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legoman
Oct 21st 2008, 12:57 PM
Simple enough question: Does God always get what he wants? Does he always get his way?

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.


I would have to say YES. What are the implications of this?

Legoman

Firefighter
Oct 21st 2008, 01:03 PM
Mat 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

What do you do with this one? It is not His will, but yet some still perish.

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 01:12 PM
Mat 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

What do you do with this one? It is not His will, but yet some still perish.


does it say that any of his sheep will perish?


Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

John 10:15-17
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 01:18 PM
Simple enough question: Does God always get what he wants? Does he always get his way?

Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him,
in the heavens and on the earth,
in the seas and all their depths.

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.


I would have to say YES. What are the implications of this?

Legoman

According to the scripture you have used, I would say yes.

Is 55:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=55&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I am sure about the implications I would only say that we can depend on God to do whatever he has said, wether we like it or not.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

matthew94
Oct 21st 2008, 01:27 PM
Of course God has the ability to accomplish anything He wants. It's a question of WHAT He wants. Does God want robots who are simply programmed to follow Him? Or does He want people to choose Him. I think the latter is clearly true. And so while God could force people to be His, He does not WANT to do it that way. The best way for Him to get what He wants (restored relationships with human beings) is to give them a choice in the matter. Thus, God has sovereignly designated some control to humanity.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 01:34 PM
Of course God has the ability to accomplish anything He wants. It's a question of WHAT He wants. Does God want robots who are simply programmed to follow Him? Or does He want people to choose Him. I think the latter is clearly true. And so while God could force people to be His, He does not WANT to do it that way. The best way for Him to get what He wants (restored relationships with human beings) is to give them a choice in the matter. Thus, God has sovereignly designated some control to humanity.

I agree with you however not everyone believes that we have free will to choose.

Firstfruits

legoman
Oct 21st 2008, 02:50 PM
Of course God has the ability to accomplish anything He wants. It's a question of WHAT He wants. Does God want robots who are simply programmed to follow Him? Or does He want people to choose Him. I think the latter is clearly true.

It is interesting how questions relating to God's sovereignty and purpose always lead to assertions that we still must have free will. I don't wish that this thread become derailed too much into the predestination debate, so I will start another thread relating to your question.

For a brief answer here, I would state the following. Does God force us to love him? Is love a free will act? Or is it influenced? Is it inspired? Inspiration could be a type of "forcing". I would submit that the action of loving someone is actually one of the worst examples of a free will act. In many cases love is not even a choice, it just happens. Examples: Falling in love, loving your children. I will start a thread on this.



And so while God could force people to be His, He does not WANT to do it that way. The best way for Him to get what He wants (restored relationships with human beings) is to give them a choice in the matter. Thus, God has sovereignly designated some control to humanity.
Why would that be the best way? In effect this arguments says that God "leaves it all up to us." God wants something, but he's letting us have the option of fullfilling that want.

With that view, we would have to conclude God does not always get what he wants. That doesn't mesh with the scriptures in the original post. And it doesn't mesh with the concept of a completely sovereign God.

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 03:04 PM
It is interesting how questions relating to God's sovereignty and purpose always lead to assertions that we still must have free will. I don't wish that this thread become derailed too much into the predestination debate, so I will start another thread relating to your question.

For a brief answer here, I would state the following. Does God force us to love him? Is love a free will act? Or is it influenced? Is it inspired? Inspiration could be a type of "forcing". I would submit that the action of loving someone is actually one of the worst examples of a free will act. In many cases love is not even a choice, it just happens. Examples: Falling in love, loving your children. I will start a thread on this.

Why would that be the best way? In effect this arguments says that God "leaves it all up to us." God wants something, but he's letting us have the option of fullfilling that want.

With that view, we would have to conclude God does not always get what he wants. That doesn't mesh with the scriptures in the original post. And it doesn't mesh with the concept of a completely sovereign God.

With regards to the scripture given by the OP why do you not believe that what God has ordained or spoken shall be.

