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DIZZY
Oct 19th 2008, 08:28 AM
When Christ returns do the believers go into the kingdom in their mortal bodies?

DeafPosttrib
Oct 19th 2008, 11:41 AM
No.

1 Cor. 15:50 tells us, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.

Because, 1 Cor. 15:51-54 telling us, when at the last trump shall be sounded, all believers' body will changed into immortality, mortal will be put away, and all believers shall have perfect glory body like Christ and angels.

Whilst, the rest of all unbelievers shall be destroyed at Christ's coming, by casy them away into everlasting fire.

There will be no mortal person on new earth with Christ beyond Second Coming. The reason is, God is so glory and holy. No sin can touch God and on new earth also, in New Jerusalem. Because everything all will be new and holy.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

jeffweeder
Oct 19th 2008, 10:34 PM
Hello Dizzy

I was going to say the same thing.
Jesus promised to come and get us and take us to the Fathers House, the place he has prepared for us.:spin:
We must be dressed appropriately ;)

JesusReignsForever
Oct 19th 2008, 10:38 PM
Hello Dizzy

I was going to say the same thing.
Jesus promised to come and get us and take us to the Fathers House, the place he has prepared for us.:spin:
We must be dressed appropriately ;)

EXACTLY!! AMEN TO THAT! We are going to be New Creatures in Christ and I cant wait!:pp Lord just help me to make it in!

DigReal
Oct 20th 2008, 12:05 AM
I take it you guys don't believe in the Millennium rule of Christ, on earth? If so, can you explain why?

I'm still kinda new to end time study. I've gone from post-trib to mid trib to pre wrath and am currently pre-trib. I've never been 100% on any of those views, and doubt I ever will be. Flip flopping doesn't really bother me, but I'm still searching for a better understanding on each view.

Thanks much!

jeffweeder
Oct 20th 2008, 01:01 AM
I take it you guys don't believe in the Millennium rule of Christ, on earth? If so, can you explain why?


Ill post a new thread soon showing peter was an Amill.

Gods Child
Oct 20th 2008, 01:26 AM
When Christ returns do the believers go into the kingdom in their mortal bodies?

The bible describes a time when Jesus will come back and gather his from the earth. Most Christians call this the rapture, but the bible calls this the resurrection of the Christians.

After the resurrection Christians will then be in a immortal body (we will be like the angels) and we will reign with Christ during the Millennium (1000 year reign of Christ). If you read further in Rev 20 it tell us that this reign will be on earth for 1000 years.

Read scriptures of the resurrection;

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:28-30)

And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. (Luke 14:14)

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)


Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (John 11:24)

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Rom 6:5)


So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Corinthians 15:42-44 & 49-54)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6)


Our resurrection will just like Jesus resurrection. He went to be with the father in an immortal body, but his dead body was not in the grave.

bennie
Oct 20th 2008, 03:01 AM
I take it you guys don't believe in the Millennium rule of Christ, on earth? If so, can you explain why?

I'm still kinda new to end time study. I've gone from post-trib to mid trib to pre wrath and am currently pre-trib. I've never been 100% on any of those views, and doubt I ever will be. Flip flopping doesn't really bother me, but I'm still searching for a better understanding on each view.

Thanks much!

hi digreal.

I believe in a litteral 1000 years with Christ, but it will be in heaven.

John14:2-3 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go(there) and prepare a place for you, I will come back(here) and take you(there) to be with me(there) that you also may be where I am.
(Insertions mine)

my question to people is: Where is the fathers house on earth?? Answer to that is simple i think, no where. Father God is in heaven, that is where Jesus is now with Him. And that is where we will go for the thousand years. After that we will come back to a new heaven and earth.

bennie

DIZZY
Oct 20th 2008, 11:00 AM
So what is the point of the 1000yr reign if the unrighteous have been gathered together and thrown into the furnace. And please don't say not all have been gathered some are left, there is no mention in the bible of that statement.

The elect have been gathered from the four corners of heaven and earth and they are now immortal. What is the point of the millennial reign? Why not just pass the millennial reign collect your $200 and go straight to heaven.

What is there to reign overfor the thousand years?

DIZZY
Oct 20th 2008, 11:02 AM
Ill post a new thread soon showing peter was an Amill.

I'm quite sure this will be interesting to read. But I always thought he was nothing but human.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: But I could be wrong.

Saved!
Oct 21st 2008, 02:19 AM
I have always had the same question.....

Why, Oh why, does satan had to be loosened after the 1,000 years? Once he is defeated, why can't he just be destroyed then? Why wait?

I am sooooooo new to the whole 1,ooo reign information. Most of it seems so strange to me....the trib has passed, the wrath has occured, we have been raptured....we live with Christ 1,000 years.

Why will there be folks to still be swayed by satan? Who are they?

quiet dove
Oct 21st 2008, 03:02 AM
I have always had the same question.....

Why, Oh why, does satan had to be loosened after the 1,000 years? Once he is defeated, why can't he just be destroyed then? Why wait?

I am sooooooo new to the whole 1,ooo reign information. Most of it seems so strange to me....the trib has passed, the wrath has occured, we have been raptured....we live with Christ 1,000 years.

Why will there be folks to still be swayed by satan? Who are they?

The sequence of event according to MHO, premil wise. (and pre trib just for the record)

First off
--Satan was defeated on the Cross. Christ was victorious and believers, through Christ Jesus, are also victorious

1)Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the changing (Rapture-removing)of the living in Christ..."forever to be with Him"

2)The seven year tribulation

For what pertains more to your cmments:
3a)Christ returns, throws the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire and all those who have followed them die, but are not yet sent to the lake of fire, but they physically die and will be resurrected to face judgment and the second death after the thousand years are up.

3b)Those who are saved and alive when Jesus returns are the ones who then inhabit/repopulate the earth during the thousand years that Christ rules from Zion.


4)Satan is prevented from influencing men for a thousand years and as you said. During that thousand years Satan will not be "a lion, seeking whom he may devour" as scripture states he is doing at present, however, at the end of the thousand years he is permitted to do so again and will lead astray those who choose to follow him. And as we read in Rev 20, God nips that in the bud by devouring the rebellious, who will also, with all the other dead who have rejected Christ, be judged and face the second death.

It will not be the raptured or resurrected who have been changed and are with Christ forever from that point on who will be temped by Satan when he is released.

And as far as why, I have no idea, but it is what I believe scripure teaches, me figuring out why has no bearing on what I believe it says or does not say. God may or may not decide to tell QD the why of something.

Gods Child
Oct 21st 2008, 03:22 AM
hi digreal.

I believe in a litteral 1000 years with Christ, but it will be in heaven.

John14:2-3 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go(there) and prepare a place for you, I will come back(here) and take you(there) to be with me(there) that you also may be where I am.
(Insertions mine)

my question to people is: Where is the fathers house on earth?? Answer to that is simple i think, no where. Father God is in heaven, that is where Jesus is now with Him. And that is where we will go for the thousand years. After that we will come back to a new heaven and earth.

bennie

Rev 20 tells us that the 1000 years will be on earth.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

We do get raptured - Go to heaven for the Marriage Supper (Father's House) then we return to earth with Jesus on white horses for the 1000 year reign.

Here is what I see in the Bible.
Rev 14 -We are gathered.
Rev 19:1- We go to the Marriage Supper in heaven
Rev 19:14- We return to earth with Jesus on white horses
Rev 20;7-8 we reign with him (on earth) for the 1000 years.


Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 [/u]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen[/u], white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to [/u]deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth[/u], Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Roelof
Oct 21st 2008, 03:53 AM
I'm still kinda new to end time study. I've gone from post-trib to mid trib to pre wrath and am currently pre-trib.

Didreal

Our view point on the Trib is not important. My view point is that the Rapture will happen in the 1st half of the Trib

Just serve Jesus, persevere and be ready any time

I also can not wait for His Second Coming, which I reckon will be in our generation (I am now 48) :pp:pp:pp

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 02:48 PM
The sequence of event according to MHO, premil wise. (and pre trib just for the record)

First off
--Satan was defeated on the Cross. Christ was victorious and believers, through Christ Jesus, are also victorious

1)Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the changing (Rapture-removing)of the living in Christ..."forever to be with Him"

2)The seven year tribulation

For what pertains more to your cmments:
3a)Christ returns, throws the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire and all those who have followed them die, but are not yet sent to the lake of fire, but they physically die and will be resurrected to face judgment and the second death after the thousand years are up.

3b)Those who are saved and alive when Jesus returns are the ones who then inhabit/repopulate the earth during the thousand years that Christ rules from Zion.


4)Satan is prevented from influencing men for a thousand years and as you said. During that thousand years Satan will not be "a lion, seeking whom he may devour" as scripture states he is doing at present, however, at the end of the thousand years he is permitted to do so again and will lead astray those who choose to follow him. And as we read in Rev 20, God nips that in the bud by devouring the rebellious, who will also, with all the other dead who have rejected Christ, be judged and face the second death.

It will not be the raptured or resurrected who have been changed and are with Christ forever from that point on who will be temped by Satan when he is released.

And as far as why, I have no idea, but it is what I believe scripure teaches, me figuring out why has no bearing on what I believe it says or does not say. God may or may not decide to tell QD the why of something.Would you agree that believers will inherit the kingdom of God when we are changed and one cannot inherit the kingdom of God without first being changed bodily and putting on incorruption and immortality?

1 Cor 15
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I think we are probably in agreement so far. Here is another passage that talks about the timing of us inheriting the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

What we can see in this parable is that the householder did not want his servants, the reapers, to separate the wheat from the tares until the time of the harvest. What does that mean? Jesus explains the parable here:

Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Now we can see that the wheat represent the good seed which are the children of the kingdom. The tares are the children of the wicked one. So, the wheat represent believers and the tares represent unbelievers. At the end of the world (age - Greek "aion"), and not a moment sooner, the unbelievers will be separated from the believers. They will be cast "into a furnace of fire". Believers, on the other hand, will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.".

So, we will not inherit the kingdom of God the Father until the end of the age. Jesus returns at the end of the age (Matt 24). No one will inherit the kingdom seven years before the end of the age. That is not what Jesus taught. Believers and unbelievers stay in the world together right up until the end of the age. They are not separated seven years beforehand. At the time of the end of the age, believers will inherit the kingdom of the Father and unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.

quiet dove
Oct 21st 2008, 04:00 PM
So, we will not inherit the kingdom of God the Father until the end of the age. Jesus returns at the end of the age (Matt 24). No one will inherit the kingdom seven years before the end of the age. That is not what Jesus taught. Believers and unbelievers stay in the world together right up until the end of the age. They are not separated seven years beforehand. At the time of the end of the age, believers will inherit the kingdom of the Father and unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.

I was just trying to layout what I consider an accurate time line of pre mil/trib.

But your post led me to this question. If your position as amil is that we are now ruling with Christ and Satan is bound, does that not contradict the question, or the answer you are hoping me to give? How can we be ruling a kingdom we have not yet inherited? Which is off topic but I had to ask. I don't require a response even as to not derail the thread.

I also did not say there would not be believers and unbelievers in the world together. I specifically said that Christ would remove the unbelievers and the believers would be left to live into the thousand years. It's which believers and where they go that brings us to a disagreement

bennie
Oct 21st 2008, 04:14 PM
Rev 20 tells us that the 1000 years will be on earth.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

We do get raptured - Go to heaven for the Marriage Supper (Father's House) then we return to earth with Jesus on white horses for the 1000 year reign.

Here is what I see in the Bible.
Rev 14 -We are gathered.
Rev 19:1- We go to the Marriage Supper in heaven
Rev 19:14- We return to earth with Jesus on white horses
Rev 20;7-8 we reign with him (on earth) for the 1000 years.

so how long do we stay in heaven for the marriage supper? and then at what time do we come back to earth? when is the new heaven and earth made?
satan is in the abyss at this time. where is the abyss?? is it not the spirit realm.

bennie

wesand24
Oct 21st 2008, 08:54 PM
so how long do we stay in heaven for the marriage supper? and then at what time do we come back to earth? when is the new heaven and earth made?
satan is in the abyss at this time. where is the abyss?? is it not the spirit realm.
bennie

-The new heaven and new earth is made at the end of the 1000 years.
-Satan is in the bottomless pit during the 1000 years
-Where is the abyss? Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us..."
-When do we come back to earth? if we are raptured before the Trib. we will come back with Him at the end of the Trib., if we are raptured at the end of the trib. we will meet Him in the air and come with Him then at the same time
-It is jsut specutlation that the marriage supper will be in heaven during the tribulation, personally I believe the 1000 years might indeed be the marriage supper

DigReal
Oct 21st 2008, 11:45 PM
When do we come back to earth? if we are raptured before the Trib. we will come back with Him at the end of the Trib., if we are raptured at the end of the trib. we will meet Him in the air and come with Him then at the same time
-It is jsut specutlation that the marriage supper will be in heaven during the tribulation, personally I believe the 1000 years might indeed be the marriage supper

That's an interesting POV. I'll have to ponder it. Still, it leaves me with a problem I can't find a way to reconcile.

But as DIZZY asked: What is there to reign over for the thousand years?

