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JesusMySavior
Oct 24th 2008, 02:27 AM
One thing I've been thinking about a lot is what will happen when the new world order is established. As Christians, where would we hide out? Obviously everyone who doesn't have the mark will be considered the worst criminal and will have to hide ferociously from the government. I think the church would really truly have to come together and become one body of believers and hide out in parks and caves and underground bunkers.

It's very interesting but it gets a person thinking.

You'd have people that would take turns at a post watching for guards or security that they wouldn't find you, and you'd have others that would run for firewood and supplies; you couldn't carry a cell-phone or gps or any other device that works with satellite or radio frequencies lest they pinpoint you; perhaps a smart computer-savvy Christian could figure out how to unscramble the old analog airwaves (everything goes digital in February and analog is being retired) and use it for communication between hideouts? Non-stop prayer and worship? Man...we should really be planning for such things!

Dani H
Oct 24th 2008, 02:31 AM
Your post is very Matrix-esque ...

JesusMySavior
Oct 24th 2008, 02:41 AM
Your post is very Matrix-esque ...


Thank you but we are living in a Matrix-esque world, or at least coming up on it...

where do you think they got the idea FOR the matrix? Eh, the world... I don't think my thoughts are too far fetched. Besides, who can ever be too prepared?

David161099
Oct 24th 2008, 02:46 AM
Will there be any humans left after sky-net launches it's war on humans?

Apprently the next Terminator movie will deal a post-apocolyptic theme where humans have to hide out (Just like original post).

Personally I don't believe it will happen in our lifetimes.

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 02:47 AM
The thing is there is nothing in the bible instructing us to hide out...we have two choices...take the mark or be killed refusing. There is nothing else. I don't know why anyone would want to live in the world that many paint the picture on here of becoming anyway. Though some argue there will be survivors...I hope I am not one of them. (though I don't even share this end time view so I don't worry about it at all)

Anyway...I am sure you will get many that agree with you and will help you map things out as many have done similar posts before too.


God bless

Dani H
Oct 24th 2008, 02:52 AM
Thank you but we are living in a Matrix-esque world, or at least coming up on it...

where do you think they got the idea FOR the matrix? Eh, the world... I don't think my thoughts are too far fetched. Besides, who can ever be too prepared?

I didn't mean it in a critical way, it was just the way it struck me. :)

I wonder what Jesus meant by "on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

Did He mean what He said? If so, that would hold true throughout any age, regardless.

Ethnikos
Oct 24th 2008, 04:50 AM
...we have two choices...take the mark or be killed refusing...
You have more than one way to deal with the second choice.
If you intend to refuse, you are already a rebel, so why turn yourself in?
Walking into the authorities to notify them that you refuse, serves no purpose. If you are already condemned, might as well go with it and try to survive. You already have nothing to loose. Remember, the ones who take it will die first.

Joe King
Oct 24th 2008, 05:05 AM
I'm going to deal with it straight on. I am a Christian and Jesus is returning. That will probably be my last words.

Gentle Soul
Oct 24th 2008, 05:51 AM
Drop me off in the wilderness with nothing but the shirt on my back and I will survive....... When I was a child I ran away a lot, I also grew up out in the stix, and I studied how to identify and prepare wild edible plants that were indigenous. Believe me, there are many, many options in that area alone, much less fish and game that can be had with ease, so surviving is not a problem, defending yourself against a superior foe, ie. the beasts police is entirely a different matter though.

Electronic gadgets of any kind will be most likely traceable in those times, communication should be done in a much more privative fashion, look to the native American's for how they did it and how they survived on their own without any high tech gadgets. Then again, it could be a case of no matter where you are at, you will be easily found so no matter what you have prepared for, your efforts will be utterly futile.

I remember a movie I believed called Wolverines, where the Russians invaded America and the last stand was done in Alaska. The team managed to stand their ground against the aggressors be it in a guerrilla fashion. Likely, if this was the case with those that refused the mark, it would be a similar situation. (hopefully).

At the same time, look to how quickly we are moving forward, technologically, the mark may be something that is deemed innocent by the general population. A ssn for example is mandatory to gain any employment in the US, it in itself has been called the mark in the past, and the only way you can get away without having to supply it is either through fraud or if you are illegally working under the table. I also can put this thinking onto context, if you have no credit, your options are very, very limited in this world, again, another mark in my book. Not too worried about the latter, I have zip in that area and never had all my life.

David161099
Oct 24th 2008, 05:55 AM
As Christians I don't think we should fear what God has already pre-ordained.

I put this hypothesis forward and I'm trying to be respectful but..... I think your concern about end times is a cultural one.

The only people I see constantly discussing end times seem to be people who live in the USA.

Just looking at the history of your country etc, it's almost a cultural requirment to be paranoid that your country will fall to some outside force.

All the wars your country has been in has created an almost ultra-patriotic aspect of your culture.

I'm not saying this is the case...but sometimes I wonder if USA comes first, Jesus comes second over there. ( Idon't think so....but sometimes I wonder).

When you are dead you will leave your country behind, when we are in heaven there isn't going to be a need for nationalism and wars. God wont allow wars by men in heaven. I think he has a plan.

So no Christian should worry.



Matthew 6:27-29 (New International Version)

27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin.
29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.

Gentle Soul
Oct 24th 2008, 06:09 AM
As Christians I don't think we should fear what God has already pre-ordained.

I put this hypothesis forward and I'm trying to be respectful but..... I think your concern about end times is a cultural one.

The only people I see constantly discussing end times seem to be people who live in the USA.

Just looking at the history of your country etc, it's almost a cultural requirment to be paranoid that your country will fall to some outside force.

All the wars your country has been in has created an almost ultra-patriotic aspect of your culture.

I'm not saying this is the case...but sometimes I wonder if USA comes first, Jesus comes second over there. ( Idon't think so....but sometimes I wonder).

When you are dead you will leave your country behind, when we are in heaven there isn't going to be a need for nationalism and wars. God wont allow wars by men in heaven. I think he has a plan.

So no Christian should worry.

David, can you imagine a world where America never existed? We were founded for the fact, we wanted freedom of religion, it's natural we still sway into that area by default, yet take note, we are known as a Christian based country, why is that btw?.

The reason why this country matters most is the fact, it's the melting pot of the entire planet. This is by far different then any country in the rest of the world and makes it a pivotal benchmark to determine where the state of affairs in the world is at. We have all religions, races, beliefs, etc. within these boarders, and it has never changed. Diversification has been our strength, and hek yeah, we are going to be patriotic about it, this is your America just as much as it is ours believe it or not. I also take pride in the fact, we have proven ourselves to stand up when the world needs us and face any oppressor that thinks they can override outside countries, replacing them with their own agenda's, this is what we do, this is why the world would be in a much, much more horrible of a state then it is today.

Think about it this way, what would Nazi Germany be doing if the good Ol USA did not stand in their way?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 06:25 AM
I didn't mean it in a critical way, it was just the way it struck me. :)

I wonder what Jesus meant by "on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

Did He mean what He said? If so, that would hold true throughout any age, regardless.The gates of hell might not prevail, but they could still deliver quite a beating.

David161099
Oct 24th 2008, 06:34 AM
Think about it this way, what would Nazi Germany be doing if the good Ol USA did not stand in their way?

From what I know of History, The USA waited and waited while the UK was almost bombed out of existence, and many Russians & Commonwealth soilders lost their lives.

The USA government wanted to enter the war, but the people were against it. Then Pearl Harbour occurred.

Hitler was ultimately defeated the same way Napolean was - the Russian front and under-estimating the coldness of Russian winter & the resilience of the Russians.

Thank God for the Athiest Communists eh? ;)



*** anyways - I'm sorry what was the point of your reply? Are you saying that I should just accept that you guys are somehow the appointed superstars and the US Christian life is more important to the non-US Christian?? Because that comes across as very arrogant? :hmm:

Literalist-Luke
Oct 24th 2008, 07:11 AM
Tragically, it appears in my Bible that the US will end up on the ash heap of history along with other empires of the past. We will eventually be assimilated by the Antichrist and will ultimately come against Israel at Armageddon, just like everybody else. "Resistance is futile."

David161099
Oct 24th 2008, 07:16 AM
Tragically, it appears in my Bible that the US will end up on the ash heap of history along with other empires of the past. We will eventually be assimilated by the Antichrist and will ultimately come against Israel at Armageddon, just like everybody else. "Resistance is futile."


Yep. I agree with that!

Veretax
Oct 24th 2008, 12:55 PM
Drop me off in the wilderness with nothing but the shirt on my back and I will survive....... When I was a child I ran away a lot, I also grew up out in the stix, and I studied how to identify and prepare wild edible plants that were indigenous. Believe me, there are many, many options in that area alone, much less fish and game that can be had with ease, so surviving is not a problem, defending yourself against a superior foe, ie. the beasts police is entirely a different matter though.

Electronic gadgets of any kind will be most likely traceable in those times, communication should be done in a much more privative fashion, look to the native American's for how they did it and how they survived on their own without any high tech gadgets. Then again, it could be a case of no matter where you are at, you will be easily found so no matter what you have prepared for, your efforts will be utterly futile.

I remember a movie I believed called Wolverines, where the Russians invaded America and the last stand was done in Alaska. The team managed to stand their ground against the aggressors be it in a guerrilla fashion. Likely, if this was the case with those that refused the mark, it would be a similar situation. (hopefully).

At the same time, look to how quickly we are moving forward, technologically, the mark may be something that is deemed innocent by the general population. A ssn for example is mandatory to gain any employment in the US, it in itself has been called the mark in the past, and the only way you can get away without having to supply it is either through fraud or if you are illegally working under the table. I also can put this thinking onto context, if you have no credit, your options are very, very limited in this world, again, another mark in my book. Not too worried about the latter, I have zip in that area and never had all my life.

The movie you speak of was Red Dawn.

moonglow
Oct 24th 2008, 02:42 PM
Drop me off in the wilderness with nothing but the shirt on my back and I will survive....... When I was a child I ran away a lot, I also grew up out in the stix, and I studied how to identify and prepare wild edible plants that were indigenous. Believe me, there are many, many options in that area alone, much less fish and game that can be had with ease, so surviving is not a problem, defending yourself against a superior foe, ie. the beasts police is entirely a different matter though.

Electronic gadgets of any kind will be most likely traceable in those times, communication should be done in a much more privative fashion, look to the native American's for how they did it and how they survived on their own without any high tech gadgets. Then again, it could be a case of no matter where you are at, you will be easily found so no matter what you have prepared for, your efforts will be utterly futile.

I remember a movie I believed called Wolverines, where the Russians invaded America and the last stand was done in Alaska. The team managed to stand their ground against the aggressors be it in a guerrilla fashion. Likely, if this was the case with those that refused the mark, it would be a similar situation. (hopefully).

At the same time, look to how quickly we are moving forward, technologically, the mark may be something that is deemed innocent by the general population. A ssn for example is mandatory to gain any employment in the US, it in itself has been called the mark in the past, and the only way you can get away without having to supply it is either through fraud or if you are illegally working under the table. I also can put this thinking onto context, if you have no credit, your options are very, very limited in this world, again, another mark in my book. Not too worried about the latter, I have zip in that area and never had all my life.

See I don't understand those that want to do the survivalist thing (first let me say I DO admire those that can do this...but most of us can't...I am disabled and certainly couldn't..or would even want too)...

But consider this...the water will be poisoned, much of the grass trees will be burned up...dealing with ALOT of smoke in the air...earthquakes bad enough to level mountains and cause islands to disappear...giant hail and 'stars' hitting the planet...

NO place will be safe from these things! Or go unaffected.

That is if you take all of those things literally...it would be impossible to survive...oh plus wild beast attacking people and on and on and on! The beast might be the least of your worries...

God bless

JesusMySavior
Oct 25th 2008, 03:26 AM
Post got off topic a little bit...

but I'm still surprised why, even if Jesus tells us not to worry, why we are not preparing? Christ said also that the virgins should have enough oil in their lamps until the bridegroom comes. The foolish bride ran out of oil and asked the others for the oil but they wouldn't give it to her (not that we as Christians wouldn't share) but to say not to bother with it at all is kinda bogus in my book. Whether God takes us away in a rapture ahead of time or not I don't know. But it's kinda like the whole thing that you tell atheists - if I'm wrong at least I enjoyed my life and had peace. But if you're wrong, you're in for an eternity of hell fire. So if I'm wrong about this, what does it hurt me? Why not plan to prepare for such things? But if you're wrong, you may be in for a much more bumpy ride.

If that sounds pretentious I apologize but just trying to get a point across. :)

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 03:44 AM
First off I can't help but find the notion of going and turning yourself in to be beheaded as foolish. I am not saying deny your faith but try to survive and reach those who have yet to make a decision and don't have hardened hearts. Additionally, survival is not difficult at first initially it won't be an all out kill the Christians kind of thing. Once the antichrist becomes satan though then it is downhill from there.

Also I wonder if we will be spared of the judgements from God because in the past he has protected his believers. It doesn't make sense to me for him to kill those who spread his message with the disasters he is sending to get people to see who he is. It's like saying look at all this good I am doing to draw attention to my cause, but I won't help my own followers (I know thats a really bad analogy).

Frankly, I am going to fight and if I have to kill someone who tries to kill me so be it. There is nothing wrong with killing the followers of satan imho.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 04:13 AM
I wonder if we will be spared of the judgements from God because in the past he has protected his believers.Yes, we will be - by the Post-Trib Rapture, just before the Day of the Lord.
It doesn't make sense to me for him to kill those who spread his message with the disasters he is sending to get people to see who he is. It's like saying look at all this good I am doing to draw attention to my cause, but I won't help my own followers (I know thats a really bad analogy).No argument from this Post-Tribber. :yes:
Frankly, I am going to fight and if I have to kill someone who tries to kill me so be it. There is nothing wrong with killing the followers of satan imho.Well, and especially since the Bible is clear they'll be the ones trying to kill us.

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 05:30 AM
I dunno about that “killing them ‘cause their gunna kill me” thing.

Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:12-21

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:
Matthew 10:19-23

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 05:46 AM
I dunno about that “killing them ‘cause their gunna kill me” thing.Maybe I should clarify. I do not mean to suggest that it is right to go track somebody down and kill them in cold blood because of the possibility they might come after you. I'm only speaking in terms of imminent self-defense, like where somebody is trying to break down your door and there is an actively imminent threat present. Hopefully that'll clear things up a bit.

Now, let me ask you this: If the Jews in Poland had attempted to stand up to the Nazis, such as what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto, would they have been justified in shooting Nazi soldiers and SS officers in their attempt to avoid the gas chambers of Auschwitz?

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 05:57 AM
I was speaking more toward the idea put forth in a previous post.

If there is total civil unrest and gangs are breaking in your door, they aren't there because you're a Christian.
However, if authorities catch one of us because we are Christians, "not going down without a fight" really is not an option.

What other people do in a similar situation has no bearing. We are to follow Jesus. Especially if we're being persecuted for His name's sake.

The other option He offered, is to flee elsewhere.

Richard

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 06:06 AM
Romans 13:4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

The military goes out and kills those who oppose peace. There is no difference between killing in this situation. I am sorry I just do not see the sense in rolling over. Fight back to the end, and when they finally catch you confess Christ in your dying breath.

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 06:07 AM
Maybe I should clarify. I do not mean to suggest that it is right to go track somebody down and kill them in cold blood because of the possibility they might come after you. I'm only speaking in terms of imminent self-defense, like where somebody is trying to break down your door and there is an actively imminent threat present. Hopefully that'll clear things up a bit.

Now, let me ask you this: If the Jews in Poland had attempted to stand up to the Nazis, such as what happened in the Warsaw Ghetto, would they have been justified in shooting Nazi soldiers and SS officers in their attempt to avoid the gas chambers of Auschwitz?

I think they would, God never ask's us to lay down and die. He says we may be persecuted and killed for our views but we have the right to defend ourselves. I think people take the turn the other cheeek verse out of context. I believe it to mean do not respond with anger/hate. I have yet to read a verse that tells me not to defend myself.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 25th 2008, 06:13 AM
who doesn't have the mark will be considered the worst criminal
Can you explain it a little bit more?

Many thanks

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 06:23 AM
Can you explain it a little bit more?

Many thanks

If you don't have the mark of the beast showing allegiance to the antichrist and denouncement of Christ then you are considered an enemy in the highest level of his Union. A Christian without the mark is to the antichrist what an al-queda operative is to an American.

ananias
Oct 25th 2008, 06:55 AM
The gates of hell might not prevail, but they could still deliver quite a beating.

Gates are defensive. "The gates of hell not prevailing against the Church" does not mean the Church is under attack from hell - it means hell is under attack through the Church.

The defensive gates of hell have not prevailed against the true Church ever since Jesus established His true Church - because hell has been losing souls.

ananias

ananias
Oct 25th 2008, 07:03 AM
One thing I've been thinking about a lot is what will happen when the new world order is established. As Christians, where would we hide out? Obviously everyone who doesn't have the mark will be considered the worst criminal and will have to hide ferociously from the government. I think the church would really truly have to come together and become one body of believers and hide out in parks and caves and underground bunkers.

It's very interesting but it gets a person thinking.

You'd have people that would take turns at a post watching for guards or security that they wouldn't find you, and you'd have others that would run for firewood and supplies; you couldn't carry a cell-phone or gps or any other device that works with satellite or radio frequencies lest they pinpoint you; perhaps a smart computer-savvy Christian could figure out how to unscramble the old analog airwaves (everything goes digital in February and analog is being retired) and use it for communication between hideouts? Non-stop prayer and worship? Man...we should really be planning for such things!

