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RogerW
Oct 20th 2008, 07:11 PM
Is baptism and outward sign of an inward change or conversion? This question came up in another thread, because I had stated that baptism is not an outward sign of an inward change. What do I mean by such a statement? Before I answer this question I would like your input with Scripture support.

Many Blessings,
RW

lilwrangler
Oct 20th 2008, 08:18 PM
Well, I suppose I would begin with Jesus' own baptism by John the Baptist.

Matt. 3:15
Jesus, replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do that to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

That says to me that the act of baptism is the completion of one's transformation in Christ, hence the word "all", not some, righteousness. Jesus followed God's instructions and in verse 17 God was, "well pleased".

Emanate
Oct 20th 2008, 09:59 PM
Well, I suppose I would begin with Jesus' own baptism by John the Baptist.

Matt. 3:15
Jesus, replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do that to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

That says to me that the act of baptism is the completion of one's transformation in Christ, hence the word "all", not some, righteousness. Jesus followed God's instructions and in verse 17 God was, "well pleased".


Except it was at the beginning of his ministry. Baptism goes back to at least Sinai.

lilwrangler
Oct 20th 2008, 10:04 PM
Except it was at the beginning of his ministry. Baptism goes back to at least Sinai.

Okay but how does that address the question at hand?

RoadWarrior
Oct 20th 2008, 10:06 PM
Is baptism and outward sign of an inward change or conversion? This question came up in another thread, because I had stated that baptism is not an outward sign of an inward change. What do I mean by such a statement? Before I answer this question I would like your input with Scripture support.

Many Blessings,
RW

Could you define what you mean by "sign"? Do you mean in the Platonist sense?

RogerW
Oct 20th 2008, 10:12 PM
Well, I suppose I would begin with Jesus' own baptism by John the Baptist.

Matt. 3:15
Jesus, replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do that to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

That says to me that the act of baptism is the completion of one's transformation in Christ, hence the word "all", not some, righteousness. Jesus followed God's instructions and in verse 17 God was, "well pleased".

Greetings Lilwrangler,

Welcome to the community!

“To fulfill all righteousness” is speaking of the righteous work Christ was given from the Father to finish. Christ came to fulfill all the requirements of the law, and a righteousness of which the law was only a part. The precept of God through John’s baptism was not part of the Mosaic law, but a precept given to John (Jo 1:33), and a command Christ Himself left us with. Christ must fulfill the divinely appointed precept confirming He is the Messiah. This verse shows us Christ has fulfilled all righteousness, but it does not show us the completion of one’s transformation in Christ. How could water baptism be this transforming power, since John has already told us his water baptism merely symbolized repentance, but One mightier than John will baptize with the Holy Spirit and power? It is not water baptism that transforms us, but Holy Spirit baptism, which Christ alone provides.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mt 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

If water baptism is an outward sign of an inward conversion, why isn’t everyone who has been baptized in water saved? Have you ever considered water baptism, like circumcision in the OT as a sign pointing us to something greater?

Many Blessings,
RW

lilwrangler
Oct 20th 2008, 10:34 PM
If water baptism is an outward sign of an inward conversion, why isn’t everyone who has been baptized in water saved? Have you ever considered water baptism, like circumcision in the OT as a sign pointing us to something greater?

Many Blessings,
RW

Because they received the baptism of the spirit upon their profession of faith. Which comes before their baptism in water. To be baptised in water is simply the follow up of the profession as instructed.

I'm not real sure I see what you're saying here. Sounds almost like the cart got put before the horse somewhere.

RogerW
Oct 20th 2008, 10:57 PM
Because they received the baptism of the spirit upon their profession of faith. Which comes before their baptism in water. To be baptised in water is simply the follow up of the profession as instructed.

I'm not real sure I see what you're saying here. Sounds almost like the cart got put before the horse somewhere.

Greetings lilwrangler,

How do you explain all those baptized in the Jordan by John prior to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Most of these later showed their true hearts when they cried "crucify Him". Consider Paul's question to the disciples in Ephesus. They had received John's baptism, but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. These examples don't appear to harmonize with what you have stated.

Ac 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Paul again makes a distinction between John's baptism of repentance, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the name of the Lord Jesus.

Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 20th 2008, 11:03 PM
Could you define what you mean by "sign"? Do you mean in the Platonist sense?

A sign or symbol is something that points to something, but it is not the something it points to...rather it symbolizes the true. Consider the sign of circumcision given to Abraham. Circumcision is the sign of covenant inclusion and symbolizes the circumcision made without hands; i.e. salvation.

De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Dragonfighter1
Oct 20th 2008, 11:45 PM
I'm still waiting for the answer too. I have long respected those who believe Baptism is an important part of their faith expression. Even attend a Baptist church... But I get annoyed at the statement "Outward sign of inner reality" or similar phrase. i can't find it in the Bible.

If you believe Baptism saves then the phrase is silly (This thread isnt about that so dont respond to that statement)

If you don't believe in baptismal regeneration (This thread isn't about that either) why practice baptism at all unless there is some other specific meaning in the Bible?

If there is a Biblical reason, then why not quote that rather than the "outward sign" quote that is too often used?

I am not trying to bait or annoy. I am sincere in wanting understanding.:hmm:

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 12:01 AM
I'm still waiting for the answer too. I have long respected those who believe Baptism is an important part of their faith expression. Even attend a Baptist church... But I get annoyed at the statement "Outward sign of inner reality" or similar phrase. i can't find it in the Bible.

If you believe Baptism saves then the phrase is silly (This thread isnt about that so dont respond to that statement)

If you don't believe in baptismal regeneration (This thread isn't about that either) why practice baptism at all unless there is some other specific meaning in the Bible?

If there is a Biblical reason, then why not quote that rather than the "outward sign" quote that is too often used?

I am not trying to bait or annoy. I am sincere in wanting understanding.:hmm:

Greetings Dragonfighter,

Do you believe in covenant continuity? In other words do you believe that the Covenant of Redemption in one covenant extending from the beginning of human history and lasting until time is no more? The real question I'm persuing is...do you believe God made one covenant with the nation of Israel, and then another (altogether different) covenant with the New Testament church?

I ask these questions because I believe Scripture shows us that the Covenant of Redemption is an everlasting covenant, and that circumcision was a sign (not the true) of God's salvation, and water baptism has replaced circumcision as a sign (just like circumcision, not the true) pointing to the Holy Spirit baptism that saves.

Since you come from a Baptist background this is probably all new to you, so please feel free to ask how I came to this understanding...if you want to know.

Many Blessings,
RW

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 12:09 AM
Greetings Dragonfighter,

Do you believe in covenant continuity? In other words do you believe that the Covenant of Redemption in one covenant extending from the beginning of human history and lasting until time is no more? The real question I'm persuing is...do you believe God made one covenant with the nation of Israel, and then another (altogether different) covenant with the New Testament church?

I ask these questions because I believe Scripture shows us that the Covenant of Redemption is an everlasting covenant, and that circumcision was a sign (not the true) of God's salvation, and water baptism has replaced circumcision as a sign (just like circumcision, not the true) pointing to the Holy Spirit baptism that saves.

Since you come from a Baptist background this is probably all new to you, so please feel free to ask how I came to this understanding...if you want to know.

Many Blessings,
RW

If we can discuss this in this thread without getting flagged I'd love to.

Never heard of covenant continuity

3.5 yrs Baptists college but not a baptist myself. Baptised By Jerry Falwell, but not a baptist. Not that I reject that Baptism it just I no longer see water Baptism as meaningful. Holy Spirit Baptism (I do not mean tongues etc... thats a different thread entirely) is the only Baptism that saves. We are sealed by the spirit until the day of redemption.

In the covenant thing I would love to learn more. Let me give you my read on dispensationalism... and I am tongue in cheek here. Some say there are 2 disps, some say 7(scofield school) some say 12 (GGF school) I am hyper dispensational:D I say there are millions: EVERYWORD that proceeds form Gods mouth to us is "Dispensed" either to us or for us to learn from.

I believe that many dispensations run out of sequence, such as the dietary ones which seem to pay little attention to the law and grace issues of covenants and so forth.

I look forward to you first framing the direction of the discussion,, so we stay on track and, also, setting the guidleines for the scope of subject matter. This will help other readers participate without getting ofcourse too often.
Thanks
DF1

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 12:19 AM
For reference, I grew up in a PCA reformed faith Presbyterian Church where infants are baptized. I am no longer affiliated with the PCA, but do currently attend a Baptist Church....

Now you asked for verses:

Romans 6:1-

"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 nd do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."


I put the WHole context of that a section from Romans. Clearly Paul is using Baptism as a means to show how we as Christians identify with Christ, having been made dead to sin, and resurrected to righteousness.

Colossians 2:11-14
"11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Yet another example where paul compares Baptism to being compared and linked to the death of Christ, his burial etc. And this one links circumcision to it as well.

I think baptism is a sign of obedience, and I believe that if you look through scripture you will see that believers are told to believe in Christ and then be baptized. The order to me is important. In the passage above Peter told that group to beleive on the Lord Jesus and baptized them, and then they received the Holy Spirit.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 12:32 AM
For reference, I grew up in a PCA reformed faith Presbyterian Church where infants are baptized. I am no longer affiliated with the PCA, but do currently attend a Baptist Church....

Now you asked for verses:

Romans 6:1-

"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 nd do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."


I put the WHole context of that a section from Romans. Clearly Paul is using Baptism as a means to show how we as Christians identify with Christ, having been made dead to sin, and resurrected to righteousness.

Colossians 2:11-14
"11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Yet another example where paul compares Baptism to being compared and linked to the death of Christ, his burial etc. And this one links circumcision to it as well.

I think baptism is a sign of obedience, and I believe that if you look through scripture you will see that believers are told to believe in Christ and then be baptized. The order to me is important. In the passage above Peter told that group to beleive on the Lord Jesus and baptized them, and then they received the Holy Spirit.

Veretax,
You and I usually have some pretty intense debates. But we have yet to offend. That said. I DO NOT wish this post to do that either.

I think every one of your verses is valid except they aren't speaking of water. They are speaking of the sealing of the spirit (without hands) so to speak.

To amplify: the word baptize could not be agreed to by the early English translators, so they agreed to disagree on the best word to use, by transliterating the word from Greek (Baptidzo). In the original it had so many meanings it was almost contextual every time as to which meaning was valid.(as you can imagine that set up for a lot of fights every time they ran into the word).

It has meant:
Washing dishes
dying cloths
changing in status
immersion
washing
cleansing
cleaning
changing
identifying with
and many others that are determined contextually.

There are definitely passages that mean WATER or require WATER. But there are also many that dont.

I look forward to your response. Please be assured I will read carefully and repond respectfully.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 12:59 AM
If we can discuss this in this thread without getting flagged I'd love to.

Never heard of covenant continuity

3.5 yrs Baptists college but not a baptist myself. Baptised By Jerry Falwell, but not a baptist. Not that I reject that Baptism it just I no longer see water Baptism as meaningful. Holy Spirit Baptism (I do not mean tongues etc... thats a different thread entirely) is the only Baptism that saves. We are sealed by the spirit until the day of redemption.

In the covenant thing I would love to learn more. Let me give you my read on dispensationalism... and I am tongue in cheek here. Some say there are 2 disps, some say 7(scofield school) some say 12 (GGF school) I am hyper dispensational:D I say there are millions: EVERYWORD that proceeds form Gods mouth to us is "Dispensed" either to us or for us to learn from.

I believe that many dispensations run out of sequence, such as the dietary ones which seem to pay little attention to the law and grace issues of covenants and so forth.

I look forward to you first framing the direction of the discussion,, so we stay on track and, also, setting the guidleines for the scope of subject matter. This will help other readers participate without getting ofcourse too often.
Thanks
DF1

Greetings DF1,

I don't want to overwhelm anyone, so I'll try to present this is small bites. Teaching on Covenant Theology is probably the most neglected doctrine in the church today. Much of the information here comes from John P. Sartelle

I believe that every doctrine has its roots in the OT. If you want to understand the doctrine of sin, you must begin with Genesis. To understand the beauty of the cross, you must read the Law and the Prophets. Likewise, to learn about baptism, you must begin in the OT.

In Romans 4 Paul explains that Abraham's salvation was by God's grace and through faith. "Abraham believed [had faith] God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Gen 15:6; Ro 4:9). Just as we are sinners saved by grace through faith, he too was a sinner saved by grace through faith.

In Gen 17:7 God calls this saving relationship an "everlasting covenant" - a covenant of redemption from generation to generation. God gave Abraham a sign or symbol to mark that covenant relationship. He said that Abraham was to be circumcised, and this circumcison was to be a sign of the covenant of salvation: "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you" (Gen 17:11).

Circumcision was a sign of God's salvation to Abraham. Why did God choose circumcision? In Isaiah 52:1, the words "uncircumcised" and "unclean" are synonymous. It seems we can say that God used this sign of cleanliness to symbolize spiritual cleansing (Deu 30:6). Any outsider coming into Israel (covenant body) was to be circumcised, believing in the God of Abraham (Ex 12:48).

Passages in the OT so closely identify the sign with the real event that God actually uses the word circumcision instead of salvation. The saved person or community is called "circumcised"; the unsaved person or community is called "uncircumcised" (Isa 52:1; Eze 44:9; 1Sam 14:6).

From this should we assume that circumcision saves the individual? No! Abraham was saved by faith, not by circumcision. Yet God commanded circumcision as a sign of salvation: "...and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith" (Ro 4:11).

You're probably thinking...okay, circumcision was the sign of salvation in the OT. Duh...what does that have to do with baptism in the NT?

Well Genesis 17 tells us that God commands Abraham to apply the sign of salvation to eight day old infants. How could the sign of salvation be applied to an infant who had not yet believed? "...and every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations" (Gen 17:12).

For now, consider:

Abraham was a sinner saved by grace through faith.
God made circumcision a sign of salvation.
The sign of salvation was to be given to infants of believing parents.
Something to think about: What is the sign of covenant inclusion, and salvation in the NT? Since God is unchanging, who would receive the sign?

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 02:16 AM
Veretax,
You and I usually have some pretty intense debates. But we have yet to offend. That said. I DO NOT wish this post to do that either.

Intense? I've only been here a few days LOL. I enjoy discussions like this, I think it helps build our faith and keep us grounded in the truth.



I think every one of your verses is valid except they aren't speaking of water. They are speaking of the sealing of the spirit (without hands) so to speak.

To amplify: the word baptize could not be agreed to by the early English translators, so they agreed to disagree on the best word to use, by transliterating the word from Greek (Baptidzo). In the original it had so many meanings it was almost contextual every time as to which meaning was valid.(as you can imagine that set up for a lot of fights every time they ran into the word).



Right I am aware of the history of the word. This is part why some churches, springle, dip, or dunk (immerse for baptism). Let me just say that the amount of water used to me matters not. H2O is H2O, the only difference is the amount of water. Now I do prefer immersion because it does paint a symbolic picture of christ's burial, and resurrection.



There are definitely passages that mean WATER or require WATER. But there are also many that dont.

I look forward to your response. Please be assured I will read carefully and repond respectfully.

I agree with you also that the real baptism should have taken place in the heart. I beleive this happens at the moment of faith/salvation. Whether it is moment before because God changed your heart to enable you to believe as some believe, or if it happened the instant you put the faith in Christ is not as important as the fact that it happened at all.

There's just one problem, men cannot see the heart of man. As with Abraham, how did others know that he was faithful to his God? Jesus Commanded before ascending into heaven that all be baptized in the name of the triune godhead. Why was this important? Water baptism is a picture of putting oneself in submission to the Church. It takes faith in the pastor to know that when he put you under the water (as in immersion for example), that he will bring you back up and retore you to air again.

Now, Circumcision isn't something you can undo easily. the Water of Water baptism dries rather quickly. So why would Jesus emphasize it? It is the first act of Testimony. Remember, that some who were healed by Jesus or the Disciples beleived and then immediately rushed to tell someone else. It is important for us to make this confesion before men, because as it says in Romans, if we onfess him before men, then he shall confess us before the father.

Christ felt this was important, and its because of that baptism is one of the two main ordinances held and practiced by most Christian Churches. ....

Now to what DF1 was saying.

Obviously the lasting sign of Salvation is the indwelling of he Holy Spirit within us. The water of Baptism does not last, but because our spirit has been regenerated, we are now marked spiritually as different from other men. There is one area here, from my reformed upbringing, I recall that Circumcision was replaced in effect by baptism. This is one more reason why many churches believe in infant baptism. However, many still have their children circumcized even though we are not held in bondage to that law. I'm not entirely sure why this is.

However, if we go back to the baptism of John, many of the Jews came for the baptis for repentance. Clearly, not all did so with the right heart, but why was it important that Jesus, the lamb without blemish to do this? I think that baptism is also a sign of Inward repentance, that we put off the old man, leaving it behind and clinging to the promise of Christ by Faith.

Butch5
Oct 21st 2008, 02:46 AM
Is baptism and outward sign of an inward change or conversion? This question came up in another thread, because I had stated that baptism is not an outward sign of an inward change. What do I mean by such a statement? Before I answer this question I would like your input with Scripture support.

Many Blessings,
RW

Baptism is not symbolic, it is the place where God meets man in order to rebirth him. It is not the water but what God does in the water.

Jesus said, unless you are born of water and the Spirit you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus was baptized and upon coming out of the water the Spirit descended on Him. In this He linked water baptism with receiving the Holy Spirit. Peter said the same thing in Acts,


Acts 2:38 ( KJV ) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The same thing Jesus said, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. Paul also links water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:5 ( KJV ) 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Here Paul says God saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. This washing of regeneration or rebirth cannot be a Spirit baptism because Paul also mentions the Spirit baptism in addition to the washing of regeneration which is water baptism. Peter says the same thing in His epistle.


1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Peter says the 8 souls were saved by water. He says baptism saves us, he has linked this to water baptism by His reference to the 8 souls who were saved by water. However notice He says it is not the water that is saving but it is the answer of a good conscience before God. So it is God saving in the water. So no, baptism is not a symbol, it is how our sins are forgiven and how we are prepared for the Holy Spirit.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 08:30 AM
Greetings DF1,

I don't want to overwhelm anyone, so I'll try to present this is small bites. Teaching on Covenant Theology is probably the most neglected doctrine in the church today. Much of the information here comes from John P. Sartelle

I believe that every doctrine has its roots in the OT. If you want to understand the doctrine of sin, you must begin with Genesis. To understand the beauty of the cross, you must read the Law and the Prophets. Likewise, to learn about baptism, you must begin in the OT.

In Romans 4 Paul explains that Abraham's salvation was by God's grace and through faith. "Abraham believed [had faith] God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Gen 15:6; Ro 4:9). Just as we are sinners saved by grace through faith, he too was a sinner saved by grace through faith.

In Gen 17:7 God calls this saving relationship an "everlasting covenant" - a covenant of redemption from generation to generation. God gave Abraham a sign or symbol to mark that covenant relationship. He said that Abraham was to be circumcised, and this circumcison was to be a sign of the covenant of salvation: "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you" (Gen 17:11).

Circumcision was a sign of God's salvation to Abraham. Why did God choose circumcision? In Isaiah 52:1, the words "uncircumcised" and "unclean" are synonymous. It seems we can say that God used this sign of cleanliness to symbolize spiritual cleansing (Deu 30:6). Any outsider coming into Israel (covenant body) was to be circumcised, believing in the God of Abraham (Ex 12:48).

Passages in the OT so closely identify the sign with the real event that God actually uses the word circumcision instead of salvation. The saved person or community is called "circumcised"; the unsaved person or community is called "uncircumcised" (Isa 52:1; Eze 44:9; 1Sam 14:6).

From this should we assume that circumcision saves the individual? No! Abraham was saved by faith, not by circumcision. Yet God commanded circumcision as a sign of salvation: "...and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith" (Ro 4:11).

You're probably thinking...okay, circumcision was the sign of salvation in the OT. Duh...what does that have to do with baptism in the NT?

Well Genesis 17 tells us that God commands Abraham to apply the sign of salvation to eight day old infants. How could the sign of salvation be applied to an infant who had not yet believed? "...and every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations" (Gen 17:12).

For now, consider:

Abraham was a sinner saved by grace through faith.
God made circumcision a sign of salvation.
The sign of salvation was to be given to infants of believing parents.

Something to think about: What is the sign of covenant inclusion, and salvation in the NT? Since God is unchanging, who would receive the sign?

Many Blessings,
RW


Roger,
Really enjoying this thread. In light of the closing paragraph could yo also join the..
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=143810
Do babies go to heaven discussion. I think you have info to share on that too.

Back to current topic. I thought that signs were done away with. I remember a verse somewhere ahat said an evil generation looks ofr signs or something like that. Hazy memory-m,ay be out of context:dunno:
Anyway keep posting,
Thanks
DF1

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 11:01 AM
Baptism is not symbolic, it is the place where God meets man in order to rebirth him. It is not the water but what God does in the water.

Jesus said, unless you are born of water and the Spirit you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus was baptized and upon coming out of the water the Spirit descended on Him. In this He linked water baptism with receiving the Holy Spirit. Peter said the same thing in Acts,



Except in this verse water is not equivalent to Water Baptism. Water symbolizes the physical birth we each have. (The mother's water is what is referenced here). The spirit birth is equivalent to when the second happens. Water does not save, only Faith in Christ's Sacrifice saves. To say that baptism saves is to make baptism a work which is necessary to salvation, and then in fact invalidates that by grace are we saved through faith.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 11:52 AM
Except in this verse water is not equivalent to Water Baptism. Water symbolizes the physical birth we each have. (The mother's water is what is referenced here). The spirit birth is equivalent to when the second happens. Water does not save, only Faith in Christ's Sacrifice saves. To say that baptism saves is to make baptism a work which is necessary to salvation, and then in fact invalidates that by grace are we saved through faith.

To put an extremely fine edge on definitions: Baptism DOES save. Not water, not the water symbol, nothing to do with water or rituals at all.... no, However, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, whereby we are sealed unto the day of redemption...That is the baptism that saves. It is a fine point, but worthy of remembering.

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 12:47 PM
To put an extremely fine edge on definitions: Baptism DOES save. Not water, not the water symbol, nothing to do with water or rituals at all.... no, However, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, whereby we are sealed unto the day of redemption...That is the baptism that saves. It is a fine point, but worthy of remembering.

I think we are arguing semantics now, in order to be reborn, and made alive, we need the Holy Spirit, and we don't get that until belief. I Agree the Water baptism really is a sign of obedience per Christ's last commandment before ascending into heaven. I agree with you here, it is the baptism that happens in the heart at that moment of belief which completes the "work" of salvation if you will.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 12:58 PM
I think we are arguing semantics now, in order to be reborn, and made alive, we need the Holy Spirit, and we don't get that until belief. I Agree the Water baptism really is a sign of obedience per Christ's last commandment before ascending into heaven. I agree with you here, it is the baptism that happens in the heart at that moment of belief which completes the "work" of salvation if you will.
Semantic domains! The #1 cause of Christian contention:D.

I don't like to cause contention at all. But I do enjoy getting people to think accurately. I am regularly caused to do the same and love the feeling of growth (though sometimes the process itself is a bit rough).

I am afraid I still don't see the "sign of obedience" issue the same as you. BUT, since it is not(as far as I am aware) an issue worth separating over we should probably agree to disagree.

One last point I would appreciate your response to...
The phrase "baptizing in the name of" does that mean TO YOU ...
Immersing in water in the name of....or...
Immersing in the spirit in the name of?

Legit question not trying to set you up. I promise.

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 01:37 PM
I am afraid I still don't see the "sign of obedience" issue the same as you. BUT, since it is not(as far as I am aware) an issue worth separating over we should probably agree to disagree.

One last point I would appreciate your response to...
The phrase "baptizing in the name of" does that mean TO YOU ...
Immersing in water in the name of....or...
Immersing in the spirit in the name of?

Legit question not trying to set you up. I promise.

The "sign of obedience" is my personal belief, because I don't believe that Water baptism is necessary for salvation, then the only reason to practice it is because Christ clearly told his disciples to do so.

In this way I see baptizing in the name of, as being brought into submission to the name of. In Acts I think it was there are many who were told to be baptized in the name of Jesus (not the entire trinity). Most of them I believe were Jews. why was this? They already believed they were submitted to the Spirit and the Father, but they had to be submitted in obedience to Christ too. For the Jews it was important that they understand that Jesus was the Son of God and that their trust was indeed in him. At least this is how I understand it.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 01:48 PM
The "sign of obedience" is my personal belief, because I don't believe that Water baptism is necessary for salvation, then the only reason to practice it is because Christ clearly told his disciples to do so.

In this way I see baptizing in the name of, as being brought into submission to the name of. In Acts I think it was there are many who were told to be baptized in the name of Jesus (not the entire trinity). Most of them I believe were Jews. why was this? They already believed they were submitted to the Spirit and the Father, but they had to be submitted in obedience to Christ too. For the Jews it was important that they understand that Jesus was the Son of God and that their trust was indeed in him. At least this is how I understand it.
WARNING!!!!!!!

Dragon fighter has just been THEOLOGICALLY NAILED!!;)

Oh Yeah! :o ...The most succinct statement I have ever read on this matter is Veretax statement: "The "sign of obedience" is my personal belief, because I don't believe that Water baptism is necessary for salvation, then the only reason to practice it is because Christ clearly told his disciples to do so."

Now I can be a Baptist church attender without discomfort. Thank you, Truly, Thank you!Brother that was worth some Kudos...coming your way now!

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 02:05 PM
WARNING!!!!!!!

Dragon fighter has just been THEOLOGICALLY NAILED!!;)

Oh Yeah! :o ...The most succinct statement I have ever read on this matter is Veretax statement: "The "sign of obedience" is my personal belief, because I don't believe that Water baptism is necessary for salvation, then the only reason to practice it is because Christ clearly told his disciples to do so."

Now I can be a Baptist church attender without discomfort. Thank you, Truly, Thank you!Brother that was worth some Kudos...coming your way now!

Uhm okay, I'm just saying what I believe to be true. The ideas are from God not me, believe me, because being formerly of a "Reformed Mindset" i used to believe in infant baptism, and that Baptism was indeed part of being saved. It took God working on my heart through scripture for me to change my belief to that. Just some food for thought. I was wrong back then, I'm not afraid to admit that.

uric3
Oct 21st 2008, 03:35 PM
Greetings lilwrangler,

How do you explain all those baptized in the Jordan by John prior to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Most of these later showed their true hearts when they cried "crucify Him". Consider Paul's question to the disciples in Ephesus. They had received John's baptism, but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. These examples don't appear to harmonize with what you have stated.

Ac 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Paul again makes a distinction between John's baptism of repentance, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the name of the Lord Jesus.

Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Many Blessings,
RW

Thought I would mention There is three baptisms mentioned in the passages above, water baptism of John, water baptism of Christ and then Holy Spirit Baptism. This passage does not point to baptism into Christ is the baptism of the holy spirit. Which I think you where trying to convey... if you where not my apologies for miss reading.

You have the baptism of John mentioned in verse 4 then the baptism of Jesus in verse 5 and then they get the Holy Spirit in verse 6. Another passages that explains this in greater detail is in Acts 8 verses 5-19.

Just to summarize you have Phillip preaching in Samaria and men and women obey the gospel and are baptized into Christ(water) but the holy ghost had fell on none of them(vs16) "6(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" then the apostles later lay their hands on them so they can receive the holy spirit vs 17, 18 that when Simon noticed to get the Holy Spirit you had to do it via laying on the hands...

As far as a holy spirit baptism only two groups of people recorded in the Bible ever received that... everyone else got it via laying on of hands as shown here in Acts 8 and in Acts 19 that you posted above but note they was baptized into Christ before they ever was given the holy spirit... Acts 2:38 points this out as well.

To go more on topic its not an outward sign... a lot of the examples we have its urget that they are baptized right away... with or without witnesses... how is it an outward sign if no one is there to see it? Take Acts 8 with Phillip and the eunuch... Phillip baptizes him on the side of the road with no one around... then in Acts 16 you have the jailer who is baptized in the middle of the night when most people would be in bed... no one is mentioned of then him his house and Paul really...

Today people say its to be performed in front of the church as a sign... but in the Bible it was to do two things... wash away sins and answer in a good conscience to God as a step of faith.

Acts 22:16 "...wash away their sins." 1st Peter 3:20-21 "...baptism doth now also save us ...but answering in a good Conscience toward God."

Anyway I would like to discuss more but these should be some points to chew on...

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 03:41 PM
I think its important to be baptized as quickly as possible (Scripturally), because the longer you delay, the harder it is to be obedient to what is essentially the first command given to new believers. In my case, I was saved in 1990, it probably wasn't 97 or 98 that I realized I had not been baptized by scripture, and submitted at that point to be baptized, immediately. I should tell you guys the story of how I came to change my mind on this some time, but don't have time right now.

uric3
Oct 21st 2008, 03:43 PM
Roger,
Really enjoying this thread. In light of the closing paragraph could yo also join the..
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=143810
Do babies go to heaven discussion. I think you have info to share on that too.

Back to current topic. I thought that signs were done away with. I remember a verse somewhere ahat said an evil generation looks ofr signs or something like that. Hazy memory-m,ay be out of context:dunno:
Anyway keep posting,
Thanks
DF1

I think the passage you are referring to is 1 Cor 13:1-13 it mentions that tongues shall cease, etc..

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 04:35 PM
I think the passage you are referring to is 1 Cor 13:1-13 it mentions that tongues shall cease, etc..


Actually I think he is referring to:


2 Thessalonians 2:8-10

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

As a side note: this is the only "end time" scripture pertaining to signs and wonders.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 04:42 PM
Thought I would mention There is three baptisms mentioned in the passages above, water baptism of John, water baptism of Christ and then Holy Spirit Baptism. This passage does not point to baptism into Christ is the baptism of the holy spirit. Which I think you where trying to convey... if you where not my apologies for miss reading.

You have the baptism of John mentioned in verse 4 then the baptism of Jesus in verse 5 and then they get the Holy Spirit in verse 6. Another passages that explains this in greater detail is in Acts 8 verses 5-19.

Just to summarize you have Phillip preaching in Samaria and men and women obey the gospel and are baptized into Christ(water) but the holy ghost had fell on none of them(vs16) "6(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" then the apostles later lay their hands on them so they can receive the holy spirit vs 17, 18 that when Simon noticed to get the Holy Spirit you had to do it via laying on the hands...

As far as a holy spirit baptism only two groups of people recorded in the Bible ever received that... everyone else got it via laying on of hands as shown here in Acts 8 and in Acts 19 that you posted above but note they was baptized into Christ before they ever was given the holy spirit... Acts 2:38 points this out as well.

Greetings Uric3,

There are only two baptisms mentioned in Acts 19:4-6. (1) that of John's with water and (2) that of Christ baptizing them with the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism in Christ. That this Holy Spirit baptism was done by the laying on of the hands of the Apostle was necessary to prove the message as well as the messengers come from God with power. Once the church was established and the Bible complete we no longer need this supernatural sign to establish truth. We simply obey through faith.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:



To go more on topic its not an outward sign... a lot of the examples we have its urget that they are baptized right away... with or without witnesses... how is it an outward sign if no one is there to see it? Take Acts 8 with Phillip and the eunuch... Phillip baptizes him on the side of the road with no one around... then in Acts 16 you have the jailer who is baptized in the middle of the night when most people would be in bed... no one is mentioned of then him his house and Paul really...

Today people say its to be performed in front of the church as a sign... but in the Bible it was to do two things... wash away sins and answer in a good conscience to God as a step of faith.

Acts 22:16 "...wash away their sins." 1st Peter 3:20-21 "...baptism doth now also save us ...but answering in a good Conscience toward God."

Anyway I would like to discuss more but these should be some points to chew on...

Water baptism is a sign of coming into a covenant relationship with God, and outward cleansing signifying the washing away of the filth of our flesh. Holy Spirit baptism is the real inward cleansing that comes with being born again by the Holy Spirit which is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh [as water baptism signifies], but the answer of a good conscience toward God".

Many Blessings,
RW

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 04:45 PM
Galatians 1:
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law (baptism), or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

RoadWarrior
Oct 21st 2008, 04:47 PM
I think its important to be baptized as quickly as possible (Scripturally), because the longer you delay, the harder it is to be obedient to what is essentially the first command given to new believers. In my case, I was saved in 1990, it probably wasn't 97 or 98 that I realized I had not been baptized by scripture, and submitted at that point to be baptized, immediately. I should tell you guys the story of how I came to change my mind on this some time, but don't have time right now.

Veretax, I love to hear testimonies of how God worked in people's individual lives. I look forward to your doing this.

No matter what theology we have been taught, what matters most is what God does for us personally. That is where transformation happens.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 04:49 PM
Roger,
What do you think of the following?

...That every church has there own particular rituals, some more, some less, some very few. But all churches practice some ritual or style of worship...
It is not a sin per se, to have a ritual unless you ascribe benefits to it.

Therefore if you want to be dunked, or have a ice cream plopped on your head, as a ritual of devotion to God then that is fine.

Obviously the icecream point was to point out that whereas icecream isnt in the BIble its not a sin to demonstrate devotion that way, but Water dunking is in the Bible and since no harm is created(unless they believe it imparts some spiritual gift) then no harm is done?
Did I make sense? I thnik my brian is wobblying:lol:

RoadWarrior
Oct 21st 2008, 04:50 PM
Galatians 1:
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law (baptism), or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Jn 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV


I disagree that baptism is a "work of the law."

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 04:51 PM
Galatians 1:
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law (baptism), or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


??? your scaring me now! PLease amplify.. that is one of my favorite passages and now I think I may need a straightening out!:o

uric3
Oct 21st 2008, 05:07 PM
Greetings Uric3,

There are only two baptisms mentioned in Acts 19:4-6. (1) that of John's with water and (2) that of Christ baptizing them with the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit baptism is the baptism in Christ. That this Holy Spirit baptism was done by the laying on of the hands of the Apostle was necessary to prove the message as well as the messengers come from God with power. Once the church was established and the Bible complete we no longer need this supernatural sign to establish truth. We simply obey through faith.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:



Water baptism is a sign of coming into a covenant relationship with God, and outward cleansing signifying the washing away of the filth of our flesh. Holy Spirit baptism is the real inward cleansing that comes with being born again by the Holy Spirit which is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh [as water baptism signifies], but the answer of a good conscience toward God".

Many Blessings,
RW

Can you explain Acts 8 then if baptism in Christ is only Holy Spirit Baptism?

We see in Acts 8:12 that both men and women where baptized in to Christ yet none of them got the holy spirit... until the apostles laid their hands on them... which is how we see people got the holy spirit at the time...

As stated before only two groups of ppl ever recorded in the bible as receiving that actual baptism.

Also look at Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice they had to be baptized into the Christ first then they would get the gift of the holy spirit... just like we saw in Acts 8...

Also if water baptism isn't important why did Paul command people to do it? Read Acts 10:46-48 seems like it wasn't an option if he commanded it being inspired...

Also you quoted 1st Peter 3:20-21 which is referring to water baptism... which states its not for washing away the filth of the flesh but an answer in a good conscience toward God. Holy Spirit Baptism isn't mentioned there... the passages is an apology of the water in Noah's day to the waters of baptism... "...eight souls were saved by water..." "...like unto baptism doth now also save us..."

Once again only two groups of ppl was shown get the baptism of the holy spirit everyone else got it via the laying on of hands... if you can think of anyone else who got the baptism like described in Acts 2 other than two groups of people... than please let me know...

kf4zmt
Oct 21st 2008, 05:44 PM
URIC3:

Can you explain Acts 8 then if baptism in Christ is only Holy Spirit Baptism?

We see in Acts 8:12 that both men and women where baptized in to Christ yet none of them got the holy spirit... until the apostles laid their hands on them... which is how we see people got the holy spirit at the time...

As stated before only two groups of ppl ever recorded in the bible as receiving that actual baptism.

Also look at Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice they had to be baptized into the Christ first then they would get the gift of the holy spirit... just like we saw in Acts 8...

Also if water baptism isn't important why did Paul command people to do it? Read Acts 10:46-48 seems like it wasn't an option if he commanded it being inspired...

Also you quoted 1st Peter 3:20-21 which is referring to water baptism... which states its not for washing away the filth of the flesh but an answer in a good conscience toward God. Holy Spirit Baptism isn't mentioned there... the passages is an apology of the water in Noah's day to the waters of baptism... "...eight souls were saved by water..." "...like unto baptism doth now also save us..."

Once again only two groups of ppl was shown get the baptism of the holy spirit everyone else got it via the laying on of hands... if you can think of anyone else who got the baptism like described in Acts 2 other than two groups of people... than please let me know...I would add that by the time Ephesians chapter 4 was written Holy Spirit baptism had already ceased. Verse 5 says there is only one baptism.

Since water baptism is the only baptism that anyone was ever commanded to submit to, and since Holy Spirit baptism was for a limited time and purpose, then water baptism is what people must submit to in order to become Christians.

No one was ever commanded to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. God only commands that which we are capable of obeying. Holy Spirit baptism was something God did to them, not something the disciples could do on their own.

The Bible clearly states that water baptism is required to have sins washed away (Acts 22:16). One is not a Christian until he or she is immersed in water in obedience to God's command. Therefore baptism is not an outward sign of an inward grace. It is an essential step for salvation.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 05:57 PM
Roger,
Really enjoying this thread. In light of the closing paragraph could yo also join the..
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=143810
Do babies go to heaven discussion. I think you have info to share on that too.

Back to current topic. I thought that signs were done away with. I remember a verse somewhere ahat said an evil generation looks ofr signs or something like that. Hazy memory-m,ay be out of context:dunno:
Anyway keep posting,
Thanks
DF1

Greetings DF1,

I have contributed to the other discussion.

I hope through the OT examples I have been able to show that God made circumcision a sign of salvation under the old covenant. All who would come into the OT covenant body; Israel would receive the sign. The sign was not given for salvation, but pointed to the circumcision of the heart that is salvation. The sign merely establishes that the recipient now belongs to a covenant people of God outwardly, not inwardly. If it were the sign of inward cleansing of the heart, then God would have forbidden that even reprobates like Ishmael and Esau should receive the sign.

A woman desiring to come into OT Israel would have to be covered through male headship. We find this expressed in the book of Ruth. In order for Ruth to become part of covenant Israel she must have a kinsmen redeemer, in her case Boaz. To be part of the OT covenant body you must be born into the nation and circumcised if you were a male, or a female must be covered through the headship of her father or husband.

Now I hope to show covenant continuity through the new sign of covenantal inclusion; i.e. water baptism. Jesus has fulfilled the vows and promises of the Old Testament. This He accomplished through His life, death and resurrection. When Christ came He established a new covenant sign, which is water baptism. It is important to remember that this is not a new covenant, simply a new covenant sign. It is the same everlasting covenant that God gave to Abraham and his children, his children’s children, their children’s children etc.

