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jeffweeder
Oct 20th 2008, 01:19 AM
2PET 3- Study-

1 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:1')) This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:2')) that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.


The Coming Day of the Lord

3 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:3')) Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:4')) and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:5')) For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:6')) through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:7')) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:8')) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:9')) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


A New Heaven and Earth

10 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:10')) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:11')) Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:12')) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:13')) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:14')) Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:15')) and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:16')) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:17')) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:18')) but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

----------------


So let me get this straight, The promise of his coming, is--- the day of the lord---,the day of Judgement--,the day of eternity--the day of destruction for this old heavens and earth.
They were looking for his promise to come,and anticipated the home of righteousness in the new heaven and new earth.
This was Jesus exact promise to them.



"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Jn%2014:3')) "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also


This makes Peter and his congregation Amilleniasts, because they looked for Christ to be coming on the day when the old order of things completely passes away, and they looked for the result of his promise, which was the new home of righteousness.

According to Revelation, Peter places the second coming of Christ after the millenium, (when the old heaven and earth flee at the GWT)---which means he must have thought he was already in the millenium , as he doesnt mention such a thing as coming after christs coming---- his eyes were on the fathers House as being the reward of his promise.

If Peter was a premilleniast, he would have written that we look to his glorious earthly reign,( not get ahead of himself) and he would have had to change the way he describes the coming of the lord, as being a day when the old passes away,-- just like it did in Noahs day.
When Jesus comes like the days of noah, x amount of us righteous will survive to see the new world, the rest perish.

ACTS 17
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Ac 17:31')) because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."


--"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
16 (javascript:VClk('Rev 11:16')) And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 (javascript:VClk('Rev 11:17')) saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 (javascript:VClk('Rev 11:18')) "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

:kiss: be nice. ;)

scourge39
Oct 20th 2008, 01:42 AM
2PET 3- Study-

1 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:1')) This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:2')) that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.


The Coming Day of the Lord

3 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:3')) Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:4')) and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:5')) For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:6')) through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:7')) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:8')) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:9')) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


A New Heaven and Earth

10 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:10')) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:11')) Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:12')) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:13')) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:14')) Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:15')) and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:16')) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:17')) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('2Pe 3:18')) but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

----------------


So let me get this straight, The promise of his coming, is--- the day of the lord---,the day of Judgement--,the day of eternity--the day of destruction for this old heavens and earth.
They were looking for his promise to come,and anticipated the home of righteousness in the new heaven and new earth.
This was Jesus exact promise to them.



This makes Peter and his congregation Amilleniasts, because they looked for Christ to be coming on the day when the old order of things completely passes away, and they looked for the result of his promise, which was the new home of righteousness.

According to Revelation, Peter places the second coming of Christ after the millenium, (when the old heaven and earth flee at the GWT)---which means he must have thought he was already in the millenium , as he doesnt mention such a thing as coming after christs coming---- his eyes were on the fathers House as being the reward of his promise.

If Peter was a premilleniast, he would have written that we look to his glorious earthly reign,( not get ahead of himself) and he would have had to change the way he describes the coming of the lord, as being a day when the old passes away,-- just like it did in Noahs day.
When Jesus comes like the days of noah, x amount of us righteous will survive to see the new world, the rest perish.

ACTS 17
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 (http://javascript<b></b>:VClk('Ac 17:31')) because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."


--"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
16 (javascript:VClk('Rev 11:16')) And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 (javascript:VClk('Rev 11:17')) saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 (javascript:VClk('Rev 11:18')) "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

:kiss: be nice. ;)

Another fine passage discussing the one (and only) Second Coming of Christ at the end of the age. Not a peep about a secret, supersonic 'rapture' to be found.

Well, I'm an amillennialist (correct spelling :D) and the passage itself could fit into a historic premillennial framework as well. I agree with what you're saying. I don't believe that 'amillennialism' is an interpretative framework imposed on Scripture, it's what Scripture itself teaches upon careful exegesis, period. Historic Premillennialism's assertion that there will be a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ after the Second Coming is still a stretch. Apocalyptic literature like Revelation uses symbolism to describe reality. Where does one find the textual cues to suddenly take the 1,000 years literally when the whole of Revelation is symbolic? That's my question to Historic Premils.

Oma
Oct 20th 2008, 03:15 AM
Interesting topic, especially as I was just doing a study on it.

I think Peter saw the Millennium to be a spiritual one meaning the triumph of the Gospel spreading all over the world, at which time Satan was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations as he had for 4000 yrs.

Today it appears to me that the long Gospel age (spiritual millennium) is drawing to a close. If the binding of Satan at Christ’s resurrection means the limiting of his power over the nations so that where ever the Gospel went the captives were set free, so the loosing of the Evil One would mean the restoring of Satanic liberty to deceive the nations once again. Looking at today’s world with its philosophy, new age paganism, evolution, gross and appalling immorality, there is little doubt in my mind that Satan has been loosed

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 03:23 AM
The word day does not always refer to a 24 hour period of time.

wpm
Oct 20th 2008, 04:20 AM
The word day does not always refer to a 24 hour period of time.

However long this day it is a day of destruction. Is the Premil millennium 1,000 yrs of destruction? Moreover, the destruction arrives suddenly.

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 04:35 AM
However long this day it is a day of destruction. Is the Premil millennium 1,000 yrs of destruction? Moreover, the destruction arrives suddenly.

Does it say the destruction of the earth arrives suddenly?

jeffweeder
Oct 20th 2008, 05:31 AM
Sorry about the spelling.....i get tongue tied trying to say amillennialilist fast.


Does it say the destruction of the earth arrives suddenly?

Well Paul does, they cry peace and safety, then sudden destuction hits. Peter recognised Paul writings as seeing these same things he had.

The destruction comes suddenly , because Jesus come suddenly in a flame of fire punishing those that reject his truth, on that same day we are glorified in him-.

They recieve eternal punishment--2thess 1 ,which brings you Christ coming at the Great White Throne time again

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 05:43 AM
Sorry about the spelling.....i get tongue tied trying to say amillennialilist fast.



Well Paul does, they cry peace and safety, then sudden destuction hits. Peter recognised Paul writings as seeing these same things he had.

The destruction comes suddenly , because Jesus come suddenly in a flame of fire punishing those that reject his truth, on that same day we are glorified in him-.

They recieve eternal punishment--2thess 1 ,which brings you Christ coming at the Great White Throne time again

Paul is speaking about people. What about the earth?

jeffweeder
Oct 20th 2008, 06:02 AM
It happens to the earth ,as/before it happens to the people.

Jesus said after the tribulation of those days the sun moon stars--heaven would be shaken and through that we would see the son of man coming in great power and glory.

At the GWT, heaven and earth flee away from the presence of God and then we see the eternal judgement and the opening of the lambs book of life.


Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds

Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

This seems to be identical with Matt 25, when Jesus comes ,takes his seat, and seperates the sheep from the goats.

John146
Oct 20th 2008, 02:28 PM
2PET 3- Study-

1 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:1%27%29) This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:2%27%29) that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.


The Coming Day of the Lord

3 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:3%27%29) Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:4%27%29) and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:5%27%29) For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:6%27%29) through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:7%27%29) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:8%27%29) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:9%27%29) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


A New Heaven and Earth

10 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:10%27%29) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:11%27%29) Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:12%27%29) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:13%27%29) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:14%27%29) Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:15%27%29) and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:16%27%29) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:17%27%29) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%272Pe%203:18%27%29) but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

----------------


So let me get this straight, The promise of his coming, is--- the day of the lord---,the day of Judgement--,the day of eternity--the day of destruction for this old heavens and earth.
They were looking for his promise to come,and anticipated the home of righteousness in the new heaven and new earth.
This was Jesus exact promise to them.



This makes Peter and his congregation Amilleniasts, because they looked for Christ to be coming on the day when the old order of things completely passes away, and they looked for the result of his promise, which was the new home of righteousness.

According to Revelation, Peter places the second coming of Christ after the millenium, (when the old heaven and earth flee at the GWT)---which means he must have thought he was already in the millenium , as he doesnt mention such a thing as coming after christs coming---- his eyes were on the fathers House as being the reward of his promise.

If Peter was a premilleniast, he would have written that we look to his glorious earthly reign,( not get ahead of himself) and he would have had to change the way he describes the coming of the lord, as being a day when the old passes away,-- just like it did in Noahs day.
When Jesus comes like the days of noah, x amount of us righteous will survive to see the new world, the rest perish.

ACTS 17
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%27Ac%2017:31%27%29) because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."


--"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
16 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%27Rev%2011:16%27%29) And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%27Rev%2011:17%27%29) saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
18 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:VClk%28%27Rev%2011:18%27%29) "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

:kiss: be nice. ;)I agree with everything that you said. There is one day of judgment. Scripture says it will occur on the day Christ returns. Christ will return at the end of the age (Matthew 24). According to the parable of the wheat and tares (Matt 13:24-30,36-43), the parable of the fishing net (Matt 13:47-50), and Matthew 25:31-46, the day of judgment occurs at the end of the age as well.

As far as 2 Peter 3 is concerned, I have yet to see a convincing argument from a premil explaining why they believe that passage does not say that the earth will be burned up the day that Christ returns.

wpm
Oct 20th 2008, 04:09 PM
Does it say the destruction of the earth arrives suddenly?

Actually yes. 2 Peter 3:10-13 explains, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

The phrase "will come" actually means "will arrive. Check it out. We discover in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted "in" or "within" throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. We must pause for one moment and ask an important question, “in which” what? Wherever one locates the day of the Lord we surely know it arrives “as a thief in the night” (or suddenly) “in which” certain things occur. What are these things that accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord? The above reading demonstrates how the day of the Lord “will come” suddenly “as a thief in the night; in the which”:

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state.

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 04:29 PM
Actually yes. 2 Peter 3:10-13 explains, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

The phrase "will come" actually means "will arrive. Check it out. We discover in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted "in" or "within" throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. We must pause for one moment and ask an important question, “in which” what? Wherever one locates the day of the Lord we surely know it arrives “as a thief in the night” (or suddenly) “in which” certain things occur. What are these things that accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord? The above reading demonstrates how the day of the Lord “will come” suddenly “as a thief in the night; in the which”:

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

And continues, “seeing then that all these things (that is 1-4) shall be luomenoon or dissolved / burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The old order of affairs is completely consumed by fire in a climactic conflagration in order to make way for the new eternal state.