I've decided I should no longer call myself pre-trib, since I'm just not certain of that POV. Yet, I definitely can't call myself post-trib. I do believe that the millennium reign will be on earth, but the post-trib POV leaves no one left to populate the world for that reign. In my mind, the mill reign WILL take place, and there has to be Christ believing survivors of the trib to populate the nations to be reigned over. Bennie, why would there be a 1000 year reign in heaven instead of earth, if we're promised to be with Him forever?

I've started a new study of the trib based only on the writings of John and Daniel, from a different POV (yet not a rapture POV), to see where that leads me. I'm thinking of posting it as it develops. :hmm:

Quiet Dove, I've watched as you've stood your ground in threads sometimes inhabited only by post-tribbers and amils (oh my), ;) and truly admire your conviction! I sometimes sit here and silently cheer you on, no matter what my own POV is that day. Guess you can call me a fan. :pp I am concerned, though, that you should be prepared for the trib... just in case (can't hurt). :hmm:

bennie
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:20 AM
That's an interesting POV. I'll have to ponder it. Still, it leaves me with a problem I can't find a way to reconcile.

But as DIZZY asked: What is there to reign over for the thousand years?

I've decided I should no longer call myself pre-trib, since I'm just not certain of that POV. Yet, I definitely can't call myself post-trib. I do believe that the millennium reign will be on earth, but the post-trib POV leaves no one left to populate the world for that reign. In my mind, the mill reign WILL take place, and there has to be Christ believing survivors of the trib to populate the nations to be reigned over. Bennie, why would there be a 1000 year reign in heaven instead of earth, if we're promised to be with Him forever?

I've started a new study of the trib based only on the writings of John and Daniel, from a different POV (yet not a rapture POV), to see where that leads me. I'm thinking of posting it as it develops. :hmm:

Quiet Dove, I've watched as you've stood your ground in threads sometimes inhabited only by post-tribbers and amils (oh my), ;) and truly admire your conviction! I sometimes sit here and silently cheer you on, no matter what my own POV is that day. Guess you can call me a fan. :pp I am concerned, though, that you should be prepared for the trib... just in case (can't hurt). :hmm:


hi digreal

i dont see the 1000 years in heaven as a few people ruling over other people.
I believe this is the time where the saints will sit with Jesus and figure out how much restitution the wicked will need to do. The saints will judge the wicked and the angels. After the thousand years the resurection of the wicked dead will happen, then they will receive there punishment.

I dont believe in a 7 year trib period. i believe the bible teaches the great trib is 1335 days in lenght.

bennie

where in the bible does it say that Jesus walks on the earth at His seconds advent?

wesand24
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:36 AM
Zechariah 14 states that He will set foot on the Mount of Olives, and I imagine after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives He also will do some walking

quiet dove
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:40 AM
Quiet Dove, I've watched as you've stood your ground in threads sometimes inhabited only by post-tribbers and amils (oh my), ;) and truly admire your conviction! I sometimes sit here and silently cheer you on, no matter what my own POV is that day. Guess you can call me a fan. :pp I am concerned, though, that you should be prepared for the trib... just in case (can't hurt). :hmm:

Thank you for the kind words. When I first came here I had not really confronted the many different thoughts that are presented. Even within each camp there are new thoughts brought forth. I guess maybe folks might not believe me when I say that I did/do put forth much effort and digging in study to ojectively consider all that was/is said. And I have learned much from folks of all views. I have also learned it is wise to listen to all objectively because you never know just who may end up the one sent to teach you something that day.

I appreciate your concern for my well being if I should be here for the trib. But I firmly believe that if we are not prepared before we endure it, we will not fair very well trying to endure it. It is my opinion that refinement of the believer comes throuigh obedience, obedience in all situations, be it the grocery store cashier gave you a dollar to much change, or the AC is chopping your head off. Obedience brings refinement, seeking to do all things according to Christ. IN other words, start today to be refined, better to take the gentle course than the quick tribulation course. Not that I have achieved that goal but I hope tomorrow to be more refined than I was today. I know I sure long for the day when this flesh is no longer an issue.

And even being pre trib, I am not a pre tibber who does not see some very difficult times ahead for all. We are going to need each other, that is something the Lord seems to be pressing upon me. I have never made any claims here in ETC of the Lord saying this or that, and I certainly struggle and pray to know His will, but if anything has ever been impressed upon me, it is that we lack the unity of love for one another and it breaks the Lords heart. We do not have to all agree on the issues, but we can have the unity of love.

Dani H
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:56 AM
I have never made any claims here in ETC of the Lord saying this or that, and I certainly struggle and pray to know His will, but if anything has ever been impressed upon me, it is that we lack the unity of love for one another and it breaks the Lords heart. We do not have to all agree on the issues, but we can have the unity of love.

Pardon me, but I don't think you're struggling to know God's will, because right there it is. Regardless of what we believe the future brings, we all know how to act today. :)

bennie
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:48 AM
Zechariah 14 states that He will set foot on the Mount of Olives, and I imagine after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives He also will do some walking


have you heard of Jesus 1st advent???

bennie

wesand24
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:07 AM
Zechariah 14 also states that Mount of Olives will cleave in two forming a great valley

Gods Child
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:44 AM
so how long do we stay in heaven for the marriage supper? and then at what time do we come back to earth? when is the new heaven and earth made?
satan is in the abyss at this time. where is the abyss?? is it not the spirit realm.

bennie

What I see is we are taken at the 7th trumpet (Rev 14). We receive the Marriage supper in the beginning of Rev 19 and by the mid/end of Rev 19 we return to earth with Jesus. How ever long of time period that is, the bible is not quite clear.
After we return with Jesus, we reign with him the 1000 years. Satan is then bound for the 1000 years. Where he is bound, it does not say. After the 1000 years Satan is then let loose for a little while to deceive those of the earth (nations). Then the White thrown Judgment.

Gods Child
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:04 AM
What is there to reign overfor the thousand years?

Whether pre or post, I think both agree that it is Israel that the Lord comes back to fight for in the battle of Armageddon.

Who is on the earth during the 1000 years?

Well Israel (who was in the battle of Armageddon) would be one group of people. As we are told in Roman 11 that blindness has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and All of Israel shall be saved.
I think Israel would be the ones left on the earth. Isaiah 65 paints the same picture of Jesus in Jerusalem and Israel being there building houses and such. Jerusalem is on earth and if you read Isaiah 65, you can see this.

Also, Daniel 7 tells us that after Jesus comes in the clouds the Nations are prolonged for a season and a time.
Rev 20-Who are these Nations that Satin deceives and why are we told that the Nations stay for a season and a time in Daniel 7? Is the 1000 years the season and time?