Just as the outward sign of circumcision marked a person’s entrance into the covenant body; Israel in the OT, now entrance into the covenant body; the external church is through the outward sign of water baptism. Why water baptism as the new sign? Because water signifies an outward cleansing of the flesh, and points to the supernatural inward cleansing of the heart through baptism of the Holy Spirit. Just as circumcision signified an outward cleansing, pointing to the supernatural inward cleansing through the circumcision of the heart.

Under the new covenant sign there is no distinction between male or female, young or old, Jew or Gentile. Every person coming into the covenant body (church) is commanded to receive the outward sign. Sometimes this is proceeded by a profession of faith, but the sign is not limited to only those making profession. As people were converted at the beginning of the church, not only were they baptized but their families were also baptized. When Lydia believed the gospel, Paul baptized both her and her whole household (Acts 16:15). Also after the Philippian jailer believed, he and his household were baptized (Acts 16:33-34). Paul mentions baptizing certain individuals in Corinth, and also mentions baptizing the household of Stephanas (1Co 1:16). Clearly the outward sign of cleansing cannot be mistaken for the supernatural inward cleansing of the heart through Holy Spirit baptism.

So back to the OP…is water baptism an outward sign of an inward change? It might well be, but the purpose for water baptism is to bring the recipient into the covenant body, the church. Since Christ has promised to bless His covenant body the church in the same way He blessed His covenant people Israel, why would we forbid administering the sign to our covenant children?

Many Blessings,
RW

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 06:10 PM
I disagree that baptism is a "work of the law."


But it is indeed found in Torah again and again.

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 06:13 PM
??? your scaring me now! PLease amplify.. that is one of my favorite passages and now I think I may need a straightening out!:o


Nothing to be scared of. It is the age old concept of justification by faith. Works of the law cannot save, however, they do reveal our justification by faith. Water Baptism does not save. Loving our brothers does not save. It is by faith alone. Do we then make void the law through faith? No, we establish the law.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 06:15 PM
Roger,
What do you think of the following?

...That every church has there own particular rituals, some more, some less, some very few. But all churches practice some ritual or style of worship...
It is not a sin per se, to have a ritual unless you ascribe benefits to it.

Therefore if you want to be dunked, or have a ice cream plopped on your head, as a ritual of devotion to God then that is fine.

Obviously the icecream point was to point out that whereas icecream isnt in the BIble its not a sin to demonstrate devotion that way, but Water dunking is in the Bible and since no harm is created(unless they believe it imparts some spiritual gift) then no harm is done?
Did I make sense? I thnik my brian is wobblying:lol:

Hi Dragonfighter1,

Have you ever heard of the Regulative Principle? If it is not clearly ascribed in Scripture, then it ought not be done. We MUST worship in the manner the Lord ascribes, and not according to the desires of our hearts. For your consideration remember the two sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, who offered strange fire unto the Lord.

Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

They thought they were worshipping in a way that would please the LORD, but the strange fire they offered came from their own imagination, and not from God...as we can see God was not pleased with their vain worship. We need to heed their example.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 06:17 PM
Jn 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV

I disagree that baptism is a "work of the law."

Greetings RoadWarrior,

Perhaps not a work of the Mosiac Law. However it can be a work if we think being baptized in water will save us.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 06:26 PM
The same thing Jesus said, be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. Paul also links water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:5 ( KJV ) 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Here Paul says God saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. This washing of regeneration or rebirth cannot be a Spirit baptism because Paul also mentions the Spirit baptism in addition to the washing of regeneration which is water baptism. Peter says the same thing in His epistle.I disagree. Scripture says it is the baptism of the Spirit that saves us and places us in the body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Peter says the 8 souls were saved by water. He says baptism saves us, he has linked this to water baptism by His reference to the 8 souls who were saved by water. However notice He says it is not the water that is saving but it is the answer of a good conscience before God. So it is God saving in the water. So no, baptism is not a symbol, it is how our sins are forgiven and how we are prepared for the Holy Spirit.

I like the KJV, but that is a poor translation of the passage because it leads people like yourself into thinking that Noah and his family were saved from death by the water of the flood. Think about it! Is that really true? No! The waters of the flood killed everyone but Noah and his family. It was the ark that kept Noah and his family from dying in the flood. Here is the passage in the NASB translation:

1 Peter 3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Again, it wasn't the water that kept Noah and his family safe. It was the ark. That had to do with being kept safe from physical death. Spiritually speaking, we are kept safe from spiritual death (the second death) by way of being baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit with the baptism of the Spirit.

uric3
Oct 21st 2008, 06:34 PM
Greetings RoadWarrior,

Perhaps not a work of the Mosiac Law. However it can be a work if we think being baptized in water will save us.

Many Blessings,
RW

I think when it comes to our salvation everything is a work... even our faith. In our daily lives we do all kinds of works that are a part of our salvation and belief in Christ, from Prayer, Teaching, Giving, etc... those are all works. According to John 6:28-29 even faith is a work.

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."


Also James states in chapter 2 that faith without works is dead...


So whats he mean when its stated that Eph 2:8-10 "...Not of works, lest any man should boast..." pertaining to our salvation through grace?


I think it simply is stating that don't do works on our own accord to please God... such as I'll give this much or do this work which will earn my way into heaven...


Honestly how can one boost of a work God ask them to do? Such as faith, prayer, baptism etc... they are required of all of us... not like we went above and beyond... we just do as God commands us. Thus we can't boost since we are doing what we are told.

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 06:37 PM
Since water baptism is the only baptism that anyone was ever commanded to submit to, and since Holy Spirit baptism was for a limited time and purpose, then water baptism is what people must submit to in order to become Christians.

No one was ever commanded to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. God only commands that which we are capable of obeying. Holy Spirit baptism was something God did to them, not something the disciples could do on their own.

The Bible clearly states that water baptism is required to have sins washed away (Acts 22:16). One is not a Christian until he or she is immersed in water in obedience to God's command. Therefore baptism is not an outward sign of an inward grace. It is an essential step for salvation.

Then what of the Thief on the Cross? What about all the OT Saints that were said to be found faithful? Moses, Abraham, etc.. They likely were not baptized with water baptism, are you saying that anyone before Christ would then be not saved?

Hebrews 11:4-7
"4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

As it is written the Just shall live by faith. Water baptism does NOT save, it does not do anything for someone without faith instead of make them wet. The real baptism is that which happens in the heart and is performed by the Holy Spirit.


As far as Works, yes works will come if you are a believer, they are evidence of the change within, but James said you say you have faith, great, I'll show you my faith by my works. Works are intended to demonstrate the change in the heart.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 06:49 PM
Can you explain Acts 8 then if baptism in Christ is only Holy Spirit Baptism?

We see in Acts 8:12 that both men and women where baptized in to Christ yet none of them got the holy spirit... until the apostles laid their hands on them... which is how we see people got the holy spirit at the time...

Greetings Uric3,

Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

They were all baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ, just as Christ had commanded them to be.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



Also look at Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice they had to be baptized into the Christ first then they would get the gift of the holy spirit... just like we saw in Acts 8...

Again, they are baptized in water (John's baptism) in the name of Christ in obedience to His command. The water baptism does not save them, but the Holy Spirit baptism they would receive does.



Also if water baptism isn't important why did Paul command people to do it? Read Acts 10:46-48 seems like it wasn't an option if he commanded it being inspired...

I have never said that water baptism is not important. It is a command that Christ left us with. All of His commands are given to be obeyed. Isn't it interesting that in Acts 10 we find evidence that the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon Gentiles who had not been baptized in water. Even though they spoke in tongues proving they had been born again, the sign of covenant inclusion was still necessary.

Interestingly we find in Acts accounts of water baptism then afterward receiving the Holy Spirit, and also baptism of the Holy Spirit before receiving the covenant sign through water baptism. This alone ought to be enough to convince us that water baptism is not given to be a sign of an inward change.



Also you quoted 1st Peter 3:20-21 which is referring to water baptism... which states its not for washing away the filth of the flesh but an answer in a good conscience toward God. Holy Spirit Baptism isn't mentioned there... the passages is an apology of the water in Noah's day to the waters of baptism... "...eight souls were saved by water..." "...like unto baptism doth now also save us..."

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"Like figure" means antitype, representative, counterpart. In other words the water that saved Noah and his family represents, symbolizes or points to the true Holy Spirit baptism that saves. Water baptism may make the filth of our flesh appear clean, but Holy Spirit baptism that water points to, gives us a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.



Once again only two groups of ppl was shown get the baptism of the holy spirit everyone else got it via the laying on of hands... if you can think of anyone else who got the baptism like described in Acts 2 other than two groups of people... than please let me know...

I think you are misunderstanding water baptism in Christ name, with Holy Spirit baptism through Christ. Receiving Holy Spirit baptism through laying on of the Apostles hands was done at the beginning of the NT church era to prove the message and the messengers (Apostles) were from God.

Many Blessings,
RW

uric3
Oct 21st 2008, 06:54 PM
Then what of the Thief on the Cross? What about all the OT Saints that were said to be found faithful? Moses, Abraham, etc.. They likely were not baptized with water baptism, are you saying that anyone before Christ would then be not saved?

Hebrews 11:4-7
"4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

As it is written the Just shall live by faith. Water baptism does NOT save, it does not do anything for someone without faith instead of make them wet. The real baptism is that which happens in the heart and is performed by the Holy Spirit.


As far as Works, yes works will come if you are a believer, they are evidence of the change within, but James said you say you have faith, great, I'll show you my faith by my works. Works are intended to demonstrate the change in the heart.

When you look at the thief on the cross the commanded to be baptized didn't come into affect until after Christ was raised from the dead. Therefore at the time of the thiefs death it wasn't commanded.

Look at Hebrews 9:13-17 "A testament is of no affect at all while the testator liveth..." so while Christ was alive there was no NT in affect... Christ lived and practiced the OT during his life... after his death is when the NT church started...

As stated before Acts 22:16 shows baptism washes away our sins... but while Chirst was on earth he had the ability to forgive them... Mark 2:9-10 "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins" After him taking his place on the right hand of God we use Baptism to wash those sins away.

As for those who had gone on before we see in Col 2 that the blood of Christ cleans them because we know from Hebrews the Blood of Bulls and Goats did not...

I want to apologize for how quickly I wrote this will have to post more and edit this post when I have more time.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 07:12 PM
I think when it comes to our salvation everything is a work... even our faith. In our daily lives we do all kinds of works that are a part of our salvation and belief in Christ, from Prayer, Teaching, Giving, etc... those are all works. According to John 6:28-29 even faith is a work.

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Hi Uric,

I agree! We most certainly do have a work of faith that we MUST walk in. Notice though that the work of believing on Christ is NOT our work, but the work of God.



Also James states in chapter 2 that faith without works is dead...

Agreed!



So whats he mean when its stated that Eph 2:8-10 "...Not of works, lest any man should boast..." pertaining to our salvation through grace?

I think it simply is stating that don't do works on our own accord to please God... such as I'll give this much or do this work which will earn my way into heaven...

The passage tells us exactly what it means. In verse 5 of Eph 2 Paul tells us we are saved by grace. Then in verse 8 Paul shows how we are saved by grace. Through faith that is not our own, but a gift of God that no man should boast. Even our faith that saves us is not our own, but given us by God.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Verse 10 tells us we have been saved by grace through the gift of faith to be His workman, to do good works that have been ordained to us from the beginning. So very clearly we do have a work of faith to walk in.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 07:15 PM
I had a thought after I posted my question about the thief and those Prior to the crucifixion that you would say that. Isn't the washing away of sins a Spiritual, not a physical matter? The reason I ask is we ourselves were incapable of doing much of anything with our sins. That's why the Law came, that's why they had the sacrifices in the temple, and its why Christ died to be the final sacrifice.

However, if the OT saints, like Abraham, Isaac, Enoch, and Noah, were accounted righteous because of their faith. Adding Baptism of Water as a requirement would seem to be introducing a new message. Salvation is by faith through grace alone. If you add anything else to the prescription, then you are looking at a salvation made by works.

Roger,

That's an interesting way to read that passage. So am I understanding that you are saying that the faith we express that produces salvation is actual not on or own, but from God as well? If so that's a very interesting way to put that.

kf4zmt
Oct 21st 2008, 07:18 PM
Then what of the Thief on the Cross? What about all the OT Saints that were said to be found faithful? Moses, Abraham, etc.. They likely were not baptized with water baptism, are you saying that anyone before Christ would then be not saved?

Hebrews 11:4-7
"4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."

As it is written the Just shall live by faith. Water baptism does NOT save, it does not do anything for someone without faith instead of make them wet. The real baptism is that which happens in the heart and is performed by the Holy Spirit.


As far as Works, yes works will come if you are a believer, they are evidence of the change within, but James said you say you have faith, great, I'll show you my faith by my works. Works are intended to demonstrate the change in the heart.

Baptism was never a condition of salvation under the old covenant that God had with the nation of Israel. They were saved under entirely different conditions than people are today who are under the new covenant. Hebrews 8 & 9 talks extensively about the two covenants and their differences. Both covenants have in common that faith in God was/is essential.

The old covenant was in effect until the death of Jesus. The thief on the cross was subject to it as was Jesus. While on Earth, Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12). Jesus had the authority to forgive the thief of his sins, which he did. The thief was not required to be immersed in water to be saved simply because Jesus didn't require it of him.

As Hebrews 9:16-17 states, 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The testator (Jesus) died and His testament is now in effect. We now live under the new covenant which requires baptism for the remission of sins.

Regarding baptism being a work, please consider this. If we are not saved by works, then neither are we saved by belief. Jesus said in John 6:28-29 that belief is a work!

We are saved by faith of the right kind (obedient faith), and works of the right kind (works which God has given us to do). Only when the two are
combined can we be pleasing to God.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 10:38 PM
Roger,

That's an interesting way to read that passage. So am I understanding that you are saying that the faith we express that produces salvation is actual not on or own, but from God as well? If so that's a very interesting way to put that.

Greetings Veretax,

That seems to be what Eph 2 is teaching us. I believe this gift of faith comes through imputation of His righteousness just as shown in Abraham.

Ro 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 21st 2008, 11:57 PM
Except in this verse water is not equivalent to Water Baptism. Water symbolizes the physical birth we each have. (The mother's water is what is referenced here). The spirit birth is equivalent to when the second happens. Water does not save, only Faith in Christ's Sacrifice saves. To say that baptism saves is to make baptism a work which is necessary to salvation, and then in fact invalidates that by grace are we saved through faith.

Sorry my friend, water is not a reference to the mothers water. Jesus said unless one is born again, born of water and the Spirit. The Greek language doesn't allow for this to be the mother's water. If it is as you say, why would Jesus tell Nicodemus He had to be born physically? Who is going to come for salvation who hasn't been born physically? Paul said that God saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. So the washing of regeneration is "NOT" a work, as Paul says, it also in "NOT" Spirit baptism becasue that is also mentioned in this verse. The washing of regeneration is water baptism. It is the through water baptism that we receive the Spirit baptism. Now let me say, it is "NOT" the water that does it, it is God that saves in the water. This is also the understanding of the early church.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? "And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever." (Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. "And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,"
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

And I said to him, "I should like to continue my questions." "Speak on," said he. And I said, "I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins." He said to me, "That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of his sins ought not to sin any more, but to live in purity

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For," he continued, "before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160

Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160
But there is no other [way] than this,—to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives."

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.
In refuting the Gnostics

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180

"And dipped himself," says [the Scripture], "seven times in Jordan." (2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (John 3:5)
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria 195

Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ3III-2-3 Jesus Christ, are born in water,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

When, however, the prescript is laid down that "without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life" (John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228

Matthew alone adds the words "to repentance," teaching that the benefit of baptism is connected with the intention of the baptized person; to him who repents it is salutary, but to him who comes to it without repentance it will turn to greater condemnation.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228
"by the laver of regeneration," (Titus 3:5) through which they were born "as new-born babes,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Pamohilius 309

Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:38 AM
Sorry my friend, water is not a reference to the mothers water. Jesus said unless one is born again, born of water and the Spirit. The Greek language doesn't allow for this to be the mother's water. If it is as you say, why would Jesus tell Nicodemus He had to be born physically? Who is going to come for salvation who hasn't been born physically? Paul said that God saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. So the washing of regeneration is "NOT" a work, as Paul says, it also in "NOT" Spirit baptism becasue that is also mentioned in this verse. The washing of regeneration is water baptism. It is the through water baptism that we receive the Spirit baptism. Now let me say, it is "NOT" the water that does it, it is God that saves in the water. This is also the understanding of the early church.

Greetings Butch,

I would agree with you that this is not speaking of physical birth. I believe the water is the washing of regeneration we receive through the renewing of the Holy Spirit, a washing/cleansing/purifying through the power of the Word. There are many references to this purifying water of salvation throughout Scripture. We are born again of the Holy Spirit and washing through the purifying water from Christ.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ps 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:52 AM
John 3:3-8
"3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

That's the context of the passage. Now why would he say born of water and Spirit, and then go and say those born of flessh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is a spirit. Are these not parallel and similar passages? This is why I've believed tat born of Water symbolizes the Physical birth, and Nicodemus marvells, and Jesus tells him essentially even if it were possible to go back into the womb to be reborn in the Spirit.

It's a puzzle, however, I've been operating from online sources, and felt it was time to pull out my trusty study bible that I normally use in daily study. After reviewing some of the notes (not that I believe the notes are inspired, but they are usually reliable enough that I would trust them), they seem to agree with what you have said, that Jesus was referencing the cleansing from washing that was commonly referenced in the OT, although it is also possible it was the Baptism of John. The Symbolism RogerW has so eloquently put Hrms... I am going to have to meditate on that passage some more, thank you for leading me to what appears to be a better interpretation.

This is why I came searching for a forum like this. Since College, I've missed fellowship like this with believers who enjoyed discussing things like this without fear, just for the sake of discussing and learning and growing in the Word. I thank you all for correcting me here.

It occurs to me that mabe I've got my passages mixed up in my head too....hrms. I'll ponder that some more when I have more time.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:51 AM
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Many Blessings,
RW

Roger,
One thing I have noticed about many who are adamant about the use of liquid water is ...hmmm... its almost indefinable to communicate- I'll try....
.... The agency of the subject (or is it the agency of the object) is often missed. Look at the verse above. Jesus does the sanctifying, Jesus does the Justifying, Jesus does the Washing. No liquid water is involved!

Washed in the word.... does not mean washed in wet water while invoking the name of the Lord Jesus....

the verse end....by the Spirit of our God. The agency is the spirit not wet water.
The primary meaning of baptidzo is the cleansing/changing aspect, not wetness.
I dont know if I explained myself well. What say you?

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:59 AM
I've had the opportunity now to read up a bit more on this. Thanks in part to my Study Bible, but also to a man who used to be my Campus Pastor. He reminded me of a passage in Ezkekial and also linked me to a paster by John Piper (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2007/2522/) (technically the second part of a sermon he gave last year). (and I wholly recommend it, its a good read on this section)

First I have to acknowledge how did I come to this error? It has been far to easy for me in devotions at times to read quickly through a passage such as this, and intending to get to the section I know has great spiritual truth, and then allow my own mind to read what is not in this passage.

What is the theme of this entire section of John? It is being born-again. Who was Jesus speaking to? Nichodemus, a Pharisee and a teacher of the OT law. We know this clearly because Jesus asks him

John 3:10-12
"10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Jesus is clearly not referencing some "new truth" that's been held hidden from the Jews. Instead, what he is doing is alluding to the Old testament law and the prophets. In Particular: Ezekial 36:24+..

Ezk 36:24-28
" 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. "


In Ezekial God is talking about cleansing that will happen after he gathers them back to the land. He speaks of sprinkling clean water on them that they may be clean, and be cleansed from the filthiness of their sin and all idols. Which is interesting.

Comparing this to what Christ said in John 3

"5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”"

So if we consider this, in order to be saved we must be made clean in heart, and we must be born of that new Spirit which is from God.

really that message from John Piper (http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2007/2522/) really clarified things for me I'd recommend it to anyone who has been wondering, it certainly corrected and confirmed what others have been saying here.

kf4zmt
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:57 PM
Again, they are baptized in water (John's baptism) in the name of Christ in obedience to His command. The water baptism does not save them, but the Holy Spirit baptism they would receive does.

RW

RogerW - Can you please clarify? Are you saying that all baptism in water, including what is practiced today, is John's baptism?

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:16 PM
Roger,
One thing I have noticed about many who are adamant about the use of liquid water is ...hmmm... its almost indefinable to communicate- I'll try....
.... The agency of the subject (or is it the agency of the object) is often missed. Look at the verse above. Jesus does the sanctifying, Jesus does the Justifying, Jesus does the Washing. No liquid water is involved!

Washed in the word.... does not mean washed in wet water while invoking the name of the Lord Jesus....

the verse end....by the Spirit of our God. The agency is the spirit not wet water.
The primary meaning of baptidzo is the cleansing/changing aspect, not wetness.
I dont know if I explained myself well. What say you?

Greetings DF1,

I totally agree!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:36 PM
John 3:3-8
"3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

That's the context of the passage. Now why would he say born of water and Spirit, and then go and say those born of flessh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is a spirit. Are these not parallel and similar passages? This is why I've believed tat born of Water symbolizes the Physical birth, and Nicodemus marvells, and Jesus tells him essentially even if it were possible to go back into the womb to be reborn in the Spirit.

It's a puzzle, however, I've been operating from online sources, and felt it was time to pull out my trusty study bible that I normally use in daily study. After reviewing some of the notes (not that I believe the notes are inspired, but they are usually reliable enough that I would trust them), they seem to agree with what you have said, that Jesus was referencing the cleansing from washing that was commonly referenced in the OT, although it is also possible it was the Baptism of John. The Symbolism RogerW has so eloquently put Hrms... I am going to have to meditate on that passage some more, thank you for leading me to what appears to be a better interpretation.

This is why I came searching for a forum like this. Since College, I've missed fellowship like this with believers who enjoyed discussing things like this without fear, just for the sake of discussing and learning and growing in the Word. I thank you all for correcting me here.

It occurs to me that mabe I've got my passages mixed up in my head too....hrms. I'll ponder that some more when I have more time.

Greetings Veretax,

It would not have mattered what I or anyone else said if there was not Scripture support. The truth is, that you are more interested in truth than being right, so you showed your honorable study by being open to the Scripture. That's an extraordinary blessing, praise God.

I know what you mean about these forums. I have often said that if it weren't for being able to discuss biblical truths in these forums, I think I might starve to death. It saddens me greatly to see how so many professing Christians have little, if any interest in study of the Word of God. Even in my own Reformed Church.

We keep hearing "we don't want to do church, we want to be church." Sounds good...right? Until you ask them what that means. What it means in our particular church is that we want to have less preaching and more time devoted to special music, testimonies, and praise bands. WE have cut Bible study to two days a month, and since attendance is very poor, there is talk of getting rid of even these two days. We have cut SS to 30 min or less (depending on how long fellowship is) and again most of our congregation continues with their weekly fellowship hour rather than attending.

Our congregation is no longer interested in singing from the psalms because they are old fashioned and boring. Of course with the psalms we mostly sing of what God has done for His people. But our congregation wants to sing modern praise songs that speak of what we do for God, with incredible repetition of one line over and over.

Finally our congregation doesn't want to hear messages that convict them of their sinfulness, or remind them of our need to repent and turn away from evil. And since they get very upset if worship should extend beyond noon, we must shorten the message to no longer than 15 to 20 minutes.

Needless to say I am in the minority in our church. Most look at me like I have two heads because I want more preaching, teaching, and prayer. What the heck is wrong with me anyway???

Thanks for allowing me to have my little rant! I've taken a deep breath, so now I can tell you that I too once thought this passage was speaking of physical birth. Another faithful Christian brother showed me why I was mistaken, and I too expressed gratitude for his help. Thanks for you willingness to discuss these things in a manner that brings honor and glory to our blessed Lord.

God Bless You,
RW

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:28 PM
RogerW - Can you please clarify? Are you saying that all baptism in water, including what is practiced today, is John's baptism?

Greetings kf,

I believe Scripture shows us that water baptism signifies coming into the covenant body, or the external church. Anyone can come into covenant relationship through water baptism, even reprobates. Being in covenant with God does not necessarily mean we are part of His eternal bride. I don't believe that water baptism was ever a means of salvation. Although one who has been born again of the Spirit might certainly be baptized in obedience to Christ's command. The only baptism for salvation is Spiritual. That is what Christ means when He tells Nicodemus "you must be born again", re-born of the Spirit through the washing or cleansing water of regeneration is how we become saved. It is all of the Lord and none of us. Salvation is of the Lord!

Baptism shows we belong to His church outwardly, but only those who are re-born of the Spirit belong to His eternal Church, or are His Bride. So in answer to your question, yes every baptism in water is the baptism of repentance that John preached. It is not an outward sign of an inward change, even though some who receive the sign have been born of the Spirit. Water baptism signifies becoming part of His body outwardly (member of the church in time).

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:43 PM
Greetings Veretax,

It would not have mattered what I or anyone else said if there was not Scripture support. The truth is, that you are more interested in truth than being right, so you showed your honorable study by being open to the Scripture. That's an extraordinary blessing, praise God.

I blame that reformed up bringing of mine, but truthfully since I got that first New Geneva Study bible (12 years ago), I strive to know what is true, even if it means I'm wrong. Discussions like this are very fruitful, because I think it helps confirm whether you are walking with the Lord and seeking all Truth about him, or if you are just a mime, going through the motions but have no real love. That's how I feel about it.

College was probably the Best time for me, because I was out from under my parents, I was able to check out multiple churches (there was no PCA Church, So I visited 4 Churches in my time there, er make that 5. Of them one was a Mainline Presbyterian Church that was more interested in boasting membership numbers, one was an orthodox presbyterian church which was similar the church I grew up in, but held a bit more firmer opinion on needing to keep the law as I recall, the third was a missionary church, which was so large at the time it scared me away, the fourth and fifth where a fundamental baptist church, where the Lord began to really open the scriptures to me and I spent most of my time there, ironically, and a non-denominational church that had a more low key praise band.

However, I think the best thing I learned was how much you can get out of 30-60 minutes a day in the word. My freshmen year I began to have lunch with God every single day, and I just have never been able to get enough of it since. Yeah there are times when things get difficult and life will toss me out of my routine, but I strive for these things. Lately, I've been feeling like the Church I go to is a family, in which my wife and I are the main young family in the church. I miss fellowship with people my age, and that along with my desire for discussion lead me to goog for this site.

When My parents moved after I graduated High School, even when I came home I felt out of place. The Reformed Church we went to on vacation to that same area was missing something. A lot of the teens that were my age were to carnally minded and I found it disruptive. Its a shame cause the pastor was a pretty solid guy. i ended up attending a Non-Denominational church in my parents town, that I joined after graduating from college, and I loved the people in that church and especially the saturday morning mens prayer and bible study, when I moved nothing seemed to really quite compare so I tried to be careful and pick what I thought was a doctrinally sound church, but in the end I began to feel they were tending to what I've termed Hyper-Legalism, and it drove my family to where we are now.

All through that I've been busy in the Word and tryin to learn what God has for me and that's all we can ask. I'm a person who believes in a bit of balance in our lives. I am sorry to hear about you attendance troubles though that's a bummer. Does you church do any weekly visitation?

Nods, and God Bless.

kf4zmt
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:19 PM
Greetings kf,

I believe Scripture shows us that water baptism signifies coming into the covenant body, or the external church. Anyone can come into covenant relationship through water baptism, even reprobates. Being in covenant with God does not necessarily mean we are part of His eternal bride. I don't believe that water baptism was ever a means of salvation. Although one who has been born again of the Spirit might certainly be baptized in obedience to Christ's command. The only baptism for salvation is Spiritual. That is what Christ means when He tells Nicodemus "you must be born again", re-born of the Spirit through the washing or cleansing water of regeneration is how we become saved. It is all of the Lord and none of us. Salvation is of the Lord!

Baptism shows we belong to His church outwardly, but only those who are re-born of the Spirit belong to His eternal Church, or are His Bride. So in answer to your question, yes every baptism in water is the baptism of repentance that John preached. It is not an outward sign of an inward change, even though some who receive the sign have been born of the Spirit. Water baptism signifies becoming part of His body outwardly (member of the church in time).

Many Blessings,
RW

This is the first time I've ever heard someone say that John's baptism is still in effect. Because I've never heard of it doesn't make it wrong, but I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around that idea.

I don't mean to make you rehash Acts 19, but it seems to me that the baptism of John, the baptism in the name of Christ and the laying on of the apostle's hands are all present in vs 3-6.

The first baptism mentioned is John's baptism in vs 3: And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

In vs 4 Paul explained in greater detail about the purpose of John's baptism and how it looked forward to the Christ.

Verses 5 & 6 are two distinct actions which are joined by the word "and":

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Notice that they were baptized (second baptism) in the name of Jesus AND Paul laid his hands upon them resulting in them receiving miraculous gifts of the Holy Ghost (not a baptism).

Notice the two distinct events taking place connected by "AND". Evidently they understood that John's baptism was not sufficient and they were baptized with Christ's baptism. After this, Paul imparted spiritual gifts to them like Peter and John did in Acts 8:18.

The only recorded cases of baptism in the Holy Spirit are the apostles in Acts 2 and Cornelius' household in Acts 10. In both of these cases of Holy Spirit baptism, it was administered without human intervention. Everywhere else where miraculous gifts were imparted, it was administered though the laying on of hands by one of the apostles.

Ephesians 4:5 says there is only one baptism. There is ample evidence that this baptism is in water. Holy Spirit baptism was not the norm even in the first century.

Where am I going wrong?

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:36 PM
Greetings Veretax,

That seems to be what Eph 2 is teaching us. I believe this gift of faith comes through imputation of His righteousness just as shown in Abraham.

Ro 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Many Blessings,
RWTo be imputed with righteousness is to be credited with righteousness. Abraham was credited or accounted with righteousness on account of his own faith. It wasn't that he was righteous, but his faith was credited to him as righteousness by God. What that means is that Abraham's faith pleased God. For "without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is" (Heb 11:6).

Romans 4
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Genesis 15:6
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

You have things backwards. You have God counting/reckoning/accounting/imputing His righteousness to people so that they can have faith. That's not what scripture teaches. These scriptures teach that people have faith and God credits and counts their faith to them for righteousness.

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:06 PM
I believe that the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts at the moment of Salvation, and indwells us, and in so doing, that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. No I know some churches preach there is a second baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I don't necessarily agree with that.

RogerW
Oct 22nd 2008, 11:59 PM
This is the first time I've ever heard someone say that John's baptism is still in effect. Because I've never heard of it doesn't make it wrong, but I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around that idea.

Hi Kf,

Perhaps if I describe what I believe happens when we are born again of the Spirit we can reach mutual understanding. I'm not convinced we are that far apart here.

Obviously water baptism is not literally John's baptism. How could it be since John the Baptist is long departed. But water baptism is still preached as a baptism of repentance, not salvation or forgiveness, although we do baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Again, when we are baptized in water we become identified with the body of Christ outwardly, as members of the church in time. There are great advantages for being identified with His church in time, just as there was great advantage for being His covenant people in the OT times.



I don't mean to make you rehash Acts 19, but it seems to me that the baptism of John, the baptism in the name of Christ and the laying on of the apostle's hands are all present in vs 3-6.

The first baptism mentioned is John's baptism in vs 3: And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

In vs 4 Paul explained in greater detail about the purpose of John's baptism and how it looked forward to the Christ.

Verses 5 & 6 are two distinct actions which are joined by the word "and":

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Notice that they were baptized (second baptism) in the name of Jesus AND Paul laid his hands upon them resulting in them receiving miraculous gifts of the Holy Ghost (not a baptism).

Notice the two distinct events taking place connected by "AND". Evidently they understood that John's baptism was not sufficient and they were baptized with Christ's baptism. After this, Paul imparted spiritual gifts to them like Peter and John did in Acts 8:18.

The only recorded cases of baptism in the Holy Spirit are the apostles in Acts 2 and Cornelius' household in Acts 10. In both of these cases of Holy Spirit baptism, it was administered without human intervention. Everywhere else where miraculous gifts were imparted, it was administered though the laying on of hands by one of the apostles.

Ephesians 4:5 says there is only one baptism. There is ample evidence that this baptism is in water. Holy Spirit baptism was not the norm even in the first century.

Where am I going wrong?

I believe the Holy Spirit baptisms recorded in Acts are not any different then every believer being born again through the Spirit. Pentecost (Acts 2) marked the beginning of the ministry of the Holy Spirit that Christ had promised He would send to indwell believers. If there had not been the supernatural sign given by speaking in other tongues, who would have believed the message or the messengers were sent from God? The same thing in Acts 10. If there had been no supernatural sign given then who would believe that God had opened the door of salvation unto the Gentiles? This is why these incidents of being born again of the Spirit appear to be something altogether different then being born again of the Spirit elsewhere in Scripture. It is not different, it was simply greater magnified with a supernatural sign to prove it was of God.

In Acts 19 these 12 disciples had received John's baptism of repentance, which amounted to "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." But Paul spoke of the One they were told would come after John, and they should believe on Him for forgiveness of sins.

Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When these 12 disciples heard, they believed, then they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and when Paul laid his hands on them they were born again of the Spirit and began to speak with tongues and prophesy.

Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

If these 12 disciples of Christ had not received the supernatural sign of speaking in other tongues, who would believe their prophesy? When we find supernatural signs throughout Scripture it is always to prove that these messengers, and the message they come with are from God. God sent both the message and the messengers with great power, and unless this power from God was made manifest who would believe? Remember this is the beginning of the external church in time.

Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to every believer. He had, before Christ dwelt with them, but now Christ tells us He will be in us. Every believer receives the Holy Spirit when he/she is born again. How do we receive Him, being sealed forever? After hearing the gospel of salvation, and believing, then He seals us till the day of our bodily redemption. It's the same supernatural Spiritual re-birth, but without the supernatural sign. Now we have the complete Word of God so we no longer need these supernatural signs to prove the message is of God, and the Messenger is God.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:19 AM
To be imputed with righteousness is to be credited with righteousness. Abraham was credited or accounted with righteousness on account of his own faith. It wasn't that he was righteous, but his faith was credited to him as righteousness by God. What that means is that Abraham's faith pleased God. For "without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is" (Heb 11:6).

Romans 4
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Galatians 3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Genesis 15:6
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

You have things backwards. You have God counting/reckoning/accounting/imputing His righteousness to people so that they can have faith. That's not what scripture teaches. These scriptures teach that people have faith and God credits and counts their faith to them for righteousness.

Greetings Eric,

How did Abraham believe God? Isn't Abraham, like every man, born in Adam, therefore fallen, without spiritual life, in bondage to Satan, sin and death? Could Abraham have faith without having received the gift of faith from the Lord?

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ro 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Ro 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Ro 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Many Blessings,
RW

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:03 AM
Greetings DF1,

I have contributed to the other discussion.

I hope through the OT examples I have been able to show that God made circumcision a sign of salvation under the old covenant. All who would come into the OT covenant body; Israel would receive the sign. The sign was not given for salvation, but pointed to the circumcision of the heart that is salvation. The sign merely establishes that the recipient now belongs to a covenant people of God outwardly, not inwardly. If it were the sign of inward cleansing of the heart, then God would have forbidden that even reprobates like Ishmael and Esau should receive the sign.

A woman desiring to come into OT Israel would have to be covered through male headship. We find this expressed in the book of Ruth. In order for Ruth to become part of covenant Israel she must have a kinsmen redeemer, in her case Boaz. To be part of the OT covenant body you must be born into the nation and circumcised if you were a male, or a female must be covered through the headship of her father or husband.

Now I hope to show covenant continuity through the new sign of covenantal inclusion; i.e. water baptism. Jesus has fulfilled the vows and promises of the Old Testament. This He accomplished through His life, death and resurrection. When Christ came He established a new covenant sign, which is water baptism. It is important to remember that this is not a new covenant, simply a new covenant sign. It is the same everlasting covenant that God gave to Abraham and his children, his children’s children, their children’s children etc.

Just as the outward sign of circumcision marked a person’s entrance into the covenant body; Israel in the OT, now entrance into the covenant body; the external church is through the outward sign of water baptism. Why water baptism as the new sign? Because water signifies an outward cleansing of the flesh, and points to the supernatural inward cleansing of the heart through baptism of the Holy Spirit. Just as circumcision signified an outward cleansing, pointing to the supernatural inward cleansing through the circumcision of the heart.

Under the new covenant sign there is no distinction between male or female, young or old, Jew or Gentile. Every person coming into the covenant body (church) is commanded to receive the outward sign. Sometimes this is proceeded by a profession of faith, but the sign is not limited to only those making profession. As people were converted at the beginning of the church, not only were they baptized but their families were also baptized. When Lydia believed the gospel, Paul baptized both her and her whole household (Acts 16:15). Also after the Philippian jailer believed, he and his household were baptized (Acts 16:33-34). Paul mentions baptizing certain individuals in Corinth, and also mentions baptizing the household of Stephanas (1Co 1:16). Clearly the outward sign of cleansing cannot be mistaken for the supernatural inward cleansing of the heart through Holy Spirit baptism.

So back to the OP…is water baptism an outward sign of an inward change? It might well be, but the purpose for water baptism is to bring the recipient into the covenant body, the church. Since Christ has promised to bless His covenant body the church in the same way He blessed His covenant people Israel, why would we forbid administering the sign to our covenant children?

Many Blessings,
RW


Roger,
Never a dull post from you! Superb stuff there. Am learning to read slowly though...lol:lol:

Question: If its a symbol that brings you into a covenantal relationship, what is gained or lost/missed by doing or not doing it?

Thanks

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:58 AM
Be careful, is it the symbol that brings you into the relationship? Or is the symbol a sign of the relationship. Remember that some have and probably still do baptize the dead, or the dieing, the infants, etc. Abraham did not receive circumcision until he was accounted as Righteous by God.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:26 PM
Be careful, is it the symbol that brings you into the relationship? Or is the symbol a sign of the relationship. Remember that some have and probably still do baptize the dead, or the dieing, the infants, etc. Abraham did not receive circumcision until he was accounted as Righteous by God.
An Excellent point!:thumbsup:

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:58 PM
Hi all.:)
Been reading through the thread. Thought I'd throw in my perspective on the subject. :D

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
This verse says it all for me on baptism.

Though there is much meaning, first and foremost I believe this subject must be understood in the person of Christ. And in that respect, for one thing, it is a sign of obedience and faithfulness. This is what John's baptism of Jesus represented to the people who witnessed it. It is a sign in that it is seen, but it is also a vow in itself, that it acknowledges obedience and faithfulness.

I saw where some questioned the meaning or significance of John's baptism. Some things to consider, John was a prophet, the voice calling from the wilderness. Jesus is The Prophet spoken of in the OT, bear in mind that such titles aren't arbitrary but hold meaning for our understanding. With this understanding in our mind, Jesus is depicting with John the OT great prophets. We know, because scripture clearly says John is the spirit of Elijah, meaning the great prophets.