Is 55:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=55&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God has set down what he wants us to do and he has also told us what will happen if we do not obey, so either way Gods will shall be done.

Firstfruits

matthew94
Oct 21st 2008, 03:22 PM
For a brief answer here, I would state the following. Does God force us to love him? Is love a free will act? Or is it influenced? Is it inspired? Inspiration could be a type of "forcing"

I would never argue that love isn't inspired by grace. We love because He first loved us. To answer your questions. No. Yes. Yes. Yes. No.


I would submit that the action of loving someone is actually one of the worst examples of a free will act. In many cases love is not even a choice, it just happens. Examples: Falling in love, loving your children. I will start a thread on this.

No, I completely disagree. You're more talking about the emotional side of love. We are inspired to love, but there is always a willful element to love.


Why would that be the best way? In effect this arguments says that God "leaves it all up to us." God wants something, but he's letting us have the option of fullfilling that want.

It's the best way because it's the way that maintains the truest kind of love. It's a straw man to say this "leaves it all up to us." It is not "all" up to us in any sense. God inspires the love AND we respond to that inspiration. God's grace provokes, but doesn't necessitate love. Your last statement is true.


With that view, we would have to conclude God does not always get what he wants. That doesn't mesh with the scriptures in the original post. And it doesn't mesh with the concept of a completely sovereign God.

No, you're incorrect. Sometimes God's desires are in conflict. He wants people to be saved, but also wants them to respond to His grace. If they don't respond to His grace, they can't be truly saved. Jesus longed to gather Israel together, but they were not willing (Matthew 23:37). In that case, for one example, God did not get His way in one sense. But at the same time, He DID because what He wanted was for choice to be involved.

So this is not in contradiction with the verses you stated since God's desire (for choice to be involved) still reigned. This also doesn't contradict God's sovereignty b/c sovereignty is not diminished by delegation. God is still the one in charge of setting the rules. He has chosen, sovereignly, to include choice.

It's not enough to say that choice is solely up to man, since hardly anybody argues that. Arminian theology says that right choice is inspired by God's grace while still maintaining truly personal response.

God bless,
matthew

VerticalReality
Oct 21st 2008, 03:22 PM
Anyone ever thought that God not always getting His way IS Him getting His way . . . thereby making this a sovereign choice of God? :D

Can God, being sovereign, not choose to allow people the option of making a decision by free will . . . and in the process, being that this is His way of doing it, showing His sovereignty as well?

VerticalReality
Oct 21st 2008, 03:26 PM
Well, matthew . . .

I guess you were thinking it about the same time I was . . . :lol:

legoman
Oct 21st 2008, 03:28 PM
With regards to the scripture given by the OP why do you not believe that what God has ordained or spoken shall be.


Hi Firstfruits,

Sorry, I'm confused here by your response. Where did I say I don't believe that what God has ordained or spoken shall be? For in fact that is exactly what these verses say (as you point out), and that is why I said YES, God always get whats he wants.

Did you misunderstand something I said? Ah, perhaps you misunderstood this:


Legoman said:
With that view, we would have to conclude God does not always get what he wants.
I was only referring to the view that God lets us decide our own fate, or have free will. If we really have free will, then at least some of God's wants are in our hands, therefore God would not always get what he wants. But we know that can't be true because of the scripture in the OP.



Is 55:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=23&CHAP=55&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Totally Agree. "It shall not return unto me void" God will speak/declare/ordain something, and it will come to pass. His words aren't "all talk and no action". Thus his words don't return to him empty, but produce the exact result he desired.



God has set down what he wants us to do and he has also told us what will happen if we do not obey, so either way Gods will shall be done.
Here you have to be careful. If this statement is true: "God always gets what he wants", then it is a contradiction that we humans could do something that God does not want.

So do you really think God always gets what he wants?

Legoman

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 03:37 PM
Hi Firstfruits,

Sorry, I'm confused here by your response. Where did I say I don't believe that what God has ordained or spoken shall be? For in fact that is exactly what these verses say (as you point out), and that is why I said YES, God always get whats he wants.

