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View Full Version : Calling all those that don't live in the USA, I have a question for you!



moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 02:15 PM
I would like to hear from those living in Australia, Canada, Africa, UK...and anywhere else that outside of the USA.

Here are my questions. Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?

Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?

Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?

List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.

The reason I ask this is because we read on here constantly from those living in the US, that they are concerned that their country isn't mentioned in the bible so think that means the US is destroyed before then or is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation. Personally I think they are placing way too much importance on one nation...but I guess its not uncommon to be concerned about your own nation in regards to bible prophecies but I just don't see those of other countries being concerned about there's! Maybe you are and I have missed those posts....

The bible doesn't mention hundreds if not thousands of countries by the way....:hmm:

Thanks for your input.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:10 PM
I would like to hear from those living in Australia, Canada, Africa, UK...and anywhere else that outside of the USA.

Here are my questions. Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?

Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?

Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?

List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.

The reason I ask this is because we read on here constantly from those living in the US, that they are concerned that their country isn't mentioned in the bible so think that means the US is destroyed before then or is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation. Personally I think they are placing way too much importance on one nation...but I guess its not uncommon to be concerned about your own nation in regards to bible prophecies but I just don't see those of other countries being concerned about there's! Maybe you are and I have missed those posts....

The bible doesn't mention hundreds if not thousands of countries by the way....:hmm:

Thanks for your input.

God blessWe here in the Republic of Texas are just whistling a happy tune over it. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/whistle.gif

http://politicsoffthegrid.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/texas-with-texas-flag.jpg

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 04:13 PM
We here in the Republic of Texas are just whistling a happy tune over it. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/whistle.gif

http://politicsoffthegrid.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/texas-with-texas-flag.jpg

Get out of here...you AMERICAN!...:lol::lol: :P

Bethany67
Oct 23rd 2008, 05:44 PM
I think the UK has not been singled out because we're simply not important enough. We're a tiny island. We were a world power for a couple of centuries; we're not now and won't be again. In that sense, God has already judged us - He blessed us to be a missionary nation, and we lost the plot and are now wallowing in selfishness, greed and xenophobia. Yes we're the financial banking centre of the world, and look where that's led us - a big public quarrel with another tiny island, Iceland. If we feature anywhere, it'll depend on our standing in the EU. We're in but not fully in, as we've opted out from various clauses so far, and we're not using the Euro.

I'll be keeping an eye on what our foreign policy does about Israel, but I think the significant nations will be in the Middle East, plus Russia and possibly China.

teddyv
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:14 PM
I would like to hear from those living in Australia, Canada, Africa, UK...and anywhere else that outside of the USA.
OK, I'm Canadian:).


Here are my questions. Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?
Never considered it.


Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?
See above.


Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?
I really, really doubt it.


List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.

The reason I ask this is because we read on here constantly from those living in the US, that they are concerned that their country isn't mentioned in the bible so think that means the US is destroyed before then or is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation. Personally I think they are placing way too much importance on one nation...but I guess its not uncommon to be concerned about your own nation in regards to bible prophecies but I just don't see those of other countries being concerned about there's! Maybe you are and I have missed those posts....

The bible doesn't mention hundreds if not thousands of countries by the way....:hmm:
I don’t know if this actually answers your question, but maybe it does in a roundabout way.

As a Canadian, there often seems to be undercurrent of conceit to Americans, especially America Christians, with respect to their place in the world - the “light on the hill” so to speak. It’s hard to put it into words because it’s a subtle “feeling” that I get. Furthermore, because the US is the current pre-eminent power in the world this of course sets it up in people’s interpretation of End of Times scenarios. I imagine in the height of the British Empire similar things were being considered as well.

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:48 PM
OK, I'm Canadian:).


Never considered it.


See above.


I really, really doubt it.


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I don’t know if this actually answers your question, but maybe it does in a roundabout way.

As a Canadian, there often seems to be undercurrent of conceit to Americans, especially America Christians, with respect to their place in the world - the “light on the hill” so to speak. It’s hard to put it into words because it’s a subtle “feeling” that I get. Furthermore, because the US is the current pre-eminent power in the world this of course sets it up in people’s interpretation of End of Times scenarios. I imagine in the height of the British Empire similar things were being considered as well.

Very insightful...thanks for your help on this.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:49 PM
I think the UK has not been singled out because we're simply not important enough. We're a tiny island. We were a world power for a couple of centuries; we're not now and won't be again. In that sense, God has already judged us - He blessed us to be a missionary nation, and we lost the plot and are now wallowing in selfishness, greed and xenophobia. Yes we're the financial banking centre of the world, and look where that's led us - a big public quarrel with another tiny island, Iceland. If we feature anywhere, it'll depend on our standing in the EU. We're in but not fully in, as we've opted out from various clauses so far, and we're not using the Euro.

I'll be keeping an eye on what our foreign policy does about Israel, but I think the significant nations will be in the Middle East, plus Russia and possibly China.

Yea...good points you made there! Thanks for your input on this. :)

God bless

David161099
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:50 PM
Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?

Maybe? Who cares really? If we are talking about the end of the world...why would I lament the end of the world?



Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?

Australia? Nah..we're too busy conquering cricket and Hollywood.



List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.

Australia wasn't discovered until the 17th century.....bible was written a few years before :)



Personally I think they are placing way too much importance on one nation

What? Americans overstating their importance to the exclusion of other countries? Novel idea.. :hmm:

bennie
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:57 PM
Maybe? Who cares really? If we are talking about the end of the world...why would I lament the end of the world?



Australia? Nah..we're too busy conquering cricket and Hollywood.



Australia wasn't discovered until the 17th century.....bible was written a few years before :)



What? Americans overstating their importance to the exclusion of other countries? Novel idea.. :hmm:


did you not just loose a test agains India????:pp:pp:pp:pp

Ta-An
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:24 PM
did you not just loose a test agains India????:pp:pp:pp:pp:lol: .


Scraping myself off the floor here.....


Julie..... well...... uhmm

We are in G_d's will.... whichever way the cookie crumbles ;)

ananias
Oct 23rd 2008, 10:45 PM
I would like to hear from those living in Australia, Canada, Africa, UK...and anywhere else that outside of the USA.

Here are my questions. Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?

Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?

Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?

List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.

The reason I ask this is because we read on here constantly from those living in the US, that they are concerned that their country isn't mentioned in the bible so think that means the US is destroyed before then or is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation. Personally I think they are placing way too much importance on one nation...but I guess its not uncommon to be concerned about your own nation in regards to bible prophecies but I just don't see those of other countries being concerned about there's! Maybe you are and I have missed those posts....

The bible doesn't mention hundreds if not thousands of countries by the way....:hmm:

Thanks for your input.

God bless

South Africa.

Answers to your questions:

No, no and no.




List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.



Err... oh, wait a minute.... The Southern hemisphere has never featured in any Bible prophecies? :)

I think the reason why so many Americans think about it that way is because some power is gonna lead the world as an all-powerful power in the last of the last days - and up until now, America has been one candidate for the position - simply because of its military and economic power .... but .... which power is represented by the feet of Nebuchadnezzar's image in Daniel 2, since the legs of iron represented the Roman Empire, and the feet still have the strength of the iron in them? :hmm:

Or do them feet represent all nations which are still ruled by the descendants of those nations' European colonizers? That would inlcude North, Central and South America, Australia, New Zealand and a whole bunch of other islands. :hmm:

ananias

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 23rd 2008, 11:03 PM
Hello Moonglow,

Costa Rica, hm who knows, but I am not sure and have to review but as some the plagues could be of a global character and others no for if it `d be so there wouldn`t be or survive the little flock.

Here is one:

And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. Revelation 16:8.

Global Warming from this point of view Costa Rica in my case could be in the list, who knows :]


Go well Moon

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 02:56 AM
I read through here and you know what struck me ...what I was the most impressed with? How humble all of you are..humble also in regards to your own countries. Being an American...its not something I ever hear from other American's. I wish we were as humble...maybe we would be doing better if we were!

food for thought anyway...

Tomorrow I will reply to individual posts....way too tired too tonight. Thank you all. :) I am happy to know each of you. :)

God's blessings on you all.

David161099
Oct 24th 2008, 11:26 AM
I read through here and you know what struck me ...what I was the most impressed with? How humble all of you are..humble also in regards to your own countries. Being an American...its not something I ever hear from other American's. I wish we were as humble...maybe we would be doing better if we were!

food for thought anyway...

Tomorrow I will reply to individual posts....way too tired too tonight. Thank you all. :) I am happy to know each of you. :)

God's blessings on you all.

Yes, there is always danger in being over-confident. Especially engaged to conflicts. Under-estimating enemies etc.

Blessed are the Meek for they shall inherit the earth.