I personally don't imagine or try to imagine the details that the Bible doesn't provide us with - if you're standing in the road near the corner waiting for a blue bus to come and you're supposed to be waiting for a green bus coming from the other direction, you're likely to be driven over by the green us as it comes suddenly around the corner.

That's not to say that I presume to make a choice for those who do choose to imagine the details :no: - I'm not trying to ban anyone's thoughts, or your right to share your thoughts :)

ananias

Lou M.
Oct 25th 2008, 08:12 AM
The military goes out and kills those who oppose peace. There is no difference between killing in this situation. I am sorry I just do not see the sense in rolling over. Fight back to the end, and when they finally catch you confess Christ in your dying breath.

Could you give an example of where Jesus or any of the apostles or martyrs of the early Church ever taught such a thing?
The most important thing is growing in Christ now; tomarrow will take care of itself.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 08:33 AM
Could you give an example of where Jesus or any of the apostles or martyrs of the early Church ever taught such a thing?
The most important thing is growing in Christ now; tomarrow will take care of itself."Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

This same Father instructed Israel to even kill children and animals in the process of defending itself. Any other questions?

Lou M.
Oct 25th 2008, 09:25 AM
So, what your saying is that Jesus or the apostles or martyrs didn't obey Him?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 10:03 AM
So, what your saying is that Jesus or the apostles or martyrs didn't obey Him?I'm saying that the Bible gives us more to consider than only "turning the other cheek".

Lou M.
Oct 25th 2008, 10:10 AM
But Jesus and the apostles and the martyrs only 'turned the other cheek'.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 10:22 AM
Matthew 10:34 - "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Luke 22:36 - "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

daughter
Oct 25th 2008, 10:24 AM
I've just had a story from Scripture that we should think about, regarding the original question anyway. (Sorry if I'm missing some developments).

You remember when there was a famine in the land, because Elijah prayed and it didn't rain for 3 and a half years? Remember who ended up having enough to eat and drink for herself, her guest and her son all that time? The widow who shared her last meal with Elijah.

Perhaps we shouldn't hord, we should give away whatever we have, and share it with God's people. Would that not be the more biblical solution to the problem?

daughter
Oct 25th 2008, 10:27 AM
Matthew 10:34 - "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Luke 22:36 - "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
There are different ways of interpreting that verse. Immediately after He says it, the twelve say, "hey... we've got two swords already..." and Jesus says, "that's enough." Does He mean, "that is enough swords," or "that's enough nonsense... how come you guys never understand me?"

I've always believed that the Sword of the Lord is the Word of His mouth, and that the Sword which protects His people is the Bible, that the Sword which divides and pierces is Scripture.

Next time we see a sword mentioned, not long after Jesus said this, is when Malchus has his ear cut off. What does Jesus say? Put up your swords, He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. And He heals the victim of violence.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 10:39 AM
There are different ways of interpreting that verse. Immediately after He says it, the twelve say, "hey... we've got two swords already..." and Jesus says, "that's enough." Does He mean, "that is enough swords," or "that's enough nonsense... how come you guys never understand me?"

I've always believed that the Sword of the Lord is the Word of His mouth, and that the Sword which protects His people is the Bible, that the Sword which divides and pierces is Scripture.

Next time we see a sword mentioned, not long after Jesus said this, is when Malchus has his ear cut off. What does Jesus say? Put up your swords, He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. And He heals the victim of violence.Right, I agree. As I said earlier, I'm not suggesting that we should proactively go out and initialize violent confrontations. I'm only saying that we have a right to defend ourselves if faced with an imminently life-threatening situation where we have broken no law.

Now, does that mean that if a squad of thought police show up at our house to "recondition" us from Christianity that we should try to gun them down? Not at all.

But if I was holed up with a bunch of other believers and we had some weapons and the Antichrist's soldiers were coming to force us to choose between the Mark and getting our heads lopped off, I believe I'd rather die fighting than under a swordsman's blade chopping off my head.

Lou M.
Oct 25th 2008, 10:45 AM
Matthew 10:34 - "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

And He did indeed bring a sword that cuts both ways:

"..piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..."



Luke 22:36 - "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

Well, if there was no sword Jesus couldn't have said:

"Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

daughter
Oct 25th 2008, 10:55 AM
Right, I agree. As I said earlier, I'm not suggesting that we should proactively go out and initialize violent confrontations. I'm only saying that we have a right to defend ourselves if faced with an imminently life-threatening situation where we have broken no law.

Now, does that mean that if a squad of thought police show up at our house to "recondition" us from Christianity that we should try to gun them down? Not at all.

But if I was holed up with a bunch of other believers and we had some weapons and the Antichrist's soldiers were coming to force us to choose between the Mark and getting our heads lopped off, I believe I'd rather die fighting than under a swordsman's blade chopping off my head.
I think I'd rather die proclaiming Christ as King. But whether I'd have the strength to do that I don't know. Naturally I'm a very bad tempered cranky person, and before I was Christian I trained in several martial arts for many years. I'd hope that my previous conditioning wouldn't return, but I don't know.

Trying to distract the soldiers so others could escape is one thing. Killing them something else. Jesus said "love your enemies, do good to those that abuse you, pray for them." He didn't say "kill them before they kill you."

I do know I'd rather die with scripture in my mouth than a sword in my hand. But I also know how weak and scared I really am, so in the end I might return to type and let adrenaline drive me.

Veretax
Oct 25th 2008, 12:37 PM
I think I'd rather die proclaiming Christ as King. But whether I'd have the strength to do that I don't know. Naturally I'm a very bad tempered cranky person, and before I was Christian I trained in several martial arts for many years. I'd hope that my previous conditioning wouldn't return, but I don't know.

Trying to distract the soldiers so others could escape is one thing. Killing them something else. Jesus said "love your enemies, do good to those that abuse you, pray for them." He didn't say "kill them before they kill you."

I do know I'd rather die with scripture in my mouth than a sword in my hand. But I also know how weak and scared I really am, so in the end I might return to type and let adrenaline drive me.


I wonder if the passage where christ said, those who wish to save their life shall lose it, but those who give their life shall gain? Not sure If I have that recalled correctly though.

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 01:24 PM
I wonder if the passage where christ said, those who wish to save their life shall lose it, but those who give their life shall gain? Not sure If I have that recalled correctly though.Good point,Veretax! J
Here it is:

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Matthew 16:24-27 (NASB)

Also Mark 8:34-36
and…

saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day."
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.
"For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 9:22-26 (NASB)

With the possibility that we may actually see Revelation come to pass in our lifetime(s), I'm all for prepping, if you feel so led.
But what are you prepping for?
To extend one's life a few years, by taking the life of another?
To take 'em down, because "Jesus didn't die for them as well"?
To pray for their souls while aiming between the eyes?
Or should we prepare so that we can continue to minister to the saints and the lost?

I'm far from even close to perfect, but let's not set evil as our goal.
Love and grace is the standard of our Savior and Lord.
He will repay - so that we are freed to love.

Richard

Veretax
Oct 25th 2008, 02:30 PM
Good point,Veretax! J
Here it is:

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Matthew 16:24-27 (NASB)

Also Mark 8:34-36
and…

saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day."
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.
"For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 9:22-26 (NASB)

With the possibility that we may actually see Revelation come to pass in our lifetime(s), I'm all for prepping, if you feel so led.
But what are you prepping for?
To extend one's life a few years, by taking the life of another?
To take 'em down, because "Jesus didn't die for them as well"?
To pray for their souls while aiming between the eyes?
Or should we prepare so that we can continue to minister to the saints and the lost?

I'm far from even close to perfect, but let's not set evil as our goal.
Love and grace is the standard of our Savior and Lord.
He will repay - so that we are freed to love.

Richard

This is where my thinknig is currently. Assuming we are here for the tribulation, and I believe we will know its the tribulation if that is the case, my thinking would be more along the lines of obeying God and letting him sort out what happens. There are other ways to preserve life without taking another. I'd gladly give my life to preserve my wife or son for example. However, as I believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. I look forward with hope that Christ will not suffer us unto this time of wrath.

moonglow
Oct 25th 2008, 02:32 PM
"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

This same Father instructed Israel to even kill children and animals in the process of defending itself. Any other questions?

Well Luke you know in this situation God commanded it as the Jews were under constant attacks by these pagans. We clearly read that in the Word. In regards to the end time events there isn't one verse that suggest we are to fight back...though it is called a war.


Revelation 13

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

The key words here are 'he was given authority and to 'overcome' the saints. God will allow this to happen...for the greater cause.

The only thing Revelation says about the saints overcoming the beast is with their testimony.

Revelation 12:10-12

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 25th 2008, 02:44 PM
Post got off topic a little bit...

but I'm still surprised why, even if Jesus tells us not to worry, why we are not preparing? Christ said also that the virgins should have enough oil in their lamps until the bridegroom comes. The foolish bride ran out of oil and asked the others for the oil but they wouldn't give it to her (not that we as Christians wouldn't share) but to say not to bother with it at all is kinda bogus in my book. Whether God takes us away in a rapture ahead of time or not I don't know. But it's kinda like the whole thing that you tell atheists - if I'm wrong at least I enjoyed my life and had peace. But if you're wrong, you're in for an eternity of hell fire. So if I'm wrong about this, what does it hurt me? Why not plan to prepare for such things? But if you're wrong, you may be in for a much more bumpy ride.

If that sounds pretentious I apologize but just trying to get a point across. :)

This is about being spiritually prepared though. Nothing is said about us storing up food or going out to hide in the woods or anything. With this end time view, the whole world will literally be affected..their won't be any place to hide from 'stars' slamming into the earth...mountains being leveled by giant earthquakes, fires, etc, etc. How exactly would a person get ready for such a thing anyway? It would be impossible to be physically prepared for it...that is why the focus in the bible is on being spiritually prepared and we do that by working on our relationship with God.

The Adam Clarke Commentary (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=025)
Verse 1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven
The state of Jews and professing Christians-the state of the visible Church at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, and in the day of judgment: for the parable appears to relate to both those periods. And particularly at the time in which Christ shall come to judge the world, it shall appear what kind of reception his Gospel has met with.

Virgins
Denoting the purity of the Christian doctrine and character. In this parable, the bridegroom is generally understood to mean Jesus Christ. The feast, that state of felicity to which he has promised to raise his genuine followers. The wise, or prudent, and foolish virgins, those who truly enjoy, and those who only profess the purity and holiness of his religion. The oil, the grace and salvation of God, or that faith which works by love. The vessel, the heart in which this oil is contained. The lamp, the profession of enjoying the burning and shining light of the Gospel of Christ. Going forth; the whole of their sojourning upon earth.

We are to always be ready...but spiritually.

God bless

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 03:02 PM
This is where my thinknig is currently. Assuming we are here for the tribulation, and I believe we will know its the tribulation if that is the case, my thinking would be more along the lines of obeying God and letting him sort out what happens. There are other ways to preserve life without taking another. I'd gladly give my life to preserve my wife or son for example. However, as I believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. I look forward with hope that Christ will not suffer us unto this time of wrath. Giving one's life for the sake of others is the example of Christ.
Hopefully none of us will be put in that situation.

It's a good thing to protect the defenseless – the children, the elderly, (with the exception of Daughter J) the women, and any who are at the mercy of evil.
As I see it, allowing a child to be harmed and trumatized is just a bad as those who serve their own desires or callousness.

Still, if possible, it's better to avoid taking a life, while protecting life.

I'm a 7th trump post-tribber, so I expect trouble and persecution to ensue - even natural catastrophes.
These are not the wrath of God, though.

We are promised through the blood and the Spirit, that we are not subject to His wrath.
Even after all the trouble, God's wrath are the seven bowls and we will be in His presence and safety when they are poured upon the earth.

Woe to they who dwell on the earth at that time. They have already made their choice.

Richard

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 03:07 PM
I excluded you, Daughter, because you apparently are less defenseless than I am. ;)

Richard

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 04:28 PM
Giving one's life for the sake of others is the example of Christ.
Hopefully none of us will be put in that situation.

It's a good thing to protect the defenseless – the children, the elderly, (with the exception of Daughter J) the women, and any who are at the mercy of evil.
As I see it, allowing a child to be harmed and trumatized is just a bad as those who serve their own desires or callousness.

Still, if possible, it's better to avoid taking a life, while protecting life.

I'm a 7th trump post-tribber, so I expect trouble and persecution to ensue - even natural catastrophes.
These are not the wrath of God, though.

We are promised through the blood and the Spirit, that we are not subject to His wrath.
Even after all the trouble, God's wrath are the seven bowls and we will be in His presence and safety when they are poured upon the earth.

Woe to they who dwell on the earth at that time. They have already made their choice.

Richard


So your telling me if you were out in the wilderness during the tribulation and you saw a patrol that you knew would find a hide out that housed say 100 children and women. You knew the patrol would find the people and murder them after torturing them, and you had the chance to ambush/kill the patrol you wouldn't?

Dani H
Oct 25th 2008, 05:13 PM
Gates are defensive. "The gates of hell not prevailing against the Church" does not mean the Church is under attack from hell - it means hell is under attack through the Church.

The defensive gates of hell have not prevailed against the true Church ever since Jesus established His true Church - because hell has been losing souls.

ananias

Combine that with "The Kingdom of God suffers violence, and the violent take it by force."

Should we hide out? Or go on the offense? Does God wait for satan? Or is God the one Who moves, and satan the one who frantically scrambles around trying to maintain territory?

We are to occupy until He comes. To me, that's military terminology. Occupy what? Enemy territory. Is Jesus the Lord of Hosts? The Lion of the tribe of Judah? The King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Does He not live within us? Do we not always triumph in Him?

The only place I will hide is under the shadow of God's wings, that is my hiding place. God Himself is my shelter. I will continue to do what I've always done, which is wrestle over souls, on the offense spiritually, as God directs, up until the last minute, whenever that is. Because those who seek to keep their life, will lose it. And those who lose their life for His sake, will find it. :)

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 05:36 PM
So your telling me if you were out in the wilderness during the tribulation and you saw a patrol that you knew would find a hide out that housed say 100 children and women. You knew the patrol would find the people and murder them after torturing them, and you had the chance to ambush/kill the patrol you wouldn't?
Hypothetical situations are just that – hypothetical.
You ask - me not to understand my answer, but to trap me.

First, you assume that I will be hiding in the wilderness.
Second, you assume that alerting those hidden - before the patrol can get there - is not an option.
Third, you assume that the attack of one man would be able to successfully defeat an entire patrol.

Should I discover myself in such a situation, I would have additional information to form an acceptable plan of action.
Perhaps, I might even distract the patrol to chase me in a different direction from the children.
For certain, I would not hide and wait while the defenseless were being accosted.

Richard

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 05:39 PM
Hypothetical situations are just that – hypothetical.
You ask - me not to understand my answer, but to trap me.

First, you assume that I will be hiding in the wilderness.
Second, you assume that alerting those hidden before the patrol can get there - is not an option.
Third, you assume that the attack of one man would be able to successfully defeat an entire patrol.

Should I discover myself in such a situation, I would have additional information to form an acceptable plan of action.
Perhaps, I might even distract the patrol to chase me in a different direction from the children.
For certain, I would not hide and wait while the defenseless were being accosted.

Richard

Not trying to trap you but rather understand your thought process. I do not understand how people could be unwilling to fight back, it just does not compute in my mind. I see it rather as a form of taking relgious verses to far, I do not believe that God expects us to stand there and do nothing while innocents are brutally murdered.

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 05:49 PM
Not trying to trap you but rather understand your thought process. I do not understand how people could be unwilling to fight back, it just does not compute in my mind. I see it rather as a form of taking relgious verses to far, I do not believe that God expects us to stand there and do nothing while innocents are brutally murdered.Ok. Then. I should not have assumed you were trying to trap me.
'Sorry about that. :blushsad:

I would follow the teachings of Jesus and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I don't believe as the quakers do - in total non-violence.
That just empowers the unjust.

In a situation where my life is endangered because I follow Christ, I wouldnt jump out hollering "Here I am!" - but if He calls me to lay down my life for His sake - I'd like to think I'd be willing.
When other people are involved in the equation, the situation become more complicated.

Richard

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 05:53 PM
Ok. Then. I should not have assumed you were trying to trap me.
'Sorry about that. :blushsad:

I would follow the teachings of Jesus and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
I don't believe as the quakers do in total non-violence.
That just empowers the unjust.

In a situation where my life is endangered because I follow Christ, I wouldnt jump out hollering "Here I am!" - but if He calls me to lay down my life for His sake - I'd like to think I'd be willing.
When other people are involved in the equation, the situation become more complicated.

Richard
Exactly,

I dont think it is near as black and white as some people make it out to be. I mean man it would be great if we didn't have to fight at all but, when I meet some Christians who tell me "I don't care if someone came in my house and killed my family fighting back is still wrong" I can't help but laugh/wonder (maybe it is wrong to laugh but I am human).

I just think people go a little to far. I mean it is complicated, I however do not think God would frown on you taking the lives of those trying to kill you in order to protect others.

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 06:05 PM
Exactly,

I dont think it is near as black and white as some people make it out to be. I mean man it would be great if we didn't have to fight at all but, when I meet some Christians who tell me "I don't care if someone came in my house and killed my family fighting back is still wrong" I can't help but laugh/wonder (maybe it is wrong to laugh but I am human).

I just think people go a little to far. I mean it is complicated, I however do not think God would frown on you taking the lives of those trying to kill you in order to protect others.I would look for other options without killing. Even as I said - leading the patrol away.
To protect someone else, I might break an arm or take out a knee if absolutely needed - but killing (to me), is just not an option.

If read the words of Jesus, He really didn't give exclusions.

