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Dragonfighter1
Oct 20th 2008, 11:35 PM
There is a verse...
I Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. ...

It seems that the christian spouse is sanctified.

The implication are multi-fold.

To be clear: God views a married couple as ONE. He does not view them as TWO. "The two shall be one flesh" no dispute there.

So if they are sanctified (Greek word means to be "HOLY") pure and etc...

What do we do with this verse? Just accept it? Twist it? Redefine it?

I mean; we can make up compelling arguments that they must personally accept Christ, but that doesn't negate the verse above, it simply ignores it.

We could say that on death they become unsanctified...but that seems a little strange...

I want to invite you all to provide thoughtful responses to one another please. Please do not quote more than 5 verses per response as we tend to get bogged down in shouting matches when that happens. Oh, and lets not accuse anyone of being ungodly for simply asking a question or making a statement. OK?

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 01:13 AM
There is a verse...
I Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. ...

It seems that the christian spouse is sanctified.

The implication are multi-fold.

To be clear: God views a married couple as ONE. He does not view them as TWO. "The two shall be one flesh" no dispute there.

So if they are sanctified (Greek word means to be "HOLY") pure and etc...

What do we do with this verse? Just accept it? Twist it? Redefine it?

I mean; we can make up compelling arguments that they must personally accept Christ, but that doesn't negate the verse above, it simply ignores it.

We could say that on death they become unsanctified...but that seems a little strange...

I want to invite you all to provide thoughtful responses to one another please. Please do not quote more than 5 verses per response as we tend to get bogged down in shouting matches when that happens. Oh, and lets not accuse anyone of being ungodly for simply asking a question or making a statement. OK?

Hi DF1,

I think it important to remember that we must harmonize all of Scripture when seeking to understand any passage. If we accept that the verse is telling us that a Christian spouse can save his/her life mate does this interpretation force contradiction upon the Word of God?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Many Blessings,
RW

Dani H
Oct 21st 2008, 01:33 AM
Sanctified means "set apart" ... not saved.

What this Scripture states is that God will deal with the couple/home based on the faith of the believing spouse, and not based on the state of the unbelieving one. The unbelieving spouse still has to come to his/her own faith in Christ.

hagiazō
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
a) consecrate things to God
b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
a) to cleanse externally
b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

It's the same principle that applied during Passover, where God spared anyone who sought refuge in a home marked by the blood of the lamb, based on the faith of those in the home who obeyed God.

That's how I see it.

Chimon
Oct 21st 2008, 01:57 AM
I will argue that this verse does not teach that unbelievers are saved by believing spouses.

Point 1: Being made holy or sanctified does not mean salvation in this context:

The Scripture does not say that an unbelieving spouse will be saved by their Christian spouse, but that they will be holy (or sanctified.) This word means 'set apart.' In what sense would they be set apart? Well, being married to a Christian, they would be set apart from the world. They would have contact with the Church, and see firsthand the transforming power of Christ in the life of their spouse. This would draw them away from the world, and towards God. So, they would begin to be set apart, or made holy. This would encourage them to turn to Christ and join their spouse in the Church. However, Paul himself says that this doesn't mean that being married to a Christian 1. brings faith in Christ or 2. causes someone to be saved without faith in Christ. In the very same paragraph Paul says, "For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" So clearly Paul is not saying that 'sanctifying' your spouse will 'save' your spouse, because Paul says that if the believers stays they will sanctify them (set them apart) but he also says they may save them. He uses different words because sanctification is not salvation, expecially in this sense.

Point 2: Peter says that wives should try to win over their husbands to the Gospel.

"Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives."

When Peter discusses this matter, he does not teach the wives will save their husband through marriage, but rather that they will win their husbands through convincing them to believe the word.