Did you misunderstand something I said? Ah, perhaps you misunderstood this:
I was only referring to the view that God lets us decide our own fate, or have free will. If we really have free will, then at least some of God's wants are in our hands, therefore God would not always get what he wants. But we know that can't be true because of the scripture in the OP.

Totally Agree. "It shall not return unto me void" God will speak/declare/ordain something, and it will come to pass. His words aren't "all talk and no action". Thus his words don't return to him empty, but produce the exact result he desired.

Here you have to be careful. If this statement is true: "God always gets what he wants", then it is a contradiction that we humans could do something that God does not want.

So do you really think God always gets what he wants?

Legoman

Did you misunderstand something I said? Ah, perhaps you misunderstood this:

Quote:
Legoman said:
With that view, we would have to conclude God does not always get what he wants.
Yes that is what I understood you meant.

God does get what he wants, however there are consequences for those that do not do according to his will.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

legoman
Oct 21st 2008, 03:45 PM
Anyone ever thought that God not always getting His way IS Him getting His way . . . thereby making this a sovereign choice of God? :D

Can God, being sovereign, not choose to allow people the option of making a decision by free will . . . and in the process, being that this is His way of doing it, showing His sovereignty as well?

Hi VR,

I think you have the right idea, but free will doesn't enter into it.

God's sovereign will is that people will go against his will.

Does that make sense? Seems like a contradiction doesn't it?

Steve M
Oct 21st 2008, 04:01 PM
# Matthew 23:37
[ Jesus Laments over Jerusalem ] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Huh. Sure sounds like God wanted something... but the people were not willing, and so He did not.

Thoughts on that?

legoman
Oct 21st 2008, 04:08 PM
# Matthew 23:37
[ Jesus Laments over Jerusalem ] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Huh. Sure sounds like God wanted something... but the people were not willing, and so He did not.

Thoughts on that?

Hi Steve,

I think that's a case of God's plan (his will) temporarily going in a different direction than his ultimate goal (also his will).

God works in strange ways.

Legoman

Steve M
Oct 21st 2008, 04:16 PM
Hi Steve,

I think that's a case of God's plan (his will) temporarily going in a different direction than his ultimate goal (also his will).

God works in strange ways.

Legoman
The reason He gives, however, is not 'but it doesn't fit the ultimate plan.' It's 'but you were not willing.'

Emanate
Oct 21st 2008, 04:20 PM
No, I completely disagree. You're more talking about the emotional side of love. We are inspired to love, but there is always a willful element to love.


I agree. True love is not a feeling, it is a commitment.

VerticalReality
Oct 21st 2008, 05:49 PM
Hi VR,

I think you have the right idea, but free will doesn't enter into it.

God's sovereign will is that people will go against his will.

Does that make sense? Seems like a contradiction doesn't it?

Seems more like you twisting my words into something I didn't state. You seem to view God's sovereign will as Him forcing something to happen. In other words, above you are twisting my words to state the following . . .

God's sovereign will (force) is that people will go against His will.

Your definition of God's sovereignty is not in agreement with mine. I do not believe God in His sovereignty is forcing anything. I believe in His sovereignty He is setting things up in a way where we have a choice. So, in other words, in His sovereignty He is forcing us to choose . . . not forcing us to choose in a particular way or another. So, your statement is not stating the same thing as mine.

VerticalReality
Oct 21st 2008, 05:50 PM
I want to apologize also, legoman. When I tried to respond to your post I clicked the edit button rather than the quote button by mistake, so I accidently edited your post. I assure you it wasn't intended.

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 06:01 PM
Of course God has the ability to accomplish anything He wants. It's a question of WHAT He wants. Does God want robots who are simply programmed to follow Him? Or does He want people to choose Him. I think the latter is clearly true. And so while God could force people to be His, He does not WANT to do it that way. The best way for Him to get what He wants (restored relationships with human beings) is to give them a choice in the matter. Thus, God has sovereignly designated some control to humanity.I agree. Well said.

