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kkeller
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:32 PM
This may be an easy question, but I've heard from time-to-time pastors say (when someone is saved) "...your sins are forgiven, past, present and future..." Can anyone point me to some scriptures that support that? God bless.

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:53 PM
This may be an easy question, but I've heard from time-to-time pastors say (when someone is saved) "...your sins are forgiven, past, present and future..." Can anyone point me to some scriptures that support that? God bless.

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I hope that helps.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

uric3
Oct 22nd 2008, 06:57 PM
This may be an easy question, but I've heard from time-to-time pastors say (when someone is saved) "...your sins are forgiven, past, present and future..." Can anyone point me to some scriptures that support that? God bless.

I would say 2/3rds of that statement is true the past and present part anyway but not future. We see that our sins are washed away once we are baptized Acts 22:16... however if we sin after we have become a child of God we need to repent and pray for forgiveness.

Acts 8:18-22 - we Simon who obeyed the gospel earlier in the chapter thinks he can buy the gift of God.

" 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."

Notice verse 22 he is told to repent and pray for forgiveness... if "past, present, and future" sins was forgiven why would he shouldn't have to do anything...

Also notice if we don't repent of our sins God will not forgive us... nor will we be forgiven if we don't forgive others. Mark 11:25-27

Biastai
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:08 PM
According to Acts, Peter and Paul preached forgiveness of sins (without distinction of past, present, or future) in his Gentile ministry.

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Acts 10:43, Peter's words to a Gentile convert Cornelius

"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."
Acts 13:38,39, Paul to the Pisidian Antiochenes

No completely explicit reference to sins past, present, and future, but also there was no distinction between when sins were committed. One could argue past sins was meant in 13:39 from the tense in "everything you could not be justified from." Future sins may be a problematic claim if the motive of the sinner is taken into consideration i.e. one using this forgiveness as one would use a "Get out of Jail Free" card in Monopoly.

Firstfruits
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:36 PM
According to Acts, Peter and Paul preached forgiveness of sins (without distinction of past, present, or future) in his Gentile ministry.

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Acts 10:43, Peter's words to a Gentile convert Cornelius

"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."
Acts 13:38,39, Paul to the Pisidian Antiochenes

No completely explicit reference to sins past, present, and future, but also there was no distinction between when sins were committed. One could argue past sins was meant in 13:39 from the tense in "everything you could not be justified from." Future sins may be a problematic claim if the motive of the sinner is taken into consideration i.e. one using this forgiveness as one would use a "Get out of Jail Free" card in Monopoly.

What about this scripture?

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:44 PM
1 Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

Biastai
Oct 22nd 2008, 07:50 PM
What about this scripture?

Rom 3:25 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Firstfruits

Yep, that would definitely cover past sins. Future sin is the most troublesome area. The present is a single point in time, so I don't think anyone really talks about present sins i.e. the sin one commits right this moment? Eliminating the present, we're left with the 2 time spans past and future. Teachings concerning the future sins are a tricky area because of the different ways the teachings can be received. We don't want to encourage any indulgent fits of licentiousness that may seem permitted due to perceived guarantees of pardon.

RoadWarrior
Oct 22nd 2008, 08:15 PM
Yep, that would definitely cover past sins. Future sin is the most troublesome area. The present is a single point in time, so I don't think anyone really talks about present sins i.e. the sin one commits right this moment? Eliminating the present, we're left with the 2 time spans past and future. Teachings concerning the future sins are a tricky area because of the different ways the teachings can be received. We don't want to encourage any indulgent fits of licentiousness that may seem permitted due to perceived guarantees of pardon.

One of the ways that I deal with questions like this is to put my life through the filter of what the Scripture says. Now I know that when I came to the Lord and was born again, there was a difference in how I felt. I knew there was a change in me, I felt clean, the burden lifted from me.

However as time went by and I had not shaken off all my old ways, I fell back into sins of habit. I learned that when that happened, some of the clean and unburdened free feeling faded away from me. I also learned that I could trust 1 Jn 1:8-10.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I learned that when I sinned and felt the guilt, that it was right and good for me to go to Him in prayer, confess the sin, ask forgiveness and also ask for help that I not stumble into the same thing again.

Over time, my stumbles got less and less. Nevertheless, I am still in the world, I still walk in the world, and sometimes I stumble in what I used to call "small things." So I still find that there are times I need to confess sin and ask forgiveness and be cleansed by Him.

I think the scene in the upper room is a picture of what this looks like for me on a daily basis. I walk in the world, I get my feet dirty, they need to be washed. I had my full bath already (salvation) but I need to wash my feet.

Jn 13:3-17
3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God, 4 rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. 5 After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, "Lord, are You washing my feet?"
7 Jesus answered and said to him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this."
8 Peter said to Him, "You shall never wash my feet!"
Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
9 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!"
10 Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean."
12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
NKJV

kkeller
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:12 PM
thank you Firstfruits, Uric3, Roadwarrior, Biastai, for your responses. My question is based on what I think I've heard in the past and for some reason I was thinking about it today. I was sure there was no distinction of forgiveness of present or future sins...just wanted some clarification, that's the beauty of this board!! Praise the Lord! God bless you all.

chad
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:41 AM
Hi KKeller,

This is quite a complex question becuase it deals with :

1) how sin entered the world.
2) The old testmanent law
3) Jesus being the fulfilment of that law and the start of a new covenant and priesthood.
4) Jesus Baptism
5) Jesus paying for our sins once and for all, for all humanity.

In my opinion, the bible says and most churches believe, that Jesus died for our sins once and for all, for all of humanity, who choose to accept his salvation and follow him.

(Rom 5:17 NIV) For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

(Rom 6:23 NIV) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Rom 6:10 NIV) The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.


To put the other side of the discussion, Hebrews challenges us on the subject of our sins being paid once and for all (past, present and future).

(Heb 10:26 NIV) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

(29) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

(30) For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."


1 John encourages us to walk in the light after repentence.

(1 John 1:6 NIV) If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

(1 John 1:7 NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.



Chad.

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:56 AM
Hi KKeller,

This is quite a complex question becuase it deals with :

1) how sin entered the world.
2) The old testmanent law
3) Jesus being the fulfilment of that law and the start of a new covenant and priesthood.
4) Jesus Baptism
5) Jesus paying for our sins once and for all, for all humanity.

In my opinion, the bible says and most churches believe, that Jesus died for our sins once and for all, for all of humanity, who choose to accept his salvation and follow him.

(Rom 5:17 NIV) For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

(Rom 6:23 NIV) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Rom 6:10 NIV) The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

I guess the question your asking is can we sin, after we have repented of our sins Does our repentance cover all past, present and future sins?

1 John has some interesting verses, which challenge us to think about walking in the light after repentence.

(1 John 1:6 NIV) If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

(1 John 1:7 NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.


I guess a good question to ask is : Are we forgiven for our sins (present and future), if we deliberately and knowingly sin after repentance? :hmm:


Chad :rolleyes:




From this scripture; Lk 7:47 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=47) Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. Lk 7:48 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=7&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=48) And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Jesus forgave her sins up to the point of her forgiveness.

When Jesus forgives he does not do so expecting you to continue to sin after you have been forgiven.

Jn 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jn 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

chad
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:07 AM
Hi First Fruits,

When Jesus forgives he does not do so expecting you to continue to sin after you have been forgiven.

Jn 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jn 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.


Yes that is indeed a challenging question. So with the verses shared, it seems to imply that we can sin - even after repentence.

So does that mean forgiveness does not cover our future sins? :hmm:


Chad. :confused

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:20 AM
Hi First Fruits,

When Jesus forgives he does not do so expecting you to continue to sin after you have been forgiven.

Jn 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jn 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.


Yes that is indeed a challenging question. So with the verses shared, it seems to imply that we can sin - even after repentence.

So does that mean forgiveness does not cover our future sins? :hmm:


Chad. :confused

When our sins are forgiven, we are no longer unrighteous before God, why would a righteous person need to be forgiven.

Mt 9:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In Gods eyes we are either righteous or unrighteous.

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:49 AM
When our sins are forgiven, we are no longer unrighteous before God, why would a righteous person need to be forgiven.

Are you saying that Christians do not need to be forgiven after they are saved? What about this verse?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:9 NKJV

And in case you thought that verse refers to conversion, it doesn't (even though I was converted through it!) - the Greek tense is present continuous, so it clearly has to be an ongoing thing. Jesus teaches the same thing here:-

Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; Jn 13:10a NKJV

When we are saved, we are washed by Christ's blood - through His word - yet we still sin - and need to have our "feet washed", spiritually speaking - even though we are completely clean spiritually in an absolute sense.


Mt 9:13 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In Gods eyes we are either righteous or unrighteous.

Firstfruits

Of course we are either righteous or unrighteous, but you are confusing the fact that we are COUNTED righteous (even when we are not in ACTUALITY yet, because we are sinners) with Jesus' clear sarcasm about the religious leaders who THOUGHT they were righteous - that is clearly the "righteous" that Jesus is referring to here - as in the preceding phrase "those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick".. Are you seriously suggesting that, once we are saved, we have no need of Jesus?!?!