Point 3: Paul taught only one way to salvation and didn't change it:
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospeló not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

Paul strongly condemned any who purpose any other gospel than that that he taught the Galatians. And, having read Acts, Paul never mentions salvation via marriage. His words echo the words of Peter in Acts 4, "And there is salvation in no one else, [but Jesus] for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

In conclusion:
It is important to interpret the Bible as a whole, rather than verse by verse. The immediate context teaches that spouses sanctifying their unbeliving spouse does not mean salvation, and the wider context of the Bible teaches that there is no way to salvation other than faith in God.


I hope that helps and was clear. Excellent question.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 08:43 AM
Sanctified means "set apart" ... not saved.

What this Scripture states is that God will deal with the couple/home based on the faith of the believing spouse, and not based on the state of the unbelieving one. The unbelieving spouse still has to come to his/her own faith in Christ.

hagiazō
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
a) consecrate things to God
b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
a) to cleanse externally
b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

It's the same principle that applied during Passover, where God spared anyone who sought refuge in a home marked by the blood of the lamb, based on the faith of those in the home who obeyed God.

That's how I see it.
Dani, Please expand. I read your thread but am not sure you completed the entire thought. Seems like you were going to say something more and didnt quite get around to it.
My issue is that if we are one and one spuse has asked God for forgiveness, since husband and wife are one and are affected by the actions of the other that perhaps we actually are saved (unwittingly).

The cnfusion gets worse when the Christian spouse dies first!!!! LOL, since marriage is annulled at death what then?? I am not trying to be huorous about this although it is slightly funny in a wierd way. I really am looking for earnest dialog. Its easy to spout normal responses. But sometimes the truth has to be dug out.

SO dont be offended or think I have decided-I haven't. I like digging though. That way at least I know something is well and truly buried if it ever comes up (Is that an oxymoron-buried and coming up:lol:)

9Marksfan
Oct 21st 2008, 09:28 AM
Good respones from folks - it's also a moot point about the children who are seen as "holy"!

I would agree with others who have said that being sanctified does not always mean saved, but rather set apart for God's blessing and purposes. The unbelieving spouse is in a "sphere of grace" because of the believing spouse's faith (and of course the same applies to the children - there are implications here for covenant theology, but let's not go down that rabbit warren!) - but what is of interest is that Paul does not seem to include those who CHOOSE to marry non-believers, which is clearly disobedience (2 Cor 6:14 and even in the passage in question (v39b)) - but perhaps even such disobedient marriages may be included too.

Here's the issue DF1 - is faith essential for salvation or not?

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 10:41 AM
Here's the issue DF1 - is faith essential for salvation or not?

Hmmm seems like you are trying to foist me. That would be confrontational without warrant.

1./ Asking question on the fringe of common theology is not a sin.
2./ Clarifying points others have asked me during my ministry to obtain other peoples opinions is not a sin either.
3./ Much of the comments and questions I make/raise in this chat site are intended for the interest of others, to get an answer I need, to clarify a point that I think needs clarified, or finally to amplify absurdity. Is that wrong?


To answer your question above..... Yes faith is essential, HOWEVER, the point I was raising was: since God sees a man and wife as ONE, then is the faith of the wife sufficient for THE ONE unit they are. I have had more than one wife ask me that question during my ministry... and for your sake let me say I answered them substantially as everyone else did in this thread! Satisfied?

Dani H
Oct 21st 2008, 03:29 PM
Dani, Please expand. I read your thread but am not sure you completed the entire thought. Seems like you were going to say something more and didnt quite get around to it.
My issue is that if we are one and one spuse has asked God for forgiveness, since husband and wife are one and are affected by the actions of the other that perhaps we actually are saved (unwittingly).

The confusion gets worse when the Christian spouse dies first!!!! LOL, since marriage is annulled at death what then?? I am not trying to be huorous about this although it is slightly funny in a wierd way. I really am looking for earnest dialog. Its easy to spout normal responses. But sometimes the truth has to be dug out.

