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moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 06:04 PM
(note: I would be interested in seeing if this is happening in other countries besides the USA)

I think this needs some serious discussion because I am seeing more and more Christians saying this on the net and even on here and I am deeply concerned about it because it goes directly against what the bible teaches us. They believe they are justified because they see the government as evil or sinful and corrupt. (what government isn't sinful? or never has been?)

Those posts I have seen feel the government is going to come after all us Christians in the end times. And they might, but there is nothing in the bible that says we can rebel against the government or break their laws.

Those of you that think its ok to not follow the laws in our land and actually break the laws or rebel against the government..did it ever occur to you, that because of this behavior you MIGHT be bringing persecution upon yourself? And not because you are a Christian but simply because you are a trouble maker and breaking the law.

Lets see what the bible has to say about this.

Romans 13
Submit to Government

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

When we see the disciples refusing to stop preaching about Jesus, this was usually ordered by the Jewish leaders in their time and this was the ONLY time they did not follow their rulings. Otherwise they obeyed all the Jewish and Roman laws. Later Nero the Roman ruler went after the Christians yes...he wanted to be worshiped as a god which of course the Christians would not do. In that case of course you don't worship anyone or anything other then God.

Now in America there are certain laws passed that ALLOW people to do things we consider immoral. These laws do NOT cause us to sin against God. That is the only exception is if the government or ruling authorities were to make us sin against God can we resist. These other laws that allow sin, do not cause us to sin.

Yet I see people on here even hinting around they are willfully breaking the law right now! What laws they won't say...but they imply they are. I just don't see how biblically that is right at all and will eventually land those people in jail for breaking the law. They might say, 'so be it'....thinking they are following God's will...but are they really?

God bless

kf4zmt
Oct 21st 2008, 07:37 PM
You are right. No matter how bad a government gets, the only time we can break the laws of men is when they conflict with the laws of God.

Those in authority were incredibly cruel (up to and including torture and death) to Christians in the first century. However, the inspired writings of the apostles forbid us to take matters into our own hands and rebel. Instead we are told to pray for those in authority.

Fleeing to another country is always an option. In Acts 8:1-4, Christians fled in order to escape persecution.

daughter
Oct 21st 2008, 08:00 PM
However, very often the laws of the land conflict with the laws of God.

For example, my Dad's a respected teacher. However, despite his decades of experience, he's been reprimanded several times because he won't refer teenage girls for abortions. According to the "law" he should get them hooked up to someone who will enable their "solution" to the pregnancy problem, no questions asked. Their parents should never be involved.

My Dad has helped several terrified teenagers confide in their parents, and on one occasion where there was genuine risk of abuse for the young mother he organised a safe house, and individual tutors to help the girl not fall behind while she was expecting. (She had been raped, but refused to abort, despite her father's violent insistence, hence the half way house.)

Thing is, he broke guidlines. If a tearful fourteen year old said she didn't know what she should do about her baby, he should - according to guidlines - have referred her to a counsellor, who would have "sorted it out." While it did occasionally happen that a girl refused point blank to look at the alternatives, my Dad did at least manage to present those alternatives.

Anyway... because my Dad broke the guidlines (damaging his career in the process) one of his kids grew up to be a social worker, married and had another two children, the child who "should" have been aborted has just started university, and my Dad's been asked to be godfather to the mother's first grandson.

Sometimes we have no option but to break "the law."

kf4zmt
Oct 21st 2008, 08:04 PM
However, very often the laws of the land conflict with the laws of God.

For example, my Dad's a respected teacher. However, despite his decades of experience, he's been reprimanded several times because he won't refer teenage girls for abortions. According to the "law" he should get them hooked up to someone who will enable their "solution" to the pregnancy problem, no questions asked. Their parents should never be involved.

My Dad has helped several terrified teenagers confide in their parents, and on one occasion where there was genuine risk of abuse for the young mother he organised a safe house, and individual tutors to help the girl not fall behind while she was expecting. (She had been raped, but refused to abort, despite her father's violent insistence, hence the half way house.)

Thing is, he broke guidlines. If a tearful fourteen year old said she didn't know what she should do about her baby, he should - according to guidlines - have referred her to a counsellor, who would have "sorted it out." While it did occasionally happen that a girl refused point blank to look at the alternatives, my Dad did at least manage to present those alternatives.

Anyway... because my Dad broke the guidlines (damaging his career in the process) one of his kids grew up to be a social worker, married and had another two children, the child who "should" have been aborted has just started university, and my Dad's been asked to be godfather to the mother's first grandson.

Sometimes we have no option but to break "the law."

Were these government laws or school policy?

In either case, I am glad that your dad had the courage to do this. He has set an excellent example.

Veretax
Oct 21st 2008, 08:27 PM
I'm mainly concerned that the Government will begin to turn against the principles upon which it is founded. Abolishing freedom of religion being chief among them. I've always felt that our country is due for another Civil War, and I am in no way advocating that we force one to ignite, but there could come a time when the Government no longer represents the interests of the governed, and that is typically the kind of event that causes such events.

Will it happen in our lifetime though? Who's to say, I really don't know, but I'm always mindful of what is going on, and try to be careful about who I support and elect to government.

thepenitent
Oct 21st 2008, 08:51 PM
In Acts 4:19 don't Peter and John refuse to follow the order of the government when ordered not to preach of Jesus anymore? You don't render to Caesar what is rightfully God's.

moonglow
Oct 21st 2008, 09:18 PM
In Acts 4:19 don't Peter and John refuse to follow the order of the government when ordered not to preach of Jesus anymore? You don't render to Caesar what is rightfully God's.

Re-read my post...I said that was an exception. Read that verse in content; it again was the Jewish leaders not the government telling them not to preach about Jesus. They of course went to Rome many times to have the Christians killed and put in prison for preaching about Jesus.


daughter However, very often the laws of the land conflict with the laws of God.

For example, my Dad's a respected teacher. However, despite his decades of experience, he's been reprimanded several times because he won't refer teenage girls for abortions. According to the "law" he should get them hooked up to someone who will enable their "solution" to the pregnancy problem, no questions asked. Their parents should never be involved.

My Dad has helped several terrified teenagers confide in their parents, and on one occasion where there was genuine risk of abuse for the young mother he organised a safe house, and individual tutors to help the girl not fall behind while she was expecting. (She had been raped, but refused to abort, despite her father's violent insistence, hence the half way house.)

Thing is, he broke guidlines. If a tearful fourteen year old said she didn't know what she should do about her baby, he should - according to guidlines - have referred her to a counsellor, who would have "sorted it out." While it did occasionally happen that a girl refused point blank to look at the alternatives, my Dad did at least manage to present those alternatives.

