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View Full Version : Post Trib: God's Strategic Plan: Is God Crazy?



undercoverdave
Oct 19th 2008, 01:17 AM
Ok, this question is a bit of a reflection of my current inner-turmoil as I battle against my flesh, but I think it also reflects most of us, if we're honest.

I believe the post-trib view, in which the church goes through the judgments, and they are being released by the Lamb.

But something is really bothering me right now, and it has to do with Gods leadership. Why? Why does he do things the way he does? We know it turns out good, but if you didn't know that, you'd swear God is crazy.

If you were about to get married, and your future wife wasn't quite ready for the big day, would you send someone to persecute her, and then show up to save her at the last moment? And then would you tell her in advance that you were going to do that? Is this not an accurate picture of the releasing of the AntiChrist?

Gods pattern of using temporary suffering to produce something within us is genius, although at times (i.e. when I'm the one suffering), I feel like he's an evil genius. Afterwards, of course, I can agree with His leadership, but it's so difficult in the midst of it to love his ways.

If you have insight on why God works this way, feel free to chime in... because at this moment, it's driving me crazy.

jponb
Oct 19th 2008, 01:58 AM
Some people think God was crazy when He sent His only begotten Son to be mocked, beaten, punched, spat on, abandoned, made to wear a crown of thorns, suffered to carry a cross that belonged to us, be nailed to it naked, redicule some more, and pierced in the side. Pretrib, Postrib, God is not crazy... He simply loves us. What we deserved we don't have to pay. I will take light afflictions than burning for eternity.

quiet dove
Oct 19th 2008, 02:19 AM
Ok, this question is a bit of a reflection of my current inner-turmoil as I battle against my flesh, but I think it also reflects most of us, if we're honest.

I believe the post-trib view, in which the church goes through the judgments, and they are being released by the Lamb.

But something is really bothering me right now, and it has to do with Gods leadership. Why? Why does he do things the way he does? We know it turns out good, but if you didn't know that, you'd swear God is crazy.

If you were about to get married, and your future wife wasn't quite ready for the big day, would you send someone to persecute her, and then show up to save her at the last moment? And then would you tell her in advance that you were going to do that? Is this not an accurate picture of the releasing of the AntiChrist?

Gods pattern of using temporary suffering to produce something within us is genius, although at times (i.e. when I'm the one suffering), I feel like he's an evil genius. Afterwards, of course, I can agree with His leadership, but it's so difficult in the midst of it to love his ways.

If you have insight on why God works this way, feel free to chime in... because at this moment, it's driving me crazy.

You are asking post tribbers I guess, but being pre trib, I simply do not have that dilema.

If we equate persecution to God's wrath, does that mean God is trying to see if He can get us to deny Christ, surely that would be a ridiculus suggestion.

If we say that persecution is required to refine the believer, would that not leave a good many believers not refined. Doesn't the Bible tell us

Eph 5:26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of by the, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Yes it is true that we grow through trials and afflictions, but to equate that to God's wrath takes us back to my first question doesn't it, and my second also. Does that mean because my grandpa died without anyone persecuting him for his faith mean he never stood a chance at being refined?

I am not in any dilema, I have no reason to fear God's judgment and wrath, in this life or the next. Either Christ paid my dept or He didn't. But He didn't some what pay for it, thats not an option.

And since we know He paid our dept in full, does that mean I wont suffer on account of His name, nope, but it does mean I have no reason to fear the wrath of Almighty God or the Lamb.

Any good parent can tell you that discipline is not judgment/wrath. We use the term interchangeably sometimes but in reality, discipline teaches and correctsl. Judgment/wrath, punish. Though the words are all used interchangeably their is a definite difference in the purpose.

And we need to consider what "suffering" is. When I look back on my life, most of the trials and tribulations in it, were caused by me. Had I been as Paul said, content in all circumstances, the majority of my circumstances would not have been as much a trial to me.

Equating persecution for our faith, and Gods wrath is simply not concievable to me. And I have said this before also about those, like myself living in the West where we are free to worship our Lord. Or I ask rather, is persecution for ones faith the only way in which one can deny their Lord? No, of course not. That pretty car, that fancy house, that new what ever pretty thing we want, all that glitter and lights. More than one way to lose ones soul, like by gaining the world?

Anyone seeking after Christ, and to walking in His step, to walk in the Spirit, will be refined, one way or another. And I can honestly say I do not look forward to losing my freedom of religion, and possibly suffering, or being jailed. But I do not fear God's wrath because Jesus paid that dept in full, period.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 19th 2008, 02:29 AM
Ok, this question is a bit of a reflection of my current inner-turmoil as I battle against my flesh, but I think it also reflects most of us, if we're honest.

I believe the post-trib view, in which the church goes through the judgments, and they are being released by the Lamb.

But something is really bothering me right now, and it has to do with Gods leadership. Why? Why does he do things the way he does? We know it turns out good, but if you didn't know that, you'd swear God is crazy.

If you were about to get married, and your future wife wasn't quite ready for the big day, would you send someone to persecute her, and then show up to save her at the last moment? And then would you tell her in advance that you were going to do that? Is this not an accurate picture of the releasing of the AntiChrist?

Gods pattern of using temporary suffering to produce something within us is genius, although at times (i.e. when I'm the one suffering), I feel like he's an evil genius. Afterwards, of course, I can agree with His leadership, but it's so difficult in the midst of it to love his ways.

If you have insight on why God works this way, feel free to chime in... because at this moment, it's driving me crazy.The problem is that you're approaching this with a faulty understanding of Post-Trib. (I'm a post-tribber, just so you know.)

Contrary to the claim of most pre-tribbers, the actual wrath of God does not begin until after the 2nd Coming/Rapture. It is true that Jesus is allowing events to be set into motion with the opening of the seals, but they are not His wrath, anymore than it was God's will for Hitler to instigate the Holocaust.

The Day of the Lord comes after the Tribulation, and constitutes the pouring out of the seven bowls. We, the Church will be above the earth in a position of safety during that time. After the wrath is completed, then we will descend back to the earth in our new bodies with Jesus, for the start of the Millennium.

So to answer your question, the Church will not endure one second of God's wrath with a post-trib Rapture.

undercoverdave
Oct 19th 2008, 03:12 AM
Some people think God was crazy when He sent His only begotten Son to be mocked, beaten, punched, spat on, abandoned, made to wear a crown of thorns, suffered to carry a cross that belonged to us, be nailed to it naked, redicule some more, and pierced in the side. Pretrib, Postrib, God is not crazy... He simply loves us. What we deserved we don't have to pay. I will take light afflictions than burning for eternity.

This is exactly what someone else said to me, and is very accurate of the inner-turmoil I have had --

"Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."

It's just crazy, how after all that I've been through with the Lord, there's still offense in my heart toward his ways...

It's not that I disagree with His wisdom, it's just that it's so UNLIKE ME. I agree with His wisdom, I just am realizing how different from me He is, and how painful (to the flesh) it is to love His ways.

I'm not arguing anything here really, it's just so... hard to come to grips with when you really think about it, and experience it.

That He would crush His Son, that He would judge the earth, that in the end "[He] will make people more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir."

Another example is when He lead Israel into the wilderness. You have to really trust Him to love Him in the midst of that.

In the midst of it, our eyes will really have to be on Him, and our hearts really loving Him to endure. Rev 6:17 "Who can stand?"

Kahtar
Oct 19th 2008, 03:52 AM
In the midst of it, our eyes will really have to be on Him, and our hearts really loving Him to endure. Rev 6:17 "Who can stand?"

I'm not so sure it's going to be nearly as difficult as we tend to believe. How difficult is it for a soldier to put his trust in Christ in the midst of a firefight?
When there is nowhere else to turn, turning to Him will be relatively easy, I think. But, it'll be a lot easier if we learn and practice now, while there is room for stumbling.
As to His ways, well, I sometimes think He goes the extra mile to do things differently than we humans think they should be done, just to show us He is God, and that His ways are sooooooo far above our ways.
To recieve, you must give, to live, you must die, to know joy, you must experience grief, to know the Light, you must first walk in darkness, to know His grace, you must first know your helplessness. Seems like every time we turn around, His way is 180 degrees away from our way. But, somehow, His way is always the right way.

danield
Oct 19th 2008, 04:46 AM
Another example is when He lead Israel into the wilderness. You have to really trust Him to love Him in the midst of that.
There was a lot learned in that trip though the desert. I am sure God was fully aware of the true nature of their hearts before the trip began, but it did teach others who clearly loved the lord after the journey was complete.



2 Timothy 3:1-9 NLT 2 Timothy 3:1 ∂ You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. 2 For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. 3 They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. 4 They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. 5 They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that! 6 They are the kind who work their way into people's homes and win the confidence of vulnerable women who are burdened with the guilt of sin and controlled by various desires. 7 (Such women are forever following new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth.) 8 These teachers oppose the truth just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses. They have depraved minds and a counterfeit faith. 9 But they won't get away with this for long. Someday everyone will recognize what fools they are, just as with Jannes and Jambres.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 19th 2008, 04:48 AM
I'm not so sure it's going to be nearly as difficult as we tend to believe. How difficult is it for a soldier to put his trust in Christ in the midst of a firefight?
When there is nowhere else to turn, turning to Him will be relatively easy, I think. But, it'll be a lot easier if we learn and practice now, while there is room for stumbling.
As to His ways, well, I sometimes think He goes the extra mile to do things differently than we humans think they should be done, just to show us He is God, and that His ways are sooooooo far above our ways.
To recieve, you must give, to live, you must die, to know joy, you must experience grief, to know the Light, you must first walk in darkness, to know His grace, you must first know your helplessness. Seems like every time we turn around, His way is 180 degrees away from our way. But, somehow, His way is always the right way.Wonderfully spoken.

Veretax
Oct 19th 2008, 11:06 AM
I think the real important point (and this is whether you are a Pre or Post Tribber), is knowing the difference between persecution and suffering from man, and judgement and wrath from God. We know that early Christians were heavily persecuted in the Roman World. Even today in some countries Like Iraq, China, etc, Christians are enduring hardship just as bad if not worse than those days.

The difference would seem to be whether the Day of the Lord is the entire 70th Week of Daniel as PRe-Tribber's seem to believe. If it isn't till the near end or after the Tribulation as Post Tribbers seem to believe. This is a matter of interpretation in my opinion.

The trick here is to watch and test what is going on to see whether the evens happening are the result of sinful man or the result of God's judging man.

Gods Child
Oct 19th 2008, 01:28 PM
What has been the reason for the Church to be on the earth for the last 2000+ years?
Why have Christians been persecuted for the last 2000+ years?

The answer is quite simple Ė To preach the gospel to the world and then shall the end come.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Like the Christians before us, we too will see persecution. We are placed on this earth to be a witness unto Christ and to lead souls to the saving grace of salvation. That has been our purpose all along.

As long as there is time to repent, there still will be the need for the Church to be here on the earth even up to the time of the end.
As Jesus said Ė this gospel will be preached and THEN SHALL THE END COME. Which shows us, that Christians will be here on the earth until the end. Why? Because, we will still be needed to preach the gospel.

We are not greater than our Lord, when it comes to persecution. God allowed Jesus to be persecuted and we are no better than our Lord to escape persecution. God loves his children, but persecution comes from the ungodly. Persecution does not come from God. As Jesus said in John 15 "If they have persecuted me" - who are the "they" that persecuted Jesus? Jesus went on to say that "they" will persecute you also. The They in the scripture refers to the ungodly. So it is the ungodly that persecuted God's people.

Jn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

During the time of the tribulation, the trib-Saints will be persecuted by the ungodly (aka-Satan/Dragon/Antichrist/Satanís workers).
As since the beginning of time, persecution of the Saints has always came from the ungodly, not from God. God does not persecute his Church (aka Saints).

The tribulation is caused by Satanís wrath, not Godís wrath.

There are two wraths.
Satanís wrath against Godís people
Godís wrath against Satanís people.

The book of Revelation tells us when Satan's wrath comes and when God's wrath comes. It also tells us that Satan's wrath is against God's people and then shows us that God's wrath is against Satan and his people.
We can then see that there are two different wraths spoken of during the time of the end.

Satan (devil/dragon) wrath against Godís people-
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
17 And the [u]dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Godís wrath against Satanís people
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Saints are shown as being on the earth all the way until God's wrath (vials=Rev 16) are poured out. Which shows us that the Church (Saints) will be on the earth up until that time.

We are shown that Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers his from the earth at the 7th trumpet and then the vials (wrath of God) is then poured out. During the vials the Saints are shown as being with God. Which shows us that during the vials (wrath of God) the church had been taken just prior (at the 7th trumpet).

When were the Saints taken? At the 7 trumpet, which is shown in Rev 14.
After the 7th trumpet (Rev 14), then comes the vials (wrath of God=Rev 15 & 16).

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Rev 14:15- Rev 15:2)



[u]"THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOME SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD AND THEN SHALL THE END COME"





*

Ethnikos
Oct 19th 2008, 06:34 PM
Gods pattern of using temporary suffering to produce something within us is genius, although at times (i.e. when I'm the one suffering), I feel like he's an evil genius. Afterwards, of course, I can agree with His leadership, but it's so difficult in the midst of it to love his ways.You do not know the bride. God does. He will make it known, after it is all over.
To use your words, "...to produce something within us...", you should see this in a broader sense, as in the greater good of the whole. Meaning there will be additional souls won for Christ during this time. Once everyone is in, who will come in, the whole thing will stop. Collateral damage will happen but God will recompense you if you are a victim.

petepet
Oct 19th 2008, 06:53 PM
God only brings tribulation on His people, and indeed on the world, as a result of the working out of history, and of Satan's activity. It is not His direct action, even though clearly He is 'in control'.

The prophecies of troubles in the end days (which began in the Apostles' times) were simply describing what would inevitably be. We must not see them as somehow the direct hand of God.

Through the centuries churches throughout the world have experinced tribulations equally as severe as any that will come in the final days. The end days will simply be the culmination of man' inhumanity to man, encouraged by Satan.

Thank God that He revealed that the seven-sealed 'book' was being opened by Jesus Christ as the Lord of history (Revelation 6). It is a reminder that through the centuries He has been in control.

As I have pointed out in another thread there is no mention of an end day Great Tribulation in Scripture.

The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 could be escaped by fleeing into the mountains, and was fulfilled in the invasion of Jerusalem in 70 AD combined with the continual tribulation on the Jews through the ages in accordance with Deuteronomy 28, the like of which has never been known before or since. This is quite clear if we compare the parallel section in Luke's Gospel.

The great tribulation in Revelation 2 was tribulation on local churches of John's day. That in Revelation 7 refers back to that great tribulation (only Revelation 7 has the article on the phrase) and indicates that to a point all God's people through the ages will suffer such great tribulation at times.

There will of course be troubles in the end days, as there have always been. Whether it will affect more than the 'world' as known to John is open to question. The US may know little about it. That is in God's hands. But the only certainty we have is that our Lord Jesus Christ will rapture those who are alive at the time of His coming, and will take them, along with resurrected saints, into the coming Kingdom of God in Heaven.

Dani H
Oct 19th 2008, 06:59 PM
To answer the OP's sentiment of "is God crazy?"

A number of years ago I was beating my head against a brick wall because I couldn't "get" what God was doing in my life. I went to Him and said "You know, Lord, you're really not making any sense here."

His reply: "I make perfect sense; it is you who lacks understanding."

... and therefore ... with all your getting, get understanding. :)

undercoverdave
Oct 20th 2008, 02:18 AM
To answer the OP's sentiment of "is God crazy?"

A number of years ago I was beating my head against a brick wall because I couldn't "get" what God was doing in my life. I went to Him and said "You know, Lord, you're really not making any sense here."

His reply: "I make perfect sense; it is you who lacks understanding."

... and therefore ... with all your getting, get understanding. :)

Yeah, this is exactly where I'm at.

Dani H
Oct 20th 2008, 02:39 AM
Yeah, this is exactly where I'm at.

My prayer, since that day has been "Lord, help me understand."

And He does. :)