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View Full Version : Ex-christian - is there such a thing ?



markinro
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:45 PM
I may as well start this off.

When people say, "I used to be a christian" - I doubt they were ever a christian to start. We're not talking about people who backslide or "a sin which easily besets". This is about those who completely reject christianity - return to their former life of sin and disobedience - practically becoming an atheist.

Can this REALLY happen ? What say you ? (yes, that's a reference to Lord of the Rings)

Athanasius
Oct 23rd 2008, 06:54 PM
I say: yes. Because it's far too easy to say, "They were never Christian to begin with" when I've seen it happen multiple times from people were very much spiritually alive.

markinro
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:10 PM
I say: yes. Because it's far too easy to say, "They were never Christian to begin with" when I've seen it happen multiple times from people were very much spiritually alive.

I remember when I first read HEB 6 (4?). That terrified me because I thought the slightest little slip...then I heard a teacher put it in context saying it refers to someone who rejects Christ so completely, it would require Him to die on the cross again. Some say this is not possible today but I wonder what's different from the time this verse was written and today ?

Just like many churches with altar calls, the "rededication". For me these are people who Paul spoke of the sin that so easily besets.

I've never met an ex-christian myself -- maybe I have and didn't know.

Ta-An
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:13 PM
Can this REALLY happen ? What say you ? yes, it can.... :cry:

I had a friend,,,, past tense as he withdrew completely when he chose this ex-Christian status :(
This friend taught me about worship, how to worship in spirit and in truth....
.... and then one day he just said to me.... I no longer can say "No" to this old behavior that stands knocking at my door.... and because he knew what it meant to be a Christian, he chose the ex~ status :cry:

So, yes, sadly it does happen.

I also find that people say: Christianity is but one of many 'religions' and since we have been introduced to them,,,, choose to believe differently and thus became ex~ :cry:

Unfortunately I believe that Christians will have a LOT to answer for those we have pushed away from Christianity ..... living under the banner of being a Christian, but not bearing the fruit of one... some people become ex~ because of the treatment by Christians..

Others, can not abide by the responsibility of being a Christian, living the life expected of a Christian, and then rather choose to be an ex~... cause it gives them the freedom to live a life of sin,,,

So basically people who knows the 'rules' of being a Christian, but feel they can not live up to them..... and decide then to rather not say that they are Christian ...so that they can live a life of sin without feeling guilty for it... :cry:

KATA_LOUKAN
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:39 PM
Can this REALLY happen ? What say you ? (yes, that's a reference to Lord of the Rings)

It is actually estimated that anywhere between 50%-90% of people who become Christian (i.e. have a born again experience) fall away (I think Barna even did some research).

Most of my friends became Christians while they were young, believed but gradually fell away. Some people become Christian when it is easy, and when forced to experience the difficult parts of being a Christian just left because it caused them to leave their comfort zone.

9Marksfan
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:44 PM
Why are we so cconvinced that people who are now ex-Christians WERE really saved in nthe first place? Don't you think all the other disciples felt Judas was one of them? They ALL said at the last supper "Is it I?" - NO ONE said "Is it him?" He appeared to all intents and purposes to have been a true disciple - he even preached the gospel with the others and was involved in "deliverance ministry" - yet all the time he was a devil...

Ta-An
Oct 23rd 2008, 07:57 PM
.. yet all the time he was a devil...Nope, not all the time :oLk 22:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Only at at a later time did Satan take hold of him....

daughter
Oct 23rd 2008, 08:43 PM
I must admit this scares the pants off me. I don't think I know any "ex Christians." When I was a witch I would have classed myself as an "ex Christian", although I'd never been born again, and had no idea what that meant.

But when I hear people talking about folks who love God falling away, folks who were definitely born again straying, I worry, for myself and for my son.

Then I think... hang on... my salvation isn't about me, it's about GOD, and my fears don't bring glory to Him, they just make me distrust Him. The devil simply wants me to be afraid.

So... I voted no, it's impossible to be an "ex" Christian. I may be wrong. But I sincerely hope not. Because my own strength would leave me dead in a ditch. I have to trust that He meant it when He said, "I am with you always, even till the end of the world."

9Marksfan
Oct 23rd 2008, 09:09 PM
Nope, not all the time :oLk 22:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Only at at a later time did Satan take hold of him....

I was thinking more of this verse, which happened much earlier on in Jesus' ministry

Jesus answered them and said "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" Jn 6:70 NKJV

Bethany67
Oct 24th 2008, 06:47 AM
Yes I'd say it was possible. In the Pagan world I've encountered many many people who call themselves ex-Christians, and in fact described myself as the same. Some of them I suspect were never born again, but some were, and I was. I vehemently described myself as an ex-Christian. I absolutely hated Jesus with a vitriol that astonishes me now, but I had become bitter with Him and eventually walked away. I never ever thought I would come back, but He called me back. So please don't be quick to decide no 'exes' ever had a relationship with Jesus; that isn't true.