The verse you quoted here says the day of the Lord comes suddenly. It doesn't day the earth is burned up suddenly. In the following sentence, what am I saying comes suddenly: "College football season is going to come suddenly in the which Florida will play Georgia". I am saying that college Football season is coming suddenly. I am not saying the Florida - Georgia game is sudden. The Florida - Georgia game is played sometime after the start of the season.

So I do not believe II Peter necessarily proves a-mill and the length of time of the day of the Lord is relevant. Like I said in a previous post the word "day" is not always used as a literal 24 hour period. If I say "back in the Roman's day", I am not speaking about a 24 hour period of time but rather an era.

John146
Oct 20th 2008, 04:40 PM
The verse you quoted here says the day of the Lord comes suddenly. It doesn't day the earth is burned up suddenly. In the following sentence, what am I saying comes suddenly: "College football season is going to come suddenly in the which Florida will play Georgia". I am saying that college Football season is coming suddenly. I am not saying the Florida - Georgia game is sudden. The Florida - Georgia game is played sometime after the start of the season.

So I do not believe II Peter necessarily proves a-mill and the length of time of the day of the Lord is relevant. Like I said in a previous post the word "day" is not always used as a literal 24 hour period. If I say "back in the Roman's day", I am not speaking about a 24 hour period of time but rather an era.Since we can see from 1 Thess 5:1-6 that the unbelievers are destroyed suddenly when the day of the Lord arrives, why wouldn't it make sense to see the destruction of the heavens and the earth as being sudden as well?

How exactly do you see the day of the Lord coming about? Do you believe it arrives with the second coming of Christ, as 2 Peter 3 indicates? If so, do you believe the earth will be burning uninhabited for a thousand years? Or do you see that it will only be partially burning while being inhabited by mortals at the same time? If so, where does it indicate that it would only be partially burned up?

wpm
Oct 20th 2008, 05:07 PM
The verse you quoted here says the day of the Lord comes suddenly. It doesn't day the earth is burned up suddenly. In the following sentence, what am I saying comes suddenly: "College football season is going to come suddenly in the which Florida will play Georgia". I am saying that college Football season is coming suddenly. I am not saying the Florida - Georgia game is sudden. The Florida - Georgia game is played sometime after the start of the season.

So I do not believe II Peter necessarily proves a-mill and the length of time of the day of the Lord is relevant. Like I said in a previous post the word "day" is not always used as a literal 24 hour period. If I say "back in the Roman's day", I am not speaking about a 24 hour period of time but rather an era.

First, there is not even a hint of 1,000 yrs in this text. You must insert it there, just like every other Second Coming passage. None show such a supposed future period.

Second, the appearance of the season is equated with matches. No matches, no season. It is not an abstract thing. The season's beginning is the beggining of the matches, just like the wrath arrives with the judgment of Christ. Anyway, Premils tend to like their own earthly parables/illustartions when their doctrine is not fitting. I prefer Scripture.

Third, I Thessalonians 5:2-7 says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

Please note (1) the destruction is “sudden” and (2) the wicked “shall not escape.” The fire that arrives is depicted as being totally destructive to the wicked.

Malachi says, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Here you have it!!!

cwb
Oct 20th 2008, 07:32 PM
Since we can see from 1 Thess 5:1-6 that the unbelievers are destroyed suddenly when the day of the Lord arrives, why wouldn't it make sense to see the destruction of the heavens and the earth as being sudden as well?

How exactly do you see the day of the Lord coming about? Do you believe it arrives with the second coming of Christ, as 2 Peter 3 indicates? If so, do you believe the earth will be burning uninhabited for a thousand years? Or do you see that it will only be partially burning while being inhabited by mortals at the same time? If so, where does it indicate that it would only be partially burned up?

I thought I answered that in the post you responded to. I didn't say anything about any partial burning. What I was trying to say is that I do not believe the burning of the earth occurs at the beginning of the day of the Lord and that the day of the Lord is a longer time than a 24 hour period of time

Zech 14:8 is an example of where "day" cleary is not referring to a 24 hour period of time.




And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

I do not believe God is saying here that living waters are going to go out of Jerusalem for 24 hours and that's it. Same with verse 9



And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

I believe the time the Lord is going to be king over all the earth is quite a bit longer than 24 hours.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 20th 2008, 10:22 PM
So, When does He get to rule the nations with a rod of iron, if they are all burned up at His appearing?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

jeffweeder
Oct 20th 2008, 11:23 PM
Hi

So, When does He get to rule the nations with a rod of iron, if they are all burned up at His appearing?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Jesus is seen with this sharp sword coming out of his mouth as he walks amongst the Churches- (the things that are).Rev 1

The gospel has smote every nation since and some are saved.

Jesus said that it would be the word that he has already spoken that would judge them the last day.


"I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.


Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation

wpm
Oct 21st 2008, 01:15 AM
So, When does He get to rule the nations with a rod of iron, if they are all burned up at His appearing?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

First, Revelation 19:15-16 says, “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or) rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (11-16).

Revelation 12:5 is also linked to Revelation 19, saying,“And she brought forth a man child, who was to poimaino (or) rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

Some Bible students zoom in on the phrases “rule all nations with a rod of iron” and “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” above and interpret them to mean ‘a 1,000 years Messianic rule over the nations from natural Jerusalem on a still sin-cursed earth. They argue this as if the wicked somehow survive the Coming of Christ. This is quite strange as the detailed account in Revelation 19 actually describes the opposite to what they infer. Rather than showing the wicked nations inheriting the new earth this reading in fact shows their complete destruction at Christ’s return.

However, a close look at the passages in view reveals that there is no such allusion or suggestion. The key word here, and sense often misunderstood, is the word “rule.” This word is poimaino in the original and is found eleven times in Scripture. It is rendered ‘feed’ in seven places, in the King James Version, mainly in the context of a shepherd tending to his sheep and ‘rule’ in the other four. Of the four references rendering it ‘rule’ in the King James Version, three of these are found in Revelation (2:27, 12:5, and 19:15) and one in Mathew (2:6).

The passage in Matthew 2:6 reads in the AV, “And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule (or poimaei) my people Israel.”

Interestingly, the New King James interprets it in its most general rendering, “But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are not the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you shall come a Ruler who will shepherd My people Israel.”

There are different words found in the New Testament which emanate from the same root word as poimaino such as poimne and poimnion rendered flock and poimen and poimeen rendered feed or shepherd. In fact Lurraine Boettner counts 39 references in the New Testament which emanates from the same root. Collectively, they are always employed in the context of the sheep, the shepherd and caring for the flock apart from one relating to cattle.

John makes four references to this word in the most shepherdly passage in the New Testament – John 10:11-15. There, Jesus says, “I am the good poimeen (shepherd): the good poimeen (shepherd) giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the poimeen (shepherd), whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good poimeen (shepherd), and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.”

The word is used here to describe the way that Christ tenderly shepherds His sheep and how He faithfully protects them from the enemy. This interpretation puts a deeper meaning on our prime text under study when we see the shepherding emphasis of the passage.

Second, the rod of iron comes from the Greek word rhabdos meaning a sceptre, a staff or a rod. It can also describe a stick, a wand, a cudgel, a cane or a baton. It is often used to describe a sceptre of royalty which is sign of power and sovereignty. When Jesus appears as King of kings and Lord of lords to exercise righteous judgment upon the nations the rebellious nations will finally be under the rule and sceptre (rod of iron) of Jesus. Satan will be stripped of his kingdoms and men will be brought to account for their lives. Christ will then smite the rebellious, striking them down with the rod of His power. Hebrews 1:8 records, “unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance Revelation 2:26-27 as support for their view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. They normally import a meaning into the phrase “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” which is not in, or suggested in, the passage. They are under the impression that the saints will be reigning with Christ over unbelieving subjugated nations for a period of 1,000 years after the Coming of Christ. They believe these nations will be subdued under the feet of Christ and the ruling saints. They depict this reign as a prolonged rule of the glorified saints over the conquered rebellious nations. Premils argue that God ushers these rebellious nations unto the new earth into a supposed future millennium where they will be carefully supervised.

This belief is in conflict with Scripture and the detail of the narrative here in Revelation 2 which shows Christ totally destroying them. The manner of which will be “as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers.”Whilst those that reject Christ will be put down at His Coming there is no teaching anywhere in the Word that states this would last 1,000 years. In fact, the word poimaino in this reading, which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture. This reading rather than suggesting the instigation of a future millennial reign is a poignant picture of the final separation that occurs at the Second Advent. Here Christ undertakes the separation of the nations.

John is making a reference to Psalms 2; and borrowing language from there to show that the wicked will be destroyed by the rod of iron. In actual fact, he is directly referring to Psalms 2:9, which declares, “Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” The wording of this passage is clear and climactic. There is no protracted survival of the wicked remotely suggested in it, but rather the decisive destruction of these rebels forever; they are broken in pieces as God hands out His final righteous judgement. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” and “the wicked shall be no more” at the Second Coming, this is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.

The reference to poimanei in Revelation 2 is in the context of the general judgment at the end of the world and our exercising of power with Christ as He gives out His final sentence on the wicked. The overcoming Church (in Christ) is seen to be part of the final judging of the nations and seeing their final destruction “as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken.” The Greek word for “broken” in this passage is suntribo (Strong’s 4937) meaning to crush completely, i.e. to shatter. This would suggest a total destruction of the wicked at His appearing. The destructive wording found here in this passage in the Greek correlates perfectly with the destructive wording used in Psalm 2 to describe the same thing in the Hebrew.

My heart's Desire
Oct 21st 2008, 05:41 AM
Paul wrote of the Pre-trib rapture. Then Paul also wrote about the Lord's 2cd coming to earth just as Peter did.

wpm
Oct 21st 2008, 05:44 AM
Paul wrote of the Pre-trib rapture. Then Paul also wrote about the Lord's 2cd coming to earth just as Peter did.

Where did Paul write of the Pre-trib rapture?

Where did Peter or Paul write about this 7yrs trib?

jeffweeder
Oct 21st 2008, 06:40 AM
Hi Hearts desire.

Peter was expressing - and this is the thread, -that Paul was refering to the same things, as one, as to what he was refering to in 2 pet 3,- Paul refers to this in all of his letters about THESE THINGS.

Paul taught according to the lord, (1thess 4) and Peter refered to his original promise (2pet 3) The promise and the word of the Lord= Jn 14..and to come again , recieve them to himself...and to put them in a place that he has prepared for them, that Peter clearly defines as a place of post millenial righteousness in the new heaven and new earth, the place wher all those that have been redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus Christ will dwell.

ananias
Oct 21st 2008, 10:34 AM
As a pre-millennialist, I agree that in 2Peter chapter 3, there is no sign in the mind of Peter of a thousand years between the second coming of Christ (on hand) and the burning up of the present heavens and earth, the GWT judgment, and the ushering in of the new heavens and earth (on the other hand).