The clearest depiction in the OT, IMHO, is that of Eli and Samuel in 1 Samuel 3 (1 Kingdoms 3 if you use the Sept.). I don't believe it is a mistake that God calls three times (recollect the Trinity nature) to Samuel before Samuel realizes, after Eli tells him, it's the Lord God calling him and he is to answer Him. They are also in the temple which is a reference to the everlasting temple and priesthood.

Other things about Samuel that can relate to us about Jesus, are, his miraculous birth, his already having been committed to service of the temple before he was born (ie. The Servant title of Christ), he is the prophet who first anoints the first king of Israel, and he is who begins a school for prophets (both Saul and David prophesied with his school of prophets). So he is also the teacher of prophets (ie. The Teacher title of Christ).

All the signs of the great prophets were manifested in Jesus for Israel to recognize Him. (which included healing the sick, raising the dead etc)

Now, baptism is the literal placing of the individual into the corporal body of Christ. We die with Him, in that we are no longer of our individual self, and are resurrected with Him, in that we have become a "new thing" as Him in His corporal ( meant in the adjective, "of the body" or also known as "corpus") Body.

Therefore, it is a sign of our obedience/faithfulness, as well as a sign before witnesses of our vow of obedience/faithfulness, to God, God also being a witness for us. But it is also a literal placing into the Body.

Ecc 9:8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. ointment is anointing oil, relating of the Holy Spirit which anointed the Body the Church

Sgs 1:3 Because of the savour of thy good ointments thy name ointment poured forth, therefore do the virgins love thee.

Mat 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat [at meat].

Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

Without such as this, it is as Isaiah said.

Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head [there is] no soundness in it; [but] wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

This is how our body looks when we come to the "voice calling". He being the good Samaritan "went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him" (Luke 10:34).

To those who disregard infant baptism, I say, would the Lord deny a child (Matt. 19:14, Mk 10:14, Lk 18:16), and would baptized parents not be obedient in doing likewise to their child ( the first and greatest commandment Deut. 6:5, Matt. 22:37,38, Mk 12:30, Lk 10:27) .
Are Christian parents not charged with the same command from the spiritual book of Deut. 4:10
" Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and [that] they may teach their children."

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

_____________________________

Signs for witnesses are only good if they are both in "word and deed".

Luk 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

2Cr 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such [will we be] also in deed when we are present.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Deu 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. [i]The Sept. version reads, "in your mouth, in your heart, and in your hands"

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

As Paul explains in Romans 10, your salvation is not far. The word is very near a person that it is in one's very "mouth", "heart", and "hands". In Deut. Moses shows how we attain righteousness before God through faith. It's not a matter of "who will ascend to heaven" or "who will go over the sea for us" which is another way of saying, how can this be.
On another score, Paul also makes the word of faith easy and says, "God raised Him from the dead." 'Just reflect upon the worthiness of the Worker, and you will no longer see any difficulty in the thing' John Chrysostom.

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:28 PM
Roger,
Never a dull post from you! Superb stuff there. Am learning to read slowly though...lol:lol:

Question: If its a symbol that brings you into a covenantal relationship, what is gained or lost/missed by doing or not doing it?

Thanks

Hi DF1,

We find in the OT that God is very serious about His covenantal sign of circumcision. Left uncircumcised [unbaptized] means His covenant has been broken, and the uncircumcised [unbaptized] persons would be cut off from among His people. That means that the blessings God bestows upon His covenant people, are no longer available to those left uncircumcised [unbaptized]. They are exactly like the rest of the world, without God and without hope, and they will receive none of the external blessings God bestows on His covenant people, and in addition they have lost all hope of ever receiving the eternal blessing of everlasting life through Christ.

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Paul asks the same question. What advantage has the Jew, or what profit is circumcision? He tells us that the Jews boast of their knowledge of God, being instructed out of the law. They were to be guides for the blind, and instructors and teachers of the truth in the law. Paul says there was much advantage to being a Jew, belonging to Israel, because they alone had received of God the things pertaining to adoption, glory, the law, and the promises. Christ came from Israel, born a Jew. The Jews alone had the prophets, the Temple, the priests, taught what is required of God in true worship. They alone received the blessings from God through the knowledge of God. Therefore being among the covenant people of God was the way to know what God requires of His people and how we are to love God with all our hearts, minds and strength.

Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Ro 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Ro 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Ro 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Ro 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

But now comes John introducing all men to a new way to know God, through Christ. The law and the prophets were until John, but Christ has come to fulfill all the requirements of the law. John tells us the kingdom of God that has been preached in now near unto all who call on the name of the Lord. The new message John brought was "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." The kingdom is hear, it has finally arrived, now repent, turn away from your sins and believe on Christ.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John introduces us to a new covenant sign; baptism, which signifies cleansing or washing away the sins of the flesh. Christ too received the sign even though He Himself was without sin. But this shows the importance of following the example of Christ in obedience to receive the new covenant sign. Christ left us with a command:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why, since it is only a sign of covenantal inclusion outwardly, just like circumcision was in the OT? The main reason we obey is because it is a command of our Lord. What advantage do we have being identified with the covenant body of Christ in the world? What special blessings does the church alone receive from God? Who was given the Word of God and commissioned to preach the gospel of salvation unto all nations? What advantage is there in being under the hearing of His Word? When these questions are answered I think we will agree that there is great advantage to being among the covenantal people of God.

For this reason we should not deny the sign [water baptism] to anyone who professes to believe, or to our covenant children. Just as God did not deny the covenant sign to every male in the OT, neither should we deny the covenant sign to every child born into a covenant home. We'll administer the sign, and teach and train our children the ways of God, and let God determine whether they will one day profess a saving love for the Lord, or they will one day show themselves to be reprobates like Ishmael, and Esau (who received the covenant sign).

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:57 PM
Be careful, is it the symbol that brings you into the relationship? Or is the symbol a sign of the relationship. Remember that some have and probably still do baptize the dead, or the dieing, the infants, etc. Abraham did not receive circumcision until he was accounted as Righteous by God.

Greetings Veretax,

I would agree that it is a sign or symbol of a relationship, I would simply add the relationship is with God's covenant body, or the external church, but it is not necessarily a sign or symbol of eternal relationship with the Lord. Many people receive the outward sign/symbol without ever having a saving relationship with God.

I think it important also to remember that Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was counted (reckoned, imputed, concluded) unto him for righteousness. This faith cannot be Abraham's work or righteousness would be a reward rather than of grace. His believing (faith) ON "Him that justifies" therefore "his faith" (ability to believe) is counted (reckoned, imputed, concluded) for righteousness. Abraham's righteousness, Abraham's faith...NO! But faith and righteousness as the gift of God that neither Abraham nor any man may boast.

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift ofrighteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:05 PM
The following are questions primarily geared towards the "tradition" of infant baptism. Some of them might also apply to the practices applied in some churches of baptizing the dead or near dead as well, but I'm primarily concerned with infant baptism. They should be simple and straight forward questions to answer, so I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and those thoughts hopefully will come from God's word.

1. If it is an act of faithfulness and obedience, to whom is being faithful in obedience when Baptism is administered?
2. In the OT and NT Prior to Christ's Ministry, what did Baptism, and ceremonial washing signify and why was it necessary?
3. If it is meant as a sign, to whom is it intended, is it God, God's People/Children, or the Unsaved/Unchurched?
4. What did Samuel anoint the kings with? What did prophets before him anoint the Judges with? What did that anointing symbolize?
5. If it is a vow of obedience and faithfulness who is taking the vow and to whom will it be held accountable?
6. (Other than what was mentioned in 4) What was anointing oil used for in reference to individuals (there appear to be at least 2 if not 3 things) (not temple/tabernacle preparation?), what did it symbolize?
7. When Jesus said not to forbid the children did he ask the disciples to compel the children to come (Yes or No)? Also, are there any references of Jesus or the Disciples baptizing infants?
8. If a parent is having their child baptized, is that obedience translated to the child which cannot exercise its own will (Yes or No)?
9. For Circumcision who explicitly required that the entire household's male population be circumcised?
10. John's Baptism was always accompanied by repentance. If as with all Washings in the OT that sin was repented/confessed, is this not the same with Baptism in Christ? How then is this accomplished via this other baptism?
11. In the Acts, which comes first hearing of the word, repentance and belief, or baptism?
12. In the Acts or Epistles, are there any references to anyone being baptized as an infant (Yes or No)?


(Also as an aside, Samuel and Eli, assuming it wasn't their tent, it would have to have been the Tabernacle... not the Temple. the temple wasn't built till after David was king.)



I suspect some of these questions will be helpful, before any further discussion is made.

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:07 PM
Roger,
One thing I have noticed about many who are adamant about the use of liquid water is ...hmmm... its almost indefinable to communicate- I'll try....
.... The agency of the subject (or is it the agency of the object) is often missed. Look at the verse above. Jesus does the sanctifying, Jesus does the Justifying, Jesus does the Washing. No liquid water is involved!

Washed in the word.... does not mean washed in wet water while invoking the name of the Lord Jesus....

the verse end....by the Spirit of our God. The agency is the spirit not wet water.
The primary meaning of baptidzo is the cleansing/changing aspect, not wetness.
I dont know if I explained myself well. What say you?

Hi Dragonfighter,

If you look at the Greek language you will find that the word washed is in the middle voice. The middle voice in the Greek language indicates that the action is being done on the individual by themselves. The washing is water baptism. Just as Peter said be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, If as you claim the washing is not with water, what is being washed away?

Thayer’s Greek Definitions.

G628 ἀπολούω apolouō Thayer Definition: 1) to wash off or away

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G628 ἀπολούω apolouō ap-ol-oo'-o From G575 and G3068; to wash fully, that is, (figuratively) have remitted (reflexively):—wash (away).

drew
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:14 PM
Greetings Eric,

How did Abraham believe God? Isn't Abraham, like every man, born in Adam, therefore fallen, without spiritual life, in bondage to Satan, sin and death? Could Abraham have faith without having received the gift of faith from the Lord?

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
I suggest that these texts are about the covenant faithfulness of Jesus Christ, not a "faith in Christ" that is imputed to the believer. Paul is talking about Jesus's faithfulness to his task of fulfilling the covenant.

This is not a faith that we "get" - Paul is describing the faithfulness of Jesus in fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant.

There is a technical issue about genetives here. The greek expression "faith of Christ" can mean either of the following two things:

1. Our faith in Jesus;
2. Jesus' faithfulness in doing something he promised to do.

I suggest that the second reading is the more appropriate one. I am not prepared to argue for it, though.

However, my point is that one cannot simply assume that Paul is talking about "our faith in Christ" in these texts. Therefore, one cannot bring these texts forward in service of any argument that faith is in any sense imputed to us.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:17 PM
Hi Dragonfighter,

If you look at the Greek language you will find that the word washed is in the middle voice. The middle voice in the Greek language indicates that the action is being done on the individual by themselves. The washing is water baptism. Just as Peter said be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, If as you claim the washing is not with water, what is being washed away?

Thayer’s Greek Definitions.

G628 ἀπολούω apolouō Thayer Definition: 1) to wash off or away

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G628 ἀπολούω apolouō ap-ol-oo'-o From G575 and G3068; to wash fully, that is, (figuratively) have remitted (reflexively):—wash (away).
Butch5,
Thanks for your response
Though I took N.T. Greek for 3 years I am NOT a greek Scholar, (and its been 25 yrs too:)) But to try to answer your question...
Water washes dirt, the spirit washes sins. I know that is an over simplification but it seems reasonable to me.

I differentiate between the earlier versions of baptism and the later ones because I believe there was a change with Paul from a symbolic ministry to the Jews to a NONsymbolic message to the gentiles. Side note: I am not sure if we have not still got two ministries going in heaven...the gentile one we all mostly know about which largly ignores signs and symbols, and a Jewish remnant ministry that allows for some signs and symbols due to the peculiar people status of Jews. As I said that is a side note, if anyone wouyld like to comment on that please note i was generalizing and may be way off base there.

Back to the topic. In Johns baptism they didnt middle voice themselves so to speak as John was doing the action to them. They recieved it from him.

I may be out of line with my reasoning and I recognize an educated man when he writes. Please upgrade my aging knowledge with your point of view and etc..
Looking forward to a good discussion....
df1

drew
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:19 PM
I think it important also to remember that Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was counted (reckoned, imputed, concluded) unto him for righteousness.
There is a huge ambiguity here depending on whether one goes with "reckoned" or "imputed". You seem to simply an "imputation reading". You need to actually justify such a decision.

As you are no doubt aware, the following are entirely different in their meaning:

1. "Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was reckoned unto him for righteousness"

2. "Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was imputed unto him for righteousness

Only reading 2 supports the notion that faith is actually imputed to Abraham. Can you justify why you went with the "imputed" reading and not the "reckoned" reading?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:24 PM
There is a huge ambiguity here depending on whether one goes with "reckoned" or "imputed". You seem to simply an "imputation reading". You need to actually justify such a decision.

As you are no doubt aware, the following are entirely different in their meaning:

1. "Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was reckoned unto him for righteousness"

2. "Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was imputed unto him for righteousness

Only reading 2 supports the notion that faith is actually imputed to Abraham. Can you justify why you went with the "imputed" reading and not the "reckoned" reading?
Hey there Drew,
You are obviuously making this fine edged point for a reason...(you are not in the habit of silly posts) I read it but can't:dunno: think of the reason myself...care to share a bit more why this is important. I'd like to follow the line of reasoning when Roger posts back,
Thanks much:thumbsup:
DF1

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:26 PM
Hi DF1,

We find in the OT that God is very serious about His covenantal sign of circumcision. Left uncircumcised [unbaptized] means His covenant has been broken, and the uncircumcised [unbaptized] persons would be cut off from among His people. That means that the blessings God bestows upon His covenant people, are no longer available to those left uncircumcised [unbaptized]. They are exactly like the rest of the world, without God and without hope, and they will receive none of the external blessings God bestows on His covenant people, and in addition they have lost all hope of ever receiving the eternal blessing of everlasting life through Christ.

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Paul asks the same question. What advantage has the Jew, or what profit is circumcision? He tells us that the Jews boast of their knowledge of God, being instructed out of the law. They were to be guides for the blind, and instructors and teachers of the truth in the law. Paul says there was much advantage to being a Jew, belonging to Israel, because they alone had received of God the things pertaining to adoption, glory, the law, and the promises. Christ came from Israel, born a Jew. The Jews alone had the prophets, the Temple, the priests, taught what is required of God in true worship. They alone received the blessings from God through the knowledge of God. Therefore being among the covenant people of God was the way to know what God requires of His people and how we are to love God with all our hearts, minds and strength.

Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Ro 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Ro 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Ro 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Ro 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Ro 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

But now comes John introducing all men to a new way to know God, through Christ. The law and the prophets were until John, but Christ has come to fulfill all the requirements of the law. John tells us the kingdom of God that has been preached in now near unto all who call on the name of the Lord. The new message John brought was "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." The kingdom is hear, it has finally arrived, now repent, turn away from your sins and believe on Christ.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John introduces us to a new covenant sign; baptism, which signifies cleansing or washing away the sins of the flesh. Christ too received the sign even though He Himself was without sin. But this shows the importance of following the example of Christ in obedience to receive the new covenant sign. Christ left us with a command:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why, since it is only a sign of covenantal inclusion outwardly, just like circumcision was in the OT? The main reason we obey is because it is a command of our Lord. What advantage do we have being identified with the covenant body of Christ in the world? What special blessings does the church alone receive from God? Who was given the Word of God and commissioned to preach the gospel of salvation unto all nations? What advantage is there in being under the hearing of His Word? When these questions are answered I think we will agree that there is great advantage to being among the covenantal people of God.

For this reason we should not deny the sign [water baptism] to anyone who professes to believe, or to our covenant children. Just as God did not deny the covenant sign to every male in the OT, neither should we deny the covenant sign to every child born into a covenant home. We'll administer the sign, and teach and train our children the ways of God, and let God determine whether they will one day profess a saving love for the Lord, or they will one day show themselves to be reprobates like Ishmael, and Esau (who received the covenant sign).

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,

I have copied this section of your post below. I have a question, you say the uncircumcised [unbaptized] person is cut off from God's people. If this is the case (which I agree it is), how is baptism just a symbol? How is someone cut off from God's people by lack of a symbol?



Roger---We find in the OT that God is very serious about His covenantal sign of circumcision. Left uncircumcised [unbaptized] means His covenant has been broken, and the uncircumcised [unbaptized] persons would be cut off from among His people. That means that the blessings God bestows upon His covenant people, are no longer available to those left uncircumcised [unbaptized]. They are exactly like the rest of the world, without God and without hope, and they will receive none of the external blessings God bestows on His covenant people, and in addition they have lost all hope of ever receiving the eternal blessing of everlasting life through Christ.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:35 PM
Hi Fellows:


bring these texts forward in service of any argument that faith is in any sense imputed to us.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17

"...according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:3

Go well


Cya my friend

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:38 PM
Butch5,
Thanks for your response
Though I took N.T. Greek for 3 years I am NOT a greek Scholar, (and its been 25 yrs too:)) But to try to answer your question...
Water washes dirt, the spirit washes sins. I know that is an over simplification but it seems reasonable to me.

I differentiate between the earlier versions of baptism and the later ones because I believe there was a change with Paul from a symbolic ministry to the Jews to a NONsymbolic message to the gentiles. Side note: I am not sure if we have not still got two ministries going in heaven...the gentile one we all mostly know about which largly ignores signs and symbols, and a Jewish remnant ministry that allows for some signs and symbols due to the peculiar people status of Jews. As I said that is a side note, if anyone wouyld like to comment on that please note i was generalizing and may be way off base there.

Back to the topic. In Johns baptism they didnt middle voice themselves so to speak as John was doing the action to them. They recieved it from him.

I may be out of line with my reasoning and I recognize an educated man when he writes. Please upgrade my aging knowledge with your point of view and etc..
Looking forward to a good discussion....
df1

Hi Dragonfighter,

Speaking of the middle voice I did not mean to imply that they baptized themselves, it does appear that I said it that way. What I meant to convey is that they submitted to baptism. It was of their own accord. If this verse, 1 Corinthians 6:11 was referring to them being washed by the Lord or the Spirit, it would be in the passive voice. In the verse, sanctified and justified are in the passive voice, indicating that the action was done to them by another. Washing however in is the middle voice meaning that the action is being done to them and by them. They are not physically baptizing themselves, however they are submitting to the baptism.

I hope that clears things up a little.

You said the Spirit washes sins, while I agree with this when and how does this occur? Peter said repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Surely He wasn't telling them to be baptized in the Spirit, for they could not do that . And He said you will receive the Holy Spirit, from this we can deduce that the Spirit comes to us after we are washed.

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:39 PM
Can someone show me Scripture that shows water baptism is a symbol?

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:41 PM
I have copied this section of your post below. I have a question, you say the uncircumcised [unbaptized] person is cut off from God's people. If this is the case (which I agree it is), how is baptism just a symbol? How is someone cut off from God's people by lack of a symbol?

Hey Butch, I never followed this line of reasoning (circumcision) in association with baptism. For one reason, only males were circumcised. The washing rituals were done by all the people.

As for symbols, symbols are only symbols if seen by all. I don't consider baptism to be a symbol. And I surely don't see circumcision as a symbol.

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:53 PM
Hey Butch, I never followed this line of reasoning (circumcision) in association with baptism. For one reason, only males were circumcised. The washing rituals were done by all the people.

As for symbols, symbols are only symbols if seen by all. I don't consider baptism to be a symbol. And I surely don't see circumcision as a symbol.

Hi Teke,

Neither do I, a symbol is a visible sign of an invisible reality. I have studied baptism extensively, I have spoke with those fluent in Greek, I have studied the early church, I have studied the Scriptures. The early church for at least 200 years over the entire known world at the time believed that baptism is necessary for salvation. As a matter of fact several early writers call it the baptism of salvation. I have posted some of the quotes from the early church here regarding baptism. They were in unison on this issue.

I don't really equate circumcision with baptism, my point was that both would keep you out of the covenant.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:59 PM
Sorry my friend, water is not a reference to the mothers water. Jesus said unless one is born again, born of water and the Spirit. The Greek language doesn't allow for this to be the mother's water. If it is as you say, why would Jesus tell Nicodemus He had to be born physically? Who is going to come for salvation who hasn't been born physically? Paul said that God saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. So the washing of regeneration is "NOT" a work, as Paul says, it also in "NOT" Spirit baptism becasue that is also mentioned in this verse. The washing of regeneration is water baptism. It is the through water baptism that we receive the Spirit baptism. Now let me say, it is "NOT" the water that does it, it is God that saves in the water. This is also the understanding of the early church.The early church fathers did not agree on everything by any means. Some of them also believed in things that were false. That you can show some believed a certain way doesn't prove anything. Did you know that Origen, for example, believed that the Holy Spirit was created? Should we believe everything he taught?

Jesus explains exactly what he was saying in John 3:5 in the very next verse:

John 3
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Being born of water is the same as being born of the flesh. Jesus is making the point here that being born of the flesh is not enough to enter into the kingdom of God. If that was the case, everyone would enter into the kingdom of God. In order for one to enter the kingdom of God they must be born of the Spirit. Notice in verse 6 that He does not say "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit". He only says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". He is not saying anything about water baptism at all in that passage.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:00 PM
Hi Dragonfighter,

Speaking of the middle voice I did not mean to imply that they baptized themselves, it does appear that I said it that way. What I meant to convey is that they submitted to baptism. It was of their own accord. If this verse, 1 Corinthians 6:11 was referring to them being washed by the Lord or the Spirit, it would be in the passive voice. In the verse, sanctified and justified are in the passive voice, indicating that the action was done to them by another. Washing however in is the middle voice meaning that the action is being done to them and by them. They are not physically baptizing themselves, however they are submitting to the baptism.

I hope that clears things up a little.

You said the Spirit washes sins, while I agree with this when and how does this occur? Peter said repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Surely He wasn't telling them to be baptized in the Spirit, for they could not do that . And He said you will receive the Holy Spirit, from this we can deduce that the Spirit comes to us after we are washed.

I'll try to respond to both points Roger,
I am enjoying this discussion immensely.
I feel like Indiana Jones walking through a familiar temple. There are cobwebs everywhere its great to be there but is little scary! My mind is the temple of Greek studies., Everything you said made sense...the third time I read it!:crazy:. LoL
Anyway, I must study more on this as its really enjoyable..
Second point: quoting you..He said you will receive the Holy Spirit, from this we can deduce that the Spirit comes to us after we are washed.

Perhaps it meant (as this was dispensationally non-pauline I think). REPENT, if you repent, metanoiw, turn, get with the program, then you will be baptized by the H.S.

But I do you all a diservice as I wrote this in a hurry before the in laws arrived and did not consult the scriptures:o-forgive me, at least I admitted it:blush:

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:05 PM
Hi Teke,

Neither do I, a symbol is a visible sign of an invisible reality. I have studied baptism extensively, I have spoke with those fluent in Greek, I have studied the early church, I have studied the Scriptures. The early church for at least 200 years over the entire known world at the time believed that baptism is necessary for salvation. As a matter of fact several early writers call it the baptism of salvation. I have posted some of the quotes from the early church here regarding baptism. They were in unison on this issue.They were not in unison on that issue. They were not in unison on hardly any issues just as is still the case in the church today. If water baptism is the baptism of salvation then what is the baptism of the Spirit? How do you explain the idea of water baptism being the baptism of salvation in light of this verse:

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It is the baptism of the Spirit that places into the body of Christ, not water baptism.

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:06 PM
The following are questions primarily geared towards the "tradition" of infant baptism. Some of them might also apply to the practices applied in some churches of baptizing the dead or near dead as well, but I'm primarily concerned with infant baptism. They should be simple and straight forward questions to answer, so I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and those thoughts hopefully will come from God's word.

1. If it is an act of faithfulness and obedience, to whom is being faithful in obedience when Baptism is administered? It depends on who is being baptized. If it is one professing faith, they are faithfully obeying the Lord's command. If it is the baptism of an infant or child, it is the faithuflness and obedience of believing parents obeying the Lord's command.
2. In the OT and NT Prior to Christ's Ministry, what did Baptism, and ceremonial washing signify and why was it necessary? I believe this cleansing, or purifying was done to make one ceremonially clean.
3. If it is meant as a sign, to whom is it intended, is it God, God's People/Children, or the Unsaved/Unchurched? The sign of baptism is administered to all who profess faith and also to whole households of believers.
4. What did Samuel anoint the kings with? What did prophets before him anoint the Judges with? What did that anointing symbolize? Oil. I believe this was done to consecrate them unto the Lord.
5. If it is a vow of obedience and faithfulness who is taking the vow and to whom will it be held accountable?
6. (Other than what was mentioned in 4) What was anointing oil used for in reference to individuals (there appear to be at least 2 if not 3 things) (not temple/tabernacle preparation?), what did it symbolize? I believe anointing one with oil is a means of setting them apart, or concecrating them unto service for the Lord.
7. When Jesus said not to forbid the children did he ask the disciples to compel the children to come (Yes or No)? Christ took it upon Himself to bless the children. Mr 10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. Also, are there any references of Jesus or the Disciples baptizing infants? That depends on whether or not one believes every whole household baptized had no infants. I would argue that some of those household examples of baptism certainly included at least some infants, but it really is not relevant to prove or disprove this point, for whole households included every member of the family and extended family living in these households. All were baptized upon the profession of one.
8. If a parent is having their child baptized, is that obedience translated to the child which cannot exercise its own will (Yes or No)? The parent is faithfully submitting to the command, and clinging to the promise that the promise is unto believers and their children. They cannot believe unless they "hear", and they cannot "hear" unless the parent is faithful.
9. For Circumcision who explicitly required that the entire household's male population be circumcised? The Lord.
10. John's Baptism was always accompanied by repentance. If as with all Washings in the OT that sin was repented/confessed, is this not the same with Baptism in Christ? How then is this accomplished via this other baptism? Obedience to the law was never a means of salvation, but rather to show our sins, and point us to the Savior, Christ. The same is true of water baptism, it points us to the true washing of regeneration through the Spirit. Whole households are baptized through faith and repentance of only one. In the OT father's and husbands offered sacrafices for the whole family. To enter the kingdom of God one must be born again of the Spirit. The re-birth or Spiritual cleansing can only be done of the Lord by grace through faith.
11. In the Acts, which comes first hearing of the word, repentance and belief, or baptism? Not exactly certain what you want here.
12. In the Acts or Epistles, are there any references to anyone being baptized as an infant (Yes or No)? I would say yes and no. Again it depends of what you believe whole households means.

(Also as an aside, Samuel and Eli, assuming it wasn't their tent, it would have to have been the Tabernacle... not the Temple. the temple wasn't built till after David was king.)

I suspect some of these questions will be helpful, before any further discussion is made.

Hope I have been helpful.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:14 PM
Greetings Butch,

I would agree with you that this is not speaking of physical birth. I believe the water is the washing of regeneration we receive through the renewing of the Holy Spirit, a washing/cleansing/purifying through the power of the Word. There are many references to this purifying water of salvation throughout Scripture. We are born again of the Holy Spirit and washing through the purifying water from Christ.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ps 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Many Blessings,
RWIn those passages, the water represents the Spirit. Take John 7:38, for instance. Let's look at the context.

John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

In that passage, the living water and the Spirit are one and the same. In John 3:5, the water is differentiated from the Spirit. And that is because being born of water represented being born of the flesh while being born of the Spirit represented just that, being born of the Spirit.

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:34 PM
There is a huge ambiguity here depending on whether one goes with "reckoned" or "imputed". You seem to simply an "imputation reading". You need to actually justify such a decision.

As you are no doubt aware, the following are entirely different in their meaning:

1. "Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was reckoned unto him for righteousness"

2. "Abraham believed God (had faith) and it (faith) was imputed unto him for righteousness

Only reading 2 supports the notion that faith is actually imputed to Abraham. Can you justify why you went with the "imputed" reading and not the "reckoned" reading?

Greetings Drew,

I know I have argued in the past for imputation, but I have come to realize that it really is not relevant. Use which ever definition you like, for what it means is "to take inventory". The Scriptures presented show us that God looks at Abraham as having both faith and righteousness, and both of these did not originate from within, but are a gift of God's grace bestowed upon Him and all believers. Not of our work of faith, not of our work of righteousness, but of grace through faith that is not our own but the gift of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:02 PM
Hi Teke,

Neither do I, a symbol is a visible sign of an invisible reality. I have studied baptism extensively, I have spoke with those fluent in Greek, I have studied the early church, I have studied the Scriptures. The early church for at least 200 years over the entire known world at the time believed that baptism is necessary for salvation. As a matter of fact several early writers call it the baptism of salvation. I have posted some of the quotes from the early church here regarding baptism. They were in unison on this issue.

I don't really equate circumcision with baptism, my point was that both would keep you out of the covenant.

Indeed, because their reference was all the OT passages which state, "Lord is my salvation", "salvation of the Lord", "horn of salvation" etc. (to numerous to post them all here) Clearly they saw that salvation is "of" the Lord, and without being "in" that Body, there was no salvation outside of Him/His Body. I would think we would all agree on this.

As I posted already, IMHO baptism is a literal placement in His Body. I firmly believe this to be a reality. Not just a spiritual concept. However hard it is for some to understand, that is what baptism is all about. We're in or out. :)

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:18 PM
The early church fathers did not agree on everything by any means. Some of them also believed in things that were false. That you can show some believed a certain way doesn't prove anything. Did you know that Origen, for example, believed that the Holy Spirit was created? Should we believe everything he taught?

Jesus explains exactly what he was saying in John 3:5 in the very next verse:

John 3
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Being born of water is the same as being born of the flesh. Jesus is making the point here that being born of the flesh is not enough to enter into the kingdom of God. If that was the case, everyone would enter into the kingdom of God. In order for one to enter the kingdom of God they must be born of the Spirit. Notice in verse 6 that He does not say "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit". He only says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". He is not saying anything about water baptism at all in that passage.


Why do people continue to argue from silence? It means this because it doesn't say this. Have you followed this discussion? Being born of water is not the same as being born of the flesh. Jesus said you must be born again you must be born of water and the Spirit. Being born again is being born of water and the Spirit. Why would Jesus tell anyone they had to be born to enter the kingdom? First of all, how could anyone come to ask Jesus, if they had not been born? Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, because Nicodemus thought being born again meant to be physically born again. He said how can a man enter his mother's womb when He is old? Jesus basically says, I am not talking about being born in the flesh, that which is born of the flesh is flesh. Nicodemus, you must born of water and the Spirit. I have given plenty of evidence from the Scriptures regarding this. Evidence from Peter, Paul, and Jesus.

Regarding the early church, What about Origen? Did I say they were inspired? No. Did I say the were perfect? No. However, Is you pastor perfect? Is He inspired? If he makes a mistake do you get up an leave the church and say He is a heretic. I doubt it. You probably go on listening and learning from him. So why are you in such a hurry to disregard all of these men because one may say something that might be incorrect.

On all of the major doctrine in the early church, all of the major writers were in agreement. That does not mean they agreed on every single aspect of every single point.

Before you reject the early church, let me ask you a question? Do you believe the gospel of Matthew is inspired? Is it the inspired word of God? What about the gospel of Mark?

Look at them, where have they indicated that they wrote the books? Does Matthew say He wrote the book? What about Mark? Did He sign his book? No, they did not indicated that they wrote them. How then do we know who wrote them? We know from the early church. So, can we trust them to tell us who wrote the books, that we consider inspired, and yet think that they did not know what they were talking about?

Several of these men were companions of the apostles themselves. Men like, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, possibly Barnabas. Are we going to say that these men, who were personally discipled by the apostles didn't know what they were talking about?

Could you please provide a reference for your statement regarding Origen?

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:23 PM
I'll try to respond to both points Roger,
I am enjoying this discussion immensely.
I feel like Indiana Jones walking through a familiar temple. There are cobwebs everywhere its great to be there but is little scary! My mind is the temple of Greek studies., Everything you said made sense...the third time I read it!:crazy:. LoL
Anyway, I must study more on this as its really enjoyable..
Second point: quoting you..He said you will receive the Holy Spirit, from this we can deduce that the Spirit comes to us after we are washed.

Perhaps it meant (as this was dispensationally non-pauline I think). REPENT, if you repent, metanoiw, turn, get with the program, then you will be baptized by the H.S.

But I do you all a diservice as I wrote this in a hurry before the in laws arrived and did not consult the scriptures:o-forgive me, at least I admitted it:blush:

Hi Dragonfighter,

Peter says repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Baptism for the remission of sins is water baptism.

Also a side question, How does one get baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:23 PM
They were not in unison on that issue. They were not in unison on hardly any issues just as is still the case in the church today. If water baptism is the baptism of salvation then what is the baptism of the Spirit? How do you explain the idea of water baptism being the baptism of salvation in light of this verse:

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It is the baptism of the Spirit that places into the body of Christ, not water baptism.

How do you separate Spirit from water to equate they are separate things.
Can you see the Spirit separate from the water? All can see water, but to say that the Spirit is not present is to say something that all can't see. So I don't see how you can come to such a conclusion.

I have heard an ancient teaching that spoke of water being blessed with the Spirit by Jesus' baptism. Whether that means anything depends on how one sees things. IOW since Jesus is God, meaning Father, Son and Holy Spirit, these indivisible entered water (as in the Son's baptism), how would we know that the Spirit isn't in the water. The words literally say the Son entered the water for His baptism.

So if, "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body", what negates the Spirit using the means of water.

Seems we agree baptism places one into the Body. It's not so far fetched to believe that the Spirit uses water to do so, as the Spirit does what it wills.

Here are a couple verses, how would you differentiate the water from the Spirit in them.

Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:30 PM
Hi Roger,

I have copied this section of your post below. I have a question, you say the uncircumcised person is cut off from God's people. If this is the case (which I agree it is), how is baptism just a symbol? How is someone cut off from God's people by lack of a symbol?

Greetings Butch,

Ge 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be [U]a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

What are the sacraments instituted by Christ in the new covenant? Baptism and the holy supper. These two sacraments are visible signs appointed by Christ, that He gives us [His church in time] to remind us of the blessings we have in the One sacrifice of Christ accomplished on the cross. There is a difference between His New Covenant and His covenant signs/symbols/tokens that point us to or give us knowledge of His everlasting Covenant. When we do not come under the covenant sign we are breaking His covenant, just as they did in the OT when they were not circumcised. That means the same for the church today as it did for the OT nation. We are denied the blessings and life that God bestows upon His covenant people. And we removed from the preaching and teaching through the Word of life. In other words we are no different than the world around us.

Salvation is by grace through faith. But Christ tells us to teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If this water baptism is the cleansing we receive through the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit why would Christ tell men to administer the sign? Is this being washed by His blood and Spirit, or does this symbolize being washed by His blood and Spirit?

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The baptism or washing/cleansing that truly saves is the washing of regeneration by the Spirit as He washes away our sins. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ, which the water of baptism symbolizes. The external baptism with water does not wash away our sins, for only Christ and the Holy Spirit can cleanse us from sin. Just as the filth of the flesh is outwardly cleansed away by water, so our sins are removed by the blood and Spirit of Christ Jesus. By His divine pledge and sign He assures us that we are Spiritually cleansed from our sins when we are born again.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:39 PM
Hi Teke,

Neither do I, a symbol is a visible sign of an invisible reality. I have studied baptism extensively, I have spoke with those fluent in Greek, I have studied the early church, I have studied the Scriptures. The early church for at least 200 years over the entire known world at the time believed that baptism is necessary for salvation. As a matter of fact several early writers call it the baptism of salvation. I have posted some of the quotes from the early church here regarding baptism. They were in unison on this issue.

Hi Butch,

According to Scripture circumcision was a visible sign (token), but even reprobates like Ishmael and Esau received the sign. So clearly this visible sign cannot signify an invisible reality.



I don't really equate circumcision with baptism, my point was that both would keep you out of the covenant.

You seem to be saying you believe that being in covenant with God means to be saved, but that clearly was not the case in the OT. Since we are saved by the blood of Christ and washing of regeneration by the Spirit, what is water baptism if it is not a sign like circumcision? I really don't think you can continue to argue that water baptism is a means of salvation, regardless of what the early church taught.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:44 PM
In those passages, the water represents the Spirit. Take John 7:38, for instance. Let's look at the context.

John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

In that passage, the living water and the Spirit are one and the same. In John 3:5, the water is differentiated from the Spirit. And that is because being born of water represented being born of the flesh while being born of the Spirit represented just that, being born of the Spirit.

Hi Eric,

I've heard that argument, and in fact used to believe it also. But it does not make sense to me that Christ would be speaking to a living, breathing Nicodemus, and telling him that he must be physically born in order to be Spiritually born.

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:49 PM
They were not in unison on that issue. They were not in unison on hardly any issues just as is still the case in the church today. If water baptism is the baptism of salvation then what is the baptism of the Spirit? How do you explain the idea of water baptism being the baptism of salvation in light of this verse:


1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It is the baptism of the Spirit that places into the body of Christ, not water baptism.

The Bible speaks of water baptism and Spirit baptism, yet Paul says there is one baptism. How do you reconcile this? If we look at Jesus' baptism we see that Jesus was baptized and upon coming out of the water the Spirit descended upon him. We have Jesus words, except a man be born of water and the Spirit He cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Peter said, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.

Paul said, He[God]saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.



Romans 6:4-5 ( KJV ) 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Colossians 2:11-12 ( KJV ) 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

These Scriptures make it clear that Spirit Baptism comes through water baptism, so the one baptism is water baptism, through which God does the Spirit baptism.

As for the early church, let me clarify. By the early Church I mean the Ante-Nicene Church. The Ante-Nicene writers. They are in agreement. There are more but this should be sufficient.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? “And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever.” (Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. “And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,”
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

And I said to him, “I should like to continue my questions.” “Speak on,” said he. And I said, “I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins.” He said to me, “That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of his sins ought not to sin any more, but to live in purity

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160

Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160
But there is no other [way] than this,—to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.
In refuting the Gnostics

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180

“And dipped himself,” says [the Scripture], “seven times in Jordan.” (2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (John 3:5)
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria 195

Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ3III-2-3 Jesus Christ, are born in water,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life” (John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228

Matthew alone adds the words “to repentance,” teaching that the benefit of baptism is connected with the intention of the baptized person; to him who repents it is salutary, but to him who comes to it without repentance it will turn to greater condemnation.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228
“by the laver of regeneration,” (Titus 3:5) through which they were born “as new-born babes,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Pamohilius 309

Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:57 PM
In those passages, the water represents the Spirit. Take John 7:38, for instance. Let's look at the context.

John 7
37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

In that passage, the living water and the Spirit are one and the same. In John 3:5, the water is differentiated from the Spirit. And that is because being born of water represented being born of the flesh while being born of the Spirit represented just that, being born of the Spirit.

Can you give some evidence to support your claim that the water refers to the flesh.

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:00 PM
Indeed, because their reference was all the OT passages which state, "Lord is my salvation", "salvation of the Lord", "horn of salvation" etc. (to numerous to post them all here) Clearly they saw that salvation is "of" the Lord, and without being "in" that Body, there was no salvation outside of Him/His Body. I would think we would all agree on this.

