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moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 02:21 PM
Lets do a study on this. I hear so many convinced that one of the reasons the end is near is because sin is so rampant...but what are they comparing it too? Their own short life time? How do you know its worse then in the past? I have heard this all my life and I also believed it was true until I started studying history! I have to say I was pretty shocked at how bad the past was...especially in the days when the very first Christian churches were being founded.

So all you study buffs add your own information and lets compare the past to the present and see if the claim sin is worse now then before really holds up or not.

Remember the Jews were being ruled over by a pagan nation in Paul's time..Rome. They worshiped many idols and sexual sin was rampant.

When Paul wrote this following passage it was because they were surrounded by people engaged in this type of activity:

1 Corinthians 6

9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.

David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=006)

d. Nor homosexuals: Since this is such a clear condemnation of homosexuality, those who would like to justify the practice say Paul is speaking of homosexual prostitution, not a "loving, caring homosexual relationship." But taken in context, there is no doubt God is speaking of homosexual acts of all kinds with the words malakoi (homosexuals, which literally refers to male prostitutes) and arsenokoitai (sodomites, a generic term for all homosexual practice).

i. Paul was not writing in or of a "homophobic" culture. Homosexuality was rampant in Paul's culture; fourteen out of the first fifteen Roman emperors were bisexual or homosexual. At the very time Paul was writing, Nero was emperor. He had taken a boy named Sporus and had him castrated. He then married him (with a full ceremony), brought him to the palace with a great procession, and made the boy his "wife." Later, Nero lived with another man, and Nero was declared to be the other man's "wife."

ii. In this list of sins, homosexuality (not some "special" version of homosexuality) is described. But it is described right along with other sins, many of which those who so strongly denounce homosexuals are themselves guilty of. Can fornicators or adulterers or the covetous or drunkards rightly condemn homosexuals? Of course not.

iii. Christians err when they excuse homosexuality, and deny that it is sin. But they also err just as badly when they single it out as a sin God is uniquely angry with.
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The pagan temples had what were called temple prostitutes back then...male, female and yes young boys. It wasn't against the law by any means. People walking down the road saw in the open all sorts of sexual sins. At least when we see it on TV we can turn the TV off! And yes in some urban areas you can see prostitutes standing on the streets but you don't see the actual sexual acts generally out in the open. Though I have heard of some pretty shocking things seen during gay pride parades or Mardi Gras happening out in the open. Those events can be avoided though...unlike in Paul's time.

While we don't have to endure seeing such things now, we are dealing with homosexuals being legally married in more and more states...but is this really worse then what the disciples experienced?

Next the subject of abortion. Agree it horrible...and while in Paul's day they weren't capable (that I know of anyway) of medical doctor preforming abortions they did kill babies on a very large scale. In the OT many of the pagan nations would sacrifice their babies and children to their god Baal and other pagan god by throwing them alive in fire!

http://www.bible-history.com/backd2/human_sacrifice.html

2 Kings 3:26-27 "And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too fierce for him, he took with him seven hundred men who drew swords, to break through to the king of Edom, but they could not. Then he took his eldest son who would have reigned in his place, and offered him as a burnt offering upon the wall." (NKJ)

Offering human sacrifices was a very ancient custom, and has been practiced at different times and among many nations, since the most ancient of times. Among the list of nations were the Ethiopians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Canaanites, the Scythians, the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Persians, the Indians, the Gauls, the Carthaginians, the Britons, the Arabians, the Romans, and many more, including the Africans and peoples of the Americas.

These sacrifices were offered in many different ways. Most were slaughtered under the knife; some were burned; some were drowned; some were buried alive, some were pushed down the stairs of a massive pyramid temple. In many ancient cultures parents would sacrifice their own children.

The northern kingdom of Israel followed the practices of the surrounding nations throughout all of their years, but whether or not human sacrifice was customary among them or any of the early Israelites there is no proof. Yahweh condemned such practices. The sacrifice of the firstborn was indeed customary with the people of Canaan. In times of of trouble they offered their best and dearest to the gods, 'the fruit of their body for the sin of their soul' (Mic 6:7).

The Old Testament reveals that Ahaz 'made his son to pass through the fire,' this is the incident in Scripture that made the valley of Tophet an abomination as recorded in Jer 7:31-32:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart. Therefore behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room."

continued.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 02:50 PM
Slavery:

When we go downtown do any of us see people standing a block being auctioned to the highest bidder?

Most of you are able to live someplace that has computers, don't see that...those not able to have computers...lights, running water, etc, may have seen such things even now! And some here in American may be old enough to remember such things in the past! But the point is, its not happening now in first world nations.

We know slavery was common in bibical times and America went through a civil war over slavery. But slavery wasn't something new to even America by any means. Its a practices that dates back as far as the history of men. There were many different types of slaves then and now. Back in the OT a person may become a slave willingly by becoming in debt and this was the only way to pay it off. That is still common today too in third world counties. Only those poor souls never get the debt paid off! People captured in wars were often taken as slaves also. While in most first world nations slavery is now illegal its still happening even here in the US and other nations only the slaves are hidden away and this includes children brought in from other countries and force to be house keepers and even sex slaves. :(

In the news last year several rich families here in the states were arrested for having slaves. They promise a better life to those living in poor countries then bring them back here and make them prisoners. These children aren't allowed outside let alone go to school.

Doctor Sentenced For Having 'Personal Slave' (http://www.wbaltv.com/news/8819735/detail.html)

BALTIMORE -- A Maryland woman will spend more than seven years in prison for literally treating a 14-year-old Nigerian girl as her own personal slave.

A federal judge handed down the sentence against Dr. Adabobi Udeozor. Federal prosecutors said Udeozor, 46, lured the girl to the United States on the promise of giving her a home, baby-sitting money, and an education.

Instead, prosecutors said she and her husband forced the teen to care for their six children, beat her and threatened her with arrest.

Slavery is still pretty bad in many parts of the world. While we could say its obviously better here in the US compared to the past...world wide it really doesn't seem to have improved:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/03/08/women.trafficking/

Sex slavery: The growing trade

The project also claims that Asian women are sold to brothels in North America for $16,000 each.

Almost 200,000 girls from Nepal, many of them under the age of 14, are working as sex slaves in India.

An estimated 10,000 women from the former Soviet Union have been forced into prostitution in Israel.

The Thai government reports that 60,000 Thai children have been sold into prostitution.

As many as 10,000 children aged between six and 14 are virtually enslaved in brothels in Sri Lanka.

Some 20,000 women and children from Burma have been forced into prostitution in Thailand.

The project also says that of 155 cases of forced prostitution brought before the courts in The Netherlands, only four resulted in convictions of the traffickers.

The Protection Project is compiling a database on laws on trafficking, forced prostitution, slavery and debt bondage in 190 independent states and 63 dependencies.

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1186558,00.html
Stolen Away
As criminal gangs run amuck in Iraq, hundreds of girls have gone missing. Are they being sold for sex?
By BRIAN BENNETT/BAGHDAD

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11791

Sex Slave Jihad

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26296
DISPATCH FROM SOUTHEAST ASIA
Sex-slave trade flourishes in Thailand
'I am but one brick in that long … wall of female exploitation and misery'

Please pray for these women and children!

On this subject of slavery...with the information I have anyway, I would say things weren't worse but they certainly aren't better. The number of slaves has probably increased though simply because the world population has increased.

I'll keep adding things as I think of them. Add your own too.

God bless

Semi-tortured
Oct 21st 2008, 02:57 PM
Good post moonglow. 6,000 years of WORLD history and people tend to make everything about THEIR short lifetime and the United States. I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me. I believe Christ could return at any moment, but I don't believe it is imminent based on US history or some bad people doing bad things.

cwb
Oct 21st 2008, 02:58 PM
I do not believe sin is worse now than in the disciples time. However I do believe sinners have better technology to carry out their lawless deeds such as radical Islamists have the ability to obtain weapons of mass destruction, governments have the ability to use rfid technology to track and control its people, and corporations have the ability to destroy the environment.

teddyv
Oct 21st 2008, 03:09 PM
The sin of humanity is definitely no greater or less than at any time in history. Media saturation and it's fascination with bad stories certainly leads to an apparent feeling of an increase.

moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 03:16 PM
False teachings in churches:

Look at this it way for a quick and easy answer..if it wasn't happening in the early churches then how could we refer to scriptures to see if the churches today are teaching false things?

Jesus, Paul and many others in the bible were constantly dealing with false teachings! Jesus dealt with the Jewish leaders of His time...Paul deal with the early first Christian churches and false teachings on a near constant basis. This is nothing new!

In Matthew 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023;&version=50;) Jesus lays into the Jewish religious leaders big time! Talk about some strong words!

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’

Can this be applied to some of our churches now? Oh sure it can! To the leaders of those churches...

And look at what Paul was dealing with:

1 Corinthians 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=5&version=50&context=chapter)
Immorality Defiles the Church
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.

David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=005)


1. (1) The sin of an unnamed Christian in Corinth.

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles; that a man has his father's wife!

a. The term sexually immoral is the ancient Greek word porneia; it broadly refers to all types of sexual activity outside of marriage (including homosexuality).

i. Originally, porneia just referred to going to prostitutes; but before New Testament times, the Jewish community used the word to refer to any kind of extramarital sex, including homosexuality. This is its sense in the New Testament.

ii. Commentators on the word porneia: "the Scripture by this word comprehends all species of unlawful mixtures." (Poole) "must be understood in its utmost latitude of meaning, as implying all kinds of impurity." (Clarke)

iii. Porneia so often appears first in New Testament "sin lists" but not because the first Christians had a lot of "hang ups" about sex. Instead, it is because the area of sex was one of the most dramatic places where the ethics of Greek culture clashed with the ethics of Jesus. Sexual immorality was an accepted fact of life for the common person in Greek culture, but it was not to be so among the followers of Jesus.

b. That a man has his father's wife: Apparently, someone was having an on-going sexual relationship (either as married or living together) with his stepmother (his father's wife). The woman involved must not be a Christian, for she isn't even addressed.

i. The verb to have is a euphemism for an enduring sexual relationship, not just a passing fancy or a "one night stand."

c. And such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles: Paul understood that this kind of incestuous relationship would be considered taboo even among the pagans of their culture, yet the Corinthian Christians seem accepting of this behavior.

i. The ancient Roman writer and statesman Cicero said this type of incest was an incredible crime and practically unheard of. Truly, it was not even named among the Gentiles!

ii. It should have been enough that this is declared sin by the Bible (Leviticus 18:8; Deuteronomy 22:30 and 27:20); it should have been enough that the worldly culture itself considered it sin. But the Corinthian Christians didn't seem bothered by it at all!
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Paul had a terrible time with the Corinthians because they had been raised around sexually immoral behavior and truly saw nothing wrong with it! We see him addressing their behavior time and time again! They saw nothing wrong with this man having a sexual relationship with his own step mother and were filled with 'spiritual pride'.

We complain about how people in church who have committed adultery or are actively involved in adultery are allowed to stay in church...and yes that needs to be addressed for sure! But we carry on as if this or nothing like it has ever happened before and here Paul was dealing with what was considered then to be incest.

Scriptures addresses the other concerns we see happening in many churches today...the love of money being on the top list, and many false teachings....Jesus warns us over and over of false prophets and false teachers...and Paul, Peter and John were all dealing with the exact same problems then or they wouldn't have written about them in the first place. They give real life examples such as this one as to what was happening and how they dealt with them. Even Paul and Peter had a major disagreement on some teaching at one point. This also is nothing new for leader to not agree on this and cause a major division among the members.

Now what we don't see happening (unless someone knows of some scriptures I don't) is active homosexuals (or those active in ANY sin) being allowed to be pastors of a church! I think this may actually be a new thing and a very bad thing...and I know it was causing a huge uproar in many churches and caused alot of break up in churches. So this may be one area where we can actual says things have gotten worse....(unless someone knows something I don't on this).

If you go further forward in the past (back to the future..lol) to the Dark Ages ...yes some pretty horrible things were happening then in the Christian religion...mostly involving the Catholic church but then the Protestant don't have a totally clean slate either! I'll post on that one after awhile...

God bless

moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 04:25 PM
Good post moonglow. 6,000 years of WORLD history and people tend to make everything about THEIR short lifetime and the United States. I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me. I believe Christ could return at any moment, but I don't believe it is imminent based on US history or some bad people doing bad things.

Very true! I also think He could literally return at any time...not after such and such happens first...


teddyv : The sin of humanity is definitely no greater or less than at any time in history. Media saturation and it's fascination with bad stories certainly leads to an apparent feeling of an increase.