But this is the thing - we can't isolate one passage of scripture from the rest of scripture and interpret that passage without reference to the rest of scripture.

(You've all heard the following argument before, so please don't stop after the next two points, and continue to read to the end of this post):

In the context of speaking about (a) the second coming of Christ; and
(b) the beginning of creation and its final end, Peter says:

"But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2Pet.3: 8)

In the Psalms we read,

"For a thousand years in Your sight are as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." (Psa.90: 4)

Now first consider the complete consistency of the pattern of sevens from beginning to end in the Bible, and then note the question which follows it:

1 Seven and completeness:

The Hebrew word SHABA (Strong’s #H7650) means “to be COMPLETE”. It’s the root-word for shabat (H7676) and shib ‛ah (SEVEN – H7651).

The seventh day completes the cycle, and the “eighth” day begins a new cycle (excuse me for stating the obvious!)

Sabbath day = seventh day. Sabbath year = seventh year. The 8th year marks a new beginning (Leviticus chapter 23).

7 x 7 Sabbath-years completes another cycle, and the fiftieth year (the year of Jubilee) marks the beginning of a new cycle (according to some Rabbis, but not according to others).

The same goes for the Day of Pentecost (Pente = 50), which marks a new beginning; because it comes the day after the completion of 7 x 7 days counting from the day after Passover, the day our Lord was crucified.

The Bible opens with a pattern of seven and closes with a book which is saturated with sevens and cycles of seven.

2 Seven and judgment:

The first eight chapters of the book of Genesis follow the first eight perfectly natural divisions of the book; and it is in the SEVENTH division (chapter) of Genesis that we read about God’s judgment for the sins of the world coming upon the world in the form of the flood - the eighth chapter speaks of a new beginning – the ark resting on Mount Ararat, etc. Is this a coincidence? No – and we’ll see why in a moment:

The flood began to be poured out upon the world in the seventh of seven days after Noah had entered the ark (Gen.5: 31; Gen.7: 1-10); and Noah’s father, Lamech (who represents the last generation to have died before the flood) was 777 years old when he died.

Much later on, we read that after the Israelites had marched around the city of Jericho for seven days with seven priests blowing seven trumpets (7,7,7), the city was judged by God at the hand of the Israelites on the seventh day, the seventh time the Israelites had marched around the city, at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (7,7,7 – Joshua 6: 2-5).

And in the same way that in the first book of the Old Testament, we read about God’s judgment for the world’s sins in the SEVENTH chapter and a new beginning in the EIGHTH chapter, so in the first book of the New Testament, the record of God’s judgment for the sins of the world falling upon our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (Isa.53: 6; 2Cor.5: 21) is recorded in the SEVENTH division of Matthew’s gospel, and the EIGHTH division of Matthew’s gospel is the record of a new beginning – His resurrection from the dead on the EIGHTH day.

In the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ (whose crucifixion is recorded in the seventh division of Matthew’s gospel and whose resurrection from the dead on the eighth day is recorded in the eighth division of Matthew’s gospel) is shown to judge the seventh “head” of a seven-headed “beast”…

… at the opening of the seventh of seven seals, the sounding of the seventh of seven trumpets, and the pouring out of the seventh of seven bowls of God’s wrath (7, 7, 7)????

If that’s true, then it means that in each case, this judgment is symbolized by “noises, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake, with the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath adding another symbol of judgment, namely, hail – see Exo.9: 18.

Christ’s judgment of the world recorded in 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl of wrath?? (that's open to debate - but not in this thread)

QUESTION:

(1) Given (a) the complete consistency of the pattern of sevens and sabbaths from beginning to end in the Bible, and (b) the fact that in the context of speaking of the return of Christ, the creation of the world and its final end, Peter says that "one day is as a thousand years with the LORD",

Will it be consistent with, or inconsistent with God's revelation to man if the period from the fall of Adam (Gen.5: 3; Gen.3: 22-24) to the GWT judgment (Rev.20: 11) was a period of 7,000 years - one "week"?

(2) Can we satisfactorily answer that question this side of eternity?

Is this my whole basis for believing in a literal millennium following the second coming of Christ?

No, it certainly isn't - but the other reasons have been debated ad infinitum in other threads in this Forum, and I don't want to hijack this thread by going into those arguments here. Suffice to say that we cannot isolate one passage of scripture from the rest of the Bible and interpret that passage without making reference to the rest of scipture.


ananias

crush
Oct 21st 2008, 12:52 PM
At first glance at the interlinear version of 2 Peter 3:10-12 it seems that there are two separate "days" being spoken about here. The "day of the Lord" in 3:10 and the "day of God" in 3:12. It seems like a lot of the translation of 3:10 was "interpreted" from 3:12.

for example:

In 3:12 "the heavens, being on fire, shall be disolved" seems like a pretty direct "word for word" translation

but in 3:10 where it says, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise" , a more accurate translation would appear to be " the heavens, with a loud noise, shall be drawing near"

In fairness, in both verses, the elements would seem to burn up :confused Still somewhat different though

In 3:10 - the "elements" are on fire but the "earth and her works" aren't "burned up" - they are "discovered" here's how it reads "word for word" - "the elements, yet burning, shall be loosed, and the land [earth] and her works shall be discovered"

In 3:12 - the elements are "burned up"

Here's the link to an online interlinear, if anybody would like to study it for themselves....

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2pe3.pdf

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 01:30 PM
I thought I answered that in the post you responded to. I didn't say anything about any partial burning. What I was trying to say is that I do not believe the burning of the earth occurs at the beginning of the day of the Lord and that the day of the Lord is a longer time than a 24 hour period of timeThe day of the Lord comes (arrives) as a thief in the night. What do you believe that means? How do you come to the conclusion that the burning up of the earth doesn't at least begin at the arrival of the day of the Lord? In 1 Thess 5:1-6 it has to do with Him coming and bringing sudden destruction upon unbelievers. The destruction occurs upon the arrival of the day of the Lord. Why wouldn't 2 Peter 3 be the same way?


Zech 14:8 is an example of where "day" cleary is not referring to a 24 hour period of time.But you're not showing how 2 Peter 3 is using the word in that context. To say that it CAN be used that way is one thing, but you're not at all showing how it is being used in that context in 2 Peter 3.



I do not believe God is saying here that living waters are going to go out of Jerusalem for 24 hours and that's it. Same with verse 9But they began to go out of Jerusalem on a certain day, right? Yet you don't even see the burning up of the earth beginning at the initial arrival of the day of the Lord and instead see it delayed until the end of a long period of time. I believe you are taking 2 Peter 3:10-13 out of context by reading it that way.

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 01:34 PM
So, When does He get to rule the nations with a rod of iron, if they are all burned up at His appearing?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.Do you notice what the smiting of the nations and ruling with a rod of iron is equated to? Treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. What that means is that Christ is not going to rule over them the way an earthly king would. He is going to destroy them. That is what treading the winepress of God's wrath means, as we can see in this passage:

Rev 14
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

David Taylor
Oct 21st 2008, 01:42 PM
So, When does He get to rule the nations with a rod of iron, if they are all burned up at His appearing?

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

What John is doing here, is describing the destruction of the wicked at the Lord's return.

He does it with the winepress of the wrath of God analogy; quoting from the OT book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 62:11 "Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come."

And he also does it with the clay pot being smashed to smithereens by quoting the OT book of Psalms:

Psalms 2:9 "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way"

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 01:44 PM
At first glance at the interlinear version of 2 Peter 3:10-12 it seems that there are two separate "days" being spoken about here. The "day of the Lord" in 3:10 and the "day of God" in 3:12. It seems like a lot of the translation of 3:10 was "interpreted" from 3:12.

for example:

In 3:12 "the heavens, being on fire, shall be disolved" seems like a pretty direct "word for word" translation

but in 3:10 where it says, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise" , a more accurate translation would appear to be " the heavens, with a loud noise, shall be drawing near"

In fairness, in both verses, the elements would seem to burn up :confused Still somewhat different though

In 3:10 - the "elements" are on fire but the "earth and her works" aren't "burned up" - they are "discovered" here's how it reads "word for word" - "the elements, yet burning, shall be loosed, and the land [earth] and her works shall be discovered"

In 3:12 - the elements are "burned up"

Here's the link to an online interlinear, if anybody would like to study it for themselves....

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2pe3.pdfCan you be more specific as to what point exactly you are trying to make in this post? When do you believe the day of the Lord will arrive and how long do you believe it will last?

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 02:05 PM
2nd Peter 3 is largely about the timing of the arrival of Jesus Christ at His second coming. Would anyone here disagree with me on that?

If you agree, then you can see in 2 Peter 3:3-4 that there would be scoffers asking when He was coming since it has been a long time already. In their minds, He is clearly never coming because they figure He would have arrived by now if He was actually coming. But Peter later explains that it hasn't been a long time in God's eyes, which is all that really matters. Peter had just been spending the entire chapter talking about the coming of Christ. Then He says the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. There is other scripture (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15) where Jesus says He is coming as a thief. There is an actual moment in time when He will arrive, agree? Then why would that not be the case for the day of the Lord?

Don't both Peter and Paul directly relate the day of the Lord to the day that Christ returns? I believe they do. What happens that day? The sudden destruction of the wicked to the point where they can't escape (1 Thess 5:1-6) as well as the burning up of even the earth itself (2 Peter 3:10-12). Where do either Peter or Paul indicate at all that the day of the Lord lasts a long time or that the destruction that it brings either lasts a long time or is delayed until the end? Peter implies that it could be a long time, humanly speaking, before it arrives, but gives no indication at all that it will have a long duration once it arrives.

ananias
Oct 21st 2008, 06:23 PM
2nd Peter 3 is largely about the timing of the arrival of Jesus Christ at His second coming. Would anyone here disagree with me on that?

If you agree, then you can see in 2 Peter 3:3-4 that there would be scoffers asking when He was coming since it has been a long time already. In their minds, He is clearly never coming because they figure He would have arrived by now if He was actually coming. But Peter later explains that it hasn't been a long time in God's eyes, which is all that really matters. Peter had just been spending the entire chapter talking about the coming of Christ. Then He says the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. There is other scripture (Matt 24:42-44, Rev 16:15) where Jesus says He is coming as a thief. There is an actual moment in time when He will arrive, agree? Then why would that not be the case for the day of the Lord?