As I posted already, IMHO baptism is a literal placement in His Body. I firmly believe this to be a reality. Not just a spiritual concept. However hard it is for some to understand, that is what baptism is all about. We're in or out. :)

Pretty much, in or out.

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:05 PM
Hope I have been helpful.
The following are questions primarily geared towards the "tradition" of infant baptism. Some of them might also apply to the practices applied in some churches of baptizing the dead or near dead as well, but I'm primarily concerned with infant baptism. They should be simple and straight forward questions to answer, so I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and those thoughts hopefully will come from God's word.

1. If it is an act of faithfulness and obedience, to whom is being faithful in obedience when Baptism is administered? It depends on who is being baptized. If it is one professing faith, they are faithfully obeying the Lord's command. If it is the baptism of an infant or child, it is the faithuflness and obedience of believing parents obeying the Lord's command.
2. In the OT and NT Prior to Christ's Ministry, what did Baptism, and ceremonial washing signify and why was it necessary? I believe this cleansing, or purifying was done to make one ceremonially clean.
3. If it is meant as a sign, to whom is it intended, is it God, God's People/Children, or the Unsaved/Unchurched? The sign of baptism is administered to all who profess faith and also to whole households of believers.
4. What did Samuel anoint the kings with? What did prophets before him anoint the Judges with? What did that anointing symbolize? Oil. I believe this was done to consecrate them unto the Lord.
5. If it is a vow of obedience and faithfulness who is taking the vow and to whom will it be held accountable?
6. (Other than what was mentioned in 4) What was anointing oil used for in reference to individuals (there appear to be at least 2 if not 3 things) (not temple/tabernacle preparation?), what did it symbolize? I believe anointing one with oil is a means of setting them apart, or concecrating them unto service for the Lord.
7. When Jesus said not to forbid the children did he ask the disciples to compel the children to come (Yes or No)? Christ took it upon Himself to bless the children. Mr 10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. Also, are there any references of Jesus or the Disciples baptizing infants? That depends on whether or not one believes every whole household baptized had no infants. I would argue that some of those household examples of baptism certainly included at least some infants, but it really is not relevant to prove or disprove this point, for whole households included every member of the family and extended family living in these households. All were baptized upon the profession of one.
8. If a parent is having their child baptized, is that obedience translated to the child which cannot exercise its own will (Yes or No)? The parent is faithfully submitting to the command, and clinging to the promise that the promise is unto believers and their children. They cannot believe unless they "hear", and they cannot "hear" unless the parent is faithful.
9. For Circumcision who explicitly required that the entire household's male population be circumcised? The Lord.
10. John's Baptism was always accompanied by repentance. If as with all Washings in the OT that sin was repented/confessed, is this not the same with Baptism in Christ? How then is this accomplished via this other baptism? Obedience to the law was never a means of salvation, but rather to show our sins, and point us to the Savior, Christ. The same is true of water baptism, it points us to the true washing of regeneration through the Spirit. Whole households are baptized through faith and repentance of only one. In the OT father's and husbands offered sacrafices for the whole family. To enter the kingdom of God one must be born again of the Spirit. The re-birth or Spiritual cleansing can only be done of the Lord by grace through faith.
11. In the Acts, which comes first hearing of the word, repentance and belief, or baptism? Not exactly certain what you want here.
12. In the Acts or Epistles, are there any references to anyone being baptized as an infant (Yes or No)? I would say yes and no. Again it depends of what you believe whole households means.

(Also as an aside, Samuel and Eli, assuming it wasn't their tent, it would have to have been the Tabernacle... not the Temple. the temple wasn't built till after David was king.)

I suspect some of these questions will be helpful, before any further discussion is made.The following are questions primarily geared towards the "tradition" of infant baptism. Some of them might also apply to the practices applied in some churches of baptizing the dead or near dead as well, but I'm primarily concerned with infant baptism. They should be simple and straight forward questions to answer, so I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and those thoughts hopefully will come from God's word.

1. If it is an act of faithfulness and obedience, to whom is being faithful in obedience when Baptism is administered? It depends on who is being baptized. If it is one professing faith, they are faithfully obeying the Lord's command. If it is the baptism of an infant or child, it is the faithuflness and obedience of believing parents obeying the Lord's command.
2. In the OT and NT Prior to Christ's Ministry, what did Baptism, and ceremonial washing signify and why was it necessary? I believe this cleansing, or purifying was done to make one ceremonially clean.
3. If it is meant as a sign, to whom is it intended, is it God, God's People/Children, or the Unsaved/Unchurched? The sign of baptism is administered to all who profess faith and also to whole households of believers.
4. What did Samuel anoint the kings with? What did prophets before him anoint the Judges with? What did that anointing symbolize? Oil. I believe this was done to consecrate them unto the Lord.
5. If it is a vow of obedience and faithfulness who is taking the vow and to whom will it be held accountable?
6. (Other than what was mentioned in 4) What was anointing oil used for in reference to individuals (there appear to be at least 2 if not 3 things) (not temple/tabernacle preparation?), what did it symbolize? I believe anointing one with oil is a means of setting them apart, or concecrating them unto service for the Lord.
7. When Jesus said not to forbid the children did he ask the disciples to compel the children to come (Yes or No)? Christ took it upon Himself to bless the children. Mr 10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. Also, are there any references of Jesus or the Disciples baptizing infants? That depends on whether or not one believes every whole household baptized had no infants. I would argue that some of those household examples of baptism certainly included at least some infants, but it really is not relevant to prove or disprove this point, for whole households included every member of the family and extended family living in these households. All were baptized upon the profession of one.
8. If a parent is having their child baptized, is that obedience translated to the child which cannot exercise its own will (Yes or No)? The parent is faithfully submitting to the command, and clinging to the promise that the promise is unto believers and their children. They cannot believe unless they "hear", and they cannot "hear" unless the parent is faithful.
9. For Circumcision who explicitly required that the entire household's male population be circumcised? The Lord.
10. John's Baptism was always accompanied by repentance. If as with all Washings in the OT that sin was repented/confessed, is this not the same with Baptism in Christ? How then is this accomplished via this other baptism? Obedience to the law was never a means of salvation, but rather to show our sins, and point us to the Savior, Christ. The same is true of water baptism, it points us to the true washing of regeneration through the Spirit. Whole households are baptized through faith and repentance of only one. In the OT father's and husbands offered sacrafices for the whole family. To enter the kingdom of God one must be born again of the Spirit. The re-birth or Spiritual cleansing can only be done of the Lord by grace through faith.
11. In the Acts, which comes first hearing of the word, repentance and belief, or baptism? Not exactly certain what you want here.
12. In the Acts or Epistles, are there any references to anyone being baptized as an infant (Yes or No)? I would say yes and no. Again it depends of what you believe whole households means.

(Also as an aside, Samuel and Eli, assuming it wasn't their tent, it would have to have been the Tabernacle... not the Temple. the temple wasn't built till after David was king.)

I suspect some of these questions will be helpful, before any further discussion is made.
Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW,

Thanks for answering my questions. Let me ask a few followup questions just to make sure I understand your position.

I asked:

1. If it is an act of faithfulness and obedience, to whom is being faithful in obedience when Baptism is administered?
And you replied the following (cause I'm mainly asking about Infant Baptism)

If it is the baptism of an infant or child, it is the faithuflness and obedience of believing parents obeying the Lord's command.

That'sabout what I expected you'd say So let me ask you another.

1a) When Jesus Gave the Great Commission, do you believe he was commanding the Disciples to go into all the world to make "students"/"disciples" of all nations? Or do you believe that the intent was to evangelize and bring many unto salvation through Christ which consequently would then make them a disciple?

That may seem like an odd question, but if you believe the first, that the intent was to get many to hear the word, then that would seem to explain the Covenantal Theological view of why you feel Baptism should perhaps not come after a profession of faith. I'm inclined against that belief, but it certainly would perhaps explain your position to me better.


Then later I asked:
3. If it is meant as a sign, to whom is it intended, is it God, God's People/Children, or the Unsaved/Unchurched? The sign of baptism is administered to all who profess faith and also to whole households of believers.

3a) As in1a, do you feel that if anyone in the household professes faith, that all in the household should be baptized, whether or not they also accept the same and profess faith? Secondly, if the answer is yes, then You believe that even young children, who do not yet understand the Gospel, (nor could they at their young age), that they should be baptized anyways?


then I asked

6. (Other than what was mentioned in 4) What was anointing oil used for in reference to individuals (there appear to be at least 2 if not 3 things) (not temple/tabernacle preparation?), what did it symbolize? I believe anointing one with oil is a means of setting them apart, or concecrating them unto service for the Lord.

6a) If anointing with oil sets those who were anointed apart (Kings, Prophets, Judges, etc.) do you believe that water baptism is in essence like that oil that is used and thus sets those apart? (I realize this question may not make sense, but I'm trying to get an understanding for why you feel that water baptism should set folks apart.)


Then I asked:

7. When Jesus said not to forbid the children did he ask the disciples to compel the children to come (Yes or No)? Christ took it upon Himself to bless the children. Mr 10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. Also, are there any references of Jesus or the Disciples baptizing infants? That depends on whether or not one believes every whole household baptized had no infants. I would argue that some of those household examples of baptism certainly included at least some infants, but it really is not relevant to prove or disprove this point, for whole households included every member of the family and extended family living in these households. All were baptized upon the profession of one.

7a) Do you believe those Children came to Jesus of their own will?

7b) So by the profession of one, the entire household would be baptized? Where is that doctrine specified, can you give me some verses.


Then:

8. If a parent is having their child baptized, is that obedience translated to the child which cannot exercise its own will (Yes or No)? The parent is faithfully submitting to the command, and clinging to the promise that the promise is unto believers and their children. They cannot believe unless they "hear", and they cannot "hear" unless the parent is faithful.

So if the parent has the Child Baptized, you are saying its so they can hear the word.

8a) Does Baptism of children asked for by a parent bring that child to salvation? Does it bring them into the body of Christ? Is it necessary to bring them into fellowship with the church?

8b) Does the lack of Baptism anywhere in scripture prevent those who have not been born of a parent who has professed faith, and been baptized from finding salvation, joining the body of Christ, or the Church? If not, as I expect that is your answer, then upon profession does such a person need to be baptized, and if so could you explain why?


Then:

9. For Circumcision who explicitly required that the entire household's male population be circumcised? The Lord.

9a) If it was the Lord who explicitly required all born in a household that were male to be circumcized. Do you believe Baptism replaced circumcision as the symbol of being part of his church?

9b) Where is the doctrine preached by Jesus, Paul, or one of the other apostles, in the NT, where it is the duty of parents or the duty of the church to have their entire household baptized by the "profession" of one. (I'm tending to believe the one is usually the head of the household, but that's not necessary for this question.)
Then:

10. John's Baptism was always accompanied by repentance. If as with all Washings in the OT that sin was repented/confessed, is this not the same with Baptism in Christ? How then is this accomplished via this other baptism? Obedience to the law was never a means of salvation, but rather to show our sins, and point us to the Savior, Christ. The same is true of water baptism, it points us to the true washing of regeneration through the Spirit. Whole households are baptized through faith and repentance of only one. In the OT father's and husbands offered sacrafices for the whole family. To enter the kingdom of God one must be born again of the Spirit. The re-birth or Spiritual cleansing can only be done of the Lord by grace through faith.


10a) So you agree that washing in baptism symbolizes inward cleansing, Is that Correct? If so, does it actually cause cleansing, or is it just a ritual?

10b) If it does not cause cleansing, but does symbolize it, how profitable is this symbol to a child who was baptized who was to young to remember the baptism? Even better, how is it profitable to a child who has not yet professed a faith, or understood what repentance or sin are yet?

11 was tricky so I'll reword it:

11. In the Acts, which comes first hearing of the word, repentance and belief, or baptism? Not exactly certain what you want here.

11a) Do you believe a person has to be baptized before they can be saved?
11b) Do you believe a person must hear the word before they can be saved?
11c) Do you believe a person must put their faith in Christ before they can be saved?

11d) Of 11a, 11b, and 11c, which of the three must come before you can be saved? Must they hear first and be baptized, and then put their faith in Christ to be saved? (In other words must all three happen for a person to become saved?) If not, which of the three must happen to be saved?

One new question

13. If as I suspect you believe that salvation comes by hearing of the word and then putting your faith in Christ, that baptism is not necessary to be saved, why then should we baptize those who have not yet reached a point where they have professed belief in Christ, and thus lead them to a false sense of security that because their parent, guardian were saved, or because they were baptized as a child, that they are saved? Is there not an inherent danger in misleading those little ones of whom the Lord has entrusted to us to make sure they hear the word?

I'm really interested in what else you have to say, because as you may be aware, I grew up in a reformed Church. (Presbyterian Church in America to be exact). I was baptized as an infant, later professed belief, (because I do believe), and then when I got out on my own, came to the conclusion that my baptism as an infant was in error. Now, I am not trying to discourage your belief here. It has been almost ten years since I felt strong conviction about it and took the step to be baptized by immersion long after I was saved, but I've been out of Reformed circles for nearly that long, and have family who are still attending a similar church. I am interested in knowing, so I can better relate with them, should this topic come up.

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:15 PM
Greetings Butch,

Ge 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

What are the sacraments instituted by Christ in the new covenant? Baptism and the holy supper. These two sacraments are visible signs appointed by Christ, that He gives us [His church in time] to remind us of the blessings we have in the One sacrifice of Christ accomplished on the cross. There is a difference between His New Covenant and His covenant signs/symbols/tokens that point us to or give us knowledge of His everlasting Covenant. When we do not come under the covenant sign we are breaking His covenant, just as they did in the OT when they were not circumcised. That means the same for the church today as it did for the OT nation. We are denied the blessings and life that God bestows upon His covenant people. And we removed from the preaching and teaching through the Word of life. In other words we are no different than the world around us.

Salvation is by grace through faith. But Christ tells us to teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If this water baptism is the cleansing we receive through the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit why would Christ tell men to administer the sign? Is this being washed by His blood and Spirit, or does this symbolize being washed by His blood and Spirit?

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The baptism or washing/cleansing that truly saves is the washing of regeneration by the Spirit as He washes away our sins. We are cleansed by the blood of Christ, which the water of baptism symbolizes. The external baptism with water does not wash away our sins, for only Christ and the Holy Spirit can cleanse us from sin. Just as the filth of the flesh is outwardly cleansed away by water, so our sins are removed by the blood and Spirit of Christ Jesus. By His divine pledge and sign He assures us that we are Spiritually cleansed from our sins when we are born again.

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Many Blessings,
RW

Roger, I agree that the Holy Spirit is the one who baptizes us int o Christ. My contention is that this happens through water baptism. That is why we are water baptized. Peter say it perfectly.


1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



He says they were saved by water, this is water baptism, Peter says baptism saves us. However He says it is not the water. It is the answer of a good conscience towards God. In other words God meets us in the water, He answers the question in the water. We have to come through the water.

Butch5
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:18 PM
Hi Butch,

According to Scripture circumcision was a visible sign (token), but even reprobates like Ishmael and Esau received the sign. So clearly this visible sign cannot signify an invisible reality.



You seem to be saying you believe that being in covenant with God means to be saved, but that clearly was not the case in the OT. Since we are saved by the blood of Christ and washing of regeneration by the Spirit, what is water baptism if it is not a sign like circumcision? I really don't think you can continue to argue that water baptism is a means of salvation, regardless of what the early church taught.

Many Blessings,
RW

Baptism is how we accept the gospel. If we believe and repent and are baptized the Scriptures say we will receive the Holy Spirit.

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:26 PM
For those who've mentioned "hearing of the word" in relation to baptism. I ask, do you mean that someone had to tell them to be baptized. If so, I agree.

My own experience didn't involve hearing anything, but began with the Father revealing the Son to me. I then read the book of Matthew and the question of baptism came to my mind. Then I found a priest to baptize me, who first explained baptism before baptizing me. Is this what is meant by "hearing of the word"?

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:43 PM
Why do people continue to argue from silence? It means this because it doesn't say this. Have you followed this discussion? I've followed the entire discussion, thanks.


Being born of water is not the same as being born of the flesh. According to Jesus, it is, because that is what He indicated in John 3:5-6.


Jesus said you must be born again you must be born of water and the Spirit. Being born again is being born of water and the Spirit.Then why didn't Jesus say in John 3:6, "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit"?


Why would Jesus tell anyone they had to be born to enter the kingdom?That isn't really what He was saying. He was saying that merely being born of the flesh didn't mean anything. You have to be born of the Spirit.


First of all, how could anyone come to ask Jesus, if they had not been born? Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, because Nicodemus thought being born again meant to be physically born again. He said how can a man enter his mother's womb when He is old? Jesus basically says, I am not talking about being born in the flesh, that which is born of the flesh is flesh. Nicodemus, you must born of water and the Spirit. I have given plenty of evidence from the Scriptures regarding this. Evidence from Peter, Paul, and Jesus.And I just happen to disagree with your conclusions. These things happen. ;)


Regarding the early church, What about Origen? Did I say they were inspired? No. Did I say the were perfect? No. However, Is you pastor perfect? Is He inspired? If he makes a mistake do you get up an leave the church and say He is a heretic. I doubt it. You probably go on listening and learning from him. So why are you in such a hurry to disregard all of these men because one may say something that might be incorrect. I don't disregard them. I just don't try to say that my view is correct because some of them agree with me. Let's just stick with scripture and not let anyone else tell us what we should believe.


On all of the major doctrine in the early church, all of the major writers were in agreement. That does not mean they agreed on every single aspect of every single point.

Before you reject the early church, let me ask you a question? Do you believe the gospel of Matthew is inspired? Is it the inspired word of God? What about the gospel of Mark?

Look at them, where have they indicated that they wrote the books? Does Matthew say He wrote the book? What about Mark? Did He sign his book? No, they did not indicated that they wrote them. How then do we know who wrote them? We know from the early church. So, can we trust them to tell us who wrote the books, that we consider inspired, and yet think that they did not know what they were talking about?

Several of these men were companions of the apostles themselves. Men like, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, possibly Barnabas. Are we going to say that these men, who were personally discipled by the apostles didn't know what they were talking about? I believe some of them didn't know what they were talking about in some cases. Even the disciples themselves were often mistaken until Christ corrected them.


Could you please provide a reference for your statement regarding Origen?Sure. It's three paragraphs down. http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BBK1

Also, there's this site: http://www.dacb.org/stories/egypt/origen_.html

You have to scroll down to the Summary and go to #3 under the summary. I could give more sites. I could also give you sites that say Origen didn't believe that the Spirit was created. Who are we to believe? Let's just stick with the scripture and be careful not to have too much reliance on extra-biblical writings. I'm not saying we can't learn anything from those, but scripture is the final authority. We need to be like the Bereans and take what those guys say and search the scriptures to see if what they're saying is so or not.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:47 PM
Baptism is how we accept the gospel. If we believe and repent and are baptized the Scriptures say we will receive the Holy Spirit.I received the Spirit before ever being water baptized. Just like Cornelius and those in his household.

Acts 10
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:58 PM
For those who've mentioned "hearing of the word" in relation to baptism. I ask, do you mean that someone had to tell them to be baptized. If so, I agree.

My own experience didn't involve hearing anything, but began with the Father revealing the Son to me. I then read the book of Matthew and the question of baptism came to my mind. Then I found a priest to baptize me, who first explained baptism before baptizing me. Is this what is meant by "hearing of the word"?

No I've always understood that Hearing of the Word means to hear the Gospel. OUt of curiosity, How did the Father "reveal" the Son to you> I'm a little perplexed at that one.



Here's a verse.

Romans 10:14-18

"14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”"


Now paul was speaking particularly about Israel here, but I think it applies to gentiles as well. THis is what I believe the Great Commission was given. The lost need to hear the word.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:00 PM
Roger, I agree that the Holy Spirit is the one who baptizes us int o Christ. My contention is that this happens through water baptism. That is why we are water baptized. Peter say it perfectly.


1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
He says they were saved by water, this is water baptism, Peter says baptism saves us. However He says it is not the water. It is the answer of a good conscience towards God. In other words God meets us in the water, He answers the question in the water. We have to come through the water.

That is not the best translation of that passage. Was Noah and his family saved by the water? No. The water killed everyone else. They were saved by the ark. Here is a better translation of that passage:

1 Peter 3 (NASB)
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit:

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:10 PM
No I've always understood that Hearing of the Word means to hear the Gospel. OUt of curiosity, How did the Father "reveal" the Son to you> I'm a little perplexed at that one.



Here's a verse.

Romans 10:14-18

"14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”"


Now paul was speaking particularly about Israel here, but I think it applies to gentiles as well. THis is what I believe the Great Commission was given. The lost need to hear the word.

Now I'm speaking of the Son, Jesus Christ. I always believed in God. All I can say it was by revelation. Like the Galatians verse says,
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Guess "their sound" did go out into "all the earth". :)

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:11 PM
Can you give some evidence to support your claim that the water refers to the flesh.I already did. John 3:6 is a parallel verse to John 3:5. Jesus reiterates what He says in John 3:5 in John 3:6.

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The reason He says what He does in verse 6 is not to be redundant but to further clarify what He said in verse 5.

For your view to be correct, He would have had to say in verse 6, "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit". But He didn't. He made it clear that to be born again you had to be born of the Spirit. Being born of water was to be born of the flesh. Who someone is in the flesh (their race, nationality, social status, etc.) has nothing to do with entering into the kingdom of God. In order to enter the kingdom of God one must be born of the Spirit.

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:11 PM
Now I'm speaking of the Son, Jesus Christ. I always believed in God. All I can say it was by revelation. Like the Galatians verse says,
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught , but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Guess "their sound" did go out into "all the earth". :)

Ezekiel 36:24-28
"24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God."

Its an allusion to the OT. Remember Nichodemus was a Pharisee and a teacher of Israel. What the passage says is he (God) would gather them from the nations, sprinkle clean water on them, cleanse them from their uncleanness. That is what it means to be born of water, to be made clean, then it goes on and says that it will take their stone hearts (remember in scripture where it was prophesied "Harden not your hearts"?), he will take them and give it a heart of Flesh. Flesh symbolizes that its soft, that it has emotion, that it is no longer fixed on what it was before. And then, for extra measure he is saying he will put His Spirit within them, and cause them to walk in His Statutes.

Now if that's not almost an identical frame of thought for that passage of John I'm not sure you'll find another.


SO when Christ said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

It's very simple, to enter the gate you must be found clean, remember the parable of the wedding?


Matt: 22:1-

"1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2“The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son,
3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast [I]him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”"

In essence, this one attendee came in and was not properly clothed. God is a Holy God, and he cannot let sin in his sight therefore, we must be cleansed before we can "enter in".

Butch5
Oct 24th 2008, 02:31 AM
John---According to Jesus, it is, because that is what He indicated in John 3:5-6.

IF you study the Greek you will see that being born again is two fold


John---Then why didn't Jesus say in John 3:6, "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit"?


I can't answer for Jesus, my guess is because He was contrasting the Spirit and the flesh.


John---I don't disregard them. I just don't try to say that my view is correct because some of them agree with me. Let's just stick with scripture and not let anyone else tell us what we should believe.

First let me say, I don't say they agree with me, I agree with them. Who am I that what I think should mean anything? These men were taught by the apostles or the disciples of the apostles. That is some pretty strong credentials.
I don't let anyone tell me what to believe. You say let's just stick with Scripture, OK, who's interpretation of Scripture? Do you speak Greek? If not then we are dealing with some one's interpretation of Scripture. Do you understand what was happening during the time the NT was being written? We have to understand what was going on in order to understand what the writers were talking about. Remember the NT writers were not writing an instruction manual for Christians, they were dealing with issues that the churches were dealing with.
Let me ask you a question, no offense intended. You live 2000 years after the fact, in a different culture, in a different part of the world, you speak a completely different language. You don't know what was happening at the time, What is the criteria that you use when you look at the Scriptures?
You see I realize that the things I mentioned above are limitations on my being able to understand the Scriptures, that is one reason that I study the Ante-Nicene Fathers, If Paul said something that I did not understand Maybe Clement of Rome has expanded on the subject in his writings. Since Clement traveled with Paul and was discipled by him, there is a pretty good chance that He knew what Paul was teaching. The Ante-Nicene writers are a tremendous value, in understanding the Scriptures. Yes, the Scriptures are our final authority, but how do I know if I am reading them correctly? Do I look to a 21st century commentary. Do I look to Calvin or Wesley? No, I am looking to Clement, a man that was there, He spoke the language, he lived in the culture, he lived in the time, and he knew what was going on at the time.
Do you use commentaries? How do you know if they are correct? I know that Clement heard Paul teach and He watched Paul live, I think that is a much better commentary.
My friend I you don't use the Ante-Nicene Fathers to help you understand the Scriptures, then you are missing out on a great treasure.



John---I believe some of them didn't know what they were talking about in some cases. Even the disciples themselves were often mistaken until Christ corrected them.

Yes, and once Christ opened their eyes they understood and then they taught their disciples what had been given to them.




John---You have to scroll down to the Summary and go to #3 under the summary. I could give more sites. I could also give you sites that say Origen didn't believe that the Spirit was created. Who are we to believe? Let's just stick with the scripture and be careful not to have too much reliance on extra-biblical writings. I'm not saying we can't learn anything from those, but scripture is the final authority. We need to be like the Bereans and take what those guys say and search the scriptures to see if what they're saying is so or not.

Neither, you don't believe either. You go to the primary source, you go to Origen's writings and you find out for yourself. Yes we need to be like the Bereans, but how many people do you know that are like the Bereans? Most people don't study. I don't just take what the ECF's say, I check it against Scripture. The funny thing is, when you understand the Scriptures through their eyes, you don't have problem verses that you have to try and get away from. In their understanding of the Scriptures there is no conflict between Paul and James, there is no conflict between being justified by faith and being justified by work, there is no confusion regarding the Trinity, there is no confusion about predestination and free will, or about whether or not you can lose salvation. Why do you suppose they didn't have these problems? Churches today have all of these problems, why? Because many people want to interpret the scriptures, many people think they know what the Scriptures say, the problem is most people have no idea what was happening during the NT times and what the Issues were that were being addressed. You cannot interpret Scripture in a vacuum. The Ante-Nicene writers tell us loads of stuff that was going on during the time of the early church.

Butch5
Oct 24th 2008, 02:32 AM
I received the Spirit before ever being water baptized. Just like Cornelius and those in his household.

Acts 10
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Well, I can't say anything about that. However, I can ask on what basis do you know that ?

Butch5
Oct 24th 2008, 02:43 AM
That is not the best translation of that passage. Was Noah and his family saved by the water? No. The water killed everyone else. They were saved by the ark. Here is a better translation of that passage:

1 Peter 3 (NASB)
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit:

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I could produce probably 20 translations that say saved by or through water, are they all wrong? The translation doesn't matter anyway because Peter clearly connects the baptism that He is speaking of with water. That is the whole reason for giving Noah as an example. It is to show He is referring to water baptism.

Please go to Scripture and show me how it is that water baptism doesn't have anything to do with salvation.

Butch5
Oct 24th 2008, 02:48 AM
I already did. John 3:6 is a parallel verse to John 3:5. Jesus reiterates what He says in John 3:5 in John 3:6.

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The reason He says what He does in verse 6 is not to be redundant but to further clarify what He said in verse 5.

For your view to be correct, He would have had to say in verse 6, "that which is born of water and the Spirit is spirit". But He didn't. He made it clear that to be born again you had to be born of the Spirit. Being born of water was to be born of the flesh. Who someone is in the flesh (their race, nationality, social status, etc.) has nothing to do with entering into the kingdom of God. In order to enter the kingdom of God one must be born of the Spirit.

I guess you are not willing to study it? Can you please show me "gramatically' how verse 6 refers back to verse 5 and not to verse 4?

Veretax
Oct 24th 2008, 11:40 AM
I could produce probably 20 translations that say saved by or through water, are they all wrong? The translation doesn't matter anyway because Peter clearly connects the baptism that He is speaking of with water. That is the whole reason for giving Noah as an example. It is to show He is referring to water baptism.

Please go to Scripture and show me how it is that water baptism doesn't have anything to do with salvation.



There is one thing that we are forgetting about the flood I think. What was the result of the flood? Did it not wipe out all the wicked? Is that not very similar to being cleansed? So I'm not going to argue about whether water means baptism of water, or if it means inward cleansing, cause I believe the two are linked very closely together.

uric3
Oct 24th 2008, 01:39 PM
I received the Spirit before ever being water baptized. Just like Cornelius and those in his household.

Acts 10
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I'm not saying your not telling the truth because who knows perhaps this did happen to you... however the event you record was a one time event ever recording in the Bible. This event only happened one other time thats recorded in the Bible anyway. So why was it done? It was done to prove a point to the Jews present, that Gentiles was accepted. Here are some passages to help point this out. There are only two accounts of this ever happening one being Acts 10 as you mention and the other in Acts 2

In Acts 2 we have the apostles waiting in Jerusalem as Christ had instructed them in Acts 1. Then the 12 are baptized with the Holy Spirit and begun to speak in various tongues etc.. How do we know it was only 12? vs 11

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:" Had this happened to the 120+ mentioned in Acts 1 then wouldn't have been Peter standing up with the 120+ also its stated in vs 7 "And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans" I doubt the 120+ mentioned in Acts 1:15 were all Galilaeans only the 12 would have fit that in Acts 2:7.

So how do we know Acts 10 was the only other time this happened(thats recorded) of course you have the passage you mentioned in Acts 10 where it occured... lets look at chapter 11 where Peter is recalling it...

Acts 11:1-ff lets notice verse 15

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

Peter mentions that hey this was different its what happened to us at the beginning Acts 2 first time it occured.

Why didn't he state it fell on them like it had everyone else? Well because it didn't... how did those after Acts 2 get spiritual gifts? We see in Acts 8:13-19 we see how and it even notes Simon noticed it. What did he notice? vs 18

" 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given..."

This is how it was given others passages support this as well such as Acts 19:1-7 etc...

So why did God do it in Acts 10 like he did at the beginning what was its purpose?
Simple to prove to Peter and the Jews present that Gentiles was not unclean that they where accepted. Because before that time the gospel had only been preached to the Jews. Also notice everyones reaction in Acts 11 when Peter is reaccounting what happened.

Acts 11:18 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Those present realized that Gentiles was now accepted and they rejoiced... it was done to prove a point... notice Acts 10 vs 45

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The Jews with Peter where astonished because they didn't think Gentiles were to even be assocaited with really... it was only through Peters vision they went in the first place notice that in vs 28 of chapter 10.

So to wrap it up the baptism as mentioned in Acts 10 only happened one other time... which was in Acts 2. Peter even points that out in Acts 11:18 that it was like what happened at the beggining. Those are the only two accounts of an event like this in the NT. Why did it happen a second time... as pointed out to prove to the Jews that gentiles was accepted... was water baptism an option? Nope it was needed and a must, Peter commanded it in Acts 10:46-ff

Teke
Oct 24th 2008, 03:05 PM
Ezekiel 36:24-28
"24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God."

Its an allusion to the OT. Remember Nichodemus was a Pharisee and a teacher of Israel. What the passage says is he (God) would gather them from the nations, sprinkle clean water on them, cleanse them from their uncleanness. That is what it means to be born of water, to be made clean, then it goes on and says that it will take their stone hearts (remember in scripture where it was prophesied "Harden not your hearts"?), he will take them and give it a heart of Flesh. Flesh symbolizes that its soft, that it has emotion, that it is no longer fixed on what it was before. And then, for extra measure he is saying he will put His Spirit within them, and cause them to walk in His Statutes.

Now if that's not almost an identical frame of thought for that passage of John I'm not sure you'll find another.


SO when Christ said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

It's very simple, to enter the gate you must be found clean, remember the parable of the wedding?


Matt: 22:1-

"1 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2“The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son,
3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”"

In essence, this one attendee came in and was not properly clothed. God is a Holy God, and he cannot let sin in his sight therefore, we must be cleansed before we can "enter in".

Veretax, I don't disagree with this view. I agree it is part of baptism to be cleansed. But that doesn't mean an "inward change" magically happens (I say this toward answering the OP). We are clean, but we only stay that way through repentance, confession. God's mercy by forgiveness keeps us clean as the virgin bride.


I received the Spirit before ever being water baptized. Just like Cornelius and those in his household.

-------------------
Was Noah and his family saved by the water? No. The water killed everyone else. They were saved by the ark. Here is a better translation of that passage:


I believe this happens, even though it may be different for each person in "how" it happens to them. But I also believe that this is what I would term "revelation" (whether that be tongues or an epiphany). When this happens I believe baptism is still necessary to be sealed by the Holy Spirit (confess Him before men and He will confess you before the Father, Matt. 10:32,33, Luke 12:8,9). My churches order of baptism is denouncing satan, vowing to follow the Lord, water immersion three times in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, robed in white garment and anointed with chrism in being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

The "revelation" could also be termed a foretaste. In that it gives the person receiving that taste, so to speak, before they come to baptism. Aka valley of decision, I'd parallel this to Noah and the souls in the ark before they came out (what really saved them in the ark was the "pitch" (Gen. 6:14) within and without) which "sealed" the ark, and David with the three mighty men of his, in the cave of Adullam (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=11612&highlight=Adullam)), to name a couple of examples.
I know people who have received the revelation but would not come to baptism. Even historically there were people who wouldn't accept baptism till on their death beds. Baptism can be both joy/exciting and fear/frightening for a person in that it is also a testimony before God. Not something we'd take lightly.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 04:38 PM
How do you separate Spirit from water to equate they are separate things.
Can you see the Spirit separate from the water? All can see water, but to say that the Spirit is not present is to say something that all can't see. So I don't see how you can come to such a conclusion. Sorry, I'm not following you.


I have heard an ancient teaching that spoke of water being blessed with the Spirit by Jesus' baptism. Whether that means anything depends on how one sees things. IOW since Jesus is God, meaning Father, Son and Holy Spirit, these indivisible entered water (as in the Son's baptism), how would we know that the Spirit isn't in the water. The words literally say the Son entered the water for His baptism.I'm still not following you.


So if, "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body", what negates the Spirit using the means of water.Because He is a Spirit. He doesn't need anything physical to do what He does.


Seems we agree baptism places one into the Body. It's not so far fetched to believe that the Spirit uses water to do so, as the Spirit does what it wills. Do you believe that the thief on the cross was baptized into the body of Christ?


Here are a couple verses, how would you differentiate the water from the Spirit in them.

Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. John the Baptist himself differentiated between the two.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Where does it ever say that Christ needed water to baptize someone with the Holy Spirit?


Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Look at the context.

John 3
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus clearly didn't know what being born again meant. He amusingly wondered how one could enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born. Jesus then clarified that it wasn't enough to just be born naturally of water and the flesh. You had to be born again. Not of water or the flesh, but of the Spirit. That's why He says in verse 6, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Notice that He doesn't say that being born of water and the Spirit is spirit. That is because being born again has nothing to do with natural birth, water baptism or anything physical. It has to do with being born from above of the Spirit. It is completely a spiritual experience. Jesus isn't saying anything about water baptism at all in that passage.

Another possible explanation for the use of the term water there is that Jesus was referring to this passage:

Ezekiel 36
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Either way, water baptism is not at all in view in John 3:5 because being born again is entirely a spiritual experience.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 05:12 PM
I believe this happens, even though it may be different for each person in "how" it happens to them. But I also believe that this is what I would term "revelation" (whether that be tongues or an epiphany). When this happens I believe baptism is still necessary to be sealed by the Holy Spirit (confess Him before men and He will confess you before the Father, Matt. 10:32,33, Luke 12:8,9). My churches order of baptism is denouncing satan, vowing to follow the Lord, water immersion three times in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, robed in white garment and anointed with chrism in being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

The "revelation" could also be termed a foretaste. In that it gives the person receiving that taste, so to speak, before they come to baptism. Aka valley of decision, I'd parallel this to Noah and the souls in the ark before they came out (what really saved them in the ark was the "pitch" (Gen. 6:14) within and without) which "sealed" the ark, and David with the three mighty men of his, in the cave of Adullam (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=11612&highlight=Adullam)), to name a couple of examples.
I know people who have received the revelation but would not come to baptism. Even historically there were people who wouldn't accept baptism till on their death beds. Baptism can be both joy/exciting and fear/frightening for a person in that it is also a testimony before God. Not something we'd take lightly.Sorry, but none of that made any sense to me. If water baptism was necessary for salvation then the thief on the cross is in big trouble, the person who repented and put their faith in Christ but died before they could be water baptized is in trouble and so on.

ananias
Oct 24th 2008, 05:30 PM
Is baptism and outward sign of an inward change or conversion? This question came up in another thread, because I had stated that baptism is not an outward sign of an inward change. What do I mean by such a statement? Before I answer this question I would like your input with Scripture support.

Many Blessings,
RW

I haven't read all the answers to this OP in this thread yet, because the thread is kinda long, but I wonder if anyone hasn't asked if the outward sign of an inward change isn't "... love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control;... crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts... live in the Spirit... walk in the Spirit....not glory-seeking.. not provoking one another, not envying one another." (Gal.5: 22-26)

Baptism is something else - a "ritual" - perhaps the only other of two "rituals" commanded by the Lord (the other one is communion)

ananias

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 06:15 PM
Well, I can't say anything about that. However, I can ask on what basis do you know that ?Because I know I was changed on the inside. I looked at things differently after that day. God gave me a new outlook on life and I knew the Spirit was dwelling in me. Are you going to deny that Cornelius and the others in his household received the Spirit before they were baptized in water? It says so right there in Acts 10.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 06:19 PM
Hi Eric,

I've heard that argument, and in fact used to believe it also. But it does not make sense to me that Christ would be speaking to a living, breathing Nicodemus, and telling him that he must be physically born in order to be Spiritually born.

Blessings,
RWBut that isn't really what he was telling him. Read John 3:6. He clarified what He was saying. He was saying that being born of the flesh was just flesh. The flesh didn't have anything to do with being born again. It only had to do with being born of the Spirit. Notice that He didn't say that being born of water and the Spirit is spirit in John 3:6. If being born of water was a crucial component to being born again then why wouldn't He have mentioned it again in John 3:6?

If you are saying the term water is being used in a symbolic sense as spiritual water that the Spirit uses to cleanse us, I can allow for that possibility. I still think my view makes more sense, though. Either way, I am certain that He was not talking about water baptism.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 06:35 PM
I could produce probably 20 translations that say saved by or through water, are they all wrong?The word "through" can have a much different meaning than the word "by". I can accept the word being translated as "through".


