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BHS
Oct 19th 2008, 07:21 PM
In another thread there are some posts that reflect the thought that repentance is not required before salvation. For some reason that is not possible? And that it is considered a "work"? Probably about a year ago I came across a post that said repentance is not necessary after salvation. So which is it?

Please provide scripture to back up your thoughts.

Thanks and blessings,
BHS

livingword26
Oct 19th 2008, 07:42 PM
Again, I think that in order for this discussion to make any sense, you need to be very clear on what repentance means.

RoadWarrior
Oct 19th 2008, 08:18 PM
Repentance
— There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance.

(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Mt 27:3).

(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge. This verb, with

(3) the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

Evangelical repentance consists of
(1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness;
(2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ;
(3) an actual hatred of sin (Ps 119:128; Job 42:5,6; 2 Co 7:10) and turning from it to God; and
(4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments.

The true penitent is conscious
of guilt (Ps 51:4,9),
of pollution (51:5,7,10), and
of helplessness (51:11; 109:21,22).

Thus he apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance (Ps 51:1; 130:4).

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

livingword26
Oct 19th 2008, 08:40 PM
The true penitent is conscious
of guilt (Ps 51:4,9),
of pollution (51:5,7,10), and
of helplessness (51:11; 109:21,22).

Thus he apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance (Ps 51:1; 130:4).


I like what you have posted here. No one can be this conscious of sin, and its implications, without the help of the Holy Spirit, and no one can overcome sin, without the Help of the Holy Spirit. If we are to believe that Paul was saved when he wrote Romans, then we know that the struggle with sin does not happen all at once, nor does it happen before salvation.

Rom 7:14-25
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
(15) For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.
(16) If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good.
(17) But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
(18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.
(19) For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.
(20) But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.
(21) I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.
(22) For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
(23) but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
(24) O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.



Many of those who first come to Christ, have not yet even begun to understand what sin is, or how it affects their souls and lives. Paul gave very simple instructions to the new gentile converts:

Act 15:28-29
(28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

After this, as they grew and were convicted of particular sins, they (we) would repent, but this does not happen all at once, nor does it happen before we are saved. Repentance is changing the way you see things, and this is done by God


Joh 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

petepet
Oct 19th 2008, 10:03 PM
Repentance
— There are three Greek words used in the New Testament to denote repentance.

(1.) The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Mt 27:3).

(2.) Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge. This verb, with

(3) the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

Evangelical repentance consists of
(1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness;
(2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ;
(3) an actual hatred of sin (Ps 119:128; Job 42:5,6; 2 Co 7:10) and turning from it to God; and
(4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments.

The true penitent is conscious
of guilt (Ps 51:4,9),
of pollution (51:5,7,10), and
of helplessness (51:11; 109:21,22).

Thus he apprehends himself to be just what God has always seen him to be and declares him to be. But repentance comprehends not only such a sense of sin, but also an apprehension of mercy, without which there can be no true repentance (Ps 51:1; 130:4).

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

If I may I would just add to the above that repentance is not something that we 'do'. It is what God works within us causing us to respond to Christ. It is the gift of God (Acts 5.31).

Of course in another sense repentance is continually with us, for we constantly have to 'change our mind' about the way we live and the things we do. Thus we should experienc daily repentance. This is, however, different from the initial repentance which produces a totally life-changing experience.

RoadWarrior
Oct 19th 2008, 10:16 PM
Repentance is a major subject to God. Here is an interesting quote:

1 Ki 8:46-51
46 "When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin), and You become angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, and they take them captive to the land of the enemy, far or near;
47 yet when they come to themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of those who took them captive, saying, 'We have sinned and done wrong, we have committed wickedness';
48 and when they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land which You gave to their fathers, the city which You have chosen and the temple which I have built for Your name:

49 then hear in heaven Your dwelling place their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause, 50 and forgive Your people who have sinned against You, and all their transgressions which they have transgressed against You; and grant them compassion before those who took them captive, that they may have compassion on them
NKJV

9Marksfan
Oct 19th 2008, 10:22 PM
I believe that repentance occurs before, during and after "salvation" - maybe we should define what we mean by "salvation"...

Thanks for the definition, RW - very helpful! :)

RoadWarrior
Oct 19th 2008, 10:25 PM
Psalms provides us with a prayer of repentance.

Psalm 51
A Prayer of Repentance

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.


1 Have mercy upon me, O God,According to Your lovingkindness;According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,Blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,And my sin is always before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,And done this evil in Your sight — That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me hear joy and gladness,That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,And blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,And sinners shall be converted to You.
14 Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,The God of my salvation,And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,A broken and a contrite heart — These, O God, You will not despise.

NKJV

Chimon
Oct 19th 2008, 10:45 PM
I think we would all agree that salvation occurs when an individuals recognizes their have sinned against God and puts their trust (faith) in Christ to save them from their sin through his death on the cross.

I think if one trusts Christ to save them from sin, they will trust him enough to follow his commandments and teachings. If we follow his commandments and teachings, we will repent of our old ways and resolve to live as Christ did.

I do not think that repentance can be required before salvation, because we are slaves to sin before we are saved. We can't possibly repent without Christ's redeeming power in our lives.

I would not say that repentance is necessary to be saved, but rather that true salvation will always produce repentence. If someone has not repented, they have reason to question the authenticity of their faith. Repentance does not produce salvation, faith (trust) in Christ does. To suggest the repentance produces salvation is to advocate a works based salvation.


I hope that makes sense :-)

P.S. I am using RoadWarrior's definition of true repentance, which was very good by the way!

RoadWarrior
Oct 19th 2008, 10:49 PM
If you have your back turned to someone, then you turn around in order to see their face.

If you are walking south, then you turn around in order to walk north.

If you are walking away from God, then you turn around in order to walk towards Him.

Repentance is turning around.

Why make it so complicated that we need a 10-page manual on how to do it? Just turn around and seek God.

9Marksfan
Oct 19th 2008, 10:51 PM
If you have your back turned to someone, then you turn around in order to see their face.

If you are walking south, then you turn around in order to walk north.

If you are walking away from God, then you turn around in order to walk towards Him.

Repentance is turning around.

Why make it so complicated that we need a 10-page manual on how to do it? Just turn around and seek God.

Amen! Well put, sis!

RoadWarrior
Oct 19th 2008, 10:54 PM
...P.S. I am using RoadWarrior's definition of true repentance, which was very good by the way!

Thanks, Chimon, but I can't really take credit for it except that I found it in Easton's Dictionary, copied and pasted it here.

But I'm very glad that you liked it! :hug:

Dani H
Oct 19th 2008, 10:55 PM
Upon salvation, our spirits are regenerated and made alive unto God.

That leaves the issue of the soul.

Repentance remains the first and foremost tool which God will use to accomplish the salvation of our souls, as He un-teaches and re-teaches us, and changes our thought processes to come in line with His own and realign our will to be in accordance with His own, and to change our fallen emotional state into something that reflects His nature.

The very last thing that is going to be saved is our body, as it is sown in corruption and raised incorruptable.

On a side note, I have been repenting non-stop for the past 12 years since I fully surrendered and allowed the Holy Spirit to crucify my Self and begin the true work of the cross within me. And I continue to be amazed at how powerful repentance really is. To me, it's the true antidote to everything the fall has caused for us as human beings, and I remain grateful to Jesus every day for everything He has done to make it all possible. :)

livingword26
Oct 19th 2008, 11:06 PM
I believe that repentance occurs before, during and after "salvation"

That, I agree with.

RoadWarrior
Oct 19th 2008, 11:12 PM
It is consistent with the example of Israel, that we should continually turn from sin in repentance, and seek the Lord.

Eze 14:6-7
'Thus says the Lord God: "Repent, turn away from your idols, and turn your faces away from all your abominations.
NKJV

Eze 18:30-32
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"
NKJV

Joel 2:12-14
12 "Now, therefore," says the Lord,
"Turn to Me with all your heart,
With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning."
13 So rend your heart, and not your garments;
Return to the Lord your God,
For He is gracious and merciful,
Slow to anger, and of great kindness;
And He relents from doing harm.
14 Who knows if He will turn and relent,
And leave a blessing behind Him
NKJV

Am 5:4-6
4 For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel:
"Seek Me and live;
5 But do not seek Bethel,
Nor enter Gilgal,
Nor pass over to Beersheba;
For Gilgal shall surely go into captivity,
And Bethel shall come to nothing.
6 Seek the Lord and live,
Lest He break out like fire in the house of Joseph,
And devour it,
With no one to quench it in Bethel
NKJV

Zep 2:1-3
2 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,
2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.
NKJV

Zec 1:3-4
Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Return to Me," says the Lord of hosts, "and I will return to you," says the Lord of hosts.
NKJV

I especially love this one from Zechariah. :hug:

jeffweeder
Oct 19th 2008, 11:29 PM
Without repentance you perish--luke 13.

Without repentance, you do not recieve the Holy Spirit.

By repenting you allow God to fill you, and if Christ be in you, you belong to him.
If Christ not be in you, you are none of his....so repent and get saved.

livingword26
Oct 20th 2008, 12:26 AM
Without repentance, you do not recieve the Holy Spirit.


There is no requirement list for salvation except believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:1-3
(1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

*Hope*
Oct 20th 2008, 01:39 AM
Repentance is not something we can do on our own. Before we are saved, this is the state we are in:

* We do not understand God (Romans 3:11)
* We do not seek God (Romans 3:11)
* We have a mind that is hostile towards God (Romans 8:7)
* We cannot submit to God (Romans 8:7)
* We are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1)
* We have a heart of stone towards God (Ezekiel 36:26)
* We love darkness, we hate the light (John 3:10)
* We desire to do the will of satan (John 8:44)
* We follow satan (Ephesians 2:2)
* We are enslaved by sin (John 8:34)
* We are unable to please God (Romans 8:8)
* We don't understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Due to our spiritual state prior to salvation, we are incapable of doing anything to please God (even repent), because we are DEAD in sin (see verses above). Therefore, repentance is something that takes place AFTER God has made us alive in Christ.

Salvation is a work of God's grace, through the work of the Holy Spirit - who gives us the gift of faith in Christ Jesus. There is absolutely no "work" on our part. Doing the works of God are evidence of salvation, not requirements to receive it.

jeffweeder
Oct 20th 2008, 01:51 AM
There is no requirement list for salvation except believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Its true that no-one can come to Christ unless God draws him, but if you dont respond he is not pleased. We respond by repentance, once we know that Jesus is the Christ.
This is the first thing we must do, before we recieve the promise.

ACTS 2

Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" [Or what are we to do ]
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

ROM 2
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

RoadWarrior
Oct 20th 2008, 02:03 AM
Repentance is not something we can do on our own. Before we are saved, this is the state we are in:

* We do not understand God (Romans 3:11)
* We do not seek God (Romans 3:11)
* We have a mind that is hostile towards God (Romans 8:7)
* We cannot submit to God (Romans 8:7)
* We are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1)
* We have a heart of stone towards God (Ezekiel 36:26)
* We love darkness, we hate the light (John 3:10)
* We desire to do the will of satan (John 8:44)
* We follow satan (Ephesians 2:2)
* We are enslaved by sin (John 8:34)
* We are unable to please God (Romans 8:8)
* We don't understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Due to our spiritual state prior to salvation, we are incapable of doing anything to please God (even repent), because we are DEAD in sin (see verses above). Therefore, repentance is something that takes place AFTER God has made us alive in Christ.

Salvation is a work of God's grace, through the work of the Holy Spirit - who gives us the gift of faith in Christ Jesus. There is absolutely no "work" on our part. Doing the works of God are evidence of salvation, not requirements to receive it.


Hope, I am very much interested in hearing how you came to be saved. Would you be willing to share that with us?

livingword26
Oct 20th 2008, 02:17 AM
Livingword26 said:
There is no requirement list for salvation except believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.


Its true that no-one can come to Christ unless God draws him, but if you dont respond he is not pleased. We respond by repentance, once we know that Jesus is the Christ.
This is the first thing we must do, before we recieve the promise.

ACTS 2

Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" [Or what are we to do ]
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit


Livingword26 said:
What were they supposed to be repenting of? All of their sins? No, they rejected, and crucified the Messiah. Accepting (believing on) Him would result in receiving the (GIFT of) the Holy Ghost. That is what the verse above says. And that is backed up by Galatians 3::1-3




ROM 2
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Livingword26 said:
Indeed, it is God that leads us to repentance.

BHS
Oct 21st 2008, 12:26 PM
With this question of when repentance is to occur, I think what it means to have faith is as important as what it means to repent. Road Warrior has defined repentance in much the same way that I would. The Hebrew word “shub”, meaning to turn back or return is used in the scripture to mean repent. Repentance is making an about face, turning in the opposite direction from doing evil to doing good, from disobedience to obedience. Road Warrior has done an excellent job of bringing out scriptures to indicate this already.

NAU 2 Chronicles 30:9 "For if you return to the LORD, your brothers and your sons will find compassion before those who led them captive and will return to this land. For the LORD your God is gracious and compassionate, and will not turn His face away from you if you return to Him."

Throughout the Scriptures, God calls upon people to repent, turn to Him and he will save or deliver them. It was repentance that Noah preached for 120 years. But, because they did not respond in repentance, God destroyed the earth with flood. It was a message of repentance that Jonah was to take to Nineveh. Their response of repentance, indicated by fasting and clothing themselves in sackcloth, was why God spared their city. They were “saved” from destruction. This is the Biblical pattern, even found in the covenant with the Israelites – “If you will be my People, I will be your God”. They indicated their decision to be God’s people by saying, “We will hear and we will do.” The primary message of the prophets to Israel was repentance. After 400 years of silence, John the Baptist appeared preaching the same message of repentance – “Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”

To say that we cannot repent or submit to God before salvation, IMO is clearly not what the Scriptures teach, so, to tie repentance as a requirement for salvation does not violate the Scripture. Belief in God requires a response and that response is repentance. It is not just if you believe in me (even the demons believe), but if you will be my people.

I agree that man cannot earn his salvation by works. However, True faith is not void of works. James explains it quite well when he says, “faith without works is dead”. It is not “works” that we are to avoid. What we are absolutely not to do, is to rely upon our works as the justification for our salvation. Repentance is not the justification for salvation, but the right response to God's gracious offer to be our God.

Blessings,
BHS

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 12:56 PM
In another thread there are some posts that reflect the thought that repentance is not required before salvation. For some reason that is not possible? And that it is considered a "work"? Probably about a year ago I came across a post that said repentance is not necessary after salvation. So which is it?

Please provide scripture to back up your thoughts.

Thanks and blessings,
BHS

I believe we need to understand about confession and how it applies to repentance.

Prov 28:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

We need to confess so that our sins are forgiven, as well as turning back to God.

Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Firstfruits

BHS
Oct 21st 2008, 02:07 PM
I believe we need to understand about confession and how it applies to repentance.

Prov 28:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=20&CHAP=28&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

We need to confess so that our sins are forgiven, as well as turning back to God.

Rom 12:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=12&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Firstfruits

True, confession even before repentance.

Blessings,
BHS

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 02:30 PM
Matthew 3:5-12
"5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”


So According to John the Baptist, Repentance is more than just confession as all the region had come and were baptized in confession of their sins by John the Baptist, but it must be a repentance which baers fruit.

Colossians 2:11-14
"11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. "

What is repentance? repentance is putting off the old man and sin and putting on Christ. Therefore I'd argue that true repentance as far as it is concerned with salvation happens just prior to salvation, and after, but most importantly at the very moment of salvation, because to have true repentance you must have a change of mind, you must change from the pursuit of the world, and instead pursue Christ in stead.

Ephesians 4:17-23
"17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."


Before we were saved what was the state of our lives? According to Ephesians, we walked in the futility of the mind, our undrestanding was darkened, and we were alienated from the life of God, and were ignorant and blind. We were given over to uncleanness and other sins as well, thus we should put off our former conduct which grows according to deceitful lusts, and be renewed in our spirt and mind. Thus we as believers must put off those things that are corrupt and put on the Things of God. That's what repentance is, and it initially happens at the moment of salvation. It also may be necessary after salvation for believers who at times will likely struggle with sin, but concering salvation it is probably right at that very moment. We put off sin, and take on the righteousness of God. As someone else already said, we turn our back on the wicked way, and turn to walk the straight and narrow path. And we do this at the moment God Calls us. When God calls us at that moment are minds are opened and we are then able to repent, and put our faith in Christ. We turn from Sin, through Repentance to faith.

Firstfruits hit it with a large nail. We must forsake (put off, repent) of our sins and turn back to God.

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 02:41 PM
Salvific Repentance - Changing our mind about who Christ is and what He has done for us.

Christian Repentance- Turning away from our sins.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 03:07 PM
True, confession even before repentance.

Blessings,
BHS

Thank you,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Oct 21st 2008, 04:15 PM
Great discussion guys!

It is clear that salvation is not just a switch being flipped, or a formula to follow, but is a relational transaction with many aspects.

There is no "one size fits all" because God's relationship with each one of us is personal, and shaped to fit what we need. All of the things you have mentioned are important parts of belonging to another.

It is no accident that love and marriage are the symbolic representation of the relationship we have with God. Just as it is complex to court and marry the person of your dreams, it is complex to seek the Lord and be found by Him.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 21st 2008, 06:19 PM
As I was taught,

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Rom 6.22."

So not just in the justification process is repentance needed but also in the fruit unto holiness.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19."


Be good

My heart's Desire
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:41 AM
Repentance to me is to change your mind from thinking you don't need a Savior to you do need a Savior. Repentance is then to change your mind from thinking Jesus Christ as the Son of God, died for the sins of the world to knowing that Jesus Christ, the Son of God died for you and your sins and that He will save you if you ask Him. I think it even goes beyond in that afterwards you change your mind from knowing you were lost to knowing that He did save you.

My heart's Desire
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:45 AM
True, confession even before repentance.

Blessings,
BHS

The only way someone will confess their Sin is when they know they Sin. Someone who doesn't know they are a sinner with Sin will not confess it.

If I remember correctly, when Christ saved me there was no way I could have confessed every single Sin that I had transgressed with My whole life. I don't think there are many alive with that kind of memory.

My heart's Desire
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:55 AM
The more I think about it, I think knowledge is before repentance to be saved more than anything. Simply until one knows they are lost, they can't do anything. You could change your mind and give up sinning all you want but before you know you are lost and without God, you really can't do anything to be saved. So I think repentance is changing your mind from being without God to knowing that you need Him. Did I just go in a circle or what? LOL

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:45 AM
The only way someone will confess their Sin is when they know they Sin. Someone who doesn't know they are a sinner with Sin will not confess it.

If I remember correctly, when Christ saved me there was no way I could have confessed every single Sin that I had transgressed with My whole life. I don't think there are many alive with that kind of memory.

Before you became a Christian did you know you were a sinner?

Did someone not teach/preach the word of God to you for you to know what to do?

Is that not so with all men?

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 11:25 AM
The only way someone will confess their Sin is when they know they Sin. Someone who doesn't know they are a sinner with Sin will not confess it.

If I remember correctly, when Christ saved me there was no way I could have confessed every single Sin that I had transgressed with My whole life. I don't think there are many alive with that kind of memory.


This is basically how it was with me, and believe me I had heard the Gospel for at least 8 years of my life at that point. I was a child then, so while I read and memorized scriptures, I knew Sin was wrong, because I took the bible to be right as an authority. However, I did not have faith. I tried to be 'perfect' and the more I tried I failed. It wasn't until I went to a Snow Camp and got into a spiritual setting with a counselor that the Lord used his word and then opened my eyes and heart to the truth that salvation isn't attainable by perfection, because none of us can be perfect absent God. Now in my case I new deep down I was a sinner for a long time, but I was trying my hardest to out weigh my sin by being "good". That winter night I gave my heart to the Lord and let him settle the account, because I had to acknowledge that I could not do it for myself, I needed Jesus and he was calling me to turn to him.

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:22 PM
This is basically how it was with me, and believe me I had heard the Gospel for at least 8 years of my life at that point. I was a child then, so while I read and memorized scriptures, I knew Sin was wrong, because I took the bible to be right as an authority. However, I did not have faith. I tried to be 'perfect' and the more I tried I failed. It wasn't until I went to a Snow Camp and got into a spiritual setting with a counselor that the Lord used his word and then opened my eyes and heart to the truth that salvation isn't attainable by perfection, because none of us can be perfect absent God. Now in my case I new deep down I was a sinner for a long time, but I was trying my hardest to out weigh my sin by being "good". That winter night I gave my heart to the Lord and let him settle the account, because I had to acknowledge that I could not do it for myself, I needed Jesus and he was calling me to turn to him.

That winter night I gave my heart to the Lord and let him settle the account,

So you gave your heart to the Lord, and then you let him settle the account. you made a decision to follow God. You chose to allow God to lead.

Would God have settled the account if you had not first given your heart?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:53 PM
That winter night I gave my heart to the Lord and let him settle the account,

So you gave your heart to the Lord, and then you let him settle the account. you made a decision to follow God. You chose to allow God to lead.

Would God have settled the account if you had not first given your heart?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

My answer likely to not satisfy your question, but I do not believe that I was saved, until i first put my faith in Christ, period. I had perhaps said prayers before, tried to do what the bible says, and was not a believer before. It wasn't till I took that step of Faith that I was saved.

Btw, the moment I accepted, I felt the change. It was like an enormous weight lifted from me, (I might even have had some tears of Joy at that moment, though my memory of the event has faded a bit.) and a joy unspeakable stayed with me for a long time. I have no doubt that I was saved through Faith in Jesus. To be honest though, I think its a little of both. A little Free Will, and a Little Divine intervention at the same instant.

RoadWarrior
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:48 PM
My answer likely to not satisfy your question, but I do not believe that I was saved, until i first put my faith in Christ, period. I had perhaps said prayers before, tried to do what the bible says, and was not a believer before. It wasn't till I took that step of Faith that I was saved.

Btw, the moment I accepted, I felt the change. It was like an enormous weight lifted from me, (I might even have had some tears of Joy at that moment, though my memory of the event has faded a bit.) and a joy unspeakable stayed with me for a long time. I have no doubt that I was saved through Faith in Jesus. To be honest though, I think its a little of both. A little Free Will, and a Little Divine intervention at the same instant.

Hi Veretax,

I agree that it is a little of both. I love this scripture, when David was speaking to his son, Solomon:

1 Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever. NKJV

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:22 PM
My answer likely to not satisfy your question, but I do not believe that I was saved, until i first put my faith in Christ, period. I had perhaps said prayers before, tried to do what the bible says, and was not a believer before. It wasn't till I took that step of Faith that I was saved.

Btw, the moment I accepted, I felt the change. It was like an enormous weight lifted from me, (I might even have had some tears of Joy at that moment, though my memory of the event has faded a bit.) and a joy unspeakable stayed with me for a long time. I have no doubt that I was saved through Faith in Jesus. To be honest though, I think its a little of both. A little Free Will, and a Little Divine intervention at the same instant.

You have used three important words that does satisfy my question.