SO dont be offended or think I have decided-I haven't. I like digging though. That way at least I know something is well and truly buried if it ever comes up (Is that an oxymoron-buried and coming up:lol:)

You have to look at it from a covenant standpoint. To become a Christian, you have to enter into a covenant with God based on the finished work of Jesus on the cross. A marriage is also a covenant that two people enter with one another. However, an unbelieving spouse who doesn't have his/her own covenant with God, will come under covenant protection by God based on his/her spouse's covenant with the Creator. Once that unbelieving spouse breaks the marriage covenant via divorce, and walks away, they are also no longer going to come under God's covenant protection, and they are on their own from that point on, until such a time that they establish their own covenant with God. This has nothing to do with salvation, just with the "fringe benefits" of God's protection and blessing and the way He deals with the home in its entirety based on the believing spouse. Each person HAS to establish their own covenant with God when it comes time to do so. You can't ride another person's coattails when it comes to a relationship with God, because He doesn't have grandchildren, only children. You have to have your own, regardless. The Bible is very clear that every person is responsible for their own sin.

I know this because I was saved during my first marriage, and that covenant was broken and we divorced. Today, my ex-husband is as unbelieving as ever and wants nothing to do with God. He still has to find his own way in the end.

Think about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Sure it all started with God's covenant with Abraham, but once Isaac and Jacob came of age, God still made it a point to establish His covenant with each of them and re-confirm everything. It didn't just "trickle down" by default. And God was then, and still is, a covenant God.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 03:36 PM
Hmmm seems like you are trying to foist me. That would be confrontational without warrant.

1./ Asking question on the fringe of common theology is not a sin.
2./ Clarifying points others have asked me during my ministry to obtain other peoples opinions is not a sin either.
3./ Much of the comments and questions I make/raise in this chat site are intended for the interest of others, to get an answer I need, to clarify a point that I think needs clarified, or finally to amplify absurdity. Is that wrong?

To answer your question above..... Yes faith is essential, HOWEVER, the point I was raising was: since God sees a man and wife as ONE, then is the faith of the wife sufficient for THE ONE unit they are. I have had more than one wife ask me that question during my ministry... and for your sake let me say I answered them substantially as everyone else did in this thread! Satisfied?

Greetings DF1,

We could take it a bit farther and ask where saving faith comes from? Or perhaps a better question is from Whom does this faith come? Is it something from within us or something outside of us?

Many Blessings,
RW

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 04:28 PM
You have to look at it from a covenant standpoint. To become a Christian, you have to enter into a covenant with God based on the finished work of Jesus on the cross. A marriage is also a covenant that two people enter with one another. However, an unbelieving spouse who doesn't have his/her own covenant with God, will come under covenant protection by God based on his/her spouse's covenant with the Creator. Once that unbelieving spouse breaks the marriage covenant via divorce, and walks away, they are also no longer going to come under God's covenant protection, and they are on their own from that point on, until such a time that they establish their own covenant with God. This has nothing to do with salvation, just with the "fringe benefits" of God's protection and blessing and the way He deals with the home in its entirety based on the believing spouse. Each person HAS to establish their own covenant with God when it comes time to do so. You can't ride another person's coattails when it comes to a relationship with God, because He doesn't have grandchildren, only children. You have to have your own, regardless. The Bible is very clear that every person is responsible for their own sin.

I know this because I was saved during my first marriage, and that covenant was broken and we divorced. Today, my ex-husband is as unbelieving as ever and wants nothing to do with God. He still has to find his own way in the end.

Think about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Sure it all started with God's covenant with Abraham, but once Isaac and Jacob came of age, God still made it a point to establish His covenant with each of them and re-confirm everything. It didn't just "trickle down" by default. And God was then, and still is, a covenant God.

Ah yes, I see where you would think I meant that children could be grandfathered in so to speak. I didn't mean that, just my bad phraseology. Lets Leave the kids out of this discussion completely(there is a separate thread on the boards about that).
I intended my question be limited only to the issue of the oneness of a husband and wife and then the unsaved spouses death. If we are truly "one" and God says that "oneness" is "a mystery" implying some special context perhaps... There is more than protection at hand.