Richard

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 06:10 PM
There are also ways of restraining a person, without striking them.
Ju Jitsu would be an option.
I've used some moves like that before - taking down someone bigger and stronger and knocking the wind out of them so they stayed on the ground for several minutes.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 25th 2008, 08:28 PM
I agree with ya Richard,

About
but killing (to me), is just not an option.

And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Luke 6:29

And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. Luke 12:4

Go well

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 08:30 PM
I would look for other options without killing. Even as I said - leading the patrol away.
To protect someone else, I might break an arm or take out a knee if absolutely needed - but killing (to me), is just not an option.

If read the words of Jesus, He really didn't give exclusions.

Richard


This is unrelated and maybe should be asked in a PM, but if this is your view how do you equate for cops or military members who kill in the line of duty?

BroRog
Oct 25th 2008, 08:46 PM
I plan on having a prayer meeting over by the razor wire. You can join me if you want.

Ethnikos
Oct 25th 2008, 09:40 PM
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. Luke 12:4
You have to be careful about how you react to things and events.
Before the ultimate take over, there will be massive restrictions on the internet and radio, to limit communications and to make it hard for anyone to mount a coordinated resistance.
Small actions will then take place, so that the forces can concentrate on one area at a time. All roads will be blocked and special permits will be required to pass through.
Think about what happened at Waco, how they controlled what false information got out and they shot anyone trying to get back to the compound. It will just be on a bigger scale.
Once it comes down, on your area, you have to be able to move around within it or just stay in one spot, until the circus moves out of town. When they do, they will leave the collaborators behind to snitch out any non-compliant humans. Hint: citizens with gov. issued papers are called civilians and "humans" are something with no rights (in new-speak).
All this tactical stuff is to get rid of the blatant resisters, in preparation for the serious thing that we should be concerned with. That is the spiritual warfare that involves something like what happened to the three friends of Daniel, in the plain of Dura. The Talmud has a nice ending to the story, where the people who bowed down, were all killed once Nebuchadnezzar realized he had gone against the true God.

Richard H
Oct 25th 2008, 11:07 PM
This is unrelated and maybe should be asked in a PM, but if this is your view how do you equate for cops or military members who kill in the line of duty?PM sent. :)
Anyone interested in my reply can PM me.
Just in case inquiring saints want to know. ;)

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 12:49 AM
Because of threads like this, it makes me very glad I am not post-trib.

Those that think killing others in this situation is ok...provide no scriptures at all to back this up. Instead we find every scriptures saying the opposite. The bible says the beast WILL have authority over the saints. There is no fighting back. The passages don't say the saint overcome by fighting back...or the saints killed any the beast's follower...nothing at all is implied. If we are to take scripture seriously we have no choices here...God has given the beast authority over the believers during this time. Who is in control here...Him or us?

Romans 8:
35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”

Someone already posted the verse on if you love your life you will lose it..and many others. I see no other verses showing we should physically fight back. What if you risk your salvation in not trusting God knows what He is doing and try to hang onto your physical life?

John 12:25
Those who love their life in this world will lose it. Those who care nothing for their life in this world will keep it for eternity.

There is nothing in scriptures that says we should try to live to witness to anyone. I think by this point those that don't believe will have the mark already anyway...I see nothing in scriptures that suggests the mark can be removed..they that change their minds due to our witnessing.

Second if God's Word isn't enough...lets look at how Jesus did not fight back when arrested and nailed to the cross...is He not our example? What about Steven who was stoned to death? Did he try to fight back? What about Paul...jailed, beaten, whipped countless times...did he ever physically fight back? Was he fighting on his way to have his head cut off? What about Peter? He did start to leave Rome...to flee....Christians all around him were being slaughtered...Christ appeared to him and he went back to be hung on the cross upside down as he didn't feel worthy enough to be hung right like our Savior. What about all the others then and throughout history? Including women, children, the elderly...they did not fight back. There is just nothing at all in the teachings on this about fighting back.

Dying for what we believe in, IS our greatest testimony. Why does no one get that?

We sure don't want to be like the extremist mulism terrorist that die killing others...:(

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.


There is no comparing this to whether a Christian can be fighting in a war either...these are two totally seperate things...we aren't suppose to be defending a country or a people...and its certainly not localized...its global. This is the big 'game is over' time..the end of the world. There is no fighting to survive to live for another day and the world goes on...this is the final act. This is spiritual warfare and you can't fight spiritual warfare like you do physical warfare. This is the deciding factor on where you are going to be spending the rest of eternity.

God bless

Rufus_1611
Oct 26th 2008, 01:27 AM
The thing is there is nothing in the bible instructing us to hide out...

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished." - Proverbs 22:3


we have two choices...take the mark or be killed refusing. There is nothing else. I don't know why anyone would want to live in the world that many paint the picture on here of becoming anyway. Though some argue there will be survivors...I hope I am not one of them. (though I don't even share this end time view so I don't worry about it at all)

Anyway...I am sure you will get many that agree with you and will help you map things out as many have done similar posts before too.


God bless

Alyssa S
Oct 26th 2008, 01:28 AM
One thing I've been thinking about a lot is what will happen when the new world order is established. As Christians, where would we hide out? Obviously everyone who doesn't have the mark will be considered the worst criminal and will have to hide ferociously from the government. I think the church would really truly have to come together and become one body of believers and hide out in parks and caves and underground bunkers.

It's very interesting but it gets a person thinking.

You'd have people that would take turns at a post watching for guards or security that they wouldn't find you, and you'd have others that would run for firewood and supplies; you couldn't carry a cell-phone or gps or any other device that works with satellite or radio frequencies lest they pinpoint you; perhaps a smart computer-savvy Christian could figure out how to unscramble the old analog airwaves (everything goes digital in February and analog is being retired) and use it for communication between hideouts? Non-stop prayer and worship? Man...we should really be planning for such things!


This is a very valid question, and one I have been thinking quite a bit about lately, as I am a post tribber.

I have been having some dreams lately that are pretty amazing regarding the last days. They are not really oppressive as I don't wake up scared or worn out... but they do involve survival, war and natural disasters. They are very realistic. I had one amazing dream about a week ago where the sky had gone pitch black, and a massive white light engulfed the blackness. I felt a magnetic force against my chest as if my body was being sucked out of itself (soul/spirit from the flesh). I then shot up into the sky. The dream was all of about 2 seconds long... but very detailed. In my dream, as I was sucked up into the sky I was taking a big inhalation of air and this is when I raised up in my bed...also gasping for air. (Nothing painful)

It was so incredibly realistic that I couldn't understand why I was still in my flesh and in my bed. I am convinced this was a dream of the Resurrection/Rapture on the Last Day. It was the most amazing dream I have ever had... because I actually FELT it. There is no way to fully describe it...but it was a gift from the Lord.

Anyhoo.... I DO think about the last days frequently. And I often wonder if I should prepare as in learning survival techniques... or if I should just completely wait on God like the Israelites waited on their manna from heaven. Not sure how I feel about it. But... where I stand now, I think it should be a little of both. Preparation AND faith.

Good post!

God bless,
Alyssa

P.S. Anyone come up with a survival plan? Maybe we could make a book!! :D

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 01:43 AM
Dying for what we believe in, IS our greatest testimony. Yes.
I believe a Christian's purpose is to give testimony - to be a witness of our faith and trust - the outcome of that testimony is in God's hands.

As for fleeing, Jesus DID give this "advice".
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:
Matthew 10:19-23

In the final days, I see little point to this - unless you had others who were depending on you, but God would know of them and He is faithful.

Richard

Alyssa S
Oct 26th 2008, 03:04 AM
Okay... Maybe instead of running to the woods at the Tribulation we should "Run to the Battle." I just found this video posted below. :D


“Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell; but I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!”

I hope I'm that brave!! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL7cL_p5_84

God bless,
Alyssa

JesusMySavior
Oct 26th 2008, 03:33 AM
Okay... Maybe instead of running to the woods at the Tribulation we should "Run to the Battle." I just found this video posted below. :D


“Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell; but I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!”

I hope I'm that brave!! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL7cL_p5_84

God bless,
Alyssa


Ha, Amen to that! :idea:

Ethnikos
Oct 26th 2008, 05:08 AM
The most pressing survival problem right now, from what I hear, is the new "flu" vaccine. To get an idea of how dangerous it is, The US has restricted shipment of it to countries we consider un-friendly because the viruses can be made into bio-weapons. What is in it is the bird flu in a weaponized form. What this means is that the DNA can recombine with another virus, in your body, and kill you. So, if you already have a flu, and you take the vaccine, you die.
The laws have been arranged so that (thank Hillary) they can knowingly give you a deadly dose, and no one can be held liable.
They have a set-up to use postal carriers to bring medicine house-to-house because they expect most people to come down with some form of deadly flu, like there was back during WWI.
Whatever vaccines you have in you, right now, figure they will be good for the rest of your life (they probably are, it is a lie that they are only good for three years). Any that will be given, from now on, are only warfare agents, meant to destroy any feelings of resistance. (watch V For Vendetta about how insensitive to human suffering sociopathic power freaks are)

CoffeeCat
Oct 26th 2008, 05:31 AM
I don't believe we'll be here for the chaos, in that I don't believe it'll be in our lifetime. But eventually, sometime in the future, I imagine SOMEONE will have to deal with all of this when it does start to unfold. In terms of the "end times", I'm not sure exactly where I stand in terms of pre-trib or post-trib... I'm "pan trib" -- I think God'll make it all pan out.

So while I don't share the OP's view, I can "put on that hat" and think about it anyhow. As a hypothetical, then, if I ask myself the question "what would unmarked Christians do in the last days?" I can think of a few options....

- die proclaiming Christ the way thousands of Christians have before us.
- don't bother hiding out; are we afraid to stand up for our faith? If you're found hiding, you're killed anyways. Are we so scared of death that putting it off for a short time is that worth it, that we'd hide and keep our mouths shut?
- if we can, help those in need: organize what food and medical relief there is, and get it out to people.
- proclaim the gospel to those who seek to destroy it. (Hey, that's what we're CALLED to do.)

Like Moonglow, I don't get the "hiding out" thing either. If Christians ever DO get to the point where we're being persecuted and tortured and killed by some sort of anti-Christ organization, I can only hope I'd be bold enough to go boldly. We're Christ's. While the logical side of me can't imagine God subjecting us to that.... if He does... then we're supposed to step up for Him and serve Him, no matter how dangerous that is. Not hide, and not kill others who are trying to kill us.

Just my 0.02.

IamRyan
Oct 26th 2008, 05:46 AM
Idk about anyone else, but I am all about excitement and this type of rebeltry. Don't get me wrong, I love my life. But one reason the end times maybe being soon is good would be so I wouldn't have to try in school anymore and I could just concentrate on God and surviving.

Also, I totally believe that never going down easy is a way of life. I would for sure try to survive till the end, I mean why not? Your going to be in heaven soon anyway, so you might as well try to live for God as long as possible on this Earth. Like, I always imagined myself not being allowed to be executed. In the days of old when you would walk to the scaffold with the nooses or guillotine there, I would always try to make a run for it.

Veretax
Oct 26th 2008, 12:32 PM
THe problem is, if indeed we are here during those times and it is the Lord's will that we suffer, and become martyred for his name, what makes us finite human beings think we can escape God's Plan? How'd that work for Jonah?

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 01:05 PM
And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
Revelation 14:13

Ethnikos
Oct 26th 2008, 01:58 PM
Like Moonglow, I don't get the "hiding out" thing either.

Jesus said, "when you see these things, flee."
The Christians were not to stay in the city for the whole siege and be caught up in wholesale slaughter at the hands of angry frustrated Roman soldiers. There was more that was known at the time, among the Christians of Israel, than we know now, concerning specifics, that allowed them to escape in large numbers.
It is just a fact of war that if the invading or occupying force encounters an area of resistance, they end up leaving no survivors.
You may have an inaccurate concept of how you will be killed, as if it was something halfway reasonable and had a face. Most likely it would be a remote controlled drone device that deals massive destruction.
It may be delusional to imagine anything different by turning yourself in. You will not come face to face with anyone who has any ability to react in any meaningful way to any argument or rationality. The real people who have any power will be isolated completely from the actual goings on. The one you would encounter are mindless brainwashed minions with almost no intelligence or normal feelings.
There is no glory or honor or dignity or even any earthly witnesses to what will happen to you, if you submit. Just a pit.
This is only my opinion and take it for what it is.
Make use of the time while it is day. No use just waiting for the stuff to come down. If you want to witness, do it now, and forget about what you may or may not be able to do at a very late date in the history of this world.

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 02:20 PM
Okay... Maybe instead of running to the woods at the Tribulation we should "Run to the Battle." I just found this video posted below. :D


“Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell; but I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!”

I hope I'm that brave!! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL7cL_p5_84

God bless,
Alyssa

There is no scriptures saying we should battle anyone...I mean seriously..why fight for an earth that God is going to destroy? We aren't fighting for our 'freedom' like in that clip...we aren't to fight for the kingdom of God...there is no scriptures saying we should do this.

Luke 17:20-22

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

To violently fight anyone because we are being attacked for our faith.....our beliefs goes against everything Jesus teaches. You won't fight one scriptures to back up this idea. Sorry.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 02:42 PM
Yes.
I believe a Christian's purpose is to give testimony - to be a witness of our faith and trust - the outcome of that testimony is in God's hands.

As for fleeing, Jesus DID give this "advice".
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:
Matthew 10:19-23

In the final days, I see little point to this - unless you had others who were depending on you, but God would know of them and He is faithful.

Richard

Good post...but when you look at that verse in content...meaning what was going on at that time in history? We see the disciples...the world, still had a future. Several thousand yeas in fact. But the time we reach the tribulation, this is the end of the world....there is no future. Second, if the tribulation is world wide like you all believe, there will be no place to flee too!

The mountains will be falling due to earthquakes...hiding in cave among them will crush anyone in them. The forest, woods will be burning. The water will be poisoned. Giant hail will be falling. Where would we flee too that would be safe? Plus those working for the beast...


Ethnikos
Survival Tips
The most pressing survival problem right now, from what I hear, is the new "flu" vaccine. To get an idea of how dangerous it is, The US has restricted shipment of it to countries we consider un-friendly because the viruses can be made into bio-weapons. What is in it is the bird flu in a weaponized form. What this means is that the DNA can recombine with another virus, in your body, and kill you. So, if you already have a flu, and you take the vaccine, you die.
The laws have been arranged so that (thank Hillary) they can knowingly give you a deadly dose, and no one can be held liable.
They have a set-up to use postal carriers to bring medicine house-to-house because they expect most people to come down with some form of deadly flu, like there was back during WWI.
Whatever vaccines you have in you, right now, figure they will be good for the rest of your life (they probably are, it is a lie that they are only good for three years). Any that will be given, from now on, are only warfare agents, meant to destroy any feelings of resistance. (watch V For Vendetta about how insensitive to human suffering sociopathic power freaks are)

You got anything to back any of this information up with? :hmm:


CoffeeCat I don't believe we'll be here for the chaos, in that I don't believe it'll be in our lifetime. But eventually, sometime in the future, I imagine SOMEONE will have to deal with all of this when it does start to unfold. In terms of the "end times", I'm not sure exactly where I stand in terms of pre-trib or post-trib... I'm "pan trib" -- I think God'll make it all pan out.

So while I don't share the OP's view, I can "put on that hat" and think about it anyhow. As a hypothetical, then, if I ask myself the question "what would unmarked Christians do in the last days?" I can think of a few options....

- die proclaiming Christ the way thousands of Christians have before us.
- don't bother hiding out; are we afraid to stand up for our faith? If you're found hiding, you're killed anyways. Are we so scared of death that putting it off for a short time is that worth it, that we'd hide and keep our mouths shut?
- if we can, help those in need: organize what food and medical relief there is, and get it out to people.
- proclaim the gospel to those who seek to destroy it. (Hey, that's what we're CALLED to do.)

Like Moonglow, I don't get the "hiding out" thing either. If Christians ever DO get to the point where we're being persecuted and tortured and killed by some sort of anti-Christ organization, I can only hope I'd be bold enough to go boldly. We're Christ's. While the logical side of me can't imagine God subjecting us to that.... if He does... then we're supposed to step up for Him and serve Him, no matter how dangerous that is. Not hide, and not kill others who are trying to kill us.

Just my 0.02.

Revelation 7

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


“ Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Amen.

God bless

jesuslover1968
Oct 26th 2008, 02:57 PM
Well, number one, Christians will be raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins, and those who convert after that time will be the ones who go through the horrors of the trib.
Number two, what I have seen so far in the posts here is a lack of understanding of how things are really going to be.
The people left will be dealing with a man, the antiChrist, who has the power of satan behind him. To think you can hide is just a little bit fantasy-minded. This is real life, not some Stephen King movie. If the ac wants to find you, he will, hiding will do no good.
As far as killing anyone goes, if you kill with the sword, you will die by the sword. Killing them is not an option we have even though our fallen human natures tell us to fight to the death. The ones left after the rapture did not accept Jesus, that's why they are still on earth. That's why they will go through the tribulation. Yes, God COULD protect them, but we are told that many will perish. The tribulation is the wrath of God, not the wrath of satan, as many would have you believe. satan has to have permission for every little thing he does, from God. God is in charge, just like He is right now. The things that happen could be stopped by God, but He will not stop them because it will further His plans, which are to punish the ungodly.

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 03:13 PM
Idk about anyone else, but I am all about excitement and this type of rebeltry. Don't get me wrong, I love my life. But one reason the end times maybe being soon is good would be so I wouldn't have to try in school anymore and I could just concentrate on God and surviving.

Also, I totally believe that never going down easy is a way of life. I would for sure try to survive till the end, I mean why not? Your going to be in heaven soon anyway, so you might as well try to live for God as long as possible on this Earth. Like, I always imagined myself not being allowed to be executed. In the days of old when you would walk to the scaffold with the nooses or guillotine there, I would always try to make a run for it.