1. You put your faith in Christ.

2. You took the step of faith.

3. You accepted.

Thank you,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:26 PM
Hi Veretax,

I agree that it is a little of both. I love this scripture, when David was speaking to his son, Solomon:

1 Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever. NKJV

This truly shows that there is an option to seek Him or forsake Him and the consequences of both.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Chimon
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:40 AM
If you have your back turned to someone, then you turn around in order to see their face.

If you are walking south, then you turn around in order to walk north.

If you are walking away from God, then you turn around in order to walk towards Him.

Repentance is turning around.

Why make it so complicated that we need a 10-page manual on how to do it? Just turn around and seek God.


I can't tell if you're accusing me of making it complicated or if you're making a general statement, but I guess you're expressing a general sentiment.

But in answer to your question, I think it is VERY important that we understand that it is not repentance from sin that saves someone. If that were so, every Muslim who repented of sin would be saved, but as it is, trust in Christ produces salvation, and having trusted in Christ, repentance will be the next natural step.

From my point of view, confusing repentance with salvation can be very dangerous because it can lead to legalism.

I don't feel like that is complex. But it is precise, and I think it is important to be precise in our theology and Biblical interpretation. I hope that makes sense...

livingword26
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:50 AM
I think it is VERY important that we understand that it is not repentance from sin that saves someone. If that were so, every Muslim who repented of sin would be saved, but as it is, trust in Christ produces salvation, and having trusted in Christ, repentance will be the next natural step.

From my point of view, confusing repentance with salvation can be very dangerous because it can lead to legalism.




That is the dead on truth.

RoadWarrior
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:00 AM
I can't tell if you're accusing me of making it complicated or if you're making a general statement, but I guess you're expressing a general sentiment.

...

Just a general sentiment, I suppose. I was most certainly not accusing you of anything. Sorry if it seemed that way. I was simply giving another version or definition of repentance. Not trying to put it before anything or after anything, just a simple statement of what it means to repent.

I am a rather simple person at heart, I want things to be easy to grasp and useful for making my walk in Christ deeper and more meaningful. For that reason, I love knowing that if I realize I am going the wrong way, I can turn around and go the right way.

Actually, I've had to do that more than a few times in my life. Not in order to get saved, but just to get back on the right track. It is so easy to go off the path. :blush:

9Marksfan
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:34 AM
Let's look at some of the key verses in the NT on repentance to see where it fits in as far as salvation is concerned:-

Jesus made it clear that it is an INDISPENSIBLE necessity for salvation (like many of his other "unless" teachings, eg "unless a man is born again", "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees", "unless you convert and become as little children", "unless you forgive your brother from the heart", "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood", "unless I wash you"). I am not saying that it is the means by which we EARN salvation, but rather the indispensible forerunner - if it is not present, we are deluding ourselves if we think we (or others) are saved:-

I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Lk 13:3, 5 NKJV

So where does it comes in the ordo salutis? Does it precede faith or does faith precede it?

...testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:21 NKJV

So it seems we repent (change our minds about God, admitting we were wrong and He is right ie we are sinners unable to save ourselves and need Christ to save us) FIRST and turn towards Him and believe in Christ as the One He has set forth to be our Saviour. How can we meaningfully believe in Christ if we have not had a change of mind/heart towards God first, realising that we HAVE to believe in the Christ we have refused to believe in up until that point? Here's Jesus' own teaching, in the same order:-

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mk 1:15 NKJV

Here's another point - surely we can't believe the truth of the gospel until we accept that we have believed a lie and need to accept humbly that we were wrong, then believe the truth? This next passage possibly teaches this in the context of believers who have fallen into false teaching - but I think the principle is a general one for the unconverted and the backslider alike:-

in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth 2 Tim 2:25 NKJV

Another point - how key was repentance to Jesus teaching as far as our becoming His followers was concerned (as opposed to living the Christian life)?

I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance. Lk 5:32 NKJV

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk 24:47 NJKV

Note again from the above verse that repentance PRECEDES remission of sins. Peter echoes this order here:-

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 NKJV

And here....

Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 NKJV

We've seen that repentance was key to Jesus' preaching to the unconverted - and it was for Peter in his first sermon - did he continue with this emphasis?

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord Acts 3:19 NKJV

Maybe his understanding changed later on in his ministry?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9 NKJV

What about Paul?

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent Acts 17:30 NKJV

Just for the pagan Gentiles perhaps?

but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and</I> then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:20 NKJV

I would venture that the first "work" befitting repentance that Paul would have had in mind (after turning to God) would have been to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) - then live for Him the rest of your days, with all that that entails (2 Cor 5:15).

Finally, do we find John agreeing with the Lord Jesus and His fellow apostles?

And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory. Rev 16:9 NKJV

How do we give God glory? By obeying the gospel - believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, the One He has set forth to be our Saviour - and live for Him and not ourselves - that is lifelong repentance and it is MANDATORY for every single Christian.

One final point - repentance is not something we DO on our own to which God responds - it is produced by the gracious, convicting work of the Holy Spirit:-

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:24 NKJV

And in case we might think that these young believers were misguided in their theology:-

in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth 2 Tim 2:25 NKJV

It seems clear to me that repentance is a crucial aspect to our becoming Christians and initially takes place BEFORE we believe - the NT placesd a very high priority on it, but faith is given a higher priority, hence the passages that say "believe!" or "he who believes" without mentioning repentance specifically. But if we are set in our sinful ways, the only way we are going to believe and not repent is if we selfishly want an eternal life insurance policy - but really want to get on with living life the way we please - how many MILLIONS of professing Christians have believed that lie (that we just need to believe and repentance can come later....if at all) and are deluding themselved they are saved?

I finish with John's words to describe the godless, even in the hour of God's judgement upin them:-

...they did not repent and give Him glory

The corollary is clear - Christians are those who repent and give God glory. Paul confirms this:-

Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Rom 2:4-11 NKJV

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:53 AM
I think we are arguing semantics here. repentance is a flip of a coin, a change of heart, or a change of mind. Repenting is to put off the thing which separates us from God, that being Sin. So we put it off and ask for his forgiveness, but simply confessing is not enough, if we do not put our faith in Christ after that, then we will fall back into the same sinful rut that we had before. Not necessarily with the same sins either.


In my case, what prevented me from being saved earlier in my life (I was 11 when I finally trusted Jesus), was due to a particular sin, that I had believed the Lord could not forgive of me. Because I did not believe he could forgive all sins, I did not actually have trust in Christ. It wasn't until someone showed me important passages in scripture, that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive them, did that scripture open my eyes that I was then able to ask for that forgiveness I had secretly longed for, and put my faith in Christ.

So in my opinion repentance can not be lasting without replacing the sin with Christ. If a person fails to do that, then there is unlikely their momentary change of mind will last.



So where does it comes in the ordo salutis? Does it precede faith or does faith precede it?

As I just said, I believe that on one side of the coin is self and sin, and repentance is when we turn the coin and turn it to faith and Christ. I think it is part of the process of faith not necessarily and therefore its questionable whether there would be any lasting effect if any is done in absence. As I often illustrate, we can have faith that the chair we are sitting in will hold us up, but it only takes one time for that faith to show it has been misplaced as it breaks beneath us. So I say repentance is part of the process, I'd say it happens so close to faith that its hard to distinguish them as separate acts as one bleeds into the other. But I would say that repenting of Sin, has to come before faith.

Its not that we wont' fall into temptation and sin after we have faith, it can still happen, but what really happens at salvation is we are no longer a bondservant to that sin. Repentance is turning from that sin to something else, if we don't turn to Faith, then anything else will not redeem us from sin.

Which brings us to another point. Doesn't the bible say that God does not hear the prayer of the unjust or sinner? If that is so, then can there even be repentance without faith in Christ. Does God forgive the sin of those who have failed to put their faith and trust in him?

In John, a blind man was healed by Jesus, and the sanhedrein I believe it was, was questioning him about who had healed him. Near the end of it the blind man said the following:

John 9:31
"31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will."

Which we know from Isaiah 59:1-2

"1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear."


James reminds us to confess our sins to believers so that we may be healed, that the prayer of the righteous is not only heard, but potent.



James 5:16
"16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."


Paul in Romans, refers to the Old testament in that there is none righteous neither jew nor greek.


Romans 3:10-12

"10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."


In Psalms we learn again that the Lord hears the righteous, but also the broken hearted and those with a crush spirit he saves.
Psalms 34:17-18
"17 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them;
he delivers them from all their troubles.18 The LORD is close to the brokenhearted
and saves those who are crushed in spirit."


We also learn in Psalms that God will not despise those with a broken spirit and contrite heart.

Psalm 51:17
"17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise."

John reminds us in his first epistle, that if we claim to have fellowship but walk in darkness we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins.


1 John 1:5-9

"5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[1] (javascript://) sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives."

So by this I believe that repentance from sin, is necessary to have fellowship with God, and we cannot have Fellowship with God if we walk in Darkness, Therefore, we must repent and have faith to fellowship with God. So revisiting what I said, we must put off sin, and take on Christ, otherwise we are still separated from God.

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Chimon http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1836927#post1836927)
I think it is VERY important that we understand that it is not repentance from sin that saves someone. If that were so, every Muslim who repented of sin would be saved, but as it is, trust in Christ produces salvation, and having trusted in Christ, repentance will be the next natural step.

From my point of view, confusing repentance with salvation can be very dangerous because it can lead to legalism.


Can you explain the following scripture?

2 Cor 7:10 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:04 PM
There is no requirement list for salvation except believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:1-3
(1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?I disagree. One must repent and believe in order to be saved.

2 Cor 7
9Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

What does it mean to believe in Christ? Just to believe in Him in our heads? NO! To believe in Christ is to put your faith and trust in Him alone for salvation and eternal life. You have to believe in your heart and not just your head. To truly believe in Christ you must deny yourself and believe in Him as Lord and Savior.

Matthew 16
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Luke 14:27
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

*Hope*
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:13 PM
Repentance is not something we can do on our own. Before we are saved, this is the state we are in:

* We do not understand God (Romans 3:11)
* We do not seek God (Romans 3:11)
* We have a mind that is hostile towards God (Romans 8:7)
* We cannot submit to God (Romans 8:7)
* We are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1)
* We have a heart of stone towards God (Ezekiel 36:26)
* We love darkness, we hate the light (John 3:10)
* We desire to do the will of satan (John 8:44)
* We follow satan (Ephesians 2:2)
* We are enslaved by sin (John 8:34)
* We are unable to please God (Romans 8:8)
* We don't understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Due to our spiritual state prior to salvation, we are incapable of doing anything to please God (even repent), because we are DEAD in sin (see verses above). Therefore, repentance is something that takes place AFTER God has made us alive in Christ.

Salvation is a work of God's grace, through the work of the Holy Spirit - who gives us the gift of faith in Christ Jesus. There is absolutely no "work" on our part. Doing the works of God are evidence of salvation, not requirements to receive it.

Again, like I said above...repentance is not something we can accomplish on our own. For those who disagree, how do you deal with the verses I listed in this post? Scripture teaches that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrews 11:6). If repentance comes before salvation, then it comes before faith. Anything we do that is not done in faith is sin (Romans 14:23).

I'm not arguing that repentance isn't necessary, it is the EVIDENCE of God's working in us. I'm arguing that Scripture teaches that apart from faith, and apart from God working in us, we can do NO good thing (John 15:5) - not even repent.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:58 PM
One final point - repentance is not something we DO on our own to which God responds - it is produced by the gracious, convicting work of the Holy Spirit:-

When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” Acts 11:24 NKJV

And in case we might think that these young believers were misguided in their theology:-

in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth 2 Tim 2:25 NKJVYou quoted Acts 11:18, not Acts 11:24. ;)

I disagree with what you're saying here. In 2 Cor 7:9-10 we can see that repentance leads to salvation. I believe Acts 11:18 is merely saying that God was also giving the Gentiles the opportunity to repent so that they could receive eternal life just as He had done for the Jews. If repentance was a gift that God gives to people then what is the reason for Jesus commanding people to repent and believe the gospel? And what is the reason for God commanding "all people everywhere" to repent? Why command all people everywhere to do something that most of them supposedly are not given the ability to do?

Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Why would Jesus need to call sinners to repentance if it was just going to be given to them? That would make no sense. Why didn't He say "I came not to give the righteous, but sinners repentance"? He called many, but only few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). Why? Because sinners must choose to repent. Those who choose not to repent and believe the gospel are not chosen for salvation.

Regarding 2 Timothy 2:25, it's the same thing.

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

What Paul is teaching there is the need to meekly instruct people regarding the truth in the hope that God will grant them the opportunity to repent and acknowledge the truth before it's too late. This concept is taught repeatedly in scripture.

Jeremiah 18
8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Ezekiel 18
30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Amos 5
4For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:
5But seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beersheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Bethel shall come to nought.
6Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.

Jonah 3
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?
10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

If God is the one who gives people the ability to repent, then none of the passages above would make any sense. Why all the urgency to repent if God is the one who gives it to people? Why would He tell people to repent before it's too late and He brings disaster upon them if He knew that He was going to give them repentance (or not) all along? There would be no urgency in that case. It would just be a case of waiting to see if one is lucky enough to win the repentance lottery by being given repentance. That's just not how it works.

Thankfully, God is longsuffering and not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God gives people plenty of time to do so, but they are still required to do so and God doesn't do it for them or only give a few the ability to do so.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:09 PM
Hi Veretax,

I agree that it is a little of both. I love this scripture, when David was speaking to his son, Solomon:

1 Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever. NKJVThat's a good one. He knocks at the door of our hearts, but we must open the door.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We must seek Him while He may be found and call on Him while He is near:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:21 PM
If you have your back turned to someone, then you turn around in order to see their face.

If you are walking south, then you turn around in order to walk north.

If you are walking away from God, then you turn around in order to walk towards Him.

Repentance is turning around.

Why make it so complicated that we need a 10-page manual on how to do it? Just turn around and seek God.

Thanks RW!

Repentance is just that.
A change of mind and/or direction.

It does not have to just mean repentance from specific sins.

The word says turn [repent] and believe. Many turn this 'repent' to mean confess, rebuke and renounce every specific sin, and then believe.

If that is what is always meant by 'repent', then we have to ask 'Did God sin', or did He contemplate to commit sin?

Exo 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou sworest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Psa 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

faithfulfriend
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:25 PM
In another thread there are some posts that reflect the thought that repentance is not required before salvation. For some reason that is not possible? And that it is considered a "work"? Probably about a year ago I came across a post that said repentance is not necessary after salvation. So which is it?

Please provide scripture to back up your thoughts.

Thanks and blessings,
BHS

Repent ye therefore, and be converted...

When Jesus began His ministry, He preached the doctrine of repentance.

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

John the Baptist required repentance of those who came to him to be baptized.

Luke 3:3, 8 - [3] And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; [8] Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

What is the definition of repent?

'To feel self-reproach, compunction, or contrition for past conduct: to turn, turn away, or turn towards: feel regret, or change one's mind, with regard to past action in consequence of dissatisfaction with it or its result.'

Isaiah also defines repentance:

Isaiah 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jesus commanded all men to repent.

Mark 1:15 - And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The apostles commanded sinners to repent.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 17:30 - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Repentance is required of everyone no matter how good or self-righteous they might be.

Luke 13:1-5 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Why?

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Repentance implies real godly sorrow.

Luke 18:10-14 - Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

a) True godly sorrow is not the sorrow of the world.
II Corinthians 7:8-11 - For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
Psalms 51:17 - The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

b) When the prodigal son returned home, he exemplified godly sorrow. (humility) Luke 15:21

[I]The Spirit of God must first convict man of his sins before man can repent.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 16:8 - And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Sins need not be confessed before men.

They must be confessed to God who alone has power to forgive sins.

I John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confession of wrongs and seeking forgiveness must be made to men who have been wronged.

Matthew 5:23-24 - Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

This produces a good conscience toward men as well as toward God.

Acts 24:16 - And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men.

Repentance requires that restitution be made.

Ezekiel 33:15 - the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Restitution was one of the first things that Zacchaeus thought of after he met Jesus Christ.
Luke 19:8 - And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

Repentance includes forgiving others.

All hatred, malice, grudges, ill-feelings toward others must be forsaken and those persons forgiven.

Matthew 6:14-15 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Jesus is our example.

Luke 23:34 - Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

[I]The act of repentance is two-fold.

It means not only the turning away from sin (Ezekiel 33:11,14) but also the turning to God for forgiveness (Proverbs 28:13).

Isaiah 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

As a man turns from sin and seeks God a great feeling of humility and unworthiness overwhelms him.

II Corinthians 7:11 - For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, [what] clearing of yourselves, yea, [what] indignation, yea, [what] fear, yea, [what] vehement desire, yea, [what] zeal, yea, [what] revenge! In all [things] ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Those that have truly repented -- been converted (justified, saved, pardoned, redeemed, born again, etc.) need no repentance.

Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:25 PM
The first [Jews] converts at Pentecost:
The model birth of the early Church. The birth has to be right, or it will effect the growth.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now I ask, did they [The Jews] first repent of their sin, or did they first believe that this Jesus whom they crucified, was indeed both Lord and Christ?

Knowing and believing this first, 'That Jesus was both Lord and Christ, their hearts were pierced. It was then that they asked "What must we do to be saved". Did Peter say 'confess and repent of your many sins'?
What was it that they had to Repent? Then they had to be baptized 'in the name of Jesus Christ' for the remission of sins.

Act 3:26 Unto you [Jews] first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Their turning away from iniquity, was a blessing from God.

The Roman keeper of the prison:

Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Did Paul say, that he had to 'first' repent of his many sins, and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

The Ethiopian eunuch:

Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Isaiah, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the Scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Did the eunuch first believe, or repent?
Did Philip tell the eunuch, that he must 'first' repent of his many sins, then believe, before he could be baptized?

The Greeks:

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Act 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.
Act 17:34 Howbeit certain men cleaved unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.


"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

What was the ignorance God winked at, but now commands all men every where to repent of?
[not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.]

Partaker of Christ
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:28 PM
That's a good one. He knocks at the door of our hearts, but we must open the door.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We must seek Him while He may be found and call on Him while He is near:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Were does it say "He knocks at the door of our hearts"?

9Marksfan
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:34 PM
faithfulfriend, your post was great - until this bit!


Those that have truly repented -- been converted (justified, saved, pardoned, redeemed, born again, etc.) need no repentance.

Luke 15:7 - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Surely Jesus is referring here to the majority of Jews who considered themselves "just" with no need to repent?


Matthew 9:13 - But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Again, he is referring to those who did not feel their need for the Great Physician and saw no need to repent. Repentance is NOT a one off thing that happens at conversion - it is a way of life for the believer and is key to sanctification and the renewing of our minds as we offr ourselves as living sacrifices. If we did not need to repent again and again after conversion, then we would have to have the mind of Christ in ALL things and be sinlessly perfect - the NT makes it abundantly clear that we have weaknesses as believers and that we have not yet attained to perfection.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 12:44 AM
faithfulfriend, your post was great - until this bit!



Surely Jesus is referring here to the majority of Jews who considered themselves "just" with no need to repent?



Again, he is referring to those who did not feel their need for the Great Physician and saw no need to repent. Repentance is NOT a one off thing that happens at conversion - it is a way of life for the believer and is key to sanctification and the renewing of our minds as we offr ourselves as living sacrifices. If we did not need to repent again and again after conversion, then we would have to have the mind of Christ in ALL things and be sinlessly perfect - the NT makes it abundantly clear that we have weaknesses as believers and that we have not yet attained to perfection.

I knew this would come up.....

There's biblical proof to show that after repentance, a Christian is to continue to walk with Christ without sin, but the thread here is repentance, not justification & sanctification. So we won't change the subject for the sake of staying on topic.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 01:05 AM
I knew this would come up.....

There's biblical proof to show that after repentance, a Christian is to continue to walk with Christ without sin, but the thread here is repentance, not justification & sanctification. So we won't change the subject for the sake of staying on topic.


The "sinless Christian" is very relevant to the topic of repentance before or after salvation. I have heard of these "sinless Christians", but I have never met one. If repentance of sin is required before salvation, then indeed we would be able to be sin free after, considering that is when the Holy Spirit comes to live in us. If repentance of sin is a life long process of learning and growing, led by the Holy Spirit, then it is doubtful that one will become sin free, any time soon, in these corrupted bodies.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 01:16 AM
The "sinless Christian" is very relevant to the topic of repentance before or after salvation. I have heard of these "sinless Christians", but I have never met one. If repentance of sin is required before salvation, then indeed we would be able to be sin free after, considering that is when the Holy Spirit comes to live in us. If repentance of sin is a life long process of learning and growing, led by the Holy Spirit, then it is doubtful that one will become sin free, any time soon, in these corrupted bodies.

A true experience of Sanctification takes care of the carnal heart, and you no longer have to give in to your "corrupted" body.

Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

There are two possible things you can yield yourself to, "unrighteousness to sin" or "righteousness unto God." you cannot have a mixture of both. Furthermore, those who do choose to yield unto God (and thus forsake unrighteousness unto sin) are those that are alive from the dead -- those who are saved and have eternal life. Even though we die physically, we can still be alive fromt he dead spiritually (only if we forsake all "unrighteousness unto sin").

Joh 8:51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Physical deal is unavoidable, but spiritual death IS avoidable. Sin produces spiritual death.

BroRog
Oct 24th 2008, 01:20 AM
There are two possible things you can yield yourself to, "unrighteousness to sin" or "righteousness unto God." you cannot have a mixture of both.

Why not? Why not both?

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 01:27 AM
Why not? Why not both?

Because the scripture clearly shows a difference in the two. Question for you, if it's okay to sin and go to Heaven, why bother to go to church? Why bother to read the Bible?

Most religious people try to have both, but God's Word shows a definite difference in the two.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Note the "therefore." This command is gleaned from the preceding scripture. Recall in verses 9-11 that as Christ died unto sin, so should we. Verse 12 confirms that being dead to sin is to live without sin. Because we are dead to sin, we are no longer under the law of sin and death, and we will no longer OBEY this law that we may succumb to sin.

Keep your eye out for a thread I'm going to start soon called "Holiness". I'm going to post a study of what true Bible Holiness and it should answer yours and many other people's questions.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 01:31 AM
A true experience of Sanctification takes care of the carnal heart, and you no longer have to give in to your "corrupted" body.



The I believe it is safe to assume that you are a believer in instant, and total sanctification. It would also be safe to assume, that since you preach it, that you have become sinless.




Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Indeed that is what we are supposed to do. But if you read the next chaper in Romans, you will see that Paul had more than a little struggle with that himself




There are two possible things you can yield yourself to, "unrighteousness to sin" or "righteousness unto God." you cannot have a mixture of both. Furthermore, those who do choose to yield unto God (and thus forsake unrighteousness unto sin) are those that are alive from the dead -- those who are saved and have eternal life. Even though we die physically, we can still be alive fromt he dead spiritually (only if we forsake all "unrighteousness unto sin").

You do not obtain righteousness through sinlessness. Your righteousness, (or mine at least) is as filthy rags. Christs righteousness is what brings eternal life to those that are saved.




