer have concern about the minor nuances of life, and just go about living life in the best possible way we can, being loving to our fellow man, and having faith that God is approving and directing what it is we are doing. My question really wasn't regarding those of us who are already believers, but regarding unbelievers. Before someone is saved, do you believe they are able to make moral choices? Seems to me that Joshua believed they could. He even believed they could choose who they could serve. That's a pretty huge decision, if you ask me.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:52 PM
Sorry, forgot about this paragraph. I don't think we are totally making all choices of our own before or after being saved. I do think God's will is active in the decision making process of those who reject him and those who accept him.

I think what you are trying to assert with your testimony is that God has no role in a man making a moral decision to act against him. And that man is entirely responsable for all the moral choices that he makes. This is not a very accurate position, as we see this not to be the case throughout the scriptures with countless people.(Pharoah, children of Israel, etc).Yes, those are exceptions. God can harden someone's heart for His purposes if He wants to. You are on the other extreme by (apparently) saying that man is not entirely responsible for any moral decisions he makes, including whether or not to believe in Christ. If that's an accurate portrayal of what you believe, then why would God lead someone to not ever believe in His Son, knowing that by doing so the person will be condemned for eternity in the lake of fire?

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:59 PM
I keep hearing these statements suggesting that God knowing something beforehand means that God predetermined or planned for it to happen. So, if I'm reading you right, if I choose to do something then it was directed by God even if it goes against God. Huh? I can't for the life of me figure out how you come to that conclusion.


Read Psalm 139. David gives a lot of clarity in this Psalm about God's sovereignty and omniscience. Also read Paul's Epistles. God knows everything. He is omniscient. Nothing slips by him, and nothing happens unless he has ordained for it to happen. Thus God is in control of all things. Now how do we reconcile all of this with him giving us limited choices, and us still being somewhat responsable for the choices we make. To be quite frank I have no idea. What I do know is what the bible states God is working all things for the good of those who love him.




My question really wasn't regarding those of us who are already believers, but regarding unbelievers. Before someone is saved, do you believe they are able to make moral choices? Seems to me that Joshua believed they could. He even believed they could choose who they could serve. That's a pretty huge decision, if you ask me.


I don't think what you've stated precludes God knowing what choice Joshua will make, or any choice anyone will make regarding that matter. I do think you have made some good points that God does hold men accountable regarding some decisions he's allowed them to make. This doesn't negate the fact that God still does have mercy on people even when they make the wrong choices. Thank God for that, we are only human - and thus we are subject to the frailties of the flesh at times.

Veretax
Nov 3rd 2008, 11:07 PM
It is taught in Isaiah 55:6-7 that one must seek the Lord while He may be found and call upon Him while He is near. They must forsake their ways while there is still time to do so. This is what I believe your doctrine fails to recognize: the urgency to reach the lost before it is too late. Your doctrine does not encourage evangelism because you say everything is already predetermined. I believe everyone has an opportunity to repent and believe but they must do so while there is the opportunity.


This is precisely one of the main reasons I left the reformed faith. We were taught to study the scriptures, but evangelism was NEVER hardly even hinted at as being important. I think that sets a bad example. But this is the consequence of believing as Roger does. If you believe God orchestrates everything in your life, then what conclusion can there be, but that God will save whom he will save whether I witness or not?



I keep seeing these statements suggesting that God knowing something beforehand means that God predetermined or planned for it to happen. So, if I'm reading you right, if I choose to do something then it was directed by God even if it goes against God. Huh? I can't for the life of me figure out how you come to that conclusion.

My question really wasn't regarding those of us who are already believers, but regarding unbelievers. Before someone is saved, do you believe they are able to make moral choices? Seems to me that Joshua believed they could. He even believed they could choose who they could serve. That's a pretty huge decision, if you ask me.

There are two forms of God's Soverignty, One is his Ultimate Sovereignty over his creation, the other his his Moral Soverignty. We are not some mindless automatons programmed to act in a particular way. Unlike the animals we have conscience, and the ability to know right from wrong. God gave us that ability, and permits us to make choices, even if they are sometime the wrong ones. Why? Because through the consequences of our actions, we can see God magnified. However, to have this believe that every single thing is micromanaged is to say that God determines to move us in a direction, and if that direction is Sin, then one must then conclude that God determines, and pushes us into Sin. I'm sorry, but I can't buy that as it is just incongruent with God's character.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 11:10 PM
Read Psalm 139. David gives a lot of clarity in this Psalm about God's sovereignty and omniscience. Also read Paul's Epistles.What makes you think I haven't read them? We should read all of scripture and base our doctrine on all of scripture as a whole, friend.


God knows everything. He is omniscient. Nothing slips by him, and nothing happens unless he has ordained for it to happen.I can't buy this. It makes no sense whatsoever. Are you really thinking this through? By saying that you are suggesting that rape, murder, child molesting and other abominable acts are all ordained by God to happen. Come on. That is utterly ridiculous. Why would God punish people for doing things that He ordained? That would make no sense at all. Why would God command all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and then ordain most of them to not repent? Again, that would make no sense.

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 11:16 PM
There are two forms of God's Soverignty, One is his Ultimate Sovereignty over his creation, the other his his Moral Soverignty. We are not some mindless automatons programmed to act in a particular way. Unlike the animals we have conscience, and the ability to know right from wrong. God gave us that ability, and permits us to make choices, even if they are sometime the wrong ones. Why? Because through the consequences of our actions, we can see God magnified.

However, to have this believe that every single thing is micromanaged is to say that God determines to move us in a direction, and if that direction is Sin, then one must then conclude that God determines, and pushes us into Sin. I'm sorry, but I can't buy that as it is just incongruent with God's character.


I think you have made some good points Veratax. Micromanaged is probably a bad way of looking at it, I'd say in control would be a better word. I can only speak for myself in saying that I believe that God has sole control over everything we do. There is nothing that is beyond his control or knowledge. I don't think this points to God being some sort of pointy haired boss who tells his children what to do every second of the day, just signifies God being in control of everything..and having knowledge and ultimate control of what has happened and what will happen within our lifetimes.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 11:19 PM
This is precisely one of the main reasons I left the reformed faith. We were taught to study the scriptures, but evangelism was NEVER hardly even hinted at as being important.That is not surprising to me at all. I grew up in a Reformed church and they had missionaries. I have no idea why. Just for show, I suppose. There is no need to worry about evangelism if everything is predetermined. The weird thing was that despite having missionaries overseas the church made little to no effort to evangelize people locally in the community. If you showed up to church, fine, if not, they wouldn't go out of their way to invite you back. I stopped going there when I was 17 or so and no one even noticed. While I went there, no one shared the gospel with me. Why? Because of their doctrine. If I was chosen, then I would believe and if I wasn't I wouldn't, so why should they worry about it? They made no effort to bring in new people, either. It was more like a country club for the elite chosen than it was a church.


I think that sets a bad example. But this is the consequence of believing as Roger does. If you believe God orchestrates everything in your life, then what conclusion can there be, but that God will save whom he will save whether I witness or not?Exactly.


There are two forms of God's Soverignty, One is his Ultimate Sovereignty over his creation, the other his his Moral Soverignty. We are not some mindless automatons programmed to act in a particular way. Unlike the animals we have conscience, and the ability to know right from wrong. God gave us that ability, and permits us to make choices, even if they are sometime the wrong ones. Why? Because through the consequences of our actions, we can see God magnified. However, to have this believe that every single thing is micromanaged is to say that God determines to move us in a direction, and if that direction is Sin, then one must then conclude that God determines, and pushes us into Sin. I'm sorry, but I can't buy that as it is just incongruent with God's character.I completely agree.

John146
Nov 3rd 2008, 11:22 PM
I think you have made some good points Veratax. Micromanaged is probably a bad way of looking at it, I'd say in control would be a better word. I can only speak for myself in saying that I believe that God has sole control over everything we do. I really don't think there is anything that is beyond his control or knowledge. I don't think this points to God being some sort of pointy haired boss who tells his children what to do every second of the day, just signifies God being in control of everything..and having knowledge and ultimate control of what has happened and what will happen within our lifetimes.God controlling everything and God allowing things to happen is not the same thing. It seems like you can't tell the difference between those two concepts, unless I'm reading you wrong. Yes, He is in control. He is sovereign over all things. No one is arguing against that. I believe the reason that God allows people to reject Christ and to be condemned is not because He planned it that way, but because He wants people to freely and willfully come to Him once they hear the word of God. He wants people to willingly love Him and not force them to. The very idea of love is that it is a choice and is not something that can be forced.

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

You seem to think it was His will from the beginning for them to reject Him. But that would contradict what we read in passages like Matthew 23:37-38.

Friend of I AM
Nov 3rd 2008, 11:34 PM
The very idea of love is that it is a choice and is not something that can be forced.


I agree with you here. But God knows who loves him and who doesn't right? Are you of the belief that God isn't omniscient? It would seem so based on your testimonies above. Does not forcing his Love/Grace negate God being in control of all things..and working them for the ultimate good of those who love him?