Don't both Peter and Paul directly relate the day of the Lord to the day that Christ returns? I believe they do. What happens that day? The sudden destruction of the wicked to the point where they can't escape (1 Thess 5:1-6) as well as the burning up of even the earth itself (2 Peter 3:10-12). Where do either Peter or Paul indicate at all that the day of the Lord lasts a long time or that the destruction that it brings either lasts a long time or is delayed until the end? Peter implies that it could be a long time, humanly speaking, before it arrives, but gives no indication at all that it will have a long duration once it arrives.

Peter and Paul were Jews who thought with Hebrew mindsets. A large part of the Gentile churches chooses to ignore that fact when interpreting a Jewish book written by Jews (the Bible).

"The Day of the LORD" was linked to the Day of Trumpets even in Peter and Paul's day - and the Day of the LORD was understood to refer to the period of time (be it a day, 5 days or seven days) during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world - specifically, the period from Yom Kippur to the Feast of Taberncales (5 days), but beginning on the Day of Trumpets (10 days prior to Yom Kippur). These are "the days of awe" in the Hebrew thought - and it was the case even in Jesus' day.

The imagery accompanying the description of the day God judges the nations of this world is just that - imagery. Christians make it mean more than what it says.

The treading of the windepress is describing the totality of Christ's judgment of the nations that will (by then) have gathered aganst Israel and Jerusalem - this is why the prophecy specifically mentions the Messiah coming from Edom and Bozrah with His garments dipped in blood, having tread the winepress of God's wrath alone, since no other nations were willing to help Him defend Israel's cause. This prophecy is also repeated in Ezekiel chapter 35 and other passages in a number of other places in the Bible, and the prophecy refers, ultimately, to "the Day of the LORD".

To Jesus, Peter and Paul, any prior period of the judgment of the nations of this world (such as the judgment of Jericho, and of Assyria, and of Babylon, and of Tyre and Sidon, and of Sodom and Gomorrah), are all like practice-runs for the one and ultimate "Day of the LORD", which refers to the day of God's judgment of the nations and is (and always has been) linked to the day the armies of all "the nations" gather against Israel and Jerusalem. This is why Jer.30: 7 calls it "the time of Jacob's trouble" and says that Jacob will be saved out of it.

But Gentile Christians have found it neccessary to do away with the Jewish understanding of a Jewish book (the Bible), and therefore have had to arbitrarily divide all the prophecies that refer to "the Day of the LORD" into (already fulfilled) "Days of the LORD", and into a (yet to be fulfilled) "Day of the LORD". It's no wonder there's so much confusion!

Of course, being dogmatic about these things isn't going to lead anyone to the truth if one's understanding and interpretation of the Bible's prophetic scriptures isn't according to the truth - therefore I choose to remain completely stupid as to whether or not I understand these things correctly.

Praise God, His Kingdom is coming - no matter how we understand that post second-coming-of-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ Kingdom.
ananias

crush
Oct 21st 2008, 07:18 PM
Can you be more specific as to what point exactly you are trying to make in this post? When do you believe the day of the Lord will arrive and how long do you believe it will last?

2nd Peter 3 is largely about the timing of the arrival of Jesus Christ at His second coming. Would anyone here disagree with me on that?



Sorry about that. It seems to me that 3:10 is speaking about the "Day of the Lord", the Day of Christ's second coming. And it seems that verse 3:12 is speaking of an entirely different event, "the Day of God", which could occur 1000 years after Christ's second coming.

3:10 "the day of the Lord" doesn't appear to be total destruction of the earth and heavens, whereas 3:12 "the day of God" does appear to be total destruction.

It wouldn't suprise me if translators "borrowed" some of the imagery from 3:12 for 3:10 thinking both verses were describing the "same event". For certain, reading from the interlinear gives a totally different picture.

Here is the way I read both verses from the interlinear....

2 peter 3:10 - The day of the Lord shall come as a thief in which the heavens shall draw near with a loud noise and the burning elements shall be loosed and the earth and her works will be discovered.

The translation of 3:12 seems to be accurate in the KJV and other versions as written

2 peter 3:12 - Being diligent and hoping for the day of God, in which the heavens, being on fire, shall be loosed and by burning the elements will be melted.

From Peter's perspective, and every believer that dies before the GT, the hope we have isn't in Christ's second coming, it is being raised on the "last day" - to enter the city of NJ after "the heavens and earth have passed away". So understandably, the main focus of his "hope" would be on "the day of God" rather than "the day of the Lord".

I believe that Rev 21 is speaking about the "day of God", where the heavens and earth pass away and God comes down to dwell with men. This occurs after the 1000 year reign of Christ, and 1000 years after the "day of the Lord".

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 08:12 PM
Peter and Paul were Jews who thought with Hebrew mindsets. A large part of the Gentile churches chooses to ignore that fact when interpreting a Jewish book written by Jews (the Bible).The Holy Spirit who inspired Peter and Paul to write their books is neither Jew nor Gentile. Also, the book of 1 Thessalonians was written to the church of the Thessalonians, which obviously included Gentile believers. The book of 2 Peter was written to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".


"The Day of the LORD" was linked to the Day of Trumpets even in Peter and Paul's day - and the Day of the LORD was understood to refer to the period of time (be it a day, 5 days or seven days) during which God's wrath will be poured out upon the world - specifically, the period from Yom Kippur to the Feast of Taberncales (5 days), but beginning on the Day of Trumpets (10 days prior to Yom Kippur). These are "the days of awe" in the Hebrew thought - and it was the case even in Jesus' day. Show me the scripture that backs up what you're saying here.


The imagery accompanying the description of the day God judges the nations of this world is just that - imagery. Christians make it mean more than what it says.

The treading of the windepress is describing the totality of Christ's judgment of the nations that will (by then) have gathered aganst Israel and Jerusalem - this is why the prophecy specifically mentions the Messiah coming from Edom and Bozrah with His garments dipped in blood, having tread the winepress of God's wrath alone, since no other nations were willing to help Him defend Israel's cause. This prophecy is also repeated in Ezekiel chapter 35 and other passages in a number of other places in the Bible, and the prophecy refers, ultimately, to "the Day of the LORD".

To Jesus, Peter and Paul, any prior period of the judgment of the nations of this world (such as the judgment of Jericho, and of Assyria, and of Babylon, and of Tyre and Sidon, and of Sodom and Gomorrah), are all like practice-runs for the one and ultimate "Day of the LORD", which refers to the day of God's judgment of the nations and is (and always has been) linked to the day the armies of all "the nations" gather against Israel and Jerusalem. This is why Jer.30: 7 calls it "the time of Jacob's trouble" and says that Jacob will be saved out of it.

But Gentile Christians have found it neccessary to do away with the Jewish understanding of a Jewish book (the Bible),The Bible is not a Jewish book. It is neither a Jewish book nor a Gentile book. It is written for God's people which includes Jews and Gentiles.


and therefore have had to arbitrarily divide all the prophecies that refer to "the Day of the LORD" into (already fulfilled) "Days of the LORD", and into a (yet to be fulfilled) "Day of the LORD". It's no wonder there's so much confusion!You aren't exactly helping clear up any confusion, IMO.


Of course, being dogmatic about these things isn't going to lead anyone to the truth if one's understanding and interpretation of the Bible's prophetic scriptures isn't according to the truth - therefore I choose to remain completely stupid as to whether or not I understand these things correctly.

Praise God, His Kingdom is coming - no matter how we understand that post second-coming-of-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ Kingdom.
ananiasYou went from coming across as being very dogmatic to this. Okay. ;)

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 08:26 PM
Sorry about that. It seems to me that 3:10 is speaking about the "Day of the Lord", the Day of Christ's second coming. And it seems that verse 3:12 is speaking of an entirely different event, "the Day of God", which could occur 1000 years after Christ's second coming.

3:10 "the day of the Lord" doesn't appear to be total destruction of the earth and heavens, whereas 3:12 "the day of God" does appear to be total destruction.

It wouldn't suprise me if translators "borrowed" some of the imagery from 3:12 for 3:10 thinking both verses were describing the "same event". For certain, reading from the interlinear gives a totally different picture.

Here is the way I read both verses from the interlinear....

2 peter 3:10 - The day of the Lord shall come as a thief in which the heavens shall draw near with a loud noise and the burning elements shall be loosed and the earth and her works will be discovered.

The translation of 3:12 seems to be accurate in the KJV and other versions as written

2 peter 3:12 - Being diligent and hoping for the day of God, in which the heavens, being on fire, shall be loosed and by burning the elements will be melted.I couldn't disagree with you more. I believe he is clearly referring to the same day in each case. I can't see what you're seeing at all. I don't see that what he describes in verse 10 is any different than what is described in verse 12.


From Peter's perspective, and every believer that dies before the GT, the hope we have isn't in Christ's second coming, it is being raised on the "last day" - to enter the city of NJ after "the heavens and earth have passed away". So understandably, the main focus of his "hope" would be on "the day of God" rather than "the day of the Lord".I believe Peter is pointing out that the second coming of Christ will occur on the last day. I'm sure Peter wasn't looking past that blessed hope of "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Our hope is the second coming of Christ and all that comes with it, which, according to Peter, includes the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.


I believe that Rev 21 is speaking about the "day of God", where the heavens and earth pass away and God comes down to dwell with men. This occurs after the 1000 year reign of Christ, and 1000 years after the "day of the Lord".There is no difference between the day of the Lord and the day of God. That appears to be a doctrine that you hold all to yourself. Here is a passage that equates the day of God with the second coming of Christ:

Rev 16
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Do you not believe that Christ will come on "that great day of God Almighty"?

crush
Oct 21st 2008, 09:25 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. I believe he is clearly referring to the same day in each case. I can't see what you're seeing at all. I don't see that what he describes in verse 10 is any different than what is described in verse 12.
Yes, if you are reading from KJV or other popular translation you will not see any difference. This is why I gave the link to the online interlinear, so you can see for yourself the differences. Here it is again.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/2pe3.pdf (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2pe3.pdf)

For example, you can notice that the KJV version of verse 10 says "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

"shall be burned up" is a blatant mistranslation. The original greek used here is:

G2147. heurisko hyoo-ris'-ko, a prolonged form of a primary heuro hyoo'-ro, which (together with another cognate form) heureo hyoo-reh'-o is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect to find (literally or figuratively):--find, get, obtain, perceive, see.




I believe Peter is pointing out that the second coming of Christ will occur on the last day. I'm sure Peter wasn't looking past that blessed hope of "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Our hope is the second coming of Christ and all that comes with it, which, according to Peter, includes the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth.Fortunately we don't have to guess as to what Peter is hoping for, he answers the question in verse 2 peter 3:13

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I understand this means something different to you than it does to me since you believe that the earth will be destroyed at Christ's second Coming.