Anyway... because my Dad broke the guidlines (damaging his career in the process) one of his kids grew up to be a social worker, married and had another two children, the child who "should" have been aborted has just started university, and my Dad's been asked to be godfather to the mother's first grandson.

Sometimes we have no option but to break "the law."

The school guidelines? That is what is sounds like you are talking about here. If it was a government law I image he would have been fined or put in jail. I am glad though he had the courage to do this. The people I see saying to rebel against the government though are doing it simply because they see the government as evil....they won't say publically what laws they are breaking though. I think if it was something noble such as what your father did, they would speak up...but they don't. These are the ones I am talking about that I am concerned about...simply rebelling out of their own judgment towards the government.


Veretax I'm mainly concerned that the Government will begin to turn against the principles upon which it is founded. Abolishing freedom of religion being chief among them. I've always felt that our country is due for another Civil War, and I am in no way advocating that we force one to ignite, but there could come a time when the Government no longer represents the interests of the governed, and that is typically the kind of event that causes such events.

Will it happen in our lifetime though? Who's to say, I really don't know, but I'm always mindful of what is going on, and try to be careful about who I support and elect to government.

The first century Christians endured Rome turning on them...and its happened in other nations and countries too. Happening right now in many nations where our faith isn't allowed at all! But everyone overly focuses on the US government for some reason rather then looking at our brothers and sisters who are already going through it! They never had the freedom to worship who they wanted too and we need to be in prayer for them. Rebelling against our government out of fear something might happen is no excuse to rebel and as that passage says they are in endanger of bringing the judgment of God on themselves for it.

God bless

thepenitent
Oct 21st 2008, 10:24 PM
; it again was the Jewish leaders not the government telling them not to preach about Jesus. They of course went to Rome many times to have the Christians killed and put in prison for preaching about Jesus.
God bless

The Jewish leaders were the government. Rome left the local government autonomous in most of the day to day governing in all their provinces. There was some oversight such as capital punishment and tax collection but for the most part as long as the peace was kept and the money kept rolling in the people kept their local governments. Certainly the Jewish leaders had the authority to imprision without the need of Roman permission. Josephus cites many instances of this.

SIG
Oct 21st 2008, 11:21 PM
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

σяєяυииєя
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:34 AM
And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace. Jeremiah 29:7



Cya

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:04 AM
The Jewish leaders were the government. Rome left the local government autonomous in most of the day to day governing in all their provinces. There was some oversight such as capital punishment and tax collection but for the most part as long as the peace was kept and the money kept rolling in the people kept their local governments. Certainly the Jewish leaders had the authority to imprision without the need of Roman permission. Josephus cites many instances of this.

Ok....I guess I never thought of them as a government. All their laws centered about their religion. I guess this is another way of looking at them...:hmm: At any rate as I did say, this was the one thing they could do and be ok with in the eyes of God. So I agree with you on that.


God bless

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:15 AM
The first century Christians endured Rome turning on them...and its happened in other nations and countries too. Happening right now in many nations where our faith isn't allowed at all! But everyone overly focuses on the US government for some reason rather then looking at our brothers and sisters who are already going through it! They never had the freedom to worship who they wanted too and we need to be in prayer for them. Rebelling against our government out of fear something might happen is no excuse to rebel and as that passage says they are in endanger of bringing the judgment of God on themselves for it.

God bless


I agree, we have many Christians overseas that need our prayers. However, I think your assuming that all of us who feel there might come a time to battle, that that time is now. No there would have to be some casus belli, some catalyst that would require a response first. I've not seen anything that would require that sort of action yet in the US. However, being a bit of a student of History, there are some warning signs that I've seen of late, but again, as I said, there would need to be something pretty blatant for a real true civil war to break out I think. Especially since a lot of the populace is content to be complacent at present.

I've heard rumors about things like this since I was a child, so maybe I'm just more attuned to keep my ear to the ground and watch what the Gov't is doing. Who knows. A lot of things can happen though that could change all of that really quickly. (then again, maybe I've been watching/reading too much post-apocalyptic fiction)

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 01:31 PM
I agree, we have many Christians overseas that need our prayers. However, I think your assuming that all of us who feel there might come a time to battle, that that time is now. No there would have to be some casus belli, some catalyst that would require a response first. I've not seen anything that would require that sort of action yet in the US. However, being a bit of a student of History, there are some warning signs that I've seen of late, but again, as I said, there would need to be something pretty blatant for a real true civil war to break out I think. Especially since a lot of the populace is content to be complacent at present.

I've heard rumors about things like this since I was a child, so maybe I'm just more attuned to keep my ear to the ground and watch what the Gov't is doing. Who knows. A lot of things can happen though that could change all of that really quickly. (then again, maybe I've been watching/reading too much post-apocalyptic fiction)

I don't see anything in the bible that says its ok for us to battle against the government though. Not sure if that is what you meant or just people in general rebelling against the government.

I have been listening to Adrian Rogers sermons on submitting to yes, even an evil government the last few days. He reminds us how Paul said to do this while under heavy persecution from the Roman Ruler Nero. Our authority is BY submission. Its a good sermon people ought to listen too:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Love_Worth_Finding/
The Problem of Unworthy Authorities

Tomorrow if a person clicks on that link it will probably show whatever he talks about tomorrow and the link to this may be different or gone.

God bless

diffangle
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:19 PM
Were the people who hid Jewish people during the holocaust wrong in our Creators eyes for going against their government? If you lived in a country like Saudi Arabia, would you obey their law by not practicising Christianity or owning a Bible? Was Rahab not considered righteous for rebeling against her government? :hmm:

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:28 PM
I don't see anything in the bible that says its ok for us to battle against the government though. Not sure if that is what you meant or just people in general rebelling against the government.

I have been listening to Adrian Rogers sermons on submitting to yes, even an evil government the last few days. He reminds us how Paul said to do this while under heavy persecution from the Roman Ruler Nero. Our authority is BY submission. Its a good sermon people ought to listen too:

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Love_Worth_Finding/
The Problem of Unworthy Authorities

Tomorrow if a person clicks on that link it will probably show whatever he talks about tomorrow and the link to this may be different or gone.

God bless

Hrms, one thing to perhaps consider, is that I don't recall of hearing of any "rebelion" in end times texts, except perhaps relating to the beast and the mark. However, maybe i just see it as being our responsibility as people who have perceived choices on whom to elect, which was a bit different then in the days of Israel where God selected kings and the people for the most part didn't have a lot of say in that. Hrms... I suppose there are two sides to this, and as always I strive to try and keep balanced. I read what is going on in DC and a lot of it makes me angry, but at the same time, what profit is that anger? I do know that regardless of your end times beliefs, there seems to be lack of any mention of the US in it, which to me means one of two things. Either we no longer exist as a nation, or two, we are so weak as to not even be worth mentioning. Either concept requires something major to happen I beleive.

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 02:49 PM
(note: I would be interested in seeing if this is happening in other countries besides the USA)

I think this needs some serious discussion because I am seeing more and more Christians saying this on the net and even on here and I am deeply concerned about it because it goes directly against what the bible teaches us. They believe they are justified because they see the government as evil or sinful and corrupt. (what government isn't sinful? or never has been?)

Those posts I have seen feel the government is going to come after all us Christians in the end times. And they might, but there is nothing in the bible that says we can rebel against the government or break their laws.

Those of you that think its ok to not follow the laws in our land and actually break the laws or rebel against the government..did it ever occur to you, that because of this behavior you MIGHT be bringing persecution upon yourself? And not because you are a Christian but simply because you are a trouble maker and breaking the law

Would I be considered rebellious if I believe that governments shouldn't use religious beliefs to justify what they do, such as things that effect other countries where Christians must live under scrutiny and persecution?

My only concern about government would be that they not harm other Christians (wherever they are in the world) if they proclaim themselves Christian. No matter how hard that is for them.

Aren't we to walk a path of peace as Christians in this world. Our only battle is with the unseen spiritual forces, not one another.

daughter
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:41 PM
I just wanted to thank the posters who clarified a point for me... it's the school's interpretation of the laws of the land that my Dad's had trouble with, not the "laws" in and of themselves. Sometimes it helps to hear another take on things... thanks!

lilwrangler
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:50 PM
When I finished reading Sam Harris' The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation I immediately thought of how, in the not too distant future, his ideals would take root in our government. It's scary. And then when you start diving in to all of the New World Order theories and stuff like the Georgia Guidestones one can really see a large undercurrent of people moving us towards a universalist type existence. I laugh out loud every time I hear a politician speak of immigration and how we need to get our "borders under control". It's a sham designed to lull voters into a false sense of security. It's easier to watch everyone under one collective roof. And in doing so, organize them all under one religious umbrella as well.

I'm not sure what I will do as far as my family is concerned when that times comes. I've always been a stand and fight kind of person. And my occupational background in security, self defense and so forth has certainly endeared my brain to that end even further. I have a plan in my mind's eye but I honestly don't know.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.........

diffangle
Oct 22nd 2008, 03:51 PM
I just wanted to thank the posters who clarified a point for me... it's the school's interpretation of the laws of the land that my Dad's had trouble with, not the "laws" in and of themselves. Sometimes it helps to hear another take on things... thanks!
Does Romans 13 specify what authorities it's speaking of? School authorities wouldn't qualify as a governing authority? I would think with your fathers job, they would be considered a governing authority over him. :dunno:

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:04 PM
Were the people who hid Jewish people during the holocaust wrong in our Creators eyes for going against their government? If you lived in a country like Saudi Arabia, would you obey their law by not practicising Christianity or owning a Bible? Was Rahab not considered righteous for rebeling against her government? :hmm:

She was obeying God yes...because she had faith she was saved...while her city wasn't. That is what I am talking about...whether it lines up with scriptures or not...the concerns was those Christians rebelling NOT because they are doing God's work...they are rebelling simply because they see the government as evil. We are obviously not in a situation where a group is being hunted and we hide any of God's people...so I am pretty sure that isn't what they are doing.


Teke: Would I be considered rebellious if I believe that governments shouldn't use religious beliefs to justify what they do, such as things that effect other countries where Christians must live under scrutiny and persecution?

Probably...accourding to scriptures. As I said the early Christians were being persecuted but they did not rebel against the government or people going after them. We see nothing about them taking up arms or fighting back. They ran and hide and when they could they kept preaching the gospel but many were killed.


My only concern about government would be that they not harm other Christians (wherever they are in the world) if they proclaim themselves Christian. No matter how hard that is for them.

I would be concerned too! That is why the bible tells us to pray for them.


Aren't we to walk a path of peace as Christians in this world. Our only battle is with the unseen spiritual forces, not one another.

Exactly.


Veretax: Hrms, one thing to perhaps consider, is that I don't recall of hearing of any "rebelion" in end times texts, except perhaps relating to the beast and the mark. However, maybe i just see it as being our responsibility as people who have perceived choices on whom to elect, which was a bit different then in the days of Israel where God selected kings and the people for the most part didn't have a lot of say in that. Hrms... I suppose there are two sides to this, and as always I strive to try and keep balanced. I read what is going on in DC and a lot of it makes me angry, but at the same time, what profit is that anger? I do know that regardless of your end times beliefs, there seems to be lack of any mention of the US in it, which to me means one of two things. Either we no longer exist as a nation, or two, we are so weak as to not even be worth mentioning. Either concept requires something major to happen I beleive.

There is no rebellion mentioned in Revelation..it only says this;

Revelation 12:10-12

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Canada is not mentioned in the end times...neither is Austrial, or South American or many, many other nations. Why everyone focuses so much on the US is beyond me! The bible was written in a time when the world was much smaller so to speak...its only focus has always been on the middle east. I think our focus should stay there and not even worry about the many, many hundreds (thousands) of other nations not mentioned in it.


daughter : I just wanted to thank the posters who clarified a point for me... it's the school's interpretation of the laws of the land that my Dad's had trouble with, not the "laws" in and of themselves. Sometimes it helps to hear another take on things... thanks!

You know I was thinking alot about your post yesterday..I found it so distrubing that they wouldn't even allow these girls to have the information for other options. Take about restricting their rights! I have no idea what the laws and all are over there...but it seems their freedom of choice is very limited. :( I also thought it was awful that parents wouldn't be informed..I mean what if something went wrong? The parents wouldn't know to look after their daughters for health problems...makes you wonder how many have died because of this. :(

God bless

Veretax
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:08 PM
Those are fair points. And I am inclined to agree. Which brings me to a question. If Christians are to be submissive to government, should the be active in government, or in the politics of government etc?

AliveinChristDave
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:15 PM
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

So many quote the first phrase of verse 1 but ignore the second phrase. If a ruler is not of God then that ruler has no authority. It does not say that all rulers have authority. Only those of God have authority to rule.

Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Obviously those who have authority from God to rule have the authority to make the laws

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

We do that which those in authority demand. If a ruler isn't set forth by God then that ruler has no authority over anyone.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Can you honestly say every ruler in the world is a minister of God. If that is true Hussein should be ruling Iraq today. Burma would be the new frounter. Kim Jong-il would be of God.

Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.


Again, we help those who are put in authority by God. As Christ said, tribute to whom tribute is due.
Along this line, as citizens, we should do what we can do to appease those in authority even though we many not agree that God has put them there. I pay taxes and obey laws even though I might consider the laws foolish. I'm sure there will come a day when I have to take a stand for righteousness sake and suffer the consequences for what I do. Whether I fight with weapons, I don't know. Doubtfully. But I might have to protect my loved ones. I hope that day never comes.

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Notice it says "is due." I'm not going to render anything to anyone who doesn't deserve it.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
I don't ask for favors from the government. Churches make the mistake of applying for tax exempt status. What the government gives, it can take and what it allows, it controls. There will come a time when the hands of local churches will be tied because they "owe the government."

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Why would God ask us citizens not to kill then allow the government to do the same? The same goes for adultery, lying etc.
I can't understand for the life of me how a person can kill another person and at the same time love them like a neighbor.
A government that would ask us to kill is not of God.


Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

The problem as I see it is this: So many believers put their trust in this present administration and in all honesty have seen nothing but colossal failure. In desperation they look for something in scripture to back their mistaken blunder up and to shift the blame from their shoulders to someone else's. Who better to blame than God? So as America teeters on the brink of destruction we can smugly sit by and say, "it's all God's fault. He put them in leadership." In the meantime we allow "whatever will be" to overtake us and destroy what little freedoms we have left here in this country in the name of God.
We're to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. (Matt. 10:6) We can live in peace but we have to have enough common sense coupled with spirituality to understand and overcome the times we live in. If we don't, then we will perish with the crowd.

σяєяυииєя
Oct 22nd 2008, 04:25 PM
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. Matt 22:21

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29


Cya

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:04 PM
Those are fair points. And I am inclined to agree. Which brings me to a question. If Christians are to be submissive to government, should the be active in government, or in the politics of government etc?

For me personally, I am undecided on this. I don't see any examples in the bible of Christians being involved in politics. But in this one commentary I found in regards to the Romans 13 passage, he says this:

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=013
c. Taxes . . . customs . . . fear . . . honor: We are to give to the state the money, honor, and proper reverence which are due to the state, all the while reserving our right to give to God that which is due to God alone. (Matthew 22:21)

d. In light of this, is rebellion against government ever justified? If a citizen has a choice between two governments, it is right to choose and to promote the one that is most legitimate in God's eyes - the one which will best fulfill God's purpose for governments.

i. As well, in a democracy, we must understand that there is a sense in which we are the government, and should not hesitate to help "govern" our democracy through our participation in the democratic process.

I don't know if I agree with that..the bible never refers to the church...the body of Christ, as a government...:hmm: I just don't see any examples on 'helping' to promote a more Godly government. Hearts and minds are changed through individuals...not by forcing people to conform to our standards. That only breeds rebellion...drives people away from God, not too Him. I mean look at this way...if we lived in a country that forced everyone to be Muslims which there are countries like that...we sure wouldn't like it would we? So why should we force others to live by the morals and standards of our faith as if they were Christians, when they aren't...

God bless

Vhayes
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:10 PM
I tried to rep you for this post, Moonglow.

You and I seem to be on the same exact page here:


I don't know if I agree with that..the bible never refers to the church...the body of Christ, as a government... I just don't see any examples on 'helping' to promote a more Godly government. Hearts and minds are changed through individuals...not by forcing people to conform to our standards. That only breeds rebellion...drives people away from God, not too Him. I mean look at this way...if we lived in a country that forced everyone to be Muslims which there are countries like that...we sure wouldn't like it would we? So why should we force others to live by the morals and standards of our faith as if they were Christians, when they aren't...
V

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:31 PM
Probably...accourding to scriptures. As I said the early Christians were being persecuted but they did not rebel against the government or people going after them. We see nothing about them taking up arms or fighting back. They ran and hide and when they could they kept preaching the gospel but many were killed.

I wouldn't take up arms/weapons to fight my government. That is not the way things are done in the US. In my country I have a voice and I will use that voice. Whether it falls on deaf ears or is not as loud as the majority, I am still at liberty to be heard.

Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Because,

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And of course we continually pray for the whole world.

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=AliveinChristDave;1836140]Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

So many quote the first phrase of verse 1 but ignore the second phrase.

I included the whole passage...I didn't ignore anything.



If a ruler is not of God then that ruler has no authority. It does not say that all rulers have authority. Only those of God have authority to rule.

Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


It does not say that! Where does it say if the ruler isn't from God??? It says

2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.

Going back to verse one:

Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

ALL authority has been place there by God..the second verse doesn't cancel out the first verse at all but in fact re-enforces it.




Obviously those who have authority from God to rule have the authority to make the laws

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

We do that which those in authority demand. If a ruler isn't set forth by God then that ruler has no authority over anyone.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Doesn't say a thing about them not being appointed by God...it says ALL are appointed by Him and we are to obey them. Verse four is telling us to not get revenge upon someone that did wrong but to let the government deal with them.


Can you honestly say every ruler in the world is a minister of God. If that is true Hussein should be ruling Iraq today. Burma would be the new frounter. Kim Jong-il would be of God.
Yep I can honestly say that they were put there by God...you know why? Because the bible says so. We see clearly through out the OT where evil people ruled over the Jews because God was punishing the Jews for their rebellion against Him! They turned to doing horrible wicked things...burning their own children alive in worship to pagan gods because they allowed themselves to become corrupted by those pagan even when God told them not too. God uses the government to bless and judge people...we see it time and time again in the bible.

David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible (http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=013)
c. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God: We subject ourselves to governing authorities because they are appointed by God and serve a purpose in His plan.

i. No authority except from God: God appoints a nation's leaders, but not always to bless the people. Sometimes it is to judge the people or to ripen the nation for judgment.

ii. We remember that Paul wrote this during the reign of the Roman Empire. It was no democracy, and no special friend to Christians - yet he still saw their legitimate authority.

iii. "Remember your Savior suffered under Pontius Pilate, one of the worst Roman governors Judea ever had; and Paul under Nero, the worst Roman Emperor. And neither our Lord nor His Apostle denied or reviled the 'authority!'" (Newell)

d. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God: Since governments have authority from God, we are bound to obey them - unless, of course, they order us to do something in contradiction to God's law. Then, we are commanded to obey God before man (as in Acts 4:19).

e. Those who resist will bring judgment on themselves: God uses governing authorities as a check upon man's sinful desires and tendencies. Government can be an effective tool in resisting the effects of man's fallenness.

I think too sometimes God uses these evil leaders because it strengthens our faith. If you ever look at history you will notice a huge growth in the Christian faith when we have been the most persecute! So its not always God's wrath upon a suffering people...but God building up their strength and character...maturing them to be truly good people...to be a people that can over come evil with good! Romans 12:21 Its not about overcoming an evil government with violence or rebellion..that simply isn't taught in the NT.


Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=013
. (5-7) The Christian's responsibility towards government.

Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

a. Therefore you must be subject: We must be subject to government; not only because we fear punishment, but because we know it is right before God to do so.

i. For conscience sake: Christian obedience to the state is never blind - it obeys with the eyes of conscience wide open.

b. You also pay taxes . . . Render therefore to all their due: We are also to pay the taxes due from us, because there is a sense in which we support God's work when we do so.

i. By implication, Romans 13:6 also says that the taxes collected are to be used by government to get the job done of restraining evil and keeping an orderly society - not to enrich the government officials themselves.

c. Taxes . . . customs . . . fear . . . honor: We are to give to the state the money, honor, and proper reverence which are due to the state, all the while reserving our right to give to God that which is due to God alone. (Matthew 22:21)


Again, we help those who are put in authority by God. As Christ said, tribute to whom tribute is due.
Along this line, as citizens, we should do what we can do to appease those in authority even though we many not agree that God has put them there. I pay taxes and obey laws even though I might consider the laws foolish. I'm sure there will come a day when I have to take a stand for righteousness sake and suffer the consequences for what I do. Whether I fight with weapons, I don't know. Doubtfully. But I might have to protect my loved ones. I hope that day never comes.


I am sorry but you are seriously misreading this whole passage...there is nothing about only certain people being placed their by God that we should support....it clearly says everyone is placed their by God. There is nothing in the bible saying to support only those you 'think' God put there...they all are put there. We don't have to support them but we do have to submit to them.


Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Notice it says "is due." I'm not going to render anything to anyone who doesn't deserve it.


I don't know how you got 'is due' as meaning IF they deserve it. This is about taxes anyway ...and its not giving you a choice either.

7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.


Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

whoa...this is a different law you are quoting here..this isn't about following government laws..its about the OT laws...


I don't ask for favors from the government. Churches make the mistake of applying for tax exempt status. What the government gives, it can take and what it allows, it controls. There will come a time when the hands of local churches will be tied because they "owe the government."

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Why would God ask us citizens not to kill then allow the government to do the same? The same goes for adultery, lying etc.
I can't understand for the life of me how a person can kill another person and at the same time love them like a neighbor.
A government that would ask us to kill is not of God.


Are you talking about as in war? There is nothing in these passage saying God will only appoint leaders that follow His Ten commandments...


Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Again this is in regards to the Laws In the bible...not in regard to government laws.


Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

The problem as I see it is this: So many believers put their trust in this present administration and in all honesty have seen nothing but colossal failure. In desperation they look for something in scripture to back their mistaken blunder up and to shift the blame from their shoulders to someone else's. Who better to blame than God?

Whoa again! So you think I posted this because messed up? Did I say that in the topic of this thread? No I didn't. I clearly said why I posted it. I posted it because I am seeing posts on here of Christians saying because they think the government is evil they don't have to follow the laws...and this isn't bibical. This thread has nothing to do with who voted for who in the last election. And no one is blaming God...I think He gave us what we deserved...don't you? He is in control of everything...correct?



So as America teeters on the brink of destruction we can smugly sit by and say, "it's all God's fault. He put them in leadership."

No one is saying that. Well except you. Since we ARE all Christians on here do you really think we would 'snugly' blame God...do you think we are that apostate or what?


In the meantime we allow "whatever will be" to overtake us and destroy what little freedoms we have left here in this country in the name of God.

If that is what the bible says to do...then yea...why not trust God will take care of things...might not be what we think should be done...but if we say we are followers of Christ, then yea...why not put our trust in God?



We're to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. (Matt. 10:6)

I think the key word here is 'harmless as a dove'...;)


We can live in peace but we have to have enough common sense coupled with spirituality to understand and overcome the times we live in. If we don't, then we will perish with the crowd.

I think the bible says something about trusting in our own wisdom is pretty foolish...
1 Corinthians 1:20
So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the worlds brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.

Romans 11
33 Oh, how great are Gods riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

34 For who can know the Lords thoughts?
Who knows enough to give him advice?


God bless

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:47 PM
I tried to rep you for this post, Moonglow.

You and I seem to be on the same exact page here:


V

Thanks. :)


Teke
Quote:

Originally Posted by moonglow
Probably...accourding to scriptures. As I said the early Christians were being persecuted but they did not rebel against the government or people going after them. We see nothing about them taking up arms or fighting back. They ran and hide and when they could they kept preaching the gospel but many were killed.
I wouldn't take up arms/weapons to fight my government. That is not the way things are done in the US. In my country I have a voice and I will use that voice. Whether it falls on deaf ears or is not as loud as the majority, I am still at liberty to be heard.

Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Because,

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And of course we continually pray for the whole world

Yes..very good. Of course obeying the government doesn't mean to be so idle we do nothing about the injustice in it. People help pass new bills all the time that improve our lives! Sadly many times they don't do this until they are directly affected though. Like why do we have the Amber alert now in our country? Because of the brutal kidnapping and murder of a little girl name Amber. :( But this new law has helped save many children!

So of course we need to pray for our leaders and we can speak for those that have no voice...such as Amber...we can do things to improve our country to make it safer and for our communities. In that sense, yes we need to be involved. Submitting doesn't mean...do nothing at all but obey. If a law is wrong and hurtful, then people can act without rebellion to change it. Which then makes me wonder about Martin Luther King Jr? :hmm:Though I don't think he was rebelling as in not obeying the laws..but protesting unfair laws...discrimination...and his protest were never volition though people did act violently against him and his group.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 05:51 PM
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. Matt 22:21

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29


Cya

Acts 5:29 was in regard to the Jewish leaders telling them to not preach about Jesus. Romans 13 God tells us to obey the government.

God bless

Teke
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:20 PM
Yes..very good. Of course obeying the government doesn't mean to be so idle we do nothing about the injustice in it. People help pass new bills all the time that improve our lives! Sadly many times they don't do this until they are directly affected though. Like why do we have the Amber alert now in our country? Because of the brutal kidnapping and murder of a little girl name Amber. :( But this new law has helped save many children!

So of course we need to pray for our leaders and we can speak for those that have no voice...such as Amber...we can do things to improve our country to make it safer and for our communities. In that sense, yes we need to be involved. Submitting doesn't mean...do nothing at all but obey. If a law is wrong and hurtful, then people can act without rebellion to change it. Which then makes me wonder about Martin Luther King Jr? :hmm:Though I don't think he was rebelling as in not obeying the laws..but protesting unfair laws...discrimination...and his protest were never volition though people did act violently against him and his group.

God bless

It basically is a matter jurisprudence. I believe this is what Jesus meant.

Paul had a greater advantage than the other Apostles on this ground. He is the only one I see in scripture declared a Roman citizen. That coupled with his ties as a Pharisee gave him an advantage. One that saved his life more than once from both sides (Roman and Jewish councils)

We also see jurisprudence in scripture in terms like "natural law" which is the way many saw law in general.


Here is how Wikipedia has the three perspectives described


* Natural law is the idea that there are unchangeable laws of nature which govern us, and that our laws and institutions should try to align with this natural law.
* Analytic jurisprudence asks questions distinctive to legal philosophy like, "What is law?" "What are the criteria for legal validity?" or "What is the relationship between law and morality?" and other such questions that legal philosophers may engage.
* Normative jurisprudence asks what law ought to be. It is close to political philosophy, and includes questions of whether one ought to obey the law, on what grounds law-breakers might properly be punished, the proper uses and limits of regulation, how judges ought to decide cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisprudence


So what do you think ?

moonglow
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:46 PM
It basically is a matter jurisprudence. I believe this is what Jesus meant.

Paul had a greater advantage than the other Apostles on this ground. He is the only one I see in scripture declared a Roman citizen. That coupled with his ties as a Pharisee gave him an advantage. One that saved his life more than once from both sides (Roman and Jewish councils)

We also see jurisprudence in scripture in terms like "natural law" which is the way many saw law in general.



So what do you think ?

Jesus actually introduced the first human rights...and women's right and children's right is what I see. Saving the least of these was important on moral grounds and actually in the long run helped society rather then creating a burden. They became productive members of society instead of outcast. I think He made some very radical and major changes in the world! whether that has to do with this jurisprudence or not I don't know. :lol: I think the thinking was back then..ignore the beggars the widows and the orphans and carry on...not always a good thing as as times in history we see the aggression of the peasants..the poor actually attack the ruling government!

Laws were suppose to be for the benefit of all...couldn't have serial killers running around...that creates fear and unrest and the people demanding justice...they in turn lost workers and tax payers...you can't work and pay taxes if you are dead...:rolleyes: Not allowing stealing and on and on and on...all either benefits the people as a whole or the individual or both....usually both. Adultery...look at how many murders happen due to that and scandles and uprisings? (and still happens). The laws were to protect the people and bring justice to the offenders. Yea Paul was lucky in that and I don't think it was an accident he was a Roman citizen either! Who better to send to Rome to preach then a citizen! God's pretty smart..;) lol

God bless

Emanate
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:26 PM
Jesus actually introduced the first human rights...and women's right and children's right is what I see.


This is true to a point. If you mean in the first century, you are completely wrong. But the Laws and Commands that he spoke at Sinai are full of the human rights you speak of.

daughter
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:35 PM
That's right. Laws to protect the "resident alien", to protect orphans and widows, to enable the destitute to work off their debts. Even environmental and animal welfare laws. Every aspect of government, from housing matters, through farming, finance and immigration are covered by the law.

I like your sig Emanate - Torah should delight all of us. :hug:

Steve M
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:18 PM
Acts 5:29 was in regard to the Jewish leaders telling them to not preach about Jesus. Romans 13 God tells us to obey the government.

God bless
I find these absolute commands to run afoul of each other.

That is to say; the Rom 13 command would apply to the situation that Apostles were in, and would seem to say they should obey and preach Christ no more.

But they overrode that with a higher authority; when man tells you to disobey God, you follow God, not man.

So if the law says that Jews are no longer people and to shelter them from the killing to come is a crime, I must obey God rather than man...

Because any construct we have over rebellion against the government has to apply equally to the American government, Stalin's government, Hitler's government... all were put in place by God, and all are equally covered by Romans 13.

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:43 PM
This is true to a point. If you mean in the first century, you are completely wrong. But the Laws and Commands that he spoke at Sinai are full of the human rights you speak of.

I would have to disagree with you on this because even by the time Christ came the women had little to no rights. Her husband could divorce her over a burnt meal...for really no reason at all. See another woman he thinks is more pretty and divorce his wife and go marry this lady. It took two women to testify in court before it would be counted as true..unlike the word of a man. We can look more closely as some of the OT laws if you want but I don't see women being treated well at all.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:49 PM
I find these absolute commands to run afoul of each other.

That is to say; the Rom 13 command would apply to the situation that Apostles were in, and would seem to say they should obey and preach Christ no more.

But they overrode that with a higher authority; when man tells you to disobey God, you follow God, not man.

So if the law says that Jews are no longer people and to shelter them from the killing to come is a crime, I must obey God rather than man...

Because any construct we have over rebellion against the government has to apply equally to the American government, Stalin's government, Hitler's government... all were put in place by God, and all are equally covered by Romans 13.

Of course...I should have worded it differently. Submitting to the government is not always the same as obeying...and of course God over rules. Anything that would cause us to sin against Him, we simply cannot do which I think I made clearer in my first post.

But my post wasn't about dealing with extreme situations which everyone is bringing up! Its about some Christians right now on the board that feel its ok to disobey the government...to break laws simply because they think its evil.

As far as I know...our government right now...is not passing any laws that would cause us to sin against God. So its not even an issue...but these Christians feel they have the right to actively rebel against our government. that is the topic.

Sorry to bold that part but I am a little frustrated no one is addressing the current real situation going on with some members on this board that feel rebelling against our government now is ok....

God bless

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:15 PM
Jesus actually introduced the first human rights...and women's right and children's right is what I see. Saving the least of these was important on moral grounds and actually in the long run helped society rather then creating a burden. They became productive members of society instead of outcast. I think He made some very radical and major changes in the world! whether that has to do with this jurisprudence or not I don't know. :lol: I think the thinking was back then..ignore the beggars the widows and the orphans and carry on...not always a good thing as as times in history we see the aggression of the peasants..the poor actually attack the ruling government!

Laws were suppose to be for the benefit of all...couldn't have serial killers running around...that creates fear and unrest and the people demanding justice...they in turn lost workers and tax payers...you can't work and pay taxes if you are dead...:rolleyes: Not allowing stealing and on and on and on...all either benefits the people as a whole or the individual or both....usually both. Adultery...look at how many murders happen due to that and scandles and uprisings? (and still happens). The laws were to protect the people and bring justice to the offenders. Yea Paul was lucky in that and I don't think it was an accident he was a Roman citizen either! Who better to send to Rome to preach then a citizen! God's pretty smart..;) lol

God bless

The reason I brought up jurisprudence is because that is how a person "sees" the law, whether that be a law of the land (government) or any other laws. Here is an example of Jesus' view, He is comparing their "tradition" meaning their traditional view of the law/commandments.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].

Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

So how far is a person who doesn't even honor such a command/law from also rebelling against government and justifying it by their "tradition". In the US we are not required by law to "honor" our parents or care for them. IOW that's a US "tradition" (understanding of law).

jesuslover1968
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:32 PM
Sorry to bold that part but I am a little frustrated no one is addressing the current real situation going on with some members on this board that feel rebelling against our government now is ok....


For what it's worth, I think you're right Moonglow. I do see a very big lack of obedience to the laws, which we are supposed to adhere to. I think it IS a problem and I think pastors should take their congregants to task for it. As long as the law doesn't go against God, we are to obey it. I think one of the biggest problems is that there are very few laws in our government that don't go against God at some point or another.
As far as our government not going against anything of God, I would have to disagree. Our Gov. is trying to pass partial birth abortion laws, stem-cell research, ( which to me the big thing here is that they need those abortions to have the stem cells...) homosexual's rights, etc, are going to be an issue. All these things are on the table. It's what's making up big parts of the candidate's campaigns. It is a scary thing what people are willing to do, what morals they are willing to give up etc, and I think that's why Christians are against the Gov.

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:33 PM
The reason I brought up jurisprudence is because that is how a person "sees" the law, whether that be a law of the land (government) or any other laws. Here is an example of Jesus' view, He is comparing their "tradition" meaning their traditional view of the law/commandments.

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free].

Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

So how far is a person who doesn't even honor such a command/law from also rebelling against government and justifying it by their "tradition". In the US we are not required by law to "honor" our parents or care for them. IOW that's a US "tradition" (understanding of law).

Ok I understand better....that definition you posted before I didn't understand. The bible verses though help. :)

God bless

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:21 PM
For what it's worth, I think you're right Moonglow. I do see a very big lack of obedience to the laws, which we are supposed to adhere to. I think it IS a problem and I think pastors should take their congregants to task for it. As long as the law doesn't go against God, we are to obey it. I think one of the biggest problems is that there are very few laws in our government that don't go against God at some point or another.
As far as our government not going against anything of God, I would have to disagree. Our Gov. is trying to pass partial birth abortion laws, stem-cell research, ( which to me the big thing here is that they need those abortions to have the stem cells...) homosexual's rights, etc, are going to be an issue. All these things are on the table. It's what's making up big parts of the candidate's campaigns. It is a scary thing what people are willing to do, what morals they are willing to give up etc, and I think that's why Christians are against the Gov.


They believe they've figured out how to make stem cells out of skin cells now. And they don't have to be embryonic either. For example they've found a way to change pancreatic cells so that they can help reduce or eliminate diabetes in mice. Can't wait to see if it works in humans.


However, this brings me to a query. When do you guys believe Life begins? Someone suggested to me the other day, that if the fertilized Egg doesn't attach inside the mother that it is not able to be born, that it was not life until that happened. I honestly don't have an answer for that.attaches. When does conception take place? is it when the two come together? Or is it when it is affixed in the mother? Hrms... is this even the right form for this.. I'm not sure :/

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:03 PM
For what it's worth, I think you're right Moonglow. I do see a very big lack of obedience to the laws, which we are supposed to adhere to. I think it IS a problem and I think pastors should take their congregants to task for it. As long as the law doesn't go against God, we are to obey it. I think one of the biggest problems is that there are very few laws in our government that don't go against God at some point or another.
As far as our government not going against anything of God, I would have to disagree. Our Gov. is trying to pass partial birth abortion laws, stem-cell research, ( which to me the big thing here is that they need those abortions to have the stem cells...) homosexual's rights, etc, are going to be an issue. All these things are on the table. It's what's making up big parts of the candidate's campaigns. It is a scary thing what people are willing to do, what morals they are willing to give up etc, and I think that's why Christians are against the Gov.

Oops we must have been posting at the same time cause I didn't see your post until I saw Veretax quote you.

Oh I never said our government or any here on earth wouldn't have things about it that go against God....sure they do! Some more then others.

On the stem cell issues actually they have found that getting those from a baby BORN through the umbilical cord is much more valuable...plus alot can be done with adult stem cells. Last time I read up on all of this they were having major problems with the stem cells from aborted babies...very serious health problems from those stem cells. I think people would generally want to use something that isn't from the result of anyone's death...so if getting them from a baby born alive and healthy from their umbilical cord...choosing that over using aborted babies...I think most would do the first one. But its been a couple of years since I really read up alot on it too so my information might be outdated.


Our Gov. is trying to pass partial birth abortion laws,

Now on this one I think you might be outdated. The government already had laws allowing partial birth abortion...which was finally outlawed in this past couple of years...but then some rights people blocked it...for awhile anyway but I think now its not legal to do.

Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act)
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The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (Pub.L. 108-105, 117 Stat. 1201, enacted November 5, 2003, 18 U.S.C. 1531[1], PBA Ban) is a United States law prohibiting a form of late-term abortion that the Act calls partial-birth abortion. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the term "partial-birth abortion" in the act pertains to a procedure that is medically called intact dilation and extraction.[2] Under this law, "Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both." The law was enacted in 2003, and in 2007 its constitutionality was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.


homosexual's rights

As I said in my first post we do not HAVE to engage in any of these activities...no one is being forced to have an abortion (unlike in certain other countries) no one is going to make any of us marry a homosexual...

While the government allows some laws we don't agree with..it doesn't mean we have to do them. Like no fault divorce...used to be nearly impossible to get a divorce...now its very easy ...does that mean we should run out and get a divorce too at the drop of the hat? no and the government isn't making us get a divorce. See what I mean? So far the government isn't passing any laws that would cause us to sin against God....so their is no reason to not submit to it. That verse even says we will be in big trouble with God if we don't! Submit to His wrath...since He places our government here.


God bless

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:19 PM
Truthfully, submission to government and abiding by laws seems to be a problem in general in America. You need look no further than the Highways and Byways to find plenty of law breaking going on it seems. So maybe there is more to it than just "Christian" rebellion.

Teke
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:48 PM
Moonglow, since you've shown the difference in government law and God's commands/law. What is really upsetting you. That the people your concerned with are breaking government laws or God's. I would be more troubled about the latter. And it seems to me that you would as well, as strong a point as you've made about the difference.

One of the things I wanted you to note about jurisprudence, is that there are those who see the natural law as over riding any other laws. IOW it's like saying, 'an unjust law is no law at all'. Some that have posted on subjects such as abortion are in essence saying that.

Lord knows it's confusing trying to figure out what people think. I'm just curious why this bothers YOU so much. Is it because of the scripture on obeying the governing authorities? Is that a law to you? Some religions do not follow government laws because they do not recognize them as governing "authorities" over them, but only their group or church. Such discontent carries over into our churches, and even some do not recognize the authority of their church over them. Maybe they don't really understand what authority is or how to handle it. There are various reasons.

Even in our country not every state has the same laws. All of the nation of the US is under what is known as "common law", yet one state, which happens to be the one I live in isn't. Louisiana is governed by what is known as "Napoleonic code", which is laws from Constantinople. We have parishes instead of counties and even within them the laws vary. Who could possibly keep up with all laws in our country.

So are you really talking about law in relation to government, or the governing authorities in general. If the latter, I'd agree there is growing discontent with those authorities because they have no dignity in the eyes of many. They are viewed with much suspicion by the people they govern. The reasons should be obvious.

Americans in general have a problem with authority, whether that be the government or their church, both have leaders and without the honor of the people to dignify them, they mean nothing. All Americans wrestle with this, which most likely makes it a spiritual problem.

jesuslover1968
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:07 PM
They believe they've figured out how to make stem cells out of skin cells now. And they don't have to be embryonic either. For example they've found a way to change pancreatic cells so that they can help reduce or eliminate diabetes in mice. Can't wait to see if it works in humans.





yeah, I believe that's probably true, but you know, stem cells from full term babies are more viable, so it's a big circle...



However, this brings me to a query. When do you guys believe Life begins? Someone suggested to me the other day, that if the fertilized Egg doesn't attach inside the mother that it is not able to be born, that it was not life until that happened. I honestly don't have an answer for that.attaches. When does conception take place? is it when the two come together? Or is it when it is affixed in the mother? Hrms... is this even the right form for this.. I'm not sure :/

I think life begins when God creates that baby, which is the moment of conception. The moment the egg is fertilized.

jesuslover1968
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:11 PM
Now on this one I think you might be outdated. The government already had laws allowing partial birth abortion...which was finally outlawed in this past couple of years...but then some rights people blocked it...for awhile anyway but I think now its not legal to do.


Did you watch the presidential debates? And the vice presidential? Yes, partial birth abortion was dealt with, but it will be dealt with again. Senator Obama is FOR this. Of course, when asked about it, I can't remember his exact words, but he danced around the subject, like most politicians, never truly answering the question.

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 03:20 PM
Moonglow, since you've shown the difference in government law and God's commands/law. What is really upsetting you. That the people your concerned with are breaking government laws or God's. I would be more troubled about the latter. And it seems to me that you would as well, as strong a point as you've made about the difference.

One of the things I wanted you to note about jurisprudence, is that there are those who see the natural law as over riding any other laws. IOW it's like saying, 'an unjust law is no law at all'. Some that have posted on subjects such as abortion are in essence saying that.

Lord knows it's confusing trying to figure out what people think. I'm just curious why this bothers YOU so much. Is it because of the scripture on obeying the governing authorities? Is that a law to you? Some religions do not follow government laws because they do not recognize them as governing "authorities" over them, but only their group or church. Such discontent carries over into our churches, and even some do not recognize the authority of their church over them. Maybe they don't really understand what authority is or how to handle it. There are various reasons.

Even in our country not every state has the same laws. All of the nation of the US is under what is known as "common law", yet one state, which happens to be the one I live in isn't. Louisiana is governed by what is known as "Napoleonic code", which is laws from Constantinople. We have parishes instead of counties and even within them the laws vary. Who could possibly keep up with all laws in our country.

So are you really talking about law in relation to government, or the governing authorities in general. If the latter, I'd agree there is growing discontent with those authorities because they have no dignity in the eyes of many. They are viewed with much suspicion by the people they govern. The reasons should be obvious.

Americans in general have a problem with authority, whether that be the government or their church, both have leaders and without the honor of the people to dignify them, they mean nothing. All Americans wrestle with this, which most likely makes it a spiritual problem.

Seems like to me from that passage in the bible if a person is breaking the laws of their government they are breaking a law of God's...those passages are very clear to me. God says to submit to those in authority...and gives a warning from Him if you don't! So if a person breaks a government law with no good reason other then they see the government as bad, they are also disobeying God too..so both are broken. Expect of course in cases where following the government laws would cause us to sin against God....that is the only exception. These members have declared publicity on here they don't have to follow the laws in the government because they decided the government was evil. Well it is in many ways but I see nothing in that passage that says don't follow the laws if the government is evil.

On the case of abortion...while its God's laws to not do such a thing...our government is not forcing any of us to have an abortion (though in some other countries that does happen) So while we see the government as being in sin on this...and of course we can do things legally to try to change those laws...those laws are not making us sin. So to say...ok I am not going to pay my taxes or abide by the speed limits and drive however I want because this evil government allows abortion, would make no sense. I have no idea how these people are rebelling against the government as they won't say or what laws they are breaking. Since the law isn't making us have abortions...what in relation to that is there for us to break?

Its like that one man who said he was a Christian that shot and killed an abortion doctor. He broke God's law and the government laws on killing...but saw what he was doing as a good thing...believing he was doing God's work...if he killed that doctor that doctor couldn't kill unborn babies. That is how he justified it in his mind. Now image if all of us decided that was a good thing and started violently attacking all these doctors and clinics? (which at one time was happening by Christians!) Wouldn't the people become fearful of us and think we were dangerous...which could lead to them pressing the government to have us all locked up. And what good that do? We would be locked up and they would carry on with their abortions...plus Christ certainly didn't teach us to be violent! We are to be responsible contributing members of society. Not rebels towards the government. Even Jesus didn't rebel against Rome who was terrorizing and oppressing the Jews.


Americans in general have a problem with authority, whether that be the government or their church, both have leaders and without the honor of the people to dignify them, they mean nothing. All Americans wrestle with this, which most likely makes it a spiritual problem.

I think you hit the nail on the head there!

We are to be SHEEP...this is what the bible calls us. Sheep are suppose to follow and obey the shepherd ..and those in authority. I have heard many pastors giving sermons on sheep, how timid sheep are..one said that sheep won't even drink water from a running stream...the water's movement unnerves them so the Shepard would have to damn up the stream to make the water's still. Psalm 23. The Lord is my Shepard...He maketh me lay by still waters..

We aren't described as wolves or bears or tigers but sheep! But apparently some think they are suppose to act like tigers and bears...:rolleyes:

God bless

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 03:21 PM
Did you watch the presidential debates? And the vice presidential? Yes, partial birth abortion was dealt with, but it will be dealt with again. Senator Obama is FOR this. Of course, when asked about it, I can't remember his exact words, but he danced around the subject, like most politicians, never truly answering the question.

I only watched part of it..I think he would have a hard time getting it reversed..would take years and changes in the supreme court judges..plus fight against the medical PROOF now that these babies CAN feel pain!

:cry:

Makes me sick to even think about it...

God bless