DIZZY
Oct 24th 2008, 11:46 AM
Well the bible tells us all nations will go up against the camp of the saints. So I consider that to mention every know nation in the world. I don't think you need to worry about your nation or any other nation just yet.

Revelation 20:8-10
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

mikeynash
Oct 24th 2008, 12:36 PM
forgive me - I'm from the UK... where specifically does it mention the "USA" in the bible? Bid confuddlesd

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 01:52 PM
Well the bible tells us all nations will go up against the camp of the saints. So I consider that to mention every know nation in the world. I don't think you need to worry about your nation or any other nation just yet.

Revelation 20:8-10
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.This occurrence in Revelation 20 isn't until the end of the Millennium.

However, this.....

Revelation 16:14 & 16 - "They go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."

....will definitely occur during the Tribulation. :yes:

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 01:53 PM
forgive me - I'm from the UK... where specifically does it mention the "USA" in the bible? Bid confuddlesdNowhere. :no:

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 02:33 PM
forgive me - I'm from the UK... where specifically does it mention the "USA" in the bible? Bid confuddlesd

It doesn't as Luke said, but American's seem to be very bothered that we aren't mentioned...(though the bible was written hundreds of years before American was supposedly discovered and then later made into a nation. I think what they might be thinking is since Revelation is about a future time, they think it should be mentioned or that we are the mysterious Babylon mentioned in it. I am guessing they think this because they see our nation as so important and powerful...though many nations have come and gone that were important and powerful also (and corrupt)...since the mysterious Babylon in Revelation is very corrupt. Though American isn't nearly as wicked as many other nations in the world. Anyway I am just tired of the over focus on our nation and personally I just think its arrogant and wrong to try to force our nation into scriptures at all...with the exception of course on the verses on ALL nations...

So I was just wondering if people in other nations were as obsessed about their nation being in the bible as the Americans are. Or think their nation isn't mentioned because its been destroyed before these events take place in Revelation like some American's think in regards to our nation. They think since its not mentioned it must mean we are destroyed or fail as a nation before these events happen. I think they are really stretching things too far!

And they tend to gauge what is happen in our country as to whether the end times is close or not without taking into consideration what is happening in other countries...as if our only our country matters and the others don't. :cool:

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 02:40 PM
Looking a little further down the road, past the Tribulation, if you read the boundary descriptions in Ezekiel really carefully and draw a map based on them, the Millennial Kingdom map looks like this.....
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http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/states/texas_small.gif

:lol:

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 02:47 PM
Looking a little further down the road, past the Tribulation, if you read the boundary descriptions in Ezekiel really carefully and draw a map based on them, the Millennial Kingdom map looks like this.....
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http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/states/texas_small.gif

:lol:

lol you are such a brat you know? :lol:

I think we should all move to Hawaii actually..then wave goodbye as America is split in half by the giant earthquake someone once posted on here that 'many' had dreams and visions of that would split the country in half...and watch it sink into the ocean...:rolleyes:

So....so much for Texas! :P

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 02:58 PM
lol you are such a brat you know? :lol:Thank you, thank you. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/humble.gif
I think we should all move to Hawaii actually..then wave goodbye as America is split in half by the giant earthquake someone once posted on here that 'many' had dreams and visions of that would split the country in half...and watch it sink into the ocean...:rolleyes:Are you sure you want to be in a chain of volcanic islands during an earthquake?
So....so much for Texas! :PHmmph. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/mmph.gif

:D

David161099
Oct 24th 2008, 03:05 PM
So I was just wondering if people in other nations were as obsessed about their nation being in the bible as the Americans are.

Yeah Mate...from my exeprience it's pretty much you guys in the USA. Usually anyone who challenges that insular look that your fellow nationals have...are branded anti-American.

It seems 'you are with me or against' me is the attitude...whereas most of the time it is just a neutral critical observation form the outside.

The Rest of the world feels like saying to the average patriotic American: "Okay Chill out...we love you guys as part of the planet Earth..but you have no more inherent worth than any of God's other Children"

I think Americans forget their Allies too or take them for granted. Especially those of us that share the common English language. We English speakers are united culturally somewhat across the globe.

I've had Americans lecture me that I wouldn't understand having loved ones got to the Iraq War. That is when I have had to remind them what the "Coalition of the Willing' was and that Australia backed up the US with troops in all the latest wars.

It's like my loved ones have gone to war because of the actions of your president, and you lecture me like I wouldn't understand..

I've even been told it's the height of arrogance for a non-American to have an opinion on the US election, and that we should mind our own business. Where do I even begin to educate people like that on: International Economics, trade, Military alliances etc etc.

(Btw the whole globe is Cheering for Obama, and yes that's a heck of a lot of Christians too.)

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 03:33 PM
Thank you, thank you. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/humble.gifAre you sure you want to be in a chain of volcanic islands during an earthquake?Hmmph. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/mmph.gif

:D

:lol::lol:

Ok fine...the North Pole is it! We can all hang out with Santa clause throwing snowballs at each other while the rest of the world goes to hell in a hand basket...:rolleyes:

:P:P

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 03:44 PM
Yeah Mate...from my exeprience it's pretty much you guys in the USA. Usually anyone who challenges that insular look that your fellow nationals have...are branded anti-American.

It seems 'you are with me or against' me is the attitude...whereas most of the time it is just a neutral critical observation form the outside.

The Rest of the world feels like saying to the average patriotic American: "Okay Chill out...we love you guys as part of the planet Earth..but you have no more inherent worth than any of God's other Children"

I think Americans forget their Allies too or take them for granted. Especially those of us that share the common English language. We English speakers are united culturally somewhat across the globe.

I've had Americans lecture me that I wouldn't understand having loved ones got to the Iraq War. That is when I have had to remind them what the "Coalition of the Willing' was and that Australia backed up the US with troops in all the latest wars.

It's like my loved ones have gone to war because of the actions of your president, and you lecture me like I wouldn't understand..

I've even been told it's the height of arrogance for a non-American to have an opinion on the US election, and that we should mind our own business. Where do I even begin to educate people like that on: International Economics, trade, Military alliances etc etc.

(Btw the whole globe is Cheering for Obama, and yes that's a heck of a lot of Christians too.)

Wow...ignorance abounds it seems here in our country...:rolleyes:

Well first let me say that as an American, I am truly sorry you and others have been treated this way in both rudeness, arrogance and ignorance! good grief...

As children we are taught to have 'pride' in our country...this starts pretty early in life. America has had to overcome alot in her early history...though a closer look at that history I think actually gives us alot to be ashamed about! And its fight for Independence...a long hard bloody battle for sure...but its really no different then what any other country has either gone through or has endured in their history too. I guess what I am saying is all countries had endured their share of hardship in their history. That doesn't make us special really. I get so tired of them saying...'and this is what makes our country so great'...never mentioning much of the bad stuff that certainly doesn't make us great. Then we wonder why so much of the rest of the world hates us...:cool:

I think the rest of the world would like to see a democrats in office because of the change in world relationship...can't say I blame them for that.


The news here will mention the deaths of those fighting in the war that are from other countries..or the enforcements of them or the withdrawal but yea the main focus has always been on the American soldiers. They should give more time and credit to those that have come from other countries to help fight in the war.

I think most of all we just need to get off our high horse and realize we need to get along with the rest of the world and not try to lord over them because we think we are somehow better then they are...

Thanks so much for your insightful post! It was a real eye opener.

God bless

Noblesurvey
Oct 24th 2008, 03:48 PM
I once heard Chuck Missler speaking about the end times and he refferred to the following passage with regard to the USA and Pretty much most of the western world:

Ezek 39:6

And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord .


KJV

I cant really remember too well but he alluded to the way our cultures are (I'm from Australia and I amagine it isn't much different to the States) as being careless and from Ezekiel's point of veiw we would ahve been Isles. Chuck put forward the idea that we could be involved in the Magog attack on Israel. I think he put it that the "allies" would threaten Russia (Magog) not to attack Israel, and end up getting more than they bargained for.

This is very vague I know, but he put it far more eloquently than I ever could. Has anyone else heard him because I wouldn't mind a refresher.

As far as I know that is about as much of a mention that any nation outside of OT geography gets.

I look forward to seeing what everyone else thinks about this!

Geat Thread!

God Bless ;)

teddyv
Oct 24th 2008, 03:52 PM
:lol::lol:

Ok fine...the North Pole is it! We can all hang out with Santa clause throwing snowballs at each other while the rest of the world goes to hell in a hand basket...:rolleyes:

:P:P
I don't know about that. With the way the polar icecaps are melting I you better bring your swimsuit :).

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 04:01 PM
I once heard Chuck Missler speaking about the end times and he refferred to the following passage with regard to the USA and Pretty much most of the western world:

Ezek 39:6

And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord .


KJV

I cant really remember too well but he alluded to the way our cultures are (I'm from Australia and I amagine it isn't much different to the States) as being careless and from Ezekiel's point of veiw we would ahve been Isles. Chuck put forward the idea that we could be involved in the Magog attack on Israel. I think he put it that the "allies" would threaten Russia (Magog) not to attack Israel, and end up getting more than they bargained for.

This is very vague I know, but he put it far more eloquently than I ever could. Has anyone else heard him because I wouldn't mind a refresher.

As far as I know that is about as much of a mention that any nation outside of OT geography gets.

I look forward to seeing what everyone else thinks about this!

Geat Thread!

God Bless ;)


I have heard so many sermons given (by American preachers mostly) that also include American in some fashion in the end times. China and Russia are always the bad guys...the million soldiers evil army too. (I truly wish someone from those countries could post..image their take on this! They may see them as the good guys and American as the evil one in Revelation!! Talk about a turn around!) Those countries get picked due to population size...big enough to man an army that size and because they have always been deemed evil and bad due to how they treat other nations...(though many nations think American is evil and bad due to how they treat other nations!)

American is rarely seen even by Americans as being good in any of Revelations...due to our many sins...which we are sinful...but so it every other country! They just think we are so important..even in a bad way, that we must be in there somewhere! So yea I have heard this take too on things.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 04:02 PM
I once heard Chuck Missler speaking about the end times and he refferred to the following passage with regard to the USA and Pretty much most of the western world:

Ezek 39:6
And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord .

KJV

I cant really remember too well but he alluded to the way our cultures are (I'm from Australia and I amagine it isn't much different to the States) as being careless and from Ezekiel's point of veiw we would ahve been Isles. Chuck put forward the idea that we could be involved in the Magog attack on Israel. I think he put it that the "allies" would threaten Russia (Magog) not to attack Israel, and end up getting more than they bargained for.

This is very vague I know, but he put it far more eloquently than I ever could. Has anyone else heard him because I wouldn't mind a refresher.

As far as I know that is about as much of a mention that any nation outside of OT geography gets.

I look forward to seeing what everyone else thinks about this!

Geat Thread!

God Bless ;)


Well first, Gog/Magog is not about Russia, that's a common misunderstanding a lot of people have. Also, when Missler takes the "isles" and decides somehow that Ezekiel was referring to western society, that's just too much of a stretch. I mean, how do we know that "isles" isn't referring to, say, Indonesia or Hawaii? At least those are islands. It's just another instance of somebody trying desperately to "find" the USA in prophecy. We ain't there.

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 04:02 PM
I don't know about that. With the way the polar icecaps are melting I you better bring your swimsuit :).


Oh yea I forgot! (packing swimsuit, towels, floaty things...and polar bear repellent)
:lol:

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 04:07 PM
the million soldiers evil army too. (I truly wish someone from those countries could post..image their take on this!I'll give you mine. People who see China in Revelation 9:16's 200-million-soldier army are just being irresponsible with the text. If somebody will simply take 30 seconds to read the words written there and not try to twist their meaning around, it will be very obvious that this is clearly no human army. Besides, the "Kings of the East" that the same people try to connect this army with aren't even mentioned until seven chapters later, in Revelation 16.

It just blows me away how people will come up with the most ridiculous things just to try to find a way to have the fulfillment occurring "today".

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 04:18 PM
I'll give you mine. People who see China in Revelation 9:16's 200-million-soldier army are just being irresponsible with the text. If somebody will simply take 30 seconds to read the words written there and not try to twist their meaning around, it will be very obvious that this is clearly no human army. Besides, the "Kings of the East" that the same people try to connect this army with aren't even mentioned until seven chapters later, in Revelation 16.

It just blows me away how people will come up with the most ridiculous things just to try to find a way to have the fulfillment occurring "today".

Well lets see...I have seen posts that suggested this army could come from ape/men hybrids that at one time Russia under Salton did try to do! As insane as that sounds.... And at one time there were alot of posts on here on cloning and the fear a clone army could be made...wonder what happened to all those posts? :hmm: They were also so sure this would happen and in the near future too. This was when cloning was hot topic in the news alot. They say this is also why this all couldn't have happened in the past...not enough people...but there is now! :cool:

Noblesurvey
Oct 24th 2008, 04:21 PM
I'm not arguing that you are wrong.. I wouldn't presume to know enough..

I just think that it is peculiar that you dont hear of any other nations "rooting" for Israel. Offhand I cant think of any nation other than Great Britain that concerns itself with Israel's welfare.

Russia supply's arms to its sworn enemies and defends them on the international scene quite often.. so it would seem logical that they would make up part of magog. I am not saying that all Russians are evil either that would be an absurd generalisation!

Isnt it true that the Russian people are descendants of Cush, which is mentioned as being part of Gog/Magog? Once again.. I'm not saying that I am right.. just curious to learn form people who might know.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 04:22 PM
Well lets see...I have seen posts that suggested this army could come from ape/men hybrids that at one time Russia under Salton did try to do! As insane as that sounds.... And at one time there were alot of posts on here on cloning and the fear a clone army could be made...wonder what happened to all those posts? :hmm: They were also so sure this would happen and in the near future too. This was when cloning was hot topic in the news alot. They say this is also why this all couldn't have happened in the past...not enough people...but there is now! :cool:All I can say is just http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/gaah.gif

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 04:30 PM
I'm not arguing that you are wrong.. I wouldn't presume to know enough..

I just think that it is peculiar that you dont hear of any other nations "rooting" for Israel. Offhand I cant think of any nation other than Great Britain that concerns itself with Israel's welfare.

Russia supply's arms to its sworn enemies and defends them on the international scene quite often.. so it would seem logical that they would make up part of magog. I am not saying that all Russians are evil either that would be an absurd generalisation!

Isnt it true that the Russian people are descendants of Cush, which is mentioned as being part of Gog/Magog? Once again.. I'm not saying that I am right.. just curious to learn form people who might know.

boy I don't...haven't heard on that...maybe some one else would know..

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 04:31 PM
All I can say is just http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/gaah.gif

awww poor Luke...


go take your blood pressure medication...

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 04:33 PM
awww poor Luke...


go take your blood pressure medication...This is all I need...http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/coke1.gif

Life is good now. :D

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 04:34 PM
This is all I need...http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/coke1.gif

Life is good now. :D

boo coke...Dr. Pepper is better!!:pp

:lol:

ananias
Oct 24th 2008, 06:04 PM
Listen you guys,

America has brought many GREAT things to the world: Walt Disney, "The Sound of Music" and other really good kiddies-classics, "The Brady Bunch" (I'm going too far back for most younger folks here now...)

And THE TRUTH IS that if it wasn't for America's military help and American's tax-payer's money after the end of WW II, Russia would have taken over all of Western Europe and the Europeans today - 95% of them, would have been as dirt-poor as most Africans - AND THAT'S THE TRUTH.

And if it wasn't for America and it's intervention in areas of the world that Russia attempted to turn into comminist states (such as Vietnam, which, admittedly, turned into a disaster), communism WOULD NOT have collapsed BEFORE it had spread to nearly all the world.

AND if it wasn't for American business opening huge factories in poor countries - MANY people would be without work (my South African borther works for an American company)

But America has also brought many really BAD things to the world: an interpretation of "liberty" which permits bondage to porn, etc, etc (I don't have to tell you the rest).

Why and how is it that a nation that gave so much good to the world could also give so much evil?

The answer is simple: AMERICA WAS A FREE NATION (I have a terrible fear that in my lifetime the word WAS will become appplicable in this regard)

But IN GOD'S eyes, there are no Americans, Brits, Australians, Jews, Greeks, Chinese, whatever... there are only the saved, and the lost.

God bless yooz, God bless America

ananias

Cyberseeker
Oct 24th 2008, 06:11 PM
The reason I ask this is because we read on here constantly from those living in the US, that they are concerned that their country isn't mentioned in the bible so think that means the US is destroyed before then or is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation.

I suspect the reason US end-timers get caught up in this sort of talk is because they have been more affected by teachers such as Herbert Armstrong.

However I would like to add that the children of Israel passed through New Zealand during their 40 year wanderings. We know this because they suffered from Moa bites.

http://www.zealand.org.nz/images/moa0.jpg

My pennies worth. :2cents:

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 06:16 PM
The children of Israel passed through New Zealand during their 40 year wanderings. We know this because they suffered from Moa bites.Man, and to think I thought the parting of the Red Sea was big.........

brakelite
Oct 24th 2008, 08:51 PM
Hi everyone. Happy Sabbath from NZ.;)
NZ is mentioned specifically in at least one place.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.:help:

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 11:18 PM
Listen you guys,

America has brought many GREAT things to the world: Walt Disney, "The Sound of Music" and other really good kiddies-classics, "The Brady Bunch" (I'm going too far back for most younger folks here now...)

And THE TRUTH IS that if it wasn't for America's military help and American's tax-payer's money after the end of WW II, Russia would have taken over all of Western Europe and the Europeans today - 95% of them, would have been as dirt-poor as most Africans - AND THAT'S THE TRUTH.

And if it wasn't for America and it's intervention in areas of the world that Russia attempted to turn into comminist states (such as Vietnam, which, admittedly, turned into a disaster), communism WOULD NOT have collapsed BEFORE it had spread to nearly all the world.

AND if it wasn't for American business opening huge factories in poor countries - MANY people would be without work (my South African borther works for an American company)

But America has also brought many really BAD things to the world: an interpretation of "liberty" which permits bondage to porn, etc, etc (I don't have to tell you the rest).

Why and how is it that a nation that gave so much good to the world could also give so much evil?

The answer is simple: AMERICA WAS A FREE NATION (I have a terrible fear that in my lifetime the word WAS will become appplicable in this regard)

But IN GOD'S eyes, there are no Americans, Brits, Australians, Jews, Greeks, Chinese, whatever... there are only the saved, and the lost.

God bless yooz, God bless America

ananias

Good points...but the thing is every nation in the world has given the rest of the world good things too....and bad things. American isn't special in this. And the fact we are made up of people from all over the world...well...we could say much of what we have given to the world...really came from other parts of the world to start with! :lol:

God bless

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 11:32 PM
OK, I'm Canadian:).


Never considered it.


See above.


I really, really doubt it.


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I don’t know if this actually answers your question, but maybe it does in a roundabout way.

As a Canadian, there often seems to be undercurrent of conceit to Americans, especially America Christians, with respect to their place in the world - the “light on the hill” so to speak. It’s hard to put it into words because it’s a subtle “feeling” that I get. Furthermore, because the US is the current pre-eminent power in the world this of course sets it up in people’s interpretation of End of Times scenarios. I imagine in the height of the British Empire similar things were being considered as well.

I think the American Christians feel this way because we were founded on Christian principles. And since we have 'fallen' so far away from those principles they see us as either needing the wrath of God to come down on us, or we end up being the Babylon in Revelation. But you made a good point...what were Christians thinking less then 200 years old in regards to the end time? American hasn't been considered a great or powerful nation until probably oh 75 years ago...if that long. That is a very short time when looking at human history that covers thousands of years at least. So when American only had a few states in the Union...what were those Christians thinking about who Babylon was in the bible? :hmm: Or going back even further!

I think American's need to remember HOW, in part, we became a nation...it wasn't anything Godly we did. We slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Indians and took their land from them. Doesn't seem like to me in this respect, we were founded on anything Godly at all to start with. :( Then we talk about how corrupt we have become now a days...its kind of like, compared to what part of our history have we become more corrupt exactly????

Meanwhile the Indians that have survived lived in horrible poverty..in some places they can't even get running water. They have no hope for the future trapped on reservation so drink themselves to death..

That is our legacy that you never seen the government or those who talk about how great our nation is that ever mentions. Personally, I just don't think we have alot to be proud of.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 03:18 AM
Hi everyone. Happy Sabbath from NZ.;)
NZ is mentioned specifically in at least one place.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.:help:Oh, OK, so New Zealand will end up in Sydney Harbor. :D

Rocking horse
Oct 26th 2008, 10:12 AM
America is a hugely important country....everyone knows that....but there are other countries in the world, though sometimes by all the media and hype that we hear, you'd never think so. Every country in the world thinks it's important. I went to America in 1993 and a lot of people I met there didn't even know where we were on the map, yet Australians have made many advances in science and industry, and fought along side other nations in wars. Why should Americans think they are the only ones to worry because they are not mentioned...they aren't the only country in the world.....though sometimes we get the impression that they think they are..........

I don't care if Australia is mentioned in the Bible or not...I don't care if America or Russia or England or any other place isn't mentioned.....God's in control, that's all that matters.

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 03:38 PM
America is a hugely important country....everyone knows that....but there are other countries in the world, though sometimes by all the media and hype that we hear, you'd never think so. Every country in the world thinks it's important. I went to America in 1993 and a lot of people I met there didn't even know where we were on the map, yet Australians have made many advances in science and industry, and fought along side other nations in wars. Why should Americans think they are the only ones to worry because they are not mentioned...they aren't the only country in the world.....though sometimes we get the impression that they think they are..........

I don't care if Australia is mentioned in the Bible or not...I don't care if America or Russia or England or any other place isn't mentioned.....God's in control, that's all that matters.

Yep.

That is what I am trying to get the Americans on here to see...so hopefully they will quick trying to force us into scripture...

God bless

brakelite
Oct 27th 2008, 12:19 AM
Oh, OK, so New Zealand will end up in Sydney Harbor. :D

One fifth of all NZers in the world live in Australia. Might as well the rest of us go too:giveup:

That said, I am convinced that America is in bible prophecy as you and I have spoken of in th epast. My latest contribution on that subject is in the woman of Rev 12:1 thread in ETC.
Regards, a Kiwi still in NZ. For the time being:cool:

Rocking horse
Oct 27th 2008, 01:17 AM
One fifth of all NZers in the world live in Australia. Might as well the rest of us go too:giveup:

That said, I am convinced that America is in bible prophecy as you and I have spoken of in th epast. My latest contribution on that subject is in the woman of Rev 12:1 thread in ETC.
Regards, a Kiwi still in NZ. For the time being:cool:

Hey "cousin" you're welcome in Oz at any time... :kiss:

CoffeeCat
Oct 27th 2008, 01:33 AM
I would like to hear from those living in Australia, Canada, Africa, UK...and anywhere else that outside of the USA.

Here are my questions. Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?

Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?

Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?

List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.

The reason I ask this is because we read on here constantly from those living in the US, that they are concerned that their country isn't mentioned in the bible so think that means the US is destroyed before then or is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation. Personally I think they are placing way too much importance on one nation...but I guess its not uncommon to be concerned about your own nation in regards to bible prophecies but I just don't see those of other countries being concerned about there's! Maybe you are and I have missed those posts....

The bible doesn't mention hundreds if not thousands of countries by the way....:hmm:

Thanks for your input.

God bless

I'm Canadian. :) (I guess you knew that!)

I've never been concerned about my country not being mentioned in the Bible. For one thing, I'd fall head over heels in surprise if it WERE mentioned -- we didn't become a country until a thousand years plus quite a few centuries had passed after the Bible was written.... and North America hadn't been discovered as a land mass! ;)

For another thing, I don't think it matters at ALL that we aren't mentioned there. Those of us in Canada who are Christ's are Christ's. Those who aren't Christ's should be the ones we're witnessing to. And that's about it. There's no point thinking we're more important than we actually are. We're a nation VERY much in need of God's guidance.

It always amuses me that sometimes, people from the United States think the prophecies in the Bible are about them. Nations and kingdoms rise and fall, and nations and kingdoms have assumed for generations that THEY had God's favour.... and those same ones generally fell, once they got so confident that they forgot what humility was.

If prophecy is going to come true in any place on earth, I imagine it would be in the very oldest places -- you know, the ones actually mentioned in the Bible. Greece. Rome. Judea. The Mesopotamian area. Asia, perhaps. But North America, I doubt. And I say that as a North American.

DIZZY
Oct 27th 2008, 04:53 AM
This occurrence in Revelation 20 isn't until the end of the Millennium.

However, this.....

Revelation 16:14 & 16 - "They go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."

....will definitely occur during the Tribulation. :yes:

Hi David,
I agree this occurs during the Tribulation but I believe it happens at the end of the Tribulation. Where all nations gather together but it doesn't happen until Rev 19. They are gathered together in Rev 16 but they do not fight until Rev 19 at the coming of the Lord.

Revelation 19:17-21
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Joel 3:9-17
9 Proclaim this among the nations:

“ Prepare for war!
Wake up the mighty men,
Let all the men of war draw near,
Let them come up.
10 Beat your plowshares into swords
And your pruning hooks into spears;
Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’”
11 Assemble and come, all you nations,
And gather together all around.
Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD.
12 “ Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe.
Come, go down;
For the winepress is full,
The vats overflow—
For their wickedness is great.”
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will grow dark,
And the stars will diminish their brightness.
16 The LORD also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the LORD will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.
17 “ So you shall know that I am the LORD your God,
Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain.
Then Jerusalem shall be holy,
And no aliens shall ever pass through her again.”

So once again I believe we don't need to worry whether we will be here or not. Unless our nation is one that turns its back on God and He might decide to destroy it before the tribulation period.

Either way I am not worried for I belong to Him and He will protect me through all of it and if He chooses that I should die then so be it.

Luke 12:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=12&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

I notice here in Aussie land our government is turning their back on God, so I guess Aussie land is on the hit list.

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 08:06 PM
One fifth of all NZers in the world live in Australia. Might as well the rest of us go too:giveup:

That said, I am convinced that America is in bible prophecy as you and I have spoken of in th epast. My latest contribution on that subject is in the woman of Rev 12:1 thread in ETC.
Regards, a Kiwi still in NZ. For the time being:cool:

Thanks for your input on this. You guys never have winter do you? Must be nice. (yes I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand...:lol:)


CoffeeCat:I'm Canadian. (I guess you knew that!)

I've never been concerned about my country not being mentioned in the Bible. For one thing, I'd fall head over heels in surprise if it WERE mentioned -- we didn't become a country until a thousand years plus quite a few centuries had passed after the Bible was written.... and North America hadn't been discovered as a land mass!

For another thing, I don't think it matters at ALL that we aren't mentioned there. Those of us in Canada who are Christ's are Christ's. Those who aren't Christ's should be the ones we're witnessing to. And that's about it. There's no point thinking we're more important than we actually are. We're a nation VERY much in need of God's guidance.

It always amuses me that sometimes, people from the United States think the prophecies in the Bible are about them. Nations and kingdoms rise and fall, and nations and kingdoms have assumed for generations that THEY had God's favour.... and those same ones generally fell, once they got so confident that they forgot what humility was.

If prophecy is going to come true in any place on earth, I imagine it would be in the very oldest places -- you know, the ones actually mentioned in the Bible. Greece. Rome. Judea. The Mesopotamian area. Asia, perhaps. But North America, I doubt. And I say that as a North American.

Actually I always thought you were from another planet...:lol:

I know what you mean...makes me wonder what were the Christians two hundred years ago thinking in terms of what nations were what in Revelation...before North American was supposedly discovered....were they wrong but we are right? :hmm:

God bless

CoffeeCat
Oct 28th 2008, 04:19 AM
Actually I always thought you were from another planet...:lol:

Well, you know what CS Lewis said.... "if nothing in this world satisfies me, perhaps I was made for another world".... :lol:


I know what you mean...makes me wonder what were the Christians two hundred years ago thinking in terms of what nations were what in Revelation...before North American was supposedly discovered....were they wrong but we are right? :hmm:

God bless

I'll assume the 'two hundred years' was a typo :) but yeah, I think you've gotten to the heart of the matter -- essentially, it's VERY safe to say that we humans become very sure of ourselves... until we're proven wrong... and I think this happens deliberately. Only GOD knows how it'll all turn out. Only He needs to know. The rest of us, much as we hate to admit it, have been guessing and pulling at straws for centuries, and not much more.

I'm perfectly okay with not analyzing everything to bits, honestly. I don't need to know which nations will rise and fall and who'll be involved in 'the last days'. I only know that only those who are with God will be saved. And that's why we need to get out there and tell people about Him.

Just because I have a WEIRD sense of humour.... after all the argument and analysis and centuries of debate over the meaning of revelation.... I'd laugh VERY hard if I got to heaven one day, and God said "you silly humans. You read WAAAAAY too much into dreams and visions! It was just a DREAM!" :lol: (now, many would say "it has meaning!!" -- and it probably does. But I'm not a good dream interpreter, so I'll leave that to others who can do it well.)

Kudo Shinichi
Oct 28th 2008, 11:07 AM
I heard from my pastor in camp that the Rising Sun (Japan) and other countries in South East Asia will join in Armageddon...
------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to hear from those living in Australia, Canada, Africa, UK...and anywhere else that outside of the USA.

Here are my questions. Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?

Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?

Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?

List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.

The reason I ask this is because we read on here constantly from those living in the US, that they are concerned that their country isn't mentioned in the bible so think that means the US is destroyed before then or is the Babylon mentioned in Revelation. Personally I think they are placing way too much importance on one nation...but I guess its not uncommon to be concerned about your own nation in regards to bible prophecies but I just don't see those of other countries being concerned about there's! Maybe you are and I have missed those posts....

The bible doesn't mention hundreds if not thousands of countries by the way....:hmm:

Thanks for your input.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 12:42 PM
I heard from my pastor in camp that the Rising Sun (Japan) and other countries in South East Asia will join in Armageddon.Considering that Revelation 16 says "all nations" in reference to Armageddon, that should be a pretty safe conclusion.

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 01:43 PM
Well, you know what CS Lewis said.... "if nothing in this world satisfies me, perhaps I was made for another world".... :lol:



I'll assume the 'two hundred years' was a typo :) but yeah, I think you've gotten to the heart of the matter -- essentially, it's VERY safe to say that we humans become very sure of ourselves... until we're proven wrong... and I think this happens deliberately. Only GOD knows how it'll all turn out. Only He needs to know. The rest of us, much as we hate to admit it, have been guessing and pulling at straws for centuries, and not much more.

I'm perfectly okay with not analyzing everything to bits, honestly. I don't need to know which nations will rise and fall and who'll be involved in 'the last days'. I only know that only those who are with God will be saved. And that's why we need to get out there and tell people about Him.

Just because I have a WEIRD sense of humour.... after all the argument and analysis and centuries of debate over the meaning of revelation.... I'd laugh VERY hard if I got to heaven one day, and God said "you silly humans. You read WAAAAAY too much into dreams and visions! It was just a DREAM!" :lol: (now, many would say "it has meaning!!" -- and it probably does. But I'm not a good dream interpreter, so I'll leave that to others who can do it well.)

No it wasn't a typo...cause two hundred years ago people were barely making this land a nation...We became a nation in 1776...with only a few states in it at that point...far from being what we are today. So I was just saying I wonder what Christians were thinking at that time in regards to which nations were in Revelation then? I kind of doubt those living in the US then would be talking like the people now living in the US in regards to Revelation.


I'm perfectly okay with not analyzing everything to bits, honestly. I don't need to know which nations will rise and fall and who'll be involved in 'the last days'. I only know that only those who are with God will be saved. And that's why we need to get out there and tell people about Him.

Yea, I agree! I guess that leads me to my next question...why do those NOT living in the US seem so very unconcerned with Revelation or who the players are in it compared to those that live in the US? I see very few from other countries posting on the end times forum here and I wonder why?

Do they not push the drama of the end times there in their churches or bookstores like they do here? :hmm: I am just surprised at the very causal outlook of the end times people have from countries outside the US....

The only thing I can think of it you all aren't bombarded with sermons, book sells, etc like we are here.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:01 PM
I wonder what Christians were thinking at that time in regards to which nations were in Revelation then?Well, I'm not certain about Premillennialists of the time, but I know that Amillennialism was much more prevalent than it is today, no doubt because people had such a hard time envisioning Revelation being fulfilled literally.

Noblesurvey
Oct 28th 2008, 03:10 PM
Yea, I agree! I guess that leads me to my next question...why do those NOT living in the US seem so very unconcerned with Revelation or who the players are in it compared to those that live in the US? I see very few from other countries posting on the end times forum here and I wonder why?

Do they not push the drama of the end times there in their churches or bookstores like they do here? :hmm: I am just surprised at the very causal outlook of the end times people have from countries outside the US....

The only thing I can think of it you all aren't bombarded with sermons, book sells, etc like we are here.

God bless

Maybe we just dont think we are that important, I mean when a nation
is or perhaps has been the most influencial and prosperous nation for quite some time it is somewhat natural for its people to think that they will have the same kind of influence until the end of time as we know it.

Unfortunately, and I do think that it will be unfortunate, I don't think that the US will remain as dominant as it has been for very much longer. Great civilisations throughout history have rarely lasted more than 2-3 hundred years and it does appear (only in my opinion) that power will be shifting away from the US in the short to mid term future. The economy of the US has traditionally been it's strength, but (and I dont say this just because of recent events) I think that it will be overtaken by the likes of China and India with their massive populations.

All I have to do is go to the shops to see evidence of this with all the "made in china" stickers everywhere! LOL

God Bless;)

teddyv
Oct 28th 2008, 03:13 PM
No it wasn't a typo...cause two hundred years ago people were barely making this land a nation...We became a nation in 1776...with only a few states in it at that point...far from being what we are today. So I was just saying I wonder what Christians were thinking at that time in regards to which nations were in Revelation then? I kind of doubt those living in the US then would be talking like the people now living in the US in regards to Revelation.


Yea, I agree! I guess that leads me to my next question...why do those NOT living in the US seem so very unconcerned with Revelation or who the players are in it compared to those that live in the US? I see very few from other countries posting on the end times forum here and I wonder why?

Do they not push the drama of the end times there in their churches or bookstores like they do here? :hmm: I am just surprised at the very causal outlook of the end times people have from countries outside the US....

The only thing I can think of it you all aren't bombarded with sermons, book sells, etc like we are here.

God bless
My father-in-law once explained to me that a difference in the religious culture between Canada and the US is tied to the fact the US was born out of revolution, whereas Canada is more-or-less a continuation of the European model. Perhaps it's tied to Americans being more mistrustful of authority and therefore feel they need to figure out things on their own, or within smaller groups. This could lead to a wider variety of beliefs. Canadians as a whole are far more compliant with authority.

I'm pretty much thinking "out loud" at this point and maybe someone with a better grasp of history can either refute my ideas or better elucidate them.:)

daughter
Oct 28th 2008, 03:42 PM
I have heard so many sermons given (by American preachers mostly) that also include American in some fashion in the end times. China and Russia are always the bad guys...the million soldiers evil army too. (I truly wish someone from those countries could post..image their take on this! They may see them as the good guys and American as the evil one in Revelation!! Talk about a turn around!) Those countries get picked due to population size...big enough to man an army that size and because they have always been deemed evil and bad due to how they treat other nations...(though many nations think American is evil and bad due to how they treat other nations!)

American is rarely seen even by Americans as being good in any of Revelations...due to our many sins...which we are sinful...but so it every other country! They just think we are so important..even in a bad way, that we must be in there somewhere! So yea I have heard this take too on things.

God bless
Well, interestingly enough... I can think of a slight example of the turn around you mention above. I've noticed that the more popular US endtime preachers tend to characterise Europe as the place where antiChrist will rise from, they look at the EU as the birth place of the one world government, etc etc etc...

But I know a lot of folks over here who imagine that the US is actually Babylon, and will be the centre of the one world government. (Despite the fact that Babylon was nowhere near the US.)

I think neither view is correct, but that we'll find out in God's own good time what's going on. And we'll probably all be surprised.

Anyway, to answer the questions.


Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?I don't know if we're mentioned or not. Some people think the "islands" mentioned may be the British isles. It's not at all clear, and I don't think matters much.


Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?I don't think that Ireland is going to be wiped out before the end of the world, I think we're so teeny that we'll be overlooked!


Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?Ireland? Are you kidding? I really don't think it's terribly likely somehow. Can you imagine an Irish Bond type villain trying to take over the world? He'd get bored and decide to head down the pub for a sing along. "Ach, I can't be bothered. Anyone fancy a guiness?"


List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.
Seriously, because we're too little to have much bearing on it.

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 03:46 PM
Well, I'm not certain about Premillennialists of the time, but I know that Amillennialism was much more prevalent than it is today, no doubt because people had such a hard time envisioning Revelation being fulfilled literally.

:hmm: I went and looked up the definition of Amillennialism again cause I can never keep all of these labels straight...I decided I must be Amill...:lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism
Amillennialism (Latin: a- "not" + mille "thousand" + annum "year") is a view in Christian eschatology named for its denial of a future, thousand-year, physical reign of Jesus Christ on the earth, as opposed to the premillennial and some postmillennial views of the Book of Revelation, chapter 20. By contrast, the amillennial view holds that the number of years in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the church age (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 — see Preterism); and that while Christ's reign is spiritual in nature during the millennium, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish permanent physical reign.

Amillennialism teaches that the Kingdom of God will not be physically established on earth throughout the "millennium", but rather

* that Jesus is presently reigning from heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father,
* that Jesus also is and will remain with the church until the end of the world, as he promised at the Ascension,
* that at Pentecost, the millennium began, as is shown by Peter using the prophecies of Joel, about the coming of the kingdom, to explain what was happening,
* and that, therefore the church and its spread of the good news is Christ's kingdom.

Amillennialists cite scripture references to the kingdom not being a physical realm: Matthew 12:28, where Jesus cites his driving out of demons as evidence that the kingdom of God had come upon them; Luke 17:20-21, where Jesus warns that the coming of the kingdom of God can not be observed, and that it is among them; and Romans 14:17, where Paul speaks of the kingdom of God being in terms of the Christians' actions.

Amillennialism also teaches that the binding of Satan described in Revelation has already occurred; he has been prevented from "deceiving the nations" by preventing the spread of the gospel. This is the only binding he will suffer in history: the forces of Satan will not be gradually pushed back by the Kingdom of God as history progresses but will remain just as active as always up until the second coming of Christ, and therefore good and evil will remain mixed in strength throughout history and even in the church, according to the amillennial understanding of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares.

Amillennialism is sometimes associated with Idealism as both teach a symbolic interpretation of many of the prophecies of the Bible and especially the Book of Revelation. However, many amillennialists do believe in the literal fulfillment of Biblical prophecies; they simply disagree with Millennialists about how or when these prophecies will be fulfilled.

I never heard of anyone ever thinking the church age ended with the destruction of Jerusalem...that doesn't even make sense...:hmm: The early church had barely begun! But the rest of it reflects my views very well.

Oh and it goes on to say this about what the early Christians believed:

In general, however, premillennialism appeared in the available writings of the early church but it was evident that both views existed side by side. The premillennial beliefs of the early church fathers, however, are quite different from the dominant form of modern-day premillennialism, namely dispensational premillennialism

God bless

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 03:54 PM
Maybe we just dont think we are that important, I mean when a nation
is or perhaps has been the most influencial and prosperous nation for quite some time it is somewhat natural for its people to think that they will have the same kind of influence until the end of time as we know it.

Unfortunately, and I do think that it will be unfortunate, I don't think that the US will remain as dominant as it has been for very much longer. Great civilisations throughout history have rarely lasted more than 2-3 hundred years and it does appear (only in my opinion) that power will be shifting away from the US in the short to mid term future. The economy of the US has traditionally been it's strength, but (and I dont say this just because of recent events) I think that it will be overtaken by the likes of China and India with their massive populations.

All I have to do is go to the shops to see evidence of this with all the "made in china" stickers everywhere! LOL

God Bless;)

so you have the 'made in China' stickers on everything there too, uh? Oh my...:rolleyes: Yes the world is being taken over by the Chinese!

You made some good points though...it may simply be we don't really change much, but are weaker in our miltary and economics and other nations become more powerful. This is very possible. Now many third world countries are making such huge advances they are no longer consider poor third world countries...we are told become of some of these place their new and high demand for gas/oil caused the huge increases in price...wonder if they all cut back on driving like we did to make the prices suddenly go down?
:hmm:

(I don't believe prices went up for that reason or that half the world suddenly cut back so far on their gas/oil use that the prices are nose diving now...I think we were all be scammed..plain and simply)

Anyway that is another topic...:rolleyes: The point is many other countries are as powerful as we are now...Russia, China and India (yes surprising I India) are up there too and Russia and China could easily become more powerful in the future. And America could just be one of many no longer with any real distinction...then everyone will have to change their end time views...again...:lol:

Thanks for your post.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 04:06 PM
My father-in-law once explained to me that a difference in the religious culture between Canada and the US is tied to the fact the US was born out of revolution, whereas Canada is more-or-less a continuation of the European model. Perhaps it's tied to Americans being more mistrustful of authority and therefore feel they need to figure out things on their own, or within smaller groups. This could lead to a wider variety of beliefs. Canadians as a whole are far more compliant with authority.

I'm pretty much thinking "out loud" at this point and maybe someone with a better grasp of history can either refute my ideas or better elucidate them.:)

You could be on to something there actually...I guess I never thought of it that way...

I am not sure how they would influence how we view the end times...but maybe it has and we haven't realized it...something to think about for sure!

Thanks!


daughter


Originally Posted by moonglow
I have heard so many sermons given (by American preachers mostly) that also include American in some fashion in the end times. China and Russia are always the bad guys...the million soldiers evil army too. (I truly wish someone from those countries could post..image their take on this! They may see them as the good guys and American as the evil one in Revelation!! Talk about a turn around!) Those countries get picked due to population size...big enough to man an army that size and because they have always been deemed evil and bad due to how they treat other nations...(though many nations think American is evil and bad due to how they treat other nations!)

American is rarely seen even by Americans as being good in any of Revelations...due to our many sins...which we are sinful...but so it every other country! They just think we are so important..even in a bad way, that we must be in there somewhere! So yea I have heard this take too on things.

God bless
Well, interestingly enough... I can think of a slight example of the turn around you mention above. I've noticed that the more popular US endtime preachers tend to characterise Europe as the place where antiChrist will rise from, they look at the EU as the birth place of the one world government, etc etc etc...

But I know a lot of folks over here who imagine that the US is actually Babylon, and will be the centre of the one world government. (Despite the fact that Babylon was nowhere near the US.)

I think neither view is correct, but that we'll find out in God's own good time what's going on. And we'll probably all be surprised.

Anyway, to answer the questions.



Are you concerned that your country or nation is not mentioned in the bible..especially in regards to the passages on the end times?
I don't know if we're mentioned or not. Some people think the "islands" mentioned may be the British isles. It's not at all clear, and I don't think matters much.



Do you think that could mean your nation or country is wiped out before these events?
I don't think that Ireland is going to be wiped out before the end of the world, I think we're so teeny that we'll be overlooked!



Or do you think your nation or country could be the Babylon mentioned in Revelation and if so, why?
Ireland? Are you kidding? I really don't think it's terribly likely somehow. Can you imagine an Irish Bond type villain trying to take over the world? He'd get bored and decide to head down the pub for a sing along. "Ach, I can't be bothered. Anyone fancy a guiness?"



List any other reasons you think your country may not be mentioned in the bible or end time passages.
Seriously, because we're too little to have much bearing on it.

Ok thanks daughter for that! Some of your comments were pretty funny...lol.

So it seems people go by size and might of their countries more then anything as to whether their country is a major player in the end times...

yet...Jerusalem is very tiny! :hmm: And its a major player all through the NT...lol.

:hmm:

Thanks!

God bless

brakelite
Oct 29th 2008, 12:09 AM
Let us face some very relevant facts.
1. Beasts in prophecy represent empires. One brief look at Daniel will confirm this.
2. The nation/beasts of Daniel all arose from the sea. The sea in prophecy represents a populated area. (Rev 17:15). The nations of Daniel all rose in the center of civilisation of the time - middle east and Europe.
3. The second beast odf Revel 13 rose up out of the earth. Thus one can safely assume that this nation rises out of an area that is sparcely populated.
4. This nation has two horns like a lamb. Immediately one is brought to recognise 2 things. A young nation, thus it does not come from somewhere else and take over from another like the predatory beasts of Daniel. And secondly, one is reminded of the innocence of a lamb, particularly of Christ. Thus this nation is established upon Christian principles.
5. The horns, unlike other beasts, have no crowns. Thus there is no king so it must be established on democratic principles and be a republic.
6. In it's development as a nation it has global power and authority and thus becomes a super-power.
7. It rises at the time of the decline of the first beast, the papacy, which occurred in the mid to late 18th century.

In summary, you have a nation that rose in a relatively unpopulated area toward the end of the 18th century, founded on Christian principles, is a democracy and becomes a world superpower. Doesn't leave too many options does it?

Sadly,it's religious convictions are so strong it takes upon itself the task of enforcing worship upon the world and allegiance to the first beast, by establishing the mark of the beast.

Could it be that so many are deceived by this beast/ nation because they fail to recognise it? And in not recognising it might they end up supporting it????!!!!

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 01:27 AM
Let us face some very relevant facts.
1. Beasts in prophecy represent empires. One brief look at Daniel will confirm this.
2. The nation/beasts of Daniel all arose from the sea. The sea in prophecy represents a populated area. (Rev 17:15). The nations of Daniel all rose in the center of civilisation of the time - middle east and Europe.
3. The second beast odf Revel 13 rose up out of the earth. Thus one can safely assume that this nation rises out of an area that is sparcely populated.
4. This nation has two horns like a lamb. Immediately one is brought to recognise 2 things. A young nation, thus it does not come from somewhere else and take over from another like the predatory beasts of Daniel. And secondly, one is reminded of the innocence of a lamb, particularly of Christ. Thus this nation is established upon Christian principles.
5. The horns, unlike other beasts, have no crowns. Thus there is no king so it must be established on democratic principles and be a republic.
6. In it's development as a nation it has global power and authority and thus becomes a super-power.
7. It rises at the time of the decline of the first beast, the papacy, which occurred in the mid to late 18th century.

In summary, you have a nation that rose in a relatively unpopulated area toward the end of the 18th century, founded on Christian principles, is a democracy and becomes a world superpower. Doesn't leave too many options does it?

Sadly,it's religious convictions are so strong it takes upon itself the task of enforcing worship upon the world and allegiance to the first beast, by establishing the mark of the beast.

Could it be that so many are deceived by this beast/ nation because they fail to recognise it? And in not recognising it might they end up supporting it????!!!!I notice that you're assuming the first beast is the papacy, which is becoming increasingly apparent among believers to be an outdated, erroneous theory.

The "sea" at the division between Revelation 12-13 is representative of Gentiles, as we see in these two verses:

Isaiah 17:12-13
12 Woe to the many nations that rage — they rage like the raging sea! Woe to the peoples who roar — they roar like the roaring of great waters! 13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters, when he rebukes them they flee far away, driven before the wind like chaff on the hills, like tumbleweed before a gale.

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

By contrast with the sea representing Gentiles, the land from which the 2nd beast arises would conversely be Israel, Jews being the opposite of Gentiles.

Notice also that these two beasts are contemporary with each other. In Revelation 19, they are both thrown into the Lake of Fire at the same time, so the conclusion that one comes up upon the decline of the other would not fit with that statement. They must both be active together for Christ to punish them both together.

In addition, you are correct in pointing out that Daniel's visions have to do with the Middle East, since that's where he had his visions, but to include Europe in that is an unfounded supposition. We are given nothing in Daniel to point to any other continent or land area outside of where Daniel lived, specifically around Babylon and Susa.

Let's quit trying to find the USA in prophecy and just let the prophecies speak for themselves.

iyulchik
Oct 29th 2008, 06:29 PM
Let us face some very relevant facts.
1. Beasts in prophecy represent empires. One brief look at Daniel will confirm this.
2. The nation/beasts of Daniel all arose from the sea. The sea in prophecy represents a populated area. (Rev 17:15). The nations of Daniel all rose in the center of civilisation of the time - middle east and Europe.
3. The second beast odf Revel 13 rose up out of the earth. Thus one can safely assume that this nation rises out of an area that is sparcely populated.
4. This nation has two horns like a lamb. Immediately one is brought to recognise 2 things. A young nation, thus it does not come from somewhere else and take over from another like the predatory beasts of Daniel. And secondly, one is reminded of the innocence of a lamb, particularly of Christ. Thus this nation is established upon Christian principles.
5. The horns, unlike other beasts, have no crowns. Thus there is no king so it must be established on democratic principles and be a republic.
6. In it's development as a nation it has global power and authority and thus becomes a super-power.
7. It rises at the time of the decline of the first beast, the papacy, which occurred in the mid to late 18th century.

In summary, you have a nation that rose in a relatively unpopulated area toward the end of the 18th century, founded on Christian principles, is a democracy and becomes a world superpower. Doesn't leave too many options does it?

Sadly,it's religious convictions are so strong it takes upon itself the task of enforcing worship upon the world and allegiance to the first beast, by establishing the mark of the beast.

Could it be that so many are deceived by this beast/ nation because they fail to recognise it? And in not recognising it might they end up supporting it????!!!!

Ok, I'm from America, but now I live in Ukraine. Do I count? :)

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I believe the papacy is the 1st beast and the US is the 2nd beast. I agree with what the post after (?) this said (sorry! I can't remember exactly who or what they said word-for-word) by saying that the two have to be powers at the same time. Right now, they're not. But I believe they will be.

14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
-Revelation 13:14-17

The first beast was wounded - the papacy lost its' power. The first beast lived - the papacy still exists today, though is still recovering from its' wound. But it's gaining power.
Call me crazy, but this is what I believe will happen:
The world is going to push to be more united (well, this is happening now). They are going to say that we need to do something to "appease" God (for lack of better wording). They will say that the increase in numbers and intensity of natural disasters are signs that God is angry. They will decide that one of the things we can do to stay God's anger is to stop desecrating "the Lord's Day," which they claim to be Sunday. The Catholic Church "changed" the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday a long time ago (although a lot of people, including myself, keep Sabbath on Saturday). Starting in America, they will start to enforce laws to worship on Sunday. That will show unity between America and the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church's influence and power will grow until she is again the top ruler. By worshiping on Sunday, people are showing (and will show) their alliance with the Catholic Church and its' traditions.

I believe more will happen after that, but that is where the relevancy to this post ends. As the Catholic Church grows and unites with America, the two will be in power together, and thus, will be punished together.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 06:36 PM
Ok, I'm from America, but now I live in Ukraine. Do I count? :)

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I believe the papacy is the 1st beast and the US is the 2nd beast. I agree with what the post after (?) this said (sorry! I can't remember exactly who or what they said word-for-word) by saying that the two have to be powers at the same time. Right now, they're not. But I believe they will be.

14Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
-Revelation 13:14-17

The first beast was wounded - the papacy lost its' power. The first beast lived - the papacy still exists today, though is still recovering from its' wound. But it's gaining power.
Call me crazy, but this is what I believe will happen:
The world is going to push to be more united (well, this is happening now). They are going to say that we need to do something to "appease" God (for lack of better wording). They will say that the increase in numbers and intensity of natural disasters are signs that God is angry. They will decide that one of the things we can do to stay God's anger is to stop desecrating "the Lord's Day," which they claim to be Sunday. The Catholic Church "changed" the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday a long time ago (although a lot of people, including myself, keep Sabbath on Saturday). Starting in America, they will start to enforce laws to worship on Sunday. That will show unity between America and the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church's influence and power will grow until she is again the top ruler. By worshiping on Sunday, people are showing (and will show) their alliance with the Catholic Church and its' traditions.

I believe more will happen after that, but that is where the relevancy to this post ends. As the Catholic Church grows and unites with America, the two will be in power together, and thus, will be punished together.How do you figure Islam fits in? I mean, you know as well as I do that no good Muslim is going to worship this sort of thing. Yet the Bible says that all non-believers will go along with it, so how do the Muslims fit in?

iyulchik
Oct 29th 2008, 06:47 PM
How do you figure Islam fits in? I mean, you know as well as I do that no good Muslim is going to worship this sort of thing. Yet the Bible says that all non-believers will go along with it, so how do the Muslims fit in?

Not 100% sure. Honestly hadn't thought of them specifically. Throwing the Muslims into the mix doesn't change what I believe, but it's a good thing for me to think about.
It's impossible to win over the whole world at one time. At the moment I'm reading, well, a few moments ago I WAS reading and in a few moments I'll go back to reading, an interview with George Bush about the pope (http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=5485). I haven't finished reading it, so I don't know exactly what's there, but it makes me sick. The ties are growing between the US and the papacy, and I believe they will strengthen. I believe the Sunday laws will begin in America, and then seep out into the rest of the world. It won't happen in a day, but I think it will happen. I think people will "see the need to unite" and be drawn into the false statement that "united we stand." Many people may resist it, but then they may think that it's better to conform and "save themselves" than to stick with what they believed before and be "lost." Dunno. Just a beginning thought. I'll give it some more and let you know if I think of anything. :) Thanks for the question, though!

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 06:52 PM
Not 100% sure. Honestly hadn't thought of them specifically. Throwing the Muslims into the mix doesn't change what I believe, but it's a good thing for me to think about.
It's impossible to win over the whole world at one time. At the moment I'm reading, well, a few moments ago I WAS reading and in a few moments I'll go back to reading, an interview with George Bush about the pope (http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=5485). I haven't finished reading it, so I don't know exactly what's there, but it makes me sick. The ties are growing between the US and the papacy, and I believe they will strengthen. I believe the Sunday laws will begin in America, and then seep out into the rest of the world. It won't happen in a day, but I think it will happen. I think people will "see the need to unite" and be drawn into the false statement that "united we stand." Many people may resist it, but then they may think that it's better to conform and "save themselves" than to stick with what they believed before and be "lost." Dunno. Just a beginning thought. I'll give it some more and let you know if I think of anything. :) Thanks for the question, though!If you have the time to read it, I'd be curious to know what you think about this.

Saved!
Oct 29th 2008, 09:57 PM
Just my :2cents:...I hope that those that have never visited America or have not known plenty of regular ol' Americans do not confuse the government with the people.

I have never personally known a politian. No one I know has ever had enough money or backing to run for office!!! Plus, some that may have been able to raise enough money felt that the system was crooked and wanted no part of it.

However, for the most part, I love the American people.....plain folks!

We are basically kind......good people. Plus we can be ultra-Patriotic if any of us are harmed or in harm's way.

And......when others throughout the world go through hard times-there we are right away to help!!!! and often at our own, personal expense.

I know that the media is often one sided (duh)......but I can't think of many times where the world rushed in to help us during catastrophes.

I am soooo saddened when I see images on TV of other nations feeling that we get what we deserve.

Yep...America has some evil folks...from the sole individual in a little town to the biggest fellas in politics. But, I'd say most of us "ain't so bad."

But, folks, America sure hasn't cornered the market on sin!!! I can think of example after example of horrific sins and terrible-unspeakable-crimes against humanity that go on around this world every day...in lots of countries that can't hold a candle to what America is guilty of. Not that we are excused because of this...but why, oh why, does the world say "Shame on us" and ignore the happenings elsewhere?

I am not proud of everything America or Americans do....but I thank God that he chose to place me in this country. I do so love my fellow countrymen!

Before I am thought to be America-centric....I work in a school system that is 80 percent Hispanic (From several Latin American locations). I choose to work there. I LOVE those children..I LOVE those families. I won't go into all the reasons why here. But, suffice it to say.......I have a big heart and love all my Christian brothers and sisters and wish to see the lost ones saved and all of us get to heaven-no matter their country of origin!

Dani H
Oct 29th 2008, 11:54 PM
I'm an idealistic amillenialist.

Woo.

:)

brakelite
Oct 30th 2008, 12:40 AM
I notice that you're assuming the first beast is the papacy, which is becoming increasingly apparent among believers to be an outdated, erroneous theory.
No assumption necessary. I could give you over a dozen different reasons, all from the bible, why the first beast is the papacy. The only reason it's become outdated is that the papacy herself has done such a brilliant con-job on the Christian world and got everyone believing she has changed, and no longer the threat that the reformers all recognised. And what's more, got everyone looking to the furture, when she is sitting right there under your noses and about to chop them off.


The "sea" at the division between Revelation 12-13 is representative of Gentiles, as we see in these two verses:

Isaiah 17:12-13
12 Woe to the many nations that rage — they rage like the raging sea! Woe to the peoples who roar — they roar like the roaring of great waters! 13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters, when he rebukes them they flee far away, driven before the wind like chaff on the hills, like tumbleweed before a gale.

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

By contrast with the sea representing Gentiles, the land from which the 2nd beast arises would conversely be Israel, Jews being the opposite of Gentiles.
I have used the exact same verses to show the contrast between populated and sparcely populated. But modern day futurists have got their eyes so fixed on Israel they are blind to everything else. NT prophecies that refer to Israel refer to the church, spiritual Israel. The antichrist does not rise to power withing Israel. He has already risen to power within the church. The false prophet does not rise up within Israel, he will prophecy within the church. Satan does not wage war with Israel, he wages war with the woman, (the church) and the remnant of her seed, the end-time church. Satan doesn't give a toss about Israel, it is no threat to him or his purposes. His enemy is a God-fearing Spirit filled evangelical people who are preaching the everlasting gospel and calling people to fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgement is come. They will then also be warning the world of the false doctrines of Babylon, the apostate Christian church (not a revived city or state) made up of predominantly RCC and her protestant children and likely the rest of the world joining in because of fear possibly. Israel, the nation, is not doing this, but the church is. (Or at least some of them).


Notice also that these two beasts are contemporary with each other. In Revelation 19, they are both thrown into the Lake of Fire at the same time, so the conclusion that one comes up upon the decline of the other would not fit with that statement. They must both be active together for Christ to punish them both together.
With this I agree, and so does Rev 13. The second beast (USA), leads the protestant world back to their former allegiance to the first beast, the RCC. Just as iyulchik described. They are indeed contemporary at the end. The RCC was mortally wounded in 1798 when Gen. Berthier entered Rome at Napoleon's command, took the pope captive, disbanded the college of cardinals, and nationalised all the papal states and declared Rome a republic. All political commentaters of the period considered that the secular power of the RCC was finished forever. Thus the traditional nature of the RCC, the church state union, was considered dead and dusted. It was at that time that the USA was rising to power. Perfect timing. In 1929 the papacy was given back her secular power when Mussolini gifted the Vatican city. Today, it is not far off when all can honestly admit that "all the world wonders after the beast".


In addition, you are correct in pointing out that Daniel's visions have to do with the Middle East, since that's where he had his visions, but to include Europe in that is an unfounded supposition. We are given nothing in Daniel to point to any other continent or land area outside of where Daniel lived, specifically around Babylon and Susa.
Geography has nothing to do with whether or not a nation was included in prophecy. God doesn't care about such trifles. The common factor with regard to all the nations in prophecy, including the secular/church state of the RCC and the USA, is that they all, without exception, were major players in the lives of God's people. Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and pagan Rome with regards to the nation of Israel in the OT, and the continuation of Rome, first pagan then papal, and the USA in the lives of the NT church. Read my post regarding the woman in the thread Rev 12:1 and you will understand the significance.


Let's quit trying to find the USA in prophecy and just let the prophecies speak for themselves.
I don't have to try and make the USA fit the prophecy. She has done sufficiently well by herself without my help.