There is no difference between the day of the Lord and the day of God. That appears to be a doctrine that you hold all to yourself. Here is a passage that equates the day of God with the second coming of Christ:

Rev 16
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Do you not believe that Christ will come on "that great day of God Almighty"?Yes Jesus will come on this "Great day of Battle" of God Almighty. This is the Battle of Armageddon. Zec 14:3 makes it clear that this is the "Lord's Day of Battle" though, and also makes it clear that the world doesn't end at this time.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle

"God Almighty's" name is invoked probably because judgment comes down from heaven, as it also does in this battle.

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven....

But this is a localized event and not worldwide, otherwise there would have been no need to gather the Beast and his followers to the valley, and the battle of Zec 14:3 couldn't follow the "day of battle" of Rev 16 if the world was destroyed.

ananias
Oct 21st 2008, 09:57 PM
You went from coming across as being very dogmatic to this. Okay. ;)



:hmm: I've come to the point where I can maintain my position which is produced by my understanding of the scriptures (and therefore come across as dogmatic), and yet I'm still open-minded enough to know that the guy who disagrees with me may be right and me, wrong.

I'm convinced that my understanding is correct, but I'm not convinced that the understanding of the person who disagrees with me is neccessarily incorrect, so I'm still not convinced. :monkeyd:

Maybe you don't understand that, but that's how I feel.


The Holy Spirit who inspired Peter and Paul to write their books is neither Jew nor Gentile. Also, the book of 1 Thessalonians was written to the church of the Thessalonians, which obviously included Gentile believers. The book of 2 Peter was written to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".



The Holy Spirit who inspired Peter and Paul to write their books isthe same Holy Spirit who inspired Moses to write down the Sabbath-day, Sabbath-year and Festival cycles, which the book of Revelation and the New Testament draw from heavily. He is the same Holy Spirit who inspired the culture which shaped Peter and Paul's way of thinking, and Jesus is before Abraham and Moses.




Show me the scripture that backs up what you're saying here.



"... in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed." (1Cor.15: 52)

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." (Rev.11: 15)

(the above are direct references to the Day of Trumpets, and there are others, besides).

"And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you,
whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began." (Act.3: 20-21)

(The above is a direct reference to the Jubilee year)




The Bible is not a Jewish book. It is neither a Jewish book nor a Gentile book. It is written for God's people which includes Jews and Gentiles.



64 of the Bible's 66 books were written by Jews. I'd call it a Jewish book. Gentiles are included among God's people - but only those who are grafted in among God's Jewish remnant.




You aren't exactly helping clear up any confusion, IMO.



That's because you can't see what I and many thousands of others see :B ;)

And you know what? At the end of the day, I still keep my mind open to listen to what you say, because I prefer to hang onto the belief that you may be right, and I may be wrong, after all.

God bless,
:wave: ananias

Marc B
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:21 AM
Yes, if you are reading from KJV or other popular translation you will not see any difference. This is why I gave the link to the online interlinear, so you can see for yourself the differences. Here it is again.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/2pe3.pdf (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2pe3.pdf)

For example, you can notice that the KJV version of verse 10 says "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

"shall be burned up" is a blatant mistranslation. The original greek used here is:

G2147. heurisko hyoo-ris'-ko, a prolonged form of a primary heuro hyoo'-ro, which (together with another cognate form) heureo hyoo-reh'-o is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect to find (literally or figuratively):--find, get, obtain, perceive, see.



Fortunately we don't have to guess as to what Peter is hoping for, he answers the question in verse 2 peter 3:13

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I understand this means something different to you than it does to me since you believe that the earth will be destroyed at Christ's second Coming.

Yes Jesus will come on this "Great day of Battle" of God Almighty. This is the Battle of Armageddon. Zec 14:3 makes it clear that this is the "Lord's Day of Battle" though, and also makes it clear that the world doesn't end at this time.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle

"God Almighty's" name is invoked probably because judgment comes down from heaven, as it also does in this battle.

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven....

But this is a localized event and not worldwide, otherwise there would have been no need to gather the Beast and his followers to the valley, and the battle of Zec 14:3 couldn't follow the "day of battle" of Rev 16 if the world was destroyed.

I agree. The final battle of armegeddon between Jesus with His army against the beast power and it's armies of 200 million will be in the valley of Megiddo [Har Megeddon]. The Euphrates river will dry up to make way for them to cross into Megiddo from the east. The following millenium is a time of restoration and healing without Satan's influence.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:02 PM
Yes, if you are reading from KJV or other popular translation you will not see any difference. This is why I gave the link to the online interlinear, so you can see for yourself the differences. Here it is again.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/2pe3.pdf (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2pe3.pdf)

For example, you can notice that the KJV version of verse 10 says "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"

"shall be burned up" is a blatant mistranslation. The original greek used here is:

G2147. heurisko hyoo-ris'-ko, a prolonged form of a primary heuro hyoo'-ro, which (together with another cognate form) heureo hyoo-reh'-o is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect to find (literally or figuratively):--find, get, obtain, perceive, see.That doesn't change anything. It's a huge reach to suggest that the day of the Lord and the day of God are not referring to the same thing.


Fortunately we don't have to guess as to what Peter is hoping for, he answers the question in verse 2 peter 3:13

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I understand this means something different to you than it does to me since you believe that the earth will be destroyed at Christ's second Coming.Why do you suppose that Peter would not have said we are looking forward to the supposed earthly millennial kingdom? Was he not looking forward to that or did he not know of such a thing? I side with the latter option.


Yes Jesus will come on this "Great day of Battle" of God Almighty. This is the Battle of Armageddon. Zec 14:3 makes it clear that this is the "Lord's Day of Battle" though, and also makes it clear that the world doesn't end at this time.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battleNotice that the day of battle mentioned there was a past battle. This verse doesn't support your case at all.


"God Almighty's" name is invoked probably because judgment comes down from heaven, as it also does in this battle.

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven....

But this is a localized event and not worldwide, otherwise there would have been no need to gather the Beast and his followers to the valley, and the battle of Zec 14:3 couldn't follow the "day of battle" of Rev 16 if the world was destroyed.Now you're saying the day of God and the day of God Almighty are not the same. Sorry, but I find your methods of interpretation to be inconsistent and confusing.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:25 PM
:hmm: I've come to the point where I can maintain my position which is produced by my understanding of the scriptures (and therefore come across as dogmatic), and yet I'm still open-minded enough to know that the guy who disagrees with me may be right and me, wrong.

I'm convinced that my understanding is correct, but I'm not convinced that the understanding of the person who disagrees with me is neccessarily incorrect, so I'm still not convinced. :monkeyd:

Maybe you don't understand that, but that's how I feel.I don't mind disagreement. I know it's not reasonable that we will agree on everything.


The Holy Spirit who inspired Peter and Paul to write their books isthe same Holy Spirit who inspired Moses to write down the Sabbath-day, Sabbath-year and Festival cycles, which the book of Revelation and the New Testament draw from heavily. He is the same Holy Spirit who inspired the culture which shaped Peter and Paul's way of thinking, and Jesus is before Abraham and Moses.When they wrote their letters, Peter and Paul's way of thinking was not Jewish, but rather Christian. Again, the Holy Spirit is neither Jew nor Gentile.


"... in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed." (1Cor.15: 52)

"And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." (Rev.11: 15)

(the above are direct references to the Day of Trumpets, and there are others, besides).

"And He shall send Jesus Christ, who before was proclaimed to you,
whom Heaven truly needs to receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began." (Act.3: 20-21)

(The above is a direct reference to the Jubilee year) If you're saying that Christ returns at the seventh and last trumpet, then I agree.


64 of the Bible's 66 books were written by Jews. I'd call it a Jewish book. Gentiles are included among God's people - but only those who are grafted in among God's Jewish remnant.All 66 books were inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is a spiritual Jewish book. All believers are spiritual Jews (Rom 2:28-29). You make it seem as though you believe Gentile believers are inferior to Jewish believers. But scripture says there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ and there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.


That's because you can't see what I and many thousands of others see :B ;)I can see what you believe. I just happen to strongly disagree with it. ;)



And you know what? At the end of the day, I still keep my mind open to listen to what you say, because I prefer to hang onto the belief that you may be right, and I may be wrong, after all.

God bless,
:wave: ananiasThat's good. Same here. I certainly am not likely to ever agree with you on this particular issue, but I do have an open mind to what others have to say regarding scripture.

crush
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:41 PM
That doesn't change anything. It's a huge reach to suggest that the day of the Lord and the day of God are not referring to the same thing.


So you don't see any difference between "the earth and everything in it being burned up" and "the earth and everything in it being found, gotten, obtained, perceived, or seen"?

Or no difference between "the heavens passing away" and "the heavens drawing near"?

really???


Why do you suppose that Peter would not have said we are looking forward to the supposed earthly millennial kingdom? Was he not looking forward to that or did he not know of such a thing? I side with the latter option.He was not looking forward to it because he will not be part of it. I side with the former option.

Peter will not live through or die during the GT. So he will not see the millennial kingdom. Peter is dead. Rev 20:4 is clear that only believers that die (are martyred) during the GT will be raised in the "first resurrection" prior to the millenium. "The rest of the dead", including Peter, don't live again until the 1000 years is over.


Notice that the day of battle mentioned there was a past battle. This verse doesn't support your case at all.
Now you're saying the day of God and the day of God Almighty are not the same. Sorry, but I find your methods of interpretation to be inconsistent and confusing.The battle of Zech 14 is a future battle in Jerusalem. We know it is future because during this battle the Lord will split the Mt. of Olives in half, and the Mt. of Olives is not split in half right now.

This future battle in Jerusalem is compared to the battle of Armageddon (the Lord's "day of battle" of Rev 16). Both battles are "future" to us, but at the time of the battle of Zech 14, the battle of Armageddon will be a historical (past) battle.

I understand how this could be confusing, but this is very good evidence, when understood, that the earth isn't destroyed at the Battle of Armageddon, otherwise the battle of Zech 14:3 could not be fought.

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:57 PM
So you don't see any difference between "the earth and everything in it being burned up" and "the earth and everything in it being found, gotten, obtained, perceived, or seen"?

Or no difference between "the heavens passing away" and "the heavens drawing near"?

really???Really. I believe you are really reaching here. I believe you are grasping at straws to try to keep your view afloat. That's my opinion. If you disagree, that's fine. The day of the Lord and the day of God both refer to the same event. In 2 Thess 2:2 it is called the day of Christ. It's the same event: the return of Christ, the gathering of believers to Himself, the destruction of the wicked (as described in 1 Thess 5:1-6) and the burning up of the heavens and the earth.