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 06:09 PM
Hi Steve,

I think that's a case of God's plan (his will) temporarily going in a different direction than his ultimate goal (also his will).

God works in strange ways.

LegomanYou can't brush aside that passage so easily.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly, Jesus is saying here what He would have done if only they had been willing to accept Him. Clearly, it was their choice to reject Him (not all of them, but most) and was not what He wanted them to do. If this was His plan all along then it makes no sense that He got so angry with them and was saddened by their rebellion.

We can see that in this passage as well:

Luke 19
41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

They were solely held responsible for not recognizing the time of their visitation. It wasn't because He wanted them to not recognize that time and that He was their Messiah. It was due to their willful refusal to recognize the time of their visitation and their Messiah.

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 06:15 PM
So this is not in contradiction with the verses you stated since God's desire (for choice to be involved) still reigned. This also doesn't contradict God's sovereignty b/c sovereignty is not diminished by delegation. God is still the one in charge of setting the rules. He has chosen, sovereignly, to include choice.

It's not enough to say that choice is solely up to man, since hardly anybody argues that. Arminian theology says that right choice is inspired by God's grace while still maintaining truly personal response.

God bless,
matthew

Time to stir things up a bit..:)

What about what Paul mentions us as being..slaves to righteousnous or slaves to sin..how does one's personal "free will" response play into this?

Another follow up question to this question? How does one know the difference between a 'free will' choice that God has given them to make, and a 'free will" choice that God is making for them..if God is the only one who is completely free?

Interested in getting some responses regarding these...

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 06:51 PM
Time to stir things up a bit..:)

What about what Paul mentions us as being..slaves to righteousnous or slaves to sin..how does one's personal "free will" response play into this?

Another follow up question to this question? How does one know the difference between a 'free will' choice that God has given them to make, and a 'free will" choice that God is making for them..if God is the only one who is completely free?

Interested in getting some responses regarding these...

Do we have a choice as to whom we yield?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

If God forces us to do his will, does that mean that we can never sin, because we are slaves to Gods will?

Firstfruits

VerticalReality
Oct 21st 2008, 07:05 PM
Time to stir things up a bit..:)

What about what Paul mentions us as being..slaves to righteousnous or slaves to sin..how does one's personal "free will" response play into this?

Another follow up question to this question? How does one know the difference between a 'free will' choice that God has given them to make, and a 'free will" choice that God is making for them..if God is the only one who is completely free?

Interested in getting some responses regarding these...

This doesn't seem involuntary to me . . .

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that ones slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

If I "present" myself to something or someone . . . they are not forcing me to do it. I'm making the decision on my own.

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 07:29 PM
Do we have a choice as to whom we yield?

Rom 6:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

If God forces us to do his will, does that mean that we can never sin, because we are slaves to Gods will?

Firstfruits

I'm going to repeat what I typed in the other thread where you asked similar questions.



...I think the underlying question you are asking is "what makes someone free to choose." The only logical answer to this question is "God." Thus at some point, we do indeed have to acknowledge within our walks that we ourselves are kind of limited in what we can do when making the right choices(and in our faith) - being that we are limited beings, who possess limited knowledge and intelligence. Thus this is when I believe God's mercy comes into play. David acknowledges this frequently in his psalms, as does the Apostle Paul within his epistles.


Remember Paul also states within his epistles that we can do nothing "against" the truth, but we can only do things for the truth..which again demonstrates God's sovereignty, control, and guidance over all things that occur within our lives.

Remember Paul also states within his epistles that "all things are permissable to me" but not all things are "beneficial" to me. Thus, the ability to choose regarding all facets of our lives will always come from God and not of ourselves.

I think a real interesting question to add to this discussion would be, at what point does God bring one into complete submission to doing what is good, as oppossed to allowing them to make a choice that is evil. This is a gray area, which really is kind of above any of our rationale or understanding I guess. My thought would be that one should do as Christ suggests, pray for God not to lead them into temptation, but instead deliver them from evil.

God bless,

Stephen

Firstfruits
Oct 21st 2008, 07:48 PM
I'm going to repeat what I typed in the other thread where you asked similar questions.