Very true and a great point! Because of the media we know about sins much quicker! And more indepth...then they used too. So yes it can appear things are worse then they really are. Its like when they go on and on about a terrible murder in a town...they don't say, but the other 10,000 in this town didn't harm each other...everyone just focuses on the one bad things and views get distorted that way.


cwb I do not believe sin is worse now than in the disciples time. However I do believe sinners have better technology to carry out their lawless deeds such as radical Islamists have the ability to obtain weapons of mass destruction, governments have the ability to use rfid technology to track and control its people, and corporations have the ability to destroy the environment.

I don't know that more people dying due to WMD makes things worse in the past though...I mean look at the numbers here:

Adam Clarks bible commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024)
To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. ELEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Jos. WAR, b. ii. c. 14.

By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000.

Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned.

In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, WAR, book ii. c. 18,20; book iii. c. 2,7, 8,9; book iv. c. 1,2, 7,8, 9; book vii. c. 6,9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.

Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200.

In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves.

Eleven thousand in one place perished for want. At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honour of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honour of his father's. See Josephus, WAR, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day.

Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles. Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion.

World War II (World war two), or the Second World War, (often abbreviated WWII) was a global military conflict which involved a majority of the world's nations, including all of the great powers, organized into two opposing military alliances: the Allies and the Axis. The war involved the mobilization of over 100 million military personnel, making it the most widespread war in history. In a state of "total war", the major participants placed their complete economic, industrial, and scientific capabilities at the service of the war effort, erasing the distinction between civilian and military resources. Over 70 million people, the majority of them civilians, were killed, making it the deadliest conflict in human history.

Joseph Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin) (Georgian: ნამდვილი გვარი ჯუღაშვილი, Russian: Иосиф Сталин, ISO 9: Iosif Stalin; December 18 [O.S. December 6] 1878 – March 5, 1953) was General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's Central Committee from 1922 until his death in 1953. He gradually consolidated power and became party leader and dictator of the Soviet Union, established the regime now known as Stalinism.

Following the death of Vladimir Lenin in 1924, Stalin prevailed in a power struggle over Leon Trotsky, who was expelled from the Communist Party and deported from the Soviet Union. Stalin launched a command economy in the Soviet Union replacing the New Economic Policy of the 1920s with Five-Year Plans in 1928 and at roughly the same time, forced rapid industrialization of the largely rural country and collective farming by confiscating the lands of farmers. He derogatorily referred to farmers who refused his reforms as "kulaks", a class of rich peasant which had in actual fact been wiped out by World War I; millions were killed, exiled to Siberia, or died of starvation after their land, homes, meager possessions, and ability to earn an existence from the land were taken to fulfill Stalin's vision of massive "factory farms".[5]


governments have the ability to use rfid technology to track and control its people,

I guess I don't understand this concern some have on here as I see nothing in the bible that suggest anyone will try to track us or anyone else. Care to enlighten me on that?

Thanks

God bless

John146
Oct 21st 2008, 08:45 PM
Very true! I also think He could literally return at any time...not after such and such happens first...We do know the following has to happen first:

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul taught that there would be a massive falling away from the faith before the second coming of Christ. Don't you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming? We may be in that time period already, I'm not sure. But to say that nothing is prophesied to happen before the return of Christ is not entirely accurate. There isn't necessarily a specific event that will tell us His return is near, but if we see an increase in deception and wickedness along with mass apostasy in the world then that will be a sign that His return is near.

cwb
Oct 21st 2008, 08:57 PM
[quote=moonglow

I guess I don't understand this concern some have on here as I see nothing in the bible that suggest anyone will try to track us or anyone else. Care to enlighten me on that?

Thanks

God bless
[/quote]
Some believe it is rfid technology the enemy will use to bring about the mark of the beast. Whether the devil uses rfid technology or not I do not know. However, I know the technology is out there now and is getting better all the time. Whether our government ever usess it in an evil way remains to be seen. If our government does not use rfid for evil purposes, it will still be interesting to see how radical Islamic countries use it once the technology becomes more widespread and more sophisticated.

cwb
Oct 21st 2008, 09:02 PM
We do know the following has to happen first:

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul taught that there would be a massive falling away from the faith before the second coming of Christ. Don't you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming? We may be in that time period already, I'm not sure. But to say that nothing is prophesied to happen before the return of Christ is not entirely accurate. There isn't necessarily a specific event that will tell us His return is near, but if we see an increase in deception and wickedness along with mass apostasy in the world then that will be a sign that His return is near.

I am having some trouble understanding why you say we could be in that time period now. I do not see anybody in our world today who could qualify as the man of sin being revealed. Do you?

moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 09:36 PM
We do know the following has to happen first:

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul taught that there would be a massive falling away from the faith before the second coming of Christ. Don't you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming? We may be in that time period already, I'm not sure. But to say that nothing is prophesied to happen before the return of Christ is not entirely accurate. There isn't necessarily a specific event that will tell us His return is near, but if we see an increase in deception and wickedness along with mass apostasy in the world then that will be a sign that His return is near.

Excellent point and one of the things I wanted to get too. I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction...looking for natural disasters to get worse, looking for people to be more sinful and on and on and on. The key it seems Jesus and Paul were pointing to so often was IN the church!

I think there is a verse in the bible about why would we expect unbelievers to act better then they are? Why would we expect this world to be anything other then what Christ said it was....sin fallen...so why are we acting all shocked and upset when people do terrible things and we think that means the end is close. Truly horrible things have happen! And will keep happening.

At any rate, yes...the defining point here is how many are falling away from God? I don't think we can say false teachings are worse or more wide spread then in the past. What we need to watch for is all those ex-Christians out there and I am seeing more and more of those but honestly some of the things they say in their reason for leaving the faith makes me think most of those were never saved to start with. They don't even have basis knowledge of the bible or Jesus. They leave over silly things...more like they didn't like the rules so left. That isn't what I am watching for.

Those that believe in OSAS are going to have a hard time with that passage or think no real Christians will fall away. I think the combination of the strain of the false churches on top of many other things will cause them to turn their backs on God.

I am seeing it to some extent already and have for several years now...these more then just "I said the sinners prayer" type of Christian. The world isn't more sinful then it was in the past..its not them just giving in to the pressure of the sinnful world cause its more terrible then before..that isnt' true. Its deeper then that.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 09:43 PM
Some believe it is rfid technology the enemy will use to bring about the mark of the beast. Whether the devil uses rfid technology or not I do not know. However, I know the technology is out there now and is getting better all the time. Whether our government ever usess it in an evil way remains to be seen. If our government does not use rfid for evil purposes, it will still be interesting to see how radical Islamic countries use it once the technology becomes more widespread and more sophisticated.

I know their concerns over the chip..but the tracking device is going really too far when they say that. I mean first of all...if they have a Christian physically in their grips, why chip them and let them go? The idea of the chip is to get the mark of the beast and in order to do that you have to also worship the beast...or be killed...that is what the bible says. So if they have a Christian who refuses both...why would they want to chip them just to follow their movements? That isn't in scriptures. It says if the Christian refuses...they kill them. There wouldn't be enough people to watch the activities of 8 billion people anyway!

I know people worry what they say on the computer, phone is heard and being watched...I honestly don't care. What do I ever say or do that I would be ashamed of and want to hide anyway? So if my jeans from Walmart have a tracking device in them ...who cares? Whole thing seems pretty silly to me. They can watch a light move around my house while I clean it...or the yard when I mow...follow the bleeping light as I go check my mail...I mean what is the point of that? I never could understand that...

God bless

wrldstrman
Oct 21st 2008, 10:08 PM
All I know is how ive seen the world change in the past 40 some years. When I was little you never heard about homoseuality. Now its thrown in your face and if you dont except it your a hater. Divorce happened but it was still viewed as shameful. Now its the in thing to do. We have porn stars on prime time tv sitting around a talk show like opra talking about penis sizes. You cant let your children out of your site for the fear of some child molester grabbing them. etc, etc. then our court systems side with the criminals. the psychology anymore is there not accountable for their actions, its someone esles fault. Yes sin was bad in the old times but the biggest difference is its glorified today. people take pride in sinning. And back in the old days there wasnt the means of communication we have today. where some misguided individual can hook up easy with others.

Small things like calling adults by there last name. Mr Smith doesnt happen anymore. dressing appropreate to school. long pants and a shirt, or skirt have been replaced with short shorts tank tops sandles. My thing is it just seem sinful things have become so acceptable these days. that for the common person there is no right or wrong. its whatever they feel.

Marriage is a good example.. Were susposed to court , get married, stay together til death. having children is a blessing from God.

But today most people have had several sexual partners, before marriage dive into marriage on a whim and dont want children because they are more concerend about material possesions. Then when things dont work out they get divorced and see nothing wrong with it.

danield
Oct 21st 2008, 10:52 PM
I think sin is much worse now than it was back in Roman days. I have read several books on the culture of the times, and some things that we have seen on TV are really not representative to the actual culture of the day. For instance, I believe that Moonglow mentioned that homosexuality was ramped during the day of Nero. And indeed, there were people who were homosexual, but it defiantly was not encouraged as the proper way to go through life. Case in point, they gave tax breaks as they do today to married men and women because they wanted to encourage children. You see they needed a larger population to fill the ranks of their military so they needed to push heterosexual families. I know we have seen many films that depict the emperors as homosexual exploiters, but we have to look at the source. Nero was plain crazy, and he did not represent the masses as were many other leaders of their day. This could be debated, but the key part of this in my mind is that they did not export homosexuality as an accepted way of life and we do.

Secondly, Crime was harshly punished to keep everyone in line. For instance if someone robbed for what ever reason they could easily have been crucified just outside the city streets to make a point of not stealing. It was quite effective in keeping everyone in line. This was not done in the name of Christ, but law and order was kept efficiently. Most of the population was poor so greed was typically isolated to the centralized roman power structure. Families were close because they had to produce crops in order to survive. Times were hard so people did not live a long life. If you were in your mid to late 30’s you were considered a person who has lived a long life.

I am sure adultery was popular back then just as it is today, but one thing we have over the Romans is that today we have ways of concealing our actions’ much better than in days of past. Birth control helps conceal these acts today, and if you catch an STD, there is always a shot waiting for you to cover some of the common ailments, and then there is always abortion or just out right deceit about who the baby daddy is. I am not stupid to think that adultery did not occur back then, but what I am suggesting is that there were real repercussions to mistakes back then that do not exists today. Remember that stoning was an accepted punishment for people who were caught in adultery. Today, if you have an affair, it can easily be blamed on the other spouse for mistreating you in one way or another. I am not suggesting staying in an abusive marriage, but what I am suggesting is that many people have affairs because they grow tired of their partner, and then blame the act on their spouse because they did not get to go out to dinner like they should have. In any event, I think it is much more widespread. Case in point, look at how many preachers are caught in adultery today, and some are even caught in homosexual affairs. Now can you imagine the head Rabbi in Roman days being caught in a homosexual relationship? Christ never mentioned that they were associated in that type of sin, and I think he fully exposed them of their wrong doing in his day.

As far as idol worshipping, I think today most people in America worship money much more than they do God. Money becomes an idol when we put it first in our lives. Also, the insignia “in god we trust” on our currency is a reference to many gods. I want to put this so everyone can see this clearly. Our nation is founded on freedom in religion, and even though Christianity was the predominant religion 200 years ago, it is not so today. We are now witnessing many branches of different sect’s crop up out of nowhere. Many do have roots tied to Christianity, but their practices are nothing but foreign to most Christians of any day. Then we have Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism, Atheism, and any tax free status organization that can be thought up. I think Christianity is further along today than it was in Roman days for sure, but we do have our fair share of idols out there.

Then there is the issue of exportation of immorality. Just look at our media outlets that sensationalize immorality. There is no need to go into detail, but we all know that this is an anchor to our society. All in all I say we are shaping up perfectly as described in many end times references of the Bible. I could go on and on about our immorality, but surely everyone sees it just as I do. There is no doubt in my mind that sin is worse today than in the disciple’s time.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:38 AM
[QUOTE=wrldstrman;1835124]All I know is how ive seen the world change in the past 40 some years. When I was little you never heard about homoseuality. Now its thrown in your face and if you dont except it your a hater.

Yes it our life time things have changed...if you look at the over all history of mankind though you see it going from one extreme to the other. Things get morally bad and usually the nation either falls...things go into chasio so everyone decides being more conversative will save the people...so they swing back the other way...eventually things start going bad again...and the cycle continues. While WE never heard of homosexuality out in the open IN OUR time..it was common in the disciples time. That is my point. They had to deal with things much worse then we have had to deal with. Things could get as bad as they were in their time...I don't know...but eventually it will start swinging the other way again.