I alos note you believe that our future sins were not forgiven by Christ - so if we are righteous when we become Christians and don't need to be forgiven, are you saying thart a Christian never sins after they are saved? Seriously?!?!

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:20 AM
Are you saying that Christians do not need to be forgiven after they are saved? What about this verse?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:9 NKJV

And in case you thought that verse refers to conversion, it doesn't (even though I was converted through it!) - the Greek tense is present continuous, so it clearly has to be an ongoing thing. Jesus teaches the same thing here:-

Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; Jn 13:10a NKJV

When we are saved, we are washed by Christ's blood - through His word - yet we still sin - and need to have our "feet washed", spiritually speaking - even though we are completely clean spiritually in an absolute sense.



Of course we are either righteous or unrighteous, but you are confusing the fact that we are COUNTED righteous (even when we are not in ACTUALITY yet, because we are sinners) with Jesus' clear sarcasm about the religious leaders who THOUGHT they were righteous - that is clearly the "righteous" that Jesus is referring to here - as in the preceding phrase "those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick".. Are you seriously suggesting that, once we are saved, we have no need of Jesus?!?!

I alos note you believe that our future sins were not forgiven by Christ - so if we are righteous when we become Christians and don't need to be forgiven, are you saying thart a Christian never sins after they are saved? Seriously?!?!

When our sins are forgiven then in Gods eyes we are made righteous and that is as long as we remain in Christ.

When Jesus forgives us of our sins he does not expect us to sin, not that we cannot sin.

Jn 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jn 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.

Rom 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

1 Jn 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

We are not expected to sin but if we sin we need to be forgiven.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I hope that answers your questions.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Emanate
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:20 PM
I think the scene in the upper room is a picture of what this looks like for me on a daily basis. I walk in the world, I get my feet dirty, they need to be washed. I had my full bath already (salvation) but I need to wash my feet.



Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

I would say the gospel of peace would do a good job of keeping the feet clean, much better than constantly 'washing them' them by living in constant guilt.

9Marksfan
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:17 PM
When our sins are forgiven then in Gods eyes we are made righteous and that is as long as we remain in Christ.

When Jesus forgives us of our sins he does not expect us to sin, not that we cannot sin.

Jn 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jn 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.

Rom 4:7 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=4&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

1 Jn 2:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

We are not expected to sin but if we sin we need to be forgiven.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Jn 1:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=1&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I hope that answers your questions.

No it doesn't (although what you said is by and large true) - you didn't clarify this point:-

Firstfruits said: When our sins are forgiven, we are no longer unrighteous before God, why would a righteous person need to be forgiven.

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:25 PM
No it doesn't (although what you said is by and large true) - you didn't clarify this point:-

Firstfruits said: When our sins are forgiven, we are no longer unrighteous before God, why would a righteous person need to be forgiven.

When our sins are forgiven we are made righteous in the sight of God because our iniquities that made us unrighteous in the sight of God have been forgiven. Unless you sin again you do not need to forgiven.

Does that help?

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:48 PM
When our sins are forgiven we are made righteous in the sight of God because our iniquities that made us unrighteous in the sight of God have been forgiven. Unless you sin again you do not need to forgiven.

Does that help?

Firstfruits

The problem with that view is that it's like a game of ping pong all your days as a believer:-

Unrighteous! Lost! :cry:

Believe - righteous! :pp Forgiven! :D

Sin :o Unrighteous again! :cry: Unforgiven! :help:

Better repent quick or I'l go to Hell! :eek:

Repent :pray:

Righteous again! :pp

Till the next time.......

I would become suicidal if it were all down to me in the way you're recounting it!

RoadWarrior
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:58 PM
Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

I would say the gospel of peace would do a good job of keeping the feet clean, much better than constantly 'washing them' them by living in constant guilt.

You have a good point about wearing our shoes of the gospel of peace. There are several other pieces of armor that are needed, as well.

The bottom line is that there is always another sin lying in wait for us. We do not have to live in "constant guilt" as you say, we walk in the righteousness of Christ. Nevertheless, when we walk in the world, we get some dirt on our feet, even if we are wearing sandals as they did in those days. Jesus gave that illustration and had John write it into the Bible, because we need it. We will sin, even if it is that we get angry when a driver on the road cuts us off and we have to brake sharply. We can immediately recognize that small sin, and confess it.

The Bible tells us what we need for life and godliness, and how to walk in the Spirit. It is a journey, we get our feet dirty and they need to be washed. I find it interesting that this is something we are to do for each other. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples as an example.

Jas 5:16
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
KJV

Even on this board, you constantly see people offending one another. This is sin. When we offend each other, the right action to take is to recognize the sin, confess and ask forgiveness (apologize). Then the offended one forgives, and we can continue to walk together in fellowship and in peace.

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:16 PM
The problem with that view is that it's like a game of ping pong all your days as a believer:-

Unrighteous! Lost! :cry:

Believe - righteous! :pp Forgiven! :D

Sin :o Unrighteous again! :cry: Unforgiven! :help:

Better repent quick or I'l go to Hell! :eek:

Repent :pray:

Righteous again! :pp

Till the next time.......

I would become suicidal if it were all down to me in the way you're recounting it!

Why do you think Christ Jesus forgave their sins and told them not to sin no more?

Jn 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jn 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.


The instruction not to sin has not changed.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

God bless!!!

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:24 PM
Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

I would say the gospel of peace would do a good job of keeping the feet clean, much better than constantly 'washing them' them by living in constant guilt.

Emanate, sometimes I'm a bit slow to "get it". So maybe I am understanding you incorrectly. I've already responded to this post, but I want to do it again.

When you mention the gospel of peace, I was thinking that we need to be out sharing the gospel, but maybe you meant that we can be saved and come unsaved?

Not sure on what you mean on this. If a person is always walking in fear of losing their salvation, how do they get past the starting gate? I don't see it that way. When I accepted Jesus as my saviour, I started on a journey with Him. Running back to the start of the journey over and over would mean I'd never make it to the goal.

When we are babies learning to walk, we fall down a lot. But we get up and keep going. We have the shoes on, we just need to learn how to walk in them.

Anyway, that's another view of your comment. Maybe you could clarify what you really mean.

faithfulfriend
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:33 PM
The problem with that view is that it's like a game of ping pong all your days as a believer:-

Unrighteous! Lost! :cry:

Believe - righteous! :pp Forgiven! :D

Sin :o Unrighteous again! :cry: Unforgiven! :help:

Better repent quick or I'l go to Hell! :eek:

Repent :pray:

Righteous again! :pp

Till the next time.......

I would become suicidal if it were all down to me in the way you're recounting it!

That is an awful way to live, I agree. But who says that we HAVE to sin? Sin is a choice ,a willful choice.

Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Many believe that the Bible verse "if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive" is speaking that Christians can still sin and as long as they continually repent for their sins, then God will continually forgive. The scripture above in Hebrews completely refutes that notion. God's Word clearly states that once we are saved we are to go onto perfection (spiritual perfection, holiness) and need not repent ever again. If we were to sin after being saved, we would need to repent for our sins; but if God says that we are not to repent again then we are not to call for the need of repentance (we are not to sin).

Referring to I John 1:9, God will forgive people if they sin after being saved. The only thing is, when someone sins, they lose their salvation. In repenting, it is not in the midst of salvation but it is a renewal of salvation.

RoadWarrior
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:59 PM
...

Referring to I John 1:9, God will forgive people if they sin after being saved. The only thing is, when someone sins, they lose their salvation. In repenting, it is not in the midst of salvation but it is a renewal of salvation.

I strongly disagree with this. If a person has been born again, they have become adopted into God's family.

If all a person has is a Christian lifestyle, that can come and go. But a baby, once born into the world, does not become unborn.

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:20 PM
I strongly disagree with this. If a person has been born again, they have become adopted into God's family.

If all a person has is a Christian lifestyle, that can come and go. But a baby, once born into the world, does not become unborn.

When we are born again and our sins are forgiven, and we are made righteous in Gods eyes, what happens when we sin and again have unrighteousness in us? Do we not have to be restored to our state of righteousness by repenting and confessing our sins that they will be forgiven? Is there a place we can be between being righteous and unrighteous in the sight of God?

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

faithfulfriend
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:29 PM
I strongly disagree with this. If a person has been born again, they have become adopted into God's family.

If all a person has is a Christian lifestyle, that can come and go. But a baby, once born into the world, does not become unborn.

Hebrews 6:1 clearly states that we are not to relay the foundation of repentance, thus we are not to sin.

Another scripture to support this:

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just (saved) persons, which need no repentance.

As for you disagreeing that sin causes an individual to lose their salvation, there Biblical proof of this. Below are just a few of many scriptures concerning sin & salvation:

Ezk. 33:12-13 “The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression...neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth...if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die (spiritually die: ie lose salvation) for it.”


Gal. 2:17-18 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.”


2 Pet. 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning...The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

RoadWarrior
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:29 PM
When we are born again and our sins are forgiven, and we are made righteous in Gods eyes, what happens when we sin and again have unrighteousness in us? Do we not have to be restored to our state of righteousness by repenting and confessing our sins that they will be forgiven? Is there a place we can be between being righteous and unrighteous in the sight of God?