Joh 8:51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Physical deal is unavoidable, but spiritual death IS avoidable. Sin produces spiritual death.All are spiritually dead before salvation. After one receives the Holy Spirit, he becomes Spiritually alive, and begins the path through sanctification.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 02:16 AM
The I believe it is safe to assume that you are a believer in instant, and total sanctification. It would also be safe to assume, that since you preach it, that you have become sinless.


Indeed that is what we are supposed to do. But if you read the next chaper in Romans, you will see that Paul had more than a little struggle with that himself

If you read chapter 6 of Romans, you will see the apostle Paul also said:
“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Rom. 6:1, 2.
“For sin shall not have dominion over you . . .” Rom. 6:14.
“But now being made free from sin …” Rom. 6:22.
In these scriptures and many others, Paul clearly speaks of the Christian living triumphantly over sin.
He went on in Romans 7 to “speak to them that know the [Old Testament] law,” and, speaking in the present tense, described his unregenerate condition, wherein he did not have the power to overcome sin, before his conversion. Without salvation, no man is free from the law of sin and death.
Verse 23 describes Paul’s struggle with sin before he was saved. “I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Therefore he cried, in verse 24, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” He joyfully answers this question in Rom. 8:2–“The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.”
He was now free from the condemnation of sin because, through salvation, he was empowered to live free from committing sin. Hence, he could also go on to teach others to “awake to righteousness and sin not” (I Cor. 15:34).
In Rom. 7:19 he had said, “For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.” For sinning religionists to insist that Paul still lived like this after being saved, they would have to negate all that Paul testified to and taught in Romans chapters 6 and 8, and all of his other writings, as well as all the New Testament writers. The apostle John said, “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.” When Paul was doing the evil that he would not, it was because he had not yet seen God; had not yet understood and experienced His great salvation.


You do not obtain righteousness through sinlessness. Your righteousness, (or mine at least) is as filthy rags. Christs righteousness is what brings eternal life to those that are saved.

Yes our own righteousness (doing good, being a good person, good works) before Salvation is definitely as filthy rags. After being saved & sanctification, we receive Christ's righteousness (sinless living). But the definition of righteousness is sinlessness. I'll even use the Bible to prove it:

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:

Unrighteousness is sin. Read that verse over several times and let that sink in. Now, let's continue to read the Word of God concerning righteousness (sinless) and unrighteousness (sin).

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The wrath of God abides on those who hold truth in unrighteousness (sin).

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Those in sin will perish becaue they do not love the truth.

Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

You have two choices here. Yield yourself (your body) into unrighteousness to sin, or righteousness (sinless living) unto God. You cannot have both at the same time. This verse displays a dichotomy of righteousness/unrighteousness.


All are spiritually dead before salvation. After one receives the Holy Spirit, he becomes Spiritually alive, and begins the path through sanctification.

Sin produces spiritual death, it's Bible.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 02:27 AM
A true experience of Sanctification takes care of the carnal heart, and you no longer have to give in to your "corrupted" body.


Livingword26 said:

The I believe it is safe to assume that you are a believer in instant, and total sanctification. It would also be safe to assume, that since you preach it, that you have become sinless.



Don't care to address this one?

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 02:51 AM
Don't care to address this one?

Sanctification is a second definite work of Grace, subsequent to Justification (Salvation).

Are you asking for Biblical support for it? If so it would take a few hundred pages....I could send you a .pdf file instead......

Through Christs power and strength, he gives me the grace and strength to resist every temptation. I Cor 10:13 promises I won't be tempted more than I am able to resist, therefore I do not have to sin. So no, I don't commit sin, but it's not my own righteousness, it's Gods. God gives his Children the grace and strength to live holy, righteous, and godly in THIS present world (Titus 2:11, I think....)

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2008, 03:44 AM
Before you became a Christian did you know you were a sinner?

Did someone not teach/preach the word of God to you for you to know what to do?

Is that not so with all men?

Firstfruits
I knew I was a sinner when God through His Word told me so, and it pricked my consience knowing I was and lost because of it. The Word told me to believe that Jesus died for me and I would be saved, so I told Him I agreed with Him that sin separated me from Him and asked Him to save me and He did. In that, I confessed I was a sinner after I knew that I was.
So yes, you are correct. But I don't think it is automatically so for all men in light of so many who think going to Church and just being a nice person, giving time and money thereby calling themselves Christian, saves them. You'd have to admit that many do think this.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 03:45 AM
Sanctification is a second definite work of Grace, subsequent to Justification (Salvation).

Are you asking for Biblical support for it? If so it would take a few hundred pages....I could send you a .pdf file instead......



No thanks, I don't need your pdf file. However, if it takes you a few hundred pages to prove a simple doctrine, perhaps you need to re-examine your conclusions. No one would argue that sanctification takes place after salvation, but that is not the same thing as perfection. Trying to place Romans 7 before Paul's conversion, conflicts with the last line in the chapter

(Rom 7:14) For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

(Rom 7:15) For that which I do, I know not. For what I desire, that I do not do; but what I hate, that I do.

(Rom 7:16) If then I do that which I do not desire, I consent to the law that it is good.

(Rom 7:17) But now it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.

(Rom 7:18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find.

(Rom 7:19) For I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do.

(Rom 7:20) But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me.

(Rom 7:21) I find then a law: when I will to do the right, evil is present with me.

(Rom 7:22) For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;

(Rom 7:23) but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.

(Rom 7:24) O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

(Rom 7:25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


Notice he does not say the law of sin and death, just the law of sin.

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2008, 03:55 AM
Luke 5:32
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Why would Jesus need to call sinners to repentance if it was just going to be given to them? That would make no sense. Why didn't He say "I came not to give the righteous, but sinners repentance"? He called many, but only few are chosen (Matt 20:16, Matt 22:14). Why? Because sinners must choose to repent. Those who choose not to repent and believe the gospel are not chosen for salvation.

Sorry, I'm jumping in the midst of the sentence but the reason Jesus didn't call the righteous to repentance is because there are NONE who are righteous.
The only ones who are righteous are those who have already accepted the Lord Jesus as their Savior and they don't have righteousness on their own at that, but are covered with the righteousness of the Lord Himself.
Sinners must repent (change their minds by going from not believing the Gospel to believing it).

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 03:55 AM
Notice he does not say the law of sin and death, just the law of sin.

Romans 8 is Paul's experience after receiving Full Salvation. Romans 7 is before that experience was obtained.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The reason why the study is a few hundred pages is because it [the doctrine] is ALL throughout the Bible, thus you are hanging on to one chapter (Romans 7) as proof of a doctrine, wheras I hang on to the COMPLETE word of God as proof of a doctrine.

Unless there's a change of heart, attitude, and mind, I can't really help you, neither can God. That may sound rude or harsh but I don't mean it to be, it's the truth. I'm not going to run around in circles with you over what Romans 6-8 is really all about. If you don't accept it, just say so. That way I don't have to sit here and find scripture to try to show you what th Bible says. If all you want to do is argue, I'm not interested. I'm interested in finding honest souls who want to truly change and stop the sin business.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 04:20 AM
Romans 8 is Paul's experience after receiving Full Salvation. Romans 7 is before that experience was obtained.



So there is partial salvation?




Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



The law of sin and death




The reason why the study is a few hundred pages is because it [the doctrine] is ALL throughout the Bible, thus you are hanging on to one chapter (Romans 7) as proof of a doctrine, wheras I hang on to the COMPLETE word of God as proof of a doctrine.

Actually there is a considerable amount of scripture being posted on this thread besides any in Romans.




Unless there's a change of heart, attitude, and mind, I can't really help you, neither can God. Your arrogance is astounding. I think you need to re-examine your understanding of sin. You can't help anyone, and your assertion that God can't either is another tell of your state of mind. Who exactly do you thing changes the heart, attitude, and minds of men?

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 04:27 AM
The law of sin and death

Actually there is a considerable amount of scripture being posted on this thread besides any in Romans.

Your arrogance is astounding. I think you need to re-examine your understanding of sin. You can't help anyone, and your assertion that God can't either is another tell of your state of mind. Who exactly do you thing changes the heart, attitude, and minds of men?

I'm doing my best to respond to the scriptures accordingly. The most popular are Romans 7, and I John chapter 1 which speaks of "if we say we have no sin....."

I'm actually not arrogant in the least, nor am I trying to be. Perhaps you simply are interpreting it that way, which I'm not sure why :hmm:. Ever been misunderstood before? It's possible to misunderstand others intentions as well. For you to state that I'm arrogant could probably be qualified as an attack on my character....may I ask what I've done unto you to deserve an attack like that? Not that my feelings are hurt because they aren't, I've been called worse before believe me :lol:. Instead of attacking the person for bringing forth the scriptures, let's discuss the scriptures instead. But if all you (or others) want is to argue, then I'm not interested in doing such....

My point about the change of heart, mind, etc was that if a soul does not see their sinful condition as God sees it, then God cannot do anything to help them be delivered. If a soul does not WANT deliverance from sin, they won't get it.

My understanding of sin comes from God's Word, and that cannot be denied. I have posted various scriptures to show beyond the shadow of a doubt what the definition of sin is using God's Word. But I can't make you (or anyone else) see it and believe it.

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 04:31 AM
I'm doing my best to respond to the scriptures accordingly. The most popular are Romans 7, and I John chapter 1 which speaks of "if we say we have no sin....."

I'm actually not arrogant in the least, nor am I trying to be. Perhaps you simply are interpreting it that way, which I'm not sure why :hmm:. Ever been misunderstood before? It's possible to misunderstand others intentions as well. For you to state that I'm arrogant could probably be qualified as an attack on my character....may I ask what I've done unto you to deserve an attack like that? Not that my feelings are hurt because they aren't, I've been called worse before believe me :lol:. Instead of attacking the person for bringing forth the scriptures, let's discuss the scriptures instead. But if all you (or others) want is to argue, then I'm not interested in doing such....

My point about the change of heart, mind, etc was that if a soul does not see their sinful condition as God sees it, then God cannot do anything to help them be delivered. If a soul does not WANT deliverance from sin, they won't get it.

My understanding of sin comes from God's Word, and that cannot be denied. I have posted various scriptures to show beyond the shadow of a doubt what the definition of sin is using God's Word. But I can't make you (or anyone else) see it and believe it.


Your way of posting comes across as if you think yourself to be holy, sinless and perfect. And that we are sinners, pitifully ignorant, and need you to graciously sweep in and fix everything for us.

You even suggest that we don't want to be delivered from sin.

Arrogance and a condescending attitude can be considered a sin, faithfulfriend.

Do you not realize that you are offending us?

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 04:39 AM
Your way of posting comes across as if you think yourself to be holy, sinless and perfect. And that we are sinners, pitifully ignorant, and need you to graciously sweep in and fix everything for us.

You even suggest that we don't want to be delivered from sin.

Arrogance and a condescending attitude can be considered a sin, faithfulfriend.

Do you not realize that you are offending us?

If an individual commits sin, what does that make them?

A sinner.....

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

Those two verses show a huge difference.

I never said you were ignorant, and I would never say that. The suggestion that there are some on this forum/thread who don't want to be delivered from sin is a valid statement. May I ask you a question? Do you want complete deliverance from sin? Would you do whatever it takes in order to be free from sin, free from its bondage? Do you like sin?

I hate sin. I've seen what sin (in the past) has done to my mind, life, and body. I hate it so much that I'm never going back to it. I hate the Devil so much that by the grace of God I'll never give into temptation, and I'll live the way God wants me to live, with his help and strength.

I don't have an arrogant or condescending attitude at all, that is just an assumption and accusation. I'm doing my very best to be of a help.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 05:49 AM
If an individual commits sin, what does that make them?

A sinner.....

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

Those two verses show a huge difference.




I John 1:8 was written to Cerinthus. A proto-gnostic who denied Christ.

This verse was not written to Christians. Christians don't commit sin. We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree and move on.

So, the first chapter of 1John is not written to Christians, but the third chapter is? Can you prove that in some way. Matching your doctrine is not proof either.

Firstfruits
Oct 24th 2008, 07:52 AM
Again, like I said above...repentance is not something we can accomplish on our own. For those who disagree, how do you deal with the verses I listed in this post? Scripture teaches that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrews 11:6). If repentance comes before salvation, then it comes before faith. Anything we do that is not done in faith is sin (Romans 14:23).

I'm not arguing that repentance isn't necessary, it is the EVIDENCE of God's working in us. I'm arguing that Scripture teaches that apart from faith, and apart from God working in us, we can do NO good thing (John 15:5) - not even repent.

Why would you repent if you did not believe the gospel of repentance through which we have salvation by faith in Christ?

Firstfruits

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 10:33 AM
Why would you repent if you did not believe the gospel of repentance through which we have salvation by faith in Christ?

Firstfruits

I cannot seem to find the term "gospel of repentance" in the bible? In fact it is by grace you are saved, through faith.

Eph 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


2Ti 3:15
(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


1Pe 1:3-7
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
(5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
(7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Firstfruits
Oct 24th 2008, 10:47 AM
I cannot seem to find the term "gospel of repentance" in the bible? In fact it is by grace you are saved, through faith.

Eph 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


2Ti 3:15
(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


1Pe 1:3-7
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
(5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
(7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Lk 24:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=24&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Is this not the gospel that is preached?

Firstfruits

Veretax
Oct 24th 2008, 11:31 AM
1 John 1:5-10
"5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Thus, Christ cleanses us from all sin. There is no qualifier that he only cleanses us from sin that we commit before believing him. To suggest that is to make salvation, by grace, through faith, and then only maintained by keeping the law. Is this not what some of the Judeaizers preached that Paul warned about? Note that he says if we Confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive them, and cleanse us, so the correct wayof understanding this is that Christ cleanseses us from all sin, so that if we do sin after we are saved, we need only confess the sin and he will cleanse us from it.



2 Cor 5:12-21

"12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 hat is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."


Jesus died for all, and he died for all that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and rose. Or in otherwords that we who live should live for Christ. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creature/creation, old things have passed awa, behold all things are now new and are of God who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and he has then given us the ministry of reconciliation. What is that ministry? Are we not now ambassadors of Christ so that we may draw people to Christ to be reconciled to God?

Notice verse 21. That we might become the righteousness of God in Him. That's a very interesting tense of verbs there. It doesn't say we are, it says the we may be come, the Greek interlinear says this might become is "may-be-becoming". Hrms...

Then in Romans 3:27-31

"27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

We are not justified by works or deeds of the law, but by faith. Then in Romans 4:1-4

"1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."

How was Abraham justified? Abraham believed God and it (belief/faith) was accounted to him for righteousness. Faith => Righteousness. so the opposite would be Without Faith => Unrighteousness. We are not made righteous by works of the law, we are made righteous by faith. As it says in verse 4, Now to him who works, the wages are not ounted as grace, but as debt.

The passage continues: Romans: 4:5-8

"5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”"


Again, he who does not work, but beleives on Him who justifies the Ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. It then gives the example of David as he describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputs righteousness apart from works. Then later in that chapter he concluds that Abraham's faith came before the circumcision, and before the promise was fulfilled.

This does not mean, that we who have faith accounted to us for righteousness, that sin does not have consequences though:

Hebrews 12:3-11

"3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

Its clear that whom the Lord loves he chastens, and he scourges every son whom He receives, and we are to endure it. God deals with us (christians) as sons, not as someone outside off the family. If the Lord does not chasten us, then we are illegitimate and not sons. Which to me I take that as a warning, if you sin, and there seems to be no discipline for it, you may not be in the body.


The only person who was ever perfect was Christ. It is his righteousness that is accounted to us who put our faith in him. That is what God looks at, and that is how God reckons us as his children.

BroRog
Oct 24th 2008, 03:08 PM
Because the scripture clearly shows a difference in the two. Question for you, if it's okay to sin and go to Heaven, why bother to go to church? Why bother to read the Bible?

Most religious people try to have both, but God's Word shows a definite difference in the two.

Ro 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Note the "therefore." This command is gleaned from the preceding scripture. Recall in verses 9-11 that as Christ died unto sin, so should we. Verse 12 confirms that being dead to sin is to live without sin. Because we are dead to sin, we are no longer under the law of sin and death, and we will no longer OBEY this law that we may succumb to sin.

Keep your eye out for a thread I'm going to start soon called "Holiness". I'm going to post a study of what true Bible Holiness and it should answer yours and many other people's questions.

You really didn't address my question. I asked you why it couldn't be both and you said scripture shows a difference. Well, my question assumed there WAS a difference. It isn't, as you suggest, that us religious people try to have both. We have both because that's our current experience. As John said, if we deny that we sin, the truth is not in us.

You asked, "Question for you, if it's okay to sin and go to Heaven, why bother to go to church? Why bother to read the Bible?"

Well, I suppose an answer to this question might interest some people. But I wonder where you got the idea that I think it "okay" to sin?

With regard to Romans 6:12, it should be noted that this statement comes in the context of a question, "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" This question comes as a logical implication of Paul's earlier argument that where sin increased, grace abounded even more. And Paul asks the question rhetorically in order to raise a common objection to his Gospel, "Isn't it true, Paul, that your gospel promotes sin since you teach that God's grace surpasses our sinfulness, even as it might be on the increase?"

He responds, "May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? His answer relies on the idea that a repudiation of sin logically leads the penitent to avoid sin as much as possible. If a man has accepted the gospel fact that Christ died to free him of sin, and he has repudiated sin, and he wants to be free from it, his sin will not increase but decrease. Therefore, his gospel does not promote an increase in sin, but a decrease of it.

Nonetheless, his argument assumes two essential truths: those in Christ have died to sin, which is a current reality, and those in Christ will find life in him, which is a future hope.

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him . . .

The first part of his statement is in the past tense. If we have died -- and if we are in Christ we have died -- we shall also live -- future tense. We have something now: death to sin; we will gain something in the future: life with him.

The question is, what do we do in the mean time? What do we do while we await our ultimate glorification?

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness to God.

I take note of Paul's language here. He asks that sin not reign in our mortal body. And we are to accomplish this by choosing to present our members as instruments of righteousness rather than serving our lusts. In this we have two major ideas: that sin not reign; and that we have a choice what do do with our body. But Paul says as much by what he doesn't say as he does by what he does say.

The idea is that we are not to allow sin to reign in our bodies, which doesn't also mean that sin will be eradicated from our experience. The issue here is whether we will reign, or sin will. But this isn't a choice to eliminate sin altogether. He doesn't say that we will have complete dominance over our sin. Why?

For one thing, his command applies to what I do with my body, it doesn't say anything about my core nature. As a man who repudiates sin, and wishes to be free from it, I can certainly chose to use my members to serve righteousness. But I can't rid myself of my core selfishness, lust, and covetousness. He commands me to not use my members to obey my lust, but at the same time he says this, he acknowledges that I still have lust. The lust is still there. It never goes away. It won't be gone until our glorification, which is our future hope.

The sinless life is a future hope, not a present reality.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 03:31 PM
Were does it say "He knocks at the door of our hearts"?It doesn't have to say it. Do you think He knocks on a literal door?

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 04:11 PM
I cannot seem to find the term "gospel of repentance" in the bible? In fact it is by grace you are saved, through faith.

Eph 2:8-9
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


2Ti 3:15
(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


1Pe 1:3-7
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
(5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
(7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:You have to read scripture as a whole. Not every passage that mentions salvation includes every detail about salvation. Just like every passage that mentions the second coming of Christ doesn't include every detail related to what happens immediately before, during and after the second coming. Same thing for other doctrines.

If you think repentance isn't necessary for salvation, then explain the following passages:

Matt 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 9
12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 11
20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Matthew 21
32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mark 1
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 6
10And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 13
1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 15
7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
8Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luke 24
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 8
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 11
18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 17
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 20
20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 26
19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

2 Corinthians 7
9Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Peter 3
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 2
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 3
3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 05:28 PM
It doesn't have to say it. Do you think He knocks on a literal door?

Yes, in the image of the letter to the Laodiceans - they were so self-sufficient that they had left Christ outside of their meetings - He was asking to come in!

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 07:11 PM
If an individual commits sin, what does that make them?

A sinner.....

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

Those two verses show a huge difference.

I never said you were ignorant, and I would never say that. The suggestion that there are some on this forum/thread who don't want to be delivered from sin is a valid statement. May I ask you a question? Do you want complete deliverance from sin? Would you do whatever it takes in order to be free from sin, free from its bondage? Do you like sin?

I hate sin. I've seen what sin (in the past) has done to my mind, life, and body. I hate it so much that I'm never going back to it. I hate the Devil so much that by the grace of God I'll never give into temptation, and I'll live the way God wants me to live, with his help and strength.

I don't have an arrogant or condescending attitude at all, that is just an assumption and accusation. I'm doing my very best to be of a help.Do you believe "babes in Christ" are Christians? I mean it does say "in Christ" so how could they not be, right? Do you think that Christians are supposed to be completely spiritually mature right off the bat when they are saved? If so, explain the following passage to me:

1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Notice he calls them "brethren" and "babes in Christ". Whether you like it or not, Paul was saying these spiritually immature people were his fellow Christians. They did believe in Christ, but they were lacking in understanding at that point.

All Christians start with spiritual milk. It takes time to get to the point where we are ready for spiritual meat. Nowhere does scripture say that one must become sinless in order to be saved. When we are first born again the Spirit has some work to do on us that takes time. You are in error if you believe that someone has to become sinless in order to be saved or that we immediately become sinless when we are saved.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 07:28 PM
Yes, in the image of the letter to the Laodiceans - they were so self-sufficient that they had left Christ outside of their meetings - He was asking to come in!He wasn't talking in terms of coming in to a specific group or to a meeting. He said, "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.". If any individual opens the door of their heart to Him by repenting and believing in Him, He will come in to their hearts and dwell there. He was speaking in terms of the Spirit coming to dwell in the hearts of any person who opens the door of their hearts to Him.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2008, 10:30 PM
It doesn't have to say it. Do you think He knocks on a literal door?

Why would I think it a literal door?

cowabunga
Oct 25th 2008, 12:14 AM
Hi! I read this here from somebody who is against easy-believism. Is what he says right?


Contrary to what is preached, repentance is not just changing one’s mind as he claims, but also includes turning away from sins and towards Christ. Likewise, when the bible speaks of belief (pisteu) it carries with it a sense of “clinging onto” Christ - not just intellectual belief as is claimed (Matt 7:21-23).

Veretax
Oct 25th 2008, 12:18 AM
I think we as believers need to be very careful when we start touting our experiences. Experiences can be wrong, and we should not base our beliefs on them, instead we should base our beliefs on the trut in God's word and then compare it to our experience. We should not come from experience to truth. Does that make sense?

9Marksfan
Oct 25th 2008, 12:37 AM
Hi! I read this here from somebody who is against easy-believism. Is what he says right?

Yes - I've just finished preparing a sermon on this very subject for Sunday! Acts 20:20-21 - repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ - we have to forsake sin, turn away from it toward God and cling to Christ - no other way!

9Marksfan
Oct 25th 2008, 12:40 AM
He wasn't talking in terms of coming in to a specific group or to a meeting. He said, "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.". If any individual opens the door of their heart to Him by repenting and believing in Him, He will come in to their hearts and dwell there. He was speaking in terms of the Spirit coming to dwell in the hearts of any person who opens the door of their hearts to Him.