Part of my reason is that I see NO protection that is observable in joint or split faith marriages. We have the same divorce rate, the same drug abuse rate etc.,... so PERHAPS we should be investigating a different meaning.

I will probably end up where I always have been. Which is in the same vein as everyone else posting here. But I am enjoying asking the question and keeping an open mind because that is how one learns.

Really appreciate your input...:hug:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 21st 2008, 04:29 PM
Greetings DF1,

We could take it a bit farther and ask where saving faith comes from? Or perhaps a better question is from Whom does this faith come? Is it something from within us or something outside of us?

Many Blessings,
RW


Go for it dude! You always have something interesting to say....

kf4zmt
Oct 21st 2008, 06:13 PM
The context of the chapter is about marriage and divorce. Paul gave instructions that if an unbeliever is willing to remain married to a believer then that is just fine. He goes on to say that the unbeliever is sanctified in this relationship. Notice that one of the defintions of the word sanctify is to cleanse externally. More on this in a moment.

In contrast, Paul continues in the following verses and says if an unbeliever is such a scoundrel that they will not remain married to a righteous follower of God, then let them go. Think about the kind of person who is so wicked that they can't stand to be married to a righteous person!

I don't think the passage is teaching that the unbeliever is "saved" due to the marriage. Instead, they have chosen to remain with a person whom they know is going to follow the teachings of Christ. While they may not be a Christian themselves, they find it acceptable to associate with their Christian spouse and undoubtedly come into contact with other Christians on a frequent basis. They are "cleansed externally", if you will, in the sense that they are deciding to live in an environment where they will be exposed to the Gospel and the good influences of their spouse.

We tend to become like the people we associate with. The unbeliever (and the children) will thus be "sanctified" by choosing to remain married to a person whom they know before hand will not compromise their principles. It is no guarantee the unbelieving spouse or children will become Christians, but it certainly increases the chance that they will.

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 06:27 PM
The context of the chapter is about marriage and divorce. Paul gave instructions that if an unbeliever is willing to remain married to a believer then that is just fine. He goes on to say that the unbeliever is sanctified in this relationship. Notice that one of the defintions of the word sanctify is to cleanse externally. More on this in a moment.

In contrast, Paul continues in the following verses and says if an unbeliever is such a scoundrel that they will not remain married to a righteous follower of God, then let them go. Think about the kind of person who is so wicked that they can't stand to be married to a righteous person!

I don't think the passage is teaching that the unbeliever is "saved" due to the marriage. Instead, they have chosen to remain with a person whom they know is going to follow the teachings of Christ. While they may not be a Christian themselves, they find it acceptable to associate with their Christian spouse and undoubtedly come into contact with other Christians on a frequent basis. They are "cleansed externally", if you will, in the sense that they are deciding to live in an environment where they will be exposed to the Gospel and the good influences of their spouse.

We tend to become like the people we associate with. The unbeliever (and the children) will thus be "sanctified" by choosing to remain married to a person whom they know before hand will not compromise their principles. It is no guarantee the unbelieving spouse or children will become Christians, but it certainly increases the chance that they will.


I am attempting to put my head around this. So what you are basically saying is that the the unbelieving spouse is sanctified as far as a relationship is concerned i.e. the relationship is not considered "ungodly"?

kf4zmt
Oct 21st 2008, 06:48 PM
I would definitely say that the relationship is not ungodly. Paul himself said that if the unbeliever is willing to remain with the believer then that is what should happen. Paul gives his endorsement.

In regards to the sanctification, I'm saying that the unbelieving spouse is going to be exposed to the good influences and example of the believing spouse. It may just alter his behaviour for the better.

For example, if the unbeliever has a tendency to engage is some sinful activity, but knows the believing spouse will not consent to such behaviour and go along with him, the unbeliever may abandon the sinful activity. This doesn't make the unbeliever a Christian, but nonetheless he has altered his behaviour towards a more godly lifestyle.