While I was still a Pagan, I encountered two evangelistic approaches from Christians. The first decided I had never been a Christian, and that infuriated me because it simply wasn't true. The second effective one took the approach 'You used to run so well; what hindered you?' It was this second approach which helped me really examine what had gone wrong, and it was done with a lot of love and patience and challenge. It bore fruit in my case.

Think of the Prodigal Son; the father never said 'I refuse to let you leave.' He allowed the prodigal son his freedom until after a period of time his eyes were opened and he remembered where he had come from. In my case it took 8 years, and in all that time I was an ex-Christian; I wasn't a backslidden Christian. As to where I'd've ended up if I'd died during that time - it was Jesus speaking to me that eventually brought me back, but He didn't speak words of comfort. They were a stern judgement and a warning to me in the midst of a coven ritual. I have to consider the possibility that I would've gone to Hell because He spoke of my choosing to go to a place where I would never be able to hear Him. I think there reaches a point where one's heart is so hardened that repentance is not a possibility, and undergoing initiation in the coven would've been that crossing-line for me personally, because an entity had just expressed interest in being invoked into me. If you stare into the abyss, something stares back.

I don't fear falling away again because my experiences have shown me the sheer power of grace (I don't mean by that a cavalier attitude, simply that I rely on Him because I know my own tendencies and it is He who impels me to follow Him). God's much more clever and patient than I am, and His timing is perfect. I've lived consciously without Jesus but with memories of Him, and it's not a place I intend to go to again because there is no peace for an ex-Christian. Something has changed in them by virtue of having been born again, and they walk around with an awareness of a wound that will never heal unless they come back.

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 08:00 AM
I don't understand the truth behind this; but it grieves me when people come to CA and declare that they were a Christian and now are not. Yet there seems to be something in them that longs to come back.

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 08:21 AM
I don't understand the truth behind this; but it grieves me when people come to CA and declare that they were a Christian and now are not. Yet there seems to be something in them that longs to come back.

I think Bethany67's testimony is an excellent example of the experience of a true child of God who has rejected the faith for a while - I know of at least one other person on these boards who has had the same experience and know of others in my life too. However, as one preacher explained to a group of us about 20 years ago, whether someone has never been saved, is backslidden or has decided to give up - the remedy is the same for all - repent and come back to the cross!

Elouise
Oct 24th 2008, 02:08 PM
When I was an occultist I have meet a few who have left Christ; most have done so because they see the behaviour of the church and in rejecting that they also reject Christ.
This group seem to carry the pain of grief. They tend to use the braodest vernicular language to describe the church but often stay short of using the same language to describe Christ.
A far smaller group simply find the teaching of Christ to be anethema to living how they want and they place themselves where God should be in there hearts and they do not care.

Whilst both small groups live and breathe Grace is there if they are willing to turn to Him.

Firefighter
Oct 24th 2008, 03:06 PM
If there is not such a thing, you are going to have a hard time with "Apostasy" in the scriptures...

9Marksfan
Oct 24th 2008, 05:26 PM
If there is not such a thing, you are going to have a hard time with "Apostasy" in the scriptures...

Apostast is a turning away from holding to the faith intellectually - it's entirely possible for someone to be thoroughly orthodox in their beliefs - and yet still be spiritually dead. If so, they will likely apostasise at some stage - if not, faith without works is dead.

RoadWarrior
Oct 24th 2008, 05:48 PM
I think Bethany67's testimony is an excellent example of the experience of a true child of God who has rejected the faith for a while - I know of at least one other person on these boards who has had the same experience and know of others in my life too. However, as one preacher explained to a group of us about 20 years ago, whether someone has never been saved, is backslidden or has decided to give up - the remedy is the same for all - repent and come back to the cross!

Hear, hear! I made it blue to stand out.

I agree Nigel, I just don't fully understand it. I'm happy being that way though. I like that God is so much bigger than I am that His ways are past finding out.

If a person could not return after walking away from God, I am one of those who would not be here today.

People often walk away from God (as I did) because of the pain inflicted upon us by other Christians.

I often think of this verse when I see Christians hurting other Christians:

Lk 11:52
52 "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

holyrokker
Oct 26th 2008, 01:34 AM
I had a roommate at Bible school. We were involved in ministry together. He was an evangelist, who had a way of putting the gospel message in clear terms. We traveled much of the U.S. back in the early 1980's as part of a ministry team. He was my best man at my wedding.

He has since turned away from Christ and claims that Christianity is nothing but a scam.

Was he a "fake" Christian? At the time, nobody would've thought so. I knew him better than anyone else. I'm convinced that he had the Holy Spirit.

CoffeeCat
Oct 27th 2008, 04:50 AM
Yes, it's very, very possible for people to become "ex-Christians". While it's true that SOME may never have known Christ, it's equally true that many have known Christ and turned away. On this board, I've generally said that 'I became Christian' just under 4 years ago. I've said that, more or less, to avoid confusion and a long story. But I have a story that bears repeating.

I came to Christ when I was 15. I'd given my heart to Him, started walking with Him, was 'born again' in every sense of the word.... and a couple years later, I walked away from it. Totally. I fully considered myself an atheist and a secular humanist for nearly two years. I called myself, and was, an "ex-Christian". And not only have I been one, but I've known others who most CERTAINLY were Christ's and who turned completely away. An old friend of mine was actually the one who was my mentor and who had brought me to faith.... and he gave it all up and walked away from the faith totally. It's horribly, horribly possible.

Here's the thing, though. It's an absolute belief I have: once Christ has us, He NEVER lets us go. He keeps calling us, wanting us to return... from the day we turn our back on Him to the day we take our last breath. He gives us SO many chances to return to Him willingly. The whole time I was away, in utter unbelief.... I was reminded of faith again... and again... and some part of me desperately wanted it again. It took a LONG time to try and make that leap back because I was my own worst enemy and wouldn't allow myself to see the forest for the trees.

When I came back to faith just under 4 years ago, it was really a coming TO faith, in a way... it was an adult faith, and it had changed in the two years I'd been away from it. But it was still the same Christ I used to know, and was I EVER glad to return.

In weak moments... I still struggle with that rational side of me, the side that thought humanism made perfect sense.... but it's something Christ's helped me overcome. He brought me back, and I'm His to keep.

So.... yes.... it's possible to be an ex-Christian. But it's a FACT that we have a merciful Lord who calls us back to Him every day of our lives, whether we try hard to ignore it or finally give in to His call.

ilovemetal
Oct 27th 2008, 06:12 AM
i just don't know. i can speak for myself that i could never leave the truth that i know now for something else. so i'm going with they wern't a Christian to begin with vote.

i guess, like my testimony might say, i thought i was christian my whole life, until i found out what it really meant only a year ago.. but in the end, i can't say where anyone is at with God, only myself. i guess, someone can think they're Christian, and fully think they're rebelling, but i would say the effort deep down could have been for selfish motivs. wanting to be 'good' because it's what to be expected of someone with that title, but in reality, we must actually strive and want and long to be like Jesus.

i don't know. i got transformed, so for me, i couldn't ever be an ex-Christian.

9Marksfan
Oct 27th 2008, 10:34 AM
Yes, it's very, very possible for people to become "ex-Christians". While it's true that SOME may never have known Christ, it's equally true that many have known Christ and turned away. On this board, I've generally said that 'I became Christian' just under 4 years ago. I've said that, more or less, to avoid confusion and a long story. But I have a story that bears repeating.

I came to Christ when I was 15. I'd given my heart to Him, started walking with Him, was 'born again' in every sense of the word.... and a couple years later, I walked away from it. Totally. I fully considered myself an atheist and a secular humanist for nearly two years. I called myself, and was, an "ex-Christian". And not only have I been one, but I've known others who most CERTAINLY were Christ's and who turned completely away. An old friend of mine was actually the one who was my mentor and who had brought me to faith.... and he gave it all up and walked away from the faith totally. It's horribly, horribly possible.

Here's the thing, though. It's an absolute belief I have: once Christ has us, He NEVER lets us go. He keeps calling us, wanting us to return... from the day we turn our back on Him to the day we take our last breath. He gives us SO many chances to return to Him willingly. The whole time I was away, in utter unbelief.... I was reminded of faith again... and again... and some part of me desperately wanted it again. It took a LONG time to try and make that leap back because I was my own worst enemy and wouldn't allow myself to see the forest for the trees.

When I came back to faith just under 4 years ago, it was really a coming TO faith, in a way... it was an adult faith, and it had changed in the two years I'd been away from it. But it was still the same Christ I used to know, and was I EVER glad to return.

In weak moments... I still struggle with that rational side of me, the side that thought humanism made perfect sense.... but it's something Christ's helped me overcome. He brought me back, and I'm His to keep.

So.... yes.... it's possible to be an ex-Christian. But it's a FACT that we have a merciful Lord who calls us back to Him every day of our lives, whether we try hard to ignore it or finally give in to His call.

Thanks for sharing that, Laura - I have a question though: while you were away from Christ, how do you think HE viewed you? Do you think HE ever considers that His own sheep are "ex-Christians"?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 27th 2008, 04:32 PM
Nope, not all the time :oLk 22:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Only at at a later time did Satan take hold of him....

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


It would appear that Judas was ranked among those who believe not.

As Nigel rightly points out, there are many that can appear to be Christians, and go through the motions.

They can have a form of godliness, cast out demons in His name, and do many wonderful works in His name.

I think the question is, who occupied the house after it had been swept clean

Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Luke 11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
Luke 11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Had Christ occupied the house [heart] then the unclean spirit could not have returned.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 27th 2008, 04:42 PM
I believe that while we are walking with the Lord, we are walking in His Light.
Yes we may at some point get to turn our back on Him, but His Light still shines on our back, and we walk in our own shadow.

CoffeeCat
Oct 27th 2008, 08:47 PM
Thanks for sharing that, Laura - I have a question though: while you were away from Christ, how do you think HE viewed you? Do you think HE ever considers that His own sheep are "ex-Christians"?

When I was away, I think that's exactly how He saw me -- as His, but fallen away. I didn't see myself as fallen away, I saw myself as no longer Christian.... but that was my mistake and my error and my pride-filled heart. I doubt He saw me as utterly lost and not as His anymore..... unless it's possible to lose salvation....

so yes, I see what you're getting at. "ex-Christian" is a human term that Christ wouldn't use, but its meaning -- no longer identifying with being Christ's because we fall away -- is more or less what I intended to say.

I just thank Him for always calling us back.

holyrokker
Oct 28th 2008, 06:38 PM
There may be some who acted like Christians, but really weren't

There may be some who actually were Christians, but have rejected the faith, and are no longer Christians.

There may be some now who think they are Christians, but aren't.

One thing that is true of everyone: There is no life without Christ.

Every Bible class I teach, every sermon I preach, I assume that there are some who are not Christians, and know that they aren't: they are attending for various reasons. I also assume that there are some who think they are Christians, but really aren't.

I want to do all I can, through gifts of the Holy Spirit, and in His power, to make sure that everyone in my sphere of influence understands the truth.

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 06:49 PM
Hi holyrokker - your post was really great - apart from this bit.


There may be some who actually were Christians, but have rejected the faith, and are no longer Christians.

Christ says that He will lose none of His sheep - they will never perish. And His sheep are tru Christians. How can you thn say that those who have rejected the faith were ever Christians in the first place? You allow for that in your first paragraph - why do you need to create a separate category that goes against a number of scriptures?

holyrokker
Oct 28th 2008, 06:58 PM
- why do you need to create a separate category that goes against a number of scriptures?

Because Scripture says so.
Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 07:04 PM
Because Scripture says so.

Who's to say their faith was genuine saving faith in the first place? If it was, they wouldn't have made shipwreck of it. James speaks about dead, demonic and dynamic faith. Only the last is genuine.

holyrokker
Oct 28th 2008, 11:00 PM
You are assuming something that isn't written in the text.

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 10:53 AM
You are assuming something that isn't written in the text.

No I'm not - it says "their faith" - but it's clear from the whole of the NT that there are different kinds of faith - not all faith is genuine, saving faith. That's why James says "Shall THAT faith save him?".

Actually it's debatable whether the word "their" is in the original Greek, so we may both be debating in vain - many of the most literal translations just say "the faith" or "faith" eg

YLT having faith and a good conscience, which certain having thrust away, concerning the faith did make shipwreck,

ASV holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:

NKJV having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,

KJV Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

So it is indeed apostasy that is being spoken of here - not a turning away from TRUST in Christ - but a turning away from the whole body of the Christian faith. It's entirely possible to adhere to all sound doctrine - and yet not to trust in Christ. It's entirely possible for such people to reject "the faith", as Alexander and Hynenaeus did. Yet it's interesting that Paul hands them over to Satan "to be taught not to blaspheme" - so the punsihment/discipline is intended to be RESTORATIVE, not punitive ("because they blasphemed") or a deterrent ("so that others may learn not to blaspheme") - he truly anticipated that these guys would REPENT and no longer blaspheme - but instead embrace the faith in a new, trusting way - and live to the glory of God!

Butch5
Oct 30th 2008, 04:57 PM
Apostast is a turning away from holding to the faith intellectually - it's entirely possible for someone to be thoroughly orthodox in their beliefs - and yet still be spiritually dead. If so, they will likely apostasise at some stage - if not, faith without works is dead.

Nigel,

Where in Scripture do we see the idea that apostasy means turning away for the faith intellectually? I think you are trying to fit apsotasy into your doctrine. You "CANNOT" turn from the faith, if you never were of the faith. Jesus didn't say that in the end many will intellectually fall away. He said many will fall away. What basis is there to assume that the apostasy verses speak of an intellectual falling away? Many people get creative with Scripture to try to deny the clear meaning, in order to protect the once saved always saved doctrine.

Butch5
Oct 30th 2008, 05:01 PM
Hi holyrokker - your post was really great - apart from this bit.



Christ says that He will lose none of His sheep - they will never perish. And His sheep are tru Christians. How can you thn say that those who have rejected the faith were ever Christians in the first place? You allow for that in your first paragraph - why do you need to create a separate category that goes against a number of scriptures?

Nigel, please show Scripture that says no one can be lost.

minnesotaice
Oct 31st 2008, 02:38 PM
I know somebody who was a very strong Christian and showed it in every way. Through a series of painful things in her life, she slowly drifted away and she is now not even sure that Jesus is God. Believe me, she was a Christian before.

I think staying in God's presence is a daily thing and if you don't, you are susceptible to walk away.

jesuslover1968
Oct 31st 2008, 02:52 PM
Why are we so cconvinced that people who are now ex-Christians WERE really saved in nthe first place? Don't you think all the other disciples felt Judas was one of them? They ALL said at the last supper "Is it I?" - NO ONE said "Is it him?" He appeared to all intents and purposes to have been a true disciple - he even preached the gospel with the others and was involved in "deliverance ministry" - yet all the time he was a devil...


Exactly. That is what I was going to say, but you hit the nail on the head. What people call "Christian" is not Christian.
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
I will trust God for what He says. :)
I had a friend, one who actually led me to the Lord...:) who seemed like a good Christian woman. She visited people in the hospital, handed out Bibles, helped people financially when she could, etc. She lived this life for about 5 years. And I do believe the Lord used her...and then she walked away from it. Turns out, a lot of it was for her husband...she read her Bible, but was not spiritually maturing...even being a baby Christian at the time, I remember knowing she wasn't maturing. She told me that Christians no longer sin, which I knew was an error. She began to do things little by little, until one day, she just walked away. She started smoking again, smoking pot, doing coke, crack, whatever she could find. Being promiscuous, which breaks my heart...she was my best friend. She now is living with a man she isn't married to, who is in jail, who beats her. he is an alcoholic and she is an addict. She was never saved. She found out the hard way that there is no way we can work our way to God...and I pray for her, and hope you all will pray for her too. She had "religion" not God. religion WAS her god.

jesuslover1968
Oct 31st 2008, 02:53 PM
Nigel, please show Scripture that says no one can be lost.


Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

jesuslover1968
Oct 31st 2008, 03:10 PM
Nope, not all the time :oLk 22:3 (http://bibledatabase.org/cgi-bin/bib_search/bible.cgi?BIBLE=48&BOOK=42&CHAP=22&SEARCH=jesus%20king%20lord&Read=Read&FIRST=OK&HV=3) Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Only at at a later time did Satan take hold of him....



Acts 1:14-18
14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. 15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.


Yeah, judas was a bad apple from the beginning...

Matthew 7:16-22



16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Judas was a prime example of the above.

9Marksfan
Oct 31st 2008, 08:18 PM
Nigel, please show Scripture that says no one can be lost.

Sorry for the delay - good verse from jesuslover1968 - but these are great too:-

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Ē Jn 6:40 NKJV

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand. Jn 10:27b-29 NKJV

In case you are going to say that WE can snatch ourselves out of the Father's hand, are we greater than the Father? How are we NOT included in the "greater than ALL"?

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:8-9 NKJV

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Rom 8:29 NKJV

..and we ain't glorified till we get to Glory! But in God's eyes, it's a done deal! That's why it's in the past tense - same as Christ being slain before the foundation of the world - it hadn't happened at that time, but it was GUARANTEED to happen!

Butch5
Oct 31st 2008, 11:39 PM
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

How does this show a person cannot be lost?

Butch5
Oct 31st 2008, 11:58 PM
Sorry for the delay - good verse from jesuslover1968 - but these are great too:-

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Ē Jn 6:40 NKJV

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand. Jn 10:27b-29 NKJV

In case you are going to say that WE can snatch ourselves out of the Father's hand, are we greater than the Father? How are we NOT included in the "greater than ALL"?

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:8-9 NKJV

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Rom 8:29 NKJV

..and we ain't glorified till we get to Glory! But in God's eyes, it's a done deal! That's why it's in the past tense - same as Christ being slain before the foundation of the world - it hadn't happened at that time, but it was GUARANTEED to happen!

Nigel,

Look at these verses in context.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Ē Jn 6:40 NKJV

This is a promise to the one who is believing, what if he stops believing?

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand. Jn 10:27b-29 NKJV

This is a promise to His sheep, aren't these believers? what if one stops believing?

who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:8-9 NKJV

Again, isn't this a promise to the one who is believing?

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Rom 8:29 NKJV

The reason all of the verbs are past tense is because the events happened in the past. Paul gave this as evidence or proof of the previous statement that he made. Paul said in verse 28 all things work together for good to them that love God. To prove his point he wrote verses 29-30. This is how God works all things together for good to them that love Him. The ones He know before, I.E. Abraham, Jacob, David, etc. He predetermined to be conformed in the image of His Son, those He predetermined (Abraham, Jacob, David), He also called, those He called (Abraham, Jacob, David), He also justified (Abraham, Jacob, David). Paul was encouraging the saints at Rome, showing them with verses 29-30 that God is faithful. He did it for them He will do it for you.

VerticalReality
Nov 1st 2008, 02:57 AM
Can a person fall away from faith as in obedience to Christ? Sure . . . I believe they certainly can.

Can a person who is truly a born again Christian become an atheist? I do not see how that one is possible.

If I meet John Doe and have a friendship with him for ten years or so can I then just one day decide that John Doe no longer exists? That would be no. I am convinced that anyone who states they are an atheist who was once Christian never really knew Christ to begin with.

9Marksfan
Nov 1st 2008, 09:50 AM
Nigel,

Look at these verses in context.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Ē Jn 6:40 NKJV

This is a promise to the one who is believing, what if he stops believing?

If he remains in that position till death, he was never saved - despite setbacks, a true believer will not fall irrevocably and become permanently apostate.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fatherís hand. Jn 10:27b-29 NKJV

This is a promise to His sheep, aren't these believers? what if one stops believing?

They show they're not His sheep. In fact Jesus says this specifically in the same passage:-

But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. Jn 10:26 NKJV

Note He DOESN'T say "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe" - whihc is your theology. We have to be given to Christ by the Father - chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world - or we will not believe. Yet we are responsible if we remain in unbelief.


who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Cor 1:8-9 NKJV

Again, isn't this a promise to the one who is believing?

Well the emphasis is on God's work in salvation:-

"sanctified in Christ Jesus" - v2a

"called" - v2b

"the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus" - v4b

"enriched in everything by Him" - v5a

Paul's whole emphasis in the letter (and in this first chapter in particular) is to exhort the Corinthians to be GOD-centred, not man-centred. Notice how he says that they're the church of GOD......

Those who, God sanctified and called, those to whom He gave His grace, those whom He has enriched in every way, He WILL confirm to the end - regardless of any crisis of faith setbacks. Are you saying He is either unable or unwiling to deal with these setbacks? If someone turns their back on their "faith" and they were truly saved and God were to do nothing about it - or give up on them! - what does that say about HIM?!?!?!


Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Rom 8:29 NKJV

The reason all of the verbs are past tense is because the events happened in the past. Paul gave this as evidence or proof of the previous statement that he made. Paul said in verse 28 all things work together for good to them that love God. To prove his point he wrote verses 29-30. This is how God works all things together for good to them that love Him. The ones He know before, I.E. Abraham, Jacob, David, etc. He predetermined to be conformed in the image of His Son, those He predetermined (Abraham, Jacob, David), He also called, those He called (Abraham, Jacob, David), He also justified (Abraham, Jacob, David). Paul was encouraging the saints at Rome, showing them with verses 29-30 that God is faithful. He did it for them He will do it for you.

Well we're agreed on that anyway! But you've said it yourself - "He WILL do it for you!"

9Marksfan
Nov 1st 2008, 09:52 AM
Can a person fall away from faith as in obedience to Christ? Sure . . . I believe they certainly can.

So what does God do about this? Is He either unable or unwilling to bring them back?

jesuslover1968
Nov 1st 2008, 03:26 PM
How does this show a person cannot be lost?


Philippians 1:2-8





2Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
7Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

The context of the passage is talking about those who have come to believe the Gospel, which IS Jesus Christ. If God starts something, He doesn't walk away, or let it walk away, unfinished. He will complete HIs work. If you are saved, you will stay saved.


Revelation 3:17-20




17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



If you belong to God, you are His child. As any Father would, if you do wrong, God will rebuke you, but He will not forsake you, ever.

This reminds me of all those debates about osas or nosas. The biggest problem with this debate is that people do not understand what "saved" really is. If you belong to God, you will always belong to Him.

VerticalReality
Nov 1st 2008, 04:52 PM
So what does God do about this? Is He either unable or unwilling to bring them back?

From my experience those who truly know and love the Lord are not going to stray long . . .

Just looking at it from my point of view . . . the guilt and shame of straying from my Lord is too much for me to bear . . .

Deep in me I desire to please Him and live for Him. Sometimes I obviously fail at that, but I cannot remain in that failure. The shame of my sin is too much for me to remain in . . .

Whom the Lord loves He chastens . . .

I don't particularly find the chastening of the Lord to be a pleasant thing, so when I am being chastened it doesn't take long to submit myself to Him and get back where I'm supposed to be.

9Marksfan
Nov 1st 2008, 07:49 PM
From my experience those who truly know and love the Lord are not going to stray long . . .

Just looking at it from my point of view . . . the guilt and shame of straying from my Lord is too much for me to bear . . .

Deep in me I desire to please Him and live for Him. Sometimes I obviously fail at that, but I cannot remain in that failure. The shame of my sin is too much for me to remain in . . .

Whom the Lord loves He chastens . . .

I don't particularly find the chastening of the Lord to be a pleasant thing, so when I am being chastened it doesn't take long to submit myself to Him and get back where I'm supposed to be.

Amen! And that is how a true child of God responds - those who despise the challenges that come to their lives and get angry with God and rebel show they were NEVER truly saved in the first place. Worst of all are those who NEVER have any kind of discipline broguth inot their circumstances - we may be envious of such people but Heb 12 makes it clear they are not God's beloved children - no matter how "spiritual" they may appear to be......

Butch5
Nov 1st 2008, 09:10 PM
Can a person fall away from faith as in obedience to Christ? Sure . . . I believe they certainly can.

Can a person who is truly a born again Christian become an atheist? I do not see how that one is possible.

If I meet John Doe and have a friendship with him for ten years or so can I then just one day decide that John Doe no longer exists? That would be no. I am convinced that anyone who states they are an atheist who was once Christian never really knew Christ to begin with.

It's not that one day that they deny God exists. It is the fact that they decide to no longer follow Christ.

Butch5
Nov 1st 2008, 09:34 PM
9Marksfan---If he remains in that position till death, he was never saved

This is an assumption on your part and has not Scriptural support.


9Marksfan---despite setbacks, a true believer will not fall irrevocably and become permanently apostate.

This statement not only has NO biblical support, it is actually contradictory to Scripture.



They show they're not His sheep. In fact Jesus says this specifically in the same passage:-
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. Jn 10:26 NKJV

Note He DOESN'T say "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe" - whihc is your theology. We have to be given to Christ by the Father - chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world - or we will not believe. Yet we are responsible if we remain in unbelief.


No, this verse was spoken of the Jews who were given to Christ by the father. The sheep, is a reference to Israel, they were the ones chosen before the foundation of hte world. Those chosen by God I.E. the apostles ( and some others) were chosen for the purpose of bring the gospel to the world. They are the ones who believed. That is why Jesus said to the others you do not believe because you are not of my sheep.



9Marksfan---Well the emphasis is on God's work in salvation:-
"sanctified in Christ Jesus" - v2a
"called" - v2b
"the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus" - v4b
"enriched in everything by Him" - v5a

Paul's whole emphasis in the letter (and in this first chapter in particular) is to exhort the Corinthians to be GOD-centred, not man-centred. Notice how he says that they're the church of GOD......

Those who, God sanctified and called, those to whom He gave His grace, those whom He has enriched in every way, He WILL confirm to the end - regardless of any crisis of faith setbacks. Are you saying He is either unable or unwiling to deal with these setbacks? If someone turns their back on their "faith" and they were truly saved and God were to do nothing about it - or give up on them! - what does that say about HIM?!?!?!


Your statement cannot be supported by Scripture. Scripture says you must endure in the faith to the end to be saved. Therefore if one does not endure they will not be saved. I am not saying God is unwilling or unable, however, if one leaves Him He will let them go.



9Marksfan---Well we're agreed on that anyway! But you've said it yourself - "He WILL do it for you!"

Yes, He did it, because they continued to believe. If they had not then they would have been cut off

Butch5
Nov 1st 2008, 09:41 PM
Philippians 1:2-8





2Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
7Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

The context of the passage is talking about those who have come to believe the Gospel, which IS Jesus Christ. If God starts something, He doesn't walk away, or let it walk away, unfinished. He will complete HIs work. If you are saved, you will stay saved.


Revelation 3:17-20




17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



If you belong to God, you are His child. As any Father would, if you do wrong, God will rebuke you, but He will not forsake you, ever.

This reminds me of all those debates about osas or nosas. The biggest problem with this debate is that people do not understand what "saved" really is. If you belong to God, you will always belong to Him.

The problem is, people debate what God can do. That is not the issue. The issue is what man does. And the Scriptures CLEARLY teach that man can walk away from the faith.

holyrokker
Nov 1st 2008, 11:05 PM
Romans 11:17-24 is pretty clear on the topic.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but Godís kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

9Marksfan
Nov 1st 2008, 11:15 PM
This is an assumption on your part and has not Scriptural support.

Absolutely it does. The passages in Jn 10:28-29, Rom 8:28-38, 1 Cor 1:8-9, Php 1:6 just for starters. It's actually your man-centred theology that is without biblical support.


This statement not only has NO biblical support, it is actually contradictory to Scripture.

You can't make that assertion without backing it up. Please show me Scripture which contradcits what I have said.


No, this verse was spoken of the Jews who were given to Christ by the father.

So Gentile believers (the "other sheep not of this fold") are somehow not Christ's sheep?


The sheep, is a reference to Israel, they were the ones chosen before the foundation of hte world.

So Gentile believers aren't?


Those chosen by God I.E. the apostles ( and some others) were chosen for the purpose of bring the gospel to the world. They are the ones who believed. That is why Jesus said to the others you do not believe because you are not of my sheep.

That's reaching a bit! I'd rather take Jesus' words at face value!


Your statement cannot be supported by Scripture. Scripture says you must endure in the faith to the end to be saved.

I agree - where have I said otherwise?


Therefore if one does not endure they will not be saved.

Correct.


I am not saying God is unwilling or unable, however, if one leaves Him He will let them go.

So He let Peter go when he denied Christ?


Yes, He did it, because they continued to believe. If they had not then they would have been cut off

That is salvation by the work of faith. You have things the wrong way round - we keep believing because God keeps us - NOT the other way round - God acts decisively, we act dependently.

Butch5
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:04 AM
9Marksfan---Absolutely it does. The passages in Jn 10:28-29, Rom 8:28-38, 1 Cor 1:8-9, Php 1:6 just for starters. It's actually your man-centred theology that is without biblical support.


Can you please show me how these verses show that a person who believes, and then chooses not to continue in belief and remains that way til death, was never saved?


9Marksfan---You can't make that assertion without backing it up. Please show me Scripture which contradcits what I have said.


Hebrews 3:1 ( KJV ) 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;


Hebrews 3:12 ( KJV ) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 6:4-8 ( KJV ) 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:26-30 ( KJV ) 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Hebrews 12:25 ( KJV ) 25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


1 Timothy 1:18-20 ( KJV ) 18This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2 Peter 2:1-2 ( KJV ) 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
These speak of those who have turned from Christ and are destroyed.


9Marksfan---So Gentile believers (the "other sheep not of this fold") are somehow not Christ's sheep?

Jesus never said who the other sheep were, if you want to make that case I will listen.


9Marksfan--- So Gentile believers aren't?


No, no one was chosen to believe before the foundation of the world, the Jews were God's chosen people and God chose to save all who would believe, however, God did not choose who would believe.
When Paul says, God chose us before the foundation of the world, He is referring to Himself and those with Him.


9Marksfan---That's reaching a bit! I'd rather take Jesus' words at face value!


It's not reaching. Look at Jesus statements,

John 6:37-45 ( KJV ) 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. Now these verses do no apply to you or I, when Jesus said this, salvation had not yet come to the gentiles, Jesus himself said,

Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,

John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No one today will see the Son. Now Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws Him, this is correct. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, God determined that Christ would die for sins,

Acts 2:23 ( KJV ) 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
For this to happen the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,

Jesus
Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Isaiah
Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Paul
Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul
Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,

John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast out. Now Jesus said that it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day, now the question is what does He mean by "it was the Fathers will that He should lift them up at the last day" is this something that must happen or is it what the Father desires to happen? I say that this is what the Father desires to happen but it doesn't have to happen, let's look at it. First the Calvinist would say that those who are drawn to Christ are the elect, those given to Christ are the elect. So let's see who they are, John 17 tells us who they are,


John 17:2 ( KJV ) 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17:6-8 ( KJV ) 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

So we see from John 17 that the ones given to Christ by the Father were the disciples, Now Jesus said He should raise them up at the last day. Is that a Guarantee? No,


John 17:12 ( KJV ) 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Now Judas was lost He will not be lifted up at the last day, now you can say Judas wasn't saved, but you can't say that Judas wasn't one of those given to Christ by the Father. Judas WAS given to Christ by the Father
so it was the desire of God that all be lifted up but that did not happen.
Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction took place, after the crucifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,


John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel.which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.




9Marksfan---I agree - where have I said otherwise?

You said those who God sanctified and gave His grace to and has enriched He (God) "WILL" confirm to the end. However this will only occur if they endure to the end, if they turn away it will not happen.


9Marksfan---So He let Peter go when he denied Christ?


Peter repented.


9Marksfan---That is salvation by the work of faith. You have things the wrong way round - we keep believing because God keeps us - NOT the other way round - God acts decisively, we act dependently.

God only keeps those who continue in belief.

Are you speaking of initial salvation or our ultimate salvation at the judgment? Our ultimate salvation at the judgment most definitely depends on our works.

Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice the ones who did the good works are the one who are considered righteous. And notice also that the ones who are unrighteous and go to hell, they didn't do the sins of the flesh, they are unrighteous because they did not do the "good works" that the righteous did. Paul also verifies this.

Romans 2:3-10 ( KJV ) 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Again, notice that it is the ones how do good that receive eternal life and the ones who do not, the wrath of God