Combine that with Rev 20 in that we see that the Nations are still on the earth for Satin to deceive at the end of the 1000 years. Also Isaiah 11 & 65 tells us the Nations plus Israel will be present on the earth with Jesus after Jesus comes back.


We are only told that the beast and false profit are sent to the Lake of fire at the end of the Trib. Satin is not even cast in the lake of fire until after the 1000 years. The dead are judged after the 1000 years, but who are they that are alive during the 1000 years is the question.

I also think that Children who went through the tribulation would also be considered for the 1000 years to make their decision as to whom they will serve.


Notice that all of Israel will be saved AFTER the fullness of the Gentiles comes in Rom 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Notice; I (Jesus) will rejoice in Jerusalem-A child shall die 100 (death human advent)-My people and my elect Isaiah 65: 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; [/u]for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.[/u] 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Notice; thrones cast down-Ancient of days (Jesus sits)-Beast (antichrist) thrown into the fire-the rest of the beast (nations) had their dominion taken away, but their lives prolonged-Jesus given dominion Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Notice; only beast & false profit (not Satan) thrown into lake of fire Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Notice; It says EARTH -Satan bound for 1000 years – after 1000 years Satan deceives the NATIONS (Nations life prolonged Dan 7) Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Notice; EARTH full of the knowledge of the Lord –Gentiles seek(Nations)-2nd time to recover the remnant of his people- Nations and outcast of Israel and gather them together Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


A lot to consider and a lot to read, but worth the while to know the truth.

Gods Child
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:20 AM
Zechariah 14 also states that Mount of Olives will cleave in two forming a great valley

Zechariah 14 speaks of the time that Jesus Comes back for the battle and what happens after that.

It says; - Gather all nations against Jerusalem this has to be Armageddon.- His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives before Jerusalem and the Lord shall be King over all the EARTH. And it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the NATIONS shall go year to year to worship Jesus.

This depicts the earth – after Jesus returns and seems pretty clear that Jesus reins will be on earth.


Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.:3 [/u]Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations[/u], as when he fought in the day of battle.4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:32 PM
When Christ returns do the believers go into the kingdom in their mortal bodies?No, they do not. I'm going to repeat what I said earlier because I think it was overlooked, but it is very relevant to your question. Let me know what you think.

Would you agree that believers will inherit the kingdom of God when we are changed and one cannot inherit the kingdom of God without first being changed bodily and putting on incorruption and immortality?

1 Cor 15
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I think we are probably in agreement so far. Here is another passage that talks about the timing of us inheriting the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

What we can see in this parable is that the householder did not want his servants, the reapers, to separate the wheat from the tares until the time of the harvest. What does that mean? Jesus explains the parable here:

Matthew 13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Now we can see that the wheat represent the good seed which are the children of the kingdom. The tares are the children of the wicked one. So, the wheat represent believers and the tares represent unbelievers. At the end of the world (age - Greek "aion"), and not a moment sooner, the unbelievers will be separated from the believers. They will be cast "into a furnace of fire". Believers, on the other hand, will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.".

So, we will not inherit the kingdom of God the Father until the end of the age. Jesus returns at the end of the age (Matt 24). No one will inherit the kingdom seven years before the end of the age. That is not what Jesus taught. Believers and unbelievers stay in the world together right up until the end of the age. They are not separated seven years beforehand. At the time of the end of the age, believers will inherit the kingdom of the Father and unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire.

bennie
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:18 PM
well i agree with some.

Jesus did not teach a 7 year trib either my friend. nor did Daniel or John.
choosing some of scripture and some not to form a view is not right.
Daniel 12 is so clear on how long this whole event is. But people get stuck on Dan 9 so much, that they need to disstort(IMHO) the rest to make sence.

bennie

wesand24
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:37 PM
The final 3 1/2 half years is the great tribulation, you are correct. The prior three and 1/2 years the Antichrist has a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will break that covenant, thus beginning the tribulation. Daniel 9:27

DigReal
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:16 PM
hi digreal

i dont see the 1000 years in heaven as a few people ruling over other people.
I believe this is the time where the saints will sit with Jesus and figure out how much restitution the wicked will need to do. The saints will judge the wicked and the angels. After the thousand years the resurection of the wicked dead will happen, then they will receive there punishment.

I dont believe in a 7 year trib period. i believe the bible teaches the great trib is 1335 days in lenght.

bennie

where in the bible does it say that Jesus walks on the earth at His seconds advent?

Hi bennie, thanks for the reply. Looks like Gods Child and a few others have already addressed your question far better than I could ever hope to, so won't go into that. Would like to say, though, I'm looking forward to serving our Lord where ever it may be. But I'm REALLY looking forward to it being on earth for a millennium... I think that will be a fascinating experience.

DigReal
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:27 PM
Thank you for the kind words. When I first came here I had not really confronted the many different thoughts that are presented. Even within each camp there are new thoughts brought forth. I guess maybe folks might not believe me when I say that I did/do put forth much effort and digging in study to ojectively consider all that was/is said. And I have learned much from folks of all views. I have also learned it is wise to listen to all objectively because you never know just who may end up the one sent to teach you something that day.

I appreciate your concern for my well being if I should be here for the trib. But I firmly believe that if we are not prepared before we endure it, we will not fair very well trying to endure it. It is my opinion that refinement of the believer comes throuigh obedience, obedience in all situations, be it the grocery store cashier gave you a dollar to much change, or the AC is chopping your head off. Obedience brings refinement, seeking to do all things according to Christ. IN other words, start today to be refined, better to take the gentle course than the quick tribulation course. Not that I have achieved that goal but I hope tomorrow to be more refined than I was today. I know I sure long for the day when this flesh is no longer an issue.

And even being pre trib, I am not a pre tibber who does not see some very difficult times ahead for all. We are going to need each other, that is something the Lord seems to be pressing upon me. I have never made any claims here in ETC of the Lord saying this or that, and I certainly struggle and pray to know His will, but if anything has ever been impressed upon me, it is that we lack the unity of love for one another and it breaks the Lords heart. We do not have to all agree on the issues, but we can have the unity of love.

And thank you, too, QD. I agree with you completely... especially the last sentence. :)

bennie
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:47 AM
The final 3 1/2 half years is the great tribulation, you are correct. The prior three and 1/2 years the Antichrist has a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will break that covenant, thus beginning the tribulation. Daniel 9:27


hi wesand

Dan 9 was perfectly fullfilled at the cross. In the middle of the week did Christ die for our sins. And He confirmed the covenant that was made.
Like i sead before, I believe the GT is 1335 days in lenght. Not two 3 and one half years.

bennie

Gods Child
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:04 AM
hi wesand

Dan 9 was perfectly fullfilled at the cross. In the middle of the week did Christ die for our sins. And He confirmed the covenant that was made.
Like i sead before, I believe the GT is 1335 days in lenght. Not two 3 and one half years.

bennie

Bennie,

There is something that I think that you should take a look at and consider;

To say that Daniel 9:26-27 is speaking totally about Jesus is to say that Jesus is the “prince of the Covenant. This can not be so, because Daniel 11:21-22 tells us that the “prince of the Covenant” is a VILE person.

Also, Daniel 9: 24 tells us that 70 weeks are determined. Verse 25 says there is seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: (7+60+2=69 weeks) Verse 26 says Jesus is cut off at the 69th week (threescore and two weeks) which leaves one week left to be fulfilled. (A week equals 7 years as it is week of years) Which is a 7 year period.

Also Dan 8 tells us about the “little horn” and says;
….by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,…..for at the time of the end shall be the vision. …..he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
By this we see that this little horn is the prince of the covenant and then this prince will come at the time of the end and he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Jesus).
This would have to mean that Dan 9 is not speaking of Jesus as the one who takes away the daily sacrifice at the end.

Mathew 24, Jesus told us (24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Jesus was referring to Daniel 9 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate Jesus in Mathew 24 was talking about the tribulation time…Why would Jesus say this if it was Jesus who fulfilled Daniel 9?

What I see in Daniel 9 is the Messiah is cut off…..
Then the prince that shall come shall confirm the Covenant (Dan 11=Prince of covenant is a vile person). The prince of the covenant (vile person) will fulfill the 70th week (last 7 years) that has not been fulfilled yet.


Something to look at and consider;



Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Daniel 9:24-27)

And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant. (Daniel 11:21-22)

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Matthew 24:15)

I’m sorry I did not mean to hijack the thread, but I wanted you to see this.

wesand24
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:39 PM
Daniel 9:26 "prince who is to some" -not Christ -"even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
Daniel 9:27 says he seems to break the covenant in the middle of the week, it doesn't say he fulfills it
"and on the wing of ABOMONATIONS will come one who makes DESOLATE, even until a complete destruction..."
-this doesn't ^^^ sound like Christ to me!

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:29 PM
Daniel 9:26 "prince who is to some" -not Christ -"even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
Daniel 9:27 says he seems to break the covenant in the middle of the week, it doesn't say he fulfills it
"and on the wing of ABOMONATIONS will come one who makes DESOLATE, even until a complete destruction..."
-this doesn't ^^^ sound like Christ to me!It does to me.

Matthew 23:37-24:2
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus rendered their house, which was their temple, desolate in a spiritual sense. He was telling them that God would no longer meet with them there because of their rebellion against Him. Then in 70 AD the temple was destroyed physically. That is what Daniel 9:27 is talking about when it says it would be desolate "even until a complete destruction". The temple was already declared to be desolate by Christ well before it was actually physically destroyed and made physically desolate.

bennie
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:30 PM
Bennie,

There is something that I think that you should take a look at and consider;

To say that Daniel 9:26-27 is speaking totally about Jesus is to say that Jesus is the “prince of the Covenant. This can not be so, because Daniel 11:21-22 tells us that the “prince of the Covenant” is a VILE person.

Also, Daniel 9: 24 tells us that 70 weeks are determined. Verse 25 says there is seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: (7+60+2=69 weeks) Verse 26 says Jesus is cut off at the 69th week (threescore and two weeks) which leaves one week left to be fulfilled. (A week equals 7 years as it is week of years) Which is a 7 year period.

Also Dan 8 tells us about the “little horn” and says;
….by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,…..for at the time of the end shall be the vision. …..he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
By this we see that this little horn is the prince of the covenant and then this prince will come at the time of the end and he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Jesus).
This would have to mean that Dan 9 is not speaking of Jesus as the one who takes away the daily sacrifice at the end.

Mathew 24, Jesus told us (24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Jesus was referring to Daniel 9 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate Jesus in Mathew 24 was talking about the tribulation time…Why would Jesus say this if it was Jesus who fulfilled Daniel 9?

What I see in Daniel 9 is the Messiah is cut off…..
Then the prince that shall come shall confirm the Covenant (Dan 11=Prince of covenant is a vile person). The prince of the covenant (vile person) will fulfill the 70th week (last 7 years) that has not been fulfilled yet.


Something to look at and consider;




I’m sorry I did not mean to hijack the thread, but I wanted you to see this.

but you are saying that the horn in dan 8 and dan 7 are the same. not so my friend. it IS two different prophecys. The horn in dan 8 speaks of the time of the end right? we can not put a horn where there should not be one.( sorry, the best way i can say it:D)
According to my calculations Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week. not at the end of the 69th week.
I asked this before some where els. maybe you have an answer. please understand that am saying this with humility and grace: what day comes after Monday. It is Tuesday. When our little clocks tick over to 12:00 am, anew day starts. when the 69th week ended the 70 th week started. time is a continium. it never ends. God almighty said there are70 weeks decreed for them to stop there nonsence and sin and everything else. He even came to earth Himself to come and make a nation of preist. But no, He's own did not receive Him. That is way He(Jesus) gave the Gospel to selfselecting people(gentiles). People who will chosse to serve God. How awsome is OuR God.

bennie

wesand24
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:39 PM
Bennie,
What do you do with the abomonations and desolations part of the same verses??

bennie
Oct 24th 2008, 12:52 AM
Bennie,
What do you do with the abomonations and desolations part of the same verses??


hi wesand

i am going to buzy the next couple of days. So i will get back to you.

bennie

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2008, 02:46 AM
Thank you for the kind words. When I first came here I had not really confronted the many different thoughts that are presented. Even within each camp there are new thoughts brought forth. I guess maybe folks might not believe me when I say that I did/do put forth much effort and digging in study to ojectively consider all that was/is said. And I have learned much from folks of all views. I have also learned it is wise to listen to all objectively because you never know just who may end up the one sent to teach you something that day.

I appreciate your concern for my well being if I should be here for the trib. But I firmly believe that if we are not prepared before we endure it, we will not fair very well trying to endure it. It is my opinion that refinement of the believer comes throuigh obedience, obedience in all situations, be it the grocery store cashier gave you a dollar to much change, or the AC is chopping your head off. Obedience brings refinement, seeking to do all things according to Christ. IN other words, start today to be refined, better to take the gentle course than the quick tribulation course. Not that I have achieved that goal but I hope tomorrow to be more refined than I was today. I know I sure long for the day when this flesh is no longer an issue.

And even being pre trib, I am not a pre tibber who does not see some very difficult times ahead for all. We are going to need each other, that is something the Lord seems to be pressing upon me. I have never made any claims here in ETC of the Lord saying this or that, and I certainly struggle and pray to know His will, but if anything has ever been impressed upon me, it is that we lack the unity of love for one another and it breaks the Lords heart. We do not have to all agree on the issues, but we can have the unity of love.

Here Here QD. I was just thinking the same thing today as I took my washing off the line this morning. I was thinking we all may have different views when it comes to the end times, but what really counts is we are all unified in the Lord and what He has done for us through the cross.

I am a pre-trib as you all know and I will defend my belief. I believe Christ will return for us before the tribulation comes upon the world. I believe we will return with Him when He comes back with His armies, yet we will not fight. I believe we will reign with Him for 1000yrs and I also believe we will be there in the day of final judgment. I believe once in our final abode we will take our place in the New Jerusalem forever to be with the Lord. Praising and worshiping Him who died for us.

Throughout the Bible the theme in heaven with the angels, four living creatures, and elders it seems to be worship. That's what we will be doing when we go home, worshiping our Lord and King. Amen

I think I might dive deep into a study about the rapture.

But what I really want to know at the moment is where in the Bible does it say Christ's second coming? We all say Christ's second coming but I have never seen those words written in the Bible.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 24th 2008, 02:58 AM
But what I really want to know at the moment is where in the Bible does it say Christ's second coming? We all say Christ's second coming but I have never seen those words written in the Bible.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


Go well

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2008, 04:19 AM
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7
well

Hi ƒσяєяυииєя,
I know and understand what 1 Thess 4:16 says, but it doesn't actually say Christ's second coming. It says He will descend from heaven.

I believe this is speaking of an appearance before His return at the end of the tribulation.

Got to go to work for a hour be back soon to discuss this further.

God Bless
Go

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2008, 07:15 AM
The Lord Himself will come down and get us with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


I believe the above verse speaks of an appearance before the Lords return. It speaks of the rapture of the church.

There is no gathering together here, the dead are raised and they shall receive their new bodies and we are changed in a twinkling of an eye, then we all shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord. We will all receive our spiritual bodies at the same time.

The Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation period with those He raised in the rapture.

Revelation 19:13,14

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

This verse speaks of the Lord as the Lamb with His clothes dipped in blood who is The Word of God.

The armies which follow Him are clothed in fine Linen, white and clean.

The church is the only one who has washed herself in the blood of the Lamb, therefore her clothes have been made white and clean through Christ's blood.

What about those in the tribulation period aren't they cover by the blood of the Lamb?

During the tribulation period it reverts back to the way it was in Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham's day just to mention a few people who were saved by faith. You can find the hall of faith in Hebrews 11.

I am not saying we don't live by faith and we are not saved by our faith, we are our faith is in Jesus Christ and what He done for us on the cross nothing else.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The church has gone, the trial has begun and once again the testing of faith will begin.

Revelation 3:10
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The signs we see here we do not see when the church is taken away. The sun is not darkened, and the moons light is not dulled and the stars do not fall from heaven.

These are signs of Christ's return to the earth, with His armies to reign from Jerusalem for 1000yrs and I have explained who the armies are above.

Matthew 24:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=31&version=50&context=verse)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

IMHO the Lord returns for His Bride and then the marriage supper is at the end of the tribulation where the Jews and gentiles that have survived the tribulation will sit down with the Lord and His Bride and the uninvited guests will be cast out into outer darkness.

Matthew 8:10-12
10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Just a thought some food for thought. In the rapture scene the Lord does not touch the earth, He remains in the Heavens. At His return His feet touch ground where He will reign from Jerusalem. Zechariah 12 - 14 speaks about this time.

Some say that none believers from the nations that survive will go into the kingdom. This is not true the above verses state different, all those who do not believe are cast into outer darkness awaiting the time of the Great White Throne Judgment.

Gods Child
Oct 24th 2008, 12:04 PM
Hi ƒσяєяυииєя,
I know and understand what 1 Thess 4:16 says, but it doesn't actually say Christ's second coming. It says He will descend from heaven.

I believe this is speaking of an appearance before His return at the end of the tribulation.

Go

You are correct, the bible does not say “2nd coming”.
The phrase 2nd coming comes from common sense. If Jesus came once and then is to come again- that would be his 2nd coming and this is why people say 2nd coming.

The phrases used in the bible to describe that day are; Lord coming, Jesus coming & Day of the Lord.

Here are some examples of those phrases from the New Testament.
I have listed some of the rapture & some of his 2nd coming scriptures so you can see them. We also see this in the Old Testament prophets, such as Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and throughout the OT. I just listed some of the New Testament scriptures. Hope this helps.



Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

Mt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mk 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mk 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Lk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

1 Cor 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Phil 1:26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Tim 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Jas 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Pet 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Veretax
Oct 24th 2008, 12:29 PM
but you are saying that the horn in dan 8 and dan 7 are the same. not so my friend. it IS two different prophecys. The horn in dan 8 speaks of the time of the end right? we can not put a horn where there should not be one.( sorry, the best way i can say it:D)
According to my calculations Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week. not at the end of the 69th week.
I asked this before some where els. maybe you have an answer. please understand that am saying this with humility and grace: what day comes after Monday. It is Tuesday. When our little clocks tick over to 12:00 am, anew day starts. when the 69th week ended the 70 th week started. time is a continium. it never ends. God almighty said there are70 weeks decreed for them to stop there nonsence and sin and everything else. He even came to earth Himself to come and make a nation of preist. But no, He's own did not receive Him. That is way He(Jesus) gave the Gospel to selfselecting people(gentiles). People who will chosse to serve God. How awsome is OuR God.

bennie

Except that the jewish day begins at the evening through morning I believe. Also. the 70AD thing I'm not following why the date of that is so important. Christ died well before that did he not?

Gods Child
Oct 24th 2008, 12:57 PM
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael), and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


I believe the above verse speaks of an appearance before the Lords return. It speaks of the rapture of the church.

There is no gathering together here, the dead are raised and they shall receive their new bodies and we are changed in a twinkling of an eye, then we all shall be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord. We will all receive our spiritual bodies at the same time.

The Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation period with those He raised in the rapture.
1 Thes 4 is the rapture, but it does not say when this happens (beginning or end of the tribulation).


Revelation 19:13,14

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

This verse speaks of the Lord as the Lamb with His clothes dipped in blood who is The Word of God.

The armies which follow Him are clothed in fine Linen, white and clean.

The church is the only one who has washed herself in the blood of the Lamb, therefore her clothes have been made white and clean through Christ's blood.

What about those in the tribulation period aren't they cover by the blood of the Lamb?
The Saints in the tribulation are covered by the same blood as we are and are part of the Church (aka promises made to the church of rapture/marriage supper)
The Trib Saints are also arrayed in white robes, which shows us that they are part of the promise and shows us that the Church is not gone during the Great tribulation.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.




During the tribulation period it reverts back to the way it was in Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham's day just to mention a few people who were saved by faith. You can find the hall of faith in Hebrews 11.

I am not saying we don't live by faith and we are not saved by our faith, we are our faith is in Jesus Christ and what He done for us on the cross nothing else.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8For[y] by grace are ye saved through faith[/u]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The church has gone, the trial has begun and once again the testing of faith will begin.
This scripture does not say we will revert back to the Old Testament law.
Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. There is nothing in the bible that says we will revert back to the OT during the tribulation. Ephesians 2 tells us "By Grace are ye saved through faith. "By Grace" is speaking of the Church period.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)



Revelation 3:10
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The signs we see here we do not see when the church is taken away. The sun is not darkened, and the moons light is not dulled and the stars do not fall from heaven.

These are signs of Christ's return to the earth, with His armies to reign from Jerusalem for 1000yrs and I have explained who the armies are above.

Yes, this scripture does not say that the Church is taken away at this time.
The bible tells us when Jesus comes and takes us. It is found in Revelation 14:14-16 at the time of the 7th trumpet (last trump=1 Cor 15:52).

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Matthew 24:31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
.

Jesus told us here that Immediately AFTER the tribulation he will gather together his elect. The bible tells us the Elect are the Church.
If Jesus said After the Tribulation he will gather his elect (church), then I think that it just can not get any plainer that, as to when the Rapture happens.


Lk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1 Thess 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
2 Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 Pet 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Since Jesus will go after one that goes astray, I do not see how he would ever make one “left behind” and I do not see in scripture that it ever says he would make one “left behind”.

quiet dove
Oct 24th 2008, 06:20 PM
But what I really want to know at the moment is where in the Bible does it say Christ's second coming? We all say Christ's second coming but I have never seen those words written in the Bible.

Iam not sure that "second coming" is actually stated. I think it is a term used to describe and event. Just like when He came in humility to pay for our sins we term the First Advent.

However, in the OT the times He was to come were not numbered either and the people assumed once, to restore the kingdom of Israel.

To me Second Advent describes His return in glory to take full possession what is rightfully His.

And maybe we will meet soon on the way up sister!!!

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 24th 2008, 06:29 PM
Hi ƒσяєяυииєя,
I know and understand what 1 Thess 4:16 says, but it doesn't actually say Christ's second coming. It says He will descend from heaven.

I believe this is speaking of an appearance before His return at the end of the tribulation.

Got to go to work for a hour be back soon to discuss this further.

God Bless
Go

Job said:

Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh? Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:22-27

Go well

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2008, 08:10 PM
Iam not sure that "second coming" is actually stated. I think it is a term used to describe and event. Just like when He came in humility to pay for our sins we term the First Advent.

However, in the OT the times He was to come were not numbered either and the people assumed once, to restore the kingdom of Israel.

To me Second Advent describes His return in glory to take full possession what is rightfully His.

And maybe we will meet soon on the way up sister!!!

Thankyou QD,
Could He not appear to His bride before He comes to take back what rightfully belongs to Him when He comes visably to the whole world.

IMHO I believe He returns fore the church before the tribulation starts.

quiet dove
Oct 24th 2008, 10:29 PM
Thankyou QD,
Could He not appear to His bride before He comes to take back what rightfully belongs to Him when He comes visably to the whole world.

IMHO I believe He returns fore the church before the tribulation starts.

IMHO

Yep and ditto - :)

bennie
Oct 25th 2008, 03:43 AM
Except that the jewish day begins at the evening through morning I believe. Also. the 70AD thing I'm not following why the date of that is so important. Christ died well before that did he not?

hi Veretax

yip, i know Gods day starts at sunset. that is why i sead "our little clocks". i was a little sarcastic. sorry should not have been. most people dont see Gods time, they just see mans time. i was just trying to make the point that there is no break in time. when one day ends the next begins.

That is way i say( and calculated) that the 70th week of daniel 9 happend right after the 69th week. there is no 2000 year period between the 69th and 70th week.

I did not refer in the post you quoted to 70AD. that was when the temple was destroyd.
the 70th week ended in 33AD.

bennie

SeekingWisdom
Oct 25th 2008, 06:45 PM
I thought only those Christians killed during the Tribulation (Satan's) were coming back for the 1,000 year reign and the rest of the Christians will rise after Satan is defeated once and for all? That's how I read Revelation.

DIZZY
Oct 26th 2008, 10:35 AM
I thought only those Christians killed during the Tribulation (Satan's) were coming back for the 1,000 year reign and the rest of the Christians will rise after Satan is defeated once and for all? That's how I read Revelation.

Hi seeking wisdom,

No in Daniel it tells us that the Old Testament saints will rise at the end of the tribulation. So they will be raised at the end of days. Which is actually refering to the end of this era.

Daniel 12:13
13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Then in Thess 3:13 we see the Lord returning with all the His saints.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=3&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

When we look in Rev 19 we see that the time has come for the marriage supper of the Lamb and His bride. Now the bride of the lamb is the church which was taken before the tribulation period.

Revelation 19:1-16
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 20:4
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Those who sit on the thrones are the twenty four elders, which seem to symbolize the church in heaven.

Revelation 4:10,11
10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

So the Old testament saints and all the new testament saints will be in Jerusalem with the Lord reigning.

DIZZY
Oct 26th 2008, 12:03 PM
1 Thes 4 is the rapture, but it does not say when this happens (beginning or end of the tribulation).


The Saints in the tribulation are covered by the same blood as we are and are part of the Church (aka promises made to the church of rapture/marriage supper)
The Trib Saints are also arrayed in white robes, which shows us that they are part of the promise and shows us that the Church is not gone during the Great tribulation.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.




This scripture does not say we will revert back to the Old Testament law.
Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. There is nothing in the bible that says we will revert back to the OT during the tribulation. Ephesians 2 tells us "By Grace are ye saved through faith. "By Grace" is speaking of the Church period.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)




Yes, this scripture does not say that the Church is taken away at this time.
The bible tells us when Jesus comes and takes us. It is found in Revelation 14:14-16 at the time of the 7th trumpet (last trump=1 Cor 15:52).

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



Jesus told us here that Immediately AFTER the tribulation he will gather together his elect. The bible tells us the Elect are the Church.
If Jesus said After the Tribulation he will gather his elect (church), then I think that it just can not get any plainer that, as to when the Rapture happens.



Since Jesus will go after one that goes astray, I do not see how he would ever make one “left behind” and I do not see in scripture that it ever says he would make one “left behind”.

Hi Gods Child,
sorry to take so long in getting back to you, one thing i need to address is what I said about the church.

I know that during the time of the tribulation people are only saved by the blood of the Lamb and salvation only comes through Christ. What I was trying to say is that the Church (bride) will not be here on earth that door would shut the day the Lord returns for His bride. The church is no longer mentioned throughout revelation. People are saved through the preaching of the 144,000 and the angels flying through the air with the everlasting Gospel message and let's not forget the two witnesses. The tribulation saints is totally different to the bride.

Yes the tribulation saints are apart of Gods promises but they are not apart of the rapture that happens before the tribulation.

Yes the tribulation saints also have white robes for they have washed themselves in the blood of the Lamb. Once again they are not apart of the bride.

I didn't say during the tribulation it would revert back to the Old Testament law. What I said was it will be like in Abrahams time.

If we really look at it, we all are saved by God's grace from the beginning of time till the end. With God's grace comes faith.

Abraham believed and looked forward to the promise of a deliverer, we look back to the cross.

Who are the elect Christs angels are gathering?

Isaiah 65:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=65&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.


Isaiah 45:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=45&verse=4&version=9&context=verse)
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Matthew 24:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Israel is still apart of the elect group we can not deny God's chosen people.

God always used a trumpet to call His people to Him. He will use a trumpet to call His bride (the church) to Him.

SeekingWisdom
Oct 26th 2008, 09:06 PM
I thought only those Christians killed during the Tribulation (Satan's) were coming back for the 1,000 year reign and the rest of the Christians will rise after Satan is defeated once and for all? That's how I read Revelation.


Hi seeking wisdom,

No in Daniel it tells us that the Old Testament saints will rise at the end of the tribulation. So they will be raised at the end of days. Which is actually refering to the end of this era.



Maybe it's the translation but my bible says

Rev 20:4-6
Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls
of those who had been killed because they were faithful
to the message of Jesus and the message from God. They
had not worshiped the beast or his idol, and they had
not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads
or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled
with Christ for a thousand years. 5(The others
that were dead did not live again until the thousand
years were ended) This is the first raising of the dead.


This is from my New Century Version.

Nope, it's not the translation. I just flipped through my King James and it basically says the same thing without the parenthesis.

DIZZY
Oct 27th 2008, 12:36 AM
Maybe it's the translation but my bible says

Rev 20:4-6
Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls
of those who had been killed because they were faithful
to the message of Jesus and the message from God. They
had not worshiped the beast or his idol, and they had
not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads
or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled
with Christ for a thousand years. 5(The others
that were dead did not live again until the thousand
years were ended) This is the first raising of the dead.


This is from my New Century Version.

Nope, it's not the translation. I just flipped through my King James and it basically says the same thing without the parenthesis.

Hi SeekingWisdom,

Just need to mention something here. God is the God of the living not the dead.

Matthew 22:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=32&version=9&context=verse)
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

All those who are alive in Christ are there at the end of the tribulation period even those from the Old Testament who believed in the promises of a Messiah. They are all there.

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first ressurection includes the Old Testament saints, the bride (church), and the tribulation saint.

The rest of the dead is refering to those who died in their sins. They will be judged at the end of the Millennial kingdom, when they will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity.

Once again God is the God of the living not the dead, even though Abraham ,Jacob and Isaac were physically dead, they were not spiritually dead, therefore they are the living not the dead and the same can be said of all those who die in Christ. They are the living not the dead.

Kudo Shinichi
Oct 27th 2008, 02:22 PM
I agree with Quiet Dove, because what most of my church speakers say so...;)
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The sequence of event according to MHO, premil wise. (and pre trib just for the record)

First off
--Satan was defeated on the Cross. Christ was victorious and believers, through Christ Jesus, are also victorious

1)Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the changing (Rapture-removing)of the living in Christ..."forever to be with Him"

2)The seven year tribulation

For what pertains more to your cmments:
3a)Christ returns, throws the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire and all those who have followed them die, but are not yet sent to the lake of fire, but they physically die and will be resurrected to face judgment and the second death after the thousand years are up.

3b)Those who are saved and alive when Jesus returns are the ones who then inhabit/repopulate the earth during the thousand years that Christ rules from Zion.


4)Satan is prevented from influencing men for a thousand years and as you said. During that thousand years Satan will not be "a lion, seeking whom he may devour" as scripture states he is doing at present, however, at the end of the thousand years he is permitted to do so again and will lead astray those who choose to follow him. And as we read in Rev 20, God nips that in the bud by devouring the rebellious, who will also, with all the other dead who have rejected Christ, be judged and face the second death.

It will not be the raptured or resurrected who have been changed and are with Christ forever from that point on who will be temped by Satan when he is released.

And as far as why, I have no idea, but it is what I believe scripure teaches, me figuring out why has no bearing on what I believe it says or does not say. God may or may not decide to tell QD the why of something.

DIZZY
Oct 28th 2008, 09:46 PM
I agree with Quiet Dove, because what most of my church speakers say so...;)
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Hi Shinichi Kudo,
Don't believe because other people say the same as what your church says. Believe because you have studied the word and that is what the word says.

Take the teachings of your church and other people and see if it fits in with what the Bible says. The Bible is the word of God and it never lies.

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:51 PM
Thanks Dizzy, I know about that...but got to stick close to my church believes because most of my ex-church members were strictly kick out after they didn't follow closely brethren believes.:saint: Well, my church is busy learning about the biblical doctrines but not too much time spend on End Time Studies.

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 09:40 PM
Thanks Dizzy, I know about that...but got to stick close to my church believes because most of my ex-church members were strictly kick out after they didn't follow closely brethren believes.:saint: Well, my church is busy learning about the biblical doctrines but not too much time spend on End Time Studies.Be like the Bereans. You don't have to believe what your church believes. You should search the scriptures for yourself and let the Holy Spirit show you the truth instead of relying on your church doctrine.

Acts 17
10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

DIZZY
Nov 4th 2008, 11:43 PM
Thanks Dizzy, I know about that...but got to stick close to my church believes because most of my ex-church members were strictly kick out after they didn't follow closely brethren believes.:saint: Well, my church is busy learning about the biblical doctrines but not too much time spend on End Time Studies.


Christian teachers should promote, (and the Bible teaches) us to be Bereans and search out all things, we are not bound to what men say, but only what the Bible says.

Allow the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth, if you ask the Holy Spirit He will show you and give you understanding of the Word. You need to search the scriptures and make sure what your church teaches is truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=2&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Is your church new or has it been around for quite some time?