Remember Paul also states within his epistles that we can do nothing "against" the truth, but we can only do things for the truth..which again demonstrates God's sovereignty, control, and guidance over all things that occur within our lives.

Remember Paul also states within his epistles that "all things are permissable to me" but not all things are "beneficial" to me. Thus, the ability to choose regarding all facets of our lives will always come from God and not of ourselves.

I think a real interesting question to add to this discussion would be, at what point does God bring one into complete submission to doing what is good, as oppossed to allowing them to make a choice that is evil. This is a gray area, which really is kind of above any of our rationale or understanding I guess. My thought would be that one should do as Christ suggests, pray for God not to lead them into temptation, but instead deliver them from evil.

God bless,

Stephen

According to the following we can err from the truth;

Jas 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Can we restore someone that was not saved in the first place?

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Oct 21st 2008, 09:38 PM
According to the following we can err from the truth;

Jas 5:19 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=59&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Can we restore someone that was not saved in the first place?

Firstfruits

Well I guess the question to be asked really is salvation done by man's choice or effort, or through God's efforts/mercy upon man?

My answer would be God's mercy. Now that doesn't mean that a person can't all and out reject God willing himself to be saved. I'm sure someone could say "no" and God would allow the man to do as he wishes within the confines of the freedom that he allows within himself. But remember as stated by the Apostle Paul...though everything is permissible within the freedom that comes from God, not everything is beneficial. We will all be held accountable for what we have done while we are here - whether we call ourselves freemen/slaves/servant/king/etc/etc.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 09:48 PM
Here you have to be careful. If this statement is true: "God always gets what he wants", then it is a contradiction that we humans could do something that God does not want.

So do you really think God always gets what he wants?

LegomanGod always does what He wants but people don't always do what He wants them to do. Which explains why it grieved Him that He made mankind in Noah's day and also why He condemns people for deciding not to believe in Christ.

RogerW
Oct 21st 2008, 10:11 PM
# Matthew 23:37
[ Jesus Laments over Jerusalem ] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Huh. Sure sounds like God wanted something... but the people were not willing, and so He did not.

Thoughts on that?

Greetings Steve

These Jews are no different than any other man born of Adam. None are willing, unless God enables them. If it is God Who gives us ability to come to Christ for life, how can we claim we chose Him of our own free will? Christ is more than willing, but no man, fallen in Adam, born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins is willing of his/her own free will to come to Christ for life.

Many Blessings,
RW

legoman
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:42 AM
Seems more like you twisting my words into something I didn't state. You seem to view God's sovereign will as Him forcing something to happen. In other words, above you are twisting my words to state the following . . .

God's sovereign will (force) is that people will go against His will.

Your definition of God's sovereignty is not in agreement with mine. I do not believe God in His sovereignty is forcing anything. I believe in His sovereignty He is setting things up in a way where we have a choice. So, in other words, in His sovereignty He is forcing us to choose . . . not forcing us to choose in a particular way or another. So, your statement is not stating the same thing as mine.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were saying what I said! Please don't ever assume that. It is not my intent to twist anyone's words. I was just responding to your statement: "Anyone ever thought that God not always getting His way IS Him getting His way"

I will try to be more careful when responding if you can be more careful when editing my posts... ;)

I see it as God planned everything to happen, even the stuff that appears to be going against his will. He sets us up against his will so he can then humble us and then have mercy on us, all for his Glory (Romans 11:32).

So now I shall attempt to repost my thoughts on God's plan vs. God's goal since it was accidently deleted in post #14.

There is some confusion in the phrase "God's will" as it can be used in 2 different ways. It can be used to mean God's plan, and it can also be used to mean God's ultimate goal. God uses his plan to achieve his goal. Sometimes it may appear they are contrary.

A good example is the existence of evil. I don't think anyone could disagree that God's ultimate goal includes the elimination of evil. But his plan requires that evil exist for a time, so that goodness can be fully understood. But eventually the evil will be destroyed. It is all part of God's will - the plan and the ultimate goal.

The plan is being executed exactly (Isaiah 46:10-11) and will be successful in reaching the goal. God will get what he wants.

legoman
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:25 AM
God always does what He wants but people don't always do what He wants them to do. Which explains why it grieved Him that He made mankind in Noah's day and also why He condemns people for deciding not to believe in Christ.


You can't brush aside that passage so easily.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly, Jesus is saying here what He would have done if only they had been willing to accept Him. Clearly, it was their choice to reject Him (not all of them, but most) and was not what He wanted them to do. If this was His plan all along then it makes no sense that He got so angry with them and was saddened by their rebellion.

We can see that in this passage as well:

Luke 19
41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

They were solely held responsible for not recognizing the time of their visitation. It wasn't because He wanted them to not recognize that time and that He was their Messiah. It was due to their willful refusal to recognize the time of their visitation and their Messiah.

Eric,

I have answered this before in the "God does not change thread".
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=138943&page=3

Here is a synopsis:

I don't think this verse and the other verses like it imply that God changes, or that God changed his plan, or that God does not get what he wants. God can indeed be sorry or sad or grieving as described in these verses.

God is sorry, or "repents" in the way a parent is sorry when the parent knows he must discipline a child. The discipline must happen, and it may be temporarily unpleasant, but it is for the best in the long run. And the discipline is not wrong, it is necessary.

In verses like Luke 19 and Matthew 23 God already knows what they will do in this situation. He knows the outcome, so his plan has taken that into account. His plan does not need to change at all, as this was all part of his plan from the beginning. It doesn't mean he can't feel sorry though at the same time.

That's how I see God's plan. There are times of joy and times of sadness. Times of goodness and times of evil. All are necessary to achieve God's unchanging plan.

1 Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

If a mere man can change God's mind, how can verses such as Isaiah 46:10 be true? If God changes his plan, because of something man did, then we have a problem. God is no longer sovereign. God is no longer all-knowing. His original plan needed to be changed, therefore it was in error. God would be admitting he made a mistake if he were to change his mind. This cannot be.

Its easy to understand what is happening here when you realize God really is operating all according to his plan.

Legoman

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:07 AM
Well I guess the question to be asked really is salvation done by man's choice or effort, or through God's efforts/mercy upon man?

My answer would be God's mercy. Now that doesn't mean that a person can't all and out reject God willing himself to be saved. I'm sure someone could say "no" and God would allow the man to do as he wishes within the confines of the freedom that he allows within himself. But remember as stated by the Apostle Paul...though everything is permissible within the freedom that comes from God, not everything is beneficial. We will all be held accountable for what we have done while we are here - whether we call ourselves freemen/slaves/servant/king/etc/etc.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

So if a brother or sister that has erred from the truth is not restored, will they be lost?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Firstfruits

Friend of I AM
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:57 PM
So if a brother or sister that has erred from the truth is not restored, will they be lost?

Gal 6:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Firstfruits


I think restore in this case is meant as gently informing one of a fault...as oppossed to meaning that we ourselves are making any final judgements on who God has mercy on. I think one should ideally try to inform another in meekness when they see someone doing something they ought not to be doing. Paul mentions all of this in his epistles, as well as mentions that we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ at some point.

Friend of I AM
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:15 PM
This doesn't seem involuntary to me . . .

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

If I "present" myself to something or someone . . . they are not forcing me to do it. I'm making the decision on my own.

You are making a choice based on God's abilities/sovereignty, not your own. Think of it this way. Can you make a decision that goes against the predifined limited criteria/information God has given you at any given time? The answer to this is "no."

Thus God does indeed move an individual in a particular direction, as he is working through all things. To believe that one has no one guiding them in making a decision is making the assumption that one has foreknowledge/sovereignty outside of God himself.

Now based on the knowledge God has given us in any given circumstance, we have the ability to make a "limited" choice within the confines of his sovereignty.

Remember the wide path, and the narrow path. We truly do need God to show us the right path that leads to his righteousnous and salvation.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen