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LookingUp
Oct 22nd 2008, 09:46 PM
I'm wondering if any of you could read the below and give me your input? I'm trying to communicate what the Lake of Fire is, what the Second Death is & why it's called the Second Death, who is placed there, and when this judgment takes place. Thanks for your help.

Hades

Capernaum will descend to Hades (Mt. 11:23; Lu 10:15).

The gates of Hades will not overpower the Church (Mt. 16:18).

After the rich man died, he was taken to Hades where he was in torment (Lu 16:23).

The soul of the Lord was not abandoned to Hades (Act 2:27).

The Lord has the keys of death and Hades (Rev. 1:18).

The sea, death, and Hades will give up the dead which are in them; and they will be judged according to their deeds (Rev. 20:13).

Death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14)

Lake of Fire

The beast and the false prophet, who deceives those who will receive the mark of the beast and worship his image during the end times, will be thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone (Rev. 19:20).

The devil, who deceives the world, will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. The beast, the false prophet, and the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10).

Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14).

Anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15).

The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will have their part in the lake of fire that burns with brimstone, which is the second death (Rev. 21:8).

Second Death

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:11).

The second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

From my understanding of Scripture, Hades is an actual place where torment can occur. One day, Hades will give up those who are in it to stand in judgment before the Lord (Rev. 20:11-13). Many call this the Great White Throne Judgment due to verse 11. Then, both death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 21:14). Additionally, anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Those who have practiced sins such as unbelief, murder, immorality, sorcery, idolatry, lying, etc. will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death (Rev. 20:14).

Why is it called the “second death”? My guess is that one dies physically once and some will also die in the Lake of Fire a second time. Since all are resurrected to life once again, those who endure the Lake of Fire die again and experience a second death.

“An hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth; those who did good to a resurrection of life, those who committed evil to a resurrection of judgment” (John 5:29)

“…having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked” (Acts 24:15).

My understanding is that some come to life just before the Millennial reign of Christ Jesus, and others come to life just after the Millennial reign…

“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed” (Rev. 20:5).

Gentle Soul
Oct 22nd 2008, 11:09 PM
That has me a bit perplexed as well. Revelations is a very difficult book to learn from, it's too easy to go off into tangents and misinterpret what is written.

So, we have the first death, that of our flesh, wouldn't you think the second would be the death of the soul as well? But if that's the case, a non existant soul would not experience anything at all in the lake of fire, for it has ceased to exist, yet clearly it does. I guess it would be death in the sense of being permanently seperated from God and being devoid of any knowledge of him in the process, essentially dying to all realities in a sense. Someone else should chime in on this one, it has me intrigued.

jeffweeder
Oct 22nd 2008, 11:12 PM
I'm trying to communicate what the Lake of Fire is, what the Second Death is & why it's called the Second Death, who is placed there, and when this judgment takes place. Thanks for your help.

He who believes the gospel will not be hurt by the second death
blessed are all those who take part in the first ressurection.

Those who dont believe in him will suffer for their sins at the judgement, which is the second death, when he come again.
The second death is eternal seperation from God


For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:21 AM
I'm wondering if any of you could read the below and give me your input? I'm trying to communicate what the Lake of Fire is, what the Second Death is & why it's called the Second Death, who is placed there, and when this judgment takes place. Thanks for your help.
...

Why is it called the “second death”? My guess is that one dies physically once and some will also die in the Lake of Fire a second time. Since all are resurrected to life once again, those who endure the Lake of Fire die again and experience a second death.
...

My understanding is that some come to life just before the Millennial reign of Christ Jesus, and others come to life just after the Millennial reign…

“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed” (Rev. 20:5).
Hi LookingUp, :)
I think the lake of fire is just plain total destruction - no more - kaput! ;)
Why?
Because death and hell are also cast into the lake - as there will no longer be a use for them.
'Just my humble opinion.

I came to the same conclusion about "the rest of the dead" including Christians who were not martyed by the AC or those who survived until the resurrection/rapture.

Also:
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

Also:
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

This is when the Book of Life is opened. One could safely presume that the names of the martrys are already in there.

I know of one other person on this board who also thinks this, but I'm not tellin' :rolleyes:

Richard

Gentle Soul
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:19 AM
Jeff, that makes alot of sense, thank you. :)

Richard, you have a good point, I guess there is a misconstruded perspective:

The devil, who deceives the world, will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. The beast, the false prophet, and the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10).

It only mentions those few, not all of the wicked to be tormented forever with that section, which if the latter was stated including all that were cast down into it as being tormented forever, you would have to conclude they continued to exist on some level regardless so I can see where you are coming from with the wicked souls being non existent in the end.

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:51 AM
Jeff, that makes alot of sense, thank you. :)

Richard, you have a good point, I guess there is a misconstruded perspective:

The devil, who deceives the world, will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. The beast, the false prophet, and the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10).

It only mentions those few, not all of the wicked to be tormented forever with that section, which if the latter was stated including all that were cast down into it as being tormented forever, you would have to conclude they continued to exist on some level regardless so I can see where you are coming from with the wicked souls being non existent in the end.Hi Gentle Soul,
Rev 20:10 does say those you named will be tormented forever.

Rev 14:11 says of those who receive the mark - the SMOKE of their torment rises forever, but that could just be after they're burned up.
God's spiritual universe is a big place.

I just don't see how death and hell can be cast in there too and not have it be total distruction. :hmm:
I suppose we won't really know until we can ask the Lord, Himself.

In any case, Jeff's right: it will be eternal separation from God.

Richard

Gentle Soul
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:28 AM
My question is though, what is the point of bothering to waste time to torture these souls forever, outside of it being a deturrent for us living today to heed from.

I guess justice to some degree could be served within some lengthy period of time torturing them, but it seems like a total waste of energy to bother, why not just make them cease to exist and move on with things, just as you believe.

I also can't help but wonder how terrible it must be for the Lord to have to deal with these individuals, having offered him of himself full and complete love, only to be utterly rejected. That must be painful for him, don't you think? Then to have to serve justice casting them down, and finally writing them off. Can you imagine a rebellious child that refused to listen to you, being forced to send them away forever. You still love them and the pain you experience would be unbearable. I don't think it's fair to him at all, he deserves only the absolute best from us at all times.

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:56 AM
There is however, torment in hell for unbelievers - before judgement.
I suppose without the Holy Spirit, they just automatically go there.

Until the time to stand before the throne, there'll be no rest from the torment, so in that sense it is never-ending suffering there.

I agree, it does break God's heart, that there is unbelief and those who have not really understood.
Grace is extended to all, and we need to let them know about His love and mercy.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

and of course:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
John 3:16-21

Gentle Soul
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:09 AM
Thanks Richard, you are a really good apple!!! :)

I put what you quoted within my signature:

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


Unfortunately, it takes 30n days being here for that feature to take effect. (: I completely understand why that policy is in place so I'll simply be patient about it.

jeffweeder
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:15 AM
I just don't see how death and hell can be cast in there too and not have it be total distruction.

Death and hades are cast into hell, its the realm of the dead, death itself is destroyed.
and the last enemy to be destroyed is death, even the wicked dead get out of death, and are thrown alive into the lake....I shudder at the thought of being eternally seperated from God...they weep and gnash their teeth because he is Holy-righteous.
He offers freely the living water and we must drink to overflowing, recieving the Holy Spirit ministry of sanctification every day till Christ is formed in us.

You imagine this time coming to life-which it will, and everyone is standing before the throne of God--Every eye will see him, some will beat their breasts, cry in anguish, gnash their teeth, others will crying tears of relief ,as the lord Jesus has your name in the greatest book ever written.
May the Lord Jesus Christ recieve our very best and may he be praised forever , for creating the redeemed people of the most high.

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:27 AM
Death and hades are cast into hell, its the realm of the dead, death itself is destroyed.
and the last enemy to be destroyed is death, even the wicked dead get out of death, and are thrown alive into the lake....I shudder at the thought of being eternally seperated from God...they weep and gnash their teeth because he is Holy-righteous.
He offers freely the living water and we must drink to overflowing, recieving the Holy Spirit ministry of sanctification every day till Christ is formed in us.

You imagine this time coming to life-which it will, and everyone is standing before the throne of God--Every eye will see him, some will beat their breasts, cry in anguish, gnash their teeth, others will crying tears of relief ,as the lord Jesus has your name in the greatest book ever written.
May the Lord Jesus Christ recieve our very best and may he be praised forever , for creating the redeemed people of the most high.
Now that you put it like THAT... I get it. :eek: YIKES!!! :eek:

jeffweeder
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:50 AM
Now that you put it like THAT... I get it. YIKES!!!

Looks like an awesome day, when we will witness the seperation of the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares, everyone placed into his final place. It would appear to be the most saddest moment in the history of the world, to witness this planet and all the wonderful beings on it ,coming to a complete end. Good news is that God wipes away those tears, and introduces you into a world that surpass your greatest dream.
Jesus has prepared this place for us, and he is about to recieve us, as he is coming soon.....we have never been this close

divaD
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:57 AM
The second death is eternal seperation from God




I agree, because if one is forever dead, one would be eternally seperated from God forever. But somehow, I don't feel this was exactly what you had in mind.

If not, could you show with Scriptures where death means something else rather than death, such as something that is dead but actually still alive?