He was not looking forward to it because he will not be part of it. I side with the former option.

Peter will not live through or die during the GT. So he will not see the millennial kingdom. Peter is dead. Rev 20:4 is clear that only believers that die (are martyred) during the GT will be raised in the "first resurrection" prior to the millenium. "The rest of the dead", including Peter, don't live again until the 1000 years is over. The only problem is that Rev. 20 doesn't say anything about people being physically raised from the dead as will occur at the general resurrection of the dead when Christ returns. It only speaks of the souls of the dead in Christ living and reigning with Him. Scripture teaches that all the dead, both the just and unjust, will be resurrected and judged/rewarded at the same time (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15, Matt 13:24-30,36-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46).

Also, it doesn't say that only people who are alive during a brief "great tribulation" period will reign with Him, either. The beast has been around a long time already, according to Rev 17:8 ("the beast that was, is not, and yet is"), so believers have been refusing to worship the beast for a long time.


The battle of Zech 14 is a future battle in Jerusalem. We know it is future because during this battle the Lord will split the Mt. of Olives in half, and the Mt. of Olives is not split in half right now.I don't believe that passage is meant to be taken literally like that. The book of Zechariah, like all biblical books of prophecy, contains a good deal of symbolic language. Jesus already stood on the Mount of Olives. The split is symbolic for the fact that Jesus came not to bring peace to the earth, but a sword.

Matthew 10
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
40He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


This future battle in Jerusalem is compared to the battle of Armageddon (the Lord's "day of battle" of Rev 16). Both battles are "future" to us, but at the time of the battle of Zech 14, the battle of Armageddon will be a historical (past) battle.

I understand how this could be confusing, but this is very good evidence, when understood, that the earth isn't destroyed at the Battle of Armageddon, otherwise the battle of Zech 14:3 could not be fought.The battle portrayed in Revelation is spiritual in nature. It is the battle over people's souls. In the book of Revelation, physical locations of OT places are used to illustrate spiritual truths. We see this in Rev 11:8 which compares the "great city" to Sodom and Egypt. It also calls that great city Babylon. It's not meant to be understood as the literal city of Babylon. In Rev 20:7-9, Gog and Magog are used in reference to all the nations of the earth, which is different than what it says about the real Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38-39.

Similarly, Armageddon is a symbolic reference to the spiritual battlefield of the entire earth. Did you know that the real valley of Megiddo is only about 20 squares miles? Yet people think that hundreds of millions of people will be gathering there for a physical battle? That isn't even reasonable, IMO. There wouldn't even be room for that many people there.

jeffweeder
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:42 PM
Peter will not live through or die during the GT. So he will not see the millennial kingdom. Peter is dead. Rev 20:4 is clear that only believers that die (are martyred) during the GT will be raised in the "first resurrection" prior to the millenium. "The rest of the dead", including Peter, don't live again until the 1000 years is over.

Rev 7 shows you those who came out of the GT, and nobody can count them.
The thing is that this is a vision of the GWT, where God wipes away tears from all faces.
There is no mention here either of people coming out of the millenium, but they come out of the GT and find themselves risen and standing before God at the judgement.
It is appointed that all men die once ,and after this comes judgement.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

crush
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:00 AM
Rev 7 shows you those who came out of the GT, and nobody can count them.
It will be a large number of people killed for their testimony during the GT I would imagine. Will that number be infinite or uncountable? No. But neither would the number of people throughout history that stand before the GWT. So I really don't see your point? I mean you have to be IN the GT to come OUT of it, right? So this just seems to further identify who these people are to me.

Maybe the "no man could number" statement was more to identify who they are instead of identifying how many there are. Rev 12:4 says......the dragon stood before the woman, or the decoded version, "Satan stood before Israel". Last time he "stood before Israel" he caused David (a man) to "number" the Israelites.

1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel

So it could be just referencing the fact that Satan wasn't able to cause a man (the Beast in this case) to "number" them. It certainly can't mean that the number of them is so large that it is impossible to count them all I wouldn't think. *shrugs*


The thing is that this is a vision of the GWT, where God wipes away tears from all faces.wiping tears from faces automatically means GWT day? I don't understand your point here.


There is no mention here either of people coming out of the millenium, but they come out of the GT and find themselves risen and standing before God at the judgement.The millenium hasn't started yet, at this time, so it would be pretty impossible for someone to "come out" of something that doesn't exist yet.


It is appointed that all men die once ,and after this comes judgement.I agree that everyone who dies, or is alive at Christ's coming must be judged, whether they are wicked or good. There is no way around that. This is further support that ONLY those martyred during the GT and those believers faithful until Christ's coming are eligible to be granted eternal life "early", because arrangements have been made for this.

The GT is pretty much the same as opening the "book of life". Everyone that isn't in the book will worship the beast, and everyone that is in the book will not. So Rev 13:8 is a good clue of how judgment is determined 1000 years before the "book of life" is actually opened at the GWT.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

To recieve eternal life you must also "be faithful until the end". Whether that "end" is your own death, as in the case of the martyrs, or whether the "end" is Christ's second coming, as is the case with the faithful servants.

It's pretty easy to determine if the martyrs are faithful until the end. Since "the testimony of Jesus" is the cause of their actual death. They are given eternal life plain and simple.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Furthermore Revelations gives us two "special" blessings. One for the martyrs and one for the bondservants who are alive and faithful until Christ's coming.

for the martyrs of the GT - Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

So after the warning about not recieving the "mark of the beast" and prior to the proclamation that the "earth is ready to reap" a special blessing is issued for those that "die in Christ".

for the faithful servants of the GT - Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This blessing goes out just prior to Christ's second coming, and the battle of Armageddon.

It's tougher to determine who among the living faithful is deserving of eternal life at Christ's second coming. But there are plenty of parables to pick from that cover how this is done. The criteria of how the living worthy servants are distinguished from the unworthy ones is also pretty simple though. You just have to be doing good at the exact time that Christ returns. So if you can somehow stay alive through the GT, don't worship the Beast or recieve the mark, and watch and are faithful until Christ returns you made it and you will be "caught up".

Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

And invited to the wedding supper...

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God

all the other dead stay in the ground and are resurrected to GWT judgment day, after the 1000 years, on the "last day"

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

jeffweeder
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:53 AM
Hi Crush

What i am saying is the enormous crowd before the throne in rev 7 is the GWT scene.



REV 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."




REV 7
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."


Rev 21 above is what Peter is looking to in the opening thread, he sees Christ coming and the heavens and the earth being destroyed..
He speaks of no millenium period here and rev 7 does the same thing.
It shows that enormous crowd coming out of the great trib and for that reason they stand before him at the GWT, with no hint of a millenial interlude, from the GT to the throne of God.

I believe that Jesus told us when the days of GT started--Matt 24 , lk 21.
Matthews GT is Lukes days of vengeance, and those days started with the desolation of Jerusalem and their exile to the nations.


lk 21
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognise that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

matt 24
"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

So the GT is the whole period of the Gospel era, which may explain why this crowd cannot be counted.
All who stand before the throne have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb and this started at pentecost.

crush
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:33 AM
Hi Crush

What i am saying is the enormous crowd before the throne in rev 7 is the GWT scene.

We are told exactly who the enormous crowd is in Rev 7. They are "those that have come out of the Great Tribulation".

If you believe that this is GWT day, you have a problem. Everybody else who wasn't in the GT is missing.

Even if you believe that the GT lasts 2000+ years [which it doesn't] you still have 4000 years of human history that isn't standing before the throne.

Do they just not get resurrected?


Rev 21 above is what Peter is looking to in the opening thread, he sees Christ coming and the heavens and the earth being destroyed..The heavens and earth are not destroyed at Christ's second coming. Christ will rule the Earth from Jerusalem for 1000 years. There is ample evidence of this throughout the scriptures.

What 2 Peter 3:10 says of Christ's coming is that the "Heavens will draw near"
Which makes sense because all angels, saints, and Jesus himself are emptied out of Heaven and come "near" the Earth. Meet in the Air.

And the "Earth will be obtained" - Jesus will win the earth from Satan by defeating him in battle.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Otherwise if Peter is saying that the Heavens and Earth will be destroyed in 3:10 and then says that the Heavens and Earth will be destroyed in 3:12, are we supposed to believe that the Heavens and Earth are destroyed twice in succession? What is the point of him repeating himself exactly?

A word study of 2 Peter 3:10 will show that the "heavens and Earth" are not destroyed at Christ's second coming, or during "the day of the Lord".


He speaks of no millenium period here and rev 7 does the same thing.
It shows that enormous crowd coming out of the great trib and for that reason they stand before him at the GWT, with no hint of a millenial interlude, from the GT to the throne of God.The scene in Rev 7 is prior to Christ's second coming. The one's standing before the throne are the dead that have been killed during the GT. This is prior to the "first resurrection" and prior to the millenium.

Because Peter leaves something out doesn't mean it doesn't happen? I really don't get this method of interpretation you are using here. John gives us a clear timeline of events in Rev 20. There is 1000 years between the "first resurrection" and the "rest of the dead" resurrection. So to ignore such a plain prophecy because it's seemingly "left out" by Peter doesn't seem rational.


I believe that Jesus told us when the days of GT started--Matt 24 , lk 21.
Matthews GT is Lukes days of vengeance, and those days started with the desolation of Jerusalem and their exile to the nations.


So the GT is the whole period of the Gospel era, which may explain why this crowd cannot be counted.
All who stand before the throne have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb and this started at pentecost.The GT doesn't last 2000+ years...it last 3 1/2 years.

It begins in Matt 24:15 with the AofD and ends with Christ's second coming....

matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet

We can then flip over to Daniel and find out exactly how long it is between the Abomination of Desolation and Christ's second coming

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

1290 days are quite a bit different than 2000+ years.....

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:19 PM
all the other dead stay in the ground and are resurrected to GWT judgment day, after the 1000 years, on the "last day"

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.Those verses refer to all people. In John 6:54, Jesus is saying that all believers who have eternal life will be resurrected on the last day. Likewise, Jesus is saying in John 12:48 that all unbelievers who have rejected Him will be judged on the last day. This shows that all the dead, both saved and lost, will be resurrected on the last day with the unbelievers being condemned on that day. This is what scripture also teaches elsewhere in passages like Daniel 12:1-2, Matthew 13:24-30,36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29.

My heart's Desire
Oct 24th 2008, 05:31 AM
Did you know that the real valley of Megiddo is only about 20 squares miles? Yet people think that hundreds of millions of people will be gathering there for a physical battle? That isn't even reasonable, IMO. There wouldn't even be room for that many people there.
From what I gather from some site, Megiddo is only part of the larger Jezreel Valley and indeed Historians do say many, many battles have been fought there. The Valley looks massive to me. They say it was a natural staging place for armies, yet many will say that the actual battle is fought in the Valley of Jehoshaphat as the Book of Joel mentions. Anyway, it was very interesting reading about Megiddo. I wonder how many people are actually left to be in the armies after all the judgments of the Tribulations have already occured by then and Millions and Millions have already perished by this time.

jeffweeder
Oct 24th 2008, 11:24 PM
Otherwise if Peter is saying that the Heavens and Earth will be destroyed in 3:10 and then says that the Heavens and Earth will be destroyed in 3:12, are we supposed to believe that the Heavens and Earth are destroyed twice in succession? What is the point of him repeating himself exactly?

He is refering to what Jesus said about his coming being like the days of Noah,- how only a few escaped and the rest were lost.
Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my promise wont...



3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So we have the promise of the lord to come, being welded together with the days of Noah, and that day being for fire, instead of water.

Not only will the earth be destroyed, but also the heavens this time.

Peter repeats himself for emphasis--What kind of people ought you to be as we look to a New heaven and Earth,because this the days of Noah again, all are going to die and be judged who dont belong to Christ.

So brethen seeing as we know that when Christ comes,things will be destroyed, just like in Noahs day, what kind of person should you be--as we look for the new Heaven and new Earth and the place he has gone to prepare for us--The home of righteousness in the Fathers House.

Seeing as Peter places this day of Christ at the Judgement and destruction of the universe, makes him an Amillenialist.

Jesus also puts his coming at the time that heaven and earth pass away being like the Days of Noah and him coming with his reward and to render to everyman what he had done on the last day.

He ressurects us on this last day and according to the scriptures the dead do not rise until the Heavens are no more


JOB 14
"But man dies and lies prostrate.
Man expires, and where is he?
11 "As water evaporates from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dried up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
13 "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol,
That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,
That You would set a limit for me and remember me!
14 "If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my struggle I will wait
Until my change comes.


I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

crush
Oct 25th 2008, 01:02 AM
He is refering to what Jesus said about his coming being like the days of Noah,- how only a few escaped and the rest were lost.
Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my promise wont...


So we have the promise of the lord to come, being welded together with the days of Noah, and that day being for fire, instead of water.

Not only will the earth be destroyed, but also the heavens this time.

Peter repeats himself for emphasis--What kind of people ought you to be as we look to a New heaven and Earth,because this the days of Noah again, all are going to die and be judged who dont belong to Christ.

So brethen seeing as we know that when Christ comes,things will be destroyed, just like in Noahs day, what kind of person should you be--as we look for the new Heaven and new Earth and the place he has gone to prepare for us--The home of righteousness in the Fathers House.

Seeing as Peter places this day of Christ at the Judgement and destruction of the universe, makes him an Amillenialist.

Jesus also puts his coming at the time that heaven and earth pass away being like the Days of Noah and him coming with his reward and to render to everyman what he had done on the last day.

He ressurects us on this last day and according to the scriptures the dead do not rise until the Heavens are no more

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

Well I completely disagree with your synopsis of this chapter.

Peter warns us to not be like the "scoffers" in the Days of Noah, who didn't realize that God had water stored up in reserve to destroy the world.....that's it, you are adding all the other comparisons to the "days of Noah" yourself....

Peter wants us to know that God destroyed the world before, and he will do it again.

That is the whole point of the chapter, to let us know that God has "fiery elements" in reserve for judgment. And, yes, he will use these elements to destroy the world, but not at the time of Christ's second coming.

On the "Lord's day" [3:10] Peter tells us that, yes, some of these elements will be used for judgment, to "obtain" or win the battle for the world. But the earth is not destroyed at this time. Much in the same way that fire was brought down from heaven to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. This time it will be focused against the armies in the valley of Megiddo.

Then in 3:11 - Peter is saying - see, I told ya! God has fiery elements that he can use against us, so we should do what he says and live holy lives.

Then, on "God's day" [3:12] Peter is saying that God will use these "fiery elements" to destroy the heavens and the earth completely, but we shouldn't worry too much, because he will create a new heaven and earth where only righteous people will live.

There is 1000 years between 3:10 and 3:12......Peter is not an amill, he is just a victim of poor translation and interpretation.

jeffweeder
Oct 25th 2008, 01:53 AM
There is 1000 years between 3:10 and 3:12



But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!


13 But according to His promise ( of his coming) we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

They scoff because they think he is taking to long to come.
He aint slow, because a day is like a thousand years with God. God doesnt want anyone to perish on this day of judgement, but he is patient till everyone hears the gospel properly and this is how we can hasten that day.


Well I completely disagree with your synopsis of this chapter.
Thats ok, thanks for your contribution.

crush
Oct 25th 2008, 02:18 AM
.
Thats ok, thanks for your contribution.

You're welcome. I'd encourage you and the other amills to do a word for word study of the original greek, because the scripture that you keep quoting as *proof* that the world is destroyed at Christ's second coming isn't translated correctly, at all.


3:10 SHALL-BE-ARRIVING YET DAY OF-Master AS thief IN WHICH THE heavens with-a-booming-noise SHALL-BE-BESIDE-COMING, elements YET BURNING SHALL-BE-BEING-LOOSED AND LAND AND THE ACTS IN IT SHALL-BE-BEING-OBTAINED

3:11 OF-these beING-LOOSED -where-FROM IS-BINDING TO-BE-belongING
YOU IN HOLY UP-TURNings (behaviors) AND devoutness

3:12 TOWARD-SEEMING ANDbeING-DILIGENT THE BESIDE-BEING Day OF-THE God THRU WHICH heavens being-on-fire shall-be-being-dissolved
AND elements BURNING IS-beING-MELTED

wpm
Oct 25th 2008, 02:57 AM
You're welcome. I'd encourage you and the other amills to do a word for word study of the original greek, because the scripture that you keep quoting as *proof* that the world is destroyed at Christ's second coming isn't translated correctly, at all.


3:10 SHALL-BE-ARRIVING YET DAY OF-Master AS thief IN WHICH THE heavens with-a-booming-noise SHALL-BE-BESIDE-COMING, elements YET BURNING SHALL-BE-BEING-LOOSED AND LAND AND THE ACTS IN IT SHALL-BE-BEING-OBTAINED

3:11 OF-these beING-LOOSED -where-FROM IS-BINDING TO-BE-belongING
YOU IN HOLY UP-TURNings (behaviors) AND devoutness

3:12 TOWARD-SEEMING ANDbeING-DILIGENT THE BESIDE-BEING Day OF-THE God THRU WHICH heavens being-on-fire shall-be-being-dissolved
AND elements BURNING IS-beING-MELTED

2 Peter 3:10-13 confirms, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pareleusontai (or) go or pass away, or perish with a great noise, and the elements shall kausoumena lutheesetai (or) be loosed by being set on fire, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be katakakeesetai (or) burned up utterly or consumed wholly. Seeing then that all these things shall be luomenoon (or) dissolved, loosened or broke up … Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be lutheesontai (or) dissolved, melted or loosed, and the elements shall kausoumena teeketai (or) melt by being set on fire? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be UTTERLY burned up or WHOLLY consumed. The same word is used by Christ in Matthew 3:12, when he says of the wicked, “he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will katakausei (or) utterly burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Also in Matthew 13:30, where Christ speaking of the wheat and the tares taught, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to katakausei (or) utterly burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn … As therefore the tares are gathered and katakausei (or) utterly burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.”

crush
Oct 25th 2008, 04:16 AM
in the which the heavens shall pareleusontai (or) go or pass away, or perish with a great noise

G3928. parerchomai par-er'-khom-ahee from 3844 and 2064; to come near or aside, i.e. to approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causative) avert:--come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.


the earth also and the works that are therein shall be
katakakeesetai (or) burned up utterly or consumed wholly.

Westcott and Hort text uses heurisko, the older, *less reliable "Textus Receptus of 1550" uses katakaesetai or "burned up" "borrowed" from the context [3:12].

G2147. heurisko hyoo-ris'-ko, a prolonged form of a primary heuro hyoo'-ro, which (together with another cognate form) heureo hyoo-reh'-o is used for it in all the tenses except the present and imperfect to find (literally or figuratively):--find, get, obtain, perceive, see.


*Quote from the introduction of Marshall's Interlinear, p.v:

"The Authorized Version of 1611 follows what is known as the Received text (Textus Receptus, or T.R.). But this is now generally recognized as unreliable; also, since it was compiled in 1550 by Stephens (or Stephanus) many further manuscripts have come to light."

jeffweeder
Oct 25th 2008, 04:22 AM
katakakeesetai

No doubt about it, sounds like a life ending katakakeesatostrophe to me.:lol:

Thanks the Lord for that place he has prepared for us :D

The dispensation of the gospel grace and patience of the Lord, ends completely with his coming ,to render everyman accordingly.
You either rise to eternal life by believing the Gospel, or you weep and gnash your teeth that you missed an opportunity to live in Gods house forever.
When Jesus comes we are like him, for we shall see him as he is-----he who does not have the Spirit of Christ, is not going to be like him...God has fixed a day when this will happen, and its Jesus Christs revealing day....every eye will see him...even those who pierced him.

The Lord is not slow, but he wants all to come repentance right now, before the great and glorious appearing of our great God and saviour.. The lord Jesus Christ.

Peter wants his readers to know that the day of his coming is completely destructive, and to get their lives in order during this dispensation...because there is not going to be another..., where we might be saved.

wpm
Oct 25th 2008, 04:32 AM
No doubt about it, sounds like a life ending katakakeesatostrophe to me.:lol:

Thanks the Lord for that place he has prepared for us :D

The dispensation of the gospel grace and patience of the Lord, ends completely with his coming ,to render everyman accordingly.
You either rise to eternal life by believing the Gospel, or you weep and gnash your teeth that you missed an opportunity to live in Gods house forever.
When Jesus comes we are like him, for we shall see him as he is-----he who does not have the Spirit of Christ, is not going to be like him...God has fixed a day when this will happen, and its Jesus Christs revealing day....every eye will see him...even those who pierced him.

The Lord is not slow, but he wants all to come repentance right now, before the great and glorious appearing of our great God and saviour.. The lord Jesus Christ.