The translation doesn't matter anyway because Peter clearly connects the baptism that He is speaking of with water. That is the whole reason for giving Noah as an example. It is to show He is referring to water baptism.I believe you're denying the obvious here. Were they really saved by the water? Absolutely not. They were saved by the ark by making it through the water without drowning in the water like everyone else. How could the water that drowned and killed everyone but Noah and his family be seen as having somehow saved Noah and his family? That makes absolutely no sense.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 06:42 PM
I guess you are not willing to study it? Can you please show me "gramatically' how verse 6 refers back to verse 5 and not to verse 4?I have studied this issue in depth so you can keep your needless insults to yourself. I believe He refers back to both verses 4 and 5. I believe that since He knew that Nicodemus was kind of dense about the issue, He knew He had to reiterate and clarify what He was saying and clarify it more than once in order for Nicodemus to understand.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 06:56 PM
I'm not saying your not telling the truth because who knows perhaps this did happen to you...It did happen to me. You have no reason to question it. The same thing has happened to many others as well.


however the event you record was a one time event ever recording in the Bible. This event only happened one other time thats recorded in the Bible anyway. So why was it done? It was done to prove a point to the Jews present, that Gentiles was accepted. Here are some passages to help point this out. There are only two accounts of this ever happening one being Acts 10 as you mention and the other in Acts 2

In Acts 2 we have the apostles waiting in Jerusalem as Christ had instructed them in Acts 1. Then the 12 are baptized with the Holy Spirit and begun to speak in various tongues etc.. How do we know it was only 12? vs 11

"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:" Had this happened to the 120+ mentioned in Acts 1 then wouldn't have been Peter standing up with the 120+ also its stated in vs 7 "And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans" I doubt the 120+ mentioned in Acts 1:15 were all Galilaeans only the 12 would have fit that in Acts 2:7.

So how do we know Acts 10 was the only other time this happened(thats recorded) of course you have the passage you mentioned in Acts 10 where it occured... lets look at chapter 11 where Peter is recalling it...

Acts 11:1-ff lets notice verse 15

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

Peter mentions that hey this was different its what happened to us at the beginning Acts 2 first time it occured.

Why didn't he state it fell on them like it had everyone else? Well because it didn't... how did those after Acts 2 get spiritual gifts? We see in Acts 8:13-19 we see how and it even notes Simon noticed it. What did he notice? vs 18

" 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given..."

This is how it was given others passages support this as well such as Acts 19:1-7 etc...

So why did God do it in Acts 10 like he did at the beginning what was its purpose?
Simple to prove to Peter and the Jews present that Gentiles was not unclean that they where accepted. Because before that time the gospel had only been preached to the Jews. Also notice everyones reaction in Acts 11 when Peter is reaccounting what happened.

Acts 11:18 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Those present realized that Gentiles was now accepted and they rejoiced... it was done to prove a point... notice Acts 10 vs 45

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The Jews with Peter where astonished because they didn't think Gentiles were to even be assocaited with really... it was only through Peters vision they went in the first place notice that in vs 28 of chapter 10.

So to wrap it up the baptism as mentioned in Acts 10 only happened one other time... which was in Acts 2.I'm not buying this idea that those incidents were just the exception. Read Luke 18:9-14. Was the publican baptized in water before being declared that he was justified? No.

It is possible for one to be baptized by the Spirit both before and after being baptized in water. This shows that being baptized in water is not really what determines whether one is baptized by the Spirit or not. When one is baptized in water it should be for the purpose of publicly showing that you are turning from your sin and giving your life to Christ. That is what really matters: repenting of your sin and believing in Christ. It isn't the physical act that God is looking for. He looks at people's hearts.

What you will see that occurred every time before one received the Spirit and was baptized by the Spirit was that they first repented and believed. Salvation is a spiritual experience. One must repent in their hearts and believe in their hearts in order to be saved. There is nothing physical about it. The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet he was saved. All believers throughout history have been saved the same way: by grace through repentance and faith. If water baptism was required for salvation then there's a lot of people who truly repented and believed who are going to end up not being saved.

uric3
Oct 24th 2008, 07:54 PM
It did happen to me. You have no reason to question it. The same thing has happened to many others as well.

I'm not buying this idea that those incidents were just the exception. Read Luke 18:9-14. Was the publican baptized in water before being declared that he was justified? No.

It is possible for one to be baptized by the Spirit both before and after being baptized in water. This shows that being baptized in water is not really what determines whether one is baptized by the Spirit or not. When one is baptized in water it should be for the purpose of publicly showing that you are turning from your sin and giving your life to Christ. That is what really matters: repenting of your sin and believing in Christ. It isn't the physical act that God is looking for. He looks at people's hearts.

What you will see that occurred every time before one received the Spirit and was baptized by the Spirit was that they first repented and believed. Salvation is a spiritual experience. One must repent in their hearts and believe in their hearts in order to be saved. There is nothing physical about it. The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet he was saved. All believers throughout history have been saved the same way: by grace through repentance and faith. If water baptism was required for salvation then there's a lot of people who truly repented and believed who are going to end up not being saved.

I think this is where we differ I think baptism is a must for salvation... the thief on the cross and the example of the publican are still under OT order which they would have been justified under. NT order didn't occur until after the death of Christ, Heb 9:13-17 tells us that a testament isn't in affect until after the death of the testator.

Also as stated earlier in this tread Baptism is used to wash away sins Acts 22:16... Christ could forgiven sins while he was on earth Mark 2:9-10 so the thief didn't have to worry... but since Christ is on the right hand of God we no have baptism to wash them away(though the blood of Christ).

Look at the conversion of Paul in Acts 9, 22 etc... If he was saved after just repentance and faith he was the saddest convert ever... when did he become happy and finally eat? After he was baptized, he was told what he must do... he being they key part to show it was water baptism because no man can control baptism of the spirit... only God does that. So Paul wasn't happy until after he was baptized in water which is what HE had to do.

After Christ death from Acts on there is not one example of someone not being baptized as soon as possible. Every time its right then and there, that same hour etc... they didn't wait to be baptized into water because of its importance. Phillip on the side of the road in Acts 8, the Jailer in Acts 16 in the middle of the night that same hour, etc...

If its just something we should do or have an option to do that doesn't pertain to our salvation then I don't understand the urgency show in the NT to have it done so quickly.

RogerW
Oct 24th 2008, 08:19 PM
The Bible speaks of water baptism and Spirit baptism, yet Paul says there is one baptism. How do you reconcile this? If we look at Jesus' baptism we see that Jesus was baptized and upon coming out of the water the Spirit descended upon him. We have Jesus words, except a man be born of water and the Spirit He cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Peter said, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.

Paul said, He[God]saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:4-5 ( KJV ) 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Colossians 2:11-12 ( KJV ) 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

These Scriptures make it clear that Spirit Baptism comes through water baptism, so the one baptism is water baptism, through which God does the Spirit baptism.

As for the early church, let me clarify. By the early Church I mean the Ante-Nicene Church. The Ante-Nicene writers. They are in agreement. There are more but this should be sufficient.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? “And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever.” (Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. “And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,”
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

And I said to him, “I should like to continue my questions.” “Speak on,” said he. And I said, “I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins.” He said to me, “That was sound doctrine which you heard; for that is really the case. For he who has received remission of his sins ought not to sin any more, but to live in purity

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Hermas 150

Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160

Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Justin Martyr 160
But there is no other [way] than this,—to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins; and for the rest, to live sinless lives.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.
In refuting the Gnostics

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180

“And dipped himself,” says [the Scripture], “seven times in Jordan.” (2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (John 3:5)
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria 195

Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ3III-2-3 Jesus Christ, are born in water,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life” (John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228

Matthew alone adds the words “to repentance,” teaching that the benefit of baptism is connected with the intention of the baptized person; to him who repents it is salutary, but to him who comes to it without repentance it will turn to greater condemnation.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Origen 228
“by the laver of regeneration,” (Titus 3:5) through which they were born “as new-born babes,
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Pamohilius 309

Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.

Greetings Butch,

Eric makes two very good points. (1) I too, like Eric knew I had been born again through the Spirit before I was baptized. I became saved when I heard the gospel of my salvation through the power of the Word and Spirit, just as God in His Word promised. My baptism came weeks later. But, like Eric there was no doubt in my mind that I had been changed. (2) While it is true that much can be learned by looking back at church history, it is also important to remember the early church fathers did not have good understanding of doctrine. When we study the church fathers, it's a good idea to look at how they interpret other doctrines, and not only baptism.

Take Ignatius for instance. He believed that baptism washed away sin, but he also believed the eucharist to be the medicine of immortality, and that the bread is the literal flesh of Christ, and the drink His literal blood. This was not uncommon at that time.

Ignatius on baptism: “For our God Jesus Christ ... was born and baptized, that through his passion he might purify water, to the washing away of sin.” (Ephesians.)

On the eucharist: “... obeying your bishop and the presbytery with an entire affection; breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality; our antidote that we should not die, but live forever in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians.)

“I desire the bread of God which is the flesh of Jesus Christ (of the seed of David), and the drink that I long for is his blood, which is incorruptible love." (Romans.)

Justin viewed baptism as a bath of repentance and knowledge of God, through which the Spirit is imparted, a replacement for circumcision, and the doorway to the remission of sins. The eucharist is the new sacrifice foretold by Malachi. He interpreted the words “Do this” to mean “offer this.” He associated the eucharist with Christ’s passion and he believed in the Real Presence: “We do not receive these as common bread or common drink. But just as our Savior Jesus Christ was made flesh through the Word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food that has been eucharistized by the word of prayer from Him (that food which by process of assimilation nourishes our flesh and blood) is the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus.”

Tertullian argued against infant baptism. His reason was not that infant baptism is not of apostolic origin. Instead, he seems to hold that there is no forgiveness of sins committed after baptism. He argued that the unmarried should put off baptism until they marry; that single persons should delay baptism until old age; that widows and widowers should wait until they remarry or are confirmed in continence.

We get a much fuller picture of how Tertullian viewed baptism by searching the historical records to see all he had to say on the subject. Interestingly Tertullian teaches against infant baptism while stating he did this against the teaching of the apostles. When we see not only what these early church fathers believed and taught on all the doctrines of the Bible, we have better information to determine what they really understood, and then we can determine whether or not we should follow their doctrines.

Let me ask you a question. If it is true that Spirit baptism comes through water baptism then why did Christ send Paul to preach the gospel instead of baptizing? Paul gives us the answer, because the preaching of the cross, not baptizing is the power of God unto salvation, just like it was for both myself and Eric.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Certainly if salvation came through water baptism, Christ would have instructed Paul to not only preach, but more importantly to baptize.

Many Blessings,
RW

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 08:21 PM
I think this is where we differ I think baptism is a must for salvation... the thief on the cross and the example of the publican are still under OT order which they would have been justified under.How were OT saints saved and why would the manner in which they are saved be any different than the manner in which we are saved?


NT order didn't occur until after the death of Christ, Heb 9:13-17 tells us that a testament isn't in affect until after the death of the testator. Why were people getting water baptized before Christ died then? Did they need to get baptized again after He died?


Also as stated earlier in this tread Baptism is used to wash away sins Acts 22:16... Christ could forgiven sins while he was on earth Mark 2:9-10 so the thief didn't have to worry... but since Christ is on the right hand of God we no have baptism to wash them away(though the blood of Christ). How can something physical wash away what is spiritual?


Look at the conversion of Paul in Acts 9, 22 etc... If he was saved after just repentance and faith he was the saddest convert ever... when did he become happy and finally eat? After he was baptized, he was told what he must do... he being they key part to show it was water baptism because no man can control baptism of the spirit... only God does that. So Paul wasn't happy until after he was baptized in water which is what HE had to do.Were Cornelius and those in his house happy before or after they were baptized in water?


After Christ death from Acts on there is not one example of someone not being baptized as soon as possible. Every time its right then and there, that same hour etc... they didn't wait to be baptized into water because of its importance. Phillip on the side of the road in Acts 8, the Jailer in Acts 16 in the middle of the night that same hour, etc...

If its just something we should do or have an option to do that doesn't pertain to our salvation then I don't understand the urgency show in the NT to have it done so quickly.I don't see that there was necessarily an urgency to do so as much as a case of there not really being any reason to put it off until later since they were by water already, anyway. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be water baptized. I'm just saying it's a symbolic ritual to represent the spiritual baptism that takes place inside of us. If it was necessary for salvation then why did Cornelius and others in his house receive the Spirit even before they were baptized in water?

What about the case where someone privately repents and puts their faith and trust in Christ but they are not near water and they die before they can get someone to baptize them. Are you going to tell me that person was not saved?

Teke
Oct 24th 2008, 08:22 PM
Sorry, I'm not following you.

I'm still not following you.

Because He is a Spirit. He doesn't need anything physical to do what He does.

It's not a matter of what He "needs", it's a matter of obeying His commands. An argument such as "He doesn't need anything physical" begs the question, why are you here. It doesn't make sense to say something like that.


Do you believe that the thief on the cross was baptized into the body of Christ?

No I do not.


John the Baptist himself differentiated between the two.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Where does it ever say that Christ needed water to baptize someone with the Holy Spirit?

Christ is God Incarnate of human flesh and blood, God is Spirit (John 4:24) depicted in scripture by references to such things as fire (consuming fire Deut. 4:24, appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:.. the bush burned with fire,....bush [was] not consumed Ex. 3:2), water (living water John 4:10, Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters Gen. 1:2).

So John is not differentiating but making a connection.

Teke
Oct 24th 2008, 08:30 PM
Sorry, but none of that made any sense to me. If water baptism was necessary for salvation then the thief on the cross is in big trouble, the person who repented and put their faith in Christ but died before they could be water baptized is in trouble and so on.

Yes, and he knows he's in trouble, which is why he says, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." It's a plea for mercy. I'm not saying that the Lord wouldn't be merciful to the man. I'm just saying he hasn't been baptized. There is a difference.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 08:37 PM
Yes, and he knows he's in trouble, which is why he says, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." It's a plea for mercy. I'm not saying that the Lord wouldn't be merciful to the man. I'm just saying he hasn't been baptized. There is a difference.What? Are you saying that he still needs to be baptized in order to be saved? :confused

Teke
Oct 24th 2008, 08:39 PM
Here you make statements on what you previously said you don't understand. :hmm:


I believe you're denying the obvious here. Were they really saved by the water? Absolutely not.
They were saved from evil, all the evil was washed away by the water.


They were saved by the ark by making it through the water without drowning in the water like everyone else. How could the water that drowned and killed everyone but Noah and his family be seen as having somehow saved Noah and his family? That makes absolutely no sense.

Sure it does. Your just not understanding this. I already pointed out to you that it was the "pitch" which sealed the ark that was able to keep them alive in the ark.

This can be paralleled with the birth analogy. In the womb before birth the infant is sealed inside a bag of water.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 08:43 PM
It's not a matter of what He "needs", it's a matter of obeying His commands. An argument such as "He doesn't need anything physical" begs the question, why are you here. It doesn't make sense to say something like that.We are baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit. There's nothing physical about it.


No I do not.Wow, that's too bad. Do you not think the thief on the cross is part of the body of Christ at all then?


Christ is God Incarnate of human flesh and blood, God is Spirit (John 4:24) depicted in scripture by references to such things as fire (consuming fire Deut. 4:24, appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:.. the bush burned with fire,....bush [was] not consumed Ex. 3:2), water (living water John 4:10, Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters Gen. 1:2).

So John is not differentiating but making a connection.I disagree.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 08:46 PM
Here you make statements on what you previously said you don't understand. :hmm:What are you talking about?


They were saved from evil, all the evil was washed away by the water.Is that what it says? No, they were saved from physical death. How? By being in the safety of the ark.


Sure it does. Your just not understanding this. I already pointed out to you that it was the "pitch" which sealed the ark that was able to keep them alive in the ark. Come on. The pitch was part of the ark. Without the ark, what good would the pitch have done?


This can be paralleled with the birth analogy. In the womb before birth the infant is sealed inside a bag of water.I'm not buying what you're selling. We'll have to just agree to disagree on this since we're starting to repeat ourselves.

Teke
Oct 24th 2008, 08:47 PM
What? Are you saying that he still needs to be baptized in order to be saved? :confused

"Saved" is not a one time event. The man will still have to face God before the final judgment as all of us will.

Here is the rest of what he said before he said, "remember me when you come into your kingdom".

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

You don't read of Jesus telling him he was wrong about that. The man is able to ask God for mercy in judgment of him.
IOW the man is ready to face his consequences (be responsible) but is smart enough to ask for mercy.

uric3
Oct 24th 2008, 08:58 PM
Q: How were OT saints saved and why would the manner in which they are saved be any different than the manner in which we are saved?

A: Because we are under a Different testament... we have different laws and practices. if we did the same things they did in the OT why wouldn't we offer sacrifice and watch what we eat such as pork etc...

Q: Why were people getting water baptized before Christ died then? Did they need to get baptized again after He died?

A: You had Johns baptism of Repentance however once Christ died you had the baptism of Father Son and Holy Spirit. Acts 19:1-7 show that 12 men where re-baptized in the name of Christ that only knew the Baptism of John... so yes ppl was re-baptized.

Q: How can something physical wash away what is spiritual?

A: Not sure how it works... just like God choose the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe(active obedience) it. Kind of Like Naaman in 2 Kings 5 thought dipping seven times was foolish however he did it and it worked... same thing... God says in his inspired word Acts 22:16 that, thats what it does... so who am I to question it.

Q: Were Cornelius and those in his house happy before or after they were baptized in water?

A: Its not recorded I don't think they had time because Peter ordered them to be baptized into Christ(water baptism) right after it happened.

Statement: I don't see that there was necessarily an urgency to do so as much as a case of there not really being any reason to put it off until later since they were by water already, anyway. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be water baptized.

Not the case Granted the story of Phillip in Acts 8 sure there was water one the side of the road... however looks at Acts 16... why go in the middle of the night that same hour... why not wait till morning or when your near water? Or in the other examples such as Acts 10 why did command it and have them be baptized right after it happened why not wait till later...


Q: I'm just saying it's a symbolic ritual to represent the spiritual baptism that takes place inside of us. If it was necessary for salvation then why did Cornelius and others in his house receive the Spirit even before they were baptized in water?

A: If its symbolic and to show others its an outside thing... why do it on the side of the road when no one is there? Why do it in the middle of th night without other members of the church present? No one saw this sign except the person being baptized and the one doing it... afterwards how would anyone know... water dries up... As for Cornlius I think I covered that pretty well earlier if you read my earlier post I showed by book chapter and verse that it was to prove to Peter and the Jews present that Gentiles could be saved... because before that event the gospel was preached to the Jews only.

Q: What about the case where someone privately repents and puts their faith and trust in Christ but they are not near water and they die before they can get someone to baptize them. Are you going to tell me that person was not saved?

A: I don't know... I'm not the judge however a verse that I think of is Matt 7:21-23 we see those who believed in Christ and obviously did some kind of works in his name are cast aside because they didn't do what they was ask... or did what wasn't ask of them... wither way they practiced lawlessness thus forfeiting their salvation...

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 09:06 PM
"Saved" is not a one time event. The man will still have to face God before the final judgment as all of us will. But our destinies are determined by then. That's why the sheep are separated from the goats. It's a day of final sentencing not of final deliberation.




Here is the rest of what he said before he said, "remember me when you come into your kingdom".

Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

You don't read of Jesus telling him he was wrong about that. The man is able to ask God for mercy in judgment of him.
IOW the man is ready to face his consequences (be responsible) but is smart enough to ask for mercy.Is the thief on the cross saved right now or not? You seem to be suggesting that people can be saved on judgment day. Is that what you believe?

Teke
Oct 24th 2008, 09:20 PM
Greetings Butch,

Eric makes two very good points. (1) I too, like Eric knew I had been born again through the Spirit before I was baptized. I became saved when I heard the gospel of my salvation through the power of the Word and Spirit, just as God in His Word promised. My baptism came weeks later. But, like Eric there was no doubt in my mind that I had been changed.

Can you explain further this change, other than it being a change of mind/thinking? Was it not caused by something (that being God) external?


(2) While it is true that much can be learned by looking back at church history, it is also important to remember the early church fathers did not have good understanding of doctrine. When we study the church fathers, it's a good idea to look at how they interpret other doctrines, and not only baptism.

Take Ignatius for instance. He believed that baptism washed away sin, but he also believed the eucharist to be the medicine of immortality, and that the bread is the literal flesh of Christ, and the drink His literal blood. This was not uncommon at that time.

If you really want to understand the early church fathers or desert fathers, start a thread in contro and I'd be glad to explain to you what they meant. I've studied them extensively. I agree with Ignatius on the "medicine of immortality", we sing a hymn with those words. He means it as literal as Christ did. :cool:


Let me ask you a question. If it is true that Spirit baptism comes through water baptism then why did Christ send Paul to preach the gospel instead of baptizing? Paul gives us the answer, because the preaching of the cross, not baptizing is the power of God unto salvation, just like it was for both myself and Eric.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

You may want to reread those verses. "are saved" is past tense. And he isn't saying that he would not baptize someone.

John146
Oct 24th 2008, 09:21 PM
Q: How were OT saints saved and why would the manner in which they are saved be any different than the manner in which we are saved?

A: Because we are under a Different testament... we have different laws and practices. if we did the same things they did in the OT why wouldn't we offer sacrifice and watch what we eat such as pork etc... Are you suggesting they were saved by doing the works of the law? No one is saved apart from repentance and faith. Read Romans 4. Abraham was justified by faith and not by works of the law.


Q: Why were people getting water baptized before Christ died then? Did they need to get baptized again after He died?

A: You had Johns baptism of Repentance however once Christ died you had the baptism of Father Son and Holy Spirit. Acts 19:1-7 show that 12 men where re-baptized in the name of Christ that only knew the Baptism of John... so yes ppl was re-baptized.The baptism of John was a baptism of repentance and unto believing in the one who would come after him (Acts 19:4). They were only baptized again because they didn't even understand why they were baptized before. It is never said that all the people who were baptized before Christ's death had to be baptized again. Many of them did know why they were doing it unlike the men mentioned in Acts 19.


Q: How can something physical wash away what is spiritual?

A: Not sure how it works... just like God choose the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe(active obedience) it. Kind of Like Naaman in 2 Kings 5 thought dipping seven times was foolish however he did it and it worked... same thing... God says in his inspired word Acts 22:16 that, thats what it does... so who am I to question it.Acts 22:16 doesn't say that the water itself is what washes away the sins. That isn't possible. The Holy Spirit does that.


Q: Were Cornelius and those in his house happy before or after they were baptized in water?

A: Its not recorded I don't think they had time because Peter ordered them to be baptized into Christ(water baptism) right after it happened.It is recorded that they were speaking in tongues and magnifying God before they were baptized in water. If that isn't showing happiness then I don't know what is.

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Statement: I don't see that there was necessarily an urgency to do so as much as a case of there not really being any reason to put it off until later since they were by water already, anyway. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be water baptized.

Not the case Granted the story of Phillip in Acts 8 sure there was water one the side of the road... however looks at Acts 16... why go in the middle of the night that same hour... why not wait till morning or when your near water? Or in the other examples such as Acts 10 why did command it and have them be baptized right after it happened why not wait till later...I could also ask "why wait til later"? These questions don't prove anything one way or another. I'm not seeing that they were telling them to get baptized right away so that they would be saved. Again, Cornelius and his household already received the Spirit before being baptized in water. You're trying to say that it can't happen until afterwards.


Q: I'm just saying it's a symbolic ritual to represent the spiritual baptism that takes place inside of us. If it was necessary for salvation then why did Cornelius and others in his house receive the Spirit even before they were baptized in water?

A: If its symbolic and to show others its an outside thing... why do it on the side of the road when no one is there? Why do it in the middle of th night without other members of the church present? No one saw this sign except the person being baptized and the one doing it... afterwards how would anyone know... water dries up... As for Cornlius I think I covered that pretty well earlier if you read my earlier post I showed by book chapter and verse that it was to prove to Peter and the Jews present that Gentiles could be saved... because before that event the gospel was preached to the Jews only.Yes, I read that and I don't find your argument to be convincing at all.


Q: What about the case where someone privately repents and puts their faith and trust in Christ but they are not near water and they die before they can get someone to baptize them. Are you going to tell me that person was not saved?

A: I don't know... I'm not the judge however a verse that I think of is Matt 7:21-23 we see those who believed in Christ and obviously did some kind of works in his name are cast aside because they didn't do what they was ask... or did what wasn't ask of them... wither way they practiced lawlessness thus forfeiting their salvation...Come on. We're not talking about someone who purposely put off getting baptized. We're talking about someone who was not able to be baptized right away and died before they had a chance. You're trying to tell me that person would not be saved? I think that is ridiculous.

RogerW
Oct 24th 2008, 10:35 PM
RogerW,

Thanks for answering my questions. Let me ask a few followup questions just to make sure I understand your position.

I asked:

1. If it is an act of faithfulness and obedience, to whom is being faithful in obedience when Baptism is administered?
And you replied the following (cause I'm mainly asking about Infant Baptism)

If it is the baptism of an infant or child, it is the faithuflness and obedience of believing parents obeying the Lord's command.

That'sabout what I expected you'd say So let me ask you another.

1a) When Jesus Gave the Great Commission, do you believe he was commanding the Disciples to go into all the world to make "students"/"disciples" of all nations? Or do you believe that the intent was to evangelize and bring many unto salvation through Christ which consequently would then make them a disciple?

That may seem like an odd question, but if you believe the first, that the intent was to get many to hear the word, then that would seem to explain the Covenantal Theological view of why you feel Baptism should perhaps not come after a profession of faith. I'm inclined against that belief, but it certainly would perhaps explain your position to me better.

Greetings Veretax,

The great commission instructs us to go into all the world and preach the gospel, teaching repentance and remission of sins, and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Where do we baptize those who profess belief? Most often this is done in the church. So we have those who profess faith through hearing the gospel, repent of their sins, are baptized, and become disciples.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lu 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.



Then later I asked:
3. If it is meant as a sign, to whom is it intended, is it God, God's People/Children, or the Unsaved/Unchurched? The sign of baptism is administered to all who profess faith and also to whole households of believers.

3a) As in1a, do you feel that if anyone in the household professes faith, that all in the household should be baptized, whether or not they also accept the same and profess faith? Secondly, if the answer is yes, then You believe that even young children, who do not yet understand the Gospel, (nor could they at their young age), that they should be baptized anyways?

Scripture clearly shows us whole household baptisms based on a profession of faith of only one. Consider for instance the household of Lydia:

Ac 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Ac 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Why would baptism be denied to the household of this woman of faith? Water baptism simply identified Lydia and her household as becoming part of the covenant body (church members) outwardly. Of course Lydia would want her whole family to be baptized, because now they too can be under the hearing of the gospel of salvation. Who knows if through the hearing, like Lydia, the Lord may open their hearts? God can give salvation to whosoever He wills. Even tiny infants, still in their mother's womb's (John the Baptist) can be saved. For salvation is of the Lord!



then I asked

6. (Other than what was mentioned in 4) What was anointing oil used for in reference to individuals (there appear to be at least 2 if not 3 things) (not temple/tabernacle preparation?), what did it symbolize? I believe anointing one with oil is a means of setting them apart, or concecrating them unto service for the Lord.

6a) If anointing with oil sets those who were anointed apart (Kings, Prophets, Judges, etc.) do you believe that water baptism is in essence like that oil that is used and thus sets those apart? (I realize this question may not make sense, but I'm trying to get an understanding for why you feel that water baptism should set folks apart.)

Anoiting of oil seems to be limited to certain individuals for a certain function. Baptism signifies being in the covenant outwardly. Those who are baptized, whether those who profess faith, or infants and young children who have no faith can belong to God's covenant body (external church) without ever belonging to God's Eternal Covenant Bride. Baptism simply shows that we have come under the ordinances that God has established for His church in time. Submitting to these ordinances is of great benefit, because it is to His church in the world that God has entrusted His Written Word, His Holy Spirit, His chosen apostles, preachers, teachers, elders etc. in other words all His blessings are bestowed upon His faithful church in the world. I emphasize FAITHFUL!



Then I asked:

7. When Jesus said not to forbid the children did he ask the disciples to compel the children to come (Yes or No)? Christ took it upon Himself to bless the children. Mr 10:16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. Also, are there any references of Jesus or the Disciples baptizing infants? That depends on whether or not one believes every whole household baptized had no infants. I would argue that some of those household examples of baptism certainly included at least some infants, but it really is not relevant to prove or disprove this point, for whole households included every member of the family and extended family living in these households. All were baptized upon the profession of one.

7a) Do you believe those Children came to Jesus of their own will?

7b) So by the profession of one, the entire household would be baptized? Where is that doctrine specified, can you give me some verses.

7a - No, they would have been brought to Christ, most likely by their parents. 7b - I've already showed you Lydia, see also 1Co 1:16



Then:

8. If a parent is having their child baptized, is that obedience translated to the child which cannot exercise its own will (Yes or No)? The parent is faithfully submitting to the command, and clinging to the promise that the promise is unto believers and their children. They cannot believe unless they "hear", and they cannot "hear" unless the parent is faithful.

So if the parent has the Child Baptized, you are saying its so they can hear the word.

8a) Does Baptism of children asked for by a parent bring that child to salvation? Does it bring them into the body of Christ? Is it necessary to bring them into fellowship with the church?

8b) Does the lack of Baptism anywhere in scripture prevent those who have not been born of a parent who has professed faith, and been baptized from finding salvation, joining the body of Christ, or the Church? If not, as I expect that is your answer, then upon profession does such a person need to be baptized, and if so could you explain why?

8a - No. Yes, outwardly, not eternally; i.e. it brings them into His covenant church in the world. The church in the world represents the kingdom of God on earth, in time. It is necessary to be obedient to the Lord's command, and bring them into His covenant body (church).

8b - No. Yes, in obedience to the Lord's command.



Then:

9. For Circumcision who explicitly required that the entire household's male population be circumcised? The Lord.

9a) If it was the Lord who explicitly required all born in a household that were male to be circumcized. Do you believe Baptism replaced circumcision as the symbol of being part of his church?

9b) Where is the doctrine preached by Jesus, Paul, or one of the other apostles, in the NT, where it is the duty of parents or the duty of the church to have their entire household baptized by the "profession" of one. (I'm tending to believe the one is usually the head of the household, but that's not necessary for this question.)

9a - Yes.
9b - See above re: household baptisms



Then:

10. John's Baptism was always accompanied by repentance. If as with all Washings in the OT that sin was repented/confessed, is this not the same with Baptism in Christ? How then is this accomplished via this other baptism? Obedience to the law was never a means of salvation, but rather to show our sins, and point us to the Savior, Christ. The same is true of water baptism, it points us to the true washing of regeneration through the Spirit. Whole households are baptized through faith and repentance of only one. In the OT father's and husbands offered sacrafices for the whole family. To enter the kingdom of God one must be born again of the Spirit. The re-birth or Spiritual cleansing can only be done of the Lord by grace through faith.

10a) So you agree that washing in baptism symbolizes inward cleansing, Is that Correct? If so, does it actually cause cleansing, or is it just a ritual?

10b) If it does not cause cleansing, but does symbolize it, how profitable is this symbol to a child who was baptized who was to young to remember the baptism? Even better, how is it profitable to a child who has not yet professed a faith, or understood what repentance or sin are yet?

10a - It is a sign or symbol pointing to the washing or cleansing of regeneration by the Spirit. Washing the flesh outwardly cannot cleanse inwardly.

10b - The baptism is only symbolic, the true cleansing comes from the Spirit in regeneration. What advantage has the child? What advantage was there for those coming into covenant through the sign of circumcision in the OT? See Ro 3



11 was tricky so I'll reword it:

11. In the Acts, which comes first hearing of the word, repentance and belief, or baptism? Not exactly certain what you want here.

11a) Do you believe a person has to be baptized before they can be saved?
11b) Do you believe a person must hear the word before they can be saved?
11c) Do you believe a person must put their faith in Christ before they can be saved?

11d) Of 11a, 11b, and 11c, which of the three must come before you can be saved? Must they hear first and be baptized, and then put their faith in Christ to be saved? (In other words must all three happen for a person to become saved?) If not, which of the three must happen to be saved?

11a - No
11b - Faith comes by hearing the Word is the primary means of salvation, however, we do find with the example of John the Baptist that even infants can be saved. But, I would say John is the exception and not the rule.
11c- "Their faith" no! Faith yes! The gift of faith is given us by grace, it is not our own, and this is the reason that even infants can be saved.
11d - I believe we are drawn by God to the Word (Jo 6:44). We hear the gospel of salvation, not through physical ears, but supernaturally through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. After hearing we are convicted of our sins, repent and turn to the Lord that we might have eternal life. Unless the Holy Spirit first do a work in us to open our ears to hear, and soften our hearts to receive we cannot come to the Lord for life, because we are Spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins, and in bondage to Satan, sin and death. Salvation is of the Lord...none of us, all of Him!



One new question

13. If as I suspect you believe that salvation comes by hearing of the word and then putting your faith in Christ, that baptism is not necessary to be saved, why then should we baptize those who have not yet reached a point where they have professed belief in Christ, and thus lead them to a false sense of security that because their parent, guardian were saved, or because they were baptized as a child, that they are saved? Is there not an inherent danger in misleading those little ones of whom the Lord has entrusted to us to make sure they hear the word?

Because God is very serious about His covenant. Consider what He says of those who do not receive the covenant sign of circumcision in the OT.

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Scripture has convinced me that God is not pleased with those who esteem His covenant sign an insignificant thing. Consider how God was ready to kill Moses because he had neglected to circumcise his son.

Ex 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Ex 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
Ex 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

It would be misleading, and in fact has been misleading for those who teach salvation of infants through baptism. True Covenant Theology along with God fearing parents, while claiming God's promise that salvation is unto us and our children, don't take for granted that our children are saved through administration of the covenant sign. We take seriously the responsibility God has given us to train up our children in the ways of the Lord, teaching them to fear the Lord with reverance and awe. And we do not turn away from disciplining our children when they wander too far away. It is our constant prayer that our children too will someday show their love for the Lord through a profession of faith. We take nothing for granted, for we know that many covenant children have wondered far from the covenant body, and turned away through temptations coming from the world, the flesh and Satan.



I'm really interested in what else you have to say, because as you may be aware, I grew up in a reformed Church. (Presbyterian Church in America to be exact). I was baptized as an infant, later professed belief, (because I do believe), and then when I got out on my own, came to the conclusion that my baptism as an infant was in error. Now, I am not trying to discourage your belief here. It has been almost ten years since I felt strong conviction about it and took the step to be baptized by immersion long after I was saved, but I've been out of Reformed circles for nearly that long, and have family who are still attending a similar church. I am interested in knowing, so I can better relate with them, should this topic come up.

From experience I know that many churches call themselves Reformed, or Covenantal, but in fact don't really know what that means. I don't know if you were in a Reformed Church that simply did not teach true Covenant Theology or if you simply did not understand. But I have the exact opposite story from yours. My first church experience was in a free will Baptist church. I learned about the gospel in this church, but as I began to study the Word for myself I began to see many contradictions in the Word with what they taught. After my searching I finally found that I was not alone and aligned with Covenant Reformed Theology, or Sovereign Grace Doctrine. All the apparent contradictions disappeared, so I could never return to the other.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 24th 2008, 10:53 PM
Roger, I agree that the Holy Spirit is the one who baptizes us int o Christ. My contention is that this happens through water baptism. That is why we are water baptized. Peter say it perfectly.

1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV ) 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:





He says they were saved by water, this is water baptism, Peter says baptism saves us. However He says it is not the water. It is the answer of a good conscience towards God. In other words God meets us in the water, He answers the question in the water. We have to come through the water.




Greetings Butch,

We can't simply stop reading at "water." The next verse explains what the water represents.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"Like figure" means antitype, representative, counterpart. In other words the water that saved Noah and his family represents, symbolizes or points to the true Holy Spirit baptism that saves. Water baptism may make the filth of our flesh appear clean, but Holy Spirit baptism that water points to, gives us a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Here is another verse with the same meaning. It shows a little better how one thing "holy places made with hands" represent something else.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 24th 2008, 11:00 PM
Baptism is how we accept the gospel. If we believe and repent and are baptized the Scriptures say we will receive the Holy Spirit.

Hi Butch,

Here again, you are not reading the full verse. You want to read only "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." But what does the rest of the verse say? "but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So if we believe and we are baptized we are saved, but if we remain in unbelief what does that say about our baptism? Baptism will not save us if we are baptized in unbelief. The means of salvation is not baptism, but believing.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 24th 2008, 11:19 PM
But that isn't really what he was telling him. Read John 3:6. He clarified what He was saying. He was saying that being born of the flesh was just flesh. The flesh didn't have anything to do with being born again. It only had to do with being born of the Spirit. Notice that He didn't say that being born of water and the Spirit is spirit in John 3:6. If being born of water was a crucial component to being born again then why wouldn't He have mentioned it again in John 3:6?

If you are saying the term water is being used in a symbolic sense as spiritual water that the Spirit uses to cleanse us, I can allow for that possibility. I still think my view makes more sense, though. Either way, I am certain that He was not talking about water baptism.

Hi Eric,

I agree he is not speaking of water baptism!

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 24th 2008, 11:42 PM
Can you explain further this change, other than it being a change of mind/thinking? Was it not caused by something (that being God) external?

Greetings Teke,

The Scripture promises that faith comes by hearing the Word (Ro 10:17), and this is exactly what happened to me. I could not have heard if God had not first drawn me (Jo 6:44) to hear, and the Holy Spirit had not given me ears to hear (Jo 10). How do I know I was born again? Because for the first time in my life I desired to know the Lord, and for the first time in my life I wanted to hear His Word preached and taught, and for the first time in my life I desired to speak to Him in prayer. And for the first time in my life I wanted to be the person I now knew God wants me to be. I hated my sin for the first time ever. These are not things of the flesh, but of the Spirit.



You may want to reread those verses. "are saved" is past tense. And he isn't saying that he would not baptize someone.

The point I was making with 1Co 1:14-18 is that Paul tells us that it is not water baptism that saves us, but preaching of the cross.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 12:42 AM
There is one thing that we are forgetting about the flood I think. What was the result of the flood? Did it not wipe out all the wicked? Is that not very similar to being cleansed? So I'm not going to argue about whether water means baptism of water, or if it means inward cleansing, cause I believe the two are linked very closely together.

You are correct, the flood brought about the cleansing of the world. And yes the inward and outward are connected.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 12:53 AM
Sorry, but none of that made any sense to me. If water baptism was necessary for salvation then the thief on the cross is in big trouble, the person who repented and put their faith in Christ but died before they could be water baptized is in trouble and so on.

The thief died under the old covenant.

Veretax
Oct 25th 2008, 12:53 AM
Greetings Veretax,

The great commission instructs us to go into all the world and preach the gospel, teaching repentance and remission of sins, and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Where do we baptize those who profess belief? Most often this is done in the church. So we have those who profess faith through hearing the gospel, repent of their sins, are baptized, and become disciples.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Lu 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.



Scripture clearly shows us whole household baptisms based on a profession of faith of only one. Consider for instance the household of Lydia:

Ac 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Ac 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Why would baptism be denied to the household of this woman of faith? Water baptism simply identified Lydia and her household as becoming part of the covenant body (church members) outwardly. Of course Lydia would want her whole family to be baptized, because now they too can be under the hearing of the gospel of salvation. Who knows if through the hearing, like Lydia, the Lord may open their hearts? God can give salvation to whosoever He wills. Even tiny infants, still in their mother's womb's (John the Baptist) can be saved. For salvation is of the Lord!