Even if the unbeliever's behaviour isn't altered significantly, the unbeliever is still exposed to a godly atmosphere that surely will have some positive influence on him.

Does that answer your question?

Emanate
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:42 AM
I would definitely say that the relationship is not ungodly. Paul himself said that if the unbeliever is willing to remain with the believer then that is what should happen. Paul gives his endorsement.

In regards to the sanctification, I'm saying that the unbelieving spouse is going to be exposed to the good influences and example of the believing spouse. It may just alter his behaviour for the better.

For example, if the unbeliever has a tendency to engage is some sinful activity, but knows the believing spouse will not consent to such behaviour and go along with him, the unbeliever may abandon the sinful activity. This doesn't make the unbeliever a Christian, but nonetheless he has altered his behaviour towards a more godly lifestyle.

Even if the unbeliever's behaviour isn't altered significantly, the unbeliever is still exposed to a godly atmosphere that surely will have some positive influence on him.

Does that answer your question?


Thank you. This does answer my question. Very insightful response.

Dani H
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:54 AM
Ah yes, I see where you would think I meant that children could be grandfathered in so to speak. I didn't mean that, just my bad phraseology. Lets Leave the kids out of this discussion completely(there is a separate thread on the boards about that).
I intended my question be limited only to the issue of the oneness of a husband and wife and then the unsaved spouses death. If we are truly "one" and God says that "oneness" is "a mystery" implying some special context perhaps... There is more than protection at hand.

Part of my reason is that I see NO protection that is observable in joint or split faith marriages. We have the same divorce rate, the same drug abuse rate etc.,... so PERHAPS we should be investigating a different meaning.

I will probably end up where I always have been. Which is in the same vein as everyone else posting here. But I am enjoying asking the question and keeping an open mind because that is how one learns.

Really appreciate your input...:hug:

I mean protection by way of ... God's influence and presence is upon that home, through the believer. If, in fact, said believer actually obeys God and submits to His will. If I'm married to a person, that person is going to get prayed for, constantly. And my children, too. That means God is going to be very much involved in my home, in all aspects of it. Whether people around me realize it or not. They may even take it for granted, but that's okay. I can't do anything about decisions that others make, but I can submit our home situation to the ultimate control of my God, through prayer and intercession and surrender to His will. Of course we are going to have trials and tribulations, that's a given. There are going to be attacks from the enemy. That's a given, too. But God is here to stay. And He will have the last word, regarding any situation in our home, as long as I look to Him in the midst of everything that happens.

You can see that I'm not one of those people who think that things happen inevitably, regardless. I'm no fatalist. I believe if we want to see God's will in any situation, then we must pray and call Him onto the scene, because God isn't a bully who pushes Himself into situations uninvited. Somebody has to prepare the way of the Lord and open wide the gates so the King of glory can come in. :)

9Marksfan
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:04 PM
Hmmm seems like you are trying to foist me.

Not sure what that means in your neck of the woods, but if you mean I'm trying to get you to address the absolute core of what being saved is, then - yes!


That would be confrontational without warrant.

I don't see why you think it's confrontational and without warrant. I feel I was asking an important "bottom line" question, because you were suggesting in your OP that the fact that an unbelieving spouse is "sanctified" by a believing spouse means that all the unbeliever has to do to be saved is to marry a believer and stay married to them! So I say - isn't faith the essential key to salvation? What's confrontational about that?


1./ Asking question on the fringe of common theology is not a sin.
2./ Clarifying points others have asked me during my ministry to obtain other peoples opinions is not a sin either.
3./ Much of the comments and questions I make/raise in this chat site are intended for the interest of others, to get an answer I need, to clarify a point that I think needs clarified, or finally to amplify absurdity. Is that wrong?

Your OP and subsequent responses all imply that you are considering that an unbelieving spouse could possibly be saved WITHOUT believing but instead by being "sanctified" as a result of being married to a Christian. There are many professing Christians on this site who are married to unbelievers - as a result of your OP, they may feel that their spouse doesn't need to believe to be saved - and they'll stop praying for them and stop witnessing to them - how tragic that would be - and they could well be convinced of such a delusion unless it's made clear that faith IS essential - for all of us!