Divorce happened but it was still viewed as shameful. Now its the in thing to do.

Divorce was extremely common in Jesus' time. This is why He addressed it as He did.

Matthew 5:31
“Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=005

Verse 31. Whosoever shall put away his wife
The Jewish doctors gave great license in the matter of divorce. Among them, a man might divorce his wife if she displeased him even in the dressing of his victuals!

Rabbi Akiba said, "If any man saw a woman handsomer than his own wife, he might put his wife away; because it is said in the law, If she find not favour in his eyes." Deuteronomy 24:1.

Josephus, the celebrated Jewish historian, in his Life, tells us, with the utmost coolness and indifference, "About this time I put away my wife, who had borne me three children, not being pleased with her manners."

These two cases are sufficient to show to what a scandalous and criminal excess this matter was carried among the Jews. However, it was allowed by the school of Shammai, that no man was to put away his wife unless for adultery. The school of Hillel gave much greater license.


We have porn stars on prime time tv sitting around a talk show like opra talking about penis sizes.

As I pointed out the TV can be turned off. the things Paul and the other saw were in plain site.


You cant let your children out of your site for the fear of some child molester grabbing them. etc, etc.

I don't think its that bad! I mean its not like children are being kidnapped constantly...not sure where you are getting that. Of course we have to keep an eye on them but I feel safe in letting my son ride his bike around here or to a friends house.


then our court systems side with the criminals. the psychology anymore is there not accountable for their actions, its someone esles fault.

Some times yes that happens..but the court in the disciples day were no less better...otherwise none of them would have been killed.


Yes sin was bad in the old times but the biggest difference is its glorified today.

I think you need to re-read my post....


people take pride in sinning. And back in the old days there wasnt the means of communication we have today. where some misguided individual can hook up easy with others. The Corinthian's Paul dealt with had SPIRITUAL PRIDE while a man in the church was sleeping with his step mom. They had no shame or guilt. If people didn't glorify sin back then Paul wouldn't have wrote Romans 1:18-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:%2018-32%20;&version=51;)


Small things like calling adults by there last name. Mr Smith doesnt happen anymore.

I am called by my last name by the children my son plays with and by the children at his school and the teachers...as I call them by their last names. Where do you live anyway?


dressing appropreate to school. long pants and a shirt, or skirt have been replaced with short shorts tank tops sandles.

Schools don't allow tank tops or shorts that are too short...most schools have a dress code that has to be abided by. I am not sure what's wrong with wearing sandals since Jesus and the disciples worn sandals . While they still dress in ways that are not modest by our standards they still got an eye full back then too! Otherwise there would be no scriptures about it.

1 Timothy 2:9
And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.

That women adorn themselves (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=002)
καιταςγοναικαςεςκαταστολη κοαμιω. The apostle seems to refer here to different parts of the Grecian and Roman dress. The στολη, stola, seems to have been originally very simple. It was a long piece of cloth, doubled in the middle, and sewed up on both sides, leaving room only for the arms; at the top, a piece was cut out, or a slit made, through which the head passed. It hung down to the feet, both before and behind, and was girded with the zona round the body, just under the breasts. It was sometimes made with, sometimes without, sleeves; and, that it might sit the better, it was gathered on each shoulder with a band or buckle. Some of the Greek women wore them open on each side, from the bottom up above the knee, so as to discover a part of the thigh. These were termed φαινομηριδες, showers (discoverers) of the thigh; but it was, in general, only young girls or immodest women who wore them thus.


My thing is it just seem sinful things have become so acceptable these days. that for the common person there is no right or wrong. its whatever they feel.

Now you know how Jesus felt.


Marriage is a good example.. Were susposed to court , get married, stay together til death. having children is a blessing from God.

Already address how divorce was rampant back then.


But today most people have had several sexual partners, before marriage dive into marriage on a whim and dont want children because they are more concerend about material possesions. Then when things dont work out they get divorced and see nothing wrong with it.

They didn't see anything wrong with it then either.

God bless

quiet dove
Oct 22nd 2008, 12:58 AM
[quote]

Yes it our life time things have changed...if you look at the over all history of mankind though you see it going from one extreme to the other. Things get morally bad and usually the nation either falls...things go into chasio so everyone decides being more conversative will save the people...so they swing back the other way...eventually things start going bad again...and the cycle continues. While WE never heard of homosexuality out in the open IN OUR time..it was common in the disciples time. That is my point. They had to deal with things much worse then we have had to deal with. Things could get as bad as they were in their time...I don't know...but eventually it will start swinging the other way again.



Divorce was extremely common in Jesus' time. This is why He addressed it as He did.



Food for thought moonglow. This has struck me several times while thumbing through here reading post. Say the sin is no worse than in different times past, and I you say, likei in the times of the disciples it was worse but then made a swing to the better. The Gospel was instrumental in the changes for the better.

What if the change for the better is not founded upon the true Gospel. What if it were founded, this time, on some ecumenical "faith", whatever that turns out to be? A false peace and safety, and morals, moral won't be what they seem if sin is not sin in the mind of many.

danield
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:10 AM
Moonglow I think you have a different perception of what occurred in Roman days than what I have read.

As I pointed out the TV can be turned off. the things Paul and the other saw were in plain site.
Brothels were handled much like they are handled in Europe today. They had Red light districts where people would go to indulge in those activities. I am sure they had street walkers, but they were out to get business. I highly doubt they would roam where families were raising their children because they wanted customers. Also, the people of days past were not all immoral like you are thinking. TV has a good way of glamorizing the worst in people at times especially depicting Rome.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:12 AM
[QUOTE=danield;1835176]I think sin is much worse now than it was back in Roman days. I have read several books on the culture of the times, and some things that we have seen on TV are really not representative to the actual culture of the day.

I am not going by what I saw on TV...I am going by historical evidence of which I posted links too. You don't think the pagan sacrificing their babies and children back then was that bad? How bad does it have to be before you decide its bad? Many of the pagans did this. People use to lay their new born babies at the feet of the statues of Nero to honor him and let the babies just die. Not sure what you are reading.



For instance, I believe that Moonglow mentioned that homosexuality was ramped during the day of Nero. And indeed, there were people who were homosexual, but it defiantly was not encouraged as the proper way to go through life.

Who didn't encourage it? if the Roman leaders are doing it why not the common people?


Case in point, they gave tax breaks as they do today to married men and women because they wanted to encourage children. You see they needed a larger population to fill the ranks of their military so they needed to push heterosexual families. I know we have seen many films that depict the emperors as homosexual exploiters, but we have to look at the source. Nero was plain crazy, and he did not represent the masses as were many other leaders of their day. This could be debated, but the key part of this in my mind is that they did not export homosexuality as an accepted way of life and we do.

Homosexuality was rampant in Paul's culture; fourteen out of the first fifteen Roman emperors were bisexual or homosexual. I had that in my first post. This isn't just about Nero by any means and men rarely had one sexual parter either...so if they were married and had alot of children encouraged through a tax break (which makes no sense to me since they had no birth control then...so it was kind of hard to avoid getting pregnant) they still could be engaging in homosexual activity. You act as if being married would stop them from having other sexual relationships.. and many of the pagan nations allowed for more then one wife. Look at our own OT...the men had alot of wives! The commentaries I am quoting say homosexuality WAS acceptable..this is why Paul has such a hard time getting the new believers to understand it was wrong! The commentaries get their sources from historical evidence...they aren't just guessing...they know.


Secondly, Crime was harshly punished to keep everyone in line. For instance if someone robbed for what ever reason they could easily have been crucified just outside the city streets to make a point of not stealing. It was quite effective in keeping everyone in line. This was not done in the name of Christ, but law and order was kept efficiently.

So this mush explain why the Jewish tax collectors were able to steal from their own people and get away with it. :hmm:

They did it to control and oppress and terrorize the Jews! Why do you think the Jews were looking for a Messiah so desperately? one that would fight against the Romans and gain their freedom. The Romans were cruel vicious people..it had nothing to do with keeping the crime rate down.


Most of the population was poor so greed was typically isolated to the centralized roman power structure. Families were close because they had to produce crops in order to survive. Times were hard so people did not live a long life. If you were in your mid to late 30’s you were considered a person who has lived a long life.

Roman citizens did not work in the fields but lived in the city. Ever watch the History channel? The ones that were poor and oppressed were the Jews. And yes life was very hard for them. But yet we see many living to be very old...we read that in the bible! It seems like people lived to be pretty old actually.


I am sure adultery was popular back then just as it is today, but one thing we have over the Romans is that today we have ways of concealing our actions’ much better than in days of past.

Not hard for a women to lie and say the baby is her husband's then and now. Only then they didn't have DNA testing.. but it did happen then and they got away with it. Whether they did or not though isn't really the issue though...is it?


Birth control helps conceal these acts today, and if you catch an STD, there is always a shot waiting for you to cover some of the common ailments, and then there is always abortion or just out right deceit about who the baby daddy is. I am not stupid to think that adultery did not occur back then, but what I am suggesting is that there were real repercussions to mistakes back then that do not exists today. Remember that stoning was an accepted punishment for people who were caught in adultery. Today, if you have an affair, it can easily be blamed on the other spouse for mistreating you in one way or another. I am not suggesting staying in an abusive marriage, but what I am suggesting is that many people have affairs because they grow tired of their partner, and then blame the act on their spouse because they did not get to go out to dinner like they should have. In any event, I think it is much more widespread. Case in point, look at how many preachers are caught in adultery today, and some are even caught in homosexual affairs. Now can you imagine the head Rabbi in Roman days being caught in a homosexual relationship? Christ never mentioned that they were associated in that type of sin, and I think he fully exposed them of their wrong doing in his day.

Ok I think you are confusing some issues. God knows every sin anyone does...whether they are more able to hide it today then they were back then isn't the issue. The issue is...the topic is...is sin worse today then then? Are more people sinning or doing worse things then back then? It doesn't matter if its hidden or not as we know the bible says all sin will be exposed! If nothing else on judgment day.


As far as idol worshipping, I think today most people in America worship money much more than they do God. Money becomes an idol when we put it first in our lives. Also, the insignia “in god we trust” on our currency is a reference to many gods. I want to put this so everyone can see this clearly. Our nation is founded on freedom in religion, and even though Christianity was the predominant religion 200 years ago, it is not so today. We are now witnessing many branches of different sect’s crop up out of nowhere. Many do have roots tied to Christianity, but their practices are nothing but foreign to most Christians of any day.

The bible addresses the dangers of love of money so apparently it was happening then too.

Last year my son was studying American history...I think you would be surprised at how many different sects of Christians were first here...


Then we have Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism, Atheism, and any tax free status organization that can be thought up. I think Christianity is further along today than it was in Roman days for sure, but we do have our fair share of idols out there.

American was founded on the freedom of religion..meaning they wanted ANYONE of any faith to have the freedom to come here and safely worship however they wanted too. This was NEVER a 'only Christians allowed' country. Not ever! That is why that bill is in place so the government cannot force anyone to worship whom they decide we should worship as had happened in England in their state run churches. There was one kind of church and no others were allowed.


Then there is the issue of exportation of immorality. Just look at our media outlets that sensationalize immorality. There is no need to go into detail, but we all know that this is an anchor to our society. All in all I say we are shaping up perfectly as described in many end times references of the Bible. I could go on and on about our immorality, but surely everyone sees it just as I do. There is no doubt in my mind that sin is worse today than in the disciple’s time.

So in spite of all the evidence I have given you don't believe it was worse then? I have to say I am very surprised! No one is throwing babies alive into fire here...no president is marrying a boy in our nation...we can walk down the streets without seeing people in ropes and chains that are slaves and we don't see live sex acts on the steps of temples...but you think its worse now then back then?


God bless

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:15 AM
Moonglow I think you have a different perception of what occurred in Roman days than what I have read.
.
Brothels were handled much like they are handled in Europe today. They had Red light districts where people would go to indulge in those activities. I am sure they had street walkers, but they were out to get business. I highly doubt they would roam where families were raising their children because they wanted customers. Also, the people of days past were not all immoral like you are thinking. TV has a good way of glamorizing the worst in people at times especially depicting Rome.

Ok let me try one more time. I did NOT get this information from the TV...I am quoting the bible! And bible commentaries who get their information from historical documents. Any other links go to bible history sites.

God bless

danield
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:16 AM
[quote=moonglow;1835273]

Food for thought moonglow. This has struck me several times while thumbing through here reading post. Say the sin is no worse than in different times past, and I you say, likei in the times of the disciples it was worse but then made a swing to the better. The Gospel was instrumental in the changes for the better.