No - it's the church He's addressing - just like if you were having a party and you heard a knock at the door and you invited someone into the party, others might ignore the knocking and even ignire them oince they've come in but they would converse with you and you with them - and you'd probably eat together too - that's what it's like in so many churches - there are a few who have real fellowship with Jesus in the meetings - while the majority just go through the motions without Him, thinking everything is OK.....

My heart's Desire
Oct 25th 2008, 04:52 AM
Yes - I've just finished preparing a sermon on this very subject for Sunday! Acts 20:20-21 - repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ - we have to forsake sin, turn away from it toward God and cling to Christ - no other way!
So we have a sinner, addicted to Meth, a thief for their addiction, dying from alcoholism(the worse you can think of, Lost, without hope, without God in the World, maybe in the gutter, also feeling totally hopeless to fight their addiction. Someone comes to them and says, Friend, there is hope, just repent, give up all this Meth, come clean right away, stop drinking, quit stealing, turn from it all, turn to God and then cling to Christ and you'll be saved? How often does that happen? If they are all that and can't give up the sin, then how in the world do they give it up so Christ can save them? Are we not asking them to quit their sin immediately so Christ can save them? Would that not be just as impossible for them to do anyway much less so someone can save them? I think we've got the cart before the horse. Someone who can do all that themselves, wouldn't need anyone to do that for them. Why would they even think they need salvation from such a condition if they thought they could (forsake, give up the sin) on their own?
I've heard conversion stories like the one I'm describing, but did they quit all of the above as a condition for Christ to save them? NO, some were delivered from it almost immediately BY Christ AFTER He saved them! They didn't have to get all clean so they could be cleansed. Many called out "God, if you're there, save Me!" Many I'm sure have called out in the midst of their distress, Jesus, I need help, SAVE ME! And I'm sure in His Grace (unmerited) and loving Mercy, Jesus Christ did just that!.

Firstfruits
Oct 25th 2008, 10:26 AM
So we have a sinner, addicted to Meth, a thief for their addiction, dying from alcoholism(the worse you can think of, Lost, without hope, without God in the World, maybe in the gutter, also feeling totally hopeless to fight their addiction. Someone comes to them and says, Friend, there is hope, just repent, give up all this Meth, come clean right away, stop drinking, quit stealing, turn from it all, turn to God and then cling to Christ and you'll be saved? How often does that happen? If they are all that and can't give up the sin, then how in the world do they give it up so Christ can save them? Are we not asking them to quit their sin immediately so Christ can save them? Would that not be just as impossible for them to do anyway much less so someone can save them? I think we've got the cart before the horse. Someone who can do all that themselves, wouldn't need anyone to do that for them. Why would they even think they need salvation from such a condition if they thought they could (forsake, give up the sin) on their own?
I've heard conversion stories like the one I'm describing, but did they quit all of the above as a condition for Christ to save them? NO, some were delivered from it almost immediately BY Christ AFTER He saved them! They didn't have to get all clean so they could be cleansed. Many called out "God, if you're there, save Me!" Many I'm sure have called out in the midst of their distress, Jesus, I need help, SAVE ME! And I'm sure in His Grace (unmerited) and loving Mercy, Jesus Christ did just that!.

That is the message of the kingdom, and from the first time it was given to now it has not changed.

Acts 2:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
Acts 2:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

livingword26
Oct 25th 2008, 01:28 PM
That is the message of the kingdom, and from the first time it was given to now it has not changed.

Acts 2:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:37 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
Acts 2:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

God bless you!

Firstfruits


The key to this verse is in the bolded words above. These people rejected, and crucified the messiah. That is what they were to repent of. One is not perfect after salvation, much less before. What one has to do to be saved is to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as acceptable payment for their sins. This brings the Holy Spirit, and the process of sanctification begins.

Act 15:28-29
(28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

Gal 3:1-15
(1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
(5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
(7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
(9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(15) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Veretax
Oct 25th 2008, 02:35 PM
If you look at the entire context of the John 3 Passage, Let's consider this from a more full understanding. What must happen before a mother can give birth? Must she not first conceive? Thus, in order that the analogy of being born again be complete, does it not stand to reason that there must be a spiritual conception before that happens? We know that the bible says that salvation comes by the hearing of the Word. I believe that is the conception of salvation. The word is planeted, and in so doing it plants the seed of life which is not born until man takes that word, trusts it, and turns to christ as the salvation from our sins.

Would that not stand to reason, as being a more full analogy of a new "spiritual" birth as Jesus was preaching to nichodemus? For we know from John 3:16 That God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, so that whosoever shall believe in him, would not perish, but have everlasting life. How can we be "born-again" into the kingdom if the seed of truth is not first conceived in our hearts?

Firstfruits
Oct 25th 2008, 05:57 PM
The key to this verse is in the bolded words above. These people rejected, and crucified the messiah. That is what they were to repent of. One is not perfect after salvation, much less before. What one has to do to be saved is to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as acceptable payment for their sins. This brings the Holy Spirit, and the process of sanctification begins.

Act 15:28-29
(28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

Gal 3:1-15
(1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
(4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
(5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
(7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
(8) And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
(9) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
(10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(15) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

When you repent according to the gospel are you repenting of the death of Christ or your sins as it is written they were to do?

Acts 2:38 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is Christs message that he preached.

Mt 4:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mk 1:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mk 1:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mk 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Acts 3:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Repentance is the message of the gospel.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 27th 2008, 10:18 AM
He wasn't talking in terms of coming in to a specific group or to a meeting. He said, "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.". If any individual opens the door of their heart to Him by repenting and believing in Him, He will come in to their hearts and dwell there. He was speaking in terms of the Spirit coming to dwell in the hearts of any person who opens the door of their hearts to Him.

Let's look at the whole passage to get the context, shall we?

“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’” Rev 3:14-22 NKJV

All the letters to the churches in Rev 2 and 3 were to be read to the entire church - that is why the "you" is always plural in the Greek - and the distinction is made between those who have been faithful and those who must repent (in the case of Laodicea, all of them) - the idea that Christ is knocking on the door of our hearts is a modern invention, probably as a result of Holman Hunt's famous picture and modern day semi-Pelagianism - the context is clear - EVERYONE in the church at Laodicea thought they were doing OK - but they weren't - Christ entreats them to repent - but if even ONE person repents and opens the door of the meeting place to Christ, He will come in and that person will have fellowship with Christ (again). Here's a problem for you - if the whole church was without Christ in an absolute sense (ie no one was saved there and everyone needed to "ask Jesus into their hearts"), how come Christ sees it as a genuine church?

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 07:04 PM
No - it's the church He's addressing - just like if you were having a party and you heard a knock at the door and you invited someone into the party, others might ignore the knocking and even ignire them oince they've come in but they would converse with you and you with them - and you'd probably eat together too - that's what it's like in so many churches - there are a few who have real fellowship with Jesus in the meetings - while the majority just go through the motions without Him, thinking everything is OK.....I disagree. You seem to be reading things into the text that aren't there. He clearly was speaking in terms of individuals in that verse. He said, "If ANY MAN hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me". It doesn't say "any church" or "any group". It says "any man".

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 07:13 PM
Let's look at the whole passage to get the context, shall we?We shall


“And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’” Rev 3:14-22 NKJV

All the letters to the churches in Rev 2 and 3 were to be read to the entire church - that is why the "you" is always plural in the Greek - and the distinction is made between those who have been faithful and those who must repent (in the case of Laodicea, all of them) - the idea that Christ is knocking on the door of our hearts is a modern inventionThat's simply incorrect. You are making baseless claims and nothing more.


probably as a result of Holman Hunt's famous picture and modern day semi-Pelagianism - the context is clear - EVERYONE in the church at Laodicea thought they were doing OK - but they weren't - Christ entreats them to repent - but if even ONE person repents and opens the door of the meeting place to Christ, He will come in and that person will have fellowship with Christ (again). Here's a problem for you - if the whole church was without Christ in an absolute sense (ie no one was saved there and everyone needed to "ask Jesus into their hearts"), how come Christ sees it as a genuine church?How exactly do the words "anyone" and "him who overcomes" apply to the whole church of the Laodiceans instead of to individuals? Clearly, he was speaking on both a corporate and individual basis within that passage. You are not differentiating between the two. Verses 20 and 21 apply to any individuals who would open the door of their hearts and who would overcome, respectively.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 27th 2008, 07:28 PM
He wasn't talking in terms of coming in to a specific group or to a meeting. He said, "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.". If any individual opens the door of their heart to Him by repenting and believing in Him, He will come in to their hearts and dwell there. He was speaking in terms of the Spirit coming to dwell in the hearts of any person who opens the door of their hearts to Him.

Sorry John146

That is purely conjecture, and error taught by the traditions of man.

He was talking to the church about their works. Christ was standing at the door, because they left Him outside. The 'facts' are that it was their works that were neither cold or hot, but lukewarm.

If it was about the heart and Salvation, then why would He bring it up about works?
Who can do His works, unless they are first saved and are His?

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 08:15 PM
Sorry John146

That is purely conjecture, and error taught by the traditions of man.Nonsense. It is the traditions of man that teach you to say things like that.

Rev 3
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Explain to me how the words "any man", "him", "he" and "him that overcometh" apply to a group rather than to individuals.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 27th 2008, 08:38 PM
Nonsense. It is the traditions of man that teach you to say things like that.

Rev 3
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Explain to me how the words "any man", "him", "he" and "him that overcometh" apply to a group rather than to individuals.

What? His word in nonsense, and you tradition is true?

That is what the word does actually say.
Am I to take your conjecture, above what it does say?

The letter was to the Church, and the Lord said that He would spew them out.

Tell me this; How could He spew them out, if they were not in Him?
How could they be 'in' Him, if they had not already been His?

Because they [the Church] would not hear, because they [the Church] would not see, the Lord invites any man who would hear.
God will always look for a remnant.

Firstfruits
Oct 27th 2008, 08:39 PM
I disagree. You seem to be reading things into the text that aren't there. He clearly was speaking in terms of individuals in that verse. He said, "If ANY MAN hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me". It doesn't say "any church" or "any group". It says "any man".

I believe that is no different to the following which speaks to the individual.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 09:22 PM
What? His word in nonsense, and you tradition is true?Is that what I said? No, it's not. I believe it was nonsense for you to say that my commentary was "purely conjecture, and error taught by the traditions of man". My interpretation of those verses comes from my own study and not from any tradition.


That is what the word does actually say.
Am I to take your conjecture, above what it does say?

The letter was to the Church, and the Lord said that He would spew them out.

Tell me this; How could He spew them out, if they were not in Him?
How could they be 'in' Him, if they had not already been His?

Because they [the Church] would not hear, because they [the Church] would not see, the Lord invites any man who would hear.
God will always look for a remnant."Any man" is a reference to any individual person and "him who overcomes" is a reference to any individual person who overcomes. What is so hard to understand about that?

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 09:24 PM
I believe that is no different to the following which speaks to the individual.

Rev 22:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God bless you!

FirstfruitsI agree. Just like Rev 3:20, Jesus is speaking to all people and inviting any individual who has the desire to open the door of their hearts to Him and take the water of life freely.

*Hope*
Oct 27th 2008, 09:41 PM
It is pretty common knowledge that the book of Revelations was written to the seven churches.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 27th 2008, 10:25 PM
I agree. Just like Rev 3:20, Jesus is speaking to all people and inviting any individual who has the desire to open the door of their hearts to Him and take the water of life freely.

Sorry but again, it does not say that.

You have to renounce too many truths to reach that interpretation.

If you are an honest person, please answer these questions:

Was this letter to the Church?

Was the letter about their works?

Are we known by our works, or our fruit?

How could He spew them out, if they were not in Him?

How could they be 'in' Him, if they had not already been His?

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Does the Lord rebuke and chasten His children, or bastards?

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 12:34 AM
I disagree. You seem to be reading things into the text that aren't there. He clearly was speaking in terms of individuals in that verse. He said, "If ANY MAN hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me". It doesn't say "any church" or "any group". It says "any man".

It's "any man" in the church!

Dani H
Oct 28th 2008, 02:43 AM
Repentance may not necessarily always have anything to do with sin.

It can also simply mean falling out of agreement with a belief that does not line up with Scripture, and coming in line with what God says about something. If the Holy Spirit is bringing you to un-learn something you believed or thought was true, then you are repenting, without necessarily having sinned every time.

Repentance starts with learning the truth about Jesus and entering His Kingdom, and then continues as we progress through His Kingdom and unlearn our old ways and embrace His instead. We're forever un-learning, learning, growing and adjusting as God reveals more of Himself to us.

I don't know where exactly this thread is at the current time, just wanted to throw that on in here, with regards to the OP. :)

Seems to be a lot of arguing happening, so I'll let you get back to that ...

Cheers.

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 09:27 AM
Repentance may not necessarily always have anything to do with sin.

It can also simply mean falling out of agreement with a belief that does not line up with Scripture, and coming in line with what God says about something. If the Holy Spirit is bringing you to un-learn something you believed or thought was true, then you are repenting, without necessarily having sinned every time.

But surely if you have believed someting that is contrary to Scripture, that is a lie? Even idolatry/rebellion? Even if the belief was held in ignorance, I believe we can sin in ignorance (as Paul did) - if repentance is turning to God, then surely EVERYTHING we turn from is sinful, otherwise why would we need to turn from it?!? :hmm:


Repentance starts with learning the truth about Jesus and entering His Kingdom, and then continues as we progress through His Kingdom and unlearn our old ways and embrace His instead. We're forever un-learning, learning, growing and adjusting as God reveals more of Himself to us.

Amen! But the reason we have to unlearn stuff is because it is displeading to God - agreed? And isn't sin displeasing to God?


I don't know where exactly this thread is at the current time, just wanted to throw that on in here, with regards to the OP. :)

Seems to be a lot of arguing happening, so I'll let you get back to that ...

Cheers.

:rofl:

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 11:39 AM
Hrms, I've not pondered this too deeply, but I do see a possible point. I was raised in a reformed Presbyterian church, baptized as an infant, then was saved in Feb of 1990. I continued to live under that teaching until I got to College, wherein I had to search for the church where the Lord wanted me. Over time he showed me one thing after another that I had once taken by faith and believed as correct doctrine to be incorrect by scripture.

My entire way of thinking about how things worked changed, and God showed me those things through study. One by one tearing down the walls that I had held to in ignorance. Now was it sin to believe those things which were wrong? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that God keeps showing me more and more from his scripture, and as he does so my understanding of the bible grows and changes. Some of that is natural growth, and some of it is correcting growth. But in all cases (for example with baptism), I turned from what I had my mind once believed, to that which I now believe is the truth. I turned from error, and to truth.

I don't know whether it is a sin to be in error like that or not, it certainly could be, all I know is that God has guided me to what I believe is now correct in these matters.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 04:04 PM
Sorry but again, it does not say that.

You have to renounce too many truths to reach that interpretation.

If you are an honest person, please answer these questions:If I'm an honest person? Could you possibly be more offensive? Think about if I questioned whether you were an honest person. I believe everyone here is an honest person.


Was this letter to the Church?Yes, and to individuals within it.


Was the letter about their works?

Are we known by our works, or our fruit?

How could He spew them out, if they were not in Him?

How could they be 'in' Him, if they had not already been His?

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Does the Lord rebuke and chasten His children, or bastards?

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.You have completely missed the point and you are not addressing the fact that Rev 3:20-21 uses terms that speak of individuals. Does "any man" mean "any church"? Does "him who overcomes" mean "the church who overcomes"? Try to address the issue instead of going off on tangents.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 04:12 PM
It's "any man" in the church!Were all the people in the churches saved? No. Jesus was telling "any man" that was in the church that He was knocking on the door of their hearts and if he/she would open the door He would come in. This was a message particularly to the unbelievers who were there. Believers already had Christ in their hearts. Jesus was telling those who He said were "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" to repent and He invited them to open the door of their hearts to Him so that He could come in to them (their hearts). This invitation is not just to those who were in that church, but to all people.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 04:27 PM
Were all the people in the churches saved? No. Jesus was telling "any man" that was in the church that He was knocking on the door of their hearts and if he/she would open the door He would come in. This was a message particularly to the unbelievers who were there. Believers already had Christ in their hearts. Jesus was telling those who He said were "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" to repent and He invited them to open the door of their hearts to Him so that He could come in to them (their hearts). This invitation is not just to those who were in that church, but to all people.



Why do you suppose Jesus would be knocking on the door of someone's heart? Let's read this in it's context, and could you tell me where the heart is even mentioned?





Revelation 3:20
Revelation 3:19-22


19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

He is talking to the churches. Not to a man and his heart. Jesus doesn't have to have someone open the door to their heart....in fact, God is the only one who could do that. If it was left up to us, we wouldn't ever come to Jesus.
Jesus is talking to the "professing" church. The whole point of the churches in Revelation is how God really sees them, which is how they really are. The church He is speaking to professes Him, but won't even allow Him in. That means they aren't even saved. They are a false church, not a true one.
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 42And many believed on him there.

Jesus was knocking because they didn't know Him, and He didn't know them. If They were His, He wouldn't be knocking, He would be there already...
It's like the saying today, that if Jesus walked into a church today, many would turn Him away.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 04:40 PM
Why do you suppose Jesus would be knocking on the door of someone's heart? Let's read this in it's context, and could you tell me where the heart is even mentioned?It doesn't have to be mentioned. Jesus is speaking to "any man" which means any individual person. If He's not talking about any person opening the door of their hearts, then what door is He talking about?


Revelation 3:20
Revelation 3:19-22


19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

He is talking to the churches. Not to a man and his heart.He is talking to individual people in the churches.


Jesus doesn't have to have someone open the door to their heart....in fact, God is the only one who could do that. If it was left up to us, we wouldn't ever come to Jesus.
Jesus is talking to the "professing" church. The whole point of the churches in Revelation is how God really sees them, which is how they really are. The church He is speaking to professes Him, but won't even allow Him in. That means they aren't even saved. They are a false church, not a true one.
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 42And many believed on him there.

Jesus was knocking because they didn't know Him, and He didn't know them. If They were His, He wouldn't be knocking, He would be there already...
It's like the saying today, that if Jesus walked into a church today, many would turn Him away.I'll ask you the same thing I've asked the others. Does "any man" mean "any church"? Does "him that overcometh" mean "the church that overcometh"?

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 05:40 PM
It doesn't have to be mentioned. Jesus is speaking to "any man" which means any individual person. If He's not talking about any person opening the door of their hearts, then what door is He talking about?

He is talking to individual people in the churches.

I'll ask you the same thing I've asked the others. Does "any man" mean "any church"? Does "him that overcometh" mean "the church that overcometh"?


He is not talking to any man. That is not even in the context of what you are talking about. He is talking to the professing church, which I think I said earlier. He wouldn't be telling each individual Christian to overcome, for in HIM, we have already overcome.
Where are you getting the " any man' thing? Am I missing something?

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 06:14 PM
Were all the people in the churches saved? No. Jesus was telling "any man" that was in the church that He was knocking on the door of their hearts and if he/she would open the door He would come in. This was a message particularly to the unbelievers who were there. Believers already had Christ in their hearts. Jesus was telling those who He said were "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" to repent and He invited them to open the door of their hearts to Him so that He could come in to them (their hearts). This invitation is not just to those who were in that church, but to all people.

Is there any other example in Scripture or in secular or religious writing at that time that considers that a divine being can "knock on the door of a person's heart"? In other words, why should "door" not mean "door of your meeting place", since he is writing to a church, who would have met together - several individuals. Why is that NOT a possible interpretation? Why does yours HAVE to be the ONLY interpretation? Scripture/Greek please - not a repetition of your previous posts.

Firstfruits
Oct 28th 2008, 07:38 PM
Is there any other example in Scripture or in secular or religious writing at that time that considers that a divine being can "knock on the door of a person's heart"? In other words, why should "door" not mean "door of your meeting place", since he is writing to a church, who would have met together - several individuals. Why is that NOT a possible interpretation? Why does yours HAVE to be the ONLY interpretation? Scripture/Greek please - not a repetition of your previous posts.

Here are some other examples using "door"

Gen 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

What does it mean for sin to lie at the door?

Acts 14:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

What is the door of faith, how do we believe?

Jas 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

What is the door that the judge stands before, who is the judge?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 08:24 PM
Here are some other examples using "door"

Gen 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=1&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

What does it mean for sin to lie at the door?

To be very close.


Acts 14:27 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=14&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=27) And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

What is the door of faith, how do we believe?

It could be a "door of opportunity" - ie that the gospel was having an effect upon the Gentiles - they too were responding by faith.


Jas 5:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

What is the door that the judge stands before, who is the judge?

Christ is the judge - but "standing at the door" is a proverbial phrase, like sin "crouching at the door" - ie very close.

I still don't see any verses that give the slightest suggestion that Jesus knocks at the door of our hearts, waiting for us to open them.

Here's a point - do you believe that the human heart only has a "handle" on the inside? That only we can open it, no matter how hard or how long Jesus knocks?

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 08:30 PM
To be very close.



It could be a "door of opportunity" - ie that the gospel was having an effect upon the Gentiles - they too were responding by faith.



Christ is the judge - but "standing at the door" is a proverbial phrase, like sin "crouching at the door" - ie very close.

I still don't see any verses that give the slightest suggestion that Jesus knocks at the door of our hearts, waiting for us to open them.



Here's a point - do you believe that the human heart only has a "handle" on the inside? That only we can open it, no matter how hard or how long Jesus knocks?



what a scary thought that would be. None of us would be saved...
I believe we have some modern day evangelists and pastors, preachers and teachers to blame for this. They saw something that sounded good, and ran with it, though it isn't biblical and actually changes the meaning of a bunch of scripture. :(Not to mention the painting...you know, the one where Jesus is standing at the door but there is no knob? They tried to take away the power of Our God, but it won't always remain so. Thank God for that. God Bless.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 08:38 PM
He is not talking to any man. That is not even in the context of what you are talking about. He is talking to the professing church, which I think I said earlier. He wouldn't be telling each individual Christian to overcome, for in HIM, we have already overcome.
Where are you getting the " any man' thing? Am I missing something?Apparently so.

Rev 3
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 08:44 PM
Is there any other example in Scripture or in secular or religious writing at that time that considers that a divine being can "knock on the door of a person's heart"? In other words, why should "door" not mean "door of your meeting place", since he is writing to a church, who would have met together - several individuals. Why is that NOT a possible interpretation? Why does yours HAVE to be the ONLY interpretation? Scripture/Greek please - not a repetition of your previous posts.If you're not going to agree with me based on my previous posts then I guess you're just not going to agree with me. So be it. I've done all I can to show that He was speaking of an individual matter by pointing out the terms "any man", "him", "he", and "him that overcometh". I don't know what more I can do.

Do you think Jesus was asking them to open the literal door of their church building so that He could then walk in? He is clearly not speaking literally in that verse.

There is one other way of looking at this that I don't think I mentioned before.

John 14
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So, here we see Jesus speaking about Himself and the Father coming into a person and making their abode with Him and this happens in the person of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16).