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

First of all we have to realize that we are not righteous in God's eyes because of our own state of perfect sinlessness. We put on the righteousness of Christ, and are acceptable because of His sacrifice, not our own.

We are an adopted child. But we are now a member of the family, not just a guest in the house. We belong to Him. However, we need a rather long period of training in how to be a functional, productive member of the family.

If your child disobeys you, does he cease to be your child? I think not. I think that what you do is lovingly correct and train your child, no matter how long it takes.

Are we better parents to our children than God is to us? I think not. I think that God is in the process of shaping us to be a perfect fit for the Kingdom.

Heb 12:5-11
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,And scourges every son whom He receives."

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. NKJV

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:42 PM
First of all we have to realize that we are not righteous in God's eyes because of our own state of perfect sinlessness. We put on the righteousness of Christ, and are acceptable because of His sacrifice, not our own.

We are an adopted child. But we are now a member of the family, not just a guest in the house. We belong to Him. However, we need a rather long period of training in how to be a functional, productive member of the family.

If your child disobeys you, does he cease to be your child? I think not. I think that what you do is lovingly correct and train your child, no matter how long it takes.

Are we better parents to our children than God is to us? I think not. I think that God is in the process of shaping us to be a perfect fit for the Kingdom.

Heb 12:5-11
5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,And scourges every son whom He receives."

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. NKJV

What I am asking is befor we became christains if we sinned we were unrighteous in Gods eyes, but when we put on Christ we put on his righteousnes. If sin makes us unrighteous, if a christain sins are they an unrighteous christian in Christ?

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:51 PM
What I am asking is befor we became christains if we sinned we were unrighteous in Gods eyes, but when we put on Christ we put on his righteousnes. If sin makes us unrighteous, if a christain sins are they an unrighteous christian in Christ?

Firstfruits

When a Christian sins, it causes a break in fellowship with God, not an abandonment of the child (Christian) by God.

When I sin as a Christian, I am just a child who stumbled, and I need to get up and try again.

When an unbeliever sins, there is no break in fellowship, because there was none in the first place. The unbeliever must seek God in order to be saved. The believer must seek God in order to stay in fellowship.

faithfulfriend
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:12 PM
When a Christian sins, it causes a break in fellowship with God, not an abandonment of the child (Christian) by God.

When I sin as a Christian, I am just a child who stumbled, and I need to get up and try again.

When an unbeliever sins, there is no break in fellowship, because there was none in the first place. The unbeliever must seek God in order to be saved. The believer must seek God in order to stay in fellowship.

So in order to be saved, all one must do is believe?

Firstfruits
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:28 PM
When a Christian sins, it causes a break in fellowship with God, not an abandonment of the child (Christian) by God.

When I sin as a Christian, I am just a child who stumbled, and I need to get up and try again.

When an unbeliever sins, there is no break in fellowship, because there was none in the first place. The unbeliever must seek God in order to be saved. The believer must seek God in order to stay in fellowship.

If a child falls and needs to try again, when applied to christians the following would therefore apply.

Rev 2:5 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=66&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Is that not exactly the same that is required by an unbeliever?

Mk 2:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=41&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Lk 3:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Lk 17:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Lk 17:4 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=17&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Acts 8:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=44&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Repentance is the key for all.

Firstfruits

Partaker of Christ
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:16 PM
When we are born again and our sins are forgiven, and we are made righteous in Gods eyes, what happens when we sin and again have unrighteousness in us? Do we not have to be restored to our state of righteousness by repenting and confessing our sins that they will be forgiven? Is there a place we can be between being righteous and unrighteous in the sight of God?

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

And what about any sin you cannot recall?
What about sin, you did not know was sin?

Obviously you cannot confess those sins can you?

Question:
Is it a sin to go against or pray against God's will?

chad
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:07 PM
Ok, I have been doing some study on this last night and I will post some ideas. Ok regarding sin. yes the bible says we are forgiven and purified for our sins, throught Jesus Christ.

The Sacrifice and Atonement, throught Jesus is different than under the law of moses, because we are under a different covenant.

Jesus became our high priest (Hebrews 4:14-16) in the order of Melchizedek. (Heb 5:6-10 NIV).

Jesus has replaced the old covenant of the law and replaced it with a new covenant (Hebrews 6:20; 7:11-24).

Through Jesus we are completely forgiven, Jesus does not have to offer sacrifices day after day, as the high priests did under the old covenant. (Hebrews 7:25-27; 9:24-28)

So in Jesus death, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of Jesus body once and for all. (Hebrews 10:8-12)


In John it speaks of continual sin.

(1 John 2:1-2) but if we do sin, we have Jesus who speaks in our defence. Jesus is our atoning sacrifice for our sin.

Because we are born of God (Born again?) God keeps us safe

(1 John 5:18 NIV) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

(1 John 3:9 NIV) No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (10) This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.


But there is also Deliberate Sin


But the bible also speaks of deliberate sin. If we knowingly and deliberately sin, then we will be judged. Hebrews (10:26-31)

(Heb 10:26 NIV) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

(Heb 10:29 NIV) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

(30) For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." (31) It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Possibly on the day of judgement (Rev20:12-13)


Chad :confused

faithfulfriend
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:38 PM
But there is also Deliberate Sin


But the bible also speaks of deliberate sin. If we knowingly and deliberately sin, then we will be judged. Hebrews (10:26-31)

(Heb 10:26 NIV) If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (28) Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

(Heb 10:29 NIV) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

(30) For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." (31) It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Possibly on the day of judgement (Rev20:12-13)


Chad :confused

Sin always has been, and always will be deliberate. There is no such thing as "accidental" sin or sinning "unknowingly".

Sin is a transgression of the law:

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

The law of Christ is the law.

Ga 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


i) Sin is a willful transgression.
John 9:41 - Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

James 4:17 - Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

ii) Sin is not a mistake and a mistake is not sin.

Matthew 5:28 (Sin) - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Acts 23:2-5 (Mistake in judgment) - And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:48 PM
Sin always has been, and always will be deliberate. There is no such thing as "accidental" sin or sinning "unknowingly".

Sorry, but this is wrong.

I will try and get back to this tomorrow.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Lev 4:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Lev 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
Lev 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

Num 15:24 Then it shall be, if aught be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savor unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Num 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Num 15:26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

chad
Oct 24th 2008, 12:42 AM
Hi Faithfulfriend,

I was reading the old testament today and found some verses that mention sins which are unintentionally committed.

(Lev 4:2 NIV) "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands-- (3) "'If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the LORD a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed.

(Lev 4:13 NIV) "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.

(Lev 4:22 NIV) "'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.

(Lev 4:27 NIV) "'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, he is guilty.

(Lev 5:15 NIV) "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the Lord's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the
proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering.

(Num 15:27 NIV) "'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering.

(Num 15:29 NIV) One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien.

(Ezek 45:20 NIV) You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.

So I would have to politely disagree, that sin cannot be committed unintentionally.


Chad.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 01:10 AM
Lev 4:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Lev 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
Lev 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

Num 15:24 Then it shall be, if aught be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savor unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Num 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Num 15:26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.


Hi Faithfulfriend,

I was reading the old testament today and found some verses that mention sins which are unintentionally committed.

(Lev 4:2 NIV) "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands-- (3) "'If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the LORD a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed.

(Lev 4:13 NIV) "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty.

(Lev 4:22 NIV) "'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty.

(Lev 4:27 NIV) "'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands, he is guilty.

(Lev 5:15 NIV) "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the Lord's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the
proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering.

(Num 15:27 NIV) "'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering.

(Num 15:29 NIV) One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien.

(Ezek 45:20 NIV) You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.

So I would have to politely disagree, that sin cannot be committed unintentionally.


Chad.

You ignored the scriptures I posted in my first post. Also, the NIV changes the meaning of the scriptures, for example I'll take one verse you gave me and show you what the real scripture says (aka the KJV):

Nu 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sinning through ignorance means an individual being ignorant of the law of God, but yet committing sin. But as Romans 5 states, if an individual has KNOWLEDGE that they are committing sin, then it is imputed (charged) unto them. But if an individual is ignorant of the law of God, they are not imputed (charged) with sin.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Once again, where there is no knowledge of God's law, there is no transgression against it.

For an example, you cannot be married and not know it. So likewise, you cannot sin and NOT know it. If you know murder is a sin, you would definitely know that you murdered somebody. You cannot murder somebody and NOT know it. Point is, when an individual sins, they know it.

There's no such thing as unintentionally sinning. It involves your will and temptation:

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You cannot sin until you yield unto temptation (give in to the temptation).

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Sin is a wilfull transgression against a law of God.

1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (The law of Christ)

Those who are born of God (born again) cannot sin, but if they do, they are no more a child of God, but of the Devil:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 01:21 AM
Sorry, but this is wrong.

I will try and get back to this tomorrow.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Emphasis mine. He's asking a question)
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Ro 8:1-2, 6-8 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We can be freed fromt he law of sin and death (carnality) by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ jesus. Note the dichotomy that appears: "To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Just as we cannot be alive and dead at the same time, we cannot be carnally minded and spiritually minded at the same time.