Anoiting of oil seems to be limited to certain individuals for a certain function. Baptism signifies being in the covenant outwardly. Those who are baptized, whether those who profess faith, or infants and young children who have no faith can belong to God's covenant body (external church) without ever belonging to God's Eternal Covenant Bride. Baptism simply shows that we have come under the ordinances that God has established for His church in time. Submitting to these ordinances is of great benefit, because it is to His church in the world that God has entrusted His Written Word, His Holy Spirit, His chosen apostles, preachers, teachers, elders etc. in other words all His blessings are bestowed upon His faithful church in the world. I emphasize FAITHFUL!



7a - No, they would have been brought to Christ, most likely by their parents. 7b - I've already showed you Lydia, see also 1Co 1:16



8a - No. Yes, outwardly, not eternally; i.e. it brings them into His covenant church in the world. The church in the world represents the kingdom of God on earth, in time. It is necessary to be obedient to the Lord's command, and bring them into His covenant body (church).

8b - No. Yes, in obedience to the Lord's command.



9a - Yes.
9b - See above re: household baptisms



10a - It is a sign or symbol pointing to the washing or cleansing of regeneration by the Spirit. Washing the flesh outwardly cannot cleanse inwardly.

10b - The baptism is only symbolic, the true cleansing comes from the Spirit in regeneration. What advantage has the child? What advantage was there for those coming into covenant through the sign of circumcision in the OT? See Ro 3



11a - No
11b - Faith comes by hearing the Word is the primary means of salvation, however, we do find with the example of John the Baptist that even infants can be saved. But, I would say John is the exception and not the rule.
11c- "Their faith" no! Faith yes! The gift of faith is given us by grace, it is not our own, and this is the reason that even infants can be saved.
11d - I believe we are drawn by God to the Word (Jo 6:44). We hear the gospel of salvation, not through physical ears, but supernaturally through the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit. After hearing we are convicted of our sins, repent and turn to the Lord that we might have eternal life. Unless the Holy Spirit first do a work in us to open our ears to hear, and soften our hearts to receive we cannot come to the Lord for life, because we are Spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins, and in bondage to Satan, sin and death. Salvation is of the Lord...none of us, all of Him!



Because God is very serious about His covenant. Consider what He says of those who do not receive the covenant sign of circumcision in the OT.

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Scripture has convinced me that God is not pleased with those who esteem His covenant sign an insignificant thing. Consider how God was ready to kill Moses because he had neglected to circumcise his son.

Ex 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
Ex 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
Ex 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

It would be misleading, and in fact has been misleading for those who teach salvation of infants through baptism. True Covenant Theology along with God fearing parents, while claiming God's promise that salvation is unto us and our children, don't take for granted that our children are saved through administration of the covenant sign. We take seriously the responsibility God has given us to train up our children in the ways of the Lord, teaching them to fear the Lord with reverance and awe. And we do not turn away from disciplining our children when they wander too far away. It is our constant prayer that our children too will someday show their love for the Lord through a profession of faith. We take nothing for granted, for we know that many covenant children have wondered far from the covenant body, and turned away through temptations coming from the world, the flesh and Satan.



From experience I know that many churches call themselves Reformed, or Covenantal, but in fact don't really know what that means. I don't know if you were in a Reformed Church that simply did not teach true Covenant Theology or if you simply did not understand. But I have the exact opposite story from yours. My first church experience was in a free will Baptist church. I learned about the gospel in this church, but as I began to study the Word for myself I began to see many contradictions in the Word with what they taught. After my searching I finally found that I was not alone and aligned with Covenant Reformed Theology, or Sovereign Grace Doctrine. All the apparent contradictions disappeared, so I could never return to the other.

Many Blessings,
RW


RogerW, its getting a bit late here, and I'm not in a frame of mind to really respond well to what you have said, so I'll ponder what you've said and reply when I am in a better frame of mind. However, I will say, that many of the things you've said were exactly the same sort of reasons, that I once saw as being the correct interpretation of scripture, yet my understanding of scripture has changed in the last 12 years as I have read more.

For one thing, I don't believe that the OT and NT were totally different. I think all people through out time were saved by the same prescription, and that being faith in God. However, I need to let my mind settle from a long day I'll respond better maybe next week when I have more time.

Sorry for not saying more right now, my mind just is not there tonight. It feels like mush actually :/

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 01:02 AM
Because I know I was changed on the inside. I looked at things differently after that day. God gave me a new outlook on life and I knew the Spirit was dwelling in me. Are you going to deny that Cornelius and the others in his household received the Spirit before they were baptized in water? It says so right there in Acts 10.

No, I am not going to deny Cornelius received the Spirit first, but that has been explained already. As mentioned, there are two instances mentioned in the Scriptures of receiving the Spirit first. There are thousands of instances of receiving the Spirit the normal way, the way Peter states. I can't say what happened to you personally, all I can say is what the Scriptures say, and they say Water baptism comes before the Spirit.

Look at Act 2 the Jews asked Peter what they must do to be saved and He told them repent and be baptized and you will receive the holy Spirit. Peter is telling them how to be saved.
In the account of Cornelius in Acts 10 Peter is preaching to them and before He finishes God sends the Spirit. Didi Peter do anything different? He was preaching the same message, it was God who decided to send the Spirit first.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 01:04 AM
But that isn't really what he was telling him. Read John 3:6. He clarified what He was saying. He was saying that being born of the flesh was just flesh. The flesh didn't have anything to do with being born again. It only had to do with being born of the Spirit. Notice that He didn't say that being born of water and the Spirit is spirit in John 3:6. If being born of water was a crucial component to being born again then why wouldn't He have mentioned it again in John 3:6?

If you are saying the term water is being used in a symbolic sense as spiritual water that the Spirit uses to cleanse us, I can allow for that possibility. I still think my view makes more sense, though. Either way, I am certain that He was not talking about water baptism.

How are you certain?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 01:06 AM
The word "through" can have a much different meaning than the word "by". I can accept the word being translated as "through".

I believe you're denying the obvious here. Were they really saved by the water? Absolutely not. They were saved by the ark by making it through the water without drowning in the water like everyone else. How could the water that drowned and killed everyone but Noah and his family be seen as having somehow saved Noah and his family? That makes absolutely no sense.

What floated the ark?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 01:09 AM
I have studied this issue in depth so you can keep your needless insults to yourself. I believe He refers back to both verses 4 and 5. I believe that since He knew that Nicodemus was kind of dense about the issue, He knew He had to reiterate and clarify what He was saying and clarify it more than once in order for Nicodemus to understand.

I didn't insult you John, it was question. I know you said you believe He refers back to verse 5, I was asking how you determined that verse 6 referred back to verse 5 and not verse 4?

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 01:38 AM
RogerW, its getting a bit late here, and I'm not in a frame of mind to really respond well to what you have said, so I'll ponder what you've said and reply when I am in a better frame of mind. However, I will say, that many of the things you've said were exactly the same sort of reasons, that I once saw as being the correct interpretation of scripture, yet my understanding of scripture has changed in the last 12 years as I have read more.

For one thing, I don't believe that the OT and NT were totally different. I think all people through out time were saved by the same prescription, and that being faith in God. However, I need to let my mind settle from a long day I'll respond better maybe next week when I have more time.

Sorry for not saying more right now, my mind just is not there tonight. It feels like mush actually :/

Not a problem Veretax I look forward to your reply when you have time. One thing though, I too believe in covenantal continuity between the OT and NT, and that all people are saved in the same way, by grace through faith. For now get some rest, we'll talk again soon.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 01:59 AM
Greetings Butch,

Eric makes two very good points. (1) I too, like Eric knew I had been born again through the Spirit before I was baptized. I became saved when I heard the gospel of my salvation through the power of the Word and Spirit, just as God in His Word promised. My baptism came weeks later. But, like Eric there was no doubt in my mind that I had been changed. (2) While it is true that much can be learned by looking back at church history, it is also important to remember the early church fathers did not have good understanding of doctrine. When we study the church fathers, it's a good idea to look at how they interpret other doctrines, and not only baptism.

Take Ignatius for instance. He believed that baptism washed away sin, but he also believed the eucharist to be the medicine of immortality, and that the bread is the literal flesh of Christ, and the drink His literal blood. This was not uncommon at that time.

Ignatius on baptism: “For our God Jesus Christ ... was born and baptized, that through his passion he might purify water, to the washing away of sin.” (Ephesians.)

On the eucharist: “... obeying your bishop and the presbytery with an entire affection; breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality; our antidote that we should not die, but live forever in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians.)

“I desire the bread of God which is the flesh of Jesus Christ (of the seed of David), and the drink that I long for is his blood, which is incorruptible love." (Romans.)

Justin viewed baptism as a bath of repentance and knowledge of God, through which the Spirit is imparted, a replacement for circumcision, and the doorway to the remission of sins. The eucharist is the new sacrifice foretold by Malachi. He interpreted the words “Do this” to mean “offer this.” He associated the eucharist with Christ’s passion and he believed in the Real Presence: “We do not receive these as common bread or common drink. But just as our Savior Jesus Christ was made flesh through the Word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food that has been eucharistized by the word of prayer from Him (that food which by process of assimilation nourishes our flesh and blood) is the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus.”

Tertullian argued against infant baptism. His reason was not that infant baptism is not of apostolic origin. Instead, he seems to hold that there is no forgiveness of sins committed after baptism. He argued that the unmarried should put off baptism until they marry; that single persons should delay baptism until old age; that widows and widowers should wait until they remarry or are confirmed in continence.

We get a much fuller picture of how Tertullian viewed baptism by searching the historical records to see all he had to say on the subject. Interestingly Tertullian teaches against infant baptism while stating he did this against the teaching of the apostles. When we see not only what these early church fathers believed and taught on all the doctrines of the Bible, we have better information to determine what they really understood, and then we can determine whether or not we should follow their doctrines.

Let me ask you a question. If it is true that Spirit baptism comes through water baptism then why did Christ send Paul to preach the gospel instead of baptizing? Paul gives us the answer, because the preaching of the cross, not baptizing is the power of God unto salvation, just like it was for both myself and Eric.

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Certainly if salvation came through water baptism, Christ would have instructed Paul to not only preach, but more importantly to baptize.

Many Blessings,
RW

I think you need to look at what they believed about the Eucharist. When they say the flesh and blood of Christ, they believed in the real presence not transubstantiation. The flesh and blood references in the quotes above can easily be a reference to Jesus words in John 6. I don't think Jesus though it was His flesh and blood literally. In the real presence they believed that Christ was Present in the Eucharist but not that it was His literal flesh and blood. Look at the quote that you supplied, it begins, I desire the bread of God, this is a reference to Jesus words in John 6.

As for Tertullian's about baptism, yes He did get very restrictive on baptism after He joined the Montanists. However He also said that water baptism saves.
Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ3III-2-3 Jesus Christ, are born in water,


Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 195

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life” (John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,

And notice His Scriptural support for this position, John 3:5.
I do study the Ante-Nicene on other topics, I look at their writings.

Why do you Ask why Christ didn't send Paul to baptize? You are arguing from silence. The Scriptures don't tell us why Paul was not sent to baptize, Why didn't Jesus baptize? Jesus didn't baptize yet He said,

Mark 16:15-16 ( KJV ) 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This is Mark's passage regarding the great commission, here is Matthew's

Matthew 28:17-20 ( KJV ) 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost "is" water baptism, I have not met anyone who says otherwise. In Marks account He adds Jesus' words "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved." This is speaking of the great commission, which is water baptism. So to be saved Jesus says one has to believe and be baptized, water baptized. So, if Jesus said this, that water baptism was necessary for salvation, why didn't Jesus baptize?
You asked why Paul didn't baptize, most likely because He had revelation from Christ, therefore He needed to preach and not spend all of His time baptizing. Probably the same reason Jesus didn't baptize. How much preaching of the gospel could Peter have accomplished if He had to baptize the 3000 that were saved at Pentecost. Paul did baptize some but that was not His main purpose. Many people could baptize but only the apostles had a full understanding of the gospel so they needed to be preaching and getting the churches started.

SoldierOfChrist
Oct 25th 2008, 02:13 AM
No, I am not going to deny Cornelius received the Spirit first, but that has been explained already. As mentioned, there are two instances mentioned in the Scriptures of receiving the Spirit first. There are thousands of instances of receiving the Spirit the normal way, the way Peter states. I can't say what happened to you personally, all I can say is what the Scriptures say, and they say Water baptism comes before the Spirit.

Look at Act 2 the Jews asked Peter what they must do to be saved and He told them repent and be baptized and you will receive the holy Spirit. Peter is telling them how to be saved.
In the account of Cornelius in Acts 10 Peter is preaching to them and before He finishes God sends the Spirit. Didi Peter do anything different? He was preaching the same message, it was God who decided to send the Spirit first.

I beleive you are implying the normal way of recieving the Holy Spirit is by or after water baptism? There are not thousands of instances of anyone recieving the Holy spirit this way. There is only one, when Jesus himself was baptized in water he recieved the Holy Spirit. There is not one other instance of anyone recieving the Holy because they were baptized in water.

Now if water baptism is supposed to come before spirit baptism why isn't there even one example of it in the NT?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do we know for sure Peter meant water baptism here? When Peter said this it was in the beginning of Penticost and later he corrects himself when he realizes that they were baptized in the Spirit before water.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

So does Acts 2:38 contradict Acts 8:17-19?

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

We also have the examples of being baptized in water and not receiving the spirit in the NT.

When I was baptized by man in water I got wet. Then when I was baptized in the Spirit I became a new creature. Only one of these baptism is required and only one makes you born again from above.

My two cents.

Michael

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 02:16 AM
Hi Butch,

Here again, you are not reading the full verse. You want to read only "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." But what does the rest of the verse say? "but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So if we believe and we are baptized we are saved, but if we remain in unbelief what does that say about our baptism? Baptism will not save us if we are baptized in unbelief. The means of salvation is not baptism, but believing.

Many Blessings,

RW

Roger, who would be baptized in the name of Christ if they didn't believe in Him?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 02:21 AM
Greetings Butch,

We can't simply stop reading at "water." The next verse explains what the water represents.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"Like figure" means antitype, representative, counterpart. In other words the water that saved Noah and his family represents, symbolizes or points to the true Holy Spirit baptism that saves. Water baptism may make the filth of our flesh appear clean, but Holy Spirit baptism that water points to, gives us a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Here is another verse with the same meaning. It shows a little better how one thing "holy places made with hands" represent something else.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Many Blessings,
RW

Yes the like figure, Baptism is compared to Noah being saved in the flood. The like figure where unto Baptism "does now save us." He says it is not the water that is doing it, it is the answer of a good conscience towards God. What is the answer of a good conscience towards God?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 02:30 AM
I beleive you are implying the normal way of recieving the Holy Spirit is by or after water baptism? There are not thousands of instances of anyone recieving the Holy spirit this way. There is only one, when Jesus himself was baptized in water he recieved the Holy Spirit. There is not one other instance of anyone recieving the Holy because they were baptized in water.

Now if water baptism is supposed to come before spirit baptism why isn't there even one example of it in the NT?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do we know for sure Peter meant water baptism here? When Peter said this it was in the beginning of Penticost and later he corrects himself when he realizes that they were baptized in the Spirit before water.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

So does Acts 2:38 contradict Acts 8:17-19?

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Acts 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

We also have the examples of being baptized in water and not receiving the spirit in the NT.

When I was baptized by man in water I got wet. Then when I was baptized in the Spirit I became a new creature. Only one of these baptism is required and only one makes you born again from above.

My two cents.

Michael

Michael, I don't have time to get into another discussion, If you would like to read over my posts and show how I am wrong, how my evidence in being misunderstood, please do. I have however addressed your issues. Are you claiming that those Peter preached to at Pentecost did not receive the Spirit?

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 03:02 AM
Why do you Ask why Christ didn't send Paul to baptize? You are arguing from silence. The Scriptures don't tell us why Paul was not sent to baptize, Why didn't Jesus baptize? Jesus didn't baptize yet He said,

Yes the Scripture does tell us why Paul was not sent to baptize. Because the power of God unto salvation comes through preaching the cross. Paul clearly understood that salvation comes through the Word of God, not through water baptism. And that is why his primary task was preaching!

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




Mark 16:15-16 ( KJV ) 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This is Mark's passage regarding the great commission, here is Matthew's

Matthew 28:17-20 ( KJV ) 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost "is" water baptism, I have not met anyone who says otherwise. In Marks account He adds Jesus' words "he who believes and is baptized shall be saved." This is speaking of the great commission, which is water baptism. So to be saved Jesus says one has to believe and be baptized, water baptized. So, if Jesus said this, that water baptism was necessary for salvation, why didn't Jesus baptize?

Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So if we believe and we are baptized we are saved, but if we remain in unbelief what does that say about our baptism? Baptism will not save us if we are baptized in unbelief. The means of salvation is not baptism, but believing.

Good point! Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is administered with water, plain old ordinary water. If the water had supernatural power as you insist, how could this baptism be done by any man? Only God can give the Spirit, so as Michael has said, the water man dunks us in gets us wet, but it does not give us eternal life in Christ.



You asked why Paul didn't baptize, most likely because He had revelation from Christ, therefore He needed to preach and not spend all of His time baptizing. Probably the same reason Jesus didn't baptize. How much preaching of the gospel could Peter have accomplished if He had to baptize the 3000 that were saved at Pentecost. Paul did baptize some but that was not His main purpose. Many people could baptize but only the apostles had a full understanding of the gospel so they needed to be preaching and getting the churches started.

I agree! But why is preaching necessary at all if salvation comes through water baptism. I mean they could simply say "just believe me, and come down into the water with me, and I'll save you by dipping you in the water." They wouldn't need to hear the gospel of salvation, the Word of life, the glad tidings of good news, the POWER of God unto salvation. All they would need to do is say "I believe" and get dunked, and their saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 03:06 AM
Roger, who would be baptized in the name of Christ if they didn't believe in Him?

So you believe every single person baptized in the name of Christ is saved?

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 03:10 AM
Yes the like figure, Baptism is compared to Noah being saved in the flood. The like figure where unto Baptism "does now save us." He says it is not the water that is doing it, it is the answer of a good conscience towards God. What is the answer of a good conscience towards God?

Yes, Butch. The like figure of Spirit washing (baptizing) of regneration. Their salvation by/through the water is pointing to that cleansing that is the answer of a good conscience towards God, not the putting away the filth of the flesh by/through water.

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 03:29 AM
Yes the Scripture does tell us why Paul was not sent to baptize. Because the power of God unto salvation comes through preaching the cross. Paul clearly understood that salvation comes through the Word of God, not through water baptism. And that is why his primary task was preaching!

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So if we believe and we are baptized we are saved, but if we remain in unbelief what does that say about our baptism? Baptism will not save us if we are baptized in unbelief. The means of salvation is not baptism, but believing.

Good point! Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is administered with water, plain old ordinary water. If the water had supernatural power as you insist, how could this baptism be done by any man? Only God can give the Spirit, so as Michael has said, the water man dunks us in gets us wet, but it does not give us eternal life in Christ.



I agree! But why is preaching necessary at all if salvation comes through water baptism. I mean they could simply say "just believe me, and come down into the water with me, and I'll save you by dipping you in the water." They wouldn't need to hear the gospel of salvation, the Word of life, the glad tidings of good news, the POWER of God unto salvation. All they would need to do is say "I believe" and get dunked, and their saved.

Many Blessings,
RW

No Roger, the Scripture does not tell us why Paul did not come to baptize. This is the problem, you have inferred this from the verses that you posted. What is the context of the verses you posted? Are they dealing with baptism? Please show me a verse of Scripture that states why Paul did not come to baptize.

The verses you posted speak of the gospel and the word of God, what is the Gospel and the word of God?

Roger, are you reading my posts? I never said someone could be saved without belief, belief is understood in the discussion.

Also I "NEVER" said the water had supernatural power. I have stated several times that it is what God does in the water. It is God who saves, I've made that clear from the beginning.

This conversation is getting way off course. I never said anyone could be saved by anything, without first believing. What I said was, God meets the Believer in the water. We go into the water and God washes away our sins,

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 03:31 AM
So you believe every single person baptized in the name of Christ is saved?

Blessings,
RW

No, that is not what I was saying.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 03:33 AM
Yes, Butch. The like figure of Spirit washing (baptizing) of regneration. Their salvation by/through the water is pointing to that cleansing that is the answer of a good conscience towards God, not the putting away the filth of the flesh by/through water.

Blessings,
RW

Roger, there is no mention of the Spirit here, why have you injected the Spirit here?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 25th 2008, 01:04 PM
Why do you Ask why Christ didn't send Paul to baptize? You are arguing from silence. The Scriptures don't tell us why Paul was not sent to baptize, Why didn't Jesus baptize? Jesus didn't baptize yet He said,

Mark 16:15-16 ( KJV ) 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
This is Mark's passage regarding the great commission, ....


((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 02:01 PM
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

Yes I am aware that the last 12 verses of Mark are absent from some manuscripts. However Tatian quotes them in the Diatessaron which is dated 150-160 so they were around in the very early church. They are also spoken of in the Apocrypha of the New Testament. This evidence alone with Paul's statement in Titus 3:5 regarding the bath of regeneration, IMO gives strong evidence for their inclusion.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 25th 2008, 02:07 PM
Yes I am aware that the last 12 verses of Mark are absent from some manuscripts. However Tatian quotes them in the Diatessaron which is dated 150-160 so they were around in the very early church. They are also spoken of in the Apocrypha of the New Testament. This evidence alone with Paul's statement in Titus 3:5 regarding the bath of regeneration, IMO gives strong evidence for their inclusion.
You point is fair.
I disagree on whether 150 yrs of church history and the apocrypha should be the defining authority for Biblical inclusion. Also, not to get to far off topic but those are the same texts that promise snake bite healings and etc.. surely you dont give credence to poison recovery promises like the snake handlers of West Virginia and etc..? If not why include the text at all?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 02:28 PM
You point is fair.
I disagree on whether 150 yrs of church history and the apocrypha should be the defining authority for Biblical inclusion. Also, not to get to far off topic but those are the same texts that promise snake bite healings and etc.. surely you dont give credence to poison recovery promises like the snake handlers of West Virginia and etc..? If not why include the text at all?

It's not a 150 years of church history, it is maybe 100 and if we go from John 50-60 years after the apostles. While it is possible that erroneous teach could have entered into the church during this time, I find the overwhelming support in the early church, that baptism is required, to support the teaching of the last 12 verses of Mark 16. Marks account refers to the great commission, even if we don't use this account we still have Matthews account. In Matthew's account Jesus doesn't specifically make the statement "he who believes and is baptised shall be saved...". He does state that to be made a disciple of Christ, requires one to be baptized. According to Jesus' statement in Matthew, a person must be baptized in order to be disciple. So the question becomes, can a person be saved if they are not a disciple of Christ?

My point for inclusion is drawn from the Scriptures. I mentioned Tatian and the Apocrypha to date the verses. Sorry for the confusion.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 02:33 PM
You point is fair.
I disagree on whether 150 yrs of church history and the apocrypha should be the defining authority for Biblical inclusion. Also, not to get to far off topic but those are the same texts that promise snake bite healings and etc.. surely you dont give credence to poison recovery promises like the snake handlers of West Virginia and etc..? If not why include the text at all?


Butch5---Yes I am aware that the last 12 verses of Mark are absent from some manuscripts. However Tatian quotes them in the Diatessaron which is dated 150-160 so they were around in the very early church. They are also spoken of in the Apocrypha of the New Testament. This evidence alone with Paul's statement in Titus 3:5 regarding the bath of regeneration, IMO gives strong evidence for their inclusion.

Hi DF1

I had a typo in my post that may have caused the confusion. Highlighted above is the alone, it should have read along. It is NOT the Diatessaron and the Apocrypha quotes alone.

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 02:39 PM
No Roger, the Scripture does not tell us why Paul did not come to baptize. This is the problem, you have inferred this from the verses that you posted. What is the context of the verses you posted? Are they dealing with baptism? Please show me a verse of Scripture that states why Paul did not come to baptize.

The verses you posted speak of the gospel and the word of God, what is the Gospel and the word of God?

Roger, are you reading my posts? I never said someone could be saved without belief, belief is understood in the discussion.

Also I "NEVER" said the water had supernatural power. I have stated several times that it is what God does in the water. It is God who saves, I've made that clear from the beginning.

This conversation is getting way off course. I never said anyone could be saved by anything, without first believing. What I said was, God meets the Believer in the water. We go into the water and God washes away our sins,

Greetings Butch,

Please listen to what you have just said "God meets the BELIEVER in the water. We go into the water and God washes away our sins". When a BELIEVER goes into the water to be baptized it is because he/she is already a believer. A believer is one who possesses the Holy Spirit of God, or they would not be a believer. Granted many go into the water to be baptized who claim they believe, but who in fact have never been made Spiritually alive. These are not going to be saved by going into the water.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 02:40 PM
Roger, there is no mention of the Spirit here, why have you injected the Spirit here?

Hello Butch,

Because it is Spiritual baptism/cleansing that gives one a clear conscience before God, not water baptism.

Many Blessings,
RW

Dragonfighter1
Oct 25th 2008, 02:42 PM
Hi DF1

I had a typo in my post that may have caused the confusion. Highlighted above is the alone, it should have read along. It is NOT the Diatessaron and the Apocrypha quotes alone.
Yep, I see your meaning.

I wasn't arguing the Baptism point as I am not knowledgeable enough in that area to speak, you clearly have a background that includes a great deal of learning in this area.

I was only bringing in the Mark 16 questionable verses part as I have always found it dangerous to use them for building foundations.... You reference answer was excellent and I appreciate you insight into it. Please do not think me rude. I only want to keep people(in my simple ways) from building any doctrine in that area of mark16 for their own good. Had I read more of the entire post I would have realized you were not doing that and were more robust in your foundations than I gave you credit for. Sorry about that... open mouth insert foot.. (a common mistake on these boards)

Thanks again,

DF1

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 02:54 PM
Greetings Butch,

Please listen to what you have just said "God meets the BELIEVER in the water. We go into the water and God washes away our sins". When a BELIEVER goes into the water to be baptized it is because he/she is already a believer. A believer is one who possesses the Holy Spirit of God, or they would not be a believer. Granted many go into the water to be baptized who claim they believe, but who in fact have never been made Spiritually alive. These are not going to be saved by going into the water.

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,

You said a believer is one who possesses the Holy Spirit of God. Can you show me this from Scripture? Can you show me, from Scripture that a person receives the the Spirit upon belief?

Veretax
Oct 25th 2008, 03:05 PM
Let us remember the Sower Parable:

Matthew 13:1-23
" 1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: "Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them. 8 But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

The Disciples were puzzled why he taught in parables, and when they asked Christ responded:

"11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' "

Now I find that very interesting. Why did Jesus Speak in parables? He says why. It is done to fullfill what Isaiah had written, "that hearing they would hear and not understand, and seeing they would see and not perceive". He then tells us why this is so. "for their hearts have grown dull, and their ears hard of hearing, and their eyes are closed..." What was one of the big themes of prophecy to Israel before Christ came? Was it not for them to listen, to hear, to see, and turn to God? Was it not that they not harden their hearts? Yet what was the result? Their hearts lost their ability to respond to the truth, that's why even in seeing and hearing the parables, it made no sense to them, beause if their hearts were not so hard, they would hear and see, and if they saw and heard, they would then realize their responsibility to respond to the message, and would turn, so that Jesus would heal them.

He then tells his disciples:

"16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."

The disciples hearts were not so dull, not so hard, and this is why they could see what Christ was saying. He then goes to explain the parable:

"18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." "

When people hear the word, that is the seed, that is what is supposed to be conceived in the heart, and when it is ready produce salvation, but when those who hear do not understand the devil and his angels snatches away that which was sown in the heart, that is who received on the way side. Then there are those who initially receive it with joy, but because it has no root in himself, it doesn't last long, and is extinguished when persecution or attacks arise because of the word, and such a person surely stumbles. The rest seem pretty self explanatory. There are some who receive the seed on thorny ground, and though it may grow, it can never really prosper because it is choked with the things that are already there. Then there is the fertile ground, and there it gives fruit and does so abundantly.

So what does this mean? In order to be saved the word/seed must first reach the heart, it must be planted, and when that seed begins to grow on good ground it will begin to bring forth much fruit. If we compare this to Ezekiel 36:24-28

"36:24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. "

Ezekiel is telling of a time when God would cleanse his people with clean water, that he would give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them. That he would take their heart of stone (that dull, stubborn hard heart, that is incapable of responding to him) and replace it with one of flesh (that is soft, and can now respond to him.), and then he will put His Spirit within them and cause them to walk in His statues, that they would keep His Judgments. So it is with believe. We must receive the Word of the Truth, and when it is planeted in our hearts, it can then grow, but in order for that to happen we have to be given a new heart. Which is interesting, so By grace are we saved. What is grace but unmerited favor? God shed his grace on the Cross and I believe that he gives us the new heart that can then respond to the call of His Word. How does he do it? I believe that hearing of the Word is the call, and that Call works on our Heart, and Works on our Heart, and then in that moment when we hear his Call we must then cast our belief upon him and at that moment our new heart is Given, at that very moment Salvation is born in our hearts through the working of His Word through His Spirit, and at that very moment God must put His Spirit in our Heart that we would be caused to walk in His Statutes.

So then what do we do after this Salvation has been born? We are then caused to walk in his statutes, to proclaim the name of Christ, and I believe that because his Spirit is already within us, it is because of this that Submitting to water baptism becomes a first fruit of obedience to Christ's calling. Or at least it should, not everyone gets baptized right away for reasons I'm sure that are well intentioned.

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 03:44 PM
Hi Roger,

You said a believer is one who possesses the Holy Spirit of God. Can you show me this from Scripture? Can you show me, from Scripture that a person receives the the Spirit upon belief?

Greetings Butch,

Here is one that says we hear the word of truth, then we believe, then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is our guarantee of redemption. To be sealed means to be stamped or marked for ownership by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Here also, Paul preaches Jesus Christ, and through the preaching of the Word we are established with Christ and anointed by God, and sealed, having been given the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

And here Paul says the gospel does not come in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and when we become followers of the Lord we have joy in the Holy Spirit.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

Paul speaks here of receiving the Spirit by hearing, not by water baptism.

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

To believe means to have faith, and faith comes by hearing the Word.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Oct 25th 2008, 04:04 PM
Is baptism and outward sign of an inward change or conversion?

Yes. Peter essentially explains this in his epistles in this verse.

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Stephen

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 04:06 PM
If we compare this to Ezekiel 36:24-28

"36:24
For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.

36:25
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

36:27
I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

36:28
Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. "

Ezekiel is telling of a time when God would cleanse his people with clean water, that he would give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them.

That he would take their heart of stone (that dull, stubborn hard heart, that is incapable of responding to him) and replace it with one of flesh (that is soft, and can now respond to him.), and then he will put His Spirit within them and cause them to walk in His statues, that they would keep His Judgments. So it is with believe. We must receive the Word of the Truth, and when it is planeted in our hearts, it can then grow, but in order for that to happen we have to be given a new heart. Which is interesting, so By grace are we saved. What is grace but unmerited favor? God shed his grace on the Cross and I believe that he gives us the new heart that can then respond to the call of His Word. How does he do it? I believe that hearing of the Word is the call, and that Call works on our Heart, and Works on our Heart, and then in that moment when we hear his Call we must then cast our belief upon him and at that moment our new heart is Given, at that very moment Salvation is born in our hearts through the working of His Word through His Spirit, and at that very moment God must put His Spirit in our Heart that we would be caused to walk in His Statutes.

So then what do we do after this Salvation has been born? We are then caused to walk in his statutes, to proclaim the name of Christ, and I believe that because his Spirit is already within us, it is because of this that Submitting to water baptism becomes a first fruit of obedience to Christ's calling. Or at least it should, not everyone gets baptized right away for reasons I'm sure that are well intentioned.

Greetings Veretax,

I've highlighted all the "I will's" of God from Eze 36, speaking to His covenant people. We find the same "I will" in the new covenant found in Heb 8. The point being that salvation from start to finish is of the Lord. It is true that when one makes a profession of faith, they willingly submit to the ordinance of water baptism. Since water baptism is not a requirement for salvation, but a sign of being among God's covenant people, one need not wait to make a profession of faith to enter into God's covenant body in time, or in this life. God was speaking to the whole nation in Eze 36, knowing the eternal promise to be their God, and they His people was only to the faithful remnant saved by grace through faith. We find this promise also in Jer 31:31-34.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 04:13 PM
Yes. Peter essentially explains this in his epistles in this verse.

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Stephen

Greetings Stephen,

Welcome to the discussion. Since you are joining in an on-going discussion you may have missed my reply to this passage. I'll copy and paste it here for you.

We can't simply stop reading at "water." The next verse explains what the water represents.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"Like figure" means antitype, representative, counterpart. In other words the water that saved Noah and his family represents, symbolizes or points to the true Holy Spirit baptism/cleansing that saves. Water baptism may make the filth of our flesh appear clean, but Holy Spirit baptism that water points to, gives us a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Water baptism cannot give us a good conscience toward God, which is what "like figure" means.

Here is another verse with the same meaning. It shows a little better how one thing "holy places made with hands" represent something else.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 04:25 PM
Greetings Butch,

Here is one that says we hear the word of truth, then we believe, then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is our guarantee of redemption. To be sealed means to be stamped or marked for ownership by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Here also, Paul preaches Jesus Christ, and through the preaching of the Word we are established with Christ and anointed by God, and sealed, having been given the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

And here Paul says the gospel does not come in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and when we become followers of the Lord we have joy in the Holy Spirit.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

Paul speaks here of receiving the Spirit by hearing, not by water baptism.

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

To believe means to have faith, and faith comes by hearing the Word.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Many Blessings,
RW

My first question is, which verse says that the holy Spirit is given to the believer upon belief? I don't see any. I agree we receive the Spirit after we believe, but that is no the issue, the question was what Scripture states a person receives the Spirit upon belief. Let's look at the verses you supplied.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What is the the Gospel? They received the Spirit "after" they believed the Gospel, so again, what is the Gospel?

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

What is "the Son of God, Jeuss Christ, who was preached"? Is this the Gospel?

How did God Stablish them "in Christ"?

How did God seal them?

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.


They received the word and became followers of Paul and Christ. What is "the word," is this the Gospel?

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What is the "hearing of faith"? Is this the Gospel?

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So faith comes from hearing the word of God. Is this the Gospel?

Friend of I AM
Oct 25th 2008, 04:27 PM
Greetings Stephen,

Welcome to the discussion. Since you are joining in an on-going discussion you may have missed my reply to this passage. I'll copy and paste it here for you.

We can't simply stop reading at "water." The next verse explains what the water represents.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"Like figure" means antitype, representative, counterpart. In other words the water that saved Noah and his family represents, symbolizes or points to the true Holy Spirit baptism/cleansing that saves. Water baptism may make the filth of our flesh appear clean, but Holy Spirit baptism that water points to, gives us a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Water baptism cannot give us a good conscience toward God, which is what "like figure" means.

Here is another verse with the same meaning. It shows a little better how one thing "holy places made with hands" represent something else.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Many Blessings,
RW

Hey Roger,

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. We must be careful not to convulute scripture and remember the simplicity that is in the gospel. Peter is simply making the comparison that the flood event is symbolic of the water baptism they are now doing. In both examples, he reiterrates that the water itself is not what saves, but it is instead God whom saves and creates an inward change through the resurrection.

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 04:55 PM
Hey Roger,

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. We must be careful not to convulute scripture and remember the simplicity that is in the gospel. Peter is simply making the comparison that the flood event is symbolic of the water baptism they are now doing. In both examples, he reiterrates that the water itself is not what saves, but it is instead God whom saves and creates an inward change through the resurrection.

Greetings Stephen,

Then why does he say, "not putting away the filth of the flesh" which is what literal water does? I believe "the like figure" is "the answer of a good conscience toward God," how? "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Peter is comparing the flood event, from which the eight were literally saved, to the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, to which we will be Spiritually saved. Water baptism is a symbol of "the" salvation that gives us a good conscience toward God, but the symbol is not the true.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 05:01 PM
My first question is, which verse says that the holy Spirit is given to the believer upon belief? I don't see any. I agree we receive the Spirit after we believe, but that is no the issue, the question was what Scripture states a person receives the Spirit upon belief. Let's look at the verses you supplied.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What is the the Gospel? They received the Spirit "after" they believed the Gospel, so again, what is the Gospel?

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

What is "the Son of God, Jeuss Christ, who was preached"? Is this the Gospel?

How did God Stablish them "in Christ"?

How did God seal them?

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 1:7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.


They received the word and became followers of Paul and Christ. What is "the word," is this the Gospel?

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

What is the "hearing of faith"? Is this the Gospel?

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So faith comes from hearing the word of God. Is this the Gospel?

Greetings Butch,

I could define the gospel for you, as I understand it, but I fear you will not receive it. So perhaps you could tell us what you believe the gospel of salvation is. That way we could simply say whether or not we agree, or we could try to explain to you why we might disagree.

Many Blessings,
RW

Veretax
Oct 25th 2008, 07:56 PM
Roger, right. THe more I read the more I see that God is deeply involved in the salvation process. However, I'm not sure that this has anything to do with the "covenantal" relationship you speak of. The question from that Ezekiel verse is when did the cleansing happen? did it happen before, during, or as he changed their hearts. Hrms. This is why I tend to think its a little bit of God and a Little bit of us putting our faith in him that matters.

BroRog
Oct 25th 2008, 08:24 PM
Baptism isn't necessarily a sign of anything. It's whatever you decide it will be. If you personally want it to be a sign of your inward change, then that's what it is. If you want it to be a sign of your church membership, then that's what it is. You can make it serve whatever purpose you want.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 08:33 PM
Hello Butch,

Because it is Spiritual baptism/cleansing that gives one a clear conscience before God, not water baptism.

Many Blessings,
RW

Can yo show me this from Scriture?

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 08:50 PM
Greetings Butch,

I could define the gospel for you, as I understand it, but I fear you will not receive it. So perhaps you could tell us what you believe the gospel of salvation is. That way we could simply say whether or not we agree, or we could try to explain to you why we might disagree.

Many Blessings,
RW

OK, Let me say it is not the gospel of salvation, it is the gospel of the kingdom. I don't see the gospel of salvation mentioned in the Scriptures. So, here is what I understand the gospel of the kingdom to be.


Matthew 4:23 ( KJV ) 23And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.


Matthew 9:35 ( KJV ) 35And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.


KJV Matthew 24:4-14
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8All these are the beginning of sorrows.9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Mark 1:14-15 ( KJV ) 14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

We see Jesus came preaching the kingdom of God, we are commanded to repent and believe this gospel of the kingdom. This is the gospel that the apostles preached and that we are to believe. This gospel is to go to the world as a witness to all nations, so it is to be spread to all nations. What is this gospel? This gospel is the message that Jesus gave to His disciples to take to the world. What is it?

Matthew 28:16-20 ( KJV ) 16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The gospel of the kingdom is, whatsoever Jesus taught His disciples. When we say we have faith, it is in this gospel.

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 09:11 PM
Yep, I see your meaning.

I wasn't arguing the Baptism point as I am not knowledgeable enough in that area to speak, you clearly have a background that includes a great deal of learning in this area.

I was only bringing in the Mark 16 questionable verses part as I have always found it dangerous to use them for building foundations.... You reference answer was excellent and I appreciate you insight into it. Please do not think me rude. I only want to keep people(in my simple ways) from building any doctrine in that area of mark16 for their own good. Had I read more of the entire post I would have realized you were not doing that and were more robust in your foundations than I gave you credit for. Sorry about that... open mouth insert foot.. (a common mistake on these boards)

Thanks again,

DF1

Hey, thank you. I don't form doctrine on a single verse anymore, I did that in the past any found myself in a mess. I don't accept something as doctrine unless I have substantial evidence to support it. I used to believe that baptism was just a symbol, however I came across an article in support of the position I now hold, and I was not able to argue against it. After further study I found even more support for the position.

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 09:26 PM
Roger, right. THe more I read the more I see that God is deeply involved in the salvation process. However, I'm not sure that this has anything to do with the "covenantal" relationship you speak of. The question from that Ezekiel verse is when did the cleansing happen? did it happen before, during, or as he changed their hearts. Hrms. This is why I tend to think its a little bit of God and a Little bit of us putting our faith in him that matters.

Greetings Veretax,

I agree, we must turn to Christ in faith and repentance. What we disagree on is how we are able to turn to Him in faith and repentance. If this faith were a little bit ours, then salvation is by His grace plus our work. Because Scripture shows us that faith is work. We have a work to do after we are born again, but attaining Spiritual life [believing] is the work of God.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, [B]This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 09:54 PM
Can yo show me this from Scriture?

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 25th 2008, 10:17 PM
OK, Let me say it is not the gospel of salvation, it is the gospel of the kingdom. I don't see the gospel of salvation mentioned in the Scriptures. So, here is what I understand the gospel of the kingdom to be.

Matthew 4:23 ( KJV ) 23And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35 ( KJV ) 35And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

KJV Matthew 24:4-14
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8All these are the beginning of sorrows.9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 1:14-15 ( KJV ) 14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

We see Jesus came preaching the kingdom of God, we are commanded to repent and believe this gospel of the kingdom. This is the gospel that the apostles preached and that we are to believe. This gospel is to go to the world as a witness to all nations, so it is to be spread to all nations. What is this gospel? This gospel is the message that Jesus gave to His disciples to take to the world. What is it?

Matthew 28:16-20 ( KJV ) 16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The gospel of the kingdom is, whatsoever Jesus taught His disciples. When we say we have faith, it is in this gospel.

Gospel - euaggelion from the same as 2097; a good message, i.e. the gospel:--gospel.

2097 - euaggelizo to announce good news ("evangelize") especially the gospel:--declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel).

What is this good news/good message called the gospel that we are to declare unto all the world? The promised Messiah, the Savior of man has come, and He was crucified to save His people from their sins. This is the gospel for which we preach through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit, and all who believe will be given eternal life through Him.

Lu 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Lu 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 10:21 PM
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,

OK, let's look at these.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

OK, this verse says that it is Christ that purges our conscience, it says that Christ offered Himself through the Spirit, and that He purges our conscience.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

This is how we draw near to God, having our hearts sprinkled and our bodies washed with pure water. Isn't this what Jesus said? Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit? Isn't this what Paul said? He (God) saved us through the bath of regeneration and the renewing of the holy Spirit.

But this verse does not tell us "how" our heart are sprinkled.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


How is it cleansed? "By the washing of water" by the word. What is the word? Isn't it the gospel? Doesn't the word tell us to be baptized? Isn't this verse saying the church is sanctified and cleansed with the washing of water (baptism) by the (according to) the word (gospel). If this is correct wouldn't that mean that the Spirit works through the water?

The last two verses say nothing of how the Spirit baptizes us .

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 10:24 PM
Gospel - euaggelion from the same as 2097; a good message, i.e. the gospel:--gospel.

2097 - euaggelizo to announce good news ("evangelize") especially the gospel:--declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel).

What is this good news/good message called the gospel that we are to declare unto all the world? The promised Messiah, the Savior of man has come, and He was crucified to save His people from their sins. This is the gospel for which we preach through the power of the Word and Holy Spirit, and all who believe will be given eternal life through Him.

Lu 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Lu 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Many Blessings,
RW

I agree completely with what you have posted, however you have left out a great deal of the Gospel. Look at this verse you posted.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

What did Paul determine to know, Jesus Christ "AND" him crucified. When Paul says Jesus Christ does He not mean His teachings?

Veretax
Oct 26th 2008, 01:13 AM
Greetings Veretax,

I agree, we must turn to Christ in faith and repentance. What we disagree on is how we are able to turn to Him in faith and repentance. If this faith were a little bit ours, then salvation is by His grace plus our work. Because Scripture shows us that faith is work. We have a work to do after we are born again, but attaining Spiritual life [believing] is the work of God.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, [B]This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Many Blessings,
RW


Except I disagree that the act of faith is a work. Work implies something you do right to please God, such as keeping the laws. Again I do not believe that faith is a work, nor will I believe that it is counted as a work in this instance.

livingwaters
Oct 26th 2008, 02:21 AM
Faith is not a work, it produces good works. Faith without works is dead.


James 2:20 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=James+2:20&version=9) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=James+2:26&version=9) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
There are lots of scripture about water baptism:


Matthew 28:19 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+28:19&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+28&version=9)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
John 1:28 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1:28&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1&version=9)
These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:31 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1:31&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1&version=9)
And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 3:23 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+3:23&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+3&version=9)
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Water baptizing signifies that you were buried with Christ(immersion) and resurrected with Christ(come out of the water). Therefore, you are a new creature in Christ.:hug::pp:pp

RogerW
Oct 26th 2008, 06:03 PM
Faith is not a work, it produces good works. Faith without works is dead.


James 2:20 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=James+2:20&version=9) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=James+2:26&version=9) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Greetings Livingwaters,

Yes, these two verses from James show us what vain faith is. A faith that does not work is not true saving faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

A faith that does not work cannot save, because true faith always works. Only dead faith; that is a faith professed that does not work is vain faith. If faith is not a work, then our faith is vain, because it does not work.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Was Abraham justified by works? No, he was justified by his work of faith; i.e. offering Isaac upon the altar. This shows a faith that works, and since his faith is working it continues to grow and is made perfect through works. Abraham believed [had faith] God and "it" [faith/believing] was imputed [to take an inventory] unto him for righteousness. Righteousness means to be justified before God, without guilt, declared just or innocent. Since faith is a work, and it is working in Abraham, he is declared righteous. The work of faith that produces a declaration of righteousness before God was not produced by Abraham, or his salvation would have been based upon his work of faith. The work of faith, working in Abraham comes from Christ; a gift of grace.

We are saved by grace through faith that is not of ourselves but the gift of God.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



There are lots of scripture about water baptism:


Matthew 28:19 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+28:19&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+28&version=9)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
John 1:28 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1:28&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1&version=9)
These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:31 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1:31&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+1&version=9)
And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 3:23 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+3:23&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=John+3&version=9)
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Water baptizing signifies that you were buried with Christ(immersion) and resurrected with Christ(come out of the water). Therefore, you are a new creature in Christ.:hug::pp:pp

"Signifies" is the definitive word. A sign of symbol is not the reality, the reality is cleansing, or baptism of the Holy Spirit through being born again.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Oct 26th 2008, 10:21 PM
Greetings Teke,

The Scripture promises that faith comes by hearing the Word (Ro 10:17),

Key words being "faith comes", meaning comes into action, comes alive, is lively etc. This is after the revelation and baptism and one begins to "hear" the word of scripture continually in the church.


and this is exactly what happened to me. I could not have heard if God had not first drawn me (Jo 6:44) to hear,

Right, God "drew" you by revelation. Compare it to Moses who saw the burning bush and then decided to investigate further. Then he heard God.


and the Holy Spirit had not given me ears to hear (Jo 10). How do I know I was born again? Because for the first time in my life I desired to know the Lord, and for the first time in my life I wanted to hear His Word preached and taught, and for the first time in my life I desired to speak to Him in prayer. And for the first time in my life I wanted to be the person I now knew God wants me to be. I hated my sin for the first time ever. These are not things of the flesh, but of the Spirit.


Exactly what baptism into the Body does.


The point I was making with 1Co 1:14-18 is that Paul tells us that it is not water baptism that saves us, but preaching of the cross.

Many Blessings,
RW

As I pointed out "preaching of the cross" is for those that "are saved"/have salvation in Christ. It is not received by the nonbeliever, it's "foolishness" to them. But it is part of what works our salvation according to apostolic teaching. You could compare it to the reading of the law before the people in the OT. It is continually done IOW. We just did it/listened to it, today in church again. :)

RogerW
Oct 27th 2008, 12:56 AM
Key words being "faith comes", meaning comes into action, comes alive, is lively etc. This is after the revelation and baptism and one begins to "hear" the word of scripture continually in the church.

Hi Teke,

You are adding baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. The Bible does not! Unless of course the baptism you are speaking of is Holy Spirit baptism or being born again of the Spirit.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Living faith gets its life from works, just as the body gets its life from the animating spirit.



Right, God "drew" you by revelation. Compare it to Moses who saw the burning bush and then decided to investigate further. Then he heard God.

God draws His own through various ways. In my particular case I began to feel very empty, a feeling that something was missing from my life. I had never before had any desire for church or the Bible, but for reasons I could not understand at the time I had an incredible urge to go to church, where I learned for the first time of Christ and salvation.



Exactly what baptism into the Body does.

If you are talking about being born again by the Spirit, then I would agree. If you are talking about water baptism, then I can tell you I was happy to be obedient to the Lord's command, and to be identified with His body (church), but the water did not give me spiritual life, I already had spiritual life before entering the water.



As I pointed out "preaching of the cross" is for those that "are saved"/have salvation in Christ. It is not received by the nonbeliever, it's "foolishness" to them.

So, would you then limit preaching the cross only to believers? Aren't we all foolish nonbelievers until we hear? It's a good thing the Apostles didn't preach the cross only to believers, because if they had salvation would have soon become extinct. Because there would soon be no faithful Christians to take the gospel unto the Gentile world so the power of God through preaching the cross would be cut off.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Teke
Oct 27th 2008, 03:41 PM
Hey Roger,

Hi Teke,

You are adding baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. The Bible does not! Unless of course the baptism you are speaking of is Holy Spirit baptism or being born again of the Spirit.

No, I'm not adding baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God to ALL of mankind. I am, however, adamant that the salvation outside the Body of Christ does not have the benefits of the salvation that is within the Body. There is a difference which scripture makes clear.

Every Sunday we sing Psalm 103 "Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:". :saint:



Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Living faith gets its life from works, just as the body gets its life from the animating spirit.

That "animating spirit" is God. God is life. Our bodies do have the spirit of life in them from God, or we'd be dead. However, faith is like a seed that when planted in fertile soil and cared for produces fruit. This is what baptism does.
For instance, how does a seed get life. Because it is a seed it has the possibility of producing (plant, fruit etc). But until it is placed where it can grow it doesn't.

As the Colossians verse says, "Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
A seed appears to be dead, because it's life is hidden from us.


God draws His own through various ways. In my particular case I began to feel very empty, a feeling that something was missing from my life. I had never before had any desire for church or the Bible, but for reasons I could not understand at the time I had an incredible urge to go to church, where I learned for the first time of Christ and salvation.

That just confirms what I said. You were drawn to investigate. In my own case, I didn't feel empty or lacking anything. I was quite content, complacent you might say. I was having a lovely day with my husband and children when God revealed the Son to me. Then I became discontent, feeling that there was something God wanted me to know about. So I too, having been drawn, went to investigate further.


If you are talking about being born again by the Spirit, then I would agree. If you are talking about water baptism, then I can tell you I was happy to be obedient to the Lord's command, and to be identified with His body (church), but the water did not give me spiritual life, I already had spiritual life before entering the water.

Everybody has a spiritual life, ask anyone. It may be a philosophy or just their own imagination, but they "feel" they have a spiritual life. So yes, I'd agree with you that you had a spiritual life, you just didn't have one like the one you had after baptism.


So, would you then limit preaching the cross only to believers? Aren't we all foolish nonbelievers until we hear? It's a good thing the Apostles didn't preach the cross only to believers, because if they had salvation would have soon become extinct. Because there would soon be no faithful Christians to take the gospel unto the Gentile world so the power of God through preaching the cross would be cut off.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

The gospel does not only consist of the cross, it also consists of the Incarnation, Transfiguration and Resurrection, IOW the whole story of Jesus Christ.

By your own admission, you did not seek after the things of God, which include His Son, until He had drawn you to do so.
Jesus said He would draw men (John 12:32). He also told men to go preach to those whom He would draw (IOW believers).

Non believers are those who do not want to hear anything about God. They have no interest in understanding the things of God, which is why they are not able to.

Here is more of the Corinthians passage,
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The Church is Christ. He draws men, His Body the Church baptizes them and preaches to them.
That is all there is to it. :spin:

The great love of God. Here is an OT example of God baptizing.
Eze 16:4 And [as for] thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple [thee]; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
Eze 16:5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee [when thou wast] in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee [when thou wast] in thy blood, Live.
Eze 16:7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: [thy] breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou [wast] naked and bare.
Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time [was] the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
Eze 16:9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 05:38 PM
No, I am not going to deny Cornelius received the Spirit first, but that has been explained already. As mentioned, there are two instances mentioned in the Scriptures of receiving the Spirit first. There are thousands of instances of receiving the Spirit the normal way, the way Peter states. I can't say what happened to you personally, all I can say is what the Scriptures say, and they say Water baptism comes before the Spirit.You can't just toss those exceptions aside as if they don't exist. Those instances prove that scripture does not really teach that water baptism had to come first before one would receive the Holy Spirit.


Look at Act 2 the Jews asked Peter what they must do to be saved and He told them repent and be baptized and you will receive the holy Spirit. Peter is telling them how to be saved. Clearly, it was proven later that one could receive the Spirit even before being baptized, so the reality is that repentance is crucial to salvation but water baptism is not.


In the account of Cornelius in Acts 10 Peter is preaching to them and before He finishes God sends the Spirit. Didi Peter do anything different? He was preaching the same message, it was God who decided to send the Spirit first.It was God who knew that He didn't require anyone to be water baptized before baptizing them with the Holy Spirit.

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 05:51 PM
The thief died under the old covenant.No one could be saved under the old covenant. That would have required perfectly keeping the law at all times. Only Christ did that. Even OT saints are saved under the new covenant. No one can be saved apart from repentance and faith. Were OT saints saved some other way than we are today? No. Don't you know that Jesus, before He died, said that one must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God? Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what it meant. Were people born again under different criteria before the new covenant was established than they have been since? No. OT saints are saved by faith in Christ just as we are. No one comes to the Father except through Christ (John 14:6). Do you think that doesn't apply to OT people?

1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 05:59 PM
If no OT "saints" were saved, Then why is such written:

Galatians 3:5-9
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

Romans 4:2-4
"1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."


James 2:
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

So what is the point, salvation was always by faith, and works simply were used to justify, to prove that faith.

Friend of I AM
Oct 27th 2008, 06:00 PM
You can't just toss those exceptions aside as if they don't exist. Those instances prove that scripture does not really teach that water baptism had to come first before one would receive the Holy Spirit.


What you've stated above is accurate. The Holy Spirit was present before water Baptism. King David himself exclaims to God not to take the Holy Spirit away from him in Psalm 51:11. Water baptism actually was more or less symbollic of the regeneration/cleansing of the spirit/conscience of the believer. Unfortunately baptismal regeration has definitely become one of those prevelant innaccuracies preached/practiced by many denominations nowadays.

Not saying that water baptism isn't important to our walks, but the spirit can definitely be given without having undergone any form of physical water baptism as demonstrated in the Psalm I've listed above, as well as demonstrated by the Pentecost, and with the thief on the cross.

Teke
Oct 27th 2008, 06:05 PM
I have a question for those speaking of "spirit baptism". Who is your witnesses to such a baptism?

RogerW
Oct 27th 2008, 06:09 PM
If no OT "saints" were saved, Then why is such written:

Galatians 3:5-9
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

Romans 4:2-4
"1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."


James 2:
"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

So what is the point, salvation was always by faith, and works simply were used to justify, to prove that faith.

Greetings Veretax,

But the OT saints died in faith without having received the promise of eternal life. No one dying before the cross could attain the promise until after Christ literally went to the cross in time, and ascended into heaven to prepare a place for them.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Ac 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Oct 27th 2008, 06:10 PM
I have a question for those speaking of "spirit baptism". Who is your witnesses to such a baptism?

John 7:37-39
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

There are other verses as well. Jesus represents the living water. Believers are baptised by his spirit, and thus the spirit testifies as a witness to us, as does the word of God. The water is more or less symbollic of this spiritual baptism. He did state to go and be baptized though, and he himself was baptized by John by water so I guess if you really love him you should ideally try and do what he says.

RogerW
Oct 27th 2008, 06:17 PM
I have a question for those speaking of "spirit baptism". Who is your witnesses to such a baptism?

When we believe we have the witness in ourselves, that we are children of God through His Spirit bearing witness in us.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 27th 2008, 07:10 PM
John---You can't just toss those exceptions aside as if they don't exist. Those instances prove that scripture does not really teach that water baptism had to come first before one would receive the Holy Spirit.


John I am more than willing to discuss this with you,however please use Scripture to support your position.

I am not tossing out anything. Acts 10 was done that way for a reason. If God had not poured out the Spirit prior to them being baptized, Peter probably "WOULDN'T" hove baptized them. God gave Peter a vision so that Peter would even go to hte gentiles, let alone baptize them. When Peter came to Cornelius, He still didn't realize why God had sent Him.

Acts 10:28-29 ( KJV ) 28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

He didn't know, if God hadn't given Him the vision He wouldn't even have gone. Look what Peter says,

Acts 10:34-37 ( KJV ) 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

According to Peter they already knew the gospel, obviously they believed it or they would not have sent for Peter. So, if they already knew and believed the gospel, why didn't they already have the holy Spirit??? Why did Peter an apostle have to come before the holy Spirit was sent? God was showing Peter that salvation was going to the gentiles also. Notice what Luke records,

Acts 10:44-45 ( KJV ) 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They were astonished, amazed that the holy Spirit came upon the gentiles. Notice also that as soon as Peter sees the holy Spirit fall on these gentiles, His FIRST response is to baptize them. Then after He returns to the other disciples they confront Him,

Acts 11:1-3 ( KJV ) 1And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 2And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 3Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

And what does He say?


Acts 11:14-17 ( KJV ) 14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Peter tells them, the Holy Spirit fell on them "AS ON US" at the beginning. Just as when the Holy Spirit fell on the apostles and they spoke in tongues, so at the house of Cornelius they same thing happened, the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his family and they spoke in tongues. It is essentially the gentile Pentecost. That's why Peter said the HS fell on them "AS ON US". Peter had seen thousands of people saved, however we don't see this statement after any of those salivations. How many people do you know who believe receive the Spirit and start talking in tongues? This was a special event where God did something out of the norm in order to get done what He wanted done. Because if God had not poured out the spirit first Peter probably would never have baptized Cornelius and His family.

You say I am tossing out those verses, isn't that what you are doing with the others? Look at this, the events in Acts 10 are being recorded by Luke as something that God has done. Nowhere in this passage is it stated that this is what you must do to be saved. However in Acts 2 the men after accepting Peter's message of the Gospel, ask, What shall we do? They are asking Peter, We believe what you have said, what now? And Peter tells them repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and you will receive the Holy Spirit.


John---Clearly, it was proven later that one could receive the Spirit even before being baptized, so the reality is that repentance is crucial to salvation but water baptism is not.

Only if you are willing to ignore the way God said to do it and take an instance where God acted of His own volition contrary to the way He tells us to do. Are you willing to reject what God has said because in this particular case God did it differently. God can saved someone any way He sees fit. However we can only come to Him the way He tells us.


John---It was God who knew that He didn't require anyone to be water baptized before baptizing them with the Holy Spirit.


Can you show me Scripture that states God does not require anyone to be water baptized before baptizing them with the Holy Spirit?

Butch5
Oct 27th 2008, 07:14 PM
No one could be saved under the old covenant. That would have required perfectly keeping the law at all times. Only Christ did that. Even OT saints are saved under the new covenant. No one can be saved apart from repentance and faith. Were OT saints saved some other way than we are today? No. Don't you know that Jesus, before He died, said that one must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God? Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand what it meant. Were people born again under different criteria before the new covenant was established than they have been since? No. OT saints are saved by faith in Christ just as we are. No one comes to the Father except through Christ (John 14:6). Do you think that doesn't apply to OT people?

1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

John,

I didn't say He was saved under the OT covenant, I said He died under the OT covenant. Therefore He was not required to be baptized. Baptism is required under the NT covenant.



Originally Posted by Butch5 http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1839850#post1839850)
The thief died under the old covenant.

Butch5
Oct 27th 2008, 07:17 PM
What you've stated above is accurate. The Holy Spirit was present before water Baptism. King David himself exclaims to God not to take the Holy Spirit away from him in Psalm 51:11. Water baptism actually was more or less symbollic of the regeneration/cleansing of the spirit/conscience of the believer. Unfortunately baptismal regeration has definitely become one of those prevelant innaccuracies preached/practiced by many denominations nowadays.

Not saying that water baptism isn't important to our walks, but the spirit can definitely be given without having undergone any form of physical water baptism as demonstrated in the Psalm I've listed above, as well as demonstrated by the Pentecost, and with the thief on the cross.

Can you show me one Scripture that states that baptism is symbolic?

When Naaman dipped himself in Jordan and was cleansed of Leprosy, was that symbolic? When the Israelites crossed the Red sea and the armies of Pharaoh were destroyed, was that symbolic? When Noah entered the Ark and He and his family were saved, was that symbolic? When people were healed at the pool of Bethesda, was that symbolic. When Jesus told the blind man to go and wash in the pool of Siloam, was that symbolic?

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 07:37 PM
Greetings Veretax,

But the OT saints died in faith without having received the promise of eternal life. No one dying before the cross could attain the promise until after Christ literally went to the cross in time, and ascended into heaven to prepare a place for them.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Ac 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Many Blessings,
RW


Those are good points RW. Perhaps I should rephrase. I believe their faith is that which saved them, but the hope of their faith was not fulfilled or realized until after Jesus Rose from the grave. I still believe their faith, was accounted as to righteousness and saved them though.

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 08:01 PM
John I am more than willing to discuss this with you,however please use Scripture to support your position. I always do. Is Acts 10:44-48 not scripture?


I am not tossing out anything. Acts 10 was done that way for a reason. If God had not poured out the Spirit prior to them being baptized, Peter probably "WOULDN'T" hove baptized them. God gave Peter a vision so that Peter would even go to hte gentiles, let alone baptize them. When Peter came to Cornelius, He still didn't realize why God had sent Him.

Acts 10:28-29 ( KJV ) 28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

He didn't know, if God hadn't given Him the vision He wouldn't even have gone. Look what Peter says,

Acts 10:34-37 ( KJV ) 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

According to Peter they already knew the gospel, obviously they believed it or they would not have sent for Peter. So, if they already knew and believed the gospel, why didn't they already have the holy Spirit??? Why did Peter an apostle have to come before the holy Spirit was sent? God was showing Peter that salvation was going to the gentiles also. Notice what Luke records,

Acts 10:44-45 ( KJV ) 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They were astonished, amazed that the holy Spirit came upon the gentiles. Notice also that as soon as Peter sees the holy Spirit fall on these gentiles, His FIRST response is to baptize them. Then after He returns to the other disciples they confront Him,

Acts 11:1-3 ( KJV ) 1And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 2And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 3Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

And what does He say?


Acts 11:14-17 ( KJV ) 14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Peter tells them, the Holy Spirit fell on them "AS ON US" at the beginning. Just as when the Holy Spirit fell on the apostles and they spoke in tongues, so at the house of Cornelius they same thing happened, the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his family and they spoke in tongues. It is essentially the gentile Pentecost. That's why Peter said the HS fell on them "AS ON US". Peter had seen thousands of people saved, however we don't see this statement after any of those salivations. How many people do you know who believe receive the Spirit and start talking in tongues? This was a special event where God did something out of the norm in order to get done what He wanted done. Because if God had not poured out the spirit first Peter probably would never have baptized Cornelius and His family.Say what you want, but the fact is they received the Spirit without having first been baptized in water. You can try to say that it was just an exception, but I don't buy it. I also happen to know that I was born of the Spirit well before I was ever baptized in water. If you want to doubt that, go right ahead, but I would suggest you keep that to yourself. I didn't imagine that my life was changed after surrendering my life to the Lord. That doesn't just happen. It was the Holy Spirit indwelling me and changing me on the inside. And it happened without me being baptized in water.


You say I am tossing out those verses, isn't that what you are doing with the others? Look at this, the events in Acts 10 are being recorded by Luke as something that God has done. Nowhere in this passage is it stated that this is what you must do to be saved. However in Acts 2 the men after accepting Peter's message of the Gospel, ask, What shall we do? They are asking Peter, We believe what you have said, what now? And Peter tells them repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and you will receive the Holy Spirit.It is repentance that is a crucial component that leads to salvation. You are basing an entire doctrine on your interpretation of one verse. That is not good practice. If your interpretation was accurate, then there would be no exceptions to how one is saved, yet we find them in scripture. Why do you suppose that water baptism is not mentioned in other places in relation to salvation if it was such a crucial component of it? Why did Paul say this:

1 Corinthians 1
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If water baptism was a necessary component of salvation, then Paul would have been a heretic for saying that he wasn't sent to baptize. But, of course, he wasn't a heretic. He knew that people needed to repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved. His focus was on telling people how to be saved and leading them to salvation. That's why he wasn't sent to baptize, because water baptism was not part of what saves someone.

Water baptism was originally instituted as a way for people to publicly confess their sins. It is that confession of sins that is what is really important. If you read Luke 18:9-14 you will see that the publican was justified as a result of confessing that he was a sinner and asking God for mercy. He was justified even without having been baptized in water. You want to take examples like that and act as though they are exceptions. I don't buy that.


Only if you are willing to ignore the way God said to do it and take an instance where God acted of His own volition contrary to the way He tells us to do. Are you willing to reject what God has said because in this particular case God did it differently. God can saved someone any way He sees fit. However we can only come to Him the way He tells us.I came to Him the way Jesus tells us:

Mark 1
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Can you show me Scripture that states God does not require anyone to be water baptized before baptizing them with the Holy Spirit?Acts 10:44-48, Luke 18:9-14

Did you say you believe that water baptism and the baptism of the Spirit happen at the same general time? If so, explain this passage:

Acts 9
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

John146
Oct 27th 2008, 08:03 PM
John,

I didn't say He was saved under the OT covenant, I said He died under the OT covenant. Therefore He was not required to be baptized. Baptism is required under the NT covenant.We're talking about what is required for salvation here, are we not? Everyone is saved the same way. If water baptism is required for salvation then that goes for everyone.

RogerW
Oct 27th 2008, 08:20 PM
Those are good points RW. Perhaps I should rephrase. I believe their faith is that which saved them, but the hope of their faith was not fulfilled or realized until after Jesus Rose from the grave. I still believe their faith, was accounted as to righteousness and saved them though.

Okay Veretax,

But can you tell me where their faith that was accounted as righteousness came from? Since the Bible tells us there are none righteousness, no not one, and that none seek God, also that prior to salvation we are dead (spiritually) in our trespasses and sins...can you show me Scripture to prove we have faith from within ourselves to repent and believe? Or would you agree that faith comes from an outside source and not from within?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 27th 2008, 08:29 PM
Can you show me one Scripture that states that baptism is symbolic?

When Naaman dipped himself in Jordan and was cleansed of Leprosy, was that symbolic? When the Israelites crossed the Red sea and the armies of Pharaoh were destroyed, was that symbolic? When Noah entered the Ark and He and his family were saved, was that symbolic? When people were healed at the pool of Bethesda, was that symbolic. When Jesus told the blind man to go and wash in the pool of Siloam, was that symbolic?

No, Naaman was literally, physically cleansed...not spiritually.
No, Israel's crossing of the sea literally saved them physically...not spiritually.
And Pharaoh was literally, physically destroyed.
No, Noah was literally, physically saved...not spiritually. Although Noah is named among the OT saints who died in faith looking for the promise.
No, people healed at the pool of Bethesda were literally, physically healed...not spiritually, unless they were also born again.
No, the blind man was literally, physically healed...spiritually??? Only if he had been born again.

What is the Spiritual significance of all the miracles in Scripture? Were they not to authenticate the message as well as the messenger? What Message and Messenger would need to be authenticated?

Blessings,
RW

SoldierOfChrist
Oct 27th 2008, 09:20 PM
I have a question for those speaking of "spirit baptism". Who is your witnesses to such a baptism?

A couple of my favorites:

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Michael

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 11:33 PM
Okay Veretax,

But can you tell me where their faith that was accounted as righteousness came from? Since the Bible tells us there are none righteousness, no not one, and that none seek God, also that prior to salvation we are dead (spiritually) in our trespasses and sins...can you show me Scripture to prove we have faith from within ourselves to repent and believe? Or would you agree that faith comes from an outside source and not from within?

Many Blessings,
RW


So are you saying the bible is contradicting itself? Because I cited multiple verses that said that Abraham (for example) was accounted as Righteous, before Christ ever was born of Mary? I don't understand what your saying.


Matt 13:31-32
31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

Matt 17:20-21
20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”

Luke 13:18-19
18 Then He said, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.”

Luke 18:16-17
16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”


Faith is belief in the mind and receiving in the heart.

Teke
Oct 27th 2008, 11:41 PM
John 7:37-39
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

There are other verses as well. Jesus represents the living water. Believers are baptised by his spirit, and thus the spirit testifies as a witness to us, as does the word of God. The water is more or less symbollic of this spiritual baptism. He did state to go and be baptized though, and he himself was baptized by John by water so I guess if you really love him you should ideally try and do what he says.

Hi Friend,
Those scriptures refer to the promise of Pentecost when the Spirit is poured out for the church. For other references see, Isaiah 12:3 (salvation poured out for all), Isaiah 43:20, 44:3. They do not speak of "spirit baptism".

Teke
Oct 27th 2008, 11:42 PM
When we believe we have the witness in ourselves, that we are children of God through His Spirit bearing witness in us.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Blessings,
RW

Those scriptures do not speak of "spirit baptism", and two or three persons are required for a witness. IOW you can't be a witness of yourself.
Did you understand my post to you (post 198)? No dispute about it......

Teke
Oct 27th 2008, 11:46 PM
A couple of my favorites:

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Michael

None of those verses speak of "spirit baptism" or witnesses to such. Also, we shouldn't compare the witness of baptism to that of the witness of God to His Son. There is a difference that should be noted. Jesus' witness declares His divinity, not ours, least not in the same manner.

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 12:25 AM
yet the bible speaks of the spirit of God being placed within us at salvation. Whether you call it indwelling or baptism makes no difference to me.

Teke
Oct 28th 2008, 12:37 AM
yet the bible speaks of the spirit of God being placed within us at salvation. Whether you call it indwelling or baptism makes no difference to me.

As I've previously posted, salvation was poured out for all mankind. However, the "spirit of God" would not dwell in an unclean vessel, so baptism would still be necessary.

Everyone is able to drink freely of the water of salvation. But that is not baptism.

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 12:54 AM
So are you saying the bible is contradicting itself? Because I cited multiple verses that said that Abraham (for example) was accounted as Righteous, before Christ ever was born of Mary? I don't understand what your saying.

Matt 13:31-32
31 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, 32 which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

Matt 17:20-21
20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”

Luke 13:18-19
18 Then He said, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.”

Luke 18:16-17
16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

Faith is belief in the mind and receiving in the heart.

Hi Veretax,

I have no doubt that faith begins in the mind and is received in the heart, but you did not answer my question. Have I missed Scripture that tells us that faith proceeds from spiritually dead, fallen sinners? Or does Scripture say that faith begins in us as a gift of God's grace?

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Many Blessings,
RW

Chimon
Oct 28th 2008, 01:11 AM
In my opinion, yes:

1 Peter 3 "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him."

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 03:08 AM
Hey Roger,
No, I'm not adding baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God to ALL of mankind.

Teke, this is not true. It would have been fine if you had said, "salvation is a free gift from God to ALL kinds of men (every nation, tribe, tongue). Salvation is not a free gift from God to ALL mankind, salvation is a free gift from God to ALL WHO BELIEVE. Not to all who are baptized, but to ALL who believe.



I am, however, adamant that the salvation outside the Body of Christ does not have the benefits of the salvation that is within the Body. There is a difference which scripture makes clear.

You've lost me here. I don't know what you mean by salvatio outside the body of Christ, and salvation within the body.



That "animating spirit" is God. God is life. Our bodies do have the spirit of life in them from God, or we'd be dead. However, faith is like a seed that when planted in fertile soil and cared for produces fruit. This is what baptism does.

You see no difference between our spirit and the Spirit of God? Water baptism brings one into a covenant relationship outwardly, but being born again of the Spirit brings one into the covenant of redemption eternally. It is not water baptism that causes the born again believer to produce fruit. It is called the fruit of the Spirit because it proceeds from the Spirit living in us.



For instance, how does a seed get life. Because it is a seed it has the possibility of producing (plant, fruit etc). But until it is placed where it can grow it doesn't.

As the Colossians verse says, "Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
A seed appears to be dead, because it's life is hidden from us.

The seed, that is the Word of God goes unto all the world. The heart the Word is planted in is honest and good, having heard the Word, therefore it brings forth fruit of the Spirit living within.

Lu 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Lu 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

It is Christ Who sows the good seed (Word of God) into the good ground, and those who receive the good seed are the children of the kingdom.

Mt 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one



That just confirms what I said. You were drawn to investigate. In my own case, I didn't feel empty or lacking anything. I was quite content, complacent you might say. I was having a lovely day with my husband and children when God revealed the Son to me. Then I became discontent, feeling that there was something God wanted me to know about. So I too, having been drawn, went to investigate further.

I was drawn that I might hear the gospel of Christ, the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes. No mention of baptism, I needed only to believe, and even the necessary faith to believe was given me as a gift of God's grace.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.



Everybody has a spiritual life, ask anyone. It may be a philosophy or just their own imagination, but they "feel" they have a spiritual life. So yes, I'd agree with you that you had a spiritual life, you just didn't have one like the one you had after baptism.

Everybody has a soul, psuche which is the essence of life, or the mind, and heart. This is distinguished from the immortal soul. Those who are born again have received the quickening Spirit or pneuma life that comes from God, and is immortal. This is something from outside of us and is described as a current of air, breath, or breeze. The Spiritual life I felt after being born again was not my own, but the Spirit of God living in me. I did not receive this pneuma or breath of immortal Spiritual life after baptism, I was baptized because I already possessed this new birth or new life from God.



The gospel does not only consist of the cross, it also consists of the Incarnation, Transfiguration and Resurrection, IOW the whole story of Jesus Christ.

Agreed!



By your own admission, you did not seek after the things of God, which include His Son, until He had drawn you to do so.
Jesus said He would draw men (John 12:32). He also told men to go preach to those whom He would draw (IOW believers).

Teke, we have no way of knowing who God is drawing, or who will believe through the message of the gospel. This is why the Lord tells us to go unto all the world with the message. Every man is in unbelief until they are drawn by God to hear, and given eternal life.



Non believers are those who do not want to hear anything about God. They have no interest in understanding the things of God, which is why they are not able to.

Are not all men born in Adam without any desire to hear about God, until God supernaturally enables them to hear, and believe? This assumption that we preach the good news, the message of the cross to only believers is not biblical.



Here is more of the Corinthians passage,
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Cr 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

The Church is Christ. He draws men, His Body the Church baptizes them and preaches to them.

Christ sends us out to preach the gospel. Remember He said "Go", preach unto all men and those who are called through the preaching of Christ will be saved. God draws men to hear the gospel of salvation, and after they make a profession of faith we baptize them, so that they too can become part of the covenant body. But baptism is not a requirement for salvation, (not an outward sign of an inward change) and for this reason we claim God's promise that salvation is unto us and our children and baptize our infants and children so they too can become part of His covenant body. None coming into the covenant body in this world, or in time are guaranteed salvation through baptism.

Many Blessings,
RW

seamus414
Oct 28th 2008, 12:23 PM
Is baptism and outward sign of an inward change or conversion? This question came up in another thread, because I had stated that baptism is not an outward sign of an inward change. What do I mean by such a statement? Before I answer this question I would like your input with Scripture support.

Many Blessings,
RW


Yes, baptism is an outward and physical sign of an inward and spiritual grace.

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 12:58 PM
Faith is a trait that all humans possess in some measure or another even at birth. To say that mankind does not have the ability to trust or put faith in anything is to deny God's creation of mankind in his image. I shall try to demonstrate that faith is an attribute of mankind, and not something that God has to give us for us to be saved. We already have it, had it since we were born as men. I shall do this by demonstrating that Christ's language indicates that salvation is by faith, that Paul clearly proves that the law did not justify one to salvation it was always by faith, and that Abraham as all of the OT Saints would have been justified by faith, not by the law. To start Let's look at Mark 4:35-41

Mark 4:35-41:
35 On the same day, when evening had come, He said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side.” 36 Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. 37 And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. 38 But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?” 39 Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace, be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm.
40 But He said to them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that you have no faith?”
41 And they feared exceedingly, and said to one another, “Who can this be, that even the wind and the sea obey Him!”
The word here as “no” is ouj. In the KJV it is translated as ‘not’ 1214 times, ‘no’ 136, ‘canno’t or other miscellaneous phrases less than a hundred times each. Clearly this is meant as a negation.
In this same passage Faith here is the word pivstiß, which is translated 239 times as ‘faith’, once as ‘assurance’, as ‘believe’, ‘belief’, ‘them that believe’, or ‘fidelity’ once each. This seems to be one of the words used to describe faith and has the following definition:

Definition


conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

relating to God

the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ


relating to Christ

a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God


the religious beliefs of Christians
belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


fidelity, faithfulness

the character of one who can be relied on




Now let’s look at another verse, this talks about a paralytic who is healed.

Mark 2:5
A Paralytic is Healed
1 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

It is clear from this passage that the four men had faith, Jesus Saw THEIR faith. I find it hard to believe that you think Faith only comes from God. Do you not have faith in a chair you sit in? in a Bank that you wirte your checks out of? Do you not have faith in other men? Why is it so difficult to believe that a man who is convicted by the Holy Spirit of a heavenly thing could then have faith in God? Clearly Jesus saw their faith, he saw their hearts and he had compassion and healed the men so he forgave their sins. Yet the people marveled, so Christ said is this so difficult to understand? So that you know he has the power to forgive sins, he healed the man. Clearly this was faith they had.

Next Jesus told a parable in luke about 2 debtors who had their debts forgiven:

Luke 7:50
The Parable of the Two Debtors
40 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.”
So he said, “Teacher, say it.” 41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.”

It was then at this point that Christ turned to Simon and pointed out something that was going on that apparently they did not understand either.

44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”4 9And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

This woman, came in and anointed Christ’s feet with oil and wiped it off with her hair, yet Christ said her faith has saved her. Again, it was her faith. It seems to me that if God wanted it to be clear that he gave the faith it should read, “And the Faith which the father has given unto you has saved you”, but that’s not what this text says.

In the previous passage, the word: aujtovß is a personal pronoun, it is translated ‘him’ 1947 times, ‘them’ 1148 times, ‘her’ 195 times, ‘it’ 152 times, etc. It seems pretty clear it is a personal pronoun.

Definition


himself, herself, themselves, itself
he, she, it
the same

From this passage the word: sw/vzw from which saved is translated as ‘saved’, ‘safe’, etc.

Definition


to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

one (from injury or peril)

to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue


to save in the technical biblical sense

negatively 1b


to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance



Clearly means she has been saved by her faith. There should be no doubt what Christ is saying here. Her faith has saved her. In this next passage in Mark, Jesus is awoken from his sleep while their boat was tossed in a Tempest.

Matt 8: 23-27
The Sea is Stilled
23 Now when He got into a boat, His disciples followed Him. 24 And suddenly a great tempest arose on the sea, so that the boat was covered with the waves. But He was asleep. 25 Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”
26 But He said to them, “Why are you fearful, O you of little faith?” Then He arose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm.
27 So the men marveled, saying, “Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?”

Here Christ says they have “little faith”. The word: ojligopistiva translated as ‘of little faith’ is used only five times in the bible. It means what it sounds like, of little faith, or trusting too little. Yet its different from the passage above where he said “no faith”, clearly the disciples had some faith.

There are numerous examples of this. In every instance I do not see Christ saying, and the faith which God has given you has saved you, or the faith that God has given you has healed you, and he doesn’t ask them why do they not use the faith that God has given them, no he said are ye of little faith? Faith is something we as human beings are able to demonstrate to others. To say that faith only comes from God, no Faith is the response of conscience after hearing the word of God and needing to respond to it in affirmation. That is what Faith is.
Now, to continue, I tell you that God’s righteousness is revealed through our Faith:

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
The righteousness of God apart from the Law is revealed “through faith in Jesus Christ” to all and on all who believe. 24: being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ jesus,… through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness… that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God justifies those who have faith.... (have to break this up as it is becoming lengthy)

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 01:00 PM
Now we also know from James 2 that it is a particular faith which saves. This is very important because not all faith saves.


“14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?”


Meaning it is possible to have faith, but we can have faith in many things, only that faith which produces fruit truly saves. That fruit, obviously, is the fruit of the spirit. As I said man has the concept of faith even in things which are not necessary of God: Faith in credit, Faith in Lending, faith in other men and women, faith in things, faith that on a cold snowy winter night that the car will start. All of those are examples of faith. Now, we know that sometimes a car may not start even though we have faith that it will, sometimes a chair that we’ve come to have faith in will break, sometimes people that we have faith will let us down, that does not change that we have our faith in them. To say that only God gives faith is ludicrous, simply ludicrous. Man has faith, he in his fallen condition simply has not seen or heard the word.


So what does the bible say Faith is, and how does faith in God come about?


Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”


Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”


The word of God via hearing presents the evidence of the truth, it is on that truth that we must respond to with faith in God to save us. Without hearing the word (note there is a difference between hearing and being spoken to, hearing implies someone who is listening to what you say, not just standing there waiting for you to stop talking).


The bible also teaches that without Faith in God, nothing we do can be counted as good or Righteous.


Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”


Obviously, without faith in God it is impossible to please God. This is why salvation through faith is necessary. Works alone do not justify, nor can they, without faith even our best efforts are as filthy slime to God.


James 2:26 “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”


Without faith, we cannot receive the Holy Spirit, and we cannot be saved as James says. True faith produces works and also produces fruit, without true faith we can have neither and nothing else can please God. Then Paul reminds us of how we came to salvation in Galations:


Galations 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.


Let me interrupt this for a moment. Paul says that the law does not give life, if it had truly been able to give life, then righteousness would have been by the law, but it isn’t….. the passage continues…

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”


We are justified by faith, in the OT times we were kept under guard by the law until that faith was realized in Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. The faith of the OT saints, is no different than our faith today. The only difference was the promised seed had not come. OT Saints had to cling in faith to the Promise that God would save them from their sin through the sending of the promised seed (Christ), even though the fulfillment of that promise had not yet happened. We as believers now, have seen and heard the fulfillment of the promise so to us we are not having to wait, for behold today is the day of salvation!

Also Paul had to reprove Peter and writes of it in Galatians 2:


Gal 2:14-21
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”:


Clearly, Paul understands that works of the law did not justify, it was only through faith in Jesus Christ that they were now justified. We who have faith have been crucified in Christ and it is no longer we who live, but Christ that lives within us.



Then Paul wrote the Romans about this:

Romans 4:13 -16
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all..”

The promise was not through the law but through righteousness shown by faith. It was always this way, to say that the OT saints were saved by the law is just not scriptural it was always by faith.

To summarize Gal 3:7 “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.” which is interesting, because I do believe that God has promises to the Heritage of Israel the nation, yet clearly only by faith can anyone, Israelite or not be sons of Abraham.

I’ll end this discussion with a passage from Peter’s 2nd Epistle:

2 Pet 1:5-11

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


In conclusion, I am convinced, that man has the capability of faith, has had it since birth, all that is required is to hear the Gospel, and then be convicted/convinced by it that Christ saves, at that moment Faith can then be exercised unto Salvation.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 02:48 PM
Hi Veretax,

I have no doubt that faith begins in the mind and is received in the heart, but you did not answer my question. Have I missed Scripture that tells us that faith proceeds from spiritually dead, fallen sinners? Or does Scripture say that faith begins in us as a gift of God's grace?

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Many Blessings,
RWHere is God's message for spiritually dead, fallen sinners:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

God commands spiritually dead, fallen sinners to repent and forsake their wicked ways. Why would He do that if they didn't have the ability to do so?

Regarding Hebrews 12:2, I believe you are misinterpreting the verse. It's certainly not a verse to try to use to dogmatically support a doctrine because its meaning is highly debatable. The Greek word for "author" in that verse is "archēgos" (Strong's G747) and is found in only 4 verses in scripture, one of which is obviously Hebrews 12:2. Here are the others:

Acts 3
14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15And killed the Prince (archēgos) of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince (archēgos) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain (archēgos) of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The Greek word for "finisher" is "teleiōtēs" (Strong's G5051) and Hebrews 12:2 is the only verse where that word is found. Here is Strong's definition for that word:

1) a perfector
2) one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

Another thing to point out is that the word "our" is not found in the original Greek, but was added by the translators of some English versions (not all). When you take all of this as well as the surrounding context in Hebrews 12 into account, I believe the verse is simply saying that He is the Prince of the faith (referring to Christianity in general) and He alone is the one we must look to who can keep us on the narrow path of the faith as we "run with patience the race that is set before us" (Heb 12:1).

Teke
Oct 28th 2008, 02:48 PM
Dear Roger, I would say this thread, or at least our conversation, has reached a plateau. As to go any further would entail an explanation of our eschatology, which I don't think is the intent of this thread.

However, if you would like to continue conversing on the subject, I would gladly oblige, as it is one I am passionate about. We could do so either by pm or in the Contro forum here, as it may become to controversial (in that either view may be misconstrued by some) for the regular forums and the board has restrictions on such subjects.

I will leave with some of my beliefs.
I do not believe that man is spiritually dead or came to such a state from the fall.

I do believe that salvation is for all of creation, in that salvation is by grace and grace cannot be limited except in our perception of such.
This of course is also where I see a difference in being in the Body of Christ and being outside of that body. Which is also how we perceive God, albeit in an ontological sense of experience as well. Those being outside not having the ability and benefits of those within the Body.

This all has to do with the "apokatastasis" (final restoration). My view being more in line with Gregory of Nyssa with some of Maximos the Confessor. What I term as "transfiguration by grace". And where that leaves evil in relation to mankind and angels (such as the devil), as well as evil not being everlasting.


For now, I thank you for the conversation in delving into this vast subject.

Peace be with you :hug:
Eve

Teke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:09 PM
Veretax, good posts on faith. I agree. :)
For sure Jesus came looking for faith in people. And His judgment is certain.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Indeed He looks for our faith. When He comes will He find it within us...:)

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 03:10 PM
Dear Roger, I would say this thread, or at least our conversation, has reached a plateau. As to go any further would entail an explanation of our eschatology, which I don't think is the intent of this thread.

However, if you would like to continue conversing on the subject, I would gladly oblige, as it is one I am passionate about. We could do so either by pm or in the Contro forum here, as it may become to controversial (in that either view may be misconstrued by some) for the regular forums and the board has restrictions on such subjects.

I will leave with some of my beliefs.

I do not believe that man is spiritually dead or came to such a state from the fall.

I do believe that salvation is for all of creation, in that salvation is by grace and grace cannot be limited except in our perception of such.
This of course is also where I see a difference in being in the Body of Christ and being outside of that body. Which is also how we perceive God, albeit in an ontological sense of experience as well. Those being outside not having the ability and benefits of those within the Body.

This all has to do with the "apokatastasis" (final restoration). My view being more in line with Gregory of Nyssa with some of Maximos the Confessor. What I term as "transfiguration by grace". And where that leaves evil in relation to mankind and angels (such as the devil), as well as evil not being everlasting.


For now, I thank you for the conversation in delving into this vast subject.

Peace be with you :hug:
EveSorry, but I couldn't see a statement like "I do not believe that man is spiritually dead or came to such a state from the fall." without responding. If man is not spiritually dead then please explain the following passage:

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Do you not think that being dead in trespasses and sins is to be spiritually dead? If not, please explain. We are all spiritually dead before being made spiritually alive when we are saved and born again of the Spirit.

Teke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:47 PM
Sorry, but I couldn't see a statement like "I do not believe that man is spiritually dead or came to such a state from the fall." without responding. If man is not spiritually dead then please explain the following passage:

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Do you not think that being dead in trespasses and sins is to be spiritually dead? If not, please explain. We are all spiritually dead before being made spiritually alive when we are saved and born again of the Spirit.

John, this goes along with faith and what we put our faith in. The Ephesians passages your referring to demonstrate my term "transfiguration by grace", which I will explain. But first let me refer you to Romans, which is more a doctrinal book (as more doctrine is established from Romans than the other letters) in the NT.

In Romans Paul says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly" (Rom. 5:6)

This is important in that it clarifies how we see God in Christ and what His salvific work means for us. Scripture never depicts God as God of the dead, but God of the living, meaning of all things which have life, His creation sustained by Him/Life.

Now the Ephesians verses (2:1-7) reveal two unequal kingdoms at war. Each is spiritual in nature, each stamps its image on its subjects and requires strict obedience. Yet they are opposites.

The king of the lesser realm is a created being, Satan. His dominion is "of the air" (v2), neither fully of earth nor of heaven. He is the author of "disobedience (v2), rebellion. The beginning of his rule is spiritual death (v1). The "desires" of his subjects are lustful, "of the flesh and of the mind" (v3). Their deeds are "trespasses and sins" (v1). The result of his rule is "wrath (v3), and hence eternal death.

The King of the other Kingdom is uncreated, "God" the Father (v4). His realm is the "heavenly places" (v6). He rules by "mercy" and "love' (v4). The beginning of His rule is redemption to eternal life (v5). The desires of His subjects are thankfulness and glorifying God. Their deeds are righteous, as is proper to those who reign with Christ. the result of His rule is "exceeding riches" and "kindness' (v7), and hence eternal life.

How can one get from one to kingdom to the other (v1-7)? By the unity of "grace", "faith" and "works" (v7-9). Not that these are equal, for grace is uncreated and infinite, our faith is limited and can grow, and good works flow out of authentic faith. Works cannot earn us this treasure, it is a pure gift, but those who receive this gift do good. We are not saved by good works, but "for good works" (v10).

As another poster pointed out, we are made in God's image and likeness. The image has been corrupted (hence our weakness) but not obliterated (we are not spiritually dead).

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 03:52 PM
John, this goes along with faith and what we put our faith in. The Ephesians passages your referring to demonstrate my term "transfiguration by grace", which I will explain. But first let me refer you to Romans, which is more a doctrinal book (as more doctrine is established from Romans than the other letters) in the NT.

In Romans Paul says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly" (Rom. 5:6)

This is important in that it clarifies how we see God in Christ and what His salvific work means for us. Scripture never depicts God as God of the dead, but God of the living, meaning of all things which have life, His creation sustained by Him/Life.

Now the Ephesians verses (2:1-7) reveal two unequal kingdoms at war. Each is spiritual in nature, each stamps its image on its subjects and requires strict obedience. Yet they are opposites.

The king of the lesser realm is a created being, Satan. His dominion is "of the air" (v2), neither fully of earth nor of heaven. He is the author of "disobedience (v2), rebellion. The beginning of his rule is spiritual death (v1). The "desires" of his subjects are lustful, "of the flesh and of the mind" (v3). Their deeds are "trespasses and sins" (v1). The result of his rule is "wrath (v3), and hence eternal death.

The King of the other Kingdom is uncreated, "God" the Father (v4). His realm is the "heavenly places" (v6). He rules by "mercy" and "love' (v4). The beginning of His rule is redemption to eternal life (v5). The desires of His subjects are thankfulness and glorifying God. Their deeds are righteous, as is proper to those who reign with Christ. the result of His rule is "exceeding riches" and "kindness' (v7), and hence eternal life.

How can one get from one to kingdom to the other (v1-7)? By the unity of "grace", "faith" and "works" (v7-9). Not that these are equal, for grace is uncreated and infinite, our faith is limited and can grow, and good works flow out of authentic faith. Works cannot earn us this treasure, it is a pure gift, but those who receive this gift do good. We are not saved by good works, but "for good works" (v10).

As another poster pointed out, we are made in God's image and likeness. The image has been corrupted (hence our weakness) but not obliterated (we are not spiritually dead).This isn't as complicated as you're making it out to be. Tell me why being dead in trespasses and sins is not equivalent to being spiritually dead? I'm not talking in terms of being unable to make moral or spiritual decisions. That's not what being spiritually dead means. I'm talking in terms of being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins which makes someone separate from having a personal relationship with God.

You don't seem to understand that when we're saved and born again we pass from a state of spiritual death to spiritual life. Just as Jesus describes here:

John 5
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 04:02 PM
Sorry, but I couldn't see a statement like "I do not believe that man is spiritually dead or came to such a state from the fall." without responding. If man is not spiritually dead then please explain the following passage:

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Do you not think that being dead in trespasses and sins is to be spiritually dead? If not, please explain. We are all spiritually dead before being made spiritually alive when we are saved and born again of the Spirit.


The passage is correct, before Christ came, before there was ever a sacrifice for our sins, we were dead in Sin. It was impossible to be righteous according to the law, that's why even while we were dead in Sin God Sent Christ to earth. Note that my bible version (NKJV) doesn't use the word quickened, and the greek inter linear in the first verse you cite that uses it has it essentially "inserted in brackets" Based on that that phrase may have been added to try and clarify. in the NKJV it says be made alive. How are we made alive? By the living water, of the Word, and by his Spirit that is within us.

Now, the confusion seems to be where exactly does God "make the sinner aware of his dire need for Christ." I believe the bible is plain on this though, it is through his Word.

Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Faith cmoes by haering the word of God. Plain and simple. How can we receive that which we do not know? We can't, we have to have a testimony which brings this need to our attention. Now. Consider this:

John 1: 1-7
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend F1 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+1&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=eph&NavGo=2&NavCurrentChapter=2#F1) it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

We know from the Gospel of John, that Jesus was the Word, God is the Word, therefore salvataion is by hearing the Word, meaning ... (wait for it)....salvataion is by hearing God. The testimony of John the Baptist proves that in the absence of a witness to the truth that is God, there could be none saved. It is through the words of the Alimighty that he empowers, unblinds, and enables us to then make a choice, a choice to reject, or a choice to believe. Some may think they can put off making that choice, but in reality that is still a choice to reject him at that moment of time. Only those who believe, who put their faith and Trust in Jesus who is God.

John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. It is through him that we come to the father, and through him that upon hearing his words that we can be saved. How was the world created? It was spoken into existence.

Genesis: 1

"
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was F1 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Gen+1&section=0&version=nkj&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=14&NavCurrentChapter=14#F1) on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day."


What God spoke, literally happened. God's words have power, and thus Salvataion comes from the hearing of the word... Romans 10:17 “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

Teke
Oct 28th 2008, 04:16 PM
You don't seem to understand that when we're saved and born again we pass from a state of spiritual death to spiritual life. Just as Jesus describes


I'm not complicating it, I addressed the scriptures you posted.

If by "spiritual death" you mean our mortal life I agree. We do go from mortal life (determined length of time) to everlasting life (undetermined length of time), but that is determined at the final judgment.

The John verses are Jesus explaining His relation to the Father. That "hour" is present and "now is" in that an encounter with Christ results in life or judgment as a present reality.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 04:21 PM
I'm not complicating it, I addressed the scriptures you posted.

If by "spiritual death" you mean our mortal life I agree. We do go from mortal life (determined length of time) to everlasting life (undetermined length of time), but that is determined at the final judgment.

The John verses are Jesus explaining His relation to the Father. That "hour" is present and "now is" in that an encounter with Christ results in life or judgment as a present reality.No, I'm talking about going from being spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins to spiritually alive in Christ. Don't you believe that you passed from being dead in your trespasses and sins to being alive in Christ when you were born again?

Teke
Oct 28th 2008, 04:36 PM
No, I'm talking about going from being spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

Well according to Christology that isn't possible. It would conflict with the dogma that Christ was fully human and fully God. Your view would necessitate that He was spiritually dead at birth since He was fully human.

While you might try to twist that with the Spirit, it would still come up with His humanity being something different than ours.
Theology that conflicts with dogma isn't good theology.


Don't you believe that you passed from being dead in your trespasses and sins to being alive in Christ when you were born again?

If I'm dead in sin then I'm still dead wherever I am, because I'm still a sinner.
The best way of describing dying to sin and being made alive/lively is in the baptismal model and repentance associated with Christ.

Traditional Christian teaching doesn't separate the material from the spiritual, they go together. When teachings become to "spiritual" they are gnostic.
And that is not practical to teach Jesus Christ. As we do not teach philosophy as the Greeks did.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 04:51 PM
Well according to Christology that isn't possible. It would conflict with the dogma that Christ was fully human and fully God. Your view would necessitate that He was spiritually dead at birth since He was fully human.Huh? Where in the world did this come from? I wasn't saying anything about Christ being spiritually dead. I was talking about mortal people. Sinners. Christ is God and man. He was sinless. He has no place in the discussion of whether people are spiritually dead before being made spiritually alive or not. He had no need to be made spiritually alive because He was never spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.


While you might try to twist that with the Spirit, it would still come up with His humanity being something different than ours.
Theology that conflicts with dogma isn't good theology.Try to stay on topic. You are talking about something that I said nothing about.


If I'm dead in sin then I'm still dead wherever I am, because I'm still a sinner.
The best way of describing dying to sin and being made alive/lively is in the baptismal model and repentance associated with Christ.

Traditional Christian teaching doesn't separate the material from the spiritual, they go together. When teachings become to "spiritual" they are gnostic.
And that is not practical to teach Jesus Christ. As we do not teach philosophy as the Greeks did.Ephesians 2 clearly says that we were once dead in trespasses and sins but are now quickened (made alive) together with Christ. I believe this occurs after we repent and believe. Do you not agree with what is taught in Ephesians 2? Can you tell me what denomination/religion you are part of?

Teke
Oct 28th 2008, 05:13 PM
Huh? Where in the world did this come from? I wasn't saying anything about Christ being spiritually dead. I was talking about mortal people. Sinners. Christ is God and man. He was sinless. He has no place in the discussion of whether people are spiritually dead before being made spiritually alive or not. He had no need to be made spiritually alive because He was never spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.

Try to stay on topic. You are talking about something that I said nothing about.

Ephesians 2 clearly says that we were once dead in trespasses and sins but are now quickened (made alive) together with Christ. I believe this occurs after we repent and believe. Do you not agree with what is taught in Ephesians 2? Can you tell me what denomination/religion you are part of?

On the contrary, He has everything to do with any discussion we have which pertains to Him. So I am completely on topic. Salvation is not a separate issue from Christ, it's a whole package.

And yes, I believe our faith is made lively when placed into the Body of Christ at baptism and we continue to believe by repentance in confession of sin, IOW bear our cross. However this is not a one time event in our present life. It is to the death. Christ hung on the cross until His death, and so shall we. God doesn't take us down from the cross until we are dead.

The subject of this thread is baptism. In baptism we die to sin and are resurrected to everlasting life. If I'm already dead, how do I die in baptism? You see your argument that we are spiritually dead makes no sense from more than one point of view.

To answer your question about what faith I am of, I am of the ancient faith which holds to the apostolic teachings known as Eastern Orthodox. If that is an issue, forgive me.

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 07:18 PM
Yes, baptism is an outward and physical sign of an inward and spiritual grace.

Greetings seamus,

Welcome to the discussion! I would certainly agree that water baptism could be and outward, physical sign of an inward change. After all my own baptism followed my profession of faith. However, and this is my contention...your statement is too broad, in that if it is true than every baptized person has been saved and receives eternal life. Do you believe that no baptized persons will be lost?

The broad statement is not confirmed by Scripture, for we find John telling us of those who appeared to be part of the body, but went out, proving they were never really of the body at all (1Jo 2:19). And then Christ speaks of those who have done many good deeds in the name of Christ, and yet they are workers of iniquity (Mk 7:22). Finally we also have the great many baptized by John the Baptist who later cried "crucify Him."

The biggest problems I find with the statement, "baptism is an outward sign of an inward change" (1) it may not be true, because many people receive the outward baptism who are not saved, and some receive the sign that may never become saved (2) it links the outward sign (baptism) with salvation, leaving many to believe that receiving the sign becomes necessary to be saved.

I believe that baptism is an outward sign of coming into the covenant body (church). It is a sign, like circumcision in the Old of covenantal inclusion, but not necessarily inclusion into the eternal Covenant of Redemption.

Many Blessings,
RW

seamus414
Oct 28th 2008, 08:04 PM
Greetings seamus,

Welcome to the discussion! I would certainly agree that water baptism could be and outward, physical sign of an inward change. After all my own baptism followed my profession of faith. However, and this is my contention...your statement is too broad, in that if it is true than every baptized person has been saved and receives eternal life. Do you believe that no baptized persons will be lost?

The broad statement is not confirmed by Scripture, for we find John telling us of those who appeared to be part of the body, but went out, proving they were never really of the body at all (1Jo 2:19). And then Christ speaks of those who have done many good deeds in the name of Christ, and yet they are workers of iniquity (Mk 7:22). Finally we also have the great many baptized by John the Baptist who later cried "crucify Him."

The biggest problems I find with the statement, "baptism is an outward sign of an inward change" (1) it may not be true, because many people receive the outward baptism who are not saved, and some receive the sign that may never become saved (2) it links the outward sign (baptism) with salvation, leaving many to believe that receiving the sign becomes necessary to be saved.

I believe that baptism is an outward sign of coming into the covenant body (church). It is a sign, like circumcision in the Old of covenantal inclusion, but not necessarily inclusion into the eternal Covenant of Redemption.

Many Blessings,
RW

Caveat 1: those baptized by John the Baptist did not receive Christian baptism and are largely irrelevant to a discussion of the same.

Caveat 2: you say "baptism is an outward sign of an inward change" - that is something I never said. I said baptism is an outward and physical sign of an inward and spiritual grace. There is a big difference.

I do not believe that no baptized persons will be lost. Less confusingly, baptized persons can be lost. That the inward and spiritual grace received at baptism is rejected by the recipient does not put the reality of that inward and spiritual grace in question.

The baptized person who rejects Christ is an apostate Christian.

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 08:07 PM
Faith is a trait that all humans possess in some measure or another even at birth. To say that mankind does not have the ability to trust or put faith in anything is to deny God's creation of mankind in his image. I shall try to demonstrate that faith is an attribute of mankind, and not something that God has to give us for us to be saved. We already have it, had it since we were born as men. I shall do this by demonstrating that Christ's language indicates that salvation is by faith, that Paul clearly proves that the law did not justify one to salvation it was always by faith, and that Abraham as all of the OT Saints would have been justified by faith, not by the law. To start Let's look at Mark 4:35-41

It is clear from this passage that the four men had faith, Jesus Saw THEIR faith. I find it hard to believe that you think Faith only comes from God. Do you not have faith in a chair you sit in? in a Bank that you wirte your checks out of? Do you not have faith in other men? Why is it so difficult to believe that a man who is convicted by the Holy Spirit of a heavenly thing could then have faith in God?

Greetings Veretax,

I believe we are closer in our understanding of saving faith then you seem to think. We are not speaking of just any faith, we are speaking of saving faith. Please listen to what you have said in the highlighted statement above. This is the point I have been trying to make. Saving faith in the Lord comes from conviction of the Holy Spirit, and I would add through the preaching of the gospel of salvation. If saving faith comes from conviction of the Holy Spirit how can it (saving faith) come from within us? How can it be our common variety faith, that all men have that saves us? Salvation is of the power of God working in His people.

This faith is not the kind of faith that every man has, it is supernatural faith that originates from the supernatural working of the Spirit and the Word. "Faith comes by hearing the Word."



Clearly Jesus saw their faith, he saw their hearts and he had compassion and healed the men so he forgave their sins. Yet the people marveled, so Christ said is this so difficult to understand? So that you know he has the power to forgive sins, he healed the man. Clearly this was faith they had.

Was their faith in knowing that Christ could heal, or did they have saving faith? What is the purpose for all the miracles recorded in Scripture? Did they bring their friend for physical healing, having faith Christ could heal him, or did they bring their friend for spiritual healing, having saving faith in Christ?


Why would you believe a supernatural faith given to believers is not ours to possess? The woman reminds me of Cornelius. She is a devout, religious woman who worships the True God of Israel. When she sees fulfillment of prophecy in Christ as the promised Messiah, she does not doubt, but believes. Like Cornelius, she believed God would keep His promise, now she shows her faith by demonstrating saving love for the Son. How does she believe, yet the multitude continue in unbelief? Is she better than they? Did God make her more righteous, more holy, or did God give her a supernatural faith?

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 09:20 PM
Without faith, we cannot receive the Holy Spirit, and we cannot be saved as James says. True faith produces works and also produces fruit, without true faith we can have neither and nothing else can please God. Then Paul reminds us of how we came to salvation in Galations:


We are justified by faith, in the OT times we were kept under guard by the law until that faith was realized in Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. The faith of the OT saints, is no different than our faith today. The only difference was the promised seed had not come. OT Saints had to cling in faith to the Promise that God would save them from their sin through the sending of the promised seed (Christ), even though the fulfillment of that promise had not yet happened.

Hi Veretax,

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The promise is by faith "of" Christ. Not just any faith, or our faith, but the faith "of" Christ. As you have said, before faith "of" Christ came, OT saints were kept under the law, shut up unto "the" faith which would be revealed after Christ came. The law was the teacher to bring them to Christ, that they might be justified by faith. Not their faith, but faith "of" Christ, that they might be justified by faith "in" Christ rather than believing they were justified by their faith. We have faith "in" Him, not in our faith to justify us. How can we be justified by faith in Christ, unless we understand that saving faith is of Christ? Not just faith, but "that" faith whereby we might be justified is come.




Clearly, Paul understands that works of the law did not justify, it was only through faith in Jesus Christ that they were now justified. We who have faith have been crucified in Christ and it is no longer we who live, but Christ that lives within us.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Again, Galatians 2 shows us we are justified by the faith "of" Christ when we believe "in" Jesus. Justified by His faith, believing in Him to save us, and not our faith, that we might be justified by the faith "of" Christ. If we are not justified by the faith "of" Christ, then our justification comes from our flesh. This cannot be because the flesh profits nothing.



Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

If justification is of our faith, how can it be by grace? We are saved by the same faith of Abraham, not of ourselves but a gift of God's grace.



In conclusion, I am convinced, that man has the capability of faith, has had it since birth, all that is required is to hear the Gospel, and then be convicted/convinced by it that Christ saves, at that moment Faith can then be exercised unto Salvation.

I agree! There is no doubt that all men have faith. There is also no doubt that if a man might have supernatural saving faith, which is not a natural faith originating from the flesh, then he must be convicted by the power of gospel of salvation, and the Holy Spirit. Once convicted through this supernatural power, believers will naturally excercise this faith they have received through repentance and turning to Christ for life.

Many Blessings,
RW

keck553
Oct 28th 2008, 09:25 PM
Well, I have to confess that baptism in water didn't have near the effect as the (later) baptism and circumsicion of my heart by the Holy Spirit.

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 09:35 PM
Here is God's message for spiritually dead, fallen sinners:

Isaiah 55
6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

God commands spiritually dead, fallen sinners to repent and forsake their wicked ways. Why would He do that if they didn't have the ability to do so?

Hi Eric,

I agree! God commands all men to repent and believe the gospel. It is a COMMAND! Do fallen man obey God's commands? Did the nation obey God's command? The fact that fallen man does not obey His commands doesn't mean there will not be consquences for disobedience. Man is without excuse, no man will be able to stand before God at the judgment saying, "but you gave me a command I could not obey." Man is not condemned because he does not obey God's commands. Man is condemned because he has no substitute for His disobedience/his sinfulness. Every man can and should obey God, but no fallen man will because every fallen man loves his sin more than God. Unless God makes man willing, no man will come to Christ for life.



Regarding Hebrews 12:2, I believe you are misinterpreting the verse. It's certainly not a verse to try to use to dogmatically support a doctrine because its meaning is highly debatable. The Greek word for "author" in that verse is "archēgos" (Strong's G747) and is found in only 4 verses in scripture, one of which is obviously Hebrews 12:2. Here are the others:

Acts 3
14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15And killed the Prince (archēgos) of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince (archēgos) and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain (archēgos) of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The Greek word for "finisher" is "teleiōtēs" (Strong's G5051) and Hebrews 12:2 is the only verse where that word is found. Here is Strong's definition for that word:

1) a perfector
2) one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

Another thing to point out is that the word "our" is not found in the original Greek, but was added by the translators of some English versions (not all). When you take all of this as well as the surrounding context in Hebrews 12 into account, I believe the verse is simply saying that He is the Prince of the faith (referring to Christianity in general) and He alone is the one we must look to who can keep us on the narrow path of the faith as we "run with patience the race that is set before us" (Heb 12:1).

The verse in Heb 12:2 specifies "JESUS"...the author and finisher of faith. I'm glad you noticed that "our" does not belong in the verse. This helps to confirm my point, that saving faith that Jesus authors and finishes is not ours in the sense that it is faith we naturally have.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 10:07 PM
Caveat 1: those baptized by John the Baptist did not receive Christian baptism and are largely irrelevant to a discussion of the same.

Caveat 2: you say "baptism is an outward sign of an inward change" - that is something I never said. I said baptism is an outward and physical sign of an inward and spiritual grace. There is a big difference.

Greetings seamus,

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. Its not very common to hear Christians making a distinction between the covenant of grace and the covenant of redemption (if that is what you are doing?). I too view the sacraments through grace. That is both sacraments show us the promise of the gospel of grace.



I do not believe that no baptized persons will be lost. Less confusingly, baptized persons can be lost. That the inward and spiritual grace received at baptism is rejected by the recipient does not put the reality of that inward and spiritual grace in question.

The baptized person who rejects Christ is an apostate Christian.

Now I'm confused by your answer, because here you seem to be saying that receiving grace is the same as being saved??? Or are you saying that grace can be rejected, but not salvation? How can one be an apostate Christian? We are either believers or unbelievers. This could only happen if salvation can be lost, and I believe in perserverance of the saints.

Many Blessings,
RW

Friend of I AM
Oct 28th 2008, 10:14 PM
Can you show me one Scripture that states that baptism is symbolic?

When Naaman dipped himself in Jordan and was cleansed of Leprosy, was that symbolic? When the Israelites crossed the Red sea and the armies of Pharaoh were destroyed, was that symbolic? When Noah entered the Ark and He and his family were saved, was that symbolic? When people were healed at the pool of Bethesda, was that symbolic. When Jesus told the blind man to go and wash in the pool of Siloam, was that symbolic?

1 Peter 3:20-21
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It's symbollic of washing away the old wordly man, and bringing forth the new eternal Godly man by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now at the same time, we need to take into account that Jesus did say "repent and be baptized." Thus he is kind of commanding that one should be baptized by something in a sense. I don't think that he was implying with this statement that the water baptism itself necessarily demonstrates an inner change. Still, he does lead by example by getting baptized by John..so I guess ideally one should try to follow his example. Definitely not going to hurt anyone to be baptized by water, and I think it demonstrates a step in the right direction in one's Christian walk.

God bless,

Stephen

RogerW
Oct 28th 2008, 11:43 PM
Veretax, good posts on faith. I agree. :)
For sure Jesus came looking for faith in people. And His judgment is certain.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Did Christ find saving faith, or was this a case of faith, or knowing that Christ could physically heal? And does this faith originate naturally from hearing or seeing the many miracles Christ had performed? Or is his faith supernatural saving faith? Is believing Christ can physically heal the same as believing Christ for eternal life?



Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Same question...is their faith in Christ's ability to heal or saving faith?



Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Isn't it a little odd that the diciples who are with Him day and night do not have even enough faith to know that Christ would get them safely to the other side of the sea?



Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

It was the friends who have faith that Christ can save the man with the palsy, yet Christ forgives the man with the palsy. Does that make sense? Was this paralized man forgiven based on the faith of His friends? Can our faith save others?



Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

It seems the apostles knew that increased faith comes from reliance on the One to Who gave it to begin with, and is why they ask Him to increase what they have already received of Him. Why would they need to ask Christ to increase their faith if saving faith is something that comes from ourselves?



Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Indeed He looks for our faith. When He comes will He find it within us...:)

There is no question that God will be faithful to His promises. But will His people grow weary through the manifold trials inflicted upon them, and allow their steadfast faith to fade? The danger is that his afflicted people will become discouraged; will not persevere in prayer; will not continue to have confidence in Him; and will, under heavy trials, sink into despondency.

Many Blessings,
RW

Butch5
Oct 28th 2008, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Butch5
John I am more than willing to discuss this with you,however please use Scripture to support your position.



John---I always do. Is Acts 10:44-48 not scripture?


John---Say what you want, but the fact is they received the Spirit without having first been baptized in water. You can try to say that it was just an exception, but I don't buy it. I also happen to know that I was born of the Spirit well before I was ever baptized in water. If you want to doubt that, go right ahead, but I would suggest you keep that to yourself. I didn't imagine that my life was changed after surrendering my life to the Lord. That doesn't just happen. It was the Holy Spirit indwelling me and changing me on the inside. And it happened without me being baptized in water.

Can you show another time this happened?

You would suggest I keep it to myself? I am not the one who keeps saying John, you are. I have not mentioned it. As I said before, I cannot speak for what happens to you.


John---It is repentance that is a crucial component that leads to salvation. You are basing an entire doctrine on your interpretation of one verse. That is not good practice. If your interpretation was accurate, then there would be no exceptions to how one is saved, yet we find them in scripture. Why do you suppose that water baptism is not mentioned in other places in relation to salvation if it was such a crucial component of it? Why did Paul say this:

1 Corinthians 1
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I am basing an entire doctrine on one verse??? John, I have present multiple Scriptures, I have presented grammatical evidence, I have presented evidence from the Greek language, and I have shown that it was the belief of the early church for the first 225 years. How can you say I am basing my doctrine on a single verse?

However, you have posted this passage of Scripture in support of you position that the Holy Spirit is given upon belief. This is the only passage you have put forth to support you position, I don't know if there is another. So, aren't you basing your doctrine on a single passage of Scripture?

Exceptions??? You said we get the Spirit when we believe, OK, well you have the same problem. In the verse you posted at the bottom the believers were water baptized and they had still not received the Holy Spirit, so obviously they "DIDN'T" receive the Holy Spirit when they believed.

Why do I suppose it isn't mentioned in other places? Think about this, Paul IS writing to people who are already saved. He does not have to tell them how to be saved, they are already saved, which means they are already baptized. They understood baptism when they heard and believed they gospel. The verses you posted have already been dealt with. Paul was inspired, only apostles were inspired, they didn;t have time to spent doing the baptisms. How much time do you think Peter would have had to do his work if He had to baptized the 3000 on the day of Pentecost.


John---If water baptism was a necessary component of salvation, then Paul would have been a heretic for saying that he wasn't sent to baptize. But, of course, he wasn't a heretic. He knew that people needed to repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved. His focus was on telling people how to be saved and leading them to salvation. That's why he wasn't sent to baptize, because water baptism was not part of what saves someone.


No, that would not make Paul a heretic, because He was not sent to do the baptizing.


John---Water baptism was originally instituted as a way for people to publicly confess their sins. It is that confession of sins that is what is really important. If you read Luke 18:9-14 you will see that the publican was justified as a result of confessing that he was a sinner and asking God for mercy. He was justified even without having been baptized in water. You want to take examples like that and act as though they are exceptions. I don't buy that.

If water baptism is to publicly confess sins, why did the Eunich get baptized in the middle of nowhere, instead of waiting till He got to a large city? If it is for public confession, why did Paul baptize Cornelius and his household during the night when no one would see?
About the publican, the Scripture says he went away justified, it doesn't sat he went away saved. Jesus was contrasting the attitudes of the two men. One was self righteous and the other was not.


John---I came to Him the way Jesus tells us:

Mark 1
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


You are 100% correct, repent and believe the GOSPEL, what is the gospel, it is the gospel of the kingdom which is what Jesus preached and this gospel "INCLUDES" water baptism.


Butch5---Can you show me Scripture that states God does not require anyone to be water baptized before baptizing them with the Holy Spirit?


John---Acts 10:44-48, Luke 18:9-14

Neither of these passages states the God does not require someone to be water baptized before being baptized with the Holy Spirit. So, I repeat the question.


John---Did you say you believe that water baptism and the baptism of the Spirit happen at the same general time? If so, explain this passage:

Acts 9
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Yes I said that, what is there to explain? God does as He pleases, I said I believe they are at the same general time, this is how Jesus showed us it happens.

Butch5
Oct 29th 2008, 12:02 AM
We're talking about what is required for salvation here, are we not? Everyone is saved the same way. If water baptism is required for salvation then that goes for everyone.

It is required unnder the new covenant, which didn't begin until Christ died. The thief was saved before Christ died.