What if the change for the better is not founded upon the true Gospel. What if it were founded, this time, on some ecumenical "faith", whatever that turns out to be? A false peace and safety, and morals, moral won't be what they seem if sin is not sin in the mind of many.

QD before we move the discussion in another direction let us first explore Moonglows original thought. I for one am certain that immorality is greater today than in the days of the disciples. Yes the sins are the same, but the level of immorality goes much deeper in our society.

danield
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:44 AM
I had a huge post written up and my computer frooze!!!!! grrr

cnw
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:00 AM
I hate it when my puter freezes up, means it must have been a great post and Satan didn't want it there.

I think historically "bad" was different. I mean we don't throw Christians to gladiators in the US. We have abortion, which I think is just like Molech worship. Sexual sin back then was in your face gross in comparison to now. The temples of prostitutes were for homosexuals and the like. All peoples went to them whether married or not, male or female. The bath houses were sexual.
ya it was bad! Today we see bad differently, but the Bible says there is no new sin under the sun. Christ will come when he chooses to come and I can only hope it is soon, cause from my standpoint it is horrible!

good posts moon

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:54 AM
[quiet dove;

Food for thought moonglow. This has struck me several times while thumbing through here reading post. Say the sin is no worse than in different times past, and I you say, likei in the times of the disciples it was worse but then made a swing to the better. The Gospel was instrumental in the changes for the better.

What if the change for the better is not founded upon the true Gospel. What if it were founded, this time, on some ecumenical "faith", whatever that turns out to be? A false peace and safety, and morals, moral won't be what they seem if sin is not sin in the mind of many.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I totally missed this before, QD.

The whole point in Christ coming was so we would no longer be slaves to sin! People could not just stop sinning then. All the nations around the Jews and the Hebrews in the OT were pagans and all engaged in sexual orgies and human sacrifices when worshiping their gods...murder, adultery, witch craft and on and on was very rampant...common and acceptable. One time I did a search on the names of some of these gods in the OT and they all basically came back to the name of a demon or the devil. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised!

As Jesus said,

John 16:33
I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.”

We have the ability to be free from sin!

John 8:32
And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

This peace in Jesus...this freedom FROM sin of course isn't false. The verse you are thinking of has to do with the unbelievers saying peace and safety and sudden destruction comes on them! They seek peace from outside things...they look at the world and may think oh time are good..we can relax and be safe now...

We aren't to seek peace in this world. The world is always going to be a bad sinful place until Christ comes back simply because far too many choose to stay a slave to sin.


danield
QD before we move the discussion in another direction let us first explore Moonglows original thought. I for one am certain that immorality is greater today than in the days of the disciples. Yes the sins are the same, but the level of immorality goes much deeper in our society.

How is sin deeper ...?


danield I had a huge post written up and my computer frooze!!!!! grrr

Sorry! I don't know about you all but the board is loading really slow for me today...and I can lose posts when it does that. If I see a reply is going too slowly I copy it quickly...so if it times out, I can go back...if its gone I can just paste in there. Learned to do that from loosing too many posts on here before! :cool:


cnw I hate it when my puter freezes up, means it must have been a great post and Satan didn't want it there.

I think historically "bad" was different. I mean we don't throw Christians to gladiators in the US. We have abortion, which I think is just like Molech worship. Sexual sin back then was in your face gross in comparison to now. The temples of prostitutes were for homosexuals and the like. All peoples went to them whether married or not, male or female. The bath houses were sexual.
ya it was bad! Today we see bad differently, but the Bible says there is no new sin under the sun. Christ will come when he chooses to come and I can only hope it is soon, cause from my standpoint it is horrible!

good posts moon

Thanks cnw. Yea we see it differently because most people only look at their lifetime and not the history of people. I made the same mistake before too...I used to hate studying history in school...so boring. But then they make you memories dates and names of places and people..since I started studying bible history and world history I find it very interesting indeed! And yes the bible says there is nothing new under the sun!

Ecclesiastes 1:9
History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new.

The bible never says some new types of sins will come about...it says:

Matthew 24:11-13

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

Verse 11. False prophets
Also were to be raised up; such as Simon Magus and his followers; and the false apostles complained of by St. Paul, 2 Corinthians 11:13, who were deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Such also were Hymeneus and Philetus, 2 Timothy 2:17,18.

Verse 12. The love of many shall wax cold.
By reason of these trials and persecutions from without, and those apostasies and false prophets from within, the love of many to Christ and his doctrine, and to one another, shall grow cold. Some openly deserting the faith, as Matthew 24:10; others corrupting it, as Matthew 24:11; and others growing indifferent about it, ; 24:12. Even at this early period there seems to have been a very considerable defection in several Christian Churches; see Galatians 3:1-4; ; 2 Thessalonians 3:1, ; 2 Timothy 1:15.
*************************
This happened in Paul's day! Is in the scriptures...the verses listed.

God bless

quiet dove
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:26 AM
Sorry I totally missed this before, QD.

The whole point in Christ coming was so we would no longer be slaves to sin! People could not just stop sinning then. All the nations around the Jews and the Hebrews in the OT were pagans and all engaged in sexual orgies and human sacrifices when worshiping their gods...murder, adultery, witch craft and on and on was very rampant...common and acceptable. One time I did a search on the names of some of these gods in the OT and they all basically came back to the name of a demon or the devil. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised!

As Jesus said,

John 16:33
I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.”

We have the ability to be free from sin!

John 8:32
And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

This peace in Jesus...this freedom FROM sin of course isn't false. The verse you are thinking of has to do with the unbelievers saying peace and safety and sudden destruction comes on them! They seek peace from outside things...they look at the world and may think oh time are good..we can relax and be safe now...

We aren't to seek peace in this world. The world is always going to be a bad sinful place until Christ comes back simply because far too many choose to stay a slave to sin.


I understand the verse I quoted was pertaining to unbelievers and that we, through Christ are free from bondage, I think I didn't convey my thoughts very well.

We are in a time where they will no longer endure sound doctrine, there in lies the issue and why if it is not worse now than in the past, it will be, because of the rejection of Christ and there fore freedom from bondage.

With sound doctrine being rejected and the false peace and safety, what are the chances of it actually taking a true turn for the better?

danield
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:32 AM
I briefly scanned you resources but I need to read them in depth. As a dyslexic, it does take some time to go thought lengthy articles. I can point you to several books that I have read that document exactly what I have saying. Give me time to read the links in your posts so that I can show differently.

Who didn't encourage it? if the Roman leaders are doing it why not the common people?
This is a common misconception of the Roman society. The people of the day had great need for other people to do common labor. They did not have an industrialized labor market to complete work. No back hoes, trucks, it was good old sweat that got the job done back then. They needed people so the government encouraged families and children which discouraged homosexuality. This is documented through taxation papers on people though out the roman society. Yes we see power figures indulging in Homosexuality, but that does not mean the masses did.

Homosexuality was rampant in Paul's culture; fourteen out of the first fifteen Roman emperors were bisexual or homosexual. I had that in my first post. This isn't just about Nero by any means and men rarely had one sexual parter either...so if they were married and had alot of children encouraged through a tax break (which makes no sense to me since they had no birth control then...so it was kind of hard to avoid getting pregnant) they still could be engaging in homosexual activity. You act as if being married would stop them from having other sexual relationships.. and many of the pagan nations allowed for more then one wife. Look at our own OT...the men had alot of wives! The commentaries I am quoting say homosexuality WAS acceptable..this is why Paul has such a hard time getting the new believers to understand it was wrong! The commentaries get their sources from historical evidence...they aren't just guessing...they know.
The historical references I am reading cite things a bit different. They do not claim that there was not homosexuality in that society, but it just was not pushed as the way to live. Most of the emperors rose from a concentrated group of people (a product of incest) very close to the top of society. Many of them were just plain crazy as we all know. Some of them were brilliant men, and as you pointed out they did have gay influence in their life. But those men did not represent the ordinary man of days past.
There is a difference in Rome the city and the Roman empire. Rome was the center of wealth and of course more indulges took place there. Their empire was a bit different. It is like comparing Wall Street executives to the average Joe on the street.

So this mush explain why the Jewish tax collectors were able to steal from their own people and get away with it
These tax collectors were representatives of the Roman Empire. It shows how much control they had on the population. They could do pretty much anything they wanted including tax people up to 80% of their income, and people did not miss a payment in fear of having strict enforcements and imprisonment placed on them and their families..

They did it to control and oppress and terrorize the Jews! Why do you think the Jews were looking for a Messiah so desperately? one that would fight against the Romans and gain their freedom. The Romans were cruel vicious people..it had nothing to do with keeping the crime rate down.
Agreed, I think you are just starting to understand the process of the Roman society. Their tactics were to conquer, and assimilate into their society through force. They did not let anything slide. It was a very hard life, and they did not tolerate crime… If they caught a tax collector skimming money from the government, the Tax collector would be put to death. I will also mention that their assimulation allowed for current customs and religions to flourish. The romans loved gods, any god. It also helped in satisifing new citizens to pay taxes.

Roman citizens did not work in the fields but lived in the city. Ever watch the History channel? The ones that were poor and oppressed were the Jews. And yes life was very hard for them. But yet we see many living to be very old...we read that in the bible! It seems like people lived to be pretty old actually.
Of course many Romans lived in the cities, but there were also people who lived under Roman influence that worked the fields. Also note that not all Roman citizens were rich. Remember Paul was a Roman citizen and he was a leather worker by trade. He might have been well off but he learned his trade somewhere before he became a Christian. Everything had to be done by hand, so their had to be a lot of sweat going on to get the job done by both slave and owner. I used the term field loosely to emphasis the sweat going on in the day. But the final point to this is that they needed people to get the job done whatever the job was, and the only way to create people was for hetersexual relationships to be encouraged. Romans encouraged marriage also because it produced less conflict in politics. Men wanted to come home to their wives and family as opposed to stirring up trouble for the empire. In search of Paul shows this time and time again in their research. A very eye opening book I might say. It was far better than the history channel because they went in debth at ancient manuscripts and relics to prove his points.


Not hard for a women to lie and say the baby is her husband's then and now. Only then they didn't have DNA testing.. but it did happen then and they got away with it. Whether they did or not though isn't really the issue though...is it?
Ok I think you are confusing some issues. God knows every sin anyone does...whether they are more able to hide it today then they were back then isn't the issue. The issue is...the topic is...is sin worse today then then? Are more people sinning or doing worse things then back then? It doesn't matter if its hidden or not as we know the bible says all sin will be exposed! If nothing else on judgment day.


It is an issue moonglow. People do not think about judgment day as you and I do. People think of the here and now, not of things in the after life. In that day if you were caught in adultery, you could be put to death, and it often occurred. Today, if you stray it is not a big deal. In fact it often becomes the fault of the person who was betrayed. I will say that back in Roman day’s men had a much easier way of hiding things, and the woman’s rights were not held in as high regard. Today, we have both sexes equally pursuing the sin as vigorously as the other. I do not know how to convince you if you can not see that if you were caught of in the act of adultery, you very well could have been put to death by stoning as opposed to just getting a quickie divorce as is done today. Certainly the thought had to cross people’s minds if death might be involved as a consequence in their actions. It was a punishment in the here and now back then of which everyone could have related to.

The bible addresses the dangers of love of money so apparently it was happening then too.
It was, but the difference in today and in Roman days is that few had money, and many were slaves. Now everyone has a goal of getting more money. Again I am not suggesting a healthy work ethic is a sin, but many put attaining money above the wellbeing of others as a goal in their lives. I have seen this countless times in my life.

Last year my son was studying American history...I think you would be surprised at how many different sects of Christians were first here...
I am fully aware of the mix of Christians coming from Europe in our beginning.

American was founded on the freedom of religion..meaning they wanted ANYONE of any faith to have the freedom to come here and safely worship however they wanted too. This was NEVER a 'only Christians allowed' country. Not ever! That is why that bill is in place so the government cannot force anyone to worship whom they decide we should worship as had happened in England in their state run churches. There was one kind of church and no others were allowed.
Well Moonglow, Our government was indeed founded on the freedom of religion granted in our constitution to make sure that no one centralized religion could dominate our land. I understand their problem, but the act was more founded on the flight from conflict between the Catholic Church and the Protestant movement. You see Europe had been divided by faith between those two religions for some time, and our forefathers had seen its destruction first hand. Catholics had burned Protestants at the stake, and Protestants had burned to the ground many of the Catholics personal homes and property. It caused major civil unrest in much of Europe. They did not want this to happen in our fledgling government. So freedom of religion was included in our constitution. Now this does not mean that we were founded by principles other than the Jewish and Christian faiths. In fact, I would say that most of the people who settled here had extremely strong ties to Christianity. Just look at the Salem witch trials at how intense they were about anything that was not in line with Christianity. Obviously we all think they went way too far, but it did exist in their day. They also spent all day on Sunday in Church, not just an hour like we are use to. It is no secret that the People of America had deep faith rooted in its foundation. Yes there were people who were atheist, but they were only sprinkled in their midst of a sea of Christians and were tolerated it in order to maintain everyone’s ability to be protestant, Jewish and catholic alike.