Now, let's look at Rev 3:20 again.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Based on how this type of language is used elsewhere by Jesus Himself, how can He be speaking of anything here but coming into a person's heart or spirit and making His abode in them through the person of the Holy Spirit?

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 09:08 PM
Apparently so.

Rev 3
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Ok, I see where you are getting that man now but it still doesn't support your heart thing. He is standing at the door of a church. I would think as big in context as you are you would see that? :confused

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 09:14 PM
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Based on how this type of language is used elsewhere by Jesus Himself, how can He be speaking of anything here but coming into a person's heart or spirit and making His abode in them through the person of the Holy Spirit?


well, I at least see where you are coming from now, but still not why you came to the conclusion you did. Go back to the beginning of the chapter and see who God is speaking to...yes, He is speaking to any man...WITHIN the professing Church. The people are obviously not saved or they would already be overcomers...I think you would agree with that?
You also are not looking at the truth that God calls us. If He doesn't call us, we won't be saved. The way you are interpreting this is that unless we as humans LET Jesus in, He can't come in. Jesus is God and He can do what He chooses to do. He may choose not to, but He IS able.
Tell me, why do you think Jesus would stop right in the middle of letters to the churches and go to individual people's hearts?

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 09:20 PM
Ok, I see where you are getting that man now but it still doesn't support your heart thing. He is standing at the door of a church. I would think as big in context as you are you would see that? :confusedYou are wondering why I'm not seeing what you're seeing when you didn't even see something very obvious until I pointed it out to you? Okay. :rolleyes:

So, what are you saying? That He was looking for just one person, any person, to open the door of the church so that He would then come in to the church? How does that make sense?

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 09:25 PM
You are wondering why I'm not seeing what you're seeing when you didn't even see something very obvious until I pointed it out to you? Okay. :rolleyes:

So, what are you saying? That He was looking for just one person, any person, to open the door of the church so that He would then come in to the church? How does that make sense?


you know, I don't even think you should be sarcastic. I agreed that I didn't see what you were saying, and when I did, I said so. That should be enough?
And no, that is not what I am saying. That DOESN't make sense. What does make sense is that HE is preached. That the gospel is preached, which it obviously hasn't been, or they would already be overcomers, whether they are the whole church, or just one person, for that matter. The whole context is ABOUT THE CHURCH...not about individuals...that is what I don't see where you are getting the just one man thing. You tell those who interpret literally not to interpret too literally, yet you seem to do it yourself when you think it fits what you believe. God Bless.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 09:40 PM
well, I at least see where you are coming from now, but still not why you came to the conclusion you did. Go back to the beginning of the chapter and see who God is speaking to...yes, He is speaking to any man...WITHIN the professing Church. The people are obviously not saved or they would already be overcomers...I think you would agree with that? Obviously. I don't think He would refer to believers as being "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked".


You also are not looking at the truth that God calls us. If He doesn't call us, we won't be saved.That's what the knocking is about.


The way you are interpreting this is that unless we as humans LET Jesus in, He can't come in.Yep. He's not looking for puppets and He's not looking to force anyone to believe in Him.


Jesus is God and He can do what He chooses to do. He may choose not to, but He IS able. Where did I say anything that would suggest that I thought otherwise?


Tell me, why do you think Jesus would stop right in the middle of letters to the churches and go to individual people's hearts?Why not? Let me show you other places where Jesus speaks to individuals in Revelation.

Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Notice here that Jesus singles out some individuals within the church of Smyrna who He allows to be tested by Satan so that He can see how faithful they are.

Rev 2
20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

He starts out speaking to the church in general but then points out what He will do to individuals if they don't repent and that He searches people's hearts and gives unto each individual according to their works.

Rev 3
3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Again, at first, Jesus has a message for the entire church in Sardis, but then He speaks to individuals by saying that the ones who have not defiled themselveswill walk with Him and the person who overcomes "shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels".

Rev 3
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Jesus is clearly referring to individuals here and saying that the ones who overcome will have the name of God and the name of the city of God, new Jerusalem, written upon them.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 09:43 PM
you know, I don't even think you should be sarcastic. I agreed that I didn't see what you were saying, and when I did, I said so. That should be enough?
And no, that is not what I am saying. That DOESN't make sense. What does make sense is that HE is preached. That the gospel is preached, which it obviously hasn't been, or they would already be overcomers, whether they are the whole church, or just one person, for that matter. The whole context is ABOUT THE CHURCH...not about individuals...that is what I don't see where you are getting the just one man thing. You tell those who interpret literally not to interpret too literally, yet you seem to do it yourself when you think it fits what you believe. God Bless.I don't see it as a literal door. When He says "I will come in to him" how does that turn into Him coming into a church? To say that everything He said only applies to the church as a whole and never to individuals is simply not true. You need to explain why "any man" refers corporately to the whole church rather than to any individual person. So far, you haven't done that.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 10:02 PM
I don't see it as a literal door. When He says "I will come in to him" how does that turn into Him coming into a church? To say that everything He said only applies to the church as a whole and never to individuals is simply not true. You need to explain why "any man" refers corporately to the whole church rather than to any individual person. So far, you haven't done that.


Because I didn't mean it that way. That would be a good reason. I believe He is talking to each individual, but the context is IN the professing Church. He is calling for them to Preach Him...to the church as a whole.
Think about what I said earliler. If Jesus came back right now...( I know He isn't, this is a hypothetical situation...) and decided to go visit the churches that profess Him, how many do you think would actually let Him in? That is what I believe the context of that passage to be. Nowhere in that passage does it say Jesus is knocking on the door of someone's heart. Show me that verse? He doesn't have to knock on the door of your heart. If you are saved, He called you already...He saved you already.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 10:03 PM
Obviously. I don't think He would refer to believers as being "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked".

That's what the knocking is about.

Yep. He's not looking for puppets and He's not looking to force anyone to believe in Him.

Where did I say anything that would suggest that I thought otherwise?

Why not? Let me show you other places where Jesus speaks to individuals in Revelation.

Rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Notice here that Jesus singles out some individuals within the church of Smyrna who He allows to be tested by Satan so that He can see how faithful they are.

Rev 2
20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

He starts out speaking to the church in general but then points out what He will do to individuals if they don't repent and that He searches people's hearts and gives unto each individual according to their works.

Rev 3
3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Again, at first, Jesus has a message for the entire church in Sardis, but then He speaks to individuals by saying that the ones who have not defiled themselveswill walk with Him and the person who overcomes "shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels".

Rev 3
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Jesus is clearly referring to individuals here and saying that the ones who overcome will have the name of God and the name of the city of God, new Jerusalem, written upon them.


Ok, point taken, but not the same thing, or in the same context.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 29th 2008, 12:33 AM
If I'm an honest person? Could you possibly be more offensive? Think about if I questioned whether you were an honest person. I believe everyone here is an honest person.

It was not offensive, but an assumption that you are honest. I guess that is the way we Brits speak.

I don't think that Jesus was being offensive, when He said "If you love me"


Yes, and to individuals within it.

You have completely missed the point and you are not addressing the fact that Rev 3:20-21 uses terms that speak of individuals. Does "any man" mean "any church"? Does "him who overcomes" mean "the church who overcomes"? Try to address the issue instead of going off on tangents.

So we are suppose to cut out all the written facts ("going off on tangent") so that we can then jump right into the unwritten traditions of man.

Do you spew your food up, before you have eaten it?

How can they be spewd out of His mouth, if (as you infer) they are not yet in Him?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 29th 2008, 01:30 AM
I don't see it as a literal door. When He says "I will come in to him" how does that turn into Him coming into a church? To say that everything He said only applies to the church as a whole and never to individuals is simply not true. You need to explain why "any man" refers corporately to the whole church rather than to any individual person. So far, you haven't done that.

John 8:7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

When Jesus said "Let him who is without sin" He said 'him' but He was still talking to them all.

"I will come in 'to' [G4314 pros] him"
The word 'pros' means, (toward, forward to, near to, nigh unto, by the side of, among)

[To] G4314 [pros]

pros
A strengthened form of G4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, that is, toward (with the genitive case the side of, that is, pertaining to; with the dative case by the side of, that is, near to; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, that is, whither or for which it is predicated): - about, according to, against, among, at, because of, before, between, ([where-]) by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), + together, to ([you]) -ward, unto, with (-in). In compounds it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

A few years ago, I started a small business for my living. I did what I thought was right in my own eyes. I did not submit all my ways and plans to Him regarding that business. He stood outside the door of my doing, because I did not invite Him in. After some time I got into some very serious problems (I still carry the scars of my foolishness) I had been rebuked and chastened, but today I have fellowship with Him.

BroRog
Oct 29th 2008, 04:20 AM
I have been following your discussion for the past few days concerning Jesus word to the Laodiceans. I haven't commented until now because I hadn't anything to contribute. But as I thought this through, I wonder if a third alternative is closer to what Jesus has in mind?

I noticed that his illustration of knocking on a door, coming into the house, and dining with the occupants is very close to his parable found in Luke 13. Only in that parable, the unfortunate are being kept out of the house. In other words, the Lord is standing in the house and some are knocking on the door wanting to get in.

And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" and He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

The Lord answers the question with an illustration, suggesting that few are being saved because the way to salvation is like a man who must enter through a narrow door. That is, it's possible but not easy, especially if you are carrying much baggage. :)

Then Jesus illustrates the concept again using a parable.

"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'"

In this parable, the crowd is pictured as knocking on a door in order to gain entrance. The head of the household does not let them enter since he does not know them. The crowd reminds the head of the house that they ate and drank in his presence and he taught in the streets where they lived.

The parable assumes that had the head of the household been friendly with the crowd, he would have let them in. The crowd assumed that eating and drinking with someone, and listening to them teach, is familiarity enough. But they were wrong. To hear Jesus teach is not the same thing as becoming his student to put his teachings into practice. To hear him say, "love your enemies" is not the same thing as actually loving our enemies.

The point is, the head of household will only allow his friends to enter the house.

"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."

Here the point of the parable immediately turns toward the final judgment. What happens to a person at the final judgment is determined in large part by the head of the house who will allow his friends to enter. Those who sit and dine with the patriarchs are those who did more than attend a Jesus lecture and party with him.

In the letter to the Laodiceans, Jesus is standing outside the door, asking to come into the house, which is the reverse of his parable in Luke. Nonetheless, I think the implications are the same. If the head of the household is going to let Jesus into the house, he will "know where he is from." I believe Jesus is making the same point that he made in Luke, which depends on the fact that a homeowner doesn't just let anybody into the house. He lets his friends enter. In order to gain entrance into the house, the homeowner must know you.

Why does Jesus reverse it? I think he changes the perspective because he is dealing with rich people. The rich are the ones who have the parties and invite dinner guests over for dinner. And so, Jesus is dealing with them where they live. He interacts with them at a place where they can understand his point.

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 09:31 AM
I have been following your discussion for the past few days concerning Jesus word to the Laodiceans. I haven't commented until now because I hadn't anything to contribute. But as I thought this through, I wonder if a third alternative is closer to what Jesus has in mind?

I noticed that his illustration of knocking on a door, coming into the house, and dining with the occupants is very close to his parable found in Luke 13. Only in that parable, the unfortunate are being kept out of the house. In other words, the Lord is standing in the house and some are knocking on the door wanting to get in.

And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" and He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

The Lord answers the question with an illustration, suggesting that few are being saved because the way to salvation is like a man who must enter through a narrow door. That is, it's possible but not easy, especially if you are carrying much baggage. :)

Then Jesus illustrates the concept again using a parable.

"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'"

In this parable, the crowd is pictured as knocking on a door in order to gain entrance. The head of the household does not let them enter since he does not know them. The crowd reminds the head of the house that they ate and drank in his presence and he taught in the streets where they lived.

The parable assumes that had the head of the household been friendly with the crowd, he would have let them in. The crowd assumed that eating and drinking with someone, and listening to them teach, is familiarity enough. But they were wrong. To hear Jesus teach is not the same thing as becoming his student to put his teachings into practice. To hear him say, "love your enemies" is not the same thing as actually loving our enemies.

The point is, the head of household will only allow his friends to enter the house.

"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."

Here the point of the parable immediately turns toward the final judgment. What happens to a person at the final judgment is determined in large part by the head of the house who will allow his friends to enter. Those who sit and dine with the patriarchs are those who did more than attend a Jesus lecture and party with him.

In the letter to the Laodiceans, Jesus is standing outside the door, asking to come into the house, which is the reverse of his parable in Luke. Nonetheless, I think the implications are the same. If the head of the household is going to let Jesus into the house, he will "know where he is from." I believe Jesus is making the same point that he made in Luke, which depends on the fact that a homeowner doesn't just let anybody into the house. He lets his friends enter. In order to gain entrance into the house, the homeowner must know you.

Why does Jesus reverse it? I think he changes the perspective because he is dealing with rich people. The rich are the ones who have the parties and invite dinner guests over for dinner. And so, Jesus is dealing with them where they live. He interacts with them at a place where they can understand his point.

That was a fascinating post, BroRog - really thought-provoking! Are you concluding that, whatever "Jesus" the Laodiceans seemed to want, the REAL Jesus was not only not their friend - but a stranger to them? Sobering stuff for all of us.....

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 10:02 AM
If you're not going to agree with me based on my previous posts then I guess you're just not going to agree with me. So be it. I've done all I can to show that He was speaking of an individual matter by pointing out the terms "any man", "him", "he", and "him that overcometh". I don't know what more I can do.

I think we do agree that He IS speaking to "any man" who will listen and respond from among the professing church at Laodicea. Please respond to post #115.


Do you think Jesus was asking them to open the literal door of their church building so that He could then walk in? He is clearly not speaking literally in that verse.

Yes - in fact there's a hint that this is PRECISELY what He does at church meetings here:-

The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. Rev 1:20 NKJV

“To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:" Rev 2:1 NKJV

Now each church was made up of individuals who lived in their own homes, right? So when Jesus says He is walking "in the midst of the seven golden lampstands", He means He is walking in the midst of their MEETINGS - when they gather together! But with Laodicea, things were so bad, He was left outside - He is asking to be invited in and all it takes for Him to come in is for ONE man or woman to open the door. He will then have fellowship with THEM, even though everyone else is still ignoring Him.

I think I can testify to an example of this in my own experience - I grew up in a completely dead and liberal Presbyterian church, where the minister's "sermon" was more like a Sunday newspaper editorial - or Alastair Cooke's Letter from America, if anyone remembers that radio show! When I was saved at 18, my eyes were opened to the "whitened sepulchre" that the place was - I was appalled to think that in all likelihood there NO Christians in the entire church! But a couple of years later, I was in our town's Christian bookshop and I overheard the two ladies chatting about a lady who had just been in, Miss Muir - they were saying what a lovely Christian lady she was and how she was always buying Christian books and gifts for others - I spoke with them about her and discovered that she really did know the LORD - she had been my Sunday School teacher when I was seven and had no doubt prayed for me for these past 11 years - I believe she was just such a person that had opened the door of the church I grew up in to Jesus and He answered her prayrs for me (even though I had to hear the gospel through another ministry) - I wanted to go and tell her how her prayers had been answered, but sadly she passed away shortly afterwards. However, even in death, her ministry went on - she had prepared something to be read out at her funeral and it was a meditation on the resurrection called "Has Easter Happened To You?" I just wonder what I'll learn from that dear sister in Christ when I meet her in Glory - how she prayed for me - how perhaps she may have heard later from the ladies in the shop that I had been saved - I always thought she was such a sweet lady as I was growing up - now I know WHY!


There is one other way of looking at this that I don't think I mentioned before.

John 14
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So, here we see Jesus speaking about Himself and the Father coming into a person and making their abode with Him and this happens in the person of the Comforter, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16).

Now, let's look at Rev 3:20 again.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Based on how this type of language is used elsewhere by Jesus Himself, how can He be speaking of anything here but coming into a person's heart or spirit and making His abode in them through the person of the Holy Spirit?

I agree that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith, but I don't think that it means that - it's not "come into him" but "come in to him" - one could say "come in at his invitation" or "come in as far as that man is concerned" - here's a typical example of how that happens in churches (as if I really need to say this!) - let's say someone is on door duty at a church and someone, say, who hasn't been there for ages arrives and engages the person who greets them in lengthy conversation, asking how they are, finding out what's been happening, bringing the person up to date with what they've been doing since they moved to another part of the country - then the service is about to start, so the person takes a seat at the back. At the end of the service, they have to hurry away quickly to meet eg family members for lunch - but they shake hands with the person at the door and say how good it was to renew fellowship with them. Later, that person tells others "Did you see who was at church today?" They all say "no" because they were caught up in talking to others and never noticed them, even though they were chatting to the person on the door for quite a while - but the person who opened the door to the long lost visitor had fellowship with the visitor and he with them! In effect, the visitor "came in to him" - but not others in the church, who were too preoccupied to notice him standing chatting to the person at the door to come up and say "Hi".

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 10:04 AM
Hrms, I've not pondered this too deeply, but I do see a possible point. I was raised in a reformed Presbyterian church, baptized as an infant, then was saved in Feb of 1990. I continued to live under that teaching until I got to College, wherein I had to search for the church where the Lord wanted me. Over time he showed me one thing after another that I had once taken by faith and believed as correct doctrine to be incorrect by scripture.

My entire way of thinking about how things worked changed, and God showed me those things through study. One by one tearing down the walls that I had held to in ignorance. Now was it sin to believe those things which were wrong? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that God keeps showing me more and more from his scripture, and as he does so my understanding of the bible grows and changes. Some of that is natural growth, and some of it is correcting growth. But in all cases (for example with baptism), I turned from what I had my mind once believed, to that which I now believe is the truth. I turned from error, and to truth.

I don't know whether it is a sin to be in error like that or not, it certainly could be, all I know is that God has guided me to what I believe is now correct in these matters.

Can I ask - apart from infant baptism, what else did you consider was wrong about the church's teaching? Was it PCA or OPC?

Veretax
Oct 29th 2008, 11:08 AM
...

You know, I think I agree with you on this. It could also possibly mean, that Christ is doing what he did to Soddom so to speak. He is looking for anyone to stand up and say I'm a believer, I am walking with Christ, and it could be that if that one person will just stand up and be accountable that the entire congregation could be restored to fellowship. Now that may be stretching the meaning of this passage, but I do believe that God calls for each of us to be accountable. So hrms.

Veretax
Oct 29th 2008, 11:29 AM
Can I ask - apart from infant baptism, what else did you consider was wrong about the church's teaching? Was it PCA or OPC?


I don't wish to cast stones at the PCA, because I learned a great deal as a young child in Christ there. I Learned a great appreciation for the word if I didn't really delve into it like I should have right at that time. The word is preached there. Now. There are two PCA churches that I have had significant contact with. One is the one my parents currently go to, and the other is the one I grew up in.

I saw the Lord do some amazing things as young Christian through that PCA church. I came to a faith in Christ, struggled for a year before being given entance to the youth group, and then all of a sudden it was like the youth group got hot for the Lord. I don't know how else to explain it, a lot of how I am is as a result of what I learned and saw there growing up. It was a profound influence on me.

Nevertheless, when I became an adult, was away from my parents at College, it was time to test what I believed. See I had a problem when i first reached college. I was sifted and tested by many who were not saved. I was even chastized by some that I had no right to tell them anything about what God said in the bible. It really broke me down at one point. But God used it for good, it drove me into the word. Now, yes I disagree with infant baptism now, but that was in my mind not something I had even explored until 97 or 98. I had taken a number of things on faith, read up on why our church believed it to be true, even had a few verses ready should someone ask me, but I avoided the subject cause to me it seemed not to matter compared to the other things I was learning that first Semester at college.

I went from a time where I was still under my parents roof a time where I believed in Christ, and claimed to believe a lot of other things, but truthfully, many of them I accepted on faith that they were all being taught correctly. That is not to say I fault that church, I don't, but when I was a babe in Christ I held on dearly to that which I knew. I had to, because I was tormented in Middle School and High School. Christ is the one person who helped me endure through it. I had few friends, and the ones I did had didn't go to my school or live din other towns, so it was a dilemma for me.

Now, It was a church that preached from a calvinist view point. I used to be better versed in that than I am now (its bene some 10-12 years now). However, I found as I studied the word for myself, that there were a number of things that did not line up. I even asked my pastor of that church if he had any literature I could borrow to read up on some things because on a number of issues, I was beginning to question what God really said.

One of the big ones was Predestination. I don't believe it was taught quite right when I was younger. I believe that those God knew would come where predestined for a particular use by him, to furthre his Kingdom, which is different than the predestination I was brought up under, that God essentially predestined and chose everyone who would be saved.

I never really understood why one friend's parent used to call us the "frozen chosen" until those days. But it became of interest when I realized that the attitude that had grown in some, and in particularly at the church my parents now go through had become one that was contrary to the Great Commission.

I don't know when this happened, there was a time they used to even have evangelists in the church. There was a time when we reached out and brought new folks into the fold so to speak, but at some point, the church got content, and this attitude sprang up and was even in me for a time, that those who God has chosen are going to be saved, its for ordained, so why should I be worried about how to witness or drawing people to Christ.

It was those two things that drew me away from that reformed mindset. I could not believe that Christ would charge us in the gospels to make disciples, and yet allow us to sit on our stumps only doing that when they darkened the door of our building.

Now I can't say whether that attitude has further fermented in either church. The final straw for me came at the church my parents currently intended. Two Sundays in a row, once in the adult, once in the "teen group". Kids talking about cheerleading practice instead of trying to learn from the Word of God, being a distraction in class, and then the next week in the adult class, people clearly bringing ideas into a discussion, without any real biblical basis, just 'feeling'. I didn't relish what I felt compelled to do at that point. The pastor preached a solid sermon, but it was time for me to find preaching that was feeding me, because I was no longer getting the bread that I needed from that church. Now again, that's my parent's church, and when we moved after I graduated HS, I went there for a time, but something had changed. That's the Church my mom grew up in, that my grandfather was saved in, yet something had changed.

My mom and dad continue to go out of habbit, but i felt compelled to get out of a church that was not challenging me to walk closer with Christ, and began attending a non denominational church in the town we lived in when i was home from college.

Now I have had some experience with the OPC as well, but my main problem with them wasn't so much doctrine, as I just couldn't seem to fit in. I don't know that it was a doctrinal thing, or a personality difference, so while at College I mostly attended and finally joined a independent, fundamental baptist church.

I'm not sure if that answers your questions, I've not been back to the church I grew up in since just after my Grandmother passed away, which was like 4 years ago, and I don't worry too much about it. I feel what I believe is based on where God leads me in scripture, and that while I don't disagree with my family as much as it may sound, I am now different then what I was. Again, hard to really quantify at this point as its been a decade since I essentially quit calling myself a Calvinist, although I still think the organization of the Presbyterian church as far as how localy its organized is better.

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 12:03 PM
I don't wish to cast stones at the PCA, because I learned a great deal as a young child in Christ there. I Learned a great appreciation for the word if I didn't really delve into it like I should have right at that time. The word is preached there. Now. There are two PCA churches that I have had significant contact with. One is the one my parents currently go to, and the other is the one I grew up in.

I saw the Lord do some amazing things as young Christian through that PCA church. I came to a faith in Christ, struggled for a year before being given entance to the youth group, and then all of a sudden it was like the youth group got hot for the Lord. I don't know how else to explain it, a lot of how I am is as a result of what I learned and saw there growing up. It was a profound influence on me.

Nevertheless, when I became an adult, was away from my parents at College, it was time to test what I believed. See I had a problem when i first reached college. I was sifted and tested by many who were not saved. I was even chastized by some that I had no right to tell them anything about what God said in the bible. It really broke me down at one point. But God used it for good, it drove me into the word. Now, yes I disagree with infant baptism now, but that was in my mind not something I had even explored until 97 or 98. I had taken a number of things on faith, read up on why our church believed it to be true, even had a few verses ready should someone ask me, but I avoided the subject cause to me it seemed not to matter compared to the other things I was learning that first Semester at college.

I went from a time where I was still under my parents roof a time where I believed in Christ, and claimed to believe a lot of other things, but truthfully, many of them I accepted on faith that they were all being taught correctly. That is not to say I fault that church, I don't, but when I was a babe in Christ I held on dearly to that which I knew. I had to, because I was tormented in Middle School and High School. Christ is the one person who helped me endure through it. I had few friends, and the ones I did had didn't go to my school or live din other towns, so it was a dilemma for me.

Now, It was a church that preached from a calvinist view point. I used to be better versed in that than I am now (its bene some 10-12 years now). However, I found as I studied the word for myself, that there were a number of things that did not line up. I even asked my pastor of that church if he had any literature I could borrow to read up on some things because on a number of issues, I was beginning to question what God really said.

One of the big ones was Predestination. I don't believe it was taught quite right when I was younger. I believe that those God knew would come where predestined for a particular use by him, to furthre his Kingdom, which is different than the predestination I was brought up under, that God essentially predestined and chose everyone who would be saved.

I never really understood why one friend's parent used to call us the "frozen chosen" until those days. But it became of interest when I realized that the attitude that had grown in some, and in particularly at the church my parents now go through had become one that was contrary to the Great Commission.

I don't know when this happened, there was a time they used to even have evangelists in the church. There was a time when we reached out and brought new folks into the fold so to speak, but at some point, the church got content, and this attitude sprang up and was even in me for a time, that those who God has chosen are going to be saved, its for ordained, so why should I be worried about how to witness or drawing people to Christ.

It was those two things that drew me away from that reformed mindset. I could not believe that Christ would charge us in the gospels to make disciples, and yet allow us to sit on our stumps only doing that when they darkened the door of our building.

Now I can't say whether that attitude has further fermented in either church. The final straw for me came at the church my parents currently intended. Two Sundays in a row, once in the adult, once in the "teen group". Kids talking about cheerleading practice instead of trying to learn from the Word of God, being a distraction in class, and then the next week in the adult class, people clearly bringing ideas into a discussion, without any real biblical basis, just 'feeling'. I didn't relish what I felt compelled to do at that point. The pastor preached a solid sermon, but it was time for me to find preaching that was feeding me, because I was no longer getting the bread that I needed from that church. Now again, that's my parent's church, and when we moved after I graduated HS, I went there for a time, but something had changed. That's the Church my mom grew up in, that my grandfather was saved in, yet something had changed.

My mom and dad continue to go out of habbit, but i felt compelled to get out of a church that was not challenging me to walk closer with Christ, and began attending a non denominational church in the town we lived in when i was home from college.

Now I have had some experience with the OPC as well, but my main problem with them wasn't so much doctrine, as I just couldn't seem to fit in. I don't know that it was a doctrinal thing, or a personality difference, so while at College I mostly attended and finally joined a independent, fundamental baptist church.

I'm not sure if that answers your questions, I've not been back to the church I grew up in since just after my Grandmother passed away, which was like 4 years ago, and I don't worry too much about it. I feel what I believe is based on where God leads me in scripture, and that while I don't disagree with my family as much as it may sound, I am now different then what I was. Again, hard to really quantify at this point as its been a decade since I essentially quit calling myself a Calvinist, although I still think the organization of the Presbyterian church as far as how localy its organized is better.

Thanks for sharing that, Veretax - while I agree with you that if the church is focussing on "cheerleading practice" rather than the Word of God, something is fundamentally wrong. I spent the early years of my Christian life in a Reformed Presbyterian church (v like the PCA) and think I might find it hard to go back to one, but for different reasons from yours.

The thing is that you seemed to have this one issue of predestination - but it was more how folks in the church wrongly applied it rather than it being actively taught in a distorted way - right? I would take issue with your contention that predestination of individuals is not taught in the bible - I'll not cite Rom 8 or 9 or Eph1 but three less well-known passages that I believe make it abundantly clear and help us interpret other passages correctly. I should say that predestination was the single biggest stumbling block to my becoming a Christian - but I became one by realsisng the other side of the coin - my responsibility to come to Christ!

Here are those verses:-

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation...
2 Thess 2:13a NKJV

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 NKJV

Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You,
That he may dwell in Your courts....

Ps 65:4a NKJV

I don't want to derail this thread so I'll give myself a big

:OFFT:

and just say that, with these centuries-old arguments, I think we have to be very careful of speakingof a change of doctrinal position as "repentance" and of what we once believed as "error" - I'll admit that certain forms of Calvinism (eg Hypercalvinism, whihc may be what some folks in your church believe in practice if they're not evangelising) are indeed error - but so are various forms of Arminianism!

If you want to see a couple of Calvinists who are as passionate about evangelism and preaching to the lost as you could get, check out Paul Washer and John Piper. I believe they have the right balance, while several in the Reformed "camp" don't.....

PS One final thought - think of many of the great evangelists of yesteryear - Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon - they were all Calvinists! : )

Veretax
Oct 29th 2008, 01:12 PM
Thanks for sharing that, Veretax - while I agree with you that if the church is focussing on "cheerleading practice" rather than the Word of God, something is fundamentally wrong. I spent the early years of my Christian life in a Reformed Presbyterian church (v like the PCA) and think I might find it hard to go back to one, but for different reasons from yours.

The thing is that you seemed to have this one issue of predestination - but it was more how folks in the church wrongly applied it rather than it being actively taught in a distorted way - right? I would take issue with your contention that predestination of individuals is not taught in the bible - I'll not cite Rom 8 or 9 or Eph1 but three less well-known passages that I believe make it abundantly clear and help us interpret other passages correctly. I should say that predestination was the single biggest stumbling block to my becoming a Christian - but I became one by realsisng the other side of the coin - my responsibility to come to Christ!



Yes, your assertian is correct, I did find that how some of the teachings were applied seemed to be wrong, and it caused me as a young Christian to stumble into the same error and mistakes. I don't fault the Pastor for that, but I had to make a decission, one that was not easy for me having been in PCA churches since I was born, to find another body of believers to fellowship with. Thankfully I did, and it has spurred me to grow even more than my own private devotions alone did.

Well my thinking is more complete now than it was then. I've recently come back towards that line of thinking in some ways, but I always emphasize that Christ saved us for a purpose, not just that we'd be saved. And you are probably correct, I saw the fruits of how this was being lived in the lives of many, and as I grew in Christ, I took exception to it.

Its not so much even now that I'm Calvinist or not. I'm certainly not an Arminiain, and even my father who still attends a PCA church tells me, that He's not a 'full calvinist' if you will, but Calvin had a lot of Good things to say he says. (this being my father who I don't agree with on a lot but some things we still agree.)

My belief concerning salvation is that Christ's debt on the cross paid for all sin. he holds the bonds for those debts, and he has a promise, I'll forgive that debt, if you just trust me when i say I'll forgive it. (that's really a way too watered down way to say it I realize), so to me, when God looks at people, he looks at, do they believe in Christ or not. If they don't believe in Christ, then the line is already drawn. There is now only one thing we must do to be saved, and that is believe on the Lord Jesus christ, and his sacrifice on the cross as having paid that sin debt.




Here are those verses:-

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation...
2 Thess 2:13a NKJV

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 NKJV

Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You,
That he may dwell in Your courts....

Ps 65:4a NKJV



Thank you for sharing those verses with me. I have a better understanding now of things. One of the issues I've been wrestling with recently, is just how much free will of man is indeed free choice, given that we are each set in our place in time in the midst of certain circumstances and influences. I'm an engineering by trade, so to me all of Creation has a Design. I'm also a programmer, and in every program I work on, there is a flow. If this then this. There is a Cause and effect. The problem is, that God is the Beginning and the End, he is the ultimate Cause. This is an idea that I have been pondering these last few weeks. All I can say is, that I agree, Many are called, few are chosen as that verse says. I believe that Christ died for the sins of all, and yet he also died for us as individuals. His death is only sufficient for those who believe. Its a bit a of a Paradox. I believe man has to believe, yet I also believe that those who are called may be predisposed to believe because of how God has directed their lives. Its a quandry that I've really not resolved from a Theological stand point.

I believe man has to have free will for God to be Glorified at our coming to him for salvation, yet I also believe he has to empower us to do it..





I don't want to derail this thread so I'll give myself a big

:OFFT:

and just say that, with these centuries-old arguments, I think we have to be very careful of speakingof a change of doctrinal position as "repentance" and of what we once believed as "error" - I'll admit that certain forms of Calvinism (eg Hypercalvinism, whihc may be what some folks in your church believe in practice if they're not evangelising) are indeed error - but so are various forms of Arminianism!



Your right, I don't view what I believed then as being sin. I believed I was wrong and in error, and that God led me down the path he wanted me to go, but by the same token, I don't see it as Sin now, its difficult to explain.




If you want to see a couple of Calvinists who are as passionate about evangelism and preaching to the lost as you could get, check out Paul Washer and John Piper. I believe they have the right balance, while several in the Reformed "camp" don't.....

PS One final thought - think of many of the great evangelists of yesteryear - Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon - they were all Calvinists! : )

Strange you should mention John Piper, my campus pastor, under whom, many of these things began to change in my life, attends his church, and recently pointed me to a sermon of his on this, so yeah. I don't claim a title for my beliefs. I try to learn from the bible and stick to it as closely as I can. I didn't realize that Spurgeoin was a Calvinist though, that's interesting.

In any case, my main issues probably stem from what I've identified as a lack of solid discipleship right after I was saved. I was saved, I made it known to many, but the teaching of Sunday School alone, didn't gird me to really get in the word like I should. It took the Trials my Freshman year at College to drive me to it, so I by no means have it all figured out even 12 years later. I find that as I study an grow that scripture has a more complete context, and in regards to predestination. I'm willing to admit, that where I pereceived a flaw in emphasis, may be true, and what was being taught in many cases may be true as well, that its possible that my understanding just couldn't see it in those days because I had been what I call a "Scout Manual" Christian for those first 6 years of my Christian walk. by that I mean, i read it, but was not a Berean. I read it specifically for answers to questions. I didn't have any guidance from my parents during that time it seems, and I strove to live the walk, and read a few books, I was still very much a babe in Christ. And this admittedly is even knowing that before I was saved I knew a good bit of scripture, knew it in my head, but had not faith. it wasn't till that seed was planted in my heart, that my eyes were opened that I came to Christ. So perhaps in this conversation you are right, God does the saving, God opens the eyes and ears, the soil of the heart must be right for us to receive it and grow.

Boy. that's a mouth full. Sorry for getting on a tangent. It seems weird that I look back on those days when I was so upset as I was learning that I essentially divorced myself from what I once held to be (reformed faith presby), yet I look back on it now, and in many areas I realize while I've grown away from what I once held in many areas, it may not be as far that I've traveled as it has felt. If that makes any sense.

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 01:17 PM
I agree that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith, but I don't think that it means that - it's not "come into him" but "come in to him"What's the difference? He's still talking about coming in to HIM ("any man") and not in to the church as a whole.


You know, I think I agree with you on this. It could also possibly mean, that Christ is doing what he did to Soddom so to speak. He is looking for anyone to stand up and say I'm a believer, I am walking with Christ, and it could be that if that one person will just stand up and be accountable that the entire congregation could be restored to fellowship. Now that may be stretching the meaning of this passage, but I do believe that God calls for each of us to be accountable. So hrms.Does Jesus say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to his church" or does He say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him"? How does the word "him" turn into "his church"?

Veretax
Oct 29th 2008, 01:26 PM
What's the difference? He's still talking about coming in to HIM ("any man") and not in to the church as a whole.

Does Jesus say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to his church" or does He say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him"? How does the word "him" turn into "his church"?

Unless i deleted that part, I thought I said, that while I can see that as a possibility that the Lord my be calling someone to stand up and be counted so to speak, but that I believed that might be a stretch of that particular passage? I'm inclined to agree with you. Though, sorry for the confusion, i seem to be on a tangent here this morning.

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 01:51 PM
What's the difference? He's still talking about coming in to HIM ("any man") and not in to the church as a whole.

The context IS the Church, as was pointed out earlier. He is talking to the Churches...


Does Jesus say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to his church" or does He say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him"? How does the word "him" turn into "his church"?

Because He is talking to those IN the Church...not those inside themselves. The Church is the Body, Jesus is the Head.
It isn't "His" Church or he wouldn't be knocking on the door, He would already be there, wouldn't He? I have to say I've never even thought of interpreting this passage the way that you do. It changes the whole meaning of the passage and hides the apostasy of most of the churches themselves. Jesus addressed the churches because it was important to do so, and it was important to listen to what He was saying. He was telling of the things that they were doing wrong...warning them, and telling them of the things that they were doing right...commending them...a way to know what is right and wrong. He WAS addressing each and every person insude that church, yes, but He was talking to the whole church, not just one man...or woman, for that matter.
In order for truth to overcome, truth has to be told. I think Jesus is calling them to preach the truth, and not the lies that had been being preached. The church was atrocious, and not HIS, but He wanted it to be so or He wouldn't waste His time talking to them. There is Hope...IN HIM. :)

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 02:04 PM
What's the difference? He's still talking about coming in to HIM ("any man") and not in to the church as a whole.

Fair point - but see below.


Does Jesus say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to his church" or does He say "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him"? How does the word "him" turn into "his church"?

Fair point again - but if he is IN the church meetings, then by the same token, Christ will ALSO be in those meetings - through his being there!

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 02:21 PM
Unless i deleted that part, I thought I said, that while I can see that as a possibility that the Lord my be calling someone to stand up and be counted so to speak, but that I believed that might be a stretch of that particular passage? I'm inclined to agree with you. Though, sorry for the confusion, i seem to be on a tangent here this morning.No problem. I did see that part but you also said "I think I agree with you on this" so I wasn't sure what position you were taking.

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 02:24 PM
Fair point - but see below.



Fair point again - but if he is IN the church meetings, then by the same token, Christ will ALSO be in those meetings - through his being there!Okay, but I don't think that's really what that verse is about. It's pretty obvious at this point that we're going to have to just agree to disagree on this.

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 02:32 PM
Because He is talking to those IN the Church...not those inside themselves. The Church is the Body, Jesus is the Head.
It isn't "His" Church or he wouldn't be knocking on the door, He would already be there, wouldn't He? I have to say I've never even thought of interpreting this passage the way that you do. It changes the whole meaning of the passage and hides the apostasy of most of the churches themselves. Jesus addressed the churches because it was important to do so, and it was important to listen to what He was saying. He was telling of the things that they were doing wrong...warning them, and telling them of the things that they were doing right...commending them...a way to know what is right and wrong. He WAS addressing each and every person insude that church, yes, but He was talking to the whole church, not just one man...or woman, for that matter.

In order for truth to overcome, truth has to be told. I think Jesus is calling them to preach the truth, and not the lies that had been being preached. The church was atrocious, and not HIS, but He wanted it to be so or He wouldn't waste His time talking to them. There is Hope...IN HIM. :)Thanks for your input, but I don't really see anything you said here as really specifically addressing my points. I don't feel like going in circles on this, so we'll have to just agree to disagree.

BroRog
Oct 29th 2008, 02:33 PM
That was a fascinating post, BroRog - really thought-provoking! Are you concluding that, whatever "Jesus" the Laodiceans seemed to want, the REAL Jesus was not only not their friend - but a stranger to them? Sobering stuff for all of us.....

Yes, that's what I was thinking. The offer is still there, obviously. They (and our generation too) still have a chance to discover the real Jesus.

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 02:34 PM
Thanks for your input, but I don't really see anything you said here as really specifically addressing my points. I don't feel like going in circles on this, so we'll have to just agree to disagree.


yeah, I agree with you. I did address your points, but you are so busy defending them that you aren't seeing what I am getting at. :) :hug: God Bless.

Firstfruits
Oct 29th 2008, 03:34 PM
To be very close.



It could be a "door of opportunity" - ie that the gospel was having an effect upon the Gentiles - they too were responding by faith.



Christ is the judge - but "standing at the door" is a proverbial phrase, like sin "crouching at the door" - ie very close.

I still don't see any verses that give the slightest suggestion that Jesus knocks at the door of our hearts, waiting for us to open them.

Here's a point - do you believe that the human heart only has a "handle" on the inside? That only we can open it, no matter how hard or how long Jesus knocks?

Sorry for replying with a question.

How does Gods love enter our hearts?

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Gal 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Eph 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

How does Jesus enter our heart?

It is by faith, so it does not need a handle, unless you say that faith is the handle.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 03:41 PM
yeah, I agree with you. I did address your points, but you are so busy defending them that you aren't seeing what I am getting at. :) :hug: God Bless.Of course, I could say the same towards you. And, of course, saying things like that is not very fruitful or respectful. Thanks for the discussion.

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 03:50 PM
It is by faith, so it does not need a handle, unless you say that faith is the handle.



Ephesians 2:7-10



7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I like the way you say this...sort of...:) Faith is also a Gift of God. It isn't something we just "have" or "don't have" it is given us by God.

Firstfruits
Oct 29th 2008, 03:55 PM
Ephesians 2:7-10



7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I like the way you say this...sort of...:) Faith is also a Gift of God. It isn't something we just "have" or "don't have" it is given us by God.

Thank you,

God bless you!

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 03:57 PM
Of course, I could say the same towards you. And, of course, saying things like that is not very fruitful or respectful. Thanks for the discussion.


LOL. No, you are correct, they aren't. But, I wasn't trying to be unfruitful, so if I have offended you, I apologize. :)
The whole point that you were making is that Jesus is knocking on the door of someone's heart. The whole point I was making is that He is knocking on the door of the Church. That is the context it is written in.
In your p.o.v., the passage is speaking to one man, in my p.o.v., the passage is speaking to that particular "church" as a whole, through each person...If you like, as each person is part of the body, etc. etc. Jesus did not know them, for He was knocking. They did not know Him, either. He would be inside if they knew each other and He was not.
God Bless and thank you also for the discussion, as unfruitful as it may have been...;)

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 04:11 PM
LOL. No, you are correct, they aren't. But, I wasn't trying to be unfruitful, so if I have offended you, I apologize. :)
The whole point that you were making is that Jesus is knocking on the door of someone's heart. The whole point I was making is that He is knocking on the door of the Church. That is the context it is written in. And I disagree with that.


In your p.o.v., the passage is speaking to one man,No, I have repeatedly pointed out that the passage is speaking to "any man".


in my p.o.v., the passage is speaking to that particular "church" as a whole, through each person...If you like, as each person is part of the body, etc. etc. Jesus did not know them, for He was knocking. They did not know Him, either. He would be inside if they knew each other and He was not.
God Bless and thank you also for the discussion, as unfruitful as it may have been...;)How could it be that by only one person opening the door Jesus would come in to the entire church? Or are you saying all of them would need to open the door at the same time in order for Him to come in? Neither scenario makes sense to me.

You didn't ever answer the question as to how the phrase "come in to him" turns into "come in to his church". In my view, you are changing the text in order to suit your own doctrine.

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 04:24 PM
And I disagree with that.

No, I have repeatedly pointed out that the passage is speaking to "any man".

How could it be that by only one person opening the door Jesus would come in to the entire church? Or are you saying all of them would need to open the door at the same time in order for Him to come in? Neither scenario makes sense to me.

You didn't ever answer the question as to how the phrase "come in to him" turns into "come in to his church". In my view, you are changing the text in order to suit your own doctrine.

The Church is the Body Of Christ, I think I said this, that was my answer. We are the Body, He is the head. Christ is appealing for them to hear the truth, not the apostasy they know. The Church IS the Context.




14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 05:44 PM
The Church is the Body Of Christ, I think I said this, that was my answer. We are the Body, He is the head. Christ is appealing for them to hear the truth, not the apostasy they know. The Church IS the Context.




14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.Are there not individuals within the churches? When Jesus says "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him" do you see it as no different than Him saying "if any person hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to that person's church"?

In verse 21, when He says "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne" is He speaking about an entire church overcoming or about any individual who overcomes?

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 07:34 PM
Are there not individuals within the churches? When Jesus says "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him" do you see it as no different than Him saying "if any person hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to that person's church"?

In verse 21, when He says "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne" is He speaking about an entire church overcoming or about any individual who overcomes?
He is speaking about an individual, but that individual is in the professing church....:)

Firstfruits
Oct 29th 2008, 08:02 PM
He is speaking about an individual, but that individual is in the professing church....:)

If one individual in the church is saved does it make the whole church saved, if those in the church do not accept the truth, or does it require each individual in that church to repent? meaning that just as Jesus has come to the world or called all to repentance as he has done there is an individual requirement.

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 29th 2008, 09:13 PM
He is speaking about an individual, but that individual is in the professing church....:)But not all the people in the churches were saved. For example:

Rev 2
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Also, I tend to think that the lukewarm people in the church of Laodicea who Jesus said He was going to spew out of His mouth and that He describes as "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" were not saved. It's a bit hard to imagine Him describing saved people in those terms. Yet He invites "anyone" among those very people to open the door and if someone does He promises to come in to any person who does so.

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 11:20 PM
Sorry for replying with a question.

How does Gods love enter our hearts?

2 Cor 3:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=47&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

By the Spirit! Amen!


Gal 4:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ditto! Amen!


Eph 3:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=49&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

How does Jesus enter our heart?

It is by faith, so it does not need a handle, unless you say that faith is the handle.

But which comes first?!?! Believe it or not, I would say "Both!" The point I was trying to make was that those who see Rev 3:20 speaking of Jesus standing at the door of our hearts, knocking, usually go on to adapt the Holman Hunt image and say "And He can't come in unless you open your heart - the handle is only on the inside of your heart" - is that what you believe?

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 11:54 PM
But which comes first?!?! Believe it or not, I would say "Both!" The point I was trying to make was that those who see Rev 3:20 speaking of Jesus standing at the door of our hearts, knocking, usually go on to adapt the Holman Hunt image and say "And He can't come in unless you open your heart - the handle is only on the inside of your heart" - is that what you believe?


Exactly my concern...Thank you. :)

jesuslover1968
Oct 29th 2008, 11:58 PM
But not all the people in the churches were saved. For example:

Rev 2
14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Also, I tend to think that the lukewarm people in the church of Laodicea who Jesus said He was going to spew out of His mouth and that He describes as "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" were not saved. It's a bit hard to imagine Him describing saved people in those terms. Yet He invites "anyone" among those very people to open the door and if someone does He promises to come in to any person who does so.

Yes!! He invites them because they are NOT saved, even though they are in the professing Church. Jesus could never spew out real Christians, for they are a part of Him. The point of the passage in this regard is that just because someone calls themself a church doesn't mean that they are Jesus' Church. He DOES offer any person the invitation, but that invitation is not limited to just one person. God Bless.

Firstfruits
Oct 30th 2008, 02:11 PM
By the Spirit! Amen!



Ditto! Amen!



But which comes first?!?! Believe it or not, I would say "Both!" The point I was trying to make was that those who see Rev 3:20 speaking of Jesus standing at the door of our hearts, knocking, usually go on to adapt the Holman Hunt image and say "And He can't come in unless you open your heart - the handle is only on the inside of your heart" - is that what you believe?

We have to be willing to receive Jesus into our hearts.

Mt 10:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Mt 13:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Jn 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jn 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jn 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

This tells us that we have to believe to receive.

Firstfruits

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 02:41 PM
But which comes first?!?! Believe it or not, I would say "Both!" The point I was trying to make was that those who see Rev 3:20 speaking of Jesus standing at the door of our hearts, knocking, usually go on to adapt the Holman Hunt image and say "And He can't come in unless you open your heart - the handle is only on the inside of your heart" - is that what you believe?This is the order:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 02:42 PM
Yes!! He invites them because they are NOT saved, even though they are in the professing Church. Jesus could never spew out real Christians, for they are a part of Him. The point of the passage in this regard is that just because someone calls themself a church doesn't mean that they are Jesus' Church. He DOES offer any person the invitation, but that invitation is not limited to just one person. God Bless.Where did I say the invitation was limited to just one person? My whole point is that I believe Jesus knocks on the door of everyone's hearts, but people are required to open the door of their hearts to Him by repenting of their sins and putting their faith and trust in Him.

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 02:50 PM
We have to be willing to receive Jesus into our hearts.

Mt 10:40 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=10&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Mt 13:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Jn 1:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jn 1:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jn 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

This tells us that we have to believe to receive.

FirstfruitsThat word "receiveth" means to accept and embrace. That is a choice that people have to make, whether to accept and embrace Christ and the gospel by putting one's faith and trust in Him or to reject the gospel and refuse to put one's faith and trust in Him.

Here is what happens when someone does not receive (accept and embrace) Him:

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Do these people perish because they had no ability to receive (accept and embrace) the love of the truth (Christ and His gospel)? No. It is their choice. This passage implies that they would have been saved had they not rejected the truth.

Firstfruits
Oct 30th 2008, 04:02 PM
That word "receiveth" means to accept and embrace. That is a choice that people have to make, whether to accept and embrace Christ and the gospel by putting one's faith and trust in Him or to reject the gospel and refuse to put one's faith and trust in Him.

Here is what happens when someone does not receive (accept and embrace) Him:

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Do these people perish because they had no ability to receive (accept and embrace) the love of the truth (Christ and His gospel)? No. It is their choice. This passage implies that they would have been saved had they not rejected the truth.

I agree,

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Oct 31st 2008, 02:14 PM
Where did I say the invitation was limited to just one person? My whole point is that I believe Jesus knocks on the door of everyone's hearts, but people are required to open the door of their hearts to Him by repenting of their sins and putting their faith and trust in Him.


I have to disagree. People could NOT open their hearts of their own accord or it would be works based salvation. Only God can open our hearts.

John146
Oct 31st 2008, 03:32 PM
I have to disagree. People could NOT open their hearts of their own accord or it would be works based salvation. Only God can open our hearts.Where does scripture teach this? Do you believe people can harden their own hearts and close their own eyes to the truth? If so, why can't they also open their hearts and eyes to the truth?

jesuslover1968
Oct 31st 2008, 05:43 PM
Where does scripture teach this? Do you believe people can harden their own hearts and close their own eyes to the truth? If so, why can't they also open their hearts and eyes to the truth?


Is it just people that harden their hearts, or does God harden their hearts so that they follow their own lusts?
satan can blind the eyes, and God has blinded the eyes...
If you want scripture, give me a few. Going to look them up. :)

jesuslover1968
Oct 31st 2008, 06:06 PM
Read Exodus, and how the process began of Pharoah hardening his heart and how God truly hardened his heart.

Read in Isaiah 63:16-17




16Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. 17O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

John 12:40

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Hebrews 3:13
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


Now I realize that there are many many verses that talk about how one person or another hardened their hearts against God, and they did. But the continued hardening caused God to harden them permanently.

Acts 2:39
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Romans 10:13-15
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

John146
Oct 31st 2008, 07:46 PM
Is it just people that harden their hearts, or does God harden their hearts so that they follow their own lusts?
satan can blind the eyes, and God has blinded the eyes...
If you want scripture, give me a few. Going to look them up. :)People harden their own hearts before God ever does. It is because people continually harden their hearts towards God that God further hardens them and gives them over to their wickedness. You can see this concept in Romans 1:18-32, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 and Matthew 13:15, among others.

John146
Oct 31st 2008, 07:49 PM
Read Exodus, and how the process began of Pharoah hardening his heart and how God truly hardened his heart.

Read in Isaiah 63:16-17




16Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. 17O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

John 12:40

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Hebrews 3:13
13But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


Now I realize that there are many many verses that talk about how one person or another hardened their hearts against God, and they did. But the continued hardening caused God to harden them permanently.So, who is responsible for their hearts being hardened against God in the first place?

9Marksfan
Oct 31st 2008, 08:00 PM
Where does scripture teach this?

Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14 NKJV

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Ezek 36:26 NKJV

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Jn 3:3 NKJV

This means "perceive/understand the things of God's kingdom" - it is equivalent to illumination by the Spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5 NKJV

We enter the kingdom of God and become His subjects NOW. NEITHER of these verses is speaking of Heaven or the new heavens and new earth.

And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” Jn 6:65 NKJV

God MUST act first in renewing our hearts - or we would never seek after Him:-

There is NONE righteous, NO, NOT ONE; NONE who understands; there is NONE who seeks after God. Rom 3:10b-11 NKJV


Do you believe people can harden their own hearts and close their own eyes to the truth?

I'll let jesuslover1968 answer from his/her perspective, but from mine - yes.


If so, why can't they also open their hearts and eyes to the truth?

Because we love darkness rather than light and are dead in trespasses and sins.

John146
Oct 31st 2008, 09:12 PM
Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. Acts 16:14 NKJVTell me, whose decision was it for Lydia to have been worshiping God even before her heart was opened to what Paul was saying to her? Don't you suppose that God opened her heart because she was already worshiping Him?


I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Ezek 36:26 NKJVThis happens after repentance and faith.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Jn 3:3 NKJV

This means "perceive/understand the things of God's kingdom" - it is equivalent to illumination by the Spirit.Yes, I know what it means.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5 NKJV

We enter the kingdom of God and become His subjects NOW. NEITHER of these verses is speaking of Heaven or the new heavens and new earth.Yes, I already knew that, too. We enter the kingdom of God immediately upon being born of the Spirit. This follows repentance and faith.


And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” Jn 6:65 NKJV

God MUST act first in renewing our hearts - or we would never seek after Him:-That is not true. You are taking that verse out of context. The ones that God has come to Christ are the ones who believe in Christ.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We know from John 6:44 that no man can come to the Father unless the Father draws Him. Well, Christ said He would draw all men to Himself (John 12:32). God desires all men to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). So, we can't possibly conclude that God just randomly has some come to Christ and doesn't give the rest any chance to do so. That just contradicts too much scripture to be seen as a valid argument.


There is NONE righteous, NO, NOT ONE; NONE who understands; there is NONE who seeks after God. Rom 3:10b-11 NKJV I guess we are going to have to play a game of scripture tag:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Hebrews 11
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1 Chr 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Deut 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

It is a choice of whether to seek God or not. Notice the condition given to Solomon: "if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever".

The understanding that we should have of a passage like Romans 3:10-11 (quoted from Psalm 14 & 53) is that man left completely to himself will indeed not seek God. But God has intervened and provided His Word for people to hear and also He speaks to people's hearts and consciences with His Spirit. So, once people are made aware of the truth it is their responsibility to seek the Lord while He may be found. There is only so much time that people have in order to repent and put their faith in Christ before it is too late. Many are called, but few are chosen. What is the difference between the many who are not chosen and the few who are chosen? The few have accepted the gospel and put their faith in Christ while the many have rejected the gospel and Christ. Read Matthew 22:1-14.


Because we love darkness rather than light and are dead in trespasses and sins.That is the state everyone is in apart from any intervention from God. But once people hear the word of God then people's minds can be changed and eyes can be opened. Once people hear the truth than it is up to them to either accept it and embrace it or to reject it.

9Marksfan
Nov 1st 2008, 10:10 PM
Tell me, whose decision was it for Lydia to have been worshiping God even before her heart was opened to what Paul was saying to her? Don't you suppose that God opened her heart because she was already worshiping Him?

So you're saying she was deserving of salvation then? We're not told how she came to be a worshipper of God as a Gentile - but as no one seeks God, then even that desire must have been put there by God too. The point is - this is the ONLY verse in Scripture that speaks about a person's heart being opened in relation to responding to the gospel and it's GOD who opens the heart! This is the OPPOSITE of the gospel plea we so often hear "Just open your heart to the LORD"!


This happens after repentance and faith.

Chapter and verse please. If we could repent and believe WITHOUT being born of the Spirit - why would we need the Spirit at all? We've done what's necessary without His enabling!


Yes, I know what it means.

Glad to hear it - but look at the context - we're born again first - THEN we're able to perceive spiritual things - we can't repent and believe without perceiving spiritual things (ie the need to repent and believe) first!


Yes, I already knew that, too. We enter the kingdom of God immediately upon being born of the Spirit. This follows repentance and faith.

What is the means of entering the kingdom of God if not repenting and believing? And we need to be born again BEFORE we enter (repent and believe)!


That is not true. You are taking that verse out of context.

On the contrary - I think I am taking it entirely in context. Does God grant EVERYONE to come to Christ?


The ones that God has come to Christ are the ones who believe in Christ.

Sorry - what do you mean by this?


John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is speaking about what God's will is for the one who believes - I'm speaking about how that person comes to believe in the first place.


We know from John 6:44 that no man can come to the Father unless the Father draws Him. Well, Christ said He would draw all men to Himself (John 12:32).

But does "all" mean "every single individual who has ever lived, without exception"? There are other examples of "all" in Scripture where I'm sure you would agree that it does not mean this.


God desires all men to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). So, we can't possibly conclude that God just randomly has some come to Christ and doesn't give the rest any chance to do so.

God never acts randomly - He chooses a people for Himself very specifically. Everyone who hears has the opportunity - I'm not denying that. Both divine election and human responsibility are taught in Scripture - just because we can't reconcile them doesn't negate that - as Spurgeon said of the issue "I never try to reconcile friends"!


That just contradicts too much scripture to be seen as a valid argument.

And your denial of election doesn't contradict plenty of Scriptures?


I guess we are going to have to play a game of scripture tag:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Hebrews 11
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

1 Chr 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Deut 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

It is a choice of whether to seek God or not. Notice the condition given to Solomon: "if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever".

I don't have a problem with any of these passages.


The understanding that we should have of a passage like Romans 3:10-11 (quoted from Psalm 14 & 53) is that man left completely to himself will indeed not seek God.

Amen!


But God has intervened and provided His Word for people to hear and also He speaks to people's hearts and consciences with His Spirit.

Agreed - but if we are dead spiritually, how can we hear spiritually unless we are given "ears to hear"?


So, once people are made aware of the truth it is their responsibility to seek the Lord while He may be found. There is only so much time that people have in order to repent and put their faith in Christ before it is too late. Many are called, but few are chosen. What is the difference between the many who are not chosen and the few who are chosen? The few have accepted the gospel and put their faith in Christ while the many have rejected the gospel and Christ. Read Matthew 22:1-14.

Believe it or not, I agree with all of this - but you are looking at things purely from man's perspective - I would encourage you to look at it from God's perspective too - there we see HOW all this happens......


That is the state everyone is in apart from any intervention from God. But once people hear the word of God then people's minds can be changed and eyes can be opened.

Surely you must agree that this can only happen by the Spirit of God? If not, I'm guessing you never pray for anyone to be saved?


Once people hear the truth than it is up to them to either accept it and embrace it or to reject it.

That is their responsibility, undoubtedly - but God must work in their hearts in order for them to believe - andn that's where prayer comes in!

Veretax
Nov 1st 2008, 10:36 PM
I believe in the exodus account that it says that "Pharaoh" hardened his own heart a few times, and then God hardened it so I believe both are possible.

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:58 AM
I have to disagree. People could NOT open their hearts of their own accord or it would be works based salvation. Only God can open our hearts.
I thought "work based" is doing anything other than just believing God, (His salvation thru the work of Jesus) to be saved? For example, being good, giving money, being charitable, going to church, praying alot, not sinning, or anything else one can think of in order to gain entrance or favor with God. Some say they think they are "good" enough.
Something man can do instead of what God has already done, like the Cross.

I'm not so sure of your intrepretation of what constitutes "a work".

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 03:02 AM
That is their responsibility, undoubtedly - but God must work in their hearts in order for them to believe - andn that's where prayer comes in!

You are right, but this must also be part of where the Lord Jesus said He will draw All men to HIM.

9Marksfan
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:24 AM
You are right, but this must also be part of where the Lord Jesus said He will draw All men to HIM.

Amen! And not to pre-empt jesuslover1968, but when we treat faith as something WE do without God's enabling, we can take credit for it - and then it becomes a "work".

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:31 AM
Amen! And not to pre-empt jesuslover1968, but when we treat faith as something WE do without God's enabling, we can take credit for it - and then it becomes a "work".
Faith is believing something or someone, how is that working? Yes, it is something you are believing, but you're not working. You are believing in the work of someone else..Jesus Christ....but you are saying that if you believe on your own then you can brag it is your faith that saved you, right? But..faith or believing in the work of Jesus is what saves us, so we have to credit our salvation to that, otherwise we be telling people something like: I am saved because I believe in Jesus, but it really wasn't because I believed it was because God gave me the faith to believe....We'd be afraid of telling people that our faith has saved us yet how many times did Jesus say "Your faith has made you well"?
Well, I'm just thinking with you but I'm good at merry-go-rounds so I'll abstain for now. :D

9Marksfan
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:40 AM
Faith is believing something or someone, how is that working? Yes, it is something you are believing, but you're not working. You are believing in the work of someone else..Jesus Christ....

Correct - that is true saving faith. But it also involves trusting Christ - personal and wholehearted commitment.


but you are saying that if you believe on your own then you can brag it is your faith that saved you, right?

Not "can" as in "permitted to" but "can" as in "might", if that makes sense!


But..faith or believing in the work of Jesus is what saves us, so we have to credit our salvation to that,

No it is GRACE that saves us THROUGH faith (Eph 2:8-9) - a subtle but VITALLY important distinction.


otherwise we be telling people something like: I am saved because I believe in Jesus, but it really wasn't because I believed it was because God gave me the faith to believe....We'd be afraid of telling people that our faith has saved us yet how many times did Jesus say "Your faith has made you well"?

We should give all the glory to God in salvation - we should say that HE saved us and put all the emphasis of salvation on HIM - people will then SEE what faith we have!


Well, I'm just thinking with you but I'm good at merry-go-rounds so I'll abstain for now. :D

Do you agree that, while God does not believe FOR us, He grants us to believe and faith is in that sense a "gift" from Him - ie He enables us to believe?

Firstfruits
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:59 AM
Mt 13:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mt 13:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mt 13:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mt 13:23 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

All heard the word, but not all believed the word. :bounce:

Firstfruits

My heart's Desire
Nov 4th 2008, 05:11 AM
Correct - that is true saving faith. But it also involves trusting Christ - personal and wholehearted commitment.



Not "can" as in "permitted to" but "can" as in "might", if that makes sense!



No it is GRACE that saves us THROUGH faith (Eph 2:8-9) - a subtle but VITALLY important distinction.



We should give all the glory to God in salvation - we should say that HE saved us and put all the emphasis of salvation on HIM - people will then SEE what faith we have!



Do you agree that, while God does not believe FOR us, He grants us to believe and faith is in that sense a "gift" from Him - ie He enables us to believe?Sure I believe that in so much that it is His Will for all to be saved, though not all are.
I am saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith. Unmerited- I didn't DO anything to deserve His favor but believe His Words and work by Jesus Christ. Grace through faith.:)

jesuslover1968
Nov 4th 2008, 04:27 PM
Where does scripture teach this? Do you believe people can harden their own hearts and close their own eyes to the truth? If so, why can't they also open their hearts and eyes to the truth?


I don't think we can do anything God doesn't allow us to do. He gives us breath, so by default, it is Him, LETTING us have our will. In that context, yes I do believe we can harden our hearts. people can NOT open their own eyes to the truth because if they could, there would never have been a need for a Savior...or even a God for that matter.


answer me this question: When Jesus' disciples were chosen, why did none of them just decide, of themselves, to be His disciples instead of Jesus having to call them? If humans have the power to decide to accept Christ without His help, how powerful is our God then? If we can walk away from God, who said he changes us and will keep us, how powerful to save is He really? Humans only do what God allows them to do. We are no more powerful than satan, who has to have permission to do his deeds. God does not make us choose Him. he changes us so that we can. Faith is a gift, just as grace is a gift. Without faith, we could Not choose. Faith is not something we all just have... or everyone we be saved already.

Joel 2:28-32
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matt. 9:16
Mark 2:21-22
Luke 5:36-39
John 3:4
Romans 6:6
2 Cor. 5:16-20
Eph. 4:22
2 pet. 1:18-22

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 07:51 PM
Amen! And not to pre-empt jesuslover1968, but when we treat faith as something WE do without God's enabling, we can take credit for it - and then it becomes a "work".Where does scripture teach this?

Firstfruits
Nov 4th 2008, 08:11 PM
I don't think we can do anything God doesn't allow us to do. He gives us breath, so by default, it is Him, LETTING us have our will. In that context, yes I do believe we can harden our hearts. people can NOT open their own eyes to the truth because if they could, there would never have been a need for a Savior...or even a God for that matter.


answer me this question: When Jesus' disciples were chosen, why did none of them just decide, of themselves, to be His disciples instead of Jesus having to call them? If humans have the power to decide to accept Christ without His help, how powerful is our God then? If we can walk away from God, who said he changes us and will keep us, how powerful to save is He really? Humans only do what God allows them to do. We are no more powerful than satan, who has to have permission to do his deeds. God does not make us choose Him. he changes us so that we can. Faith is a gift, just as grace is a gift. Without faith, we could Not choose. Faith is not something we all just have... or everyone we be saved already.

Joel 2:28-32
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matt. 9:16
Mark 2:21-22
Luke 5:36-39
John 3:4
Romans 6:6
2 Cor. 5:16-20
Eph. 4:22
2 pet. 1:18-22

So if we sin and go to hell, it is God that allows this to happen against his will, is that what you are saying?

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 4th 2008, 08:28 PM
I don't think we can do anything God doesn't allow us to do. He gives us breath, so by default, it is Him, LETTING us have our will. In that context, yes I do believe we can harden our hearts. people can NOT open their own eyes to the truth because if they could, there would never have been a need for a Savior...or even a God for that matter. I believe people can be shown the truth and then are given the responsibility to choose to accept or reject it.


answer me this question: When Jesus' disciples were chosen, why did none of them just decide, of themselves, to be His disciples instead of Jesus having to call them? If humans have the power to decide to accept Christ without His help, how powerful is our God then? If we can walk away from God, who said he changes us and will keep us, how powerful to save is He really? Humans only do what God allows them to do. We are no more powerful than satan, who has to have permission to do his deeds. God does not make us choose Him. he changes us so that we can. Faith is a gift, just as grace is a gift. Without faith, we could Not choose. Faith is not something we all just have... or everyone we be saved already.

Joel 2:28-32
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matt. 9:16
Mark 2:21-22
Luke 5:36-39
John 3:4
Romans 6:6
2 Cor. 5:16-20
Eph. 4:22
2 pet. 1:18-22You have clearly misunderstood my position. When did I say that people come to Christ without first being called?

I'll try to explain my position using the parable of the wedding invitation (or whatever you want to call it).

Matthew 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14For many are called, but few are chosen.

I hope you agree that this is a parable regarding the gospel of salvation being offered first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. Notice in verse 3 that people were called to the wedding but they would not come. It doesn't say they could not come. They would not. They were not willing. This is speaking of the Jews. Just like what we read about in Matthew 23:37-38. To me, this means they chose to reject the wedding invitation, which means they rejected the gospel of salvation.

Then in verses 4 through 6 God sends more servants to invite the Jews to the wedding. But they didn't think much of it and went their own way. Then they treated His servants spitefully and killed them. Which is exactly what happened to the original disciples.

Then it says the king was angry with them for rejecting the invitation and had them destroyed and their city was burned up. This is a reference to what happened in 70 AD when the Roman armies came and killed the people who remained in Jerusalem instead of heeding Jesus' warning to flee and they burned down the temple and the city, leaving no stone left unturned just as Jesus prophesied.

So, once the Jews rejected the gospel (not all of them, of course) then we know from the book of Acts that it then went out to the Gentile nations. That is what the "highways" in verse 9 are referring to. All people, good and bad, were invited to the wedding. So, some people rejected the invitation outright while some agreed to come to the wedding.

The king saw a guest without a wedding garment on and had that person cast out. I believe that refers to people who think they are Christians but never truly repented and gave their lives to the Lord. People who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" and He will tell them "I know you not".

Then Jesus concludes the parable by saying, "For many are called, but few are chosen". Why are there many who are called but not chosen? Because they had no ability to believe the gospel? No. They willfully chose to reject it after hearing it.

jesuslover1968
Nov 4th 2008, 09:09 PM
So if we sin and go to hell, it is God that allows this to happen against his will, is that what you are saying?

Firstfruits


Not even close.

jesuslover1968
Nov 4th 2008, 09:11 PM
I believe people can be shown the truth and then are given the responsibility to choose to accept or reject it.

You have clearly misunderstood my position. When did I say that people come to Christ without first being called?

I'll try to explain my position using the parable of the wedding invitation (or whatever you want to call it).

Matthew 22
1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14For many are called, but few are chosen.

I hope you agree that this is a parable regarding the gospel of salvation being offered first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. Notice in verse 3 that people were called to the wedding but they would not come. It doesn't say they could not come. They would not. They were not willing. This is speaking of the Jews. Just like what we read about in Matthew 23:37-38. To me, this means they chose to reject the wedding invitation, which means they rejected the gospel of salvation.

Then in verses 4 through 6 God sends more servants to invite the Jews to the wedding. But they didn't think much of it and went their own way. Then they treated His servants spitefully and killed them. Which is exactly what happened to the original disciples.

Then it says the king was angry with them for rejecting the invitation and had them destroyed and their city was burned up. This is a reference to what happened in 70 AD when the Roman armies came and killed the people who remained in Jerusalem instead of heeding Jesus' warning to flee and they burned down the temple and the city, leaving no stone left unturned just as Jesus prophesied.

So, once the Jews rejected the gospel (not all of them, of course) then we know from the book of Acts that it then went out to the Gentile nations. That is what the "highways" in verse 9 are referring to. All people, good and bad, were invited to the wedding. So, some people rejected the invitation outright while some agreed to come to the wedding.

The king saw a guest without a wedding garment on and had that person cast out. I believe that refers to people who think they are Christians but never truly repented and gave their lives to the Lord. People who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" and He will tell them "I know you not".

Then Jesus concludes the parable by saying, "For many are called, but few are chosen". Why are there many who are called but not chosen? Because they had no ability to believe the gospel? No. They willfully chose to reject it after hearing it.

I will agree with this...:)

jesuslover1968
Nov 4th 2008, 09:15 PM
Where does scripture teach this?
Ephesians 2:5-10

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

9Marksfan
Nov 5th 2008, 11:04 AM
Where does scripture teach this?

When Cain brought his offering, was it something he did himself? And what did God make of it?

If we make faith a condition that we must fulfill BY OURSELVES, then we merit salvation because we have done something that others have not done - we therefore merit salvation by our work of faith. Instead, the Bible teaches that salvation is COMPLETED and faith is the "empty hand" that receives it - a beggar hasn't earned a crust of bread if it is offered to him. But if someone fuflils a condition in eg a competitiion by doing something, they are applauded and congratulated - and they no doubt congratulate themselves for being so wise as to fulfil whatever condition it was - do you see the difference?

We need to understand better what God means when He command us to "believe" - and what "believing" really is.....

Firstfruits
Nov 5th 2008, 01:23 PM
Not even close.

Okay, if it is not Gods will that we go to hell and it is not our will that we go to hell, is it because of the choices we make between wrong and right that causes us to go to hell?

If that is not so then please explain?

Thank you.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Nov 5th 2008, 10:52 PM
Okay, if it is not Gods will that we go to hell and it is not our will that we go to hell, is it because of the choices we make between wrong and right that caueses us to go to hell?

If that is not so then please explain?

Thank you.

Firstfruits

No.

It is more then 'our choices' that is a problem. The problem is sin, rather then sins.

If a bad tree does not produce any fruit (bad fruit), does that make the bad tree, a good tree?

If you went and put some good fruit, on a bad tree, would that make the bad tree good?

The bad fruit only shows what kind of tree we are; 'BAD'
The tree is the problem, not the fruit. Please also note: As Eve found out, that even bad fruit can look good. Having a form of godliness.

That is why God has said the tree itself must die. You must be born anew (crucified with Christ). Recon yourselves dead.

Many seem to think that we must try and make a bad tree good. That some how we must improve the bad tree. Patch up the old cloth, with new cloth. New wine in old wineskins.

Num 17:6 And Moses spoke unto the children of Israel, and every one of their princes gave him a rod apiece, for each prince one, according to their fathers' houses, even twelve rods: and the rod of Aaron was among their rods.
Num 17:7 And Moses laid up the rods before the LORD in the tabernacle of witness.
Num 17:8 And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.
Num 17:9 And Moses brought out all the rods from before the LORD unto all the children of Israel: and they looked, and took every man his rod.
Num 17:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.

God caused the rod [dead wood] of Aaron that was placed in the tabernacle to blossom. This is to show that it is God and God alone who works the works.

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 11:16 PM
Ephesians 2:5-10

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.That passage doesn't teach that faith is a work of the law or a work of righteousness. Scripture only teaches that we are not saved by works of the law or by good works of righteousness (Titus 3:5-7). The work of faith is neither of those.

1 Thess 1
2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The work of faith is putting our faith, trust and hope in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. What cause is there for boasting when we acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and need Christ to save us?

John146
Nov 5th 2008, 11:26 PM
When Cain brought his offering, was it something he did himself? And what did God make of it?

If we make faith a condition that we must fulfill BY OURSELVES, then we merit salvation because we have done something that others have not done - we therefore merit salvation by our work of faith. Instead, the Bible teaches that salvation is COMPLETED and faith is the "empty hand" that receives it - a beggar hasn't earned a crust of bread if it is offered to him. But if someone fuflils a condition in eg a competitiion by doing something, they are applauded and congratulated - and they no doubt congratulate themselves for being so wise as to fulfil whatever condition it was - do you see the difference?Both Paul and Jesus commended people for their faith. Paul spoke highly of his own faith at times. He had a confident assurance that what he believed was the truth. That isn't boasting or taking credit for one's salvation. How is it boasting or taking credit when we are required to deny ourselves and acknowledge that we are sinners and can't save ourselves and are in need of a Savior to give us mercy, forgiveness and salvation? He who humbles himself will be exalted while he who exalts himself will be humbled (Luke 18:14).


We need to understand better what God means when He command us to "believe" - and what "believing" really is.....Do we? Does it mean something other than denying oneself and putting one's complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and for forgiveness, salvation and eternal life?

9Marksfan
Nov 6th 2008, 09:48 AM
Both Paul and Jesus commended people for their faith.

I believe in each context it was the courage and perseverance that sprang from that faith that was commended, as opposed to going the easy way - faith i a gift of God - but there are times when using it takes great courage and endurance.


Paul spoke highly of his own faith at times.

Really? Examples? I thought he spoke highly of Christ.....


He had a confident assurance that what he believed was the truth.

And so should all of us - that says more about the truth of Christ and His work for us than it does about Paul's faith (or anyone else's).


That isn't boasting or taking credit for one's salvation.

I never said that any of the apostles boasted or took credit for their salvation.


How is it boasting or taking credit when we are required to deny ourselves and acknowledge that we are sinners and can't save ourselves and are in need of a Savior to give us mercy, forgiveness and salvation? He who humbles himself will be exalted while he who exalts himself will be humbled (Luke 18:14).

It is boasting when you claim that faith is something YOU produce rather than a gift from God. Let me ask you - DO you believe it is a gift from God? Do you believe that God GRANTS you to believe? Not just the OPPORTUNITY to believe but the ABILITY?


Do we? Does it mean something other than denying oneself and putting one's complete faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and for forgiveness, salvation and eternal life?

We need to understand where it originates from.

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 01:04 PM
No.

It is more then 'our choices' that is a problem. The problem is sin, rather then sins.

If a bad tree does not produce any fruit (bad fruit), does that make the bad tree, a good tree?

If you went and put some good fruit, on a bad tree, would that make the bad tree good?

The bad fruit only shows what kind of tree we are; 'BAD'
The tree is the problem, not the fruit. Please also note: As Eve found out, that even bad fruit can look good. Having a form of godliness.

That is why God has said the tree itself must die. You must be born anew (crucified with Christ). Recon yourselves dead.

Many seem to think that we must try and make a bad tree good. That some how we must improve the bad tree. Patch up the old cloth, with new cloth. New wine in old wineskins.

Num 17:6 And Moses spoke unto the children of Israel, and every one of their princes gave him a rod apiece, for each prince one, according to their fathers' houses, even twelve rods: and the rod of Aaron was among their rods.
Num 17:7 And Moses laid up the rods before the LORD in the tabernacle of witness.
Num 17:8 And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.
Num 17:9 And Moses brought out all the rods from before the LORD unto all the children of Israel: and they looked, and took every man his rod.
Num 17:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.

God caused the rod [dead wood] of Aaron that was placed in the tabernacle to blossom. This is to show that it is God and God alone who works the works.

Do we not choose wether to sin or not to sin?

What does it mean to awake to righteousness?

Rom 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Nov 6th 2008, 01:26 PM
Do we not choose wether to sin or not to sin?

What does it mean to awake to righteousness?

Rom 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits

These letters were written to Christian who had grown dull and lazy - not to people who were unregenerate and had no power or ability to awake spiritually.

jesuslover1968
Nov 6th 2008, 02:37 PM
That passage doesn't teach that faith is a work of the law or a work of righteousness. Scripture only teaches that we are not saved by works of the law or by good works of righteousness (Titus 3:5-7). The work of faith is neither of those.

1 Thess 1
2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The work of faith is putting our faith, trust and hope in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. What cause is there for boasting when we acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and need Christ to save us?


You are exactly correct. The passage teaches that faith IS A GIFT FROM GOD. It isn't a work we do at all on our own. It is from God.
From what I am seeing in your answers, you believe that your faith is something you do of your own accord, but it isn't. If God doesn't call you and give you faith, and CHANGE you, you could never be saved.
I would like it if you explained to me what you think the "work of faith is?"
God Bless.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 6th 2008, 09:41 PM
Do we not choose wether to sin or not to sin?

What does it mean to awake to righteousness?

Rom 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits

Does bad fruit choose to grow on a bad tree?

Do you choose to breath?
Do you say to yourself, 'I will breath in, and then I will breath out'?
The only way to truly stop breathing, is to die.

Sinning is natural law of the flesh. Exercise the flesh and you sin. [Rom 7]
You seem overly concerned with the bad fruit, and what God wants to deal with is the bad tree [flesh].

If a fish stopped swimming, would it not still be a fish?
If a dog stopped barking, would it not still be a dog?

If you trained a dog to swim, does it become a fish?
If you trained a fish to bark, does it become a dog?

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 09:57 PM
Does bad fruit choose to grow on a bad tree?

Do you choose to breath?
Do you say to yourself, 'I will breath in, and then I will breath out'?
The only way to truly stop breathing, is to die.

Sinning is natural law of the flesh. Exercise the flesh and you sin. [Rom 7]
You seem overly concerned with the bad fruit, and what God wants to deal with is the bad tree [flesh].

If a fish stopped swimming, would it not still be a fish?
If a dog stopped barking, would it not still be a dog?

If you trained a dog to swim, does it become a fish?
If you trained a fish to bark, does it become a dog?

What do Jews and Gentile become when they are born again, knowing that they are no longer Jew nor Gentiles in Christ but a new creature?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Nov 6th 2008, 10:02 PM
These letters were written to Christian who had grown dull and lazy - not to people who were unregenerate and had no power or ability to awake spiritually.

If they were not awake to righteousness, were they therefore awake to sin, since it also tells them not to sin?

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 10:30 AM
If they were not awake to righteousness, were they therefore awake to sin, since it also tells them not to sin?

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits

I guess that's a fair point - in fact I often say that the churches were mixed (believers and non-believers), hence the calls to conversion (as this may well be) - but to me it's like when Jesus commanded dead Lazarus to come forth - there was NO WAY he could have done it on his own, was there? When God commands people to "awake", then the Spirit applies that to their sleeping/dead hearts, their spiritual eyes are opened and they wake up to righteosuness and cease from sin!

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 01:17 PM
I guess that's a fair point - in fact I often say that the churches were mixed (believers and non-believers), hence the calls to conversion (as this may well be) - but to me it's like when Jesus commanded dead Lazarus to come forth - there was NO WAY he could have done it on his own, was there? When God commands people to "awake", then the Spirit applies that to their sleeping/dead hearts, their spiritual eyes are opened and they wake up to righteosuness and cease from sin!

Would you agree with regards to the following, that those that are being told to awake were originaly believers that had gone astray?

Rom 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 01:49 PM
Would you agree with regards to the following, that those that are being told to awake were originaly believers that had gone astray?

Rom 13:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=13&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits


The first one, yes, because they had believed - the second, probably not, because they did not know God - and knowing God = eternal life (Jn 17:3).

jesuslover1968
Nov 7th 2008, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Firstfruits http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1857439#post1857439)
If they were not awake to righteousness, were they therefore awake to sin, since it also tells them not to sin?

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits
I guess that's a fair point - in fact I often say that the churches were mixed (believers and non-believers), hence the calls to conversion (as this may well be) - but to me it's like when Jesus commanded dead Lazarus to come forth - there was NO WAY he could have done it on his own, was there? When God commands people to "awake", then the Spirit applies that to their sleeping/dead hearts, their spiritual eyes are opened and they wake up to righteosuness and cease from sin!



When the Bible speaks of being dead to sin, is the person really dead? When the Bible speaks of being alive in Christ, but dead to sin, are we physically dead? When we are alive in Christ, do we physically change?
In the verses that were given, Paul talked about knowledge, but he did not say saving knowledge. Many people have knowledge about God, and other things for that matter, but don't use that knowledge.
The Church is mixed. The wheat and the tares must grow together until Jesus comes back and separates us.
Bringing Lazarus back to life was a work of God. Lazarus couldn't have done it at all. Dead people can't do anything. Jesus called to Lazarus, but He had to give him the ability to hear before he could respond to that call, just as He does for us. It is a type and shadow of how being called and saved works.

watchinginawe
Nov 7th 2008, 02:56 PM
True, confession even before repentance.

Blessings,
BHSI believe that repentance is more than just changing one's actions (or inactions). I believe repentance is what happens before what happens happens. I believe that repentance happens before and results in confession. I believe that repentance happens before and results in salvation. Look what Peter and those in Jerusalem offer about repentance in the following:

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

What gave the Gentiles life (those at Cornelius' house)? Belief on the Lord Jesus Christ, confirmed by the Holy Ghost. What was granted by God in order for them to believe? Repentance. I could offer more here, but I will just add that God granted the Gentiles a preacher in the person of Peter to hear "words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved". What God ultimately granted was the preaching of the Gospel which is "the power of God unto salvation" to the Gentiles, and the Holy Ghost's witness to both the believers and the Jews. What we don't see at Cornelius' house is some form of outward work of repentance. This "repentance unto life" occurred within making them a believer.

In the case of confession, I believe it is repentance before confession. Repentance being the change in one's conviction that brings about the confession, or action, or belief, etc. True repentance always results in the "what happens", else "what happens" never happens.

Consider:

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Jesus preaches repent, believe.


In the case of John the Baptist's batpism, Paul offers:

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Repent, believe. John's baptism of repentance making the way straight to believe on Christ Jesus. It really works the same way now IMO.


Jesus on repentance:

Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

In verse 29 above, note that repentance occurs and he went. In verse 32, Jesus says they didn't believe John because they hadn't repented. They couldn't believe without first repenting.

So I don't believe that repentance is only the actual action of a changed mind, but rather repentance is the changed mind that results in the actual action. I hope that is confusing enouigh. :)

God Bless!

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 05:04 PM
When the Bible speaks of being dead to sin, is the person really dead? When the Bible speaks of being alive in Christ, but dead to sin, are we physically dead? When we are alive in Christ, do we physically change?
In the verses that were given, Paul talked about knowledge, but he did not say saving knowledge. Many people have knowledge about God, and other things for that matter, but don't use that knowledge.
The Church is mixed. The wheat and the tares must grow together until Jesus comes back and separates us.
Bringing Lazarus back to life was a work of God. Lazarus couldn't have done it at all. Dead people can't do anything. Jesus called to Lazarus, but He had to give him the ability to hear before he could respond to that call, just as He does for us. It is a type and shadow of how being called and saved works.

Do you believe that Paul was speaking to unbelievers/sinners, or was he speaking to those that believed and had strayed from the truth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 05:33 PM
It is boasting when you claim that faith is something YOU produce rather than a gift from God. Let me ask you - DO you believe it is a gift from God? Do you believe that God GRANTS you to believe? Not just the OPPORTUNITY to believe but the ABILITY?I believe God has given all people the opportunity and ability to believe. Would God command all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) if not all people could? Would God desire all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:4) if not all people had the ability to believe? Would Christ have died as a ransom for all people (1 Tim 2:6) as the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) if not everyone had the ability to believe? Would God condemn people for not believing in Christ (John 3:18) if He never gave them the ability to believe? The correct answer to all of those questions is no.


We need to understand where it originates from.First, from the preaching of the word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17). Then once one hears the word of God they believe with their hearts.

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Of course, not everyone does believe in their hearts. Why not? Because many choose to reject the truth. It isn't a case of them rejecting the truth because they had no ability to accept it. Passages like the following prove that:

2 Thess 2
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

They rejected the truth. Had they accepted it, they would have been saved. In no way does it say that they rejected it because they had no ability to accept it.

Matthew 13
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Again, these people closed their own eyes to the truth. They rejected it. Had they accepted it they would have been converted and healed.

The same concept is seen here:

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

It wasn't that they could not. They would not. They were not willing to accept Christ as their Messiah. That was their choice. Had they not chosen to reject Him He would "have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings".

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 05:46 PM
You are exactly correct. The passage teaches that faith IS A GIFT FROM GOD. It isn't a work we do at all on our own. It is from God.
From what I am seeing in your answers, you believe that your faith is something you do of your own accord, but it isn't. If God doesn't call you and give you faith, and CHANGE you, you could never be saved. Where does scripture teach that God gives people saving faith? You have all these opinions but you don't offer any scripture to back them up.


I would like it if you explained to me what you think the "work of faith is?"
God Bless.In the following passage, whose faith is being counted as righteousness?

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The work of faith is this:

Romans 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

People are required to believe in Christ in their hearts in order to be saved. You believe that only few are given the ability to do that (few are saved - Matt 7:13-14). Can you explain why it would be that God would only save few while not giving the rest any ability to repent and believe in Christ? Does scripture teach that God is partial or impartial?

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 06:07 PM
When the Bible speaks of being dead to sin, is the person really dead? When the Bible speaks of being alive in Christ, but dead to sin, are we physically dead? When we are alive in Christ, do we physically change?
In the verses that were given, Paul talked about knowledge, but he did not say saving knowledge. Many people have knowledge about God, and other things for that matter, but don't use that knowledge.
The Church is mixed. The wheat and the tares must grow together until Jesus comes back and separates us.
Bringing Lazarus back to life was a work of God. Lazarus couldn't have done it at all. Dead people can't do anything. Jesus called to Lazarus, but He had to give him the ability to hear before he could respond to that call, just as He does for us. It is a type and shadow of how being called and saved works.You are trying to make the claim that spiritually dead people cannot do anything, such as repent and believe in Christ. You seem to make spiritually dead people out to be zombies with no hearts or consciences. We, of course, are spiritually alive. Does this mean that we are no longer able to sin? Of course not. Being spiritually dead does not mean someone is incapable of repenting and believing just as being spiritually alive does not mean we are incapable of sinning and falling away. Being spiritually dead is not the same as being physically dead any more than being spiritually alive is the same as having immortal bodies.

Can you show me any scripture that says being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins means a person is not capable of recognizing that they are a sinner without first being made spiritually alive (born again of the Spirit)? Yes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But where does it say that faith comes by being made spiritually alive (born again)?

In the following parable, is the publican spiritually dead or spiritually alive at the time that he repents of his sins and asks God for mercy?

Luke 18
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Where does this parable at all suggest that the publican was first made spiritually alive and born of the Spirit before he came before God and asked Him for mercy while confessing that he was a sinner?

John146
Nov 7th 2008, 06:13 PM
The first one, yes, because they had believed - the second, probably not, because they did not know God - and knowing God = eternal life (Jn 17:3).So, why would Paul speak about them not knowing God to their shame if they had no ability to repent and believe so that they would be saved and know God personally? If they had no ability to repent and believe there would no reason to shame them because they could not help but not know God in that case. What would be the cause for shaming someone for not doing something that they have no ability to do? That would be like shaming them for not lifting a two ton boulder or something.

jesuslover1968
Nov 7th 2008, 06:26 PM
Do you believe that Paul was speaking to unbelievers/sinners, or was he speaking to those that believed and had strayed from the truth?

God bless you!

Firstfruits


I do not believe that any who have actually been saved are EVER lost. I believe Paul was preaching to a church, which typically has saved, AND unsaved people in attendance. I think he was speaking to people who had heard the truth( had knowledge ) but didn't use it. If we as Christians sin, God will rebuke us, and bring us back. We are never ASTRAY. We are ALWAYS in HIM.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2008, 08:50 PM
When the Bible speaks of being dead to sin, is the person really dead? When the Bible speaks of being alive in Christ, but dead to sin, are we physically dead? When we are alive in Christ, do we physically change?
In the verses that were given, Paul talked about knowledge, but he did not say saving knowledge. Many people have knowledge about God, and other things for that matter, but don't use that knowledge.
The Church is mixed. The wheat and the tares must grow together until Jesus comes back and separates us.
Bringing Lazarus back to life was a work of God. Lazarus couldn't have done it at all. Dead people can't do anything. Jesus called to Lazarus, but He had to give him the ability to hear before he could respond to that call, just as He does for us. It is a type and shadow of how being called and saved works.

What is this? :o
Do you mean to say that Lazarus came back to life, without using his own free will? :spin:

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2008, 08:51 PM
What do Jews and Gentile become when they are born again, knowing that they are no longer Jew nor Gentiles in Christ but a new creature?

Firstfruits

Can that 'new nature' that war's against the flesh, sin?

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2008, 08:58 PM
If they were not awake to righteousness, were they therefore awake to sin, since it also tells them not to sin?

1 Cor 15:34 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=46&CHAP=15&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Firstfruits

In context:
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 7th 2008, 09:11 PM
Where does scripture teach that God gives people saving faith? You have all these opinions but you don't offer any scripture to back them up.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Firstfruits
Nov 7th 2008, 09:23 PM
I do not believe that any who have actually been saved are EVER lost. I believe Paul was preaching to a church, which typically has saved, AND unsaved people in attendance. I think he was speaking to people who had heard the truth( had knowledge ) but didn't use it. If we as Christians sin, God will rebuke us, and bring us back. We are never ASTRAY. We are ALWAYS in HIM.


If we sin and God rebukes us what are we to do to get back into his good books?

If we sin does it not mean that we have gone astray, and that God needs to get us back on the straight and narrow road?

What does it mean to "Err from the truth"

Jas 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 03:41 PM
If we sin and God rebukes us what are we to do to get back into his good books?

If we sin does it not mean that we have gone astray, and that God needs to get us back on the straight and narrow road?

What does it mean to "Err from the truth"

Jas 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

wrong verses, sorry. That is unrighteous, not saved.

James 5:15-22
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



Romans 3


1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 04:05 PM
wrong verses, sorry. That is unrighteous, not saved.

James 5:15-22
15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



Romans 3


1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Are you saying that the saved do not sin?

[quote=jesuslover1968;1861661]wrong verses, sorry. That is unrighteous, not saved.

If the unrighteous are not saved then what would they be restored to?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 04:28 PM
Are you saying that the saved do not sin?

[quote=jesuslover1968;1861661]wrong verses, sorry. That is unrighteous, not saved.

If the unrighteous are not saved then what would they be restored to?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Firstfruits
Ezekiel 36:26-36
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.


For context...
Galatians 6


1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5For every man shall bear his own burden.
6Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
11Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
12As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. 18Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 04:44 PM
[quote=Firstfruits;1861694]Are you saying that the saved do not sin?


Ezekiel 36:26-36
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.


For context...
Galatians 6


1Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5For every man shall bear his own burden.
6Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
11Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
12As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. 18Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

If they are sinners what are they to be restored to with regards to erring from the truth? They must have been in the truth in order to err from the truth.

Firstfruits

jesuslover1968
Nov 10th 2008, 04:47 PM
[quote=jesuslover1968;1861734]

If they are sinners what are they to be restored to with regards to erring from the truth? They must have been in the truth in order to err from the truth.

Firstfruits
Really? how so? Many people know the truth about God, very few adhere to that truth. What do you think that means?