RogerW
Nov 4th 2008, 01:07 AM
This is precisely one of the main reasons I left the reformed faith. We were taught to study the scriptures, but evangelism was NEVER hardly even hinted at as being important. I think that sets a bad example. But this is the consequence of believing as Roger does. If you believe God orchestrates everything in your life, then what conclusion can there be, but that God will save whom he will save whether I witness or not?

Beloved Veretax,

I don't know what kind of garbage you were spoon fed in your experience with Reformed faith, but I can tell you without apology you have no right to make such sweeping statements regarding myself and those of like Christian faith. If you were never taught to study the Scriptures, and never taught the importance of evangelism then you may have been in a church that professed being Reformed (like many I have seen), but who in fact have little, if any, real understanding of the Sovereign Grace of God. It's really too bad you were so badly deceived by a legalistic form of head knowledge without heart application. Now sadly, it seems because of this early deception you have thrown out the baby with the bath water, so now you embrace a dispensational free grace doctrine more unbiblical than the so-called Reformed doctrines you appear to loathe.

Understanding and embracing with the heart the Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace causes incredible hunger for the Word of God. Understanding that all of God's elect MUST hear, and be converted before Christ will come again to claim His Bride, puts evangelism at the top of the list for those of truly Reformed faith. Not only is it exciting to preach the Word unto all peoples, but the joy of seeing God's people come to Him for life is incredible, and for this cause sending missionaries unto all the world too is of utmost priority, as well as fully supporting those beloved brothers we send out.

So if you want to speak in general terms about a pathetic so-called Reformed church you may have had the displeasure of being associated with, then by all means, if you must, beat them to death. But please speak carefully when speaking in such broad sweeping terms as to include every member of the Reformed faith. You are speaking against brothers and sisters in the Lord.



There are two forms of God's Soverignty, One is his Ultimate Sovereignty over his creation, the other his his Moral Soverignty.

Is this the kind of pablum you were fed all those years?



We are not some mindless automatons programmed to act in a particular way. Unlike the animals we have conscience, and the ability to know right from wrong. God gave us that ability, and permits us to make choices, even if they are sometime the wrong ones. Why? Because through the consequences of our actions, we can see God magnified. However, to have this believe that every single thing is micromanaged is to say that God determines to move us in a direction, and if that direction is Sin, then one must then conclude that God determines, and pushes us into Sin. I'm sorry, but I can't buy that as it is just incongruent with God's character.

Are you not the one who began a thread on the one time line? Am I confusing you with someone else? If God is in complete control, this automatically means that God pushes us into sin? Where does this line of reasoning come from? Of course we make choices freely, everday. We freely choose according to our nature, or natural tendencies. If we are in bondage to Satan, sin and death we will always freely choose disobedience, hating God. When we have been made free in Christ, we freely choose to turn to Him for life, loving Him more than anything else. And this makes us mindless automatons? This reasoning is beyond you...where is it coming from? I'm very concerned.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 4th 2008, 01:22 AM
That is not surprising to me at all. I grew up in a Reformed church and they had missionaries. I have no idea why. Just for show, I suppose. There is no need to worry about evangelism if everything is predetermined. The weird thing was that despite having missionaries overseas the church made little to no effort to evangelize people locally in the community. If you showed up to church, fine, if not, they wouldn't go out of their way to invite you back. I stopped going there when I was 17 or so and no one even noticed. While I went there, no one shared the gospel with me. Why? Because of their doctrine. If I was chosen, then I would believe and if I wasn't I wouldn't, so why should they worry about it? They made no effort to bring in new people, either. It was more like a country club for the elite chosen than it was a church.

I'm real sorry to hear you had such a bad experience in any church. But I can assure you, you may have been in a church that went by the name Reformed, through a bit of head knowledge, but you were not in a Reformed Church that embraced the Soverign Grace of God with its heart and soul. At the heart of truly Reformed doctrine is our need and His mercy and grace. The main complaints from our church by a few is that they get tired of hearing how far we are fallen, and how hopeless we are without His grace. The type of church you describe can be likened to the frozen chosen. Sadly this is one of the problems with those who embrace the Reformed Doctrine with their heads, and it never penetrates their hearts. Some Reformed churches began to think it's what we know, rather than Who we know that gets us to heaven.

I'll give you the same admonition that I gave Veretax, be careful when speaking with broad statements, because we don't want to speak evil against brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 4th 2008, 01:25 AM
God controlling everything and God allowing things to happen is not the same thing. It seems like you can't tell the difference between those two concepts, unless I'm reading you wrong. Yes, He is in control. He is sovereign over all things. No one is arguing against that. I believe the reason that God allows people to reject Christ and to be condemned is not because He planned it that way, but because He wants people to freely and willfully come to Him once they hear the word of God. He wants people to willingly love Him and not force them to. The very idea of love is that it is a choice and is not something that can be forced.

Eric,

Of course He does! But none will! Fallen man will always freely, and willfully choose to reject Him, for they are in bondage to Satan, sin and death. Unless Christ breaks that bondage through the power of His Word and Spirit then no man can freely come to Him for life, because no man has any desire to come to Him freely for life.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 4th 2008, 01:34 AM
This is precisely one of the main reasons I left the reformed faith. We were taught to study the scriptures, but evangelism was NEVER hardly even hinted at as being important. I think that sets a bad example. But this is the consequence of believing as Roger does. If you believe God orchestrates everything in your life, then what conclusion can there be, but that God will save whom he will save whether I witness or not?

There are two forms of God's Soverignty, One is his Ultimate Sovereignty over his creation, the other his his Moral Soverignty. We are not some mindless automatons programmed to act in a particular way. Unlike the animals we have conscience, and the ability to know right from wrong. God gave us that ability, and permits us to make choices, even if they are sometime the wrong ones. Why? Because through the consequences of our actions, we can see God magnified. However, to have this believe that every single thing is micromanaged is to say that God determines to move us in a direction, and if that direction is Sin, then one must then conclude that God determines, and pushes us into Sin. I'm sorry, but I can't buy that as it is just incongruent with God's character.


Beloved Veretax,

I don't know what kind of garbage you were spoon fed in your experience with Reformed faith, but I can tell you without apology you have no right to make such sweeping statements regarding myself and those of like Christian faith. If you were never taught to study the Scriptures, and never taught the importance of evangelism then you may have been in a church that professed being Reformed (like many I have seen), but who in fact have little, if any, real understanding of the Sovereign Grace of God. It's really too bad you were so badly deceived by a legalistic form of head knowledge without heart application. Now sadly, it seems because of this early deception you have thrown out the baby with the bath water, so now you embrace a dispensational free grace doctrine more unbiblical than the so-called Reformed doctrines you appear to loathe.

Understanding and embracing with the heart the Reformed Doctrines of Sovereign Grace causes incredible hunger for the Word of God. Understanding that all of God's elect MUST hear, and be converted before Christ will come again to claim His Bride, puts evangelism at the top of the list for those of truly Reformed faith. Not only is it exciting to preach the Word unto all peoples, but the joy of seeing God's people come to Him for life is incredible, and for this cause sending missionaries unto all the world too is of utmost priority, as well as fully supporting those beloved brothers we send out.

So if you want to speak in general terms about a pathetic so-called Reformed church you may have had the displeasure of being associated with, then by all means, if you must, beat them to death. But please speak carefully when speaking in such broad sweeping terms as to include every member of the Reformed faith. You are speaking against brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Is this the kind of pablum you were fed all those years?

Are you not the one who began a thread on the one time line? Am I confusing you with someone else? If God is in complete control, this automatically means that God pushes us into sin? Where does this line of reasoning come from? Of course we make choices freely, everday. We freely choose according to our nature, or natural tendencies. If we are in bondage to Satan, sin and death we will always freely choose disobedience, hating God. When we have been made free in Christ, we freely choose to turn to Him for life, loving Him more than anything else. And this makes us mindless automatons? This reasoning is beyond you...where is it coming from? I'm very concerned.

Many Blessings,
RW

Beloved Veretax,

I'm afraid I had you confused with another poster. After some research I've discovered you were not the one who began the thread on the one time line. I apologize for confusing you with someone else, but I am still very concerned about how you interpret doctrine because of a bad childhood church experience.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 03:52 AM
I agree with you here. But God knows who loves him and who doesn't right? Are you of the belief that God isn't omniscient? It would seem so based on your testimonies above.Of course He is omniscient. What did I say to make you think I thought otherwise?


Does not forcing his Love/Grace negate God being in control of all things..and working them for the ultimate good of those who love him?I don't see your point here. He certainly works for the good of those who love Him. Do people automatically love Him or is it a choice?

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 03:55 AM
I'm real sorry to hear you had such a bad experience in any church. But I can assure you, you may have been in a church that went by the name Reformed, through a bit of head knowledge, but you were not in a Reformed Church that embraced the Soverign Grace of God with its heart and soul. At the heart of truly Reformed doctrine is our need and His mercy and grace. The main complaints from our church by a few is that they get tired of hearing how far we are fallen, and how hopeless we are without His grace. The type of church you describe can be likened to the frozen chosen. Sadly this is one of the problems with those who embrace the Reformed Doctrine with their heads, and it never penetrates their hearts. Some Reformed churches began to think it's what we know, rather than Who we know that gets us to heaven.