This is a deeply concerning post! This is why I so dislike those post, 'the end is near!"..people stop living and stop doing what they are suppose to be doing here. Where does it say in the bible to try to live as long as possible for God? When our physical life here is over...its not over! We go on.

Going to school and working, and yes even cleaning house IS doing God's work! There are so many scriptures on working for instance and not being lazy and expecting hand outs. How can we work if we don't have a good education? In our schools, our jobs, our running simply errands, we are to reflect Christ in our lives. People are drawn to that and it gives us a chance to witness. Not too mention learning to use our God given minds. I find it deeply distrubing anyone would want the tribulation to come just to get out of school work...:confused


Veretax THe problem is, if indeed we are here during those times and it is the Lord's will that we suffer, and become martyred for his name, what makes us finite human beings think we can escape God's Plan? How'd that work for Jonah?

Good post.


Ethnikos

Jesus said, "when you see these things, flee."
The Christians were not to stay in the city for the whole siege and be caught up in wholesale slaughter at the hands of angry frustrated Roman soldiers. There was more that was known at the time, among the Christians of Israel, than we know now, concerning specifics, that allowed them to escape in large numbers.
It is just a fact of war that if the invading or occupying force encounters an area of resistance, they end up leaving no survivors.
You may have an inaccurate concept of how you will be killed, as if it was something halfway reasonable and had a face. Most likely it would be a remote controlled drone device that deals massive destruction.
It may be delusional to imagine anything different by turning yourself in. You will not come face to face with anyone who has any ability to react in any meaningful way to any argument or rationality. The real people who have any power will be isolated completely from the actual goings on. The one you would encounter are mindless brainwashed minions with almost no intelligence or normal feelings.
There is no glory or honor or dignity or even any earthly witnesses to what will happen to you, if you submit. Just a pit.
This is only my opinion and take it for what it is.
Make use of the time while it is day. No use just waiting for the stuff to come down. If you want to witness, do it now, and forget about what you may or may not be able to do at a very late date in the history of this world.

The first half of your post was based on facts, of true events...the first Christians knew of Jesus' words to flee the city when it was surrounded by the Roman army...they had surrounded it but then Nero, back in Rome committed suicide and ...well read:

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
Our Lord had ordered his followers to make their escape from Jerusalem when they should see it encompassed with armies; but how could this be done? God took care to provide amply for this. In the twelfth year of Nero, Cestius Gallus, the president of Syria, came against Jerusalem with a powerful army. He might, says Josephus, WAR, b. ii. c. 19, have assaulted and taken the city, and thereby put an end to the war; but without any just reason, and contrary to the expectation of all, he raised the siege and departed. Josephus remarks, that after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, "many of the principal Jewish people, forsook the city, as men do a sinking ship."

Vespasian was deputed in the room of Cestius Gallus, who, having subdued all the country, prepared to besiege Jerusalem, and invested it on every side. But the news of Nero's death, and soon after that of Galba, and the disturbances that followed, and the civil wars between Otho and Vitellius, held Vespasian and his son Titus in suspense. Thus the city was not actually besieged in form till after Vespasian was confirmed in the empire, and Titus was appointed to command the forces in Judea. It was in those incidental delays that the Christians, and indeed several others, provided for their own safety, by flight.

In Luke 19:43, our Lord says of Jerusalem, Thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side. Accordingly, Titus, having made several assaults without success, resolved to surround the city with a wall, which was, with incredible speed, completed in three days! The wall was thirty-nine furlongs in length, and was strengthened with thirteen forts at proper distances, so that all hope of safety was cut off; none could make his escape from the city, and no provisions could be brought into it. See Josephus, WAR, book v. c. 12.
**********************
Every believer fled...as Jesus told them to do...
Matthew 24
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

There homes had flat roofs and people were constantly on their roofs for different reason...they could see beyond the city walls when they were on their roofs too and see the army coming. those in the field would be alerted..most likely the watchmen blew their horns like we read about in the OT. The army backed off and they had their chance to leave. In this they were spared the wrath of God.

Verse 16. Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains
This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished.

I do agree we need to be witnessing now. People seem to think that they should try to live to continue witnessing but I don't see new believers coming about during the tribulation...or those that have the mark that are able to change their minds and be saved. We need to remember the verse on those being given a strong delusion.

God bless

Veretax
Oct 26th 2008, 03:27 PM
Jesus said, "when you see these things, flee."
The Christians were not to stay in the city for the whole siege and be caught up in wholesale slaughter at the hands of angry frustrated Roman soldiers. There was more that was known at the time, among the Christians of Israel, than we know now, concerning specifics, that allowed them to escape in large numbers.
It is just a fact of war that if the invading or occupying force encounters an area of resistance, they end up leaving no survivors.
You may have an inaccurate concept of how you will be killed, as if it was something halfway reasonable and had a face. Most likely it would be a remote controlled drone device that deals massive destruction.
It may be delusional to imagine anything different by turning yourself in. You will not come face to face with anyone who has any ability to react in any meaningful way to any argument or rationality. The real people who have any power will be isolated completely from the actual goings on. The one you would encounter are mindless brainwashed minions with almost no intelligence or normal feelings.
There is no glory or honor or dignity or even any earthly witnesses to what will happen to you, if you submit. Just a pit.
This is only my opinion and take it for what it is.
Make use of the time while it is day. No use just waiting for the stuff to come down. If you want to witness, do it now, and forget about what you may or may not be able to do at a very late date in the history of this world.


I believe Jesus was referring to the sacking of the temple, and Jerusalem, which has already happened now. I see no qualification in end times scriptures for provision to "escape" except to refuse the mark and trust in Christ, and even then they won't likely be able to escape physically.

Richard H
Oct 26th 2008, 04:02 PM
I believe Jesus was referring to the sacking of the temple, and Jerusalem, which has already happened now. I see no qualification in end times scriptures for provision to "escape" except to refuse the mark and trust in Christ, and even then they won't likely be able to escape physically.Apparently some will survive.
Although, I don't think it will be easy or pleasent.

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Ethnikos
Oct 26th 2008, 04:34 PM
You got anything to back any of this information up with? :hmm:
I will add some info, as I find it, to this post. I first heard about this on the Power Hour radio show. They had some scientists on to talk about it and mentioned some searchable documents. I have not looked for any yet but I will now. To start with, I will mention a fact I alluded to on the Biden thread.

"Powerful generals and admirals from some of the most powerful nations on Earth are reportedly meeting somewhere in the local area this weekend after flying into the Adirondack Regional Airport in Lake Clear on Friday." http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/503035.html (http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/503035.html)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/jmdewey60/TruedauInstitute.jpghttp://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/jmdewey60/Aderondacairport.jpg

"Saranac Lake, N.Y., – Dr. David L. Woodland, president and director of the Trudeau Institute, announced today that President Bush has signed into law the Consolidated Security, Disaster Assistance, and Continuing Appropriations Act, 2009 (H.R. 2638), which includes $1.6 million in additional research funding to support a joint program between scientists at the Trudeau Institute and the U.S. Navy to develop a pandemic influenza vaccine." http://trudeauinstitute.org/dynamicPages/pressReleases.cfm?action=view&listingID=118&ID=100&navTable=tier2nav

The airport (upper left of center, in picture above) that the Nato leaders landed in, is about eight miles from the Trudeau Institute.(A) Could there be a crises expected in the near future, concerning an airborne virus epidemic?

"We have found letter carriers to be the federal government's quickest and surest way of getting pills to whole communities." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/01/ST2008100102936.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/01/ST2008100102936.html)

"Yet deep inside an 86-page supplement to United States export regulations is a single sentence that bars U.S. exports of vaccines for avian bird flu and dozens of other viruses to five countries designated "state sponsors of terrorism." The reason: Fear that they will be used for biological warfare." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081011/ap_on_re_as/as_bird_flu_biological_warfare

"This move provides the manufacturers, distributors, and others, of 'anti-terrorism' drugs and vaccines immunity from lawsuits, should injuries or deaths occur due to the drugs or vaccines." http://www.legitgov.org/HHS_declares_health_emergencies.html

"The sequences with the cluster of changes evolved from the Brisbane/59 sub-clade that was dominant in northern Europe in 2007/2008. The result from South Africa suggests this sub-clade continues to evolve and expand. Some countries still have other H1N1 sub-clade in circulation, but the countries reporting H274Y levels at or near 100% of H1N1 isolates suggests this change will soon be fixed in H1N1 worldwide." http://www.recombinomics.com/News/10190802/H274Y_Fixing_Additional.html

What this is pointing out is that the newly evolved forms of bird flu are resistant to Tamiflu and this is where you find it necessary to produce new vaccines that may be less than safe but would be used anyway in the event of a heath emergency.

"The first human trial of a DNA vaccine designed to prevent H5N1 avian influenza infection began on December 21, 2006," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070103201449.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070103201449.htm)

The way I understand this, is that they proposed that giving you just the DNA of a deadly flu would be safe. From what I heard, if you already have a type of flu in you when you get the shot, the bird flu DNA can link up with the other virus' DNA and become deadly. I have not yet found the documentation to support this. My understanding is that this year's flu vaccine has the deadly bird in it. I have not found that documentation yet, either. My Survival tip would be to ask to look at the information sheet, that all drugs are required to have available, and look for these designations, such as H5N1. If this is on the list, think twice. Tip #2: You can stay home and not let anyone in your house for two weeks, in the event of a flu epidemic and that sounds a lot safer than being injected with who knows what. This also goes back to having some food in your house.

"Federal officials are already stockpiling a prepandemic vaccine based on the H5N1 virus." http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/news/oct0608gao-br.html (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/news/oct0608gao-br.html)

"(NaturalNews) In a shocking article (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/cbsnews_investigates/main4296175.shtml) from a mainstream media source, CBS News, it is reported that some of the biggest vaccine promoters and defenders have very strong financial ties to the vaccine industry, to put it mildly."

"They have recreated the virus that caused the 1918 flu pandemic to better understand it, says Dr. Julie Gerberding, director of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." http://lacrossetribune.com/articles/2008/09/05/news/00lead.txt

"...nearly 60% of health care workers fail to get a flu shot." http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-10-16-flu-shot_N.htm?csp=34

Alyssa S
Oct 26th 2008, 09:24 PM
There is no scriptures saying we should battle anyone...
To violently fight anyone because we are being attacked for our faith.....our beliefs goes against everything Jesus teaches. You won't fight one scriptures to back up this idea. Sorry.

God bless

I will have to respectfully, but radically disagree with you on some parts, Moonglow.


I mean seriously..why fight for an earth that God is going to destroy?
Who said anything about fighting for the EARTH? This has nothing to do with the earth or the world. It is about the Kingdom!



There is no scriptures saying we should battle anyone...


There is no scripture? Are you serious? The Old Testament is LOADED with Scriptures about battles. David battled Goliath. Israel fought the Amalekites, Joshua led Israel against the Canaannites, they battled the Philistines and so on. You may say that the Ten Commandments instruct one not to murder, but murder and battle are two different things. Under normal circumstances, capital punishment and killing during warfare were not considered murder. Capital punishment was a part of the covenant itself (Exodus 21:12-17)

There are close to 100 or more power verses from the Bible on the "battle verses" showing that God will come to our defense and either fight or help us fight against enemies that are trying to harm, attack or kill us. Many people don’t realize that God the Father has an incredible War Side to His personality and that He won’t hesitate to go into battle to protect His own.

There is even going to be a great war on the Last Day when Jesus returns in all of his glory. So to say that there are no Scriptures to support the Christian in battle is simply false.




We aren't fighting for our 'freedom' like in that clip...we aren't to fight for the kingdom of God...there is no scriptures saying we should do this.


Again, I would have to disagree with you. We certainly ARE to fight for the Kingdom of God! If the purpose is to get the Gospel out, how can we do it if we are locked up in prison during the Trib or dead? Of course, Paul did it from prison, and it could possibly happen in the Trib... but chances are, we take the mark or die...why NOT fight for our freedom in order to continue sharing the gospel? That's what this country has done for us for many years in order to be FREE to worship our LORD today! If it is the Lord's will for me to be martyred, so be it. But I am certainly not going to voluntarily place my head on a platter... they will have to TAKE it! Do not misunderstand me, I AM willing to be a martyr for Christ. But I will go down, I pray, fighting for the TRUTH! THAT is our duty!



Luke 17:20-22

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”


Is your point in giving this verse to say that their is no future "Kingdom of God" that will descend upon the earth?

Moonglow, Luke, only, records an episode in which Jesus says that the Kingdom is already "in your midst". To take this single passage to mean that the Kingdom has now fully arrived and has no future reality is not only to contradict the rest of the New Testament but to make Luke inconsistent; for only a few verses later he is describing the Coming of Christ in terms of lightning flashing from east to west, and he later defines this spectacular and universally visible event as the coming of the Kingdom of God (Luke 21:31).

Yes, the Kingdom of God is within us, but this is a "seed," a type of forshadowing of what is ultimately to come... forshadowing is a recurring theme of Scripture. I have salvation now... but the full reality of that will not happen until Jesus resurrects me.

James 2:5: We are now "heirs of the Kingdom of God which God has promised to them that love Him" (as often elsewhere in the epistles, heirs now, inheritors then).

I Cor. 15:50: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God...

Jesus himself said to pray for the Kingdom to COME!
Matt 6:10: "your Kingdom Come, your will be done on EARTH as it is in heaven."

Moonglow, I am not suggesting that we go out with our bibles preaching the message, while carrying and AR-17 on our back. But that may be what is required in order to survive in the TRIBULATION. I have absolutely no problem using it to protect myself and loved ones from being thrown in a paper shredder to be mutilated. Yes, I will fight. And I have plenty of Scripture to back me up. Sorry. ;)

God bless,

Alyssa

Athanasius
Oct 26th 2008, 09:43 PM
Wonder how many demons it takes to hunt "rebel" Christians... What, you thought the anti-Christ simply had a physical government?

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 26th 2008, 09:51 PM
I am not suggesting that we go out with our bibles preaching the message, while carrying and AR-17 on our back. But that may be what is required in order to survive in the TRIBULATION. I have absolutely no problem using it to protect myself and loved ones from being thrown in a paper shredder to be mutilated. Yes, I will fight. And I have plenty of Scripture to back me up. Sorry.
I can`t imagine this.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/1827/jesusgun1qj8.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jesusgun1qj8.jpg)


And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Luke 6:29

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

ph33r
Oct 26th 2008, 09:55 PM
I can`t imagine this.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/1827/jesusgun1qj8.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jesusgun1qj8.jpg)


And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also. Luke 6:29

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Maybe it is wrong but that made me really laugh.

ph33r
Oct 26th 2008, 09:57 PM
I will have to respectfully, but radically disagree with you on some parts, Moonglow.


Who said anything about fighting for the EARTH? This has nothing to do with the earth or the world. It is about the Kingdom!


There is no scripture? Are you serious? The Old Testament is LOADED with Scriptures about battles. David battled Goliath. Israel fought the Amalekites, Joshua led Israel against the Canaannites, they battled the Philistines and so on. You may say that the Ten Commandments instruct one not to murder, but murder and battle are two different things. Under normal circumstances, capital punishment and killing during warfare were not considered murder. Capital punishment was a part of the covenant itself (Exodus 21:12-17)

There are close to 100 or more power verses from the Bible on the "battle verses" showing that God will come to our defense and either fight or help us fight against enemies that are trying to harm, attack or kill us. Many people don’t realize that God the Father has an incredible War Side to His personality and that He won’t hesitate to go into battle to protect His own.

There is even going to be a great war on the Last Day when Jesus returns in all of his glory. So to say that there are no Scriptures to support the Christian in battle is simply false.




Again, I would have to disagree with you. We certainly ARE to fight for the Kingdom of God! If the purpose is to get the Gospel out, how can we do it if we are locked up in prison during the Trib or dead? Of course, Paul did it from prison, and it could possibly happen in the Trib... but chances are, we take the mark or die...why NOT fight for our freedom in order to continue sharing the gospel? That's what this country has done for us for many years in order to be FREE to worship our LORD today! If it is the Lord's will for me to be martyred, so be it. But I am certainly not going to voluntarily place my head on a platter... they will have to TAKE it! Do not misunderstand me, I AM willing to be a martyr for Christ. But I will go down, I pray, fighting for the TRUTH! THAT is our duty!



Is your point in giving this verse to say that their is no future "Kingdom of God" that will descend upon the earth?

Moonglow, Luke, only, records an episode in which Jesus says that the Kingdom is already "in your midst". To take this single passage to mean that the Kingdom has now fully arrived and has no future reality is not only to contradict the rest of the New Testament but to make Luke inconsistent; for only a few verses later he is describing the Coming of Christ in terms of lightning flashing from east to west, and he later defines this spectacular and universally visible event as the coming of the Kingdom of God (Luke 21:31).

Yes, the Kingdom of God is within us, but this is a "seed," a type of forshadowing of what is ultimately to come... forshadowing is a recurring theme of Scripture. I have salvation now... but the full reality of that will not happen until Jesus resurrects me.

James 2:5: We are now "heirs of the Kingdom of God which God has promised to them that love Him" (as often elsewhere in the epistles, heirs now, inheritors then).

I Cor. 15:50: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God...

Jesus himself said to pray for the Kingdom to COME!
Matt 6:10: "your Kingdom Come, your will be done on EARTH as it is in heaven."

Moonglow, I am not suggesting that we go out with our bibles preaching the message, while carrying and AR-17 on our back. But that may be what is required in order to survive in the TRIBULATION. I have absolutely no problem using it to protect myself and loved ones from being thrown in a paper shredder to be mutilated. Yes, I will fight. And I have plenty of Scripture to back me up. Sorry. ;)

God bless,

Alyssa

You and I seem to be the minority here, I agree that we should fight to spread the gospel in the end times, however if there is a pretrib rapture then all of this is null and void.

IamRyan
Oct 26th 2008, 11:17 PM
Well, number one, Christians will be raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins, and those who convert after that time will be the ones who go through the horrors of the trib.
Number two, what I have seen so far in the posts here is a lack of understanding of how things are really going to be.
The people left will be dealing with a man, the antiChrist, who has the power of satan behind him. To think you can hide is just a little bit fantasy-minded. This is real life, not some Stephen King movie. If the ac wants to find you, he will, hiding will do no good.
As far as killing anyone goes, if you kill with the sword, you will die by the sword. Killing them is not an option we have even though our fallen human natures tell us to fight to the death. The ones left after the rapture did not accept Jesus, that's why they are still on earth. That's why they will go through the tribulation. Yes, God COULD protect them, but we are told that many will perish. The tribulation is the wrath of God, not the wrath of satan, as many would have you believe. satan has to have permission for every little thing he does, from God. God is in charge, just like He is right now. The things that happen could be stopped by God, but He will not stop them because it will further His plans, which are to punish the ungodly.

Hiding would for sure work. Only God can be omnipotent or present. The AC wouldn't be able to just think of a name and be able to know where they are. And even if he could, which is impossible, and I would not just sit in the open waiting for death.

Moonglow, I think you misunderstood me. I said if the endtimes happen soon, so idk if they will be soon. But who wouldn't want to be free of the trials of school? Seriously, school is way different now, much much harder. Not having do worry about homework or pointless essays would be a big chip off the shoulder.

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Alyssa S


moonglow
There is no scriptures saying we should battle anyone...
To violently fight anyone because we are being attacked for our faith.....our beliefs goes against everything Jesus teaches. You won't fight one scriptures to back up this idea. Sorry.

God bless
I will have to respectfully, but radically disagree with you on some parts, Moonglow.


Quote:
I mean seriously..why fight for an earth that God is going to destroy?


Who said anything about fighting for the EARTH? This has nothing to do with the earth or the world. It is about the Kingdom!

Yes I know but my point was when everything is about to be destroyed...why fight as if there is a tomorrow ON this earth? This earth will be destroyed, then the New Earth and New Heaven will come.



moonglow
There is no scriptures saying we should battle anyone...


There is no scripture? Are you serious? The Old Testament is LOADED with Scriptures about battles. David battled Goliath. Israel fought the Amalekites, Joshua led Israel against the Canaannites, they battled the Philistines and so on. You may say that the Ten Commandments instruct one not to murder, but murder and battle are two different things. Under normal circumstances, capital punishment and killing during warfare were not considered murder. Capital punishment was a part of the covenant itself (Exodus 21:12-17)

There are close to 100 or more power verses from the Bible on the "battle verses" showing that God will come to our defense and either fight or help us fight against enemies that are trying to harm, attack or kill us. Many people don’t realize that God the Father has an incredible War Side to His personality and that He won’t hesitate to go into battle to protect His own.

There is even going to be a great war on the Last Day when Jesus returns in all of his glory. So to say that there are no Scriptures to support the Christian in battle is simply false.



I was referring to the scriptures regarding the end times...since this is what we are discussing. The verses in the NT...not the Old...to try to use OT scriptures about specific battles that already took place is abusing scriptures. I could take the OT verses of an eye for an eye to try to say its ok to get back at someone. That is abuse of the scriptures AND ignoring what Jesus taught later...

Matthew 5
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

I am very aware the bible says God is a warrior and very aware of all the battles He lead in the OT. But to take those and try to say since this happened there...we can do it here in the trib, is wrong. Jesus taught us to be passive...to love the enemy, to turn the other cheek and as others have posted gave warnings...those that live by the sword shall die by the sword. Are you really going to ignore all those verse?


moonglow
We aren't fighting for our 'freedom' like in that clip...we aren't to fight for the kingdom of God...there is no scriptures saying we should do this.


Again, I would have to disagree with you. We certainly ARE to fight for the Kingdom of God! If the purpose is to get the Gospel out, how can we do it if we are locked up in prison during the Trib or dead? Of course, Paul did it from prison, and it could possibly happen in the Trib... but chances are, we take the mark or die...why NOT fight for our freedom in order to continue sharing the gospel? That's what this country has done for us for many years in order to be FREE to worship our LORD today!

[COLOR="Blue"]Because again...there is no scriptures regarding any of the end time passages that say we should fight. Who are we going to spread the gospel too exactly? Everyone that isn't for Christ by this point will have the mark. There is nothing that says that mark can be removed...nothing that says we should witness to them so they can be saved. Nothing about fighting for our freedom...what would be the point when the world is on the verge of being utterly destroyed? Two of the greatest testimonies Jesus gave, was dying! The second was coming back to life! In which we will too!

You have no scriptures regarding the end times that says we should physical fight. This is all a spiritual battle anyway...


If it is the Lord's will for me to be martyred, so be it. But I am certainly not going to voluntarily place my head on a platter... they will have to TAKE it! Do not misunderstand me, I AM willing to be a martyr for Christ. But I will go down, I pray, fighting for the TRUTH! THAT is our duty!

That isn't what the bible says. It makes no sense to say you are willing to die for Him...but will fight and try to stop from dying for Him? :confused That seems like a contradiction to me.

Again our greatest testimony is dying for Him...not fighting while dying for Him..there is no verse that says this.

John 12:25
Those who love their life in this world will lose it. Those who care nothing for their life in this world will keep it for eternity.

1 John 3:16
We know what real love is because Jesus gave up his life for us. So we also ought to give up our lives for our brothers and sisters.

Revelation 12:11
And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony.And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die.




Quote:moonglow
Luke 17:20-22

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Is your point in giving this verse to say that their is no future "Kingdom of God" that will descend upon the earth?



Moonglow, Luke, only, records an episode in which Jesus says that the Kingdom is already "in your midst". To take this single passage to mean that the Kingdom has now fully arrived and has no future reality is not only to contradict the rest of the New Testament but to make Luke inconsistent; for only a few verses later he is describing the Coming of Christ in terms of lightning flashing from east to west, and he later defines this spectacular and universally visible event as the coming of the Kingdom of God (Luke 21:31).

I never said the kingdom had arrived in the sense you are talking about. It starts within us though first! I also wouldn't dismiss it simply because its only found in one book...then we can start chopping up the bible and taking out all the verse that were only mentioned once...leaving us a pretty slim bible.


Matthew 12:28
But if I am casting out demons by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you.

Luke 11:20
But if I am casting out demons by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you.


Yes, the Kingdom of God is within us, but this is a "seed," a type of forshadowing of what is ultimately to come... forshadowing is a recurring theme of Scripture. I have salvation now... but the full reality of that will not happen until Jesus resurrects me.

James 2:5: We are now "heirs of the Kingdom of God which God has promised to them that love Him" (as often elsewhere in the epistles, heirs now, inheritors then).

I Cor. 15:50: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God...

Jesus himself said to pray for the Kingdom to COME!
Matt 6:10: "your Kingdom Come, your will be done on EARTH as it is in heaven."

Moonglow, I am not suggesting that we go out with our bibles preaching the message, while carrying and AR-17 on our back. But that may be what is required in order to survive in the TRIBULATION. I have absolutely no problem using it to protect myself and loved ones from being thrown in a paper shredder to be mutilated. Yes, I will fight. And I have plenty of Scripture to back me up. Sorry.

God bless,

Alyssa

I haven't seen you post one scripture to back up using violence during the tribulation.

God bless

(the quotes are probably all messed up..sorry..I went back and put my new comments in blue so this can be readable...hopefully)

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 11:43 PM
Hiding would for sure work. Only God can be omnipotent or present. The AC wouldn't be able to just think of a name and be able to know where they are. And even if he could, which is impossible, and I would not just sit in the open waiting for death.

Moonglow, I think you misunderstood me. I said if the endtimes happen soon, so idk if they will be soon. But who wouldn't want to be free of the trials of school? Seriously, school is way different now, much much harder. Not having do worry about homework or pointless essays would be a big chip off the shoulder.

No..instead you would be worrying about keeping YOUR head on your shoulders...literally...and be wishing all you had to worry about was homework.

School is no different then when I was in it...I had to do hours of homework and essays...I don't know why you think its harder...in fact American kids have alot less school work then those from other countries...that is why our test scores are so bad now compared to other countries...:(

God bless

moonglow
Oct 26th 2008, 11:53 PM
I will add some info, as I find it, to this post. I first heard about this on the Power Hour radio show. They had some scientists on to talk about it and mentioned some searchable documents. I have not looked for any yet but I will now. To start with, I will mention a fact I alluded to on the Biden thread.

"Powerful generals and admirals from some of the most powerful nations on Earth are reportedly meeting somewhere in the local area this weekend after flying into the Adirondack Regional Airport in Lake Clear on Friday." http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/503035.html (http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/503035.html)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/jmdewey60/TruedauInstitute.jpghttp://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd56/jmdewey60/Aderondacairport.jpg

"Saranac Lake, N.Y., – Dr. David L. Woodland, president and director of the Trudeau Institute, announced today that President Bush has signed into law the Consolidated Security, Disaster Assistance, and Continuing Appropriations Act, 2009 (H.R. 2638), which includes $1.6 million in additional research funding to support a joint program between scientists at the Trudeau Institute and the U.S. Navy to develop a pandemic influenza vaccine." http://trudeauinstitute.org/dynamicPages/pressReleases.cfm?action=view&listingID=118&ID=100&navTable=tier2nav

The airport (upper left of center, in picture above) that the Nato leaders landed in, is about eight miles from the Trudeau Institute.(A) Could there be a crises expected in the near future, concerning an airborne virus epidemic?

"We have found letter carriers to be the federal government's quickest and surest way of getting pills to whole communities." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/01/ST2008100102936.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/01/ST2008100102936.html)

"Yet deep inside an 86-page supplement to United States export regulations is a single sentence that bars U.S. exports of vaccines for avian bird flu and dozens of other viruses to five countries designated "state sponsors of terrorism." The reason: Fear that they will be used for biological warfare." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081011/ap_on_re_as/as_bird_flu_biological_warfare

"This move provides the manufacturers, distributors, and others, of 'anti-terrorism' drugs and vaccines immunity from lawsuits, should injuries or deaths occur due to the drugs or vaccines." http://www.legitgov.org/HHS_declares_health_emergencies.html

"The sequences with the cluster of changes evolved from the Brisbane/59 sub-clade that was dominant in northern Europe in 2007/2008. The result from South Africa suggests this sub-clade continues to evolve and expand. Some countries still have other H1N1 sub-clade in circulation, but the countries reporting H274Y levels at or near 100% of H1N1 isolates suggests this change will soon be fixed in H1N1 worldwide." http://www.recombinomics.com/News/10190802/H274Y_Fixing_Additional.html

What this is pointing out is that the newly evolved forms of bird flu are resistant to Tamiflu and this is where you find it necessary to produce new vaccines that may be less than safe but would be used anyway in the event of a heath emergency.

"The first human trial of a DNA vaccine designed to prevent H5N1 avian influenza infection began on December 21, 2006," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070103201449.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070103201449.htm)

The way I understand this, is that they proposed that giving you just the DNA of a deadly flu would be safe. From what I heard, if you already have a type of flu in you when you get the shot, the bird flu DNA can link up with the other virus' DNA and become deadly. I have not yet found the documentation to support this. My understanding is that this year's flu vaccine has the deadly bird in it. I have not found that documentation yet, either. My Survival tip would be to ask to look at the information sheet, that all drugs are required to have available, and look for these designations, such as H5N1. If this is on the list, think twice. Tip #2: You can stay home and not let anyone in your house for two weeks, in the event of a flu epidemic and that sounds a lot safer than being injected with who knows what. This also goes back to having some food in your house.

"Federal officials are already stockpiling a prepandemic vaccine based on the H5N1 virus." http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/news/oct0608gao-br.html (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/news/oct0608gao-br.html)

"(NaturalNews) In a shocking article (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/25/cbsnews_investigates/main4296175.shtml) from a mainstream media source, CBS News, it is reported that some of the biggest vaccine promoters and defenders have very strong financial ties to the vaccine industry, to put it mildly."

"They have recreated the virus that caused the 1918 flu pandemic to better understand it, says Dr. Julie Gerberding, director of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention." http://lacrossetribune.com/articles/2008/09/05/news/00lead.txt

"...nearly 60% of health care workers fail to get a flu shot." http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-10-16-flu-shot_N.htm?csp=34

I'll have to read through all this tomorrow when I have more time..thanks!


Richard H

Apparently some will survive.
Although, I don't think it will be easy or pleasent.

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Great post!

If I thought we were going to go through the tribulation...I would not want to be one of those that survived it though.

God bless

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 04:09 AM
I was referring to the scriptures regarding the end times...since this is what we are discussing. The verses in the NT...not the Old...to try to use OT scriptures about specific battles that already took place is abusing scriptures.

Please don't say that I am abusing Scripture, Moonglow. That is quite harsh. I take the Word very seriously and am quite passionate about ALL of it... not just the New Testament...or just the Old Testament. I think the fact that our Old Testament is FILLED with many, many battles and war stories says something about our Lord and what he allows and wills.

While Jesus is the “prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Isaiah%209.6)), He was not, and is not, a pacifist. Revelation 19:15 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Revelation%2019.15), speaking of Jesus, declares, "Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." Ecclesiastes 3:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ecclesiastes%203.1), 3 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ecclesiastes%203.3), & 8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ecclesiastes%203.8) say, “There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heaven…a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” Daniel 9:26 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Daniel%209.26) says that “war will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.” Matthew 24:6-8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%2024.6-8) says, “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.”


I could take the OT verses of an eye for an eye to try to say its ok to get back at someone. That is abuse of the scriptures AND ignoring what Jesus taught later...


We should never ignore what Jesus said, and at the same time, we must rightly divide the Word of God. And I do not believe that we should get back at someone. There is a difference between revenge and defense!!

You quoted the verse about loving one's enemies. I firmly agree with this. This is the ideal. But is it the only option when faced with war??? Let's check out the verses prior to this one. The subject is divorce.

In the Old Testament, people divorced and remarried by the law that Moses gave. Jesus "CHANGED" things in the New Testament. He brought it back to the way it was in the beginning. Jesus said that "anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." We are also told that the adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I am divorced, and I take Jesus at his word. Therefore, I remain single as commanded in 1 Cor 7. If my husband dies, then I can remarry. So, yes, I take the words of my bible very seriously. How many people today are ignoring these clear words?

Let's go back another few verses. You mentioned "abusing" the Scriptures and ignoring what Jesus taught." Jesus is speaking of adultery, and he says; "IF YOUR RIGHT EYE CAUSES YOU TO SIN, GOUGE IT OUT AND THROW IT AWAY. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than your whole body to be THROWN INTO HELL." Have you ever sinned with your eyes? I know I have. Have you ever sinned with your hands? Jesus says to GOUGE them out and CUT THEM OFF. How many of us are "ignoring" what Jesus taught when we DO NOT gouge our eyes out or cut off our hands??

Do you think Jesus expected us to mutilate our bodies? I don't.


those that live by the sword shall die by the sword. Are you really going to ignore all those verse?


I do not IGNORE verses. ;)
Again, I believe we have to rightly divide the word. I am quite certain that Jesus was not condemning all police officers, military, marines, airforce, and people who fight in combat to DEFEND OUR FREEDOM to hell. I don't believe it. If I am in the Tribulation and some Taliban is shooting up my family and I have the option to protect or let them die or be tortured, I will fight to the best of my abilities. I am a girl afterall... not trained in combat... but I will fight when I have to. Please tell me that if you had a little child about to be slaughtered by one of these nut jobs, that you would not just hand them over to be chopped up. I think any parent in their right mind will defend their child to their death. Not to get graphic... but THIS is what the Taliban and Saddam Husseinites do to people.



You have no scriptures regarding the end times that says we should physical fight.


No, I don't have any Scriptures that I know of specifically telling me to physically fight in the End Times. But I wonder if Jesus would disapprove if I did? Don't you think if he disapproved of soldiers, he would have left some kind of clue or condemned their actions during his ministry?? Let's see what Jesus' response was to the soldiers of his time.

Jesus marveled when a Roman Centurion (officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The Centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%208.5-13)). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many Centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%208.5),8 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%208.8),13 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%208.13); 27:54 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%2027.54); Mark 15:39 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Mark%2015.39),44-45 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Mark%2015.44-45); Luke 7:2 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Luke%207.2),6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Luke%207.6); 23:47 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Luke%2023.47); Acts 10:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2010.1),22 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2010.22); 21:32 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2021.32); 22:25-26 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2022.25-26); 23:17 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2023.17),23 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2023.23); 24:23 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2024.23); 27:1 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2027.1),6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2027.6),11 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2027.11),31 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2027.31),43 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2027.43); 28:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Acts%2028.16)).

This is proof enough for me, that the same God that DID lead Israel into battle after battle, who WILL lead a great army on the LAST DAY is the same God of the Gospel that expects Christians to love their enemies as the IDEAL, but "taking care of businesss" when the situation calls for it.

"There is a time for everything...."



I haven't seen you post one scripture to back up using violence during the tribulation.

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

God bless,
Alyssa :hug:

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 04:53 AM
I can`t imagine this.

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/1827/jesusgun1qj8.th.jpg (http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jesusgun1qj8.jpg)




I can't imagine that either!!