Note that "to be carnally minded is death" and "the carnal mind is enmity against God:" This clearly contradicts the idea that the state of being "carnal, sold under sin..." discussed in Romans 7 continues after we do walk after the Spirit. We cannot have salvation and at the same time be spiritually dead and be in a state of enmity against God.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 01:46 AM
Ro 8:1-2, 6-8 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We can be freed fromt he law of sin and death (carnality) by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ jesus. Note the dichotomy that appears: "To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Just as we cannot be alive and dead at the same time, we cannot be carnally minded and spiritually minded at the same time.

Note that "to be carnally minded is death" and "the carnal mind is enmity against God:" This clearly contradicts the idea that the state of being "carnal, sold under sin..." discussed in Romans 7 continues after we do walk after the Spirit. We cannot have salvation and at the same time be spiritually dead and be in a state of enmity against God.

I believe you are mistaken in your understanding of the law of sin and death. You are set free from the law of sin and death, not from sin or death. That means you do not die when you sin. You are set free from that law, when you come under the new schoolmaster of the Spirit of God. Anyone who is not saved is carnally minded, and at enmity with God, because they are in the flesh, not the Spirit. If you sin, you do not fall back into enmity with God.

1Jo 2:1
(1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 02:22 AM
I believe you are mistaken in your understanding of the law of sin and death. You are set free from the law of sin and death, not from sin or death. That means you do not die when you sin. You are set free from that law, when you come under the new schoolmaster of the Spirit of God. Anyone who is not saved is carnally minded, and at enmity with God, because they are in the flesh, not the Spirit. If you sin, you do not fall back into enmity with God.

1Jo 2:1
(1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Really? God told Adam & Eve that they would surely die (die spiritually) if they disobeyed the commandment of the Lord.

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Devil deceived them into believing that they would not die (die spiritually). So sin produces spiritual death. It's pretty simple.

Joh 8:51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Those who keep the commandments of God (one of them is living without sin) will never see death (spiritual death).

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 02:34 AM
Really? God told Adam & Eve that they would surely die (die spiritually) if they disobeyed the commandment of the Lord.

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The Devil deceived them into believing that they would not die (die spiritually). So sin produces spiritual death. It's pretty simple.

Before Christ (we've been delivered from the law of sin and death)




Joh 8:51 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Would this be one of Jesus sayings?

Joh 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.




Those who keep the commandments of God (one of them is living without sin) will never see death (spiritual death).Joh 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

2Co 11:3
(3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 02:46 AM
Before Christ



Would this be one of Jesus sayings?

Joh 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.



Joh 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

2Co 11:3
(3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

From what I gather, you're promoting a doctrine of "all you have to do is believe." That isn't true at all:

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

You can believe all you want to but if you don't keep his commandments, you don't love God.

Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Christ obviously has some commandments for us to live by. You can call him Lord Lord all day long, but if you do not obey his commandments, you don't love him.

Joh 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

You must continue in his word (obey his commandments) in order to be a child of God. Only believing doesn't cut it with God.

The devils believe as well, but they aren't saved:

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

So this "believe only" doctrine isn't Biblical. If all we had to do is believe, there wouldn't be any commandments in the Bible for us to follow. Commandments such as "go and sin no more" comes to mind.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 02:48 AM
Before Christ (we've been delivered from the law of sin and death)



Being delivered (saved) from the law of sin and death means that you are free from committing sin. If you do not commit sin, then you therefore will not suffer the law of death (spiritual death, in which sin produces spiritual death)

Am I making myself clear? Or am I confusing you?:o

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 02:57 AM
So in order to be saved, all one must do is believe?

I think you are oversimplifying my answer. What was it like for you, faithfulfriend, when you went from unbelieving to believing?

For me, it was no simple flip of the switch as your question implies. "Just believe."

But the short answer is yes, what you must do in believe. (Ignoring the "all" part of your statement.) Part of the process for me was realizing that I had been believing some things that were not true, and not believing some things that were true.

Then I came to understand that believing something did not make it come true. (I was very young and idealistic at the time. I thought if I wished something hard enough, it would happen.) And I also found that not believing something did not make it go away.

From that time, I set my mind to seek truth. When I began to believe in Jesus, I stayed skeptical about what people were saying about Him, and I tested things a lot.

Becoming sin-free was also a process. Was this not true for you as well? Do you not still find sometimes that there is a bit of you that fails to be loving and compassionate in the face of persecution or offenses?

Are you truly free from commiting sin?

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 03:00 AM
Ac 16:30-34
30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,

you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
NKJV

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 03:16 AM
I think you are oversimplifying my answer. What was it like for you, faithfulfriend, when you went from unbelieving to believing?

Even before I was saved, I believed in God, I believed His Word, and I believed that God was real. I had a head knowledge of God, of His Word, and of his commandments, but my soul was void of Salvation. Thus I did not have a true change in my heart, a clean heart, a pure heart that the bible talks about receiving. Long story short, I knew I was a sinner and needed to repent. Repentance requires a confession and FORSAKING of sin. Forsaking sin means to leave it altogether to NEVER return to it again. After being saved, yes there are temptations, but God gives power to overcome them temptations. If I were to give into a temptation (God forbid), I would have to repent again (be re-saved) in order to be justified in the eyes of God. For example:

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Some may take these verses to mean that once we are justified (saved), we will be spared of the consequences of sin. We cannot look at only one scripture alone to understand the truth. Additional scriptures in the Bible give the fuller meaning of salvation. In the past, we were yet sinners. In the presence we are now justified by his blood. Now being justified by his blood, we are no longer sinners.

Romans 7 talks about evil be "present with me". That shows a man's natural state to live under sin (our inherited sin nature resulting from the sin of Adam). On our own, even if we TRY to do good, evil is present within us (before being saved) and it is IMPOSSIBLe to live completely free from sin.


For me, it was no simple flip of the switch as your question implies. "Just believe."

In order to be saved one must beleive that they can be saved, yes. And they must believe that God is "faithful and just" to forgive of sins. But after a true repentance (confessing & forsaking of sin) there is an instant change in the heart and mind. Remember in the Bible it talks about "all things are become new, all (old) things are passed away." That's talking about being saved! All the old sinful habits, desires, etc are GONE! You receive a new heart that is purified, that is pure and clean and holy.


But the short answer is yes, what you must do in believe. (Ignoring the "all" part of your statement.) Part of the process for me was realizing that I had been believing some things that were not true, and not believing some things that were true.

Yes you must believe (ie have faith), but in order to maintain and keep a relationship in God, we are required to "walk in the light" as he reveals truth to us. Therefore we must "continue in his Word" just as Christ said in the Bible. There are commandments to be obeyed, and we will be judged according to how we lived here on earth.


Then I came to understand that believing something did not make it come true. (I was very young and idealistic at the time. I thought if I wished something hard enough, it would happen.) And I also found that not believing something did not make it go away.

Truth never changes, whether souls believe it or not. God's Word never changes whether souls believe it or not. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore his commandments are the same in his Word. We must obey Him completely if we want to make Heaven our home.


From that time, I set my mind to seek truth. When I began to believe in Jesus, I stayed skeptical about what people were saying about Him, and I tested things a lot.

All honest hearts will be lead into "ALL" truth, just as the Bible says. All the truths of the doctrines of Christ.


Becoming sin-free was also a process. Was this not true for you as well? Do you not still find sometimes that there is a bit of you that fails to be loving and compassionate in the face of persecution or offenses?

Are you truly free from commiting sin?

Part of the problem here is that we have differing concepts of sin. My definition of sin comes from the bible, not a pastor or church, or peoples opinions. When a soul repents and is justified before God, all sins are forgiven. But there is still a seed of carnality in the heart that needs to be cleansed, this takes us to the doctrine of Sanctification. Without Sanctification, a soul will NOT stay saved unless the carnal nature is purged and completely removed from the heart. I have tons of studies and notes on Justification & Sanctification if your interested. I encourage you to get into the Bible and find out the real power of God and his grace for those who want to stop sinning completely.

Yes I'm truly free from committing sin, but again it's not because of ME. Sometimes there are those who assume I'm giving myself credit for my own righteousness and that's a lie. I give myself credit for NOTHING. It's CHRIST that gets all the praise honor and glory for what he has done to my heart, life, and mind. He has set me completely free from sin, his word PROMISES that we would do JUST THAT!!!

For example:

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This scripture is so simple. They who commit sin are of the devil, therefore Christ came (and died on the Cross) to destroy the works of the devil (sin). The works of the devil (sin) has been completely destroyed in my life! God has completely changed me, and I cannot put into words how great salvation really is. No language can explain the joy, peace, and happiness that comes from being set free from sin.

Does that all make sense? In a few days I'll be starting a thread on Holiness.....keep an eye out for it :-).

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 03:22 AM
Ac 16:30-34

30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,

you and your household." 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.
NKJV

Once again, the devils believe but they are not saved. So looking at ALL of the Bible in order to "try the spirits" and to "rightly divide the word of truth", we see that repentance is necessary to obtain salvation:

First of all, to be a Christian, to be a candidate for heaven, one must truly be “born again”. It is not an option for Jesus said, “…Ye must be born again,” (John 3:7). Other ways of expressing this life changing experience are “salvation,” “saved,” “justified,” “redeemed,” “converted,” “new creature,” etc. Any who profess to be a Christian without this spiritual birth, would only have an empty profession. Without being born again, without receiving this spiritual life, one remains dead (spiritually) in their sins. “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [made spiritually alive] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses,” (Colossians 2:13). So we see our sins are forgiven in this experience of being made spiritually alive or “born again”. The reason these Colossians were dead in sins is because all mankind (except Jesus Christ, who bypassed a human father) inherited a carnal nature from Adam. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned,” (Romans 5:12). Sin actually entered into the world through Eve, so for sin to enter into the world through Adam, it would have to be through his seed. This inherited, carnal nature led us all into committed sin, and we became guilty for our sins when we became old enough to know better. The apostle Paul said, “For I was alive without the law once; [innocent] but when the commandment came, [he became knowledgeable] sin revived, and I died,” (Romans 7:9). So sin caused spiritual death in Paul (Saul then) just like God warned Adam and Eve it would in them, in the day they sinned by disobeying, (see Genesis 3:3). Spiritual death is when the soul is separated from God. One can be alive physically while being dead spiritually. “But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth,” (I Timothy 5:6). If one dies physically while their soul is separated from God, this would be the “second death,” (Revelation 21:8) or eternal separation from God. Disobedience, or sin, is what separates one from God, (Isaiah 59:2) and this separation is termed (spiritual) death. “…the soul that sinneth, it shall die,” (Ezekiel 18:4). Friend, joining a church, doing good works, performing various rituals, or even getting water baptized, will not make one a Christian or a candidate for heaven. We must be made spiritually alive, (be born again) have our sins forgiven, or washed away; (not in mere water, but spiritually) in the blood of Jesus Christ, (see Revelation 1:5). This is not being extreme. This is a biblical requirement. Obtaining Bible salvation from sin, becoming a new creature by being born again is the only way to become a Christian.




HOW TO BE BORN AGAIN

“Who [God] will have all men to be saved, [born again] and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,” (I Timothy 2:4). So God desires that you and I be saved, and know the truth about this. Probably the first thing to clear up is the popular misconception of merely “accepting Christ”. We have to accept by faith His forgiveness based on His shed blood of course, but this term does not include, “…godly sorrow [that] worketh repentance to salvation,” (II Corinthians 7:10). Paul was dealing with a specific problem at Corinth, but the principle of godly sorrow and repentance applies to all. The issue or reason for us to be born again is our disobedience, our sins. Therefore to receive forgiveness for our sins, and be reconciled to God, we must be sorry enough for our acts of disobedience against God and His Word to be willing (with His help) to forsake those deeds. “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy,” (Proverbs 28:15). One reason the deceptive “nightly confession” is a fallacy, is it excludes godly sorrow and true repentance. “Repent ye, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out…,” (Acts 3:19). Repentance would include a willingness to make our wrongs right as much as possible, (Ezekiel 33:15) and an attitude of forgiveness toward any who may have wronged us, (Matthew 6:14-15). We are saved by grace through faith, (Ephesians 2:8) but justifying faith, or saving faith would include these conditions. Being born again, or reconciled to God, could be compared to a separation in a marriage because one spouse was unfaithful. To be reconciled, this unfaithfulness would have to be dealt with first. Any attempt by the guilty spouse to justify their actions or point out their commendable qualities would not be considered now. The issue, even if it was only once, is their unfaithfulness; this is the reason they are separated. The guilty one would have to acknowledge or confess their wrong doing, and have remorse over their unfaithfulness with a pledge of future faithfulness. Then, only after forgiveness was granted, could their relationship develop. If you were the offended spouse, could you accept, “oh how I love you,” if there was no remorse or resolve to quit being unfaithful? Are not these conditions for reconciliation in a marriage necessary and not extreme? God’s conditions for reconciliation, is likewise necessary and not extreme. Our unfaithfulness, (our sins) is the reason we are separated from God. We may have some good moral qualities others do not have, and may not be guilty of doing some of the things others do; but this is not the issue now. The issue is what we are guilty of. This is what we must acknowledge as the problem. God desires to have a relationship with us; but can not you see He must first require godly sorrow and repentance of our sins?

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 03:36 AM
So you have no arrogance in you? You are completely loving and compassionate and understanding of the rest of us who are apparently "of the devil"?

This makes it extremely difficult for me to relate to you.

I didn't say those who sin are of the devil, God's Word says that. The issue isn't what I say or my "opinions" but rather what the Word of God says. The word of God is what will judge us on judgement day. Remember the scripture "the books will be opened?" One of those books is the word of God, we can't afford to fall short on judgment day.

Arrogant? Why would I be arrogant? I'm not worth anything, and even with God in my life I still feel worthless. I don't know why he would save me, I certainly dont' deserve it. Nobody deserves the mercy and forgiveness that God gives.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am:

I am what I am, only by the grace of Almighty God.

Yes I understand completely where you are, because I used to be there myself. I wanted to change my life, I wanted to change my heart, and I wanted to stop sinning but I couldn't. It can't be done in my OWN power and strength. I'm trying to tell you (and others) in love that God's plan of Salvation so awesome and life-changing, that I can't put it into words. It's real.

Pr 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

I fear the Lord, therefore I hate arrogance, evil (sin), and pride. Pride goeth before destruction.....

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

I'm to have the mind of Christ. I don't believe Christ's mind was arrogant, do you?

Christ didn't sin, and I'm sure he was accused of being arrogant by people when he walked the Earth. Christ lived the example that we are to live and follow, yet he was persecuted, mocked, laughed at, and criticized for everything he did. Why is it that instead of people seeing that the power of God can truly save a soul from sin, usually all I'm told is "you're arrogant, proud, self-righteous etc etc" (I've been called a lot of disrespectful things. Not that it's discouraged me, I'm just trying to find honest souls who want a real change in their life, not a religious profession)

What is difficult about you relating to me? The issue of sin?

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 03:42 AM
...

What is difficult about you relating to me? The issue of sin?

That you claim to have no sin.


1 Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 03:53 AM
After being saved, yes there are temptations, but God gives power to overcome them temptations. If I were to give into a temptation (God forbid), I would have to repent again (be re-saved) in order to be justified in the eyes of God. For example:




What you have just said here is that if you sin, you loose your salvation, and if you then repent, you are saved again. That is self salvation.

(Gal 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Gal 2:17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

(Gal 2:18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

(Gal 2:19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

(Gal 2:20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 03:56 AM
That you claim to have no sin.


1 Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I knew this scripture would come up. It always does :D

Okay, a few things first. We have to understand WHO wrote the chapter, and who it is being written TO. You cannot take 2-3 verses in the Bible and build a complete doctrine on it that "everyone is a sinner."

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Obviously, John wrote I John 1. Now notice in the above text:

He stated that "ye also may have fellowship with us". John was writing unto those who were not yet saved (thus they were not in fellowship). John was writing this epistle unto the GNOSTICS. Please study the Gnostics, they were pretty evil people. They believed that you did not have to be forgiven of your sin because you had no sins to be forgiven of. Which is why John states "if we [you] say we have no sin [to be forgiven of], we deceive ourselves".

Make sense so far?

John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed “from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).
John said, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:
“. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” I Jn. 1:7.
“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” I Jn. 2:4.
“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins…Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . .” I Jn. 3:5-10.
The apostle’s message is clear and is in accordance with other New Testament writers.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 04:00 AM
What you have just said here is that if you sin, you loose your salvation, and if you then repent, you are saved again. That is self salvation.

(Gal 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Gal 2:17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

(Gal 2:18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

(Gal 2:19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

(Gal 2:20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

(Gal 2:21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


No, I think you misunderstood me. Righteousness comes by obedience to God's Word, after being justified (forgiven). What the Bible declares as sin, is sin. Therefore my knowledge of what sin is and isn't is applied to me through God's Word. If I go directly against God and disobey his law, I would then be a sinner.

If I were to sin (God Forbid) then I would need true godly sorrow, and a true confessing and forsaking of all in in order for Christ to apply the blood to cover my sins. That is not self-salvation, salvation is through Christ, not me. Maybe I'm not understanding your statement/question :hmm:

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 04:15 AM
No, I think you misunderstood me. Righteousness comes by obedience to God's Word, after being justified (forgiven).

Wrong, righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom 3:21-22
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 04:17 AM
Wrong, righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ.

Rom 3:21-22
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

It comes by that, absolutely. Yes we agree. But it is KEPT by obedience to God's Word and his commandments. Yes you must have faith, and you must always have faith. But we must live a life that is pleasing to Christ IN ADDITION TO having faith. It requires faith, with an obedient life.

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 04:21 AM
I knew this scripture would come up. It always does :D

Okay, a few things first. We have to understand WHO wrote the chapter, and who it is being written TO. You cannot take 2-3 verses in the Bible and build a complete doctrine on it that "everyone is a sinner."
...
. John was writing unto those who were not yet saved (thus they were not in fellowship). John was writing this epistle unto the GNOSTICS. Please study the Gnostics, they were pretty evil people. ...

Make sense so far?
.

No, it doesn't make sense at all.

Yes, this scripture always comes up, and thank God that it does. You are VERY WRONG in saying that it is written to gnostics. It is written to a new church which was being targeted by the gnostics or the pre-gnostics. The letter is written to warn them and allow them to protect themselves.

I don't know where you are getting your training, but you need to examine the source because something is amiss here.

Also, it is a bit arrogant of you to come in and think that we are all ignorant little children who do not know the word, but they you know everything and are going to teach us.

You seem to think we have never heard of the gnostics. We have.

We have read 1 John, and the rest of the Bible as well. We do not need to be told to "get into our Bibles" as if we have never opened the book.

I am finding your approach and your attitude a bit offensive.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 04:33 AM
No, it doesn't make sense at all.

Yes, this scripture always comes up, and thank God that it does. You are VERY WRONG in saying that it is written to gnostics. It is written to a new church which was being targeted by the gnostics or the pre-gnostics. The letter is written to warn them and allow them to protect themselves.

I don't know where you are getting your training, but you need to examine the source because something is amiss here.

Also, it is a bit arrogant of you to come in and think that we are all ignorant little children who do not know the word, but they you know everything and are going to teach us.

You seem to think we have never heard of the gnostics. We have.

We have read 1 John, and the rest of the Bible as well. We do not need to be told to "get into our Bibles" as if we have never opened the book.

I am finding your approach and your attitude a bit offensive.

I don't have an attitude against you or anyone else....so there's no reason to be offended. I've posted numerous scriptures thus far if there is an offense, it must be against God's Word, not me personally. I simply came to this forum (maybe a year or so ago) in order to try to find honest souls who want true deliverance from sin. I've yet to find one, but I trust that seeds have been planted and that those who want a true life changing experience of Salvation will be lead into the truth of God's Word.

I never said that you didn't know of the Gnostics, but I wanted to clear that up just in case you didn't. Not everyone on this forum has the same amount of knowledge, nor understanding. So my apologies for sounding rude, but I don't believe I was rude. The Gnostics are the ones being addressed here. Perhaps there were some at the new church who were being deceived by the doctrine that they had no guilt of sin, therefore they needed no repentance.

I John 1:8 was not written to the justified (the saved).

What exactly is offending you about what I've stated thus far? In my mind, talking about the Bible shouldn't offend anybody.

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 04:35 AM
...

I John 1:8 was not written to the justified (the saved).

What exactly is offending you about what I've stated thus far? In my mind, talking about the Bible shouldn't offend anybody.

Lying about the Bible is offensive.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 04:41 AM
Lying about the Bible is offensive.

I haven't lied about the Bible. Lying is sin. Why would I do such an awful thing?

Perhaps I had a typo? Or maybe you misunderstood one of my posts? I try to proof-read and grammar check before posting to make sure that I am very clear and concise about what I'm trying to say. That shouldn't offend anybody.

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 04:43 AM
I haven't lied about the Bible. Lying is sin. Why would I do such an awful thing?

Perhaps I had a typo? Or maybe you misunderstood one of my posts? I try to proof-read and grammar check before posting to make sure that I am very clear and concise about what I'm trying to say. That shouldn't offend anybody.

1 John was not written to gnostics. 1 John is written to new Christians.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 04:50 AM
1 John was not written to gnostics. 1 John is written to new Christians.

I John 1:8 was written to Cerinthus. A proto-gnostic who denied Christ.

This verse was not written to Christians. Christians don't commit sin. We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree and move on.

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 04:59 AM
I John 1:8 was written to Cerinthus. A proto-gnostic who denied Christ.

This verse was not written to Christians. Christians don't commit sin. We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree and move on.

This verse is key to the discussion. Do you take scissors to your Bible and cut out the parts that do not support your theses?

1 John is peppered with endearments. He calls the recipients "beloved", "little childlren" and "brethren". It is filled iwth love and reminders to them of their faith and how to hold on to their faith in a dark time.

Christians are human beings. We are none perfect. Everyone sins. There are degrees of sin, but there is no one except Jesus, who ever walked this earth without sinning.

You either have a different definition of sin from the rest of Christianity, or you have been deceived by your teachers.

The Bible is valid in its entirety, not just the bits and pieces that you want to quote in order to promote your private doctrine.

livingword26
Oct 24th 2008, 05:40 AM
I John 1:8 was written to Cerinthus. A proto-gnostic who denied Christ.

This verse was not written to Christians. Christians don't commit sin. We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree and move on.

You cannot move on from here. Your message is legalistic and void of grace. You call those who would follow Jesus Christ, children of the devil if they are not sin free. You do not preach the gospel, you preach condemnation to all who struggle.

Luk 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Firstfruits
Oct 24th 2008, 07:43 AM
And what about any sin you cannot recall?
What about sin, you did not know was sin?

Obviously you cannot confess those sins can you?

Question:
Is it a sin to go against or pray against God's will?

In the following did Jesus specify which sins were to be forgiven?

Mt 6:12 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=6&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Mt 9:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=9&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Jesus does not pick and choose which sin he will forgive, he would not leave you half whole.

I hope that helps.

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 08:18 AM
Why do you think Christ Jesus forgave their sins and told them not to sin no more?

Because sin is not only an offence that needs to be forgiven but a pollution that needs to be cleansed out of our lives - Jesus doesn't want us to remain wallowing in the mire!


Jn 5:14 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

I accept this is a very severe warning - but I don't believe that we are "in and out" of a right standing with God the way you are portraying things. If we sin, there IS provision for forgiveness - and we WILL sin - yet in a decreasing way and no longer as a general principle, if we are truly born of God


Jn 8:11 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=8&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin No more.

Amen!


The instruction not to sin has not changed.

With you 100% on that.


1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

That's the thing, though - it's JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS - not us! I think you have a misunderstanding of what it means to be counted righteous in Christ - His righteousness IMPUTED to us is our hope - not whatever state of IMPARTED righteousness we may have attained to through our Christian walk, although that is clearly an indispensible aspect of Christian discipleship.

Firstfruits
Oct 24th 2008, 08:49 AM
Because sin is not only an offence that needs to be forgiven but a pollution that needs to be cleansed out of our lives - Jesus doesn't want us to remain wallowing in the mire!

[/color][/size]

I accept this is a very severe warning - but I don't believe that we are "in and out" of a right standing with God the way you are portraying things. If we sin, there IS provision for forgiveness - and we WILL sin - yet in a decreasing way and no longer as a general principle, if we are truly born of God

[/color]

Amen!



With you 100% on that.



That's the thing, though - it's JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS - not us! I think you have a misunderstanding of what it means to be counted righteous in Christ - His righteousness IMPUTED to us is our hope - not whatever state of IMPARTED righteousness we may have attained to through our Christian walk, although that is clearly an indispensible aspect of Christian discipleship.

When we sin it does not matter wether or not we are christians there is only one way that we can be forgiven it is the same for all men.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

And if any man sin, means just that "ANY MAN" Whoever sins.

Gal 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

There is only one way for all.

Whenever we sin we are wallowing in the mire as there is no unrighteousness in God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 09:50 AM
Because the tone of the thread is focussing on sinless perfection, the thread has been moved to Contro.

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 09:52 AM
When we sin it does not matter wether or not we are christians there is only one way that we can be forgiven it is the same for all men.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

And if any man sin, means just that "ANY MAN" Whoever sins.

Gal 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

There is only one way for all.

Whenever we sin we are wallowing in the mire as there is no unrighteousness in God.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

So are you agreeing with me? If not, where do we disagree?

Firstfruits
Oct 24th 2008, 10:50 AM
So are you agreeing with me? If not, where do we disagree?

I believe we are in agreement.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

FaithfulSheep
Oct 24th 2008, 11:01 AM
I John 1:8 was written to Cerinthus. A proto-gnostic who denied Christ.

This verse was not written to Christians. Christians don't commit sin. We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Back this up with scripture please. Where in the Bible does it tell us that Christians are sinless. There is only One who is without sin and it is neither you nor I nor anyone else alive today. It is Jesus.

Fenris
Oct 24th 2008, 11:32 AM
How come no one's posting verses about forgiveness of sin from the OT?

For example:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams...


Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the Lord thy G-d; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and return unto the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and accept that which is good: so will we render [as] bullocks [the offering of] our lips.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight. [9] The way of the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Micah 7:18 Who is a G-d like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. [19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. [20] Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed G-d, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. [6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. [7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: [8] But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto G-d: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. [9] Who can tell if G-d will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [10] And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 11:34 AM
I believe we are in agreement.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Praise God for that! :pp

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 11:36 AM
How come no one's posting verses about forgiveness of sin from the OT?

For example:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams...


Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the Lord thy G-d; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and return unto the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and accept that which is good: so will we render [as] bullocks [the offering of] our lips.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight. [9] The way of the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Micah 7:18 Who is a G-d like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. [19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. [20] Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed G-d, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. [6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. [7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: [8] But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto G-d: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. [9] Who can tell if G-d will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [10] And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Good point, Fenris - great Scriptures!

Fenris
Oct 24th 2008, 11:37 AM
Good point, Fenris - great Scriptures!Thank you! Equally pertinent.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 12:12 PM
Back this up with scripture please. Where in the Bible does it tell us that Christians are sinless. There is only One who is without sin and it is neither you nor I nor anyone else alive today. It is Jesus.

There are numerous scriptures....but the issues isn't whether or not I can back this up with scripture, the issue is will it be accepted as truth? Christ died on the cross so we could live like Him.

Before reading the scriptures below, keep in mind that:

Righteousness means sinless
Unrighteousness means sin

All men are sinners before conversion:

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Ki 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

1Jo 1:8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Therefore, Christ came to save from sin:

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

Zec 13:1 ¶ In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Christians are saved FROM sin:

Jesus taught it:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Peter taught it:

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Paul taught it:

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

John taught it:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Those who commit sin are not Christians:

They are servants of sin:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

"Were" is past tense!!!!!!

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

They have not the Spirit:

Jude 1:15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

They are in wickedness:

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

They do not know God:

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

We are to know the children of God by their sinless lives:

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Firstfruits
Oct 24th 2008, 01:09 PM
There are numerous scriptures....but the issues isn't whether or not I can back this up with scripture, the issue is will it be accepted as truth? Christ died on the cross so we could live like Him.

Before reading the scriptures below, keep in mind that:

Righteousness means sinless
Unrighteousness means sin

All men are sinners before conversion:

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Ki 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

1Jo 1:8 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Therefore, Christ came to save from sin:

Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

Zec 13:1 ¶ In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Christians are saved FROM sin:

Jesus taught it:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Peter taught it:

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Paul taught it:

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

John taught it:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Those who commit sin are not Christians:

They are servants of sin:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

"Were" is past tense!!!!!!

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

They have not the Spirit:

Jude 1:15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

They are in wickedness:

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

They do not know God:

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

We are to know the children of God by their sinless lives:

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It is understood that we are to live without sin, but we are also told what to do if we should sin, in the following scripture.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 Jn 2:2 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 01:55 PM
Good point, Firstfruits. faithfulfriend - are you aware of the continuous present tense in Greek and that John uses it frequently in his first letter? It does not come over in the KJV in eg 1 Jn 3:9 but the original could be translated "makes a practice of sinning" or "keeps on sinning" - it ties in with eg 1 Jn 2:2 and 1 Jn 1:7-9 when we see it this way.

I commend your emphasis on holiness, which is what many (if not most) of the folks here are all about - but God's word does NOT promise absolute freedom from sin until we are in glory. That is the consummation of salvation.

threebigrocks
Oct 24th 2008, 02:06 PM
I'm thinking that sin is not really where we are going to find common ground here and an understanding.

Honestly, where the discussion had led we need to look at faith.

Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2For by it the men of old gained approval.
3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.


What is it we hope for, by faith? What is the assurance of that hope?

We cannot boast that because we follow Christ we are sinless. We are covered by Christ, but still have faith in something yet to come. So, what is that hope? What is so important to hold onto the hope to come, through faith?

Firstfruits
Oct 24th 2008, 02:54 PM
I'm thinking that sin is not really where we are going to find common ground here and an understanding.

Honestly, where the discussion had led we need to look at faith.

Hebrews 11


What is it we hope for, by faith? What is the assurance of that hope?

We cannot boast that because we follow Christ we are sinless. We are covered by Christ, but still have faith in something yet to come. So, what is that hope? What is so important to hold onto the hope to come, through faith?

The following tells us the benefits and pitfalls if we either have faith or we do not.

Jn 3:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:18 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jn 3:36 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=43&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If we have faith we are not condemned

If we have faith we have the promise of eternal life

If we have faith the wrath of God will not come upon us.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 05:05 PM
How come no one's posting verses about forgiveness of sin from the OT?

For example:

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams...


Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the Lord thy G-d; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. [2] Take with you words, and return unto the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and accept that which is good: so will we render [as] bullocks [the offering of] our lips.

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of G-d [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 69:30 I will praise the name of G-d with a song, and will magnify him with thanksgiving. [31] [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bullock that hath horns and hoofs.

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] His delight. [9] The way of the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Micah 7:18 Who is a G-d like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. [19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. [20] Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

Jonah 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed G-d, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. [6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. [7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: [8] But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto G-d: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. [9] Who can tell if G-d will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? [10] And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; [14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Thank you Fenris. These are worth repeating. :hug:

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 05:22 PM
From The Complete Jewish Bible

(A footnote in my Bible states: "This prayer can serve as a pattern to the Christian when he is guilty of sin in his life today.")

Psalm 51


1(0) For the leader. A psalm of David,
2 when Natan the prophet came to him after his affair with Bat-Sheva:

3(1) God, in your grace, have mercy on me;in your great compassion, blot out my crimes. 4(2) Wash me completely from my guilt, and cleanse me from my sin. 5(3) For I know my crimes, my sin confronts me all the time.
6(4) Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil from your perspective; so that you are right in accusing me and justified in passing sentence.

7(5) True, I was born guilty, was a sinner from the moment my mother conceived me. 8(6) Still, you want truth in the inner person; so make me know wisdom in my inmost heart.

9(7) Sprinkle me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 10(8) Let me hear the sound of joy and gladness, so that the bones you crushed can rejoice. 11(9) Turn away your face from my sins, and blot out all my crimes.

12(10) Create in me a clean heart, God; renew in me a resolute spirit. 13(11) Don’t thrust me away from your presence, don’t take your Ruach Kodesh away from me. 14(12) Restore my joy in your salvation, and let a willing spirit uphold me. 15(13) Then I will teach the wicked your ways, and sinners will return to you.

16(14) Rescue me from the guilt of shedding blood, God, God of my salvation! Then my tongue will sing about your righteousness — 17(15) Adonai, open my lips; then my mouth will praise you.

18(16) For you don’t want sacrifices, or I would give them; you don’t take pleasure in burnt offerings. 19(17) My sacrifice to God is a broken spirit; God, you won’t spurn a broken, chastened heart. 20(18) In your good pleasure, make Tziyon prosper; rebuild the walls of Yerushalayim. 21

(19) Then you will delight in righteous sacrifices, in burnt offerings and whole burnt offerings; then they will offer bulls on your altar.

CJB

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2008, 07:58 PM
Ro 8:1-2, 6-8 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

We can be freed fromt he law of sin and death (carnality) by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ jesus. Note the dichotomy that appears: "To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Just as we cannot be alive and dead at the same time, we cannot be carnally minded and spiritually minded at the same time.

Note that "to be carnally minded is death" and "the carnal mind is enmity against God:" This clearly contradicts the idea that the state of being "carnal, sold under sin..." discussed in Romans 7 continues after we do walk after the Spirit. We cannot have salvation and at the same time be spiritually dead and be in a state of enmity against God.

Note that you have changed the topic.
We were not taking of the way of deliverence, from the law of sin and death.

You made this statement:
"Sin always has been, and always will be deliberate. There is no such thing as "accidental" sin or sinning "unknowingly".

You reply elsewhere regarding 'Leviticus' (sin of ignorance) with:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed [charged to the account] when there is no law.

It does not say that there was no sin, but that it was not imputed when there is no law.

Now here in Romans 7, Paul shows that his 'mind' was set to do what is good, and avoid doing what is wrong. He also says that his 'will' was also set on doing the good, and avoiding doing the wrong.

Paul shows very clearly, a born again by the Spirit Christian, who's 'mind' and 'will', are walking after the Spirit [Please note; that though he himself is carnal, that this is not a carnal mind or will]

He discovers 'another law' [the carnal sin nature], and this law [the law warring against the law of his mind] is stronger then his mind and will.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is showing sin that is not wilful sin. He is right here serving the law of God with his mind, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I also believe that this [1John 5] is the same sin that does not lead to death
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

If we see a brother struggling to overcome the law of sin, we ought to be with him in prayer, and God will give him life (the law of the Spirit of life)

Yes there is a way of victory over the law of sin, but even before that way of victory is gained, Paul very clearly says:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

'Therefore' meaning with the above mentioned (walking after the Spirit) therefore there is 'now' no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.
Even if the Christian has not yet gained victory over the law of sin, there is now no condemnation.

If there is an absence of hate, towards doing the things you do (that you ought not do) then my understanding is that this is sin that can lead to death (not utter destruction)
John does not say 'do not pray about this', he says "I do not say that one should pray for that"
I think he leaves that open for us to pray or not.
We surely cannot be asking God to give life, to sin that leads to death, but we can pray that God would help convince that brother.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2008, 08:23 PM
Yes I'm truly free from committing sin, but again it's not because of ME. Sometimes there are those who assume I'm giving myself credit for my own righteousness and that's a lie. I give myself credit for NOTHING. It's CHRIST that gets all the praise honor and glory for what he has done to my heart, life, and mind. He has set me completely free from sin, his word PROMISES that we would do JUST THAT!!!

For example:

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This scripture is so simple. They who commit sin are of the devil, therefore Christ came (and died on the Cross) to destroy the works of the devil (sin). The works of the devil (sin) has been completely destroyed in my life! God has completely changed me, and I cannot put into words how great salvation really is. No language can explain the joy, peace, and happiness that comes from being set free from sin.

Does that all make sense? In a few days I'll be starting a thread on Holiness.....keep an eye out for it :-).

Can I ask:

When you pray daily for your daily bread, do you omit "and forgive us our trespasses"?

Do you find that you have no longer, any need for the blood of Christ, to cleans your heart conscience?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 24th 2008, 09:29 PM
I John 1:8 was written to Cerinthus. A proto-gnostic who denied Christ.

This verse was not written to Christians. Christians don't commit sin. We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree and move on.

This is so very untrue.
John refused to remain under the same roof with the man who had denied the divinity of Jesus.

John may have writen something about Cerinthus, but it was most certainly not to him.

Possibly about Cerinthus:
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Was John telling Cerinthus that he had an unction from the Holy One, and that he knew all things?

1Jn 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 09:42 PM
Good point, Firstfruits. faithfulfriend - are you aware of the continuous present tense in Greek and that John uses it frequently in his first letter? It does not come over in the KJV in eg 1 Jn 3:9 but the original could be translated "makes a practice of sinning" or "keeps on sinning" - it ties in with eg 1 Jn 2:2 and 1 Jn 1:7-9 when we see it this way.

Technically you are correct yes. Certainly the one who habitually sins is of the devil, that is true as far as that goes. The Greek present tense also has the significance of a process as well as repeated action. Hence the full translation of this text would have to read, He who is in the process of sinning or who habitually sins is of the devil.


I commend your emphasis on holiness, which is what many (if not most) of the folks here are all about - but God's word does NOT promise absolute freedom from sin until we are in glory. That is the consummation of salvation.

Holiness is a promise unto the living here on earth, not in the eternal life. Titus 2:11 says "in this present world", that means this world we are living in now.

faithfulfriend
Oct 24th 2008, 09:54 PM
Can I ask:

When you pray daily for your daily bread, do you omit "and forgive us our trespasses"?

Do you find that you have no longer, any need for the blood of Christ, to cleans your heart conscience?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Being cleansed from all sin....God does a perfect work. Therefore if ALL sin is cleansed, there isn't any sin left over that Christ did not remove & forgive.

As long as I follow God and ask him for grace, help, and strength, he will give me the power I need in order to stay saved (live a sinless life).

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Right there in the Word of God it says the JUST (saved) need no repentance. Why is that? Well obviously if one has NOT commited sin, there is no NEED to ask for forgiveness.

Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

It is so clear in the word of God that the RIGHTEOUS are not called to repentance. Read Matthew 9:13 over and over again until you understand that point. The RIGHTEOUS are not called to repentance, but SINNERS are called to repentance. This scripture shows a clear dichotomy in the fact that the RIGHTEOUS and SINNERS cannot be the same. You are either a sinner, or you are either righteous. You cannot be both at the same time.

Before we have a misunderstanding, "all have sinned" is very true. If nobody had sinned before, we would have no need of repenting and being justified before God. But AFTER a soul is justified, they must remain justifed by living according to the word of God. Thus after repentance, a soul is to live sinless in order to stay justified (saved) before God. Sin separates man from God. Christ's blood delivers you from the power and bondage of sin, thus allowing the individual to live completely sin-free. That my friend is the power of Almighty God. Don't you believe God can do anything for you? Who has more power, God or the Devil? Who is the master of sin, God or the Devil? God has more power, and he came to "destroy the works of the devil (sin)" in peoples lives. It can be done for you just as it has been done for me.

God forbid, but let's just say next Saturday I for whatever reason committed a sin (sin is a wilful transgression against the known law of God). If I was truly sorry for what I had done (godly sorrow), then I would have to repent, turn from sin completely in order to be justified (saved) before God. Of course it takes faith. The whole point of Christ's blood was to save us FROM sin and being in a sinful condition. Christ didn't come to keep us in sin and a sinful condition.

Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

We are NOT to lay again the foundation of repentance, thus we are to stay justified (saved) before God all the days of our life. And we are to go on to perfection (spiritual perfection) which is called Sanctification. Sanctification is for those who are alive on earth today, it is not something that is obtained in eternity.

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 10:24 PM
Technically you are correct yes. Certainly the one who habitually sins is of the devil, that is true as far as that goes. The Greek present tense also has the significance of a process as well as repeated action. Hence the full translation of this text would have to read, He who is in the process of sinning or who habitually sins is of the devil.

Agreed - so it doesn't apply to Christians, who sin occasionally (as is assumed in 1:7-9 and 2:1-2).


Holiness is a promise unto the living here on earth, not in the eternal life. Titus 2:11 says "in this present world", that means this world we are living in now.

But we are to "pursue" holiness (Heb 12:14) (because we don't have it all) and to "perfect" it (2 Cor 7:1) (because it's always going to be imperfect - Paul said he had not yet attained perfection in Phil 312 - are you saying he was deficient and you aren't?!?).

Firstfruits
Oct 25th 2008, 10:44 AM
Technically you are correct yes. Certainly the one who habitually sins is of the devil, that is true as far as that goes. The Greek present tense also has the significance of a process as well as repeated action. Hence the full translation of this text would have to read, He who is in the process of sinning or who habitually sins is of the devil.



Holiness is a promise unto the living here on earth, not in the eternal life. Titus 2:11 says "in this present world", that means this world we are living in now.

What is the outcome for one that sins occasionally and one that sins continually?

Rom 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Gal 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 27th 2008, 10:27 AM
What is the outcome for one that sins occasionally and one that sins continually?

Rom 3:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=45&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

This isn't speaking of occasional or habitual sin - if you are saying that we cannot be saved unless we are sinless, then that is not only a gosple of despair but a flat contradiction of the NT message and of the reality of every Christian's experience - the ONLY person who has ever been sinless is Jesus Christ - and the gospel is that it is only when we are joined to HIM in his death and resurrection that we are saved - what you are advocating is that we must be sinless before we are saved - which is impossible and is salvation by works (perfect holiness).


Gal 3:22 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=48&CHAP=3&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Yes - and the one who believes is justified and freed from the law of sin and death!


1 Jn 5:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=5&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

God bless you!

Firstfruits

Are you saying that Christians never sin?

Firstfruits
Oct 27th 2008, 03:28 PM
This isn't speaking of occasional or habitual sin - if you are saying that we cannot be saved unless we are sinless, then that is not only a gosple of despair but a flat contradiction of the NT message and of the reality of every Christian's experience - the ONLY person who has ever been sinless is Jesus Christ - and the gospel is that it is only when we are joined to HIM in his death and resurrection that we are saved - what you are advocating is that we must be sinless before we are saved - which is impossible and is salvation by works (perfect holiness).



Yes - and the one who believes is justified and freed from the law of sin and death!



Are you saying that Christians never sin?

I am just asking the question;

What is the outcome for one that sins occasionally and one that sins continually?

It would be against scripture to say that Christians will never sin.

We are as you know taught that we should not sin.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

So is their sin and outcome different knowing that they both have only one way for forgivness?

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 12:26 AM
I am just asking the question;

What is the outcome for one that sins occasionally and one that sins continually?

It would be against scripture to say that Christians will never sin.

We are as you know taught that we should not sin.

1 Jn 2:1 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=62&CHAP=2&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

So is their sin and outcome different knowing that they both have only one way for forgivness?

God bless you!!

Firstfruits

Someone who sins habitually is still in darkness and loves their sin - they are unforgiven. Someone who has come to the light will hate their sin and struggle to put it to death - while victorious at times, there will also be times of defeat - but the difference is that the blood of Christ covers the belkiever's sins - but not the unbelievers. The believer will confess their sins readily and seek (and receive) forgiveness through the blood of Christ - the unbeliever will not.

Firstfruits
Oct 28th 2008, 02:08 PM
Someone who sins habitually is still in darkness and loves their sin - they are unforgiven. Someone who has come to the light will hate their sin and struggle to put it to death - while victorious at times, there will also be times of defeat - but the difference is that the blood of Christ covers the belkiever's sins - but not the unbelievers. The believer will confess their sins readily and seek (and receive) forgiveness through the blood of Christ - the unbeliever will not.

Are you saying that both have to confess their sins in order to be forgiven?

What happens if they both do not confess their sins?

Firstfruits

Firstfruits
Oct 30th 2008, 02:43 PM
Mt 18:15 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Mt 18:16 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mt 18:17 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

For the brother or sister that has sinned, if there is no repentance there is no forgiveness.

The following speaks of a member of the body of the church that has sinned/offended.

Mt 18:6 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mt 18:8 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=8) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Mt 18:9 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=40&CHAP=18&SEARCH=jesus king lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=9) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

God bless!!

Firstfruits

markdrums
Oct 30th 2008, 07:48 PM
This may be an easy question, but I've heard from time-to-time pastors say (when someone is saved) "...your sins are forgiven, past, present and future..." Can anyone point me to some scriptures that support that? God bless.


The best I can add to this would be Jesus' words on the cross:
"It is FINISHED"

His work was finished..... The plan of redemption; payment in full for our sins, once & for all.

;)

Firstfruits
Oct 30th 2008, 08:07 PM
The best I can add to this would be Jesus' words on the cross:
"It is FINISHED"

His work was finished..... The plan of redemption; payment in full for our sins, once & for all.

;)

The plan of redemption is truly "Finished" but how do we obtain our redemption according to Gods plan?

Firstfruits