So in spite of all the evidence I have given you don't believe it was worse then? I have to say I am very surprised! No one is throwing babies alive into fire here...no president is marrying a boy in our nation...we can walk down the streets without seeing people in ropes and chains that are slaves and we don't see live sex acts on the steps of temples...but you think its worse now then back then?
Please understand that not only have I watched the history channel, but I have read several books on the subject that compliment what I am talking about. And the authors are well respected researchers in antiquities. Some of the published books are in Search of Paul, divided by Faith, Cities of God, and the latest book I am reading is God and Empire which is turning out to be very fascinating.

I assure you Moonglow that I have researched the subject thoroughly. There is a difference in our two societies. Instead of throwing babies into fires we see people throwing babies into garbage cans. Abortions are huge in our society. Just last year Senator Foley resigned because he was soliciting gay sex from college aids. Who is the gay senator who had a boyfriend in the Fannie Mae? Oh yea he was Barney Frank who is still in power today. They were open companions…. And we have pornography in countless homes… No slaves in chains now though, and the brutality is not on the same level as it was back then, but greed is very abundant in most of our society. Abundant drugs to our youth have fueled a new level of disobedience to not only parents, but to our general law enforcements. All we have to do is turn on our TV to see the latest shooting spree. Children did not use to do this Moonglow. Is it worse? In the 50’s teachers had a problem with students talking in classrooms, chewing gum, or even smoking cigarettes. Today, they have fear of teenage pregnancy, Drug use, and extreme violence on school property. Our society is falling away from the values God bestowed on us, and it is clear to me.

It is late and I will read your reference tomorrow Moonglow. I am sorry to be negative about this but I feel I am looking at the truth as opposed to just being negative. Have a great night.

danield
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:57 AM
How is sin deeper ...?
I did not mean for you to take this as sin being deeper, but at every level of our society we are seeing a falling away from God and his ways.

wrldstrman
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:23 AM
well the one big difference reguarding sin is. before God gave Moses the ten commandments there was no written moral code for living, so people lived how they belived best. During the roman times the gospel was spread by word of mouth so the gospel wasnt in print form for everyone to read.. But in todays society the Bible is mass produced where pretty much everyone has access to it. people of the last century have in print Gods ways. The biggest point I wanted to make is I know there was sin as far back as Adam. But at least to me where ever I go anymore there is just a feeling in the air. I mean a cold feeling that people are just so hateful anymore.

A example. Me and my wife went to our local store. Its a small town just like any normal town. When we pulled up to the stop sign at the end of the road some guy on the sidewalk flipped us the bird and started yelling profinaty at us. All we did was stop at the stop sign. The week prior aparentlly we were driving to slow for the car behind us. when we pulled into the parking lot, the guy pulls in beside us gets out and starts running toward our car. Im pretty blessed that Im a pretty large guy and when I got out he decided maybe it was best to go back to his car. But what would of happened if it was just my wife.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:20 PM
I understand the verse I quoted was pertaining to unbelievers and that we, through Christ are free from bondage, I think I didn't convey my thoughts very well.

We are in a time where they will no longer endure sound doctrine, there in lies the issue and why if it is not worse now than in the past, it will be, because of the rejection of Christ and there fore freedom from bondage.

With sound doctrine being rejected and the false peace and safety, what are the chances of it actually taking a true turn for the better?

Ok I see! You want the long or short answer? :lol:

Considering some of the things you have shared with us on the board...some false teachings the Lord helped you get out of...I don't think I have to tell you that this IS happening. This is the point of my thread which you got...:) People shouldn't be looking to see if sin has increased...they usually look at the nonbelievers anyway...the nation they live in or the city or those they encounter everyday...or go by the news or what not. They need to be watching the church! And what is going on in the churches to gauge things.

I looked up David Guzik's Commentaries on this passage to see if he had anything interesting to say and he made some good points. While I don't know how old his commentary he...as he doesn't mention the mega feel good churches, he does mention the Mormon's which made me think also of the Jehovah's Witnesses also. In doing a quick search I found the Jehovah's Witnesses were founded in 1884...originally the Zion's Watch Tower in 1879..the Mormon church was founded in 1830. Compared with history since Christ...these are very new religions. The Seventh-day Adventist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church)(abbreviated "Adventist"[3]) Church is a Christian denomination which is distinguished mainly by its observance of Saturday, the original seventh day of the Judeo-Christian week, as the Sabbath. The denomination grew out of the Millerite movement in the United States during the middle part of the 19th century and was formally established in 1863.

Now we have that Lakeland Florida movement which isn't even allowed to be discussed on the board but only in a social group. Things ARE getting bad. And have been a long time now. I think it helps to try to not focus on our lifetime only but to view things the way God does. He sees ALL history. Something that started a couple of hundred years ago is nothing to Him. That is why I say the JW, Mormons, etc are new. Certainly not new to us.

Now we have churches where I heard the other day people are even vomiting when 'moved' by the Holy Spirit. People acting drunk...laughing like they lost their minds...barking like a dog! I mean where is any of this in scripture? I honestly don't know how they can justify any of this.

As someone posted on one of my thread..maybe on here...the verse where Jesus says when I return will I find any faith at all? I honestly don't think many of these Christians will recognize Jesus if He walked up to them! They are so totally blinded by being busy 'feeling' and 'experiences' what they think is the Holy Spirit...they get a charge out of it I guess. How you can feel good by throwing up though I have no clue and I would feel pretty stupid barking!

When I read about the struggles in the early churches...while they deal with sin in the church and false teaching too...I do not see them dealing with things like this..that verse you posted though covers well what we are seeing today. They certainly didn't have homosexual pastors! Could you image Paul's writings on something like that? I think he would have had a stroke!

I guess the only question is...how bad will it get?

So you hit the nail on the head on this one! :)

God bless

jesuslover1968
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:36 PM
I understand the verse I quoted was pertaining to unbelievers and that we, through Christ are free from bondage, I think I didn't convey my thoughts very well.

We are in a time where they will no longer endure sound doctrine, there in lies the issue and why if it is not worse now than in the past, it will be, because of the rejection of Christ and there fore freedom from bondage.

With sound doctrine being rejected and the false peace and safety, what are the chances of it actually taking a true turn for the better?



This kind of reminds me of how it must have been in Noah's day...
Noah's weekly forecast: it's going to rain. The people's response...nothing. They were oblivious to what was happening right before their eyes because they were so into their own lives and what they were doing, and how their sin was not as bad as so and so and on and on...But I sometimes think of all those people as the rain began to sweep them away. How they must have tried to cling to that ark. How they must have called out to God...but it was too late.
QD, I know what you are saying, and you may be right. If there is no sound doctrine, then truth is just as bad as the lie, so to speak. I believe the 'professing Church' is the main cause of what we see going on today. It will have to answer for the leading astray of it's sheep. I do however believe that the true Church is strong and growing.
In answer to the OP. I don't think the sins of today are the reason that the end is near. I think the end is near because God's plan will not be thwarted. He said it would come. He told us how, and gave us a pretty good idea of when, and God does not lie. He does not change. I don't think our sins are worse, or better, than at any other time. I think to God, sin is sin, and it won't be tolerated, no matter how big or small humans deem it. I do know that enough is enough, and when God decides it is, that's it.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:21 PM
I briefly scanned you resources but I need to read them in depth. As a dyslexic, it does take some time to go thought lengthy articles. I can point you to several books that I have read that document exactly what I have saying. Give me time to read the links in your posts so that I can show differently.


I also have dyslexic...ain't it fun...:rolleyes: (not). Sometimes I still misread things...so if I misread something of yours just tell me. :)


This is a common misconception of the Roman society. The people of the day had great need for other people to do common labor. They did not have an industrialized labor market to complete work. No back hoes, trucks, it was good old sweat that got the job done back then. They needed people so the government encouraged families and children which discouraged homosexuality. This is documented through taxation papers on people though out the roman society. Yes we see power figures indulging in Homosexuality, but that does not mean the masses did.

Ok...as I said I am going by what the bible says! If it wasn't an issue...I don't think it would have needed to be addressed as harshly as it was and more then once.



The historical references I am reading cite things a bit different. They do not claim that there was not homosexuality in that society, but it just was not pushed as the way to live. Most of the emperors rose from a concentrated group of people (a product of incest) very close to the top of society. Many of them were just plain crazy as we all know. Some of them were brilliant men, and as you pointed out they did have gay influence in their life. But those men did not represent the ordinary man of days past.
There is a difference in Rome the city and the Roman empire. Rome was the center of wealth and of course more indulges took place there. Their empire was a bit different. It is like comparing Wall Street executives to the average Joe on the street.

These tax collectors were representatives of the Roman Empire. It shows how much control they had on the population. They could do pretty much anything they wanted including tax people up to 80% of their income, and people did not miss a payment in fear of having strict enforcements and imprisonment placed on them and their families..

Agreed, I think you are just starting to understand the process of the Roman society. Their tactics were to conquer, and assimilate into their society through force. They did not let anything slide. It was a very hard life, and they did not tolerate crime… If they caught a tax collector skimming money from the government, the Tax collector would be put to death. I will also mention that their assimulation allowed for current customs and religions to flourish. The romans loved gods, any god. It also helped in satisifing new citizens to pay taxes.

Of course many Romans lived in the cities, but there were also people who lived under Roman influence that worked the fields. Also note that not all Roman citizens were rich. Remember Paul was a Roman citizen and he was a leather worker by trade. He might have been well off but he learned his trade somewhere before he became a Christian. Everything had to be done by hand, so their had to be a lot of sweat going on to get the job done by both slave and owner. I used the term field loosely to emphasis the sweat going on in the day. But the final point to this is that they needed people to get the job done whatever the job was, and the only way to create people was for hetersexual relationships to be encouraged. Romans encouraged marriage also because it produced less conflict in politics. Men wanted to come home to their wives and family as opposed to stirring up trouble for the empire. In search of Paul shows this time and time again in their research. A very eye opening book I might say. It was far better than the history channel because they went in debth at ancient manuscripts and relics to prove his points.

Thanks for the information. :)


It is an issue moonglow. People do not think about judgment day as you and I do. People think of the here and now, not of things in the after life. In that day if you were caught in adultery, you could be put to death, and it often occurred. Today, if you stray it is not a big deal. In fact it often becomes the fault of the person who was betrayed. I will say that back in Roman day’s men had a much easier way of hiding things, and the woman’s rights were not held in as high regard.

I think one of the things that possibly you and I are getting confused on here is switching the topic back and forth between what the Roman's did and what the Jews did. As far as I know the Romans didn't stone anyone for committing adultery. They didn't live under the religious laws the Jews did. And as easy as it was for a man to divorce his wife (in regards to the Jews)...why commit adultery when he could just leave her at the drop of a hat and marry someone else?


Today, we have both sexes equally pursuing the sin as vigorously as the other.

you really don't think that was an issue then? In regards with the Jews or Gentiles? That women didn't go after men? If that were true, then why all the warnings in even the OT?

Proverbs 7
6 For at the window of my house
I looked through my lattice,
7 And saw among the simple,
I perceived among the youths,
A young man devoid of understanding,
8 Passing along the street near her corner;
And he took the path to her house
9 In the twilight, in the evening,
In the black and dark night.
10 And there a woman met him,
With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.
11 She was loud and rebellious,
Her feet would not stay at home.
12 At times she was outside, at times in the open square,
Lurking at every corner.
13 So she caught him and kissed him;
With an impudent face she said to him:
14 “ I have peace offerings with me;
Today I have paid my vows.
15 So I came out to meet you,
Diligently to seek your face,
And I have found you.
16 I have spread my bed with tapestry,
Colored coverings of Egyptian linen.
17 I have perfumed my bed
With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until morning;
Let us delight ourselves with love.
19 For my husband is not at home;
He has gone on a long journey;
20 He has taken a bag of money with him,
And will come home on the appointed day.”
21 With her enticing speech she caused him to yield,
With her flattering lips she seduced him.
22 Immediately he went after her, as an ox goes to the slaughter,
Or as a fool to the correction of the stocks,
23 Till an arrow struck his liver.
As a bird hastens to the snare,
He did not know it would cost his life.
24 Now therefore, listen to me, my children;
Pay attention to the words of my mouth:
25 Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways,
Do not stray into her paths;
26 For she has cast down many wounded,
And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell,
Descending to the chambers of death.



I do not know how to convince you if you can not see that if you were caught of in the act of adultery, you very well could have been put to death by stoning as opposed to just getting a quickie divorce as is done today.

Yes read the information I provided...as it shows the Jews were able to simply give a letter of divorce to their wives over nothing! It was their way of having a quickie divorce..this is why Jesus addresses it because it was so bad then. I posted about it on this post: http://bibleforums.org/showpost.php?p=1835273&postcount=15


Certainly the thought had to cross people’s minds if death might be involved as a consequence in their actions. It was a punishment in the here and now back then of which everyone could have related to.

It was, but the difference in today and in Roman days is that few had money, and many were slaves. Now everyone has a goal of getting more money. Again I am not suggesting a healthy work ethic is a sin, but many put attaining money above the wellbeing of others as a goal in their lives. I have seen this countless times in my life.



Again I think what the Jews did vs what the Roman's did is confusing the issue...as far as I know the Romans didn't stone each other for adultery...but the Jews did. I have no idea how the Roman's handled marriage, divorce or adultery...I was talking about the Jews.
I am fully aware of the mix of Christians coming from Europe in our beginning.


Well Moonglow, Our government was indeed founded on the freedom of religion granted in our constitution to make sure that no one centralized religion could dominate our land. I understand their problem, but the act was more founded on the flight from conflict between the Catholic Church and the Protestant movement. You see Europe had been divided by faith between those two religions for some time, and our forefathers had seen its destruction first hand. Catholics had burned Protestants at the stake, and Protestants had burned to the ground many of the Catholics personal homes and property. It caused major civil unrest in much of Europe. They did not want this to happen in our fledgling government. So freedom of religion was included in our constitution. Now this does not mean that we were founded by principles other than the Jewish and Christian faiths. In fact, I would say that most of the people who settled here had extremely strong ties to Christianity. Just look at the Salem witch trials at how intense they were about anything that was not in line with Christianity.

Now this I have studied probably more then you have in regards to the Salem witch trials...they were NOT in line with Christianity! Only in the OT does it say to burn a witch...why would they follow old Hebrew laws but not the other ones? Why would a Christian be following those hundreds of Jewish laws when scriptures say we are no longer bound by the law? They were not in line with the teachings of Jesus! The man that manipulated the gullible pre-teenagers to falsely accuse very certain people of being witches did it on purpose to have those people killed to get their land. It had nothing to do with Christianity.



Obviously we all think they went way too far, but it did exist in their day. They also spent all day on Sunday in Church, not just an hour like we are use to.

yes they were Puritans.

I
t is no secret that the People of America had deep faith rooted in its foundation. Yes there were people who were atheist, but they were only sprinkled in their midst of a sea of Christians and were tolerated it in order to maintain everyone’s ability to be protestant, Jewish and catholic alike.

Please understand that not only have I watched the history channel, but I have read several books on the subject that compliment what I am talking about. And the authors are well respected researchers in antiquities. Some of the published books are in Search of Paul, divided by Faith, Cities of God, and the latest book I am reading is God and Empire which is turning out to be very fascinating.

Sounds like interesting books. Yes I realize American was founded on Christian principles...I addressed what you said because the way you worded things it sounded as if having other religions where wasn't the initial intent of the USA...when it actually was.


I assure you Moonglow that I have researched the subject thoroughly. There is a difference in our two societies. Instead of throwing babies into fires we see people throwing babies into garbage cans.

That rarely happens and those babies are usually found and live. There is just so comparing that and throwing babies into fire where they never survived and suffered horribly being burned alive! I really don't see how you can even compare the two things...:confused


Abortions are huge in our society.

Yes I know...I am saying what is happening now is no different then the killing of babies in the past.


Just last year Senator Foley resigned because he was soliciting gay sex from college aids. Who is the gay senator who had a boyfriend in the Fannie Mae? Oh yea he was Barney Frank who is still in power today. They were open companions….

Government hasn't been corrupted in the past?


And we have pornography in countless homes… No slaves in chains now though, and the brutality is not on the same level as it was back then, but greed is very abundant in most of our society. Abundant drugs to our youth have fueled a new level of disobedience to not only parents, but to our general law enforcements. All we have to do is turn on our TV to see the latest shooting spree.

No in the past whole villages and cities were raided and everyone was killed by the sword. The weapons of choice doesn't matter much since it still results in death. They also had drugs back then obviously or the bible wouldn't speak of it. Porn was live...


Children did not use to do this Moonglow. Is it worse? In the 50’s teachers had a problem with students talking in classrooms, chewing gum, or even smoking cigarettes. Today, they have fear of teenage pregnancy, Drug use, and extreme violence on school property. Our society is falling away from the values God bestowed on us, and it is clear to me.

This is my point..in going by a short live span we don't see the whole picture! As I told QD every society cycles...they go from one extreme to another then back around again. Before we even had schools children were forced into labor...long hours of labor...until they passed the child labor act. They were treated no more then slaves. They were forced to even fight in wars and kill. We have to look at human history and not just America...we really aren't that important. But human world history to see if things are better or worse. We see those nations that fall into immorality collapse...and neither never come back or rise with stricter morals then slowly get bad again. Look at what is happening in Rome now...first they were the rulers of the world a power pagan nation that fell into such immoral behavior they collapsed...civil war broke out and they nearly fell completely as a nation. They they were overcome by the Christians and became a Christian nation...then become a Catholic nation...Rome was broken up also into many parts and never again to be as powerful...was for a brief time under the terrorism of the Catholics...tortured people to death if they didn't convert and so forth. Now look at them...they are giving away again to being a secular nation and being overcome by the Muslims. America could go that way too but then in order to survive simply because we are killing ourselves by becoming to immoral things may get stricter again. It seems to be a cycle of things.


It is late and I will read your reference tomorrow Moonglow. I am sorry to be negative about this but I feel I am looking at the truth as opposed to just being negative. Have a great night.

That's fine. As I said, I am going by what scriptures say in finding the truth there and historical information. If you can add to that, that is great. :)

God bless

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:35 PM
well the one big difference reguarding sin is. before God gave Moses the ten commandments there was no written moral code for living,so people lived how they belived best.

People still sinned though:
Romans 5
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.




During the roman times the gospel was spread by word of mouth so the gospel wasnt in print form for everyone to read.. But in todays society the Bible is mass produced where pretty much everyone has access to it.

Millions don't have access to it though as in many countries its either against their laws or the bible hasn't been translated to their language. The bible has been translated into 2,287 different languages (http://www.ibs.org/bibles/about/19.php)...there are at least 6,912 (http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november/worldlanguages.htm) languages in this world.



people of the last century have in print Gods ways. The biggest point I wanted to make is I know there was sin as far back as Adam. But at least to me where ever I go anymore there is just a feeling in the air. I mean a cold feeling that people are just so hateful anymore.

I don't know where you live but I am sorry you feel that way. I sure don't get that feeling from people.


A example. Me and my wife went to our local store. Its a small town just like any normal town. When we pulled up to the stop sign at the end of the road some guy on the sidewalk flipped us the bird and started yelling profinaty at us. All we did was stop at the stop sign. The week prior aparentlly we were driving to slow for the car behind us. when we pulled into the parking lot, the guy pulls in beside us gets out and starts running toward our car. Im pretty blessed that Im a pretty large guy and when I got out he decided maybe it was best to go back to his car. But what would of happened if it was just my wife.

What I see is people very stressed out and scared over the encomony right now...and angry about what has happened with the stock market...alot of work lay offs going on. They are upset and very angry with the stock market and the government! Maybe what you are seeing this a reaction from that. I don't know. I live in a town that is fairly large...but I am not seeing people act like this. So sorry you are!

God bless

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:37 PM
This kind of reminds me of how it must have been in Noah's day...
Noah's weekly forecast: it's going to rain. The people's response...nothing. They were oblivious to what was happening right before their eyes because they were so into their own lives and what they were doing, and how their sin was not as bad as so and so and on and on...But I sometimes think of all those people as the rain began to sweep them away. How they must have tried to cling to that ark. How they must have called out to God...but it was too late.
QD, I know what you are saying, and you may be right. If there is no sound doctrine, then truth is just as bad as the lie, so to speak. I believe the 'professing Church' is the main cause of what we see going on today. It will have to answer for the leading astray of it's sheep. I do however believe that the true Church is strong and growing.
In answer to the OP. I don't think the sins of today are the reason that the end is near. I think the end is near because God's plan will not be thwarted. He said it would come. He told us how, and gave us a pretty good idea of when, and God does not lie. He does not change. I don't think our sins are worse, or better, than at any other time. I think to God, sin is sin, and it won't be tolerated, no matter how big or small humans deem it. I do know that enough is enough, and when God decides it is, that's it.

Very true!

I don't know if Christ's return is near or not...the bible only says He will return, not when...I think I am like everyone else...ready anytime! :pp

God bless

danield
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:45 PM
Moonglow I have read your links, and again I do have to say that I am not so sure you are accurate in portraying the true culture of the day by showing how Nero and a few elites acted while they were in power. I know David Guzik states that homosexuality was ramped back in that day, but I think he is looking solely at a small segment of the population to solidify his facts. I challenge his reasoning on a number of fronts. It is like looking at the records of the Catholic Church abusing young boys 2000 years from now and judging the entire Catholic Church based on that snapshot of convicted priests. It is just not a true representation of what the Catholic Church stood for. Let’s look at a good sample of history…

First we can look at Pompey at how life was for the people of the era. We did not see brothels on every corner filled with children prostitutes eagerly waiting to be castrated to join their husbands as David Guzik points out about Nero taking a boy child wife. It is absurd to think that all the population was that sick. Instead in Pompey, we saw many families clinging together in small huts in their last moments of life, mother and child, husband and wives all together in their last moments. There are ruminates of everyday culture on how they lived, cooking for each other, where they slept, and how they interacted in their personal lives. Yes there was prostitution just as it is today, but it was not in their face as you are thinking. There were rough parts of town and then there were decent parts of town just like it is today. Take a walk down the red light district in Amsterdam, and then you can go across town to a café where it is isolated from that type of behavior. It was much like this. And the people in Amsterdam are not bad people, nor is their sins any greater or less than what occurs anywhere else in the world.

One of the big differences in our two cultures is the brutality Rome exhibited for all to see. Rome was extremely brutal in their treatment in humanity. From the gladiators who fought in the coliseum to the prisoners and criminals who hung from crosses to mark their dominion over the population. Prisons were often homes to death ridden diseases because of the condition of their cells. They just did not have anyone thinking about human rights. In fact it was just the opposite because they felt the more brutal they were the more fear they could invoke in the eyes of unhappy conquered citizens, and this ideology spread like wildfire with the citizens. I will also mention briefly that Women were not treated with the same authority as they treated in our society. There are pockets of women who have made their mark on history, but all in all they just did not hold positions of power. But they were still important part of the society back then. This is what the bible tells us of a wife well before Nero came to power.


Proverbs 31:10-31 10 Who can find a virtuous and capable wife? She is more precious than rubies. 11 Her husband can trust her, and she will greatly enrich his life. 12 She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. 13 She finds wool and flax and busily spins it. 14 She is like a merchant's ship, bringing her food from afar. 15 She gets up before dawn to prepare breakfast for her household and plan the day's work for her servant girls. 16 She goes to inspect a field and buys it; with her earnings she plants a vineyard. 17 She is energetic and strong, a hard worker. 18 She makes sure her dealings are profitable; her lamp burns late into the night. 19 Her hands are busy spinning thread, her fingers twisting fiber. 20 She extends a helping hand to the poor and opens her arms to the needy. 21 She has no fear of winter for her household, for everyone has warm clothes. 22 She makes her own bedspreads. She dresses in fine linen and purple gowns. 23 Her husband is well known at the city gates, where he sits with the other civic leaders. 24 She makes belted linen garments and sashes to sell to the merchants. 25 She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future. 26 When she speaks, her words are wise, and she gives instructions with kindness. 27 She carefully watches everything in her household and suffers nothing from laziness. 28 Her children stand and bless her. Her husband praises her: 29 "There are many virtuous and capable women in the world, but you surpass them all!" 30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the LORD will be greatly praised. 31 Reward her for all she has done. Let her deeds publicly declare her praise.


So even before Nero was born, men searched for good wives to live their lives with just as they do today.

As far as the slave trade and other links, As I mentioned Humanity was much darker back then than it is now. Brutality was tolerated as a way of life that we can not imagine today. Yes we have seen our fair share of wars but even then we did not display wholesale killings for the pure enjoyment of the public as they did in Rome. However, one import aspect to all of this is that public brutality is not the only sin in the bible. Look at greed and how our society is much more in tune with this sin than the average citizen of Rome ever was. Survival was the goal of the day back then where as now it is keeping up with the latest trends… I really need to run but I try and get back and address a few more points tonight.

jesuslover1968
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:23 PM
Very true!

I don't know if Christ's return is near or not...the bible only says He will return, not when...I think I am like everyone else...ready anytime! :pp

God bless

Luke 21:20-35

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:56 PM
Luke 21:20-35

20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Yes and it happened exactly like that. Jerusalem was surrounded by an army..the Romans and the Christians..having heard or known about Jesus saying this...fled the city so that not one of them was killed. this happened forty years after Jesus ascended back to Heaven.

God bless

jesuslover1968
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:21 PM
Yes and it happened exactly like that. Jerusalem was surrounded by an army..the Romans and the Christians..having heard or known about Jesus saying this...fled the city so that not one of them was killed. this happened forty years after Jesus ascended back to Heaven.

God bless


Oh, I didn't know. Guess everyone missed it then? :lol: Just kidding. I don't believe the preterist, or partial preterist view. I do agree that some of those things took place, but not all. God Bless.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:22 PM
Moonglow I have read your links, and again I do have to say that I am not so sure you are accurate in portraying the true culture of the day by showing how Nero and a few elites acted while they were in power. I know David Guzik states that homosexuality was ramped back in that day, but I think he is looking solely at a small segment of the population to solidify his facts. I challenge his reasoning on a number of fronts. It is like looking at the records of the Catholic Church abusing young boys 2000 years from now and judging the entire Catholic Church based on that snapshot of convicted priests. It is just not a true representation of what the Catholic Church stood for. Let’s look at a good sample of history…

If you look at the history of the Catholic church..its pretty bad. Not just in the abuse of children...but on many other fronts actually.


First we can look at Pompey at how life was for the people of the era.

Explain Pompey..my search shows this was a person. You seem to be speaking about it as a place??


We did not see brothels on every corner filled with children prostitutes eagerly waiting to be castrated to join their husbands as David Guzik points out about Nero taking a boy child wife. It is absurd to think that all the population was that sick.

He never said that alot of boys were sitting around waiting to be castrated and married like that. He only said that in regards to Nero and the slave boy. Also when I talked about the temple prostitutes I wasn't referring to just Rome...Paul traveled all over the place. The verse I originally posted was about the Corinthians and avoiding sexual sins...Paul kept having alot of problems with them and they were located in Greece. He wrote that letter while he was in Ephesus...they worshiped the goddess Artemis. I did a study on this idol on here: http://in-his-name.net/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=192

The ritual of the temple services consisted of sacrifices and of ceremonial prostitution, a practice which was common to many of the religions of the ancient Orient, and which still exists among some of the obscure tribes of Asia Minor.

I am sorry we got so side tracked with just Rome here..I never intended for that to happen...I think we got on to Rome so much because of Nero.


Instead in Pompey, we saw many families clinging together in small huts in their last moments of life, mother and child, husband and wives all together in their last moments. There are ruminates of everyday culture on how they lived, cooking for each other, where they slept, and how they interacted in their personal lives. Yes there was prostitution just as it is today, but it was not in their face as you are thinking. There were rough parts of town and then there were decent parts of town just like it is today. Take a walk down the red light district in Amsterdam, and then you can go across town to a café where it is isolated from that type of behavior. It was much like this. And the people in Amsterdam are not bad people, nor is their sins any greater or less than what occurs anywhere else in the world.

Yes that is what I was trying to say. Things aren't worse today then back then. You need to realize though Paul and the disciples were going to the rough parts of town, not just in the nice safe areas. To preach the word of God. And still..if the new believers weren't that influenced by they sexually immorality going on, then why does scriptures say they were?


One of the big differences in our two cultures is the brutality Rome exhibited for all to see. Rome was extremely brutal in their treatment in humanity. From the gladiators who fought in the coliseum to the prisoners and criminals who hung from crosses to mark their dominion over the population. Prisons were often homes to death ridden diseases because of the condition of their cells. They just did not have anyone thinking about human rights. In fact it was just the opposite because they felt the more brutal they were the more fear they could invoke in the eyes of unhappy conquered citizens, and this ideology spread like wildfire with the citizens. I will also mention briefly that Women were not treated with the same authority as they treated in our society. There are pockets of women who have made their mark on history, but all in all they just did not hold positions of power. But they were still important part of the society back then. This is what the bible tells us of a wife well before Nero came to power.

They remind me of Islam in the middle east now...in alot of ways. :(




So even before Nero was born, men searched for good wives to live their lives with just as they do today.

As far as the slave trade and other links, As I mentioned Humanity was much darker back then than it is now. Brutality was tolerated as a way of life that we can not imagine today. Yes we have seen our fair share of wars but even then we did not display wholesale killings for the pure enjoyment of the public as they did in Rome. However, one import aspect to all of this is that public brutality is not the only sin in the bible. Look at greed and how our society is much more in tune with this sin than the average citizen of Rome ever was. Survival was the goal of the day back then where as now it is keeping up with the latest trends… I really need to run but I try and get back and address a few more points tonight.

Clearly Rome was killing for entertainment..not just to survive though, as you mentioned the gallators and later killing Christians for fun...:(

God bless

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:30 PM
Oh, I didn't know. Guess everyone missed it then? :lol: Just kidding. I don't believe the preterist, or partial preterist view. I do agree that some of those things took place, but not all. God Bless.

lol...even now it seems Jerusalem is constantly surrounded by their enemies...:rolleyes:

God bless

Oh ps...saying some of these things already happened in the past does make you a partial preterist by the way! ;)

John146
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:38 PM
I am having some trouble understanding why you say we could be in that time period now. I do not see anybody in our world today who could qualify as the man of sin being revealed. Do you?I don't believe there will be an individual man of sin or Antichrist. I've talked about this several times before. If you want to go into further detail, we can start a new thread or you can do a search on what has already been said about that topic.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:42 PM
I don't believe there will be an individual man of sin or Antichrist. I've talked about this several times before. If you want to go into further detail, we can start a new thread or you can do a search on what has already been said about that topic.

Yea I don't think so either.

God bless

Dani H
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:58 PM
I don't believe there will be an individual man of sin or Antichrist. I've talked about this several times before. If you want to go into further detail, we can start a new thread or you can do a search on what has already been said about that topic.

I don't think so either.

As to the OP: I think that sin is sin, today and thousands of years ago. I think it is neither more nor less. It may seem more today, because a) we have a lot more access to what goes on in the rest of the world via media and so we're more aware of what goes on around the globe versus just our corner of the world, and b) there are LOTS more people in the world today than there were 2000 years ago (over 9 billion, actually). So I don't think it's the amount of sin in and of itself that has increased. On the flipside, there are also a lot more Christians in the world today than there were back then. It's obviously a complex issue, and there are a lot of angles that play into it, and perhaps we're comparing apples and oranges?

jesuslover1968
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:18 PM
lol...even now it seems Jerusalem is constantly surrounded by their enemies...:rolleyes:

God bless

Oh ps...saying some of these things already happened in the past does make you a partial preterist by the way! ;)


Well, I wouldn't go that far, ever...lol. I am a staunch pretrib. :)

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:21 PM
I don't think so either.

As to the OP: I think that sin is sin, today and thousands of years ago. I think it is neither more nor less. It may seem more today, because a) we have a lot more access to what goes on in the rest of the world via media and so we're more aware of what goes on around the globe versus just our corner of the world, and b) there are LOTS more people in the world today than there were 2000 years ago (over 9 billion, actually). So I don't think it's the amount of sin in and of itself that has increased. On the flipside, there are also a lot more Christians in the world today than there were back then. It's obviously a complex issue, and there are a lot of angles that play into it, and perhaps we're comparing apples and oranges?

I agree with everything you said. The only reason I did this post is because I see so many on here saying they think sin has increased so they think the end is near...based on what they know in their short life time. I am just trying to show them that no it hasn't increased..its difficult to tell if its even worse then in the disciples time! Its just not the thing to go by in figuring out if the end is near or not is all I am saying.

Now possibly we can tell more by looking at the churches! Going by the increase in false teachings and sin IN the church.

God bless

danield
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:25 PM
just a short note moon. pompey is pompeii. I am sorry for the typo. It does show society as it really existed in the days of the disiples. It confirms historically excactly what I have been talking about. I will get back tonight on the matter.

jesuslover1968
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:24 PM
Now possibly we can tell more by looking at the churches! Going by the increase in false teachings and sin IN the church.


Now here you are probably on to something.
Also, I think we should say professing church, rather than church because they are two different things...God Bless.

Dani H
Oct 22nd 2008, 10:04 PM
I agree with everything you said. The only reason I did this post is because I see so many on here saying they think sin has increased so they think the end is near...based on what they know in their short life time. I am just trying to show them that no it hasn't increased..its difficult to tell if its even worse then in the disciples time! Its just not the thing to go by in figuring out if the end is near or not is all I am saying.

Now possibly we can tell more by looking at the churches! Going by the increase in false teachings and sin IN the church.

God bless

Well, let's see, the Bible that in the last days there would be a falling away ... that's a no-brainer and certainly happening, and has been happening ...and the love of many would grow cold ... no-brainer there too. False prophets ... check ... people heaping up teachers to themselves ... definitely happening ... casting off sound doctrine ... yep (from the way some talk and act, you'd think Jesus is a buffet) ... people claiming they are messiahs ... you bet. Mockers and scoffers within the church saying "where is Jesus? He's not coming, stop looking" ... etc etc etc. It's all there, right under our noses.

I'm quite frankly not so sure why people would use the world as an indicator of anything, when it's never about the world, and the world news on TV isn't going to tell us zilch about nothing.

It's always been about the people of God and the state they're in. Look for the sin in the church, the son of perdition within our own ranks (what is the temple of God? and who sits in there claiming he is God? who is the lawless one?), and you will know where the wind is blowing.

The son of perdition and the lawless one working is a result of a cross-less gospel, a Christ-less gospel that produces a cross-less and Christ-less church and exalts flesh on the throne and reduces Jesus to something far less than who He is. Paul told us exactly how it would be.

danield
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:26 AM
You need to realize though Paul and the disciples were going to the rough parts of town, not just in the nice safe areas. To preach the word of God. And still..if the new believers weren't that influenced by they sexually immorality going on, then why does scriptures say they were?
Please know Moon that I am not defending the Roman society. They were extremely immoral in many ways. As I mentioned they had brothels and indeed they had streetwalkers. And I know the rich indulged themselves with their slaves as they saw fit. And indeed Paul saw much of this and encouraged repentance. But there were also segments of society that caught glimpses of wholesome living. As we all mentioned the Jews did not believe in adultery. And then there were the converts who came over to Christianity. You see there was a huge problem with converting the Greeks because they did not want to be circumcised as the Jews demanded in order to be fully accepted. Paul clearly wrote about the difference in actual circumcision of the private part and the heart for a reason. The people of the time felt it was a mutilation of their bodies. In any event it was a big stumbling block to becoming Jewish.
Bottom line is that sex played a big part in their lives. Sex with women was encouraged in order to help populate the empire, and there were tax breaks given people in marriage. Was monogamy practiced by all Romans, of course not. However I do think there were many families that had to work so hard to just live that they did not have a huge amount of time to peruse extra marital affairs. I am not talking about the rich Romans, but the average to low level citizens or non citizens. Please note too that I know that some slaves were forced into obeying their master’s wishes and were common sex partners. But their society was not a mirror reflection of Nero’s behavior.

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:41 AM
Now here you are probably on to something.
Also, I think we should say professing church, rather than church because they are two different things...God Bless.

Yea exactly I think that is what we need to be watching instead of the world.

I used to be pre-trib rapture...was raised that way in fact but further studying on my own I don't hold that view anymore.


DaniHansen

Well, let's see, the Bible that in the last days there would be a falling away ... that's a no-brainer and certainly happening, and has been happening ...and the love of many would grow cold ... no-brainer there too. False prophets ... check ... people heaping up teachers to themselves ... definitely happening ... casting off sound doctrine ... yep (from the way some talk and act, you'd think Jesus is a buffet) ... people claiming they are messiahs ... you bet. Mockers and scoffers within the church saying "where is Jesus? He's not coming, stop looking" ... etc etc etc. It's all there, right under our noses.

I'm quite frankly not so sure why people would use the world as an indicator of anything, when it's never about the world, and the world news on TV isn't going to tell us zilch about nothing.

It's always been about the people of God and the state they're in. Look for the sin in the church, the son of perdition within our own ranks (what is the temple of God? and who sits in there claiming he is God? who is the lawless one?), and you will know where the wind is blowing.

The son of perdition and the lawless one working is a result of a cross-less gospel, a Christ-less gospel that produces a cross-less and Christ-less church and exalts flesh on the throne and reduces Jesus to something far less than who He is. Paul told us exactly how it would be.

Ok I have a question for you...you said their are people IN some churches saying Jesus isn't going to return? Are you serious? What churches are saying this?

A couple of years ago our pastor was doing a bible study on the end times and listed a number of other views saying they all thought Jesus would only return spiritually in some sense...not physically. He was actually wrong on this...every end time view he listed DOES believe Jesus will physically return..not sure how he got that information on them so wrong, but it does make you wonder if some think that...or think He won't return at all. But this is the first time I have heard anyone saying this. What do you know about it? Thanks


danield

Please know Moon that I am not defending the Roman society. They were extremely immoral in many ways. As I mentioned they had brothels and indeed they had streetwalkers. And I know the rich indulged themselves with their slaves as they saw fit. And indeed Paul saw much of this and encouraged repentance. But there were also segments of society that caught glimpses of wholesome living. As we all mentioned the Jews did not believe in adultery. And then there were the converts who came over to Christianity. You see there was a huge problem with converting the Greeks because they did not want to be circumcised as the Jews demanded in order to be fully accepted. Paul clearly wrote about the difference in actual circumcision of the private part and the heart for a reason. The people of the time felt it was a mutilation of their bodies. In any event it was a big stumbling block to becoming Jewish.
Bottom line is that sex played a big part in their lives. Sex with women was encouraged in order to help populate the empire, and there were tax breaks given people in marriage. Was monogamy practiced by all Romans, of course not. However I do think there were many families that had to work so hard to just live that they did not have a huge amount of time to peruse extra marital affairs. I am not talking about the rich Romans, but the average to low level citizens or non citizens. Please note too that I know that some slaves were forced into obeying their master’s wishes and were common sex partners. But their society was not a mirror reflection of Nero’s behavior.

Ok...but as I said Paul didn't just go to Rome...he traveled all over the place and encountered all sorts of pagan cities with different religious practices. Anyway I know you have alot to read and alot to post! :lol: So I won't comment too much here! No rush on this either.

And by the way...if I don't log in tomorrow we may not have electricity. We are having very strong winds here and the dinning room lights keep flickering. I sure hope we don't lose our lights! Kind of like having heat in the house..:rolleyes: We have a cold front moving through...its nasty out!

God bless

immortality
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:11 AM
Is sin really worse now then in the disciples time?

i think it is, yes.

notice how god's judgment in noah's day took place when civilization's wickedness was unprecedented.

i personally believe we are in the last days. "as in the days of noah, so shall it be when the son of man is revealed".

apparently, god is able to somehow coincide and determine through his foreknowledge the judgments according to the level of humanity's moral decay.

this concept is truly beyond our ability to grasp, but it seems to be true.

BroRog
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:26 AM
I don't think Sin is worse in our lifetime, but I can't know for certain. However, what has changed in my lifetime is the the lack of love for the truth. Postmodernism is new according to a man I know with a Phd in philosophy.

Joe King
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:54 AM
I think sin is more public than it was in the old times. Now it is flaunted and pushed as desireable.

Dani H
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:13 PM
Ok I have a question for you...you said their are people IN some churches saying Jesus isn't going to return? Are you serious? What churches are saying this?

I've seen discussions on other forums where people insisted He had already returned, and were not kind about their attitudes, either. The gist was basically that those of use who are awaiting His return, are ill-informed and clueless. This coming from "Christians."

jesuslover1968
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:27 PM
Yea exactly I think that is what we need to be watching instead of the world.

I used to be pre-trib rapture...was raised that way in fact but further studying on my own I don't hold that view anymore.



Jesus made this plain I believe when He started Revelation to the seven churches. In Revelation 3:10 He knocks on the door of the church! :o That is a sure sign things are not right. ( btw, any who previously believed that He is knocking on the door to your heart in that verse have been duped. Read it in it's context and you will see He is knocking on the door of the professing church. )


I was never taught anything about endtimes views. I became interested in endtimes quite a few years back because of things I was learning on my own. I have never been in the slightest convinced by any other view because to me, they aren't right. They are full of holes and suppositions, pretty much they way my view can be made to seem. We believe what we believe and if God wants me to change my mind, I have faith He will do so. :) Until then, I am a staunch pre-tribber. :)

jesuslover1968
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:38 PM
i personally believe we are in the last days. "as in the days of noah, so shall it be when the son of man is revealed".



Well, though I agree that we are in the last days, I don't agree that sin has to be necessarily more rampant. God did not immediately destroy the world when sin became so rampant. If you go back to Genesis, you will see that the thought of a man was only evil continually, ( not quoting, just paraphrasing there...) As to the times of Noah, man was eating, drinking , marrying and giving in marriage, just as it has always been. I believe there is something specific about the "times of Noah," other than that they were doing these things, being oblivious to their sins, because men have always done this and will continue to until the end. But that is for another discussion, as I don't want to derail the thread. :)
back to Genesis, out of every human being, only Noah, out of ALL the people was perfect in his generations.

Genesis 6:9
9~These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
My point is that God let the sin get that far before He decided to end it. God gives every person ample time to come to Him... God Bless.

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:48 PM
I've seen discussions on other forums where people insisted He had already returned, and were not kind about their attitudes, either. The gist was basically that those of use who are awaiting His return, are ill-informed and clueless. This coming from "Christians."

Oh ok...I thought you meant some saying He was never coming at all. This view some have that He has returned already is called full preterism and not allowed on here...but we do have one member on here that believes in this view (though he can do more then say he does on here) and he is a really nice guy. People aren't on here aren't always very nice to him though! :( If they start in on him he just won't respond....he really can't anyway...can't defend his point of view or he would get banned. So he has to just keep turning the other cheek so to speak and say nothing. I admire him for that but I honestly don't understand why he believes Jesus came already.


jesuslover1968

Jesus made this plain I believe when He started Revelation to the seven churches. In Revelation 3:10 He knocks on the door of the church! That is a sure sign things are not right. ( btw, any who previously believed that He is knocking on the door to your heart in that verse have been duped. Read it in it's context and you will see He is knocking on the door of the professing church. )


I was never taught anything about endtimes views. I became interested in endtimes quite a few years back because of things I was learning on my own. I have never been in the slightest convinced by any other view because to me, they aren't right. They are full of holes and suppositions, pretty much they way my view can be made to seem. We believe what we believe and if God wants me to change my mind, I have faith He will do so. Until then, I am a staunch pre-tribber.

Yes...and He was talking TO churches that actually existed back then too! lol. Though of course we compare those churches to our now also. I think some use it as a gauge as to whether their churches are in trouble or not...alot are...:(

I don't think its that important to God what our end time views are actually...otherwise their wouldn't be so many different ones. The only thing that does matter is that we all share the same core believes...that Jesus is our Savior...the Son of God, died for our sins and rose on the third day (though some will argue which day He Rose on...:cool:) Sometimes I think we debate everything to the extreme! :(

It doesn't matter to me what your end time views are..meaning I won't argue or debate you to try to get you to 'see things my way'...;) So don't worry about that.

God bless

jesuslover1968
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:24 PM
It doesn't matter to me what your end time views are..meaning I won't argue or debate you to try to get you to 'see things my way'...;) So don't worry about that.



That's good to know. :)

My heart's Desire
Oct 27th 2008, 05:10 AM
If we're wondering if the characterists of sin has increased, probably not, yet if you look as a whole one may also say that as we have millions more alive in the world than at any other time in history, or at least more than in the disciples time, then sin has increased just because there are more people alive today who sin. That may be an angle.
Another is that sin has not just increased but there are more who are calling evil good, and good, evil.

Kudo Shinichi
Oct 27th 2008, 02:49 PM
Well, abortion in America has increase drastically after 10 years said by one of my classmates who did in Moral Class. Then, homosexuality isn't hidden in the closet but they are braver than ever...they change the California rulings...gay marriage...

wrldstrman
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:42 AM
Sin has been sin since Adam. What I said is I feel its getting worse because nowdays to the average joe, most of the sins of the bible are not viewed as bad things. Just like abortion in todays society, man has decided that life doesnt start til the baby is born. So killing a baby in the womb to most theres nothing wrong with it because its not a baby. People think nothing of using the Lords name in vain and by todays living no one gives it a secong thought. I still say the big difference is yes back then they sinned but the difference is today most sin isnt thought to be sin by most people. making it worse.

Back2Front
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:42 AM
here is my two cents.

Sorry I didn't read all four pages of this thread and only read the OP, but here it goes....

Many today know the living God and are fully aware. Today, sin is called sin and darkness called darkness. Yet people choose it anyway, fully aware and not deceived.

I think that is the big difference. That is the sign of the times.

moonglow
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:23 PM
Well, abortion in America has increase drastically after 10 years said by one of my classmates who did in Moral Class. Then, homosexuality isn't hidden in the closet but they are braver than ever...they change the California rulings...gay marriage...

They were killing new born back in the OT though...throwing them alive into fire as a sacrifice to their pagan gods. Sexually immorality of all kinds was very accepted and part of their pagan worship.


wrldstrman Sin has been sin since Adam. What I said is I feel its getting worse because nowdays to the average joe, most of the sins of the bible are not viewed as bad things. Just like abortion in todays society, man has decided that life doesnt start til the baby is born. So killing a baby in the womb to most theres nothing wrong with it because its not a baby. People think nothing of using the Lords name in vain and by todays living no one gives it a secong thought. I still say the big difference is yes back then they sinned but the difference is today most sin isnt thought to be sin by most people. making it worse.

People didn't see sin as a bad thing back in the disciples day either! Paul had to work with some of the churches to get them to stop sinning because they grew up in it and thought it was ok...


Back2Front
too much to read
here is my two cents.

Sorry I didn't read all four pages of this thread and only read the OP, but here it goes....

Many today know the living God and are fully aware. Today, sin is called sin and darkness called darkness. Yet people choose it anyway, fully aware and not deceived.

I think that is the big difference. That is the sign of the times.

Did you mean this:


Isa 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;

That is also nothing new.

The key here I think is to look at the church...not the world. Of course we should expect to see sin in the world! The bible says so. Why expect nonbelievers to act better or worse? We can't gauge anything on that. Yet people try to say we are close to the end times because they think the world is more sinful...but compared to the past...its not.

God bless

Back2Front
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:02 PM
Did you mean this:


Isa 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;



Yes thats what I meant. And I understand the Ecclasties concept your trying to say as well... There is nothing new under the sun.

The only point I'm trying to make though is that unlike the disciples time, there is now Hoards and Hoards of people who claim to be Christians and believers that are actively not, and are actively lying, and actively devil worshipers and know exactly who the living God is.

Now there were idol worshipers and false God worshipers of the Disciples times as well as Satanists I'm sure. But we currently live in a time where all of that is gone, or at least rapidly fading. People only are being faced with 2 choices. The real God, or Satan.

No more is there an excuse to say "We didn't know"

Those who chose Satan know exactly what they are choosing.

moonglow
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:28 PM
Yes thats what I meant. And I understand the Ecclasties concept your trying to say as well... There is nothing new under the sun.

The only point I'm trying to make though is that unlike the disciples time, there is now Hoards and Hoards of people who claim to be Christians and believers that are actively not, and are actively lying, and actively devil worshipers and know exactly who the living God is.

Now there were idol worshipers and false God worshipers of the Disciples times as well as Satanists I'm sure. But we currently live in a time where all of that is gone, or at least rapidly fading. People only are being faced with 2 choices. The real God, or Satan.

No more is there an excuse to say "We didn't know"

Those who chose Satan know exactly what they are choosing.

Maybe in American. But in many nations they still worship pagan gods. Hindus worship many statues...idols...have many gods. Muslims worship a god that certainly doesn't seem to be about love. In communist countries they have little chance of hearing the gospel. Likewise in Hindu and Muslim countries. Our religion is illegal in many, many places around the world...so no, they don't know in way you think they should. They don't have access to TV or radio that isn't state controlled.

God bless