Peter wants his readers to know that the day of his coming is completely destructive, and to get their lives in order during this dispensation...because there is not going to be another..., where we might be saved.

Exactly. This is one of the clearest passages in Scripture.

wpm
Oct 25th 2008, 04:36 AM
Well I completely disagree with your synopsis of this chapter.

Peter warns us to not be like the "scoffers" in the Days of Noah, who didn't realize that God had water stored up in reserve to destroy the world.....that's it, you are adding all the other comparisons to the "days of Noah" yourself....

Peter wants us to know that God destroyed the world before, and he will do it again.

That is the whole point of the chapter, to let us know that God has "fiery elements" in reserve for judgment. And, yes, he will use these elements to destroy the world, but not at the time of Christ's second coming.

On the "Lord's day" [3:10] Peter tells us that, yes, some of these elements will be used for judgment, to "obtain" or win the battle for the world. But the earth is not destroyed at this time. Much in the same way that fire was brought down from heaven to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. This time it will be focused against the armies in the valley of Megiddo.

Then in 3:11 - Peter is saying - see, I told ya! God has fiery elements that he can use against us, so we should do what he says and live holy lives.

Then, on "God's day" [3:12] Peter is saying that God will use these "fiery elements" to destroy the heavens and the earth completely, but we shouldn't worry too much, because he will create a new heaven and earth where only righteous people will live.

There is 1000 years between 3:10 and 3:12......Peter is not an amill, he is just a victim of poor translation and interpretation.

Surely this passage is particularly directed towards the “scoffers” in “the last days” that will be taken unexpectedly by the fiery destruction that accompanies the revelation of the Lord, not a supposed group of “scoffers” 1,000 years after the Second Coming?

If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the Second Coming, why would they be mocking: “Where is the promise of his coming (or parousia)? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”?

jeffweeder
Oct 25th 2008, 05:28 AM
Surely this passage is particularly directed towards the “scoffers” in “the last days” that will be taken unexpectedly by the fiery destruction that accompanies the revelation of the Lord, not a supposed group of “scoffers” 1,000 years after the Second Coming?

Yes Paul,Amen, they didnt know what hit them until the flood came and swept them all away.
They were giving Noah a hard time by scoffing at him, but never got on the ark.
They will scoff at Jesus Christ also as the Church is being built...they shouldnt have forgotton what happened in Noahs day should they, which is why they weep and gnash their teeth at his revealing.


"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.



For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Hail the appointed day of Gods righteous Judgement and the new Heaven and the Earth, where righteousness dwells.

Today if you hear his voice what kind of a person are you going to be?

You may only have today to decide, because if the Lord comes tomorrow, youll either be like him, because you have recieved the truth, and his Spirit is in you, or you wont be like him ,because you rejected him...this is the fixed day where the eternal Judgement takes place, and God ceates all thing NEW.

Today if you hear his voice ,dont delay.
Dont think for 1 minute that you will be able to make up for it in an dispensation of 1000 years after this day of Christ...dont be decieved, today is the day.Get it done ...now.

crush
Oct 25th 2008, 05:29 AM
Surely this passage is particularly directed towards the “scoffers” in “the last days” that will be taken unexpectedly by the fiery destruction that accompanies the revelation of the Lord, not a supposed group of “scoffers” 1,000 years after the Second Coming?

If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the Second Coming, why would they be mocking: “Where is the promise of his coming (or parousia)? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”?

I think you are misunderstanding something I wrote, but I really not sure what, because I never suggested anything about "millenial scoffers"?

I agree that "the last days" refer to the time period before Christ's second coming, and this is where the mocking occurs.

I was able to find a very good explanation of the word "burned up" appearing in verse 3:10. I think it is very clear that because the most accurate translation "will be found" doesn't make sense to those translating, they chose to take a variety of interpretive license.

At the close of ver. 10 the extant witnesses present a wide variety of readings, none of which seems to be original. The oldest reading, and the one which best explains the origin of the others that have been preserved, is εὑρεθήσεται, which is attested by א B K P 424c 1175 1739txt 1852 syrph, hmg arm Origen. In view of the difficulty of extracting any acceptable sense from the passage, it is not strange that copyists and translators introduced a variety of modifications. Thus, several witnesses retain εὑρεθήσεται but qualify it with other words: (a) the Sahidic version and one manuscript of the Harclean Syriac version insert the negative, and (b) the Bodmer Papyrus (P72) adds λυόμενα (“the earth and the things in it will be found dissolved”) — an expedient, however, that overloads the context with three instances of the same verb. Other witnesses either (c) omit εὑρεθήσεται and the accompanying clause (so Ψ vg Pelagius al), or substitute another verb that gives more or less good sense. Thus (d) C reads ἀφανισθήσονται (“will disappear”), and (e) A 048 049 056 0142 33 614 Byz Lect syrh copbo eth al read κατακαήσεται (“will be burned up”).
Because εὑρεθήσεται, though the oldest of the extant readings, seems to be devoid of meaning in the context (even the expedient of punctuating as a question, “Will the earth and the things in it be found?” fails to commend itself), various conjectural emendations have been proposed: (a) after ἔργα the word ἄργα has fallen out (Bradshaw), “the earth and the things in it will be found useless”; (b) εὑρεθήσεται is a scribal corruption of ῥυήσεται or ῥεύσεται (Hort),1 “the earth and the things in it will flow”; (c) συρρυήσεται (Naber), “… will flow together”; (d) ἐκπυρωθήσεται (Olivier), “… will be burnt to ashes”; (e) ἀρθήσεται (J. B. Mayor), “… will be taken away”; (f) κριθήσεται (Eb. Nestle), “… will be judged”; (g) ἰαθήσεται (or ἐξιαθήσεται) (Chase), “… will be healed (thoroughly)”; (h) πυρωθήσεται (Vansittart), “… will be burned.”

Metzger, Bruce Manning ; United Bible Societies: A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.). London; New York : United Bible Societies, 1994, S. 636


Exactly. This is one of the clearest passages in ScriptureActually, 3:10 is one of the most controversial and difficult passages in the Scriptures for those translating [interpreting] to understand.

wpm
Oct 25th 2008, 05:44 AM
I think you are misunderstanding something I wrote, but I really not sure what, because I never suggested anything about "millenial scoffers"?

I agree that "the last days" refer to the time period before Christ's second coming, and this is where the mocking occurs.

I was able to find a very good explanation of the word "burned up" appearing in verse 3:10. I think it is very clear that because the most accurate translation "will be found" doesn't make sense to those translating, they chose to take a variety of interpretive license.

At the close of ver. 10 the extant witnesses present a wide variety of readings, none of which seems to be original. The oldest reading, and the one which best explains the origin of the others that have been preserved, is εὑρεθήσεται, which is attested by א B K P 424c 1175 1739txt 1852 syrph, hmg arm Origen. In view of the difficulty of extracting any acceptable sense from the passage, it is not strange that copyists and translators introduced a variety of modifications. Thus, several witnesses retain εὑρεθήσεται but qualify it with other words: (a) the Sahidic version and one manuscript of the Harclean Syriac version insert the negative, and (b) the Bodmer Papyrus (P72) adds λυόμενα (“the earth and the things in it will be found dissolved”) — an expedient, however, that overloads the context with three instances of the same verb. Other witnesses either (c) omit εὑρεθήσεται and the accompanying clause (so Ψ vg Pelagius al), or substitute another verb that gives more or less good sense. Thus (d) C reads ἀφανισθήσονται (“will disappear”), and (e) A 048 049 056 0142 33 614 Byz Lect syrh copbo eth al read κατακαήσεται (“will be burned up”).
Because εὑρεθήσεται, though the oldest of the extant readings, seems to be devoid of meaning in the context (even the expedient of punctuating as a question, “Will the earth and the things in it be found?” fails to commend itself), various conjectural emendations have been proposed: (a) after ἔργα the word ἄργα has fallen out (Bradshaw), “the earth and the things in it will be found useless”; (b) εὑρεθήσεται is a scribal corruption of ῥυήσεται or ῥεύσεται (Hort),1 “the earth and the things in it will flow”; (c) συρρυήσεται (Naber), “… will flow together”; (d) ἐκπυρωθήσεται (Olivier), “… will be burnt to ashes”; (e) ἀρθήσεται (J. B. Mayor), “… will be taken away”; (f) κριθήσεται (Eb. Nestle), “… will be judged”; (g) ἰαθήσεται (or ἐξιαθήσεται) (Chase), “… will be healed (thoroughly)”; (h) πυρωθήσεται (Vansittart), “… will be burned.”

Metzger, Bruce Manning ; United Bible Societies: A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.). London; New York : United Bible Societies, 1994, S. 636


Actually, 3:10 is one of the most difficult passages in the Scriptures for those translating [interpreting] to understand.


I don't feel you addressed my queries or the concerns I had with your belief. The focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that has already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their own folly at His Coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be punished for their scoffing. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ returns and pours out His wrath upon them. That is the whole thrust of the passage – the sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return.

crush
Oct 25th 2008, 04:45 PM
I don't feel you addressed my queries or the concerns I had with your belief. The focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that has already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their own folly at His Coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be punished for their scoffing. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ returns and pours out His wrath upon them. That is the whole thrust of the passage – the sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return.

I really don't disagree with anything you are saying here, except that this is the "main focus" of 2 Peter 3.

I thought I was very clear in the outline I gave, of what I believed Peter is telling us...."that God has weapons in his arsenal to destroy the world and he will use them"

These "scoffers" are ignorant of the fact that God had water stored up in the Earth at the time of Noah, and he used it to destroy the world. Likewise, they are ignorant of the fact that God has "fiery elements" stored up in heaven that he will also use to destroy the world again. This is the main "focus" of 2 Peter 3, IMO.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men

It will be a bad day to be a wicked person on the day Christ returns, you will get no argument from me on that.

Our disagreement is simply whether the Earth is destroyed at Christ's second coming, or if it continues for an additional 1000 years and is then destroyed.

2 Peter 3:10 is giving an account of the day that Christ will return. This is where the truth of the matter lies.

2 Peter 3:10 does not say that the Earth will be destroyed at Christ's second coming. This is easily provable now. The words "will be found" that God gave Peter to write, have been removed by some later copyists and replaced with words of their own choosing, the most popular version used by is "burned up". This greatly changes the meaning of the verse and leads to a complete misunderstanding by it's readers.

Subsequently, after this grievous error has occured, to remain true to the new distorted context, the part that reads "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" has been mistranslated from it's more accurate " with a great noise the heavens will draw near". Again, completely changing the meaning of God's original intent.