The question is, what is it, if anything, that dies in the 2nd death? Something has to die, or it wouldn't be called the 2nd death. That conclusion appears logical to me. So, what is it that dies? If one is simply seperated from God for eternity, yet still alive and being tormented, then what was it that died the 2nd death?

I'm not trying to be difficult here. Just trying to be logical. :)

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:28 AM
One thing's for certain.
God is good and He knows what He's doing... even if we sometimes have poor sight of it.

If it wasn't for His grace extended to us through Jesus, we all deserve whatever He has deemed appropriate.

Yeshua is our mediator and I sort of think of Him as standing between myself and the great and holy YHWH - otherwise I could not bear it.
When the Father looks toward me, He sees His righteous Son, Jesus.

Richard

jeffweeder
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:45 AM
I would say that the second death is a result of the judgement, at the ressurection of all the dead. It appears that the second death is only realised when the actual ressurection of the dead has happened.
People rise from the dead and then the judgement as the books were opened.

Jn 5

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



Blessed are the true gospel believers for the second death wont hurt them.

legoman
Oct 23rd 2008, 12:26 PM
I agree, because if one is forever dead, one would be eternally seperated from God forever. But somehow, I don't feel this was exactly what you had in mind.

If not, could you show with Scriptures where death means something else rather than death, such as something that is dead but actually still alive?

The question is, what is it, if anything, that dies in the 2nd death? Something has to die, or it wouldn't be called the 2nd death. That conclusion appears logical to me. So, what is it that dies? If one is simply seperated from God for eternity, yet still alive and being tormented, then what was it that died the 2nd death?

I'm not trying to be difficult here. Just trying to be logical. :)

Hi divaD,

I believe 'death' can also refer to the dying of the carnal self. As in, when we come to Christ, we must die to ourselves (our carnal mind must die) so that we can be reborn/remade in the spiritual. First comes the natural, then the spiritual,... etc.

Sorry don't have a verse handy as I'm in a rush, I can try to find one later if you want.

Cheers,
Legoman

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 01:44 PM
Hi divaD,

I believe 'death' can also refer to the dying of the carnal self. As in, when we come to Christ, we must die to ourselves (our carnal mind must die) so that we can be reborn/remade in the spiritual. First comes the natural, then the spiritual,... etc.

Sorry don't have a verse handy as I'm in a rush, I can try to find one later if you want.

Cheers,
Legoman Wait wait wait
Yes... Scripture would be be good and please explain further.

Which death are you talking about..
...when one is put into a casket? (Hebrews 9:27)
...Or when one is judged by God and the sinner - having been in hell because the Spirit is not with him (John 3:3 & 18) - is then thrown into the lake of fire? (Revelation 20:15)

Hurry back, because...
Inquiring saints want to know.

Richard

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:01 PM
I'm wondering if any of you could read the below and give me your input? I'm trying to communicate what the Lake of Fire is, what the Second Death is & why it's called the Second Death, who is placed there, and when this judgment takes place. Thanks for your help.

Hades

Capernaum will descend to Hades (Mt. 11:23; Lu 10:15).

The gates of Hades will not overpower the Church (Mt. 16:18).

After the rich man died, he was taken to Hades where he was in torment (Lu 16:23).

The soul of the Lord was not abandoned to Hades (Act 2:27).

The Lord has the keys of death and Hades (Rev. 1:18).

The sea, death, and Hades will give up the dead which are in them; and they will be judged according to their deeds (Rev. 20:13).

Death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14)

Lake of Fire

The beast and the false prophet, who deceives those who will receive the mark of the beast and worship his image during the end times, will be thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone (Rev. 19:20).

The devil, who deceives the world, will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. The beast, the false prophet, and the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10).

Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14).

Anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15).

The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will have their part in the lake of fire that burns with brimstone, which is the second death (Rev. 21:8).

Second Death

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:11).

The second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

From my understanding of Scripture, Hades is an actual place where torment can occur. One day, Hades will give up those who are in it to stand in judgment before the Lord (Rev. 20:11-13). Many call this the Great White Throne Judgment due to verse 11. Then, both death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 21:14). Additionally, anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Those who have practiced sins such as unbelief, murder, immorality, sorcery, idolatry, lying, etc. will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death (Rev. 20:14).

Why is it called the “second death”? My guess is that one dies physically once and some will also die in the Lake of Fire a second time. Since all are resurrected to life once again, those who endure the Lake of Fire die again and experience a second death.

“An hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth; those who did good to a resurrection of life, those who committed evil to a resurrection of judgment” (John 5:29)

“…having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked” (Acts 24:15).

My understanding is that some come to life just before the Millennial reign of Christ Jesus, and others come to life just after the Millennial reign…

“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed” (Rev. 20:5).Those passages you quoted give no indication whatsoever that believers are resurrected a thousand years before unbelievers. John 5:28-29 says that all people, saved and lost, will be resurrected at the same future hour or time. Just like it says here:

Daniel 12
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Like John 5:28-29, this passage indicates that everyone is resurrected at the same time. Acts 24:15 indicates that there will be a resurrection of the dead (singular event) that includes both the just and the unjust.

All the dead will be resurrected at the same time and all people will be judged or rewarded at the same time. That is what Jesus taught here:

Matthew 13
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus explains the parable in detail here:

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice that it says believers and unbelievers would be together in the world right up until the harvest, which is the end of the age. At that time they will all be gathered and separated. Unbelievers will be cast into a furnace of fire, which is the lake of fire. Believers will be rewarded by inheriting the kingdom of God the Father.

Jesus returns at the end of the age. Therefore, the resurrection of all the dead and the day of judgment will occur when He returns.

2 Tim 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Clearly, Jesus is coming back to judge the world. It's not going to be delayed until a thousand years later. We can see this clearly here:

Matthew 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

When Christ comes in His glory with His angels all people will be gathered before Him. As we saw in the parable of the wheat and tares, the angels will be gathering all the people and then separating them into two groups. In the parable, it was wheat and tares with the wheat referring to believers and the tares referring to unbelievers. Here, the believers are referred to as sheep and the unbelievers are referred to as goats.

Once they are separated, Jesus will then say to His sheep: "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." and they go into "life eternal". This is the kingdom of the Father that Matthew 13:43 speaks about. It is the kingdom in which no mortal flesh and blood will inherit (1 Cor 15:50).

Then Jesus will say to the unbelievers: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" and they then "go away into everlasting punishment". The "everlasting fire" is the same as the "furnace of fire" from Matthew 13:42, and it is the lake of fire.

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 03:43 PM
This may sound stupid, but if what you saying is those thrown in the lake of fire are consumed, burnt up, in essence annihilated, then answer this question. If God indeed does have the power to destroy the soul and wipe a person out of existence, why would he not just do that at the first death? Why wait till the end of time to Judge everyone and then do it? that just doesn't make any sense to me.

John146
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:14 PM
This may sound stupid, but if what you saying is those thrown in the lake of fire are consumed, burnt up, in essence annihilated, then answer this question. If God indeed does have the power to destroy the soul and wipe a person out of existence, why would he not just do that at the first death? Why wait till the end of time to Judge everyone and then do it? that just doesn't make any sense to me.Another question to ask is why take the position that they will be annihilated when scriptures like the following say otherwise?

Rev 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 25
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:22 PM
This may sound stupid, but if what you saying is those thrown in the lake of fire are consumed, burnt up, in essence annihilated, then answer this question. If God indeed does have the power to destroy the soul and wipe a person out of existence, why would he not just do that at the first death? Why wait till the end of time to Judge everyone and then do it? that just doesn't make any sense to me.
Two reasons: Probably more


To establish His kingdom physically on this earth (as promised), and removing Satan from the picture – showing that things would have been better if we (Adam) had just obeyed in the first place.


The judgment against Satan and those who follow him. To raise us ALL up -Declaring for all creation (even angels) the total righteousness of God. (See reason #1)

Veretax
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:36 PM
Right, I understand that he's doing it because, of certain promises/prophecy of scripture. What I am saying is if he ws just going to poof snuff those who do not accept grace out, why make those prophecies? I think the answer is in peters epistle. "Got is not desiring that any should perish, but that all come to repentance."

Richard H
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:55 PM
Right, I understand that he's doing it because, of certain promises/prophecy of scripture. What I am saying is if he ws just going to poof snuff those who do not accept grace out, why make those prophecies?If we could look at the situation as a non-participant, we might see that it is not just to fulfill the promises and prophecies. The reason for the promises and prophecies and for the millennium and the 2nd resurrection is to show (prove) Himself holy and just and righteous and merciful and loving ... All for the shame and condemnation of Satan.
To contrast Himself from Satan and justify His judgement.
If God wanted the quick and easy way, He would have just made us robots, but what would be the point?
I think the answer is in peters epistle. "Got is not desiring that any should perish, but that all come to repentance."Yes.
That's why we have to wait for Him. :yes:

legoman
Oct 24th 2008, 02:02 AM
Wait wait wait
Yes... Scripture would be be good and please explain further.

Which death are you talking about..
...when one is put into a casket? (Hebrews 9:27)
...Or when one is judged by God and the sinner - having been in hell because the Spirit is not with him (John 3:3 & 18) - is then thrown into the lake of fire? (Revelation 20:15)

Hurry back, because...
Inquiring saints want to know.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Ok I had a bit more time to look up some verses:

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

1 Cor 15:31 I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:36 As it is written:
“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

There are more verses along these lines, but that should give you the picture. All these verses are talking about the same thing: take up the cross daily, be crucified daily, dieing daily, dieing to sins, etc. When we follow Christ, our carnal sinful fleshy nature must die, and the spiritual side must live. It is a daily process.

Make sense? Just another meaning of death found in the bible...


Here's another interesting correlation:

Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you
1 Peter 4:16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


We believers will have our own fiery judgement and endure our own "second death".

Cheers,
Legoman

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 02:22 AM
Hi Richard,

Ok I had a bit more time to look up some verses:

<snip><just look at previous post - we need to save virtual ink>

We believers will have our own fiery judgement and endure our own "second death".

Cheers,
Legoman
Hi Logoman,
Well, now I’m quite befuddled.

You say the second death is our dying to sin?
I agree we (need to) die to sin, but you apparently don’t believe in a Great White Throne judgment – and the lake of fire (the second death) is for the believers?

That’s the most amazing interpretation I’ve heard yet.
Am I correct in what I seem to hear you saying?

Richard

LookingUp
Oct 24th 2008, 02:32 AM
Those passages you quoted give no indication whatsoever that believers are resurrected a thousand years before unbelievers. John 5:28-29 says that all people, saved and lost, will be resurrected at the same future hour or time. Just like it says here:...What's the 1,000 years about and the mention of the "first" resurrection? Why is it written that "the rest of the dead" did not come to life "until the thousand years were completed"?

20:2 And he laid (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2902&version=nas) hold (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2902&version=nas) of the dragon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1404&version=nas), the serpent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3789&version=nas) of old (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=744&version=nas), who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=nas) is the devil (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1228&version=nas) and Satan (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4567&version=nas), and bound (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1210&version=nas) him for a thousand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5507&version=nas) years (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2094&version=nas); 20:3 and he threw (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=906&version=nas) him into the abyss (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=12&version=nas), and shut (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2808&version=nas) it and sealed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4972&version=nas) it over (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1883&version=nas) him, so (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2443&version=nas) that he would not deceive (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4105&version=nas) the nations (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1484&version=nas) any (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2089&version=nas) longer (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2089&version=nas), until (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=891&version=nas) the thousand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5507&version=nas) years (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2094&version=nas) were completed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5055&version=nas); after (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3326&version=nas) these (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) things (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) he must (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1163&version=nas) be released (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3089&version=nas) for a short (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3398&version=nas) time (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5550&version=nas). 20:4 Then (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) I saw (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3708&version=nas) thrones (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2362&version=nas), and they sat (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2523&version=nas) on them, and judgment (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2917&version=nas) was given (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1325&version=nas) to them. And I saw the souls (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5590&version=nas) of those (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=nas) who had been beheaded (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3990&version=nas) because (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=nas) of their testimony (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3141&version=nas) of Jesus (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=nas) and because (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=nas) of the word (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3056&version=nas) of God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas), and those who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3748&version=nas) had not worshiped (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4352&version=nas) the beast (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2342&version=nas) or (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3761&version=nas) his image (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1504&version=nas), and had not received (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2983&version=nas) the mark (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5480&version=nas) on their forehead (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3359&version=nas) and on their hand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5495&version=nas); and they came to life (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2198&version=nas) and reigned (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=936&version=nas) with Christ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=nas) for a thousand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5507&version=nas) years (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2094&version=nas). 20:5 The rest (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3062&version=nas) of the dead (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3498&version=nas) did not come to life (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2198&version=nas) until (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=891&version=nas) the thousand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5507&version=nas) years (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2094&version=nas) were completed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5055&version=nas). This (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) is the first (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4413&version=nas) resurrection (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=386&version=nas). 20:6 Blessed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3107&version=nas) and holy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=40&version=nas) is the one who has (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2192&version=nas) a part (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3313&version=nas) in the first (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4413&version=nas) resurrection (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=386&version=nas); over (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1909&version=nas) these (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) the second (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1208&version=nas) death (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2288&version=nas) has (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2192&version=nas) no (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3756&version=nas) power (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1849&version=nas), but they will be priests (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2409&version=nas) of God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) and of Christ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=nas) and will reign (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=936&version=nas) with Him for a thousand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5507&version=nas) years (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2094&version=nas). 20:7 When (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3752&version=nas) the thousand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5507&version=nas) years (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2094&version=nas) are completed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5055&version=nas), Satan (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4567&version=nas) will be released (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3089&version=nas) from his prison (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5438&version=nas), 20:8 and will come (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1831&version=nas) out to deceive (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4105&version=nas) the nations (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1484&version=nas) which are in the four (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5064&version=nas) corners (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1137&version=nas) of the earth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1093&version=nas), Gog (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1136&version=nas) and Magog (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3098&version=nas), to gather (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4863&version=nas) them together (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4863&version=nas) for the war (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4171&version=nas); the number (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=706&version=nas) of them is like (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5613&version=nas) the sand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=285&version=nas) of the seashore (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2281&version=nas).

legoman
Oct 24th 2008, 02:57 AM
Hi Logoman,
Well, now I’m quite befuddled.

You say the second death is our dying to sin?
I agree we (need to) die to sin, but you apparently don’t believe in a Great White Throne judgment – and the lake of fire (the second death) is for the believers?

That’s the most amazing interpretation I’ve heard yet.
Am I correct in what I seem to hear you saying?

Richard

Hi Richard,

Did you read the scriptures I posted?

No, believers will not go in the lake of fire. That is not what I was saying.

We believers don't go in the lake of fire, but we will still be judged by fire.

1 Cor 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As in 1 Peter 4:17, judgment begins at the house of God (that's us). However we don't have to endure the second death (Lake of Fire), as you said (Rev 20:6). But that doesn't mean we don't have to go through our own personal "second death" ie. dying daily to the carnal nature.

Cheers,
Legoman

crush
Oct 24th 2008, 04:24 AM
Death and Hell in Rev 20:14 are referring to the characters riding together on the Pale Horse of Rev 6:8

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Death, in this case would be "the grave" or physical death as we know it.

Hell, in Rev 20:14 and 6:8, is more properly translated as "the unseen". A reference to the Earthly or Demonic spiritual realm that exists "side by side" with our physical realm. Each of these guys has their own particular areas of expertise it seems, and together they are allowed to kill 1/4 of the earth's population. Death kills by "death" (lol) and hunger. Hell kills by "the sword" and through "the beasts of the earth", or IOW people are killed by other people and animals that have been demonicly possesed.

At the beginning of the GT these "old ones" are raised up (from the pit?) just in time for Satan's "casting down" from heaven in Rev 12:9. Isaiah 14 tells the story pretty well.

At Christ's second coming, the demonic spiritual realm is removed from it's place and isn't a factor during the millenium period. Isa 26:19.... and the land of Rephaim thou causest to fall (YLT).

Death is the last enemy to be defeated, so "death" is still a factor through the millenium period.

The once-living creatures (Re'phaim) that died and whose spirits weren't recieved by God are raised from wherever Jesus sent them at his second coming (the pit?) And at GWT judgment day their spirits are "delivered" up before the throne and cast into the Lake of Fire. Their original physical bodies are never resurrected however, and anything that physically ever remained of them is destroyed when the "heavens and earth" pass away.

I don't believe they "burn up" or are destroyed at the time they are cast into the Lake of Fire. I think that if you are "immortal" before you are cast into the Lake of Fire that you will not die when cast into it, if you are "mortal" when cast into the lake, you will burn up. These creatures have inherited "spiritual" immortality from birth so they aren't destroyed by the flames.

I think this is also why "Death" is the last thing that's destroyed. Otherwise, if "death" were destroyed before the wicked mortals were cast into the lake, the wicked mortals would become "immortal" and wouldn't be destroyed by the flames, and no "second death" would be possible.

Satan and his angels, of course, are immortals, and we are clearly told that they aren't burned up by the flames, and they suffer forever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet, and their worshipers who have the mark, also seem to not burn up when cast into the lake. Probably a result of the [not God given] immortality associated with the mystery of the "mark of the beast"

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

The beast, false prophet, and their worshipers are cast into the Lake of Fire 1000 years early and don't have to face judgment day at the GWT. Everyone who takes the "mark of the beast" is not in the "book of life" so judgment is not required.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Gentle Soul
Oct 24th 2008, 05:21 AM
You guys are very smart on this subject, I'm learning much from you. Like anything else though, the more you learn, the more you realize what you still have to learn, and it goes on exponentially.

The book of life, does anybody care to elaborate on that one a bit more?

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 06:07 AM
Hi Richard,

Did you read the scriptures I posted?

No, believers will not go in the lake of fire. That is not what I was saying.

We believers don't go in the lake of fire, but we will still be judged by fire.

1 Cor 3
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As in 1 Peter 4:17, judgment begins at the house of God (that's us). However we don't have to endure the second death (Lake of Fire), as you said (Rev 20:6). But that doesn't mean we don't have to go through our own personal "second death" ie. dying daily to the carnal nature.

Cheers,
LegomanOK. :)
You threw me for a moment. The OP is about the lake of fire and the second death. So I got switched-up there.

You were making a parallel. I get it.
I do agree with your parallel, but I wouldn't label it as my "second death".

That label is already taken and it is not reserved for the righteous in Christ.

Richard

Dani H
Oct 24th 2008, 06:32 AM
This bears interjection as to definition of "death."

Which, in God's eyes, does not mean "ceasing to exist" ... because when He told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate the fruit ... did they cease to exist after they ate? No. Their spirit ceased to communicate with God. So, in God's eyes, death means "ceasing to communicate with one's environment."

That means if we die here, and now, according to God's way, we will not die then. We can't do any more than die. If we die to self, and let God resurrect His own nature within us and have the self-life replaced with His eternal life, then death can no longer touch us, any more than it can touch God, Who is eternal. Either die now, or die later. Either face His judgment now, or later. Either way, we're going to face it. How much better to face it now, isn't it? Crawl on the altar and let His fire fall upon us now, and burn everything away that is not of Him, or do it later. That is God's way as set forth in Scripture.

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 07:33 AM
The book of life, does anybody care to elaborate on that one a bit more?
Hi Gentle Soul, :)
Elaborate on the Book of Life? :hmm:
‘Dunno if I can do that, but here’s some Scripture: :D

The Book of Life is first seen in Psalm 69.
David is crying out to God about his enemies. :B
Add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Psalm 69:27,28

And then:
Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Philippians 4:3

Names apparently can be erased. :cry: Also see Psalm 69
'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 3:5

But names in it have been written from the foundation of the world. :hmm:
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Revelation 13:8

You need your name in the Book of Life to enter the New Jerusalem. :cool:
It is the Lamb’s Book. :saint:
I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 21:22-27

And of course, the book is opened at the judgment throne. :pray:
If your name isn’t there, it’s bad news. :eek:
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:12-15

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2008, 11:12 AM
The first resurrection is all those who have been raised before, during and after the tribulation period. For all these will reign with Christ during the Millennial kingdom.

The second resurrection is of none believers who will receive their spiritual bodies before they stand before the judgment throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death, which those who partake of the first resurrection have no fear of.

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Daniel 12:2
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (second resurrection and death)

They have to be resurrected into their immortal bodies before they can feel the second death. this second death is total seperation from God, they can see God and all that is happening in heaven but they can not participate.

Revelation 14:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=14&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


I posted this elsewhere in the forum, I have also added a bit extra onto this post which I hope will help to answers your question.

legoman
Oct 24th 2008, 01:15 PM
OK. :)
You threw me for a moment. The OP is about the lake of fire and the second death. So I got switched-up there.


Hey no problem :) I realized I may have been slightly off topic of the OP after I posted that, which probably added to the confusion. It was more in relation to the question divaD asked about whether there are other meanings of 'death' in the bible.



You were making a parallel. I get it.
I do agree with your parallel, but I wouldn't label it as my "second death".

That label is already taken and it is not reserved for the righteous in Christ.
Yes, the parallel is every man will be judged by fire, one way or another.

Is it possible there is a parallel between the second death (which is the lake of fire) and the 'death' that we believers must go through (dying to the carnal nature)?

Legoman

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 02:11 PM
Hey no problem :) I realized I may have been slightly off topic of the OP after I posted that, which probably added to the confusion. It was more in relation to the question divaD asked about whether there are other meanings of 'death' in the bible.

Yes, the parallel is every man will be judged by fire, one way or another.

Is it possible there is a parallel between the second death (which is the lake of fire) and the 'death' that we believers must go through (dying to the carnal nature)?

Legoman'Glad we got that confusion cleared up! :)
Too many threads and too many people looking at the symbolic as the literal and so having a conclusion that the literal must be symbolic... :B


:hmm: Hmmm... Lake... Fire... purification... dying to self... :idea:

Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Rev 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

A sea BTW: (for those who may not know) is a polished piece of brass - like a mirror - for the High Priest to examine himself to make sure He's clean before entering the Holy of Holys. (just can't find Scripture) AKA: Brasen Sea - mentioned in Jer 52:20, but I was looking for Scripture outlining it's use and purpose.

markedward
Oct 24th 2008, 05:14 PM
The Revelation shows Satan (the devil/dragon), the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire where they suffer torment "for ever and ever".

Yet some people apparently believe that wicked man who is thrown into it will not be in it "for ever and ever"...

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

So... if Satan (the devil) and his angels, and the beast and false prophet suffer torment "for ever and ever" - and how can someone suffer lest they exist to suffer? - then how could anyone conclude that wicked man will simply cease to exist, when Jesus directly said that wicked man would be cast into the eternal fire, the same fire where Satan, the fallen angels, the beast, and the false prophet suffer for ever and ever, and that the wicked would go to eternal punishment?

The unending aspect of the lake of fire is given three times: eternal fire, suffer for ever and ever, and eternal punishment.

It's not eternal punishment if you don't exist to be punished.
It's not foreverandever suffering if you don't exist to suffer.
It's not eternal fire if you cease to exist.

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 06:03 PM
I have a feeling you are right.
That is what it says.

However, we may not remember anything about it - as God will wipe away every tear.

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Ecc 1:10,11

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."
Revelation 21:3-5

Even this odd verse, which I think refers to the 2nd death.

The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
Isaiah 26:14

Even the lost Ark will not be missed.

"It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again.
Jeremiah 3:16

markedward
Oct 24th 2008, 07:20 PM
Jeremiah 3:16 came to pass in the second temple age. Note that Jeremiah was another prophet who prophesied the then-future return from the Babylonian Exile. 3:16 is a part of his prophecy about the return. When the Jews returned from the exile, they built another temple, and the ark of the covenant was no longer in it. It was gone, and they did not need it to continue on in their faith, just as Jeremiah prophesied. (And if not that, then at least the New Covenant age, in which worship of God no longer needs a temple, let alone the ark. Jeremiah 3:16 has been fulfilled already, either in the return from the Babylonian exile, or in the New Covenant of Christ, both of which were/are ages where the ark of the covenant no longer exists and is no longer used in worship of God.)

Isaiah 26:14 was written in the past-tense. It was referring to people who were already dead and had already been punished and destroyed, and had already been forgotten. It was speaking of things past, not things future.

Semi-tortured
Oct 24th 2008, 07:33 PM
I have a feeling you are right.
That is what it says.

However, we may not remember anything about it - as God will wipe away every tear.

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Ecc 1:10,11

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."
Revelation 21:3-5

Even this odd verse, which I think refers to the 2nd death.

The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
Isaiah 26:14

Even the lost Ark will not be missed.

"It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again.
Jeremiah 3:16

Ecclesiastes is a very tricky book to use as a representation of truth when you use a single verse. By taking the entire context of those verses, its not talking about heaven. Its simply talking about the fact that people in the future won't remember the things you did just like you don't remember what people before you did. It is just tying in with the theme of the book that everything you do here is in vain.

I can't imagine we'd forget everything we did here on Earth in heaven because we'd have no idea why we were there. It would almost end the concept of eternal life, because if I had a mind wipe to where I remembered nothing, there would be no continuity to join my two lives.

Richard H
Oct 24th 2008, 11:34 PM
Good points from both of you.

Thanks for telling me more about the prophets. :)

I did sort of toss Ecclesiastes in there, but I always take that book with a grain of salt - so to speak.
Solomon always seemed a bit jadded after getting all that wisdom. :rolleyes:

"Meaningless - I tell ya it's meaningless!"
__________:hmm:
<throwing hands in the air!>

divaD
Oct 25th 2008, 04:13 PM
This bears interjection as to definition of "death."

Which, in God's eyes, does not mean "ceasing to exist" ... because when He told Adam and Eve that they
would surely die if they ate the fruit ... did they cease to exist after they ate? No. Their spirit ceased
to communicate with God. So, in God's eyes, death means "ceasing to communicate with one's
environment."



You're simply misunderstanding what happened to Adam and Eve, and making it all about Adam and Eve, instead of all about man. It was man that died, not just Adam and Eve. Did Christ die in order to redeem just Adam and Eve? Since we know this is not so, then we know that when God told them they would die when they ate of the forbidden fruit, we know that God was speaking about all of mankind, and not just these two, otherwise we wouldn't have inherited their curses, and Jesus would have had no need to die for the rest of mankind.


2 Timothy 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


As we can see, it was Christ who hath abolished death. This all goes back to the garden when God told Adam, whom would be the beginning of mankind, and whom mankind would come thru, if and when he ate from the forbidden fruit, mankind would die.

I have to simply disagree with your definition of death that you only applied to Adam and Eve, but failed to apply to all of mankind also.

Simply put, if Christ wouldn't have died, death would not be abolished. We would all then die the 2nd death. Every last one of us.




No. Their spirit ceased
to communicate with God.


I don't buy this as a definition for death. If this were true, then no one's spirit would be able to communicate with God's Spirit. We can clearly see that this is not so, because God's Spirit has clearly been communicating with man's spirit since the fall, otherwise God wouldn't have anything to do with us anymore, nor would there have been a need to redeem us from the curse of death, by having Christ pay the price with His life.


I used to believe that we died spiritually, but the more I've thought about it, the more I've come to realize that the 2nd death is what man was cursed with by eating of the forbidden fruit. The 2nd death is final. This is what Christ saved us from. We're told in Rev, those of us that have part in the first resurrection, the 2nd death has no power over us.