I'll give you the same admonition that I gave Veretax, be careful when speaking with broad statements, because we don't want to speak evil against brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Many Blessings,
RWIt's funny that you act like you know so much about a church that you never attended, yet one that I did attend. It was a true Reformed church regardless of what you say.

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 04:00 AM
Eric,

Of course He does! But none will! Fallen man will always freely, and willfully choose to reject Him, for they are in bondage to Satan, sin and death. Unless Christ breaks that bondage through the power of His Word and Spirit then no man can freely come to Him for life, because no man has any desire to come to Him freely for life.

Blessings,
RWThe word of God can melt the heart of any person in the world who hears it, but it is the responsibility of all men to respond by choosing to repent and believe in Christ. Your doctrine has people condemned for not believing in Christ while supposedly not ever having the ability to believe in Christ. I can see that you have no intention of ever offering a legitimate explanation for how that can be the case. I believe your doctrine promotes elitism, a country club mentality and a sense of superiority over those wicked heathen who God decided to not give any chance to be saved. You have God having people cast into the lake of fire, not because they rebelliously and foolishly chose to reject Christ, but because God decided that they should not have any chance to be saved. This puts the responsibility for unbelievers not believing in Christ and being punished for that on God rather than on man where it belongs.

Redimido
Nov 4th 2008, 04:55 AM
The word of God can melt the heart of any person in the world who hears it, but it is the responsibility of all men to respond by choosing to repent and believe in Christ. Amen! And those he does it to will come to him.


Your doctrine has people condemned for not believing in Christ while supposedly not ever having the ability to believe in Christ. I can see that you have no intention of ever offering a legitimate explanation for how that can be the case. Again as a said in my earlier post men are unable to come to Christ because they hate him. Just like joshes brothers hated him and where unable to speak kindly to him. That all that we mean the inability. How do you define inability?


I believe your doctrine promotes elitism, a country club mentality and a sense of superiority over those wicked heathen who God decided to not give any chance to be saved. How can I think that I am superior to those that will be in hell if the only difference beween us is God grace. I should be in there with them. I hated God , I wanted nothing to dowith him and never would apart from him reganerating me and yet he still saved me. I think this is the most humbling truth in all of scripture.


You have God having people cast into the lake of fire, not because they rebelliously and foolishly chose to reject Christ, but because God decided that they should not have any chance to be saved. This puts the responsibility for unbelievers not believing in Christ and being punished for that on God rather than on man where it belongs.Unless you’re a hyper Calvinist we all agree that god cast people into hell because they rebelliously and foolishly chose to reject Christ and sinning against him.

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 10:50 AM
Greetings Firstfruits,

Why didn't they believe what they heard? You've shown us the verse (Ro
10:17) that clearly tells us "faith comes by hearing the Word." So why do some hear the gospel (Word), and remain in unbelief? Is there something wrong with the Word or the hearer?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The passages I gave from John 10 show us why. Because hearing with physical ears will not bring one to faith. Unless we are given to hear His voice, because we are among His sheep, we cannot believe. Remember even the devils believe and tremble, but mere assent that He is the Christ is not enough to give the hearer saving faith unto salvation.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

In the parable they hear enough, like the devils, to assent to the facts about who Christ is; i.e. "they believed for a time", but they never were given ears to hear His voice through saving faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Many Blessings,
RW

These are the reasons that Jesus has given why not all believe;

Not understanding the word.

Tribulation and persecution because of the word.

The cares of this world, its riches etc.

These can affect us all.

We do not all fit into Matthew 13:23.

Mt 13:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Mt 13:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 11:06 AM
Well I was going to stop posting until I read this post...:) Let me clarify a bit more on what you've posted. I think Paul was speaking of his freedom in Christ, as oppossed to his own will being sovereign and above that of God's.

Let's read the rest of the verses...

1 Cor 9:18-21
18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Why would Paul exclaim himself to be under anything, if he himself had no limitations imposed upon himself. We see in verse 21 that he states himself as being free from all men(not God's Will) and under the "law of Christ" which brings him freedom. Thus Paul is not walking unto himself, he is walking in Christ which brings him freedom from the bondage of the law that he was under. I don't believe Paul exclaims anywhere in his epistles about his inherent sovereignty outside of God's Will. In fact he states in 2 Corinthians 13:8 that nothing can be done against the "Truth", thus once again signifying God's Will being above that of all of his creations.

All this being said, none of what has been written in this post or others negates the testimony of man having choices. What it does demonstrate is that God himself is in the constant process of Willing people to himself by his grace and power through Christ Jesus. Hope this clarifies things with you and others. If not feel free to let me know.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

Thank you Stephen,

I am sure you will agree that although God is willing all men to himself, not all will come.

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Men will perish, not all will repent. Not all will do the will of God.

God bless you! and thanks for continuing here.

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 4th 2008, 01:13 PM
Just throwing this out there:

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Who resists God's will? The answer implied here is no one. Even when people are going against God, it is still his will. It is all part of God's plan and purpose.

The word "will" in this verse is "boulema" which means council or purpose (ie. his plan).

The other kind of "will" is "thelema" which means God's will or inclination - that is, what he wants of us and what he wants to do. (ie. Matthew 6:10 Thy will be done...)

Legoman

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 02:59 PM
Unless you’re a hyper Calvinist we all agree that god cast people into hell because they rebelliously and foolishly chose to reject Christ and sinning against him.But you believe that they were not able to make any other choice, don't you?

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 03:03 PM
Just throwing this out there:

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Who resists God's will? The answer implied here is no one. Even when people are going against God, it is still his will. It is all part of God's plan and purpose.

The word "will" in this verse is "boulema" which means council or purpose (ie. his plan).

The other kind of "will" is "thelema" which means God's will or inclination - that is, what he wants of us and what he wants to do. (ie. Matthew 6:10 Thy will be done...)

LegomanIf it is God's will for people to reject Him then why was He grieved over having made mankind in Noah's day? Why is it that He doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked if it was His will for them to die in a lost state? Why would He punish people for doing what He wanted them to do?

legoman
Nov 4th 2008, 03:29 PM
John146,

What would Romans 9:19 mean then?

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Do you believe that some have resisted God's will (greek boulema - plan/purpose)?

Romans 9:19 is stating that no one has resisted his will. Just curious, how else could this be interpreted?

Legoman

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 03:52 PM
John146,

What would Romans 9:19 mean then?

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Do you believe that some have resisted God's will (greek boulema - plan/purpose)?

Romans 9:19 is stating that no one has resisted his will. Just curious, how else could this be interpreted?

Legoman1 Tim 2 (KJV)
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim 2 (NASB)
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

The Greek word for "will" or "desires" in that verse is thelō, which has a few different possible meanings, which include "to desire, to wish".

As you pointed out, the word used in Romans 9:19 is "boulēma" (Strong's G1013).

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

So, my view is that it is His desire (thelo) for all to be saved but not His will (boulema). If it was His will (boulema) then everyone would be saved. Of course, that is not the case. There is plenty of evidence to show that it is indeed His desire for all people to be saved because it says that He was grieved when people rejected Him (Gen 6) and it says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The Lord doesn't want anyone to die in a lost state. He wants everyone to turn from their wickedness and turn to Him for eternal life. But He gives man the responsibility to make that choice to either remain in their wickedness or to turn from it.

Now that I've answered your question, can you answer mine from my previous post?

Friend of I AM
Nov 4th 2008, 04:00 PM
Of course He is omniscient. What did I say to make you think I thought otherwise?


You asked me in post 185 if God has allowed various acts of wrath in response to me stating that he is omniscient. You also said that it was ridiculous that God would allow certain acts of violence to occur, thus giving the impression that you believed God was not omniscient.

That being said, we as his creations do have a limited amount of choice within the sovereignty that represents God, this sovereignty allows us to act with mercy or act with wrath given any amount of circumstances that occur.

Let's go a step further though. If God is Love, and there is no love without choice, then indeed the only thing this tells us is that God is the only one who is truly loving, and thus he is the only one who can truly enable one to make the right moral choices within their lives. Now we can indeed make choices that are not deemed morally right, as the Apostle Paul has stated in his epistles.."everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial." But none of these choices will impact God's sovereignty over his creations. Or as it is implied by Paul in Romans 9:19 no one can resist his Will. How then can anyone claim to have a choice outside that which God has willed them? Simple answer is, they can't.

So sometimes we come to God, and explicity ask him how we should act going forward, sometimes we don't...and unfortunately not coming to God can often lead us down the wrong path. Despite our coming to God or not regarding what choice to make, God knows what choice will be made ahead of time based on his omniscience..and will work whatever choice we make for the good of those who love him.

God bless with Love,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 04:13 PM
John146,

What would Romans 9:19 mean then?

Romans 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Do you believe that some have resisted God's will (greek boulema - plan/purpose)?

Romans 9:19 is stating that no one has resisted his will. Just curious, how else could this be interpreted?

Legoman

According to the following scripture what does it mean to resist the Spirit?

Acts 7:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Acts 7:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Acts 7:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Here it is showing that they were not doing according to Gods will. They were disobedient.

From the time of Adam and Eve this has not changed, man does and will resist,disobey the will of God.

Gods will cannot be changed and there is a consequence for disobedience.

God wills us to do that which is righteous, we however tend to do that which is unrighteous. God would not cause us to sin, there is no sin in God.

Jas 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 4th 2008, 04:21 PM
Again, you are not answering the question as to WHY God would grieve and get angry towards people merely for not doing what they are supposedly not capable of doing in the first place (repenting and believing).


Hey Eric,

I wanted to come back to this one and I have given it a bit of thought, and I'm thinking my thought would be this on the subject. I believe God grieves due to the fact that even though he has given many of his children the ability to choose between good and evil, many choose evil over good. I think this is stated very well in the following verses from Romans 9

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

So yeah, I understand why he grieves. This was probably the same reason why he grieved during the time of Noah, as he was only able to find one righteous man out of the whole lot of inhabitants on earth. Now if you want to take this a step further regarding the whole free will discussion, one would have to say that he "willed" Noah and his family to be righteous in order to save mankind during the time.

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 04:21 PM
You asked me in post 185 if God has allowed various acts of wrath in response to me stating that he is omniscient. You also said that it was ridiculous that God would allow certain acts of violence to occur, thus giving the impression that you believed God was not omniscient. Let me clarify. He can allow, at times, certain acts of violence to occur or even cause them Himself for His purposes. My point was to say that He does not cause all acts of violence and abominable things to happen. If He did then what reason would He have to punish anyone if they were only doing what He wanted them to do? Being all knowing does not mean He causes every single thing that happens to happen.


That being said, we as his creations do have a limited amount of choice within the sovereignty that represents God, this sovereignty allows us to act with mercy or act with wrath given any amount of circumstances that occur.

Let's go a step further though. If God is Love, and there is no love without choice, then indeed the only thing this tells us is that God is the only one who is truly loving, and thus he is the only one who can truly enable one to make the right moral choices within their lives. Now we can indeed make choices that are not deemed morally right, as the Apostle Paul has stated in his epistles.."everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial." But none of these choices will impact God's sovereignty over his creations. Or as it is implied by Paul in Romans 9:19 no one can resist his Will. How then can anyone claim to have a choice outside that which God has willed them? Simple answer is, they can't. You, for some reason, seem to believe that God wills every single thing that happens, every thought people have and everything they do? Is that right? If so, scripture clearly doesn't teach that. It would be senseless for God to get angry at people and punish them for doing what He wanted them to do.


So sometimes we come to God, and explicity ask him how we should act going forward, sometimes we don't...and unfortunately not coming to God can often lead us down the wrong path. Despite our coming to God or not regarding what choice to make, God knows what choice will be made ahead of time based on his omniscience..and will work whatever choice we make for the good of those who love him. Again, you're speaking in terms of what God does for those who love Him. Believers. I'm not talking about that. I'm only talking in terms of whether all people have the ability to decide whether to believe in Christ or not and I believe that all people do have that ability.

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 04:25 PM
Hey Eric,

I wanted to come back to this one and I have given it a bit of thought, and I'm thinking my thought would be this on the subject. I believe God grieves due to the fact that even though he has given many of his children the ability to choose between good and evil, many choose evil over good. I think this is stated very well in the following verses from Romans 9

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

So yeah, I understand why he grieves. This was probably the same reason why he grieved during the time of Noah, as he was only able to find one righteous man out of the whole lot of inhabitants on earth. Now if you want to take this a step further regarding the whole free will discussion, one would have to say that he "willed" Noah and his family to be righteous in order to save mankind during the time.Stephen,

I can't follow your line of thought. It doesn't make sense to me. First, you say that God gives people the ability to choose between good and evil. Then you say that He willed Noah and his family to be righteous as if they had no choice in the matter. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Eric

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 04:31 PM
Hey Eric,

I wanted to come back to this one and I have given it a bit of thought, and I'm thinking my thought would be this on the subject. I believe God grieves due to the fact that even though he has given many of his children the ability to choose between good and evil, many choose evil over good. I think this is stated very well in the following verses from Romans 9

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

So yeah, I understand why he grieves. This was probably the same reason why he grieved during the time of Noah, as he was only able to find one righteous man out of the whole lot of inhabitants on earth. Now if you want to take this a step further regarding the whole free will discussion, one would have to say that he "willed" Noah and his family to be righteous in order to save mankind during the time.

I believe it was Gods will that all that would hear Noah would go into the ark and be saved, why then would he will them not to do so?

When Jonah went to Ninevah why did God not destroy Ninevah?

Why did God give them choices when there were no choices?

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 4th 2008, 04:46 PM
Let me clarify. He can allow, at times, certain acts of violence to occur or even cause them Himself for His purposes. My point was to say that He does not cause all acts of violence and abominable things to happen. If He did then what reason would He have to punish anyone if they were only doing what He wanted them to do? Being all knowing does not mean He causes every single thing that happens to happen.

You, for some reason, seem to believe that God wills every single thing that happens, every thought people have and everything they do? Is that right? If so, scripture clearly doesn't teach that. It would be senseless for God to get angry at people and punish them for doing what He wanted them to do.

Again, you're speaking in terms of what God does for those who love Him. Believers. I'm not talking about that. I'm only talking in terms of whether all people have the ability to decide whether to believe in Christ or not and I believe that all people do have that ability.

The only thing that has been stated within this thread by myself is that God's will is sovereign above men's. It has also been stated that God is omniscient, thus knows our every thought and every choice we will make in our lifetime. I've stated that quite frankly in one post that I don't know how to completely reconcile how God knows every choice we will make, and how at the same time he is able to give us a choice in the matter of moral decisions. That is something that I just leave up to my faith, as I am not God and I can't account for everything that he is able to do with his omipotence and omniscience.

I don't know how you have translated all of this to mean "man has no choice." What has been stated in this thread many times though is that our choice is not equal to that of God's. That being said, do you truly believe that you and others possess a will/choice that can overcome the will of God, and lead you to salvation without his guidance?

legoman
Nov 4th 2008, 04:53 PM
Now that I've answered your question, can you answer mine from my previous post?

But you didn't really answer the question about Romans 9:19. It states "Who has resisted God's will (boulema - purpose, plan)?" The surrounding verses and context make it clear that no one has resisted his plan.

Are you suggesting that some people have resisited his plan? Because that is not what Romans 9:19 says.

Legoman

Redimido
Nov 4th 2008, 04:54 PM
But you believe that they were not able to make any other choice, don't you? Yes, but not because God made them that way or because he prevents them. The only thing that prevents them form coming to Christ is there utter hate him. How can some one how hate God with every fiber of his being with every beat of his heart come to Christ? The only difference is that you believe some will want to come to Christ and some never will, where as I believe that none will ever love Christ and so come to him.

Friend of I AM
Nov 4th 2008, 05:01 PM
Stephen,

I can't follow your line of thought. It doesn't make sense to me. First, you say that God gives people the ability to choose between good and evil. Then you say that He willed Noah and his family to be righteous as if they had no choice in the matter. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Eric

So it wasn't of God's Will that Noah and his family, and the earth were saved? This was done completely by the will and choice of Noah, is that what you are saying?

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 06:39 PM
Does God expect us to do his will willingly or against our will?

Mt 12:50 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

According to the following everything we do should be done willingly.

1 Chron 28:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=13&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Ps 110:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=110&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Is 1:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Heb 13:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

1 Pet 5:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=60&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

You can be willingly disobedient.

2 Pet 3:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

By being disobedient to the will of God we are being proud or selfwilled.

Ps 40:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=40&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Ps 101:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=101&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.

Ps 119:21 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=119&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=21) Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.

Ps 138:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=19&CHAP=138&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.

Prov 16:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

Prov 16:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=16&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

If we are serving God against our will then is our heart right with God?

Whosoever will!!!!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 07:04 PM
But you didn't really answer the question about Romans 9:19. It states "Who has resisted God's will (boulema - purpose, plan)?" The surrounding verses and context make it clear that no one has resisted his plan.

Are you suggesting that some people have resisited his plan? Because that is not what Romans 9:19 says.

LegomanDid you read my post carefully? It doesn't appear that you did. I am not suggesting that anyone can resist His plans and purposes. I don't believe it was His plan to only save relatively few people while not giving the rest any chance to be saved. As it says in 1 Tim 2:4, He desires for all people to be saved. He desires for all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9). But not all people do repent and are saved. What does this mean? That God gives people the responsibility to choose to repent and believe or not.

Now, can you please answer the questions that I asked earlier. Here they are again:

If it is God's will for people to reject Him then why was He grieved over having made mankind in Noah's day? Why is it that He doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked if it was His will for them to die in a lost state? Why would He punish people for doing what He wanted them to do?

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 07:07 PM
So it wasn't of God's Will that Noah and his family, and the earth were saved? This was done completely by the will and choice of Noah, is that what you are saying?I believe that God desired everyone to be saved, including Noah and his family. I believe Noah and his family were the only ones that chose to believe in God rather than choosing their own evil ways. Why would God had grieved over having made mankind if it was His will for all of them except Noah and his family to reject Him? That wouldn't make any sense.

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 07:13 PM
The only thing that has been stated within this thread by myself is that God's will is sovereign above men's. It has also been stated that God is omniscient, thus knows our every thought and every choice we will make in our lifetime. I've stated that quite frankly in one post that I don't know how to completely reconcile how God knows every choice we will make, and how at the same time he is able to give us a choice in the matter of moral decisions. That is something that I just leave up to my faith, as I am not God and I can't account for everything that he is able to do with his omipotence and omniscience.

I don't know how you have translated all of this to mean "man has no choice." What has been stated in this thread many times though is that our choice is not equal to that of God's. That being said, do you truly believe that you and others possess a will/choice that can overcome the will of God, and lead you to salvation without his guidance?No. I believe that everyone needs God's intervention in order to be saved. We, of course, needed Jesus to die for our sins in order to be saved. We need to hear the word of God (faith comes by hearing...). And we need the Holy Spirit to speak to our consciences and hearts to convict us of our sins.

Where you and I differ, apparently, is that I believe all people can hear the word of God and feel the convicting power of the Spirit and respond with repentance and faith. But it's a choice that people are responsible to make. Many choose to reject the gospel and resist the Spirit. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14).

You, on the other hand, seem to think that salvation is limited to only some people with the rest never being given any opportunity to be saved. If I'm not correctly portraying your beliefs then please clarify.

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 07:25 PM
No. I believe that everyone needs God's intervention in order to be saved. We, of course, needed Jesus to die for our sins in order to be saved. We need to hear the word of God (faith comes by hearing...). And we need the Holy Spirit to speak to our consciences and hearts to convict us of our sins.

Where you and I differ, apparently, is that I believe all people can hear the word of God and feel the convicting power of the Spirit and respond with repentance and faith. But it's a choice that people are responsible to make. Many choose to reject the gospel and resist the Spirit. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14).

You, on the other hand, seem to think that salvation is limited to only some people with the rest never being given any opportunity to be saved. If I'm not correctly portraying your beliefs then please clarify.

Just some extra scriptures to show that what God has offered is for all.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jn 5:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Whosoever will!!!

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 07:27 PM
Yes, but not because God made them that way or because he prevents them. The only thing that prevents them form coming to Christ is there utter hate him. How can some one how hate God with every fiber of his being with every beat of his heart come to Christ? The only difference is that you believe some will want to come to Christ and some never will, where as I believe that none will ever love Christ and so come to him.At least you have a grasp of where the differences in our views lie. If you read Romans 1:18-32 you should see that people become vain in their imaginations and decide to worship the creature more than the Creator and decide that it's not worthwhile to thank God, glorify Him and retain Him in their knowledge.

God has made Himself known to all people. People choose to stray from Him and choose to hate Him. They aren't born that way. Yes, people are born with a natural tendency to sin, but it's a stretch to turn that into people being born with a natural tendency to hate God with all their hearts. I don't believe that is the case. Do you remember ever hating God even before you were a Christian? I didn't. I know plenty of non-Christians who don't hate God. They just don't think it's worthwhile to give their lives to Him because they love their sinful lifestyles too much to give them up.

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 08:15 PM
At least you have a grasp of where the differences in our views lie. If you read Romans 1:18-32 you should see that people become vain in their imaginations and decide to worship the creature more than the Creator and decide that it's not worthwhile to thank God, glorify Him and retain Him in their knowledge.

God has made Himself known to all people. People choose to stray from Him and choose to hate Him. They aren't born that way. Yes, people are born with a natural tendency to sin, but it's a stretch to turn that into people being born with a natural tendency to hate God with all their hearts. I don't believe that is the case. Do you remember ever hating God even before you were a Christian? I didn't. I know plenty of non-Christians who don't hate God. They just don't think it's worthwhile to give their lives to Him because they love their sinful lifestyles too much to give them up.

Amen to that!!!

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 4th 2008, 10:03 PM
No. I believe that everyone needs God's intervention in order to be saved.


That's good. Then we can agree that God is indeed directing us to make choices in regards to our salvation. Would you agree then that it is of God's Will to allow people to make choices that go against this direction?




You, on the other hand, seem to think that salvation is limited to only some people with the rest never being given any opportunity to be saved. If I'm not correctly portraying your beliefs then please clarify.


I think God has Willed all people to be saved. I think God will have mercy on all men to be quite frank. If you think about it, what benefit does God have in any man's destruction? What will it achieve for him? Nothing much. So this is where the whole "mercy" argument came in at the beginning of the thread. Do we choose to receive God's mercy? Of course not. God gracefully gives us his mercy through the cross, and he gives it out to whomever he pleases, when he pleases. How then can we even assert at any point that our salvation is dependant solely upon our choice?

I don't think anyone in here would not have mercy and compassion on an individual who has gone through all kinds of problems in their life, simply because they made a choice to do the wrong thing against them or someone else within their lives at some point. Think of the parable of the lost son. I think God's mercy and love know no bounds, which is why I think at times we really have to get rid of the idea that we are in control of our destinies, and assign all responsability to God in our walks. As stated before, this "dieing to self" doesn't mean that one has become complacent, and no longer does good. What it does mean is that they are confident in God, and thus free of the worry of constantly thinking they'll make the wrong choices in their lives.

Friend of I AM
Nov 4th 2008, 10:12 PM
I believe that God desired everyone to be saved, including Noah and his family. I believe Noah and his family were the only ones that chose to believe in God rather than choosing their own evil ways. Why would God had grieved over having made mankind if it was His will for all of them except Noah and his family to reject Him? That wouldn't make any sense.

You're taking what I've said out of context here. I believe God grieved over the rest of the people of the earth not being saved(in the sense that we know it) but at the same time had Willed who would and wouldn't come with Noah after the flood occurred. How to reconcile these two things? I have no idea. To be quite frank, neither do you. God is an infinitely powerful being whose emotions, intellect, and knowledge are not entirely comprehendable to man. We run into problems when we try to completely enclose God into an envelope that makes him completely understandable to us. So your question of "why was God grieved" if he knows who is going to reject him is essentially like if I were to ask you.."how can God fit a camel through the eye of a needle?" The things that seem impossible and incomprehendable to man, are comprehendable/possible to God.

legoman
Nov 4th 2008, 10:21 PM
Did you read my post carefully? It doesn't appear that you did. I am not suggesting that anyone can resist His plans and purposes. I don't believe it was His plan to only save relatively few people while not giving the rest any chance to be saved. As it says in 1 Tim 2:4, He desires for all people to be saved. He desires for all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9). But not all people do repent and are saved. What does this mean? That God gives people the responsibility to choose to repent and believe or not.


Yes I read your whole response, but it was not clear. It sounded like you were saying people could still resist God's plan. But I see that is not what you meant. So in your opinion, God has a plan - no one shall resist it - but part of that plan is to give free will to people and let them make the decision alone and have all the responsibility. So in that sense God's desire(s) may or may not be met, but his plan will never be resisted. Am I correct in your understanding?



Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

So, my view is that it is His desire (thelo) for all to be saved but not His will (boulema). If it was His will (boulema) then everyone would be saved. Of course, that is not the case. There is plenty of evidence to show that it is indeed His desire for all people to be saved because it says that He was grieved when people rejected Him (Gen 6) and it says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked
An interesting point here is 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Notice that the word "willing" here comes from "boulomai" which is the root of "boulema". This is the same will (boulema) as in Romans 9:19. This is different from 1 Tim 2:4 which uses "thelo". Although even in that verse some translate it as "will", and some translate it as "desire".

Now given that none can resist his will (boulema), what should we make of 2 Peter 3:9?



Now, can you please answer the questions that I asked earlier. Here they are again:

If it is God's will for people to reject Him then why was He grieved over having made mankind in Noah's day? Why is it that He doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked if it was His will for them to die in a lost state? Why would He punish people for doing what He wanted them to do?God grieves because parts of his plan require discipline and evil, yet they are necessary to achieve his ultimate purpose. God is creating man in his image - he is not done yet.

God is binding men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them later.
YLT:Romans 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
KJV:Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NIV:Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The punishment will be Just and is necessary to achieve God's plan.

Let me ask this: do you think God is Just and will show mercy on all?

Legoman

Redimido
Nov 4th 2008, 10:45 PM
At least you have a grasp of where the differences in our views lie. If you read Romans 1:18-32 you should see that people become vain in their imaginations and decide to worship the creature more than the Creator and decide that it's not worthwhile to thank God, glorify Him and retain Him in their knowledge.

God has made Himself known to all people. People choose to stray from Him and choose to hate Him.Agreed.


They aren't born that way. Yes, people are born with a natural tendency to sin, but it's a stretch to turn that into people being born with a natural tendency to hate God with all their hearts. I don't believe that is the case I would say we are born with a stiff arm towards God. That’s getting into the whole original sin debate



Do you remember ever hating God even before you were a Christian? I didn't. I know plenty of non-Christians who don't hate God. They just don't think it's worthwhile to give their lives to Him because they love their sinful lifestyles too much to give them up.That’s all because of the grace of God. And you can see that in the very scripture you quoted. Paul says 3 times that god gave them over to sin.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;

Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

There hearts where already this wicked. They already hated God and wanted to do these things, but God's grace was restraining them from manifesting the desires of the heart. Because they do not Honor God he removes his grace from them allowing them to do what they wanted to do. It the same with us. The only reason we don't make Hitler look like a choir boy is because of the grace of God restraining us from doing. So that’s why hatred for God is more visible in some then others

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 12:50 PM
According to the following scripture when we were servants to sin we were free from the control of righteousness, does this mean we then had to choose to yield ourselves to righteousness or the will of God?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

If the following is our service to God, is it not by choice or by willingly giving ourselves to God?

Rom 12:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 5th 2008, 01:24 PM
According to the following scripture what does it mean to resist the Spirit?

Acts 7:51 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=51) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Acts 7:52 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Acts 7:53 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=53) Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Here it is showing that they were not doing according to Gods will. They were disobedient.

From the time of Adam and Eve this has not changed, man does and will resist,disobey the will of God.

Gods will cannot be changed and there is a consequence for disobedience.

God wills us to do that which is righteous, we however tend to do that which is unrighteous. God would not cause us to sin, there is no sin in God.

Jas 1:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Hi Firstfruits,

This is a good example of the difference between God's will (the final goal) and God's purpose (also called will - boulema, plan, intention, resolve).

To the question: Who has resisted God's will? The answer is: EVERYONE.

To the question: Who has resisted God's purpose (boulema)? The answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.

It is the second question that is asked in Romans 9:19. No one can resist his plan - everything is going according to God's plan.

God is using his plan to bring people in line with his will. Along the way, it may involve people going contrary to his will, but its all his plan.

Cheers,
Legoman

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 01:34 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

This is a good example of the difference between God's will (the final goal) and God's purpose (also called will - boulema, plan, intention, resolve).

To the question: Who has resisted God's will? The answer is: EVERYONE.

To the question: Who has resisted God's purpose (boulema)? The answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.

It is the second question that is asked in Romans 9:19. No one can resist his plan - everything is going according to God's plan.

God is using his plan to bring people in line with his will. Along the way, it may involve people going contrary to his will, but its all his plan.

Cheers,
Legoman

With regards to the following scripture I agree with you.

Is 55:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=55&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 02:25 PM
God grieves because parts of his plan require discipline and evil, yet they are necessary to achieve his ultimate purpose. God is creating man in his image - he is not done yet.


This is an excellent point and insight into this discussion legoman. I have to say that I agree with you for the most part. The example you've given above really explains why God was grieving during the time of Noah, as in the scripture it does go on to describe the statement "God saw the inherent wickedness of man" and then scripture goes on to say that he was grieving over this wickedness.

One thing I might add though is that there are times when it is truly difficult for us to understand exactly what God is feeling regarding a certain situation, and why he grieves over things he knows are already going happen, as sometimes scripture doesn't give us an exact explanation of this. Think of the example of Job, where God had declared him a "righteous man." We can see throughout most of God's testimony, that he was predominantly angry with Job until the end of the story, until he decided to demonstrate mercy on him. Now this doesn't mean that God didn't grieve Job's struggle at some point, but it does mean that sometimes there is more than meets the eye to what God is feeling during any given situation.

I think one poster put it best in another thread regarding a similar discussion(I'm paraphrasing)

"God is an infinite being, who possesses infinite amounts of emotion that he simultaneously is utilizing, so sometimes his actions/emotions can't be fully comprehended by us during various times within our lives."

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 02:35 PM
That's good. Then we can agree that God is indeed directing us to make choices in regards to our salvation. Would you agree then that it is of God's Will to allow people to make choices that go against this direction?Yes


I think God has Willed all people to be saved. I think God will have mercy on all men to be quite frank. If you think about it, what benefit does God have in any man's destruction? What will it achieve for him? Nothing much. So this is where the whole "mercy" argument came in at the beginning of the thread. Do we choose to receive God's mercy? Of course not. God gracefully gives us his mercy through the cross, and he gives it out to whomever he pleases, when he pleases. How then can we even assert at any point that our salvation is dependant solely upon our choice? Whoa. I didn't realize you were a universalist. You believe that all people will eventually be saved? Sorry, but that is clearly a false doctrine. Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day and will never have another chance at salvation. That is why it is so urgent to reach people with the gospel now before it is too late.

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jude 1
22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


I don't think anyone in here would not have mercy and compassion on an individual who has gone through all kinds of problems in their life, simply because they made a choice to do the wrong thing against them or someone else within their lives at some point. Think of the parable of the lost son. I think God's mercy and love know no bounds, which is why I think at times we really have to get rid of the idea that we are in control of our destinies, and assign all responsability to God in our walks. As stated before, this "dieing to self" doesn't mean that one has become complacent, and no longer does good. What it does mean is that they are confident in God, and thus free of the worry of constantly thinking they'll make the wrong choices in their lives.Your opinions don't line up with scripture. If someone goes their whole lives without believing in Christ, then they are condemned and will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity (Matt 13:42, Matt 13:50, Matt 25:41, John 15:6, Rev 14:10-12, Rev 20:15).

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 02:50 PM
Whoa. I didn't realize you were a universalist. You believe that all people will eventually be saved? Sorry, but that is clearly a false doctrine. Unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire on judgment day and will never have another chance at salvation. That is why it is so urgent to reach people with the gospel now before it is too late.

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jude 1
22And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


Hey Eric,

I'm not a universalist. I just think that God is Loving as well as Just and believe he will indeed demonstrate mercy in some form to all men, as he does not enjoy/delight in the suffering of any. Now that then begs the answer to the question, who does God consider unbelievers? The answer to me would be "sinners." Who are sinners, all men. Who is righteous then. Only God. How are men saved then, by God extending his salvation to men through Christ Jesus. We are saved by this act of mercy, not by an act that we have willed ourselves to. This is the great equalizer of all things. No man saves himself, only God saves men through his Love, compassion, and Justice. This helps men not to become prideful and boast of how much they know regarding the scriptures, or how many right choices they've made to allow themselves to be saved.

So despite the level of faith one thinks they have, we must remember that God will have mercy on who he demonstrates mercy on, and he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion on.

In Christ,

Stephen

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 02:54 PM
This is an excellent point and insight into this discussion legoman. I have to say that I agree with you for the most part. The example you've given above really explains why God was grieving during the time of Noah, as in the scripture it does go on to describe the statement "God saw the inherent wickedness of man" and then scripture goes on to say that he was grieving over this wickedness.

One thing I might add though is that there are times when it is truly difficult for us to understand exactly what God is feeling regarding a certain situation, and why he grieves over things he knows are already going happen, as sometimes scripture doesn't give us an exact explanation of this. Think of the example of Job, where God had declared him a "righteous man." We can see throughout most of God's testimony, that he was predominantly angry with Job until the end of the story, until he decided to demonstrate mercy on him. Now this doesn't mean that God didn't grieve Job's struggle at some point, but it does mean that sometimes there is more than meets the eye to what God is feeling during any given situation.

I think one poster put it best in another thread regarding a similar discussion(I'm paraphrasing)

"God is an infinite being, who possesses infinite amounts of emotion that he simultaneously is utilizing, so sometimes his actions/emotions can't be fully comprehended by us during various times within our lives."

Friend of I am, this is a good point from both you and legoman. Consider for example the story of Lazarus dying. Christ could have gone immediately to Lazarus and healed him, but instead He waited until after Lazarus died. Of course we all know the reason He waited was to show His power and glory by raising Lazarus from the dead. But Christ knew He would raise Lazarus and yet that did not keep Christ from being extremely saddened and grieving over his death.

In the case of Lazarus it seems odd that the Lord would grieve, knowing that Lazarus was beloved of the Lord, and though dying, he has eternal life. Is it any different with any who are created in the image of God? Look how Christ mourned over Jerusalem when telling them how He longed to take their children under the shelter of His wings, but they were not willing. The Lord is not happy, and in fact saddened that those created in the image of God will be condemned, but this fact does not make it any less a fact, they will be condemned because they remain in unbelief.

Are they condemned because they freely choose to reject Christ? Yes, they are! And this is the truth for every son of Adam. Every one of us, would be condemned, and this would sadden our Lord greatly...IF He does not intervene in the lives of some men, re-creating them in His image, to give them eternal life.

Are those who are given eternal life saved because they freely choose to come to Christ? Yes, they are! BUT...and this is the difference, they are not different than any other man born in Adam. The only reason they can freely choose to turn to Christ for life is because He intervenes, changing their will, that freely chooses to reject Him, making them willing to come to Him for life.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And this would be the fate of every man born of Adam unless God Himself saves a people from damnation.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 02:56 PM
Friend of I am, this is a good point from both you and legoman. Consider for example the story of Lazarus dying. Christ could have gone immediately to Lazarus and healed him, but instead He waited until after Lazarus died. Of course we all know the reason He waited was to show His power and glory by raising Lazarus from the dead. But Christ knew He would raise Lazarus and yet that did not keep Christ from being extremely saddened and grieving over his death.

In the case of Lazarus it seems odd that the Lord would grieve, knowing that Lazarus was beloved of the Lord, and though dying, he has eternal life. Is it any different with any who are created in the image of God? Look how Christ mourned over Jerusalem when telling them how He longed to take their children under the shelter of His wings, but they were not willing. The Lord is not happy, and in fact saddened that those created in the image of God will be condemned, but this fact does not make it any less a fact, they will be condemned because they remain in unbelief.

Are they condemned because they freely choose to reject Christ? Yes, they are! And this is the truth for every son of Adam. Every one of us, would be condemned, and this would sadden our Lord greatly...IF He does not intervene in the lives of some men, re-creating them in His image, to give them eternal life.

Are those who are given eternal life saved because they freely choose to come to Christ? Yes, they are! BUT...and this is the difference, they are not different than any other man born in Adam. The only reason they can freely choose to turn to Christ for life is because He intervenes, changing their will, that freely chooses to reject Him, making them willing to come to Him for life.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And this would be the fate of every man born of Adam unless God, Himself saves a people from damnation.

Many Blessings,
RW

Well put Roger. I think this sums up a lot of has been said throughout the entire thread.

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 03:00 PM
Yes I read your whole response, but it was not clear. It sounded like you were saying people could still resist God's plan. But I see that is not what you meant. So in your opinion, God has a plan - no one shall resist it - but part of that plan is to give free will to people and let them make the decision alone and have all the responsibility. So in that sense God's desire(s) may or may not be met, but his plan will never be resisted. Am I correct in your understanding?That's correct.


An interesting point here is 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Notice that the word "willing" here comes from "boulomai" which is the root of "boulema". This is the same will (boulema) as in Romans 9:19. This is different from 1 Tim 2:4 which uses "thelo". Although even in that verse some translate it as "will", and some translate it as "desire".

Now given that none can resist his will (boulema), what should we make of 2 Peter 3:9?The word "boulomai" does not have the same meaning as the word "boulema". If you look at how the word "boulomai" is used elsewhere, you would see that it is more like the word "thelo" than the word "boulema" because it has to do with desire instead of a case of "this is what will happen and nothing can stop it". We know that not everyone repents, so it can't mean the same as "boulema" in 2 Peter 3:9. If it did, then everyone would repent. But not everyone does, obviously.


God grieves because parts of his plan require discipline and evil, yet they are necessary to achieve his ultimate purpose. God is creating man in his image - he is not done yet.

God is binding men over to disobedience so he can have mercy on them later.
YLT:Romans 11:32 for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
KJV:Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
NIV:Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The punishment will be Just and is necessary to achieve God's plan.

Let me ask this: do you think God is Just and will show mercy on all?

LegomanThis is unbelievable to me. Do you, too, believe in universal salvation (i.e. everyone will eventually be saved)? Do you think people have a chance to be saved after they die? Scripture doesn't teach that. Just because God may have mercy upon all doesn't mean He does. That verse just means that men were given over to disobedience so that God could have mercy upon them. His having mercy on people and saving them is conditional upon them repenting and believing in Christ.

Those who refuse to ever repent and believe in Christ are condemned for eternity. He is longsuffering with people and gives them plenty of chances to repent and believe. In that sense, He is merciful to all people by giving them a chance for salvation. But He holds people responsible to make a decision to repent and believe in Christ or not. If they refuse then they will be held accountable on judgment day and will be cast into the everlasting lake of fire. They will not be cast into the lake of fire because they never had any ability to choose to repent and believe. Man is accountable and responsibile for his own decisions. They will be cast into the lake of fire for willingly choosing to reject Christ.

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 03:04 PM
That verse just means that men were given over to disobedience so that God could have mercy upon them. His having mercy on people and saving them is conditional upon them repenting and believing in Christ.

Eric, this is not true. Salvation is not conditioned upon our repenting and believing in Christ...salvation is conditioned upon God's grace! Without which no man will be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 03:35 PM
Friend of I am, this is a good point from both you and legoman. Consider for example the story of Lazarus dying. Christ could have gone immediately to Lazarus and healed him, but instead He waited until after Lazarus died. Of course we all know the reason He waited was to show His power and glory by raising Lazarus from the dead. But Christ knew He would raise Lazarus and yet that did not keep Christ from being extremely saddened and grieving over his death.

In the case of Lazarus it seems odd that the Lord would grieve, knowing that Lazarus was beloved of the Lord, and though dying, he has eternal life. Is it any different with any who are created in the image of God? Look how Christ mourned over Jerusalem when telling them how He longed to take their children under the shelter of His wings, but they were not willing. The Lord is not happy, and in fact saddened that those created in the image of God will be condemned, but this fact does not make it any less a fact, they will be condemned because they remain in unbelief.

Are they condemned because they freely choose to reject Christ? Yes, they are! And this is the truth for every son of Adam. Every one of us, would be condemned, and this would sadden our Lord greatly...IF He does not intervene in the lives of some men, re-creating them in His image, to give them eternal life.

Are those who are given eternal life saved because they freely choose to come to Christ? Yes, they are! BUT...and this is the difference, they are not different than any other man born in Adam. The only reason they can freely choose to turn to Christ for life is because He intervenes, changing their will, that freely chooses to reject Him, making them willing to come to Him for life.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And this would be the fate of every man born of Adam unless God Himself saves a people from damnation.

Many Blessings,
RW

Would you agree that the choice that is made to turn to Christ is based on the gospel that is preached to all men?

Rom 1:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Jn 5:24 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Jn 14:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 03:37 PM
Hey Eric,

I'm not a universalist. I just think that God is Loving as well as Just and believe he will indeed demonstrate mercy in some form to all men, as he does not enjoy/delight in the suffering of any. Now that then begs the answer to the question, who does God consider unbelievers? The answer to me would be "sinners." Who are sinners, all men. Who is righteous then. Only God. How are men saved then, by God extending his salvation to men through Christ Jesus. We are saved by this act of mercy, not by an act that we have willed ourselves to. This is the great equalizer of all things. No man saves himself, only God saves men through his Love, compassion, and Justice. This helps men not to become prideful and boast of how much they know regarding the scriptures, or how many right choices they've made to allow themselves to be saved.

So despite the level of faith one thinks they have, we must remember that God will have mercy on who he demonstrates mercy on, and he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion on.

In Christ,

StephenOkay, so you believe that God decided to only give salvation to some while withholding it from the rest? And, apparently, your answer for that is just that God can do as He pleases so we have no reason to question it. Is that right?

If so, I disagree. Yes, we have no right to question God when He does things for His purposes. He knows what He's doing and it is always for good reason. But was it His purpose to only save some? No. It is His desire for all to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Your doctrine seems to disregard that fact.

Regarding God having mercy and compassion on who He will have mercy and compassion, doesn't scripture teach us who He decides to have mercy and compassion on? He repeatedly has mercy on those who humble themselves and repent and hardens those who have already hardened their own hearts.

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 03:40 PM
Eric, this is not true. Salvation is not conditioned upon our repenting and believing in Christ...salvation is conditioned upon God's grace! Without which no man will be saved.

Many Blessings,
RWIt is conditioned upon both God's grace and our responsibility to repent and believe.

Here is Christ's message for all unregenerate sinners:

Mark 1
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

He didn't say "if you are ever regenerated/born again then you will repent and believe the gospel". No, this was His message for spiritually dead unregenerate sinners, telling them what He expected them to do if they were going to be saved and enter the kingdom of God.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 03:49 PM
Friend of I am, this is a good point from both you and legoman. Consider for example the story of Lazarus dying. Christ could have gone immediately to Lazarus and healed him, but instead He waited until after Lazarus died. Of course we all know the reason He waited was to show His power and glory by raising Lazarus from the dead. But Christ knew He would raise Lazarus and yet that did not keep Christ from being extremely saddened and grieving over his death.

In the case of Lazarus it seems odd that the Lord would grieve, knowing that Lazarus was beloved of the Lord, and though dying, he has eternal life. Is it any different with any who are created in the image of God? Look how Christ mourned over Jerusalem when telling them how He longed to take their children under the shelter of His wings, but they were not willing. The Lord is not happy, and in fact saddened that those created in the image of God will be condemned, but this fact does not make it any less a fact, they will be condemned because they remain in unbelief.

Are they condemned because they freely choose to reject Christ? Yes, they are! And this is the truth for every son of Adam. Every one of us, would be condemned, and this would sadden our Lord greatly...IF He does not intervene in the lives of some men, re-creating them in His image, to give them eternal life.

Are those who are given eternal life saved because they freely choose to come to Christ? Yes, they are! BUT...and this is the difference, they are not different than any other man born in Adam. The only reason they can freely choose to turn to Christ for life is because He intervenes, changing their will, that freely chooses to reject Him, making them willing to come to Him for life.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And this would be the fate of every man born of Adam unless God Himself saves a people from damnation.

Many Blessings,
RWRoger, you have to be kidding me here. It would not truly be a free choice if the ones who freely choose to reject Him couldn't also have freely chosen to accept Him. But that's what you believe. You believe all they could do was "choose" to reject Him. If they couldn't also have chosen to accept Him then that is no choice at all.

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 03:54 PM
Eric, this is not true. Salvation is not conditioned upon our repenting and believing in Christ...salvation is conditioned upon God's grace! Without which no man will be saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Can we be saved if our sins are not forgiven by repenting?

Acts 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

2 Cor 7:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you believe that without repentance we can be saved?

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 04:10 PM
Would you agree that the choice that is made to turn to Christ is based on the gospel that is preached to all men?


Greetings Firstfruits,

Yes I would agree. Why? Because Scripture tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word, and without faith it is impossible to please God. So all men hear the the message of the gospel, but not all men receive faith (the gift of God's grace) to believe...why? Is there something wrong with the Word or something wrong with the hearing?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 04:22 PM
It is conditioned upon both God's grace and our responsibility to repent and believe.

Here is Christ's message for all unregenerate sinners:

Mark 1
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

He didn't say "if you are ever regenerated/born again then you will repent and believe the gospel". No, this was His message for spiritually dead unregenerate sinners, telling them what He expected them to do if they were going to be saved and enter the kingdom of God.

Eric,

Why do you suppose Scripture uses the word "believe" and "faith" almost synonymously? Would you say they mean the same thing? If they do mean the same thing why are they two different words?

Repenting is an act of man, for God does not repent for us. Therefore repenting cannot be a requirement for salvation, for then salvation would not be of grace but grace plus our work. If simply believing is a requirement for salvation, then we would have to say that even the devils will be saved, because they certainly believe the facts about Christ.

Therefore repenting and believing, are not conditions for salvation, but rather evidence of salvation. One might believe, and one might even be sorry for their sins, but the fact remains that without grace through faith, no man will be saved. And whether we like it or not, Scripture is abundantly clear not all men receive God's grace or His gift of faith to believe.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 04:23 PM
Greetings Firstfruits,

Yes I would agree. Why? Because Scripture tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word, and without faith it is impossible to please God. So all men hear the the message of the gospel, but not all men receive faith (the gift of God's grace) to believe...why? Is there something wrong with the Word or something wrong with the hearing?

Many Blessings,
RW

There is nothing wrong with the word or the hearing, but not all have faith.

Heb 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 04:26 PM
Roger, you have to be kidding me here. It would not truly be a free choice if the ones who freely choose to reject Him couldn't also have freely chosen to accept Him. But that's what you believe. You believe all they could do was "choose" to reject Him. If they couldn't also have chosen to accept Him then that is no choice at all.

Eric,

It is as free as it can be while in spiritual bondage to Satan, sin and death. The only free choice fallen man can make is according to his/her nature/natural desire. Men who remain dead in trespasses and sins simply do not naturally desire to come to Christ for life. If they could come to God through their own free will then why did Christ have to die that they might live? Simple answer...because no man remaining dead in trespasses and sins can freely choose to come to Christ for life. It takes a supernatural God, extending to them His supernatural grace through His supernatural Word and Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 04:28 PM
Can we be saved if our sins are not forgiven by repenting?

Acts 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

2 Cor 7:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Pet 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=61&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Do you believe that without repentance we can be saved?

Firstfruits

Repentance is not a requirement for salvation, it is evidence that we have been saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 04:39 PM
Eric,

It is as free as it can be while in spiritual bondage to Satan, sin and death. The only free choice fallen man can make is according to his/her nature/natural desire. Men who remain dead in trespasses and sins simply do not naturally desire to come to Christ for life. If they could come to God through their own free will then why did Christ have to die that they might live? Simple answer...because no man remaining dead in trespasses and sins can freely choose to come to Christ for life. It takes a supernatural God, extending to them His supernatural grace through His supernatural Word and Spirit.

Many Blessings,
RW

Do we choose wether or not we believe what we hear?

Rom 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Heb 11:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=11&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Do all believe?

Do all have faith?

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 04:53 PM
Eric,

Why do you suppose Scripture uses the word "believe" and "faith" almost synonymously? Would you say they mean the same thing? If they do mean the same thing why are they two different words? They can mean the same thing. It depends on how they are used.


Repenting is an act of man, for God does not repent for us. Therefore repenting cannot be a requirement for salvation, for then salvation would not be of grace but grace plus our work.Wrong. Scripture doesn't teach that repentance is a work of the law or a work of righteousness. Scripture only says that man is not saved by works of the law or works of righteousness. Repentance and faith are neither of those.


If simply believing is a requirement for salvation, then we would have to say that even the devils will be saved, because they certainly believe the facts about Christ. Do you think that Jesus was telling people to only believe in their heads when He said "repent and believe the gospel"? No, He was telling them to believe with all their hearts. We know from other scripture what it means to believe in Christ and the gospel. It involves denying oneself and acknowledging that one is a sinner and needs mercy, forgiveness and salvation that only Christ could provide through His shed blood on the cross and His resurrection.


Therefore repenting and believing, are not conditions for salvation, but rather evidence of salvation.This is not true. Read the following passage:

2 Cor 7
9Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Clearly, repentance comes first before salvation. Repentance leads to salvation. Let scripture speak for itself.


One might believe, and one might even be sorry for their sins, but the fact remains that without grace through faith, no man will be saved. Are you suggesting that one could be truly sorry for their sins but God will tell them something like this: "Too bad. That's nice that you're sorry, but I didn't choose you before the foundation of the world so it doesn't matter what you do now."?


And whether we like it or not, Scripture is abundantly clear not all men receive God's grace or His gift of faith to believe. Scripture doesn't teach that saving faith is a gift that God gives some while withholding it from the rest. What scripture is abundantly clear about is that all people are responsible to repent and believe (Acts 17:30). God wouldn't hold all people accountable to repent and believe if He didn't give all people the ability to repent and believe. But they must willfully choose to do so.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 04:55 PM
Repentance is not a requirement for salvation, it is evidence that we have been saved.

Many Blessings,
RWWhy are you blatantly denying what is taught in this passage (and others):

2 Cor 7
9Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Friend of I AM
Nov 5th 2008, 04:59 PM
Okay, so you believe that God decided to only give salvation to some while withholding it from the rest? And, apparently, your answer for that is just that God can do as He pleases so we have no reason to question it. Is that right?


Never stated any of the above. I did state that I believe that salvation is brought to men based on God willing them to himself.



If so, I disagree. Yes, we have no right to question God when He does things for His purposes. He knows what He's doing and it is always for good reason. But was it His purpose to only save some? No. It is His desire for all to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Your doctrine seems to disregard that fact.


I don't agree with the questioning part, I do agree with the his desire is for all to repent. I would add that this desire is probably synonomous with his desire for all to receive mercy in some shape or form. Back to the questioning part. I think God receives questions asked to him with the right spirit graciously. Scriptures support this by stating that we are to persistently ask him of things and test the spirits around us.

I don't think he likes it when people question him for reasons that are just to prove themselves knowledgeable, but from what I can tell from reading the scriptures he generally answers even those questions in ways which are understandable to us.



Regarding God having mercy and compassion on who He will have mercy and compassion, doesn't scripture teach us who He decides to have mercy and compassion on? He repeatedly has mercy on those who humble themselves and repent and hardens those who have already hardened their own hearts.

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Definitely agree here with you. I think we're moving on the right track with this one. So can we agree that human choice, God's faith, God's mercy, and God's justice are manifestations of God's ultimate Will/plan which brings men to salvation?

God bless in Christian Love,

Stephen

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 05:00 PM
There is nothing wrong with the word or the hearing, but not all have faith.

Heb 4:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=58&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Exactly firstfruits! Now from where does faith come? By grace we are saved...how? Through faith that is not of ourselves, but the gift of God. In Eph 2:8 "it is" is in italics, and does not belong. When we leave it is out, we can better see the gift of God's grace unto salvation is faith. So that we will know the gift of faith is not our own, Paul says, "not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Peter preaches the gospel to the Gentiles, that they too might believe, (trust in, have faith). After hearing, God knowing the hearts, gives them the Holy Spirit, Who purifies their hearts by faith, or moral conviction, persuasion, assurance, reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words believing (faith) must go beyond a mental assent of Who Christ is, to a firm conviction (saving faith) of reliance upon Christ for salvation. One kind of faith is from observable evidence, and comes from within, but the other kind of faith is supernatural, the gift of God's grace. Without saving faith that comes by grace, no man can be saved.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Ac 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Ac 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Many Blessings,
RW