We need to be careful what we post here in terms of new threads and remember that there is a VERY mixed readership on these Forums.


To answer your question above..... Yes faith is essential, HOWEVER, the point I was raising was: since God sees a man and wife as ONE, then is the faith of the wife sufficient for THE ONE unit they are. I have had more than one wife ask me that question during my ministry... and for your sake let me say I answered them substantially as everyone else did in this thread! Satisfied?

OK - I hope others' responses here have confirmed that you need to stick to what you've been saying! :)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:14 AM
Not sure what that means in your neck of the woods, but if you mean I'm trying to get you to address the absolute core of what being saved is, then - yes!



I don't see why you think it's confrontational and without warrant. I feel I was asking an important "bottom line" question, because you were suggesting in your OP that the fact that an unbelieving spouse is "sanctified" by a believing spouse means that all the unbeliever has to do to be saved is to marry a believer and stay married to them! So I say - isn't faith the essential key to salvation? What's confrontational about that?



Your OP and subsequent responses all imply that you are considering that an unbelieving spouse could possibly be saved WITHOUT believing but instead by being "sanctified" as a result of being married to a Christian. There are many professing Christians on this site who are married to unbelievers - as a result of your OP, they may feel that their spouse doesn't need to believe to be saved - and they'll stop praying for them and stop witnessing to them - how tragic that would be - and they could well be convinced of such a delusion unless it's made clear that faith IS essential - for all of us!

We need to be careful what we post here in terms of new threads and remember that there is a VERY mixed readership on these Forums.



OK - I hope others' responses here have confirmed that you need to stick to what you've been saying! :)


Well you missed the point then.. SO rather than get into mud slinging I will respond no further.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:20 AM
I imply nothing from my questions folks. It seems some think I do.

Now, in order to get back on track..

What is the oneness if it has no special meaning in a marriage union?
If it does have a special meaning, if oneness benefits in one area 'might" it benefit in others?

I am not trying to get believing spouses to stop praying for the unsaved spouses. But I am TRYING to get a more sensible answer to the one I have been using for years. The simple answer is often the right one...BUT NOT ALWAYS! I think this may be on of those times. I see no benefit to sanctification in practical terms so I am investigating what the spiritual ramifications MIGHT be..

Anyone have any input???

BroRog
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:05 AM
I imply nothing from my questions folks. It seems some think I do.

Now, in order to get back on track..

What is the oneness if it has no special meaning in a marriage union?
If it does have a special meaning, if oneness benefits in one area 'might" it benefit in others?

I am not trying to get believing spouses to stop praying for the unsaved spouses. But I am TRYING to get a more sensible answer to the one I have been using for years. The simple answer is often the right one...BUT NOT ALWAYS! I think this may be on of those times. I see no benefit to sanctification in practical terms so I am investigating what the spiritual ramifications MIGHT be..

Anyone have any input???

The marriage union does not make two people into a single individual. It is the arena in which two people have decided to walk together through life, working together, raising children together, living together, sleeping together and sharing all things in common.

A marriage is work, which takes mutual commitment from two individuals, who agree to live and work in tandem. Each person made a voluntary and informed decision to become life partners, which requires two people of conscience to find a way to unify their goals, aspirations, dreams, and values, such that each person is allowed to maintain their dignity as a human being made in the image of God.

To this end, a man would not ask his wife to do anything against her own conscience. He would not force her to violate her moral principles, abuse her ethics, or dictate her beliefs. Love demands that he respect her mind as well as her body, to care for her as he would care for himself, listen to her suggestions, take her advice when she speaks wisely, acknowledge her good ideas, encourage her to think independently, treat her with mutual respect, and grant her the freedom and space to be wrong.

Having said that, if his wife is not a believer, he will be patient and kind and loving and wait for the Lord to open her eyes. Her eternal destiny is in the hands of God, just as his is.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:25 AM
The marriage union does not make two people into a single individual. It is the arena in which two people have decided to walk together through life, working together, raising children together, living together, sleeping together and sharing all things in common.

A marriage is work, which takes mutual commitment from two individuals, who agree to live and work in tandem. Each person made a voluntary and informed decision to become life partners, which requires two people of conscience to find a way to unify their goals, aspirations, dreams, and values, such that each person is allowed to maintain their dignity as a human being made in the image of God.

To this end, a man would not ask his wife to do anything against her own conscience. He would not force her to violate her moral principles, abuse her ethics, or dictate her beliefs. Love demands that he respect her mind as well as her body, to care for her as he would care for himself, listen to her suggestions, take her advice when she speaks wisely, acknowledge her good ideas, encourage her to think independently, treat her with mutual respect, and grant her the freedom and space to be wrong.

Having said that, if his wife is not a believer, he will be patient and kind and loving and wait for the Lord to open her eyes. Her eternal destiny is in the hands of God, just as his is.
Thanks BroRog, Can you comment on the phrase "the two shall be one flesh" from the scriptures. It can't be a ref to kids because more than one child (the normal result of marriage) would mean that the phrase is worded incorrectly. So I see it must mean something different.

Could you also comment on the sanctification reference in the first thread.

Thanks Much
DF1

BroRog
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:47 PM
Thanks BroRog, Can you comment on the phrase "the two shall be one flesh" from the scriptures. It can't be a ref to kids because more than one child (the normal result of marriage) would mean that the phrase is worded incorrectly. So I see it must mean something different.

Could you also comment on the sanctification reference in the first thread.

Thanks Much
DF1

The idea that a married couple shall become "one flesh" comes from Genesis chapter two.


18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.
21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
23The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man."
24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
25And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.


The first question I ask is this. What does it mean that Adam needed a suitable helper? The answer comes back, "Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them." The activity of naming the animals required Adam to study them carefully in order to give them a proper name. Each animal was brought before him, and in turn, he gave it an appropriate name based on its physical characteristics and behavior.


Having done that, what did Adam discover? He realized that for him, "there was not found a helper suitable for him." God already knew this. He didn't have to be told that Adam needed a wife. But apparently Adam needed to learn this for himself. By giving Adam this assignment to name all the animals, Adam came to realize for himself that he didn't have a suitable helper, and again, the emphasis is on the word "suitable." Out of all the flesh the Lord formed from out of the ground, Adam did not find flesh like his.


Now I take note of the fact that Adam and all the other animals were formed from the earth. But woman was formed from Adam's rib. It isn't as if God couldn't have formed the woman out of the earth. But apparently God wanted to teach Adam another lesson. So he formed woman out of Adam. And this fact then becomes the rational for why a man and woman "shall become one flesh."


For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.


Since God formed woman out of man, in a sense, every woman is already physically suitable for every man. Physically speaking, any woman in the world is suitable for any man in the world. Physically speaking every human being on the planet is already "one flesh". That is, each human being shares a common ancestry and a common biology with Adam and Eve. We are all of one flesh, physically speaking.



A child is especially "of one flesh" with his parents. Our biological parents are the closest to us physically than anyone on the planet, with the exception of our brothers and sisters, who are even more closely related to us than our parents. Nonetheless, in order for a man to truly find a suitable helper, he must LEAVE his father and mother and be joined to a wife.


In order for a man to find a suitable helper for him, he must find a wife with which to be naked and not ashamed. This guiltless personal intimacy with each other is the primary focus of the phrase "the two shall become one flesh." The two of them will become "one flesh" in an act of guiltless physical intimacy, an intimacy that they share with each other but not with anyone else, not even their parents or their siblings.



This physical intimacy will become the basis and the model for other forms of intimacy between them, such that, for example, they will share secrets with each other that no other person on the planet will know.