"Thou shalt have no graven images" :) (Exodus 20:4)

If that's suppose to be Jesus, I'm not so sure that's what he will look like or ever did look like... and his weapon is going to be much bigger than that when he returns in all of his glory!!! :D

Rev 1:14: His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voicewas like the sound of rushing waters.In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouthcame a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Rev 19:11: I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.


17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.”


19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Ethnikos
Oct 27th 2008, 06:19 AM
I'll have to read through all this tomorrow when I have more time..thanks!
"The influenza virus strains to be incorporated into influenza vaccine each season are determined by the World Health Organisation in collaboration with national health authorities and vaccine manufacturers."

When you go to the WHO site, you get something about each vaccination containing two A strains and a B strain, without explaining what that means. Avian flu strains are called type A.
I get the feeling that ordinary people can not find out exactly what strains of flu virus are put into your shot. The CDC and WHO, who are the ones making the decisions, seem to not feel they need to tell anyone what they decide to put in. You just take what they give you and you are supposed to like it.

"...mice were infected with the potentially lethal H1N1 virus – the same virus that caused the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic." http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-10/sfgm-bfv101708.php

Apparently there is some sort of vaccine for a strain that would not even exist, if they had not resurrected it.
They spent something like a billion dollars developing and producing quantities of the vaccines and why should we think they did all this without the intention to use it?
What got me upset was three different radio shows were saying they had information that it was definitely going to be avian flu virus included in the upcoming season's version of a shot.

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 11:11 AM
"The influenza virus strains to be incorporated into influenza vaccine each season are determined by the World Health Organisation in collaboration with national health authorities and vaccine manufacturers."

When you go to the WHO site, you get something about each vaccination containing two A strains and a B strain, without explaining what that means. Avian flu strains are called type A.
I get the feeling that ordinary people can not find out exactly what strains of flu virus are put into your shot. The CDC and WHO, who are the ones making the decisions, seem to not feel they need to tell anyone what they decide to put in. You just take what they give you and you are supposed to like it.

"...mice were infected with the potentially lethal H1N1 virus – the same virus that caused the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic." http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-10/sfgm-bfv101708.php

Apparently there is some sort of vaccine for a strain that would not even exist, if they had not resurrected it.
They spent something like a billion dollars developing and producing quantities of the vaccines and why should we think they did all this without the intention to use it?
What got me upset was three different radio shows were saying they had information that it was definitely going to be avian flu virus included in the upcoming season's version of a shot.


I have never been a fan of the flu vaccine to be honest.

Kudo Shinichi
Oct 27th 2008, 02:03 PM
Then, that means those who accepts Christ in Tribulation have to be creative in how to survive and save more lost souls that time while store up more medication and use less technological iteams. Is it???:idea:

iyulchik
Oct 27th 2008, 02:25 PM
Well, number one, Christians will be raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins, and those who convert after that time will be the ones who go through the horrors of the trib.
Number two, what I have seen so far in the posts here is a lack of understanding of how things are really going to be.
The people left will be dealing with a man, the antiChrist, who has the power of satan behind him. To think you can hide is just a little bit fantasy-minded. This is real life, not some Stephen King movie. If the ac wants to find you, he will, hiding will do no good.
As far as killing anyone goes, if you kill with the sword, you will die by the sword. Killing them is not an option we have even though our fallen human natures tell us to fight to the death. The ones left after the rapture did not accept Jesus, that's why they are still on earth. That's why they will go through the tribulation. Yes, God COULD protect them, but we are told that many will perish. The tribulation is the wrath of God, not the wrath of satan, as many would have you believe. satan has to have permission for every little thing he does, from God. God is in charge, just like He is right now. The things that happen could be stopped by God, but He will not stop them because it will further His plans, which are to punish the ungodly.

No offense, but a lack of understanding? I haven't read everything here thoroughly, but when I hear someone promoting the rapture and then telling other people that they don't understand, I'm a little worried. I'm not trying to be rude. I personally don't believe in the rapture. Why do you believe in the rapture? Just curious.
Also, I don't believe that the tribulation is the wrath of God. God is angry, yes. Mankind has been trampling on their creator and disregarding His laws. But the tribulation will not be God's wrath. It will be Satan's wrath. He wants to get everyone he can under his power. Right now, Jesus is in the sanctuary in heaven, pleading the cases of all His followers. Removing their sins. In time, He will leave the sanctuary. Then there won't be time for people to change their minds. If your life shows you'd decided to follow Christ, that's wonderful! If your life shows you've decided not to, then that's not good. God has been showing people His love ever since we were created. But some people have rejected it. The more you reject it, the farther away from Him you go. And the farther from Him you are, the closer you are to the devil. That makes him happy. When people decide they don't want God's love and will do anything to block it out, He can't protect them. They won't let Him.
Oi. Ok. That was long. I hope that makes sense. :)

jesuslover1968
Oct 27th 2008, 02:42 PM
Hiding would for sure work. Only God can be omnipotent or present. The AC wouldn't be able to just think of a name and be able to know where they are. And even if he could, which is impossible, and I would not just sit in the open waiting for death.


I wasn't even implying that the ac is omnipotent at all, or present, for that matter. he will have demons at his beck and call, though. They are not omnipresent, or potent, either, but they do get around much quicker than we can. They can't read minds, but they can learn "us" by watching and listening. :)
The only hiding I can remember reading about didn't come from Christians...why do you think that might be?
Revelation 6:15-20~ 15~And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16~And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17~For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

jesuslover1968
Oct 27th 2008, 02:54 PM
No offense, but a lack of understanding? I haven't read everything here thoroughly, but when I hear someone promoting the rapture and then telling other people that they don't understand, I'm a little worried. I'm not trying to be rude. I personally don't believe in the rapture. Why do you believe in the rapture? Just curious.
Also, I don't believe that the tribulation is the wrath of God. God is angry, yes. Mankind has been trampling on their creator and disregarding His laws. But the tribulation will not be God's wrath. It will be Satan's wrath. He wants to get everyone he can under his power. Right now, Jesus is in the sanctuary in heaven, pleading the cases of all His followers. Removing their sins. In time, He will leave the sanctuary. Then there won't be time for people to change their minds. If your life shows you'd decided to follow Christ, that's wonderful! If your life shows you've decided not to, then that's not good. God has been showing people His love ever since we were created. But some people have rejected it. The more you reject it, the farther away from Him you go. And the farther from Him you are, the closer you are to the devil. That makes him happy. When people decide they don't want God's love and will do anything to block it out, He can't protect them. They won't let Him.
Oi. Ok. That was long. I hope that makes sense. :)

Ok, let me get this straight for a sec. :) you have given power to satan that he does not have...i.e~ satan's wrath...when he has to answer to God almighty?
And I believe in the rapture because God wrote of it in His Word. I believe everything in the Bible, don't you?


Revelation 14:10-14



10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Matthew 24:20-22



20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 2:20-24




20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.



And also, one thing stuck out in my mind that you said, Jesus is NOT saving us at this time. We are already saved as His work on the cross is complete. He is making intercession for us, and being our advocate in Heaven to the Father because satan is accusing us.
It really bothers me when people give satan the glory when it is God who is the ONLY ONE WHO DESERVES ALL THE GLORY. God will allow the tribulation because of the ungodly. Those who will not come to Him. To say that that is the wrath of satan is just plain wrong. God will be glorified, not satan. God Bless.

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 03:10 PM
Alyssa S...I had to copy and paste your post because there are so many extra things in it...url/colored fonts, etc, that show up in computer codes, it makes it unreadable when quoted directly.



Originally Posted by moonglow
I was referring to the scriptures regarding the end times...since this is what we are discussing. The verses in the NT...not the Old...to try to use OT scriptures about specific battles that already took place is abusing scriptures.

Please don't say that I am abusing Scripture, Moonglow. That is quite harsh. I take the Word very seriously and am quite passionate about ALL of it... not just the New Testament...or just the Old Testament. I think the fact that our Old Testament is FILLED with many, many battles and war stories says something about our Lord and what he allows and wills.

Ok then I will say, misusing scriptures out of what I see as lack of knowledge. I have done the same thing myself out of ignorance in taking some verse too literally. So I am not saying this as a demeaning put down since I have done it and probably still do it at times in certain parts of the bible. I will show you what I mean as I go through your post. I am sure you do take the bible very seriously. As I said I am very aware of the battles in the OT. I have read the bible five time..actually more, in my life. But to take those where God clearly told people to fight and just assume that means its ok to fight during the tribulation where He does NOT say its ok to fight is really stretching it.


Alyssa:While Jesus is the “prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6), He was not, and is not, a pacifist. Revelation 19:15, speaking of Jesus, declares, "Out of His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."

This is an example of taking a passage too literally. I mean think about it..is Jesus going to have a real sword in His mouth? How can anyone fight with a sword in their mouth?

The bible tells us the Sword is the Word of God...the times we read the word sword as a literal sword we see it in actions, such at Peter cutting off the guards ear...then Jesus tells him to put away the sword and those who live by it die by it. You won't find any study on the Revelation passage or commentary that think this is a real sword...or that Jesus physically fights anyone.
Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=019)
Verse 15
And out of his mouth proceeded a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

And out of his mouth proceeded a sharp sword ...
Again, all voices agree as one in seeing this as a symbol of the word of God (Hebrews 4:12,13 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+4:12,13); Ephesians 6:17f (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=eph+6:17)).

With it he should smite the nations ... rule them with a rod of iron ...
These are not references to the merciful and benign reign of Christ through his saints on earth in the present dispensation, but to the final wrath and judgment of God upon the ungodly.

He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God ...
This tells what Christ is depicted as doing in this scene. It is a picture of final judgment. "All three of the figures in this verse are representations of the word of Christ, by which he executes with indisputable authority the judgment of God." No "battle" of any kind takes place here. The so-called Battle of Armageddon, as usually conceived, is nothing but man's imagination. Christ needs no armies, whether of angels, or anyone else. His word which hurled the suns in space will execute his will when the time comes. To be sure, the language here suggests Armageddon, the great spiritual conflict going on throughout history, the results of which will be announced and executed on the last day. Note that there is no fighting or conflict of any kind in view here. At the moment of this vision, the conflict is already over; only the judgment remains to be executed; the issues which were long ago determined are here to be revealed and executed in the final judgment of all people.




Alyssa:Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, & 8 say, “There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under the heaven…a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” Daniel 9:26 says that “war will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.” Matthew 24:6-8 says, “You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.”

You are talking about two totally seperate things here...regular wars between nations, which yes the bible says our soldiers can fight and defend our country...and the beasts war on the saints during the tribulation. What would we be fighting for? There is no country to fight for...why even fight for freedom when the earth is about to be destroyed? There is no one left to witness too...all that is left is to is to wait on the Lord. The Matthew 24 does not say God started any of these wars, nor that the Christians should at that time be fighting. This was simply one of the signs to watch for. Daniel 9:26 is about how the Romans fought against the Jews, killed them all or sent them off to be killed or slaves. This is when the temple was destroyed for the second time...that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24. In this case the Jews never had a chance to fight back. The Christians did as Jesus said and fled the city. They didn't fight...they fled.


moonglow
I could take the OT verses of an eye for an eye to try to say its ok to get back at someone. That is abuse of the scriptures AND ignoring what Jesus taught later...



Alyssa:We should never ignore what Jesus said, and at the same time, we must rightly divide the Word of God. And I do not believe that we should get back at someone. There is a difference between revenge and defense!!


Yes look at what rightly dividing the word means. I don't think it means to go back to the OT and use that in certain situations and ignore the fuller meanings that Jesus taught:
Coffman Commentaries (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=2ti&chapter=002)
Verse 15
Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.

Practically all of the exegesis one encounters on this verse regards the Greek words here rendered "handling aright," and in the KJV, "rightly dividing" the word of truth. The words have the following basic meaning:

The compound verb (rightly dividing) means to "cut straight." Vincent defines the word, "to hold a straight course" (as plowing a straight furrow); and the Greeks used the word for "expound soundly."

The old expositors understood this as a reference to making the proper division between the law and the gospel, between the Old Testament and the New Testament; and, in view of the basic meaning of the words here rendered "handling aright," there is absolutely nothing wrong with such an exegesis. Certainly no preacher can "cut it straight," "tell it like it is," or employ "sound exegesis," without making these very distinctions clear in his preaching.


You quoted the verse about loving one's enemies. I firmly agree with this. This is the ideal. But is it the only option when faced with war???

That verse doesn't say to stop loving them just because they are killing you for your faith! And that its ok to kill them instead.

Matthew 10:28
“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 23:34
“Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city.

Not one of these say to physically fight back.


Alyssa: Let's check out the verses prior to this one. The subject is divorce.

In the Old Testament, people divorced and remarried by the law that Moses gave. Jesus "CHANGED" things in the New Testament. He brought it back to the way it was in the beginning. Jesus said that "anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." We are also told that the adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God. I am divorced, and I take Jesus at his word. Therefore, I remain single as commanded in 1 Cor 7. If my husband dies, then I can remarry. So, yes, I take the words of my bible very seriously. How many people today are ignoring these clear words?

I am also divorced...my husband committed adultery while we were married...according to scriptures I could remarry, but I don't even date. I am also disabled and raising my son by myself. It really doesn't matter to me how many take those verses seriously as long as I do and you do...correct? It doesn't give us an excuse to go ahead and do whatever (which I realize you aren't saying that)...but I don't understand what your point is with this discussion, as to whether people follow this on divorce or remarriage? I realize Jesus changed things...that is the point I was trying to make! Do we follow His words or go backwards in time and use the OT to justify violence during the tribulation? In order to do that we have to ignore His teachings and that just isn't right.

(my post is too long so I have to do it in two parts)

iyulchik
Oct 27th 2008, 03:11 PM
Ok, let me get this straight for a sec. :) you have given power to satan that he does not have...i.e~ satan's wrath...when he has to answer to God almighty?
And I believe in the rapture because God wrote of it in His Word. I believe everything in the Bible, don't you?


Revelation 14:10-14



10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Matthew 24:20-22



20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 2:20-24




20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.



And also, one thing stuck out in my mind that you said, Jesus is NOT saving us at this time. We are already saved as His work on the cross is complete. He is making intercession for us, and being our advocate in Heaven to the Father because satan is accusing us.
It really bothers me when people give satan the glory when it is God who is the ONLY ONE WHO DESERVES ALL THE GLORY. God will allow the tribulation because of the ungodly. Those who will not come to Him. To say that that is the wrath of satan is just plain wrong. God will be glorified, not satan. God Bless.



Ok. Still, not seeing the rapture part . . . I do believe what's written in the Bible and I don't understand where the rapture came from.

I believe Jesus is saving us now! Right now He is in the sanctuary, saving us. Pardoning us of our sins. Being our high priest. Wiping out our transgressions. Fitting us for Heaven. I completely agree with you on that point. Satan is trying to say, Hey look! They're terrible! And Jesus is saying God, look! I died for them. Forgive them. Remove their sins from Him.
I agree that God will allow the tribulation. He will allow Satan to carry out his will because the people have rejected God's will. But I don't believe we're in the time of the great tribulation yet. We're approaching the time, but we're not there. We're still being saved. Stilling being interceded for.
How is it giving Satan glory to say he will pour out his wrath? To give God the credit for everything that's happening in the world isn't right. God gives us the freedom of choice. If we decide we don't want His help, He will not force His help on us.
Oi! Sorry! I think I just realized that I said something in the wrong way . . . Oi. I don't know how to explain it. Yes, God will pour out His wrath on the world. Ah! I'm having a hard time focusing my thoughts right now. I'm trying to think too quickly, so everything's running together. Bah! But in the tribulation, God will remove Himself from between Satan and us and that's when it will be completely Satan. At the end of the tribulation, when Jesus comes back for His people, and they reign for the thousand years, then the wicked will be destroyed forever. Oi. Ok. I'll try to formulate a better explanation soon, but I need to run to work. Sorry!

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 03:12 PM
Alyssa:

Let's go back another few verses. You mentioned "abusing" the Scriptures and ignoring what Jesus taught." Jesus is speaking of adultery, and he says; "IF YOUR RIGHT EYE CAUSES YOU TO SIN, GOUGE IT OUT AND THROW IT AWAY. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than your whole body to be THROWN INTO HELL." Have you ever sinned with your eyes? I know I have. Have you ever sinned with your hands? Jesus says to GOUGE them out and CUT THEM OFF. How many of us are "ignoring" what Jesus taught when we DO NOT gouge our eyes out or cut off our hands??

Do you think Jesus expected us to mutilate our bodies? I don't.

No one is ignoring those verses because we all know He didn't mean this in the literal way. Its symbolic just like the verse on Him returning with a sword in His mouth..that is symbolic too.


moonglow
those that live by the sword shall die by the sword. Are you really going to ignore all those verse?



Alyssa:I do not IGNORE verses.
Again, I believe we have to rightly divide the word. I am quite certain that Jesus was not condemning all police officers, military, marines, airforce, and people who fight in combat to DEFEND OUR FREEDOM to hell.

That verse on living by the swords isn't talking about those that serve others to defend them in their roles. Again I feel like you are confusing different issues with the tribulation. The tribulation was like no other event ever in history or will be again. you are trying to take 'normal' things and apply them to a very abnormal situation.


Alyssa: I don't believe it. If I am in the Tribulation and some Taliban is shooting up my family and I have the option to protect or let them die or be tortured, I will fight to the best of my abilities. I am a girl afterall... not trained in combat... but I will fight when I have to. Please tell me that if you had a little child about to be slaughtered by one of these nut jobs, that you would not just hand them over to be chopped up. I think any parent in their right mind will defend their child to their death. Not to get graphic... but THIS is what the Taliban and Saddam Husseinites do to people.

I am well aware of what they do and how they do it...seen enough on the news and watched their video of beheading that one poor soul. Yes it horrible. The thing is they won't just come in and kill you..if its them..they will say renounce Christ..worship Allah or die.

This is no different then what the first century Christians went through with Nero in Rome. He declared himself a god and wanted to be worshiped. He went after the Christians for a number of different reasons. Whole families were forced in the arena with thousand of Roman's looking on. They were slaughtered by lions and tigers...wrapped in tar and burned slowly alive. Gutted, cut in half and on and on. And in my studies on this so far I haven't found one example of anyone trying to physically fight back. The children died with their parents. I don't know if this is true, but I have heard stories where the Christians would start singing praises to God before they were killed which made Nero so furious, he had their lips sewed shut because they wouldn't quit.

The thing you don't realize is God WILL be with us! He will give us that supernatural peace to endure...as He always has with His children.

I also heard Paul was singing on his way to having his head cut off..ordered by Nero.

Acts 7:54-56

54 The Jewish leaders were infuriated by Stephen’s accusation, and they shook their fists at him in rage. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed steadily into heaven and saw the glory of God, and he saw Jesus standing in the place of honor at God’s right hand. 56 And he told them, “Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing in the place of honor at God’s right hand!” 57 Then they put their hands over their ears and began shouting. They rushed at him 58 and dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. His accusers took off their coats and laid them at the feet of a young man named Saul

Being stoned to death would probably be pretty painful...but Stephen had His eyes on Jesus. And was filled with peace.

You worry about your children being killed but Jesus says this:

Luke 14:25-27

The Cost of Being a Disciple
25 A large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them, 26 “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. 27 And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple.

REGARDING THE COST OF DISCIPLESHIP (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=014)

The simple meaning of this astounding declaration is that one, in order to be a disciple of Christ, must love him more than any other being, not even excluding self.

Hateth ...
as applied here to father, mother, wife, etc., means "to love less," and is void of the sentiments usually associated with that word today. The Biblical use of this word becomes clear when it is recalled that Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah (Genesis 29:30), and that the next verse says that "The Lord saw that Leah was hated." The truly difficult part of the requirement in view here is in the words, "yea, and his own life also," Loving the Lord more than self is the plan of salvation.


moonglow
You have no scriptures regarding the end times that says we should physical fight.


Alyssa:No, I don't have any Scriptures that I know of specifically telling me to physically fight in the End Times. But I wonder if Jesus would disapprove if I did?

Yes I do think He would disapprove...

John 12:25
Those who love their life in this world will lose it. Those who care nothing for their life in this world will keep it for eternity.




Alyssa:Don't you think if he disapproved of soldiers, he would have left some kind of clue or condemned their actions during his ministry?? Let's see what Jesus' response was to the soldiers of his time.

Jesus marveled when a Roman Centurion (officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The Centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many Centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16).
Again you are confusing two seperate issues here. This isn't a war as in to protect a country. Nor a war to 'fight for our rights'..its the END of the world! Just seems odd to me to fight for rights when its all going to be over.


Alyssa:This is proof enough for me, that the same God that DID lead Israel into battle after battle, who WILL lead a great army on the LAST DAY is the same God of the Gospel that expects Christians to love their enemies as the IDEAL, but "taking care of businesss" when the situation calls for it.

"There is a time for everything...."


Again the verse on loving your enemy doesn't include a clause in it saying..unless its they are trying to kill you. Every example we see in the NT those speaking for Jesus WERE Killed! And they did NOT fight back! Jesus did not fight back, neither did Paul, or Peter or Stephen...none of them took up arms. And that is good enough for me to see we aren't to fight back...not when it comes to dying for our faith. Plus having not ONE scripture saying we should physically fight back. Again the difference with the battles in the OT and the tribulation...we clearly see God ordering those battles...instructing them on what to do many times in great details. He gave them battles plans. We see none of that in regards to the tribulation.


moonglow:
I haven't seen you post one scripture to back up using violence during the tribulation.



11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

God bless,
Alyssa
Reply With Quote

I already responded to what the sword coming out of His mouth means. The 'army' of Heaven by the way, comes FROM Heaven. Not living people on earth physically fighting anyone. Surprised you missed this one:

Revelation 19:20-21
20 And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast—miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came from the mouth of the one riding the white horse. And the vultures all gorged themselves on the dead bodies.

Coffman Commentaries (http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=019)
Verse 21
and the rest were killed by the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

And the rest were killed with the sword of him ...
Of course, that was no literal sword, but a symbol of the word of the Lord. The word alone is all-sufficient for achieving the total purpose of the Lord Jesus Christ. But should not these armies that followed the beast, the kings and the false prophet have also been cast into the lake of fire? "You are right; they were; Rev. 20:15 says so."

This particular recapitulation of the warfare between Satan and Christ (Revelation 19:11-21) "has given special attention to the overthrow of the powers of evil." "This covers the same ground as the vision of the seals," and other parallel visions of this prophecy. The whole pattern will again be repeated in Rev. 20 with another recapitulation of the warfare going on in this dispensation, with the focus upon the overthrow of Satan himself, and ending in exactly the same place all of the recapitulations have ended; namely, at the final judgment of the last day. The chronology of all these parallel visions lies principally between the two Advents of Jesus Christ.

God bless

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 03:23 PM
Zephaniah 1: 14-18
14 The great day of the Lord is near;
It is near and hastens quickly.
The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out.
15 That day is a day of wrath,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of devastation and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of trumpet and alarm
Against the fortified cities
And against the high towers.
17 “I will bring distress upon men,
And they shall walk like blind men,
Because they have sinned against the Lord;
Their blood shall be poured out like dust,
And their flesh like refuse.”
18 Neither their silver nor their gold
Shall be able to deliver them
In the day of the Lord's wrath;
But the whole land shall be devoured
By the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make speedy riddance
Of all those who dwell in the land.

So from that we learn that the “Great Day of the Lord” is:

A day of wrath
A day of trouble and distress (could be translated tribulation perhaps)
A day of devastation and desolation
A day of darkness and gloominess
A day of clouds and thick darkness
A day of trumpet and alarm against the fortified cities and against the high towers

And there can be no doubt that “I” => The Lord brings it.

Now some things to consider about the Day of the Lord (OT => Rev)

First Trumpet: Vegetation Struck
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Is this not what is prophesied in Joel?

Joel 1:15-20
15 Alas for the day!
For the day of the Lord is at hand;
It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.
16 Is not the food cut off before our eyes,
Joy and gladness from the house of our God?
17 The seed shrivels under the clods,
Storehouses are in shambles;
Barns are broken down,
For the grain has withered.
18 How the animals groan!
The herds of cattle are restless,
Because they have no pasture;
Even the flocks of sheep suffer punishment.
19 O Lord, to You I cry out;
For fire has devoured the open pastures,
And a flame has burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field also cry out to You,
For the water brooks are dried up,
And fire has devoured the open pastures.
Rev 8:8

Second Trumpet: The Seas Struck
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood
3Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

Is this not what was Prophesied in Zephaniah?

Zeph 1:3
3“I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the birds of the heavens,
The fish of the sea,
And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked.
I will cut off man from the face of the land,”
Says the Lord.

Zeph 1:10
10“And there shall be on that day,” says the Lord,
“The sound of a mournful cry from the Fish Gate,
A wailing from the Second Quarter,
And a loud crashing from the hills.

I believe many of the signs seen in Revelation are also seen in the OT. I also believe that we are in a present time of Tribulation, but that day of Tribulation to come shall be like no other.

Rev 19:17

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Isaiah 40:31
31 But those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.

John 6:53
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


It certainly brings a picture. God is faithful, why do we want to believe that God will not spare his bride from the greatest tribulation that is coming? Do we not know that the Lord, He is faithful?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 27th 2008, 03:31 PM
Ok, let me get this straight for a sec. :) you have given power to satan that he does not have...i.e~ satan's wrath...when he has to answer to God almighty? Properly delineating the source of the events in the Tribulation does not constitute “giving power to Satan”. Calm down.
And I believe in the rapture because God wrote of it in His Word. I believe everything in the Bible, don't you?Your attempt to appear to be on the high road is not intimidating, only annoying. One’s belief in the Rapture is not a question of one’s belief in the Bible, but rather one’s interpretation of the Bible.

And also, one thing stuck out in my mind that you said, Jesus is NOT saving us at this time. We are already saved as His work on the cross is complete. He is making intercession for us, and being our advocate in Heaven to the Father because satan is accusing us. I didn’t see anywhere in iyulchik’s post where a statement was made that Jesus is not saving us. Can you clarify exactly what it is you’re disputing?
It really bothers me when people give satan the glory when it is God who is the ONLY ONE WHO DESERVES ALL THE GLORY. God will allow the tribulation because of the ungodly. Those who will not come to Him. To say that that is the wrath of satan is just plain wrong. God will be glorified, not satan. God Bless.I hardly think that pinning the responsibility for the Tribulation on Satan is “giving him glory”. If somebody blamed you for causing the Tribulation, would you consider that something that “glorifies” you?

To clarify the Post-Trib position, however, I should make sure you understand that a true Post-Trib stance does not have the Church enduring God’s wrath for even one instant. A number of people claim the post-trib stance and have us going through the full wrath of God, but that is an outgrowth of not properly understanding the sequence of events in Joel. Daniel, Matthew, Luke, Isaiah, Zechariah, and Revelation, among others.

The correct sequence of events is Tribulation (including the seals and trumpets), 2nd Coming/Rapture (at sixth seal, seventh trumpet and Revelation 14), Day of the Lord wrath (including the bowls), Millennium.

Now, before you dismiss this out of hand simply because it’s different from what you’ve seen before, please answer this question:

How do you explain Joel 2:31?

Joel 2:31 – “ The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”

How do you explain the word “before”? From my point of view, it’s no problem whatsoever. I suspect you’ll have a struggle with actually answering that.

jesuslover1968
Oct 27th 2008, 04:02 PM
Properly delineating the source of the events in the Tribulation does not constitute “giving power to Satan”. Calm down.Your attempt to appear to be on the high road is not intimidating, only annoying. One’s belief in the Rapture is not a question of one’s belief in the Bible, but rather one’s interpretation of the Bible.I didn’t see anywhere in iyulchik’s post where a statement was made that Jesus is not saving us. Can you clarify exactly what it is you’re disputing?I hardly think that pinning the responsibility for the Tribulation on Satan is “giving him glory”. If somebody blamed you for causing the Tribulation, would you consider that something that “glorifies” you?

To clarify the Post-Trib position, however, I should make sure you understand that a true Post-Trib stance does not have the Church enduring God’s wrath for even one instant. A number of people claim the post-trib stance and have us going through the full wrath of God, but that is an outgrowth of not properly understanding the sequence of events in Joel. Daniel, Matthew, Luke, Isaiah, Zechariah, and Revelation, among others.

The correct sequence of events is Tribulation (including the seals and trumpets), 2nd Coming/Rapture (at sixth seal, seventh trumpet and Revelation 14), Day of the Lord wrath (including the bowls), Millennium.

Now, before you dismiss this out of hand simply because it’s different from what you’ve seen before, please answer this question:

How do you explain Joel 2:31?

Joel 2:31 – “ The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”

How do you explain the word “before”? From my point of view, it’s no problem whatsoever. I suspect you’ll have a struggle with actually answering that.


Well, number one, You don't need to be rude. If you didn't like my post, you could skip over it. I haven't liked many of yours, but I haven't been rude to you. Second, I don't need to calm down, I am calm...:)
As for the 'ones belief in the rapture?' attitude, that is just your interpretation of what I was saying, not what I was actually saying, so if you are annoyed, you can lay the blame at your own feet. :) My point to the person I posted to was that I DO believe in the rapture, that I read it in the Bible, and that I believe it BECAUSE it's in there. I don't think asking someone if they believe everything in the Bible is a bad question. Many people don't, but in your haste to jump on me, you didn't think about that...obviously. :)
As for your not understanding my Jesus isn't saving us right now thing, the poster didn't seem to understand that Jesus' work on the cross already saved us. But again, in your haste for fresh blood, you attacked. :)
As for pinning the trib on satan, number one, that is not entirely true, and number two, The poster did not just pin it on satan. The poster was intimating that satan has a right to have a "wrath." The Bible never calls it satan's wrath. The only mention of it says that he comes down "having"
great wrath...( Rev. 12:12 ) which is not the same thing. I just wanted the poster to understand that any power satan has, he gets from God. he has to have permission, he can't just do as he wills, that is for God.
As for your statement that what you believe is "not what I have seen before..." uhm, you are being a little prideful and presumptuous there, don't you think. You need not believe that you are the only authority I need listen to, or that you have the only truth I or anyone else has ever seen. In my opinion, which is what you have given me a lot of, you are just in error. That doesn't make me better, nor do I believe it does, but you seem to have a healthy dose of pride.

And why would I have a struggle answering your question? It's one that has been asked by lots of people. Believing you are the first one to ask me that is also quite prideful. It says before...and that's what it means. :)

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 04:33 PM
[quote=moonglow;1842404]

Ok then I will say, misusing scriptures out of what I see as lack of knowledge. I have done the same thing myself out of ignorance in taking some verse too literally. So I am not saying this as a demeaning put down since I have done it and probably still do it at times in certain parts of the bible.


Thank you. I will not claim that I have fully arrived and have it all figured out. But I have my beliefs. God is always (hopefully) growing us in wisdom and discernment. Maybe you're right... Maybe I am right. Maybe we both are a little right and a little wrong. We shall soon find out. :)


This is an example of taking a passage too literally. I mean think about it..is Jesus going to have a real sword in His mouth? How can anyone fight with a sword in their mouth?

I don't believe Jesus is going to have a literal sword in his mouth... never said that's what I believed. But Jesus is going to destroy the wicked. That is plain and clear.


The bible tells us the Sword is the Word of God...the times we read the word sword as a literal sword we see it in actions, such at Peter cutting off the guards ear...then Jesus tells him to put away the sword and those who live by it die by it.
I understand the Sword is the Word of God. But Jesus is still coming back to destroy the wicked on the earth like he destroyed Soddom and Gommorah. :)



You won't find any study on the Revelation passage or commentary that think this is a real sword...or that Jesus physically fights anyone.


I don't mean to be rude, but I am not all that interested in what Commentaries or other men's opinions are. I care what the bible says.

My bible tells me that Jesus is coming back to destroy the wicked. "The rest of them were KILLED with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds GORGED themselves on their flesh." (Rev 19:21)

If Jesus doesn't physically fight or kill anyone, then how can the birds gorge on FLESH?

Jesus destroys (KILLS) the wicked by his Sword, he is IS GOING TO KILL, even though some like to only think of him as a soft, meek, gentle fellow. And the birds will gorge themselves on the flesh of those that Jesus destroys.

2 Thess 2:8-12: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Psalm 91:7-8 "A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand: But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, and see the reward of the wicked."

Jer 6:29 Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

Scripture is clear that Jesus WILL DESTROY THE WICKED.


You are talking about two totally seperate things here...regular wars between nations, which yes the bible says our soldiers can fight and defend our country...and the beasts war on the saints during the tribulation. What would we be fighting for?

Woa, Woa, Woa!!!
But I thought you said that Jesus ONLY wants us to love our enemies and "turn the other cheek??" I think YOU are now contradicting yourself. ;) How can you support our soldiers and police officers when you so radically defend this verse about how we ALL should turn the other cheek?



There is no country to fight for...why even fight for freedom when the earth is about to be destroyed? There is no one left to witness too...all that is left is to is to wait on the Lord.

How do you know there will be no one to witness to?

When the Tribulation begins, it's not like the AC is going to make one clean sweep in a day, like our Lord will on the Last Day. This will be over a period of time. There will be unbelievers who are hiding out that still need to hear the Gospel. :confused

I'll finish the rest later...

God bless,
Alyssa

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 04:55 PM
One comment. About the sword being in Jesus Mouth. As you have said the Sword of the Lord is the Word. What Word? The Word of God of Course, and we know from John that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." We also know that he spake all things into existence. While on earth, Jesus said "Peace be still" and the waves and winds ceased. I believe that Jesus can bring judgment simply with the words of his mouth. What he says happens. Not sure if that helps explain your confusion there or not.

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 05:05 PM
[quote=moonglow;1842404]
That verse doesn't say to stop loving them just because they are killing you for your faith! And that its ok to kill them instead.


Moonglow, I am sorry, but you are not making sense to me.

You just admitted that you support soldiers who fight to defend our freedom and agreed with me that it is biblical. But yet, you can say that it is NOT ok to defend ourselves against the enemies who want to mutilate, rape, torture, and kill us. Why is it ok, in your eyes, for a Christian soldier to do the killing and protecting, but it's not ok for a Christian civilian to do the killing or protecting OUT OF SELF DEFENSE in the Tribulation??

You justify it just because Jesus didn't give you a direct command regarding this specific topic. He said to turn the other cheek, and this is what you completely stand on. I guess you believe that only a soldier is exempt from this verse. If it is good for a soldier... it is good for me. It's called self defense.

It's not all adding up. Sorry.


I am also divorced...my husband committed adultery while we were married...according to scriptures I could remarry,

Well, there was adultery in my situation as well, but Jesus did not give us freedom to remarry. We are bound til death. (1 Cor 7:39) Matt 5:32 shows the the divorced woman, whether innocent or guilty, is NOT free to remarry. "Anyone who marries the DIVORCED woman commits adultery." It's very clear. Covenants are binding till death. Romans 7:2 says that if a woman marries while her husband is still alive, she IS called an ADULTERESS. Jesus would not contradict himself on this issue. Mark and Luke clearly reveal that remarriage is adultery. Paul is firm that the divorced remain single or reconcile. This is another subject for another thread. I spent over 2 years in deep study on this. I am firmly convinced on this topic. I wrote an 8 pg treatise on it that no pastor has yet been able to biblically dispute. Anyhoo... :)


I realize Jesus changed things...that is the point I was trying to make!

And I was agreeing with you, that Jesus did change things... but some things he did not change...or merely brought them back to the way they were supposed to be!

God bless,
Alyssa

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 05:10 PM
One comment. About the sword being in Jesus Mouth. As you have said the Sword of the Lord is the Word. What Word? The Word of God of Course, and we know from John that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." We also know that he spake all things into existence. While on earth, Jesus said "Peace be still" and the waves and winds ceased. I believe that Jesus can bring judgment simply with the words of his mouth. What he says happens. Not sure if that helps explain your confusion there or not.

Excellent point! Good stuff.
I'm not so sure I am confused... I just don't fully know how it all will go down exactly. But if I live till then, I will know soon enough!

I know there is going to be a lot of destruction and death... and Jesus will be the one bringing the "heat!!"

God bless,
Alyssa

ph33r
Oct 27th 2008, 05:51 PM
[quote]


Thank you. I will not claim that I have fully arrived and have it all figured out. But I have my beliefs. God is always (hopefully) growing us in wisdom and discernment. Maybe you're right... Maybe I am right. Maybe we both are a little right and a little wrong. We shall soon find out. :)



I don't believe Jesus is going to have a literal sword in his mouth... never said that's what I believed. But Jesus is going to destroy the wicked. That is plain and clear.


I understand the Sword is the Word of God. But Jesus is still coming back to destroy the wicked on the earth like he destroyed Soddom and Gommorah. :)



I don't mean to be rude, but I am not all that interested in what Commentaries or other men's opinions are. I care what the bible says.

My bible tells me that Jesus is coming back to destroy the wicked. "The rest of them were KILLED with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds GORGED themselves on their flesh." (Rev 19:21)

If Jesus doesn't physically fight or kill anyone, then how can the birds gorge on FLESH?

Jesus destroys (KILLS) the wicked by his Sword, he is IS GOING TO KILL, even though some like to only think of him as a soft, meek, gentle fellow. And the birds will gorge themselves on the flesh of those that Jesus destroys.

2 Thess 2:8-12: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Psalm 91:7-8 "A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand: But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, and see the reward of the wicked."

Jer 6:29 Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

Scripture is clear that Jesus WILL DESTROY THE WICKED.



Woa, Woa, Woa!!!
But I thought you said that Jesus ONLY wants us to love our enemies and "turn the other cheek??" I think YOU are now contradicting yourself. ;) How can you support our soldiers and police officers when you so radically defend this verse about how we ALL should turn the other cheek?




How do you know there will be no one to witness to?

When the Tribulation begins, it's not like the AC is going to make one clean sweep in a day, like our Lord will on the Last Day. This will be over a period of time. There will be unbelievers who are hiding out that still need to hear the Gospel. :confused

I'll finish the rest later...

God bless,
Alyssa
Don't forget it says that there will be blood up to a horses briddle for miles upon miles. Revelations 14:20.

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 05:54 PM
I think a time of focus is maybe important here. It seems that some are claiming we should not "defend ourselves" or some such. My main point is that if we are here for the Tribulation period in the last days, then i see little promise of escape before the rapture. How can we escape what God has ordained before hand? Jonah wasn't able to, nor did Saul, so why should we think we do.

That is a separate issue I believe from using force to defend yourself or you family from violence. I see no reason why the two can't both play out in the end, but we must remember that these things will happen to fullfill what was in scriptures.

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 05:55 PM
Thank you. I will not claim that I have fully arrived and have it all figured out. But I have my beliefs. God is always (hopefully) growing us in wisdom and discernment. Maybe you're right... Maybe I am right. Maybe we both are a little right and a little wrong. We shall soon find out. :)


Sure. :)


I don't believe Jesus is going to have a literal sword in his mouth... never said that's what I believed. But Jesus is going to destroy the wicked. That is plain and clear.

No but you seemed to think the Sword was literal..that He was going to be literally stabbing people or whatever.

if the wicked are destroyed then how can they be judged?

Revelation 20

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Everyone has to give an account for their actions here on earth...judgment day as they call it. If they are destroyed by the Word of God..then maybe the meaning of destroyed means halted, stopped...overcome. Otherwise we have a problem here...as they aren't judged nor thrown into the lake of fire. See all of this is symbolic. Taking it too literally then it makes no sense. There are many verses about the wicked being destroyed but if they are literally destroyed then how are they tormented forever?

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”



[QUOTE]I understand the Sword is the Word of God. But Jesus is still coming back to destroy the wicked on the earth like he destroyed Soddom and Gommorah. :)

I don't mean to be rude, but I am not all that interested in what Commentaries or other men's opinions are. I care what the bible says.

My bible tells me that Jesus is coming back to destroy the wicked. "The rest of them were KILLED with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds GORGED themselves on their flesh." (Rev 19:21)

If the sword coming out of His mouth isn't a literal sword, but symbolic, why look for a literal meaning in the birds? The word 'birds' in the bible have many different meanings...which I guess I can't share with you since you don't want to read any bible commentaries that refer to those scriptures. Its faster to check them because they give those verses AND historical evidence too...they are people who have studied the bible in depth for years and I think we have something to learn from them. I don't have time to look up all the verses on 'birds' to show you different meanings behind them but some are clearly demonic. Not literal birds. In this case I don't think there are any birds at all...I think its figurative..to add impact to the verse. Like me saying its raining cats and dogs...I don't mean real animals are falling out of the sky but just expressing its raining really hard.


If Jesus doesn't physically fight or kill anyone, then how can the birds gorge on FLESH?

Jesus destroys (KILLS) the wicked by his Sword, he is IS GOING TO KILL, even though some like to only think of him as a soft, meek, gentle fellow. And the birds will gorge themselves on the flesh of those that Jesus destroys.

You just agreed the Sword wasn't literal...but now say it is? :confused I realize this is hard to wrap our minds around...realizing one part of a verse is symbolic but then trying to force the rest to be literal doesn't work. Not saying there isn't any literal verses at all in Revelation...of course there is but the key is if one part is obviously symbolic...such as the sword coming out of His mouth...then the rest of that passage or verse should be viewed as symbolic also. Like the verse of Jesus holding seven stars in His hands. No one takes that as literal. And in this instance, it goes on to explain what the star represent..but they aren't literal stars. Jesus would have to be a massive giant in order to hold real stars in His hands...or supernaturally shrink them down ...but the bible tells us what they mean and they aren't real stars.


2 Thess 2:8-12: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Psalm 91:7-8 "A thousand may fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand: But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, and see the reward of the wicked."

Jer 6:29 Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.

:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.

Scripture is clear that Jesus WILL DESTROY THE WICKED.

Ok then how do they get judged and then cast into the lake of fire if they are all destroyed? Also another question..not sure what your beliefs are in regards to the thousand years...reigning with Christ...if the wicked are destroyed...who are you reigning over?




Woa, Woa, Woa!!!
But I thought you said that Jesus ONLY wants us to love our enemies and "turn the other cheek??" I think YOU are now contradicting yourself. ;) How can you support our soldiers and police officers when you so radically defend this verse about how we ALL should turn the other cheek?

Again, this is in reference to our faith! Being struck, insulted, persecuted directly because of our faith! That is why I keep saying you are mixing national wars in with those that attack us solely because of our faith.

Look at the examples again of the battles in the OT...why were the Jews being attacked? Does it say they were being attacked because of their faith? Or that anyone tried to convert them? No. The pagans attacked anyone they could...they didn't need a reason as that is how they lived. At this point in time they had a future..a reason to keep living....by the time the trib hits, no one has a future in the sense of this earth continuing on...or in the sense of us physically continuing on as we are. Everything will be made anew! We will have our new bodies...every lasting life with God...why would you want to fight to continue living on in a dying imperfect body, in a sin filled corrupted world? To me that would be like fighting to stay living in the worse battle zone imaginable instead of going on to the Garden of Eden...

Romans 8:23
And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.


Now with Daniel we clearly see him and his friends being persecuted because of their faith! In fact his three friends were thrown into the fiery furnace...and Daniel into the Lion's Den. None of them physically fought back and God protected them.



How do you know there will be no one to witness to?

Because the bible tells us that. When the beast rises the people of this 'world...(the unbelievers) will be amazed and worship him and follow him and the bible says their names are NOT written in the book of life.

Revelation 13

3 I saw that one of the heads of the beast seemed wounded beyond recovery—but the fatal wound was healed! The whole world marveled at this miracle and gave allegiance to the beast. 4 They worshiped the dragon for giving the beast such power, and they also worshiped the beast. “Who is as great as the beast?” they exclaimed. “Who is able to fight against him?”

5 Then the beast was allowed to speak great blasphemies against God. And he was given authority to do whatever he wanted for forty-two months. 6 And he spoke terrible words of blasphemy against God, slandering his name and his dwelling—that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. 8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made—the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.

2 Thessalonians 2

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (read that one when you have time at the beginning of that page)

God Himself has blinded them to the truth and allows them to believe the lie in the beast...or any false teaching for that matter. So they cannot be saved. He does this because these are people who have refused the truth time and time again and He finally gives them what they want! To believe a lie. Some think those that believe in evolution are believing a lie. Some think those of us who believe in the creation story are believing a lie. The fact is though almost everyone believes in some lie at some time in their life...for many different reasons. But at any rate there is no scriptures saying these people of the world can be saved. There is nothing that says we should be witnessing to anyone at this point in time. Its too late.


When the Tribulation begins, it's not like the AC is going to make one clean sweep in a day, like our Lord will on the Last Day. This will be over a period of time. There will be unbelievers who are hiding out that still need to hear the Gospel. :confused

I'll finish the rest later...

God bless,
Alyssa



Ok I am just showing you what the bible says.

I also don't believe the mark of the beast is literal. Our seal from God is spiritual...the right hand in the bible means action, the forehead means the mind..thought. Where our hearts and minds are show who we truly follow..the devil or God. There will be no unbelievers hiding out because they belong to this world and their names aren't in the book of life...they will follow the beast.

God bless

Veretax
Oct 27th 2008, 06:00 PM
[quote]


Ok I am just showing you what the bible says.

I also don't believe the mark of the beast is literal. Our seal from God is spiritual...the right hand in the bible means action, the forehead means the mind..thought. Where our hearts and minds are show who we truly follow..the devil or God. There will be no unbelievers hiding out because they belong to this world and their names aren't in the book of life...they will follow the beast.

God bless

whether that is true or not, it seems clear that whatever the mark of the beast is, will be obvious enough that those who are hear will know what it is. I do not believe there will be any doubt about it.

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 06:09 PM
I think a time of focus is maybe important here. It seems that some are claiming we should not "defend ourselves" or some such. My main point is that if we are here for the Tribulation period in the last days, then i see little promise of escape before the rapture. How can we escape what God has ordained before hand? Jonah wasn't able to, nor did Saul, so why should we think we do.

That is a separate issue I believe from using force to defend yourself or you family from violence. I see no reason why the two can't both play out in the end, but we must remember that these things will happen to fullfill what was in scriptures.

I realize to some this discussion may seem unimportant but its not...its a learning process and helps to clarify what really will happen...iron sharpens iron as they say. Its never unimportant to study scriptures on any topic. I agree with you the bible say the beast is given authority OVER the saints...there is no fighting back.

I know people totally hate to hear that...but that is what this view shows.

As far as I am concerned I don't worry about it...from my viewpoint the tribulation happened in the first century. Satan coming out of the pit though is another story! But I expect it to be very similar to this...just not lasting as long...

God bless

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 06:13 PM
ph33r[/B];1842693]
Don't forget it says that there will be blood up to a horses briddle for miles upon miles. Revelations 14:20.

Do you honestly think this is possible? The whole world would have to be flooded with blood for it to rise that much..otherwise it runs off and sinks into the ground.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=014
The imagery here is not to be taken literally at all. We are merely expected to recoil in horror at the very thought of such a thing. It would be interesting if some of the fundamentalist modernists would step forward and give us an "honest" explanation of this like they did in the case of the "virgins" earlier in the chapter!

The number 1,600 is of interest, despite the opinions of some that, "There is no obvious prototype of this in the Old Testament." F90 Beasley-Murray seems to have come up with a plausible reason for the use of this number:

The figure is the square of forty, the traditional number of punishment. Israel was punished by forty years of wanderings in the wilderness (Numbers 24:23); and certain offenders were given forty lashes (Deuteronomy 25:3) F91

Thus this chapter, along with Rev. 12 and Rev. 13, has now completed another comprehensive view of the entire history of God's redemptive program, from the first to the final judgment at the Second Advent of Christ.

All of the blood in these last verses must be understood in connection with that angel who came out from the altar, having power over fire. One may say, How strange! No fire appears here; but the fire is here under another figure, that of blood. The great outpouring of blood is another symbol used to describe the final overthrow of the wicked. Of course, the fire and brimstone are also figures; and one may only wonder how terrible must be that reality which requires such symbolism to represent it.

God bless

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Alyssa S http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1842569#post1842569)
Don't forget it says that there will be blood up to a horses briddle for miles upon miles. Revelations 14:20.




quote=moonglow;1842721]

Do you honestly think this is possible? The whole world would have to be flooded with blood for it to rise that much..otherwise it runs off and sinks into the ground.


ERRR....Moonglow, This was not my post or quote... you got the wrong person! ;) But I do believe, when considering there are billions of people living on this earth, that it is quite possible the blood shed will be great. Do I believe it is a literal "right up to every horses bridle for miles and miles??" Of course not! It is symbolic. Please don't assume that those of us on here that don't believe like you do are ignorant to the fact that Revelation is a very symbolic book and difficult to understand. We clearly understand that there is much symbolism.

ph33r
Oct 27th 2008, 06:37 PM
[quote=ph33r;1842693]

Do you honestly think this is possible? The whole world would have to be flooded with blood for it to rise that much..otherwise it runs off and sinks into the ground.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=014
The imagery here is not to be taken literally at all. We are merely expected to recoil in horror at the very thought of such a thing. It would be interesting if some of the fundamentalist modernists would step forward and give us an "honest" explanation of this like they did in the case of the "virgins" earlier in the chapter!

The number 1,600 is of interest, despite the opinions of some that, "There is no obvious prototype of this in the Old Testament." F90 Beasley-Murray seems to have come up with a plausible reason for the use of this number:

The figure is the square of forty, the traditional number of punishment. Israel was punished by forty years of wanderings in the wilderness (Numbers 24:23); and certain offenders were given forty lashes (Deuteronomy 25:3) F91

Thus this chapter, along with Rev. 12 and Rev. 13, has now completed another comprehensive view of the entire history of God's redemptive program, from the first to the final judgment at the Second Advent of Christ.

All of the blood in these last verses must be understood in connection with that angel who came out from the altar, having power over fire. One may say, How strange! No fire appears here; but the fire is here under another figure, that of blood. The great outpouring of blood is another symbol used to describe the final overthrow of the wicked. Of course, the fire and brimstone are also figures; and one may only wonder how terrible must be that reality which requires such symbolism to represent it.

God bless

Not to be rude but, do you believe humans are symolically going to be killed and persecuted? I am curious as to what you take as symolism and what you take as physical truth. Not to be rude but you do realize there is a large belief that the last battle will be in meggido which has valleys amongst a bunch of mountains. With a 200 million person army each person having 5.6 liters of blood, your looking about 1.1 BILLION liters of blood.

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 06:47 PM
Not to be rude but, do you believe humans are symolically going to be killed and persecuted?


:lol: That would be nice if that were the truth, eh??



I am curious as to what you take as symolism and what you take as physical truth.


I was thinking the same thing. And it isn't about ganging up on ya, Moonglow. I know your heart for the Lord is strong! I just don't agree with some of your theology. But I respect your heart.

God bless,
Alyssa

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 06:55 PM
I also don't believe the mark of the beast is literal.

Okay... :)


No but you seemed to think the Sword was literal..that He was going to be literally stabbing people or whatever.

if the wicked are destroyed then how can they be judged?

Nope... Again, I am not saying that Jesus will be literally stabbing people.

Were the wicked destroyed in the flood?
Were the wicked destroyed in Soddom and Gommorah?
Were the wicked destroyed by Israel and Joshua?

YUP!
And THEY will STILL face judgment!! I did not say their SOUL was destroyed. I simply said they were killed-destroyed!

C'mon, now. :)

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by moonglow http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1841797#post1841797) If the sword coming out of His mouth isn't a literal sword, but symbolic, why look for a literal meaning in the birds? The word 'birds' in the bible have many different meanings...which I guess I can't share with you since you don't want to read any bible commentaries that refer to those scriptures. Its faster to check them because they give those verses AND historical evidence too...they are people who have studied the bible in depth for years and I think we have something to learn from them.

Moonglow, It's not the I never read commentaries, because I sometimes do. I just don't like to focus on the opinions of other men... God gave me the Living Word and a Holy Spirit to guide me in wisdom and understanding. I like to depend mostly on that vs. the opinions of mere men, that's all.



I don't have time to look up all the verses on 'birds' to show you different meanings behind them but some are clearly demonic.


I agree...



In this case I don't think there are any birds at all...I think its figurative..to add impact to the verse.


But where does it stop being figurative and start being literal? And when does it stop being literal and start being figurative? This is why I do not solely rely on Revelations. I weigh all the verses together to draw a conclusion...and often times I am still waiting for that conclusion.

(Rev 19:21) "The rest of them were KILLED with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds GORGED themselves on their flesh."

The Scripture clearly says they were KILLED. (Figuratively killed??)
The Scripture says they were KILLED with the sword from his mouth. (Figuratively killed??)
The Scripture says the BIRDS GORGED themselves. (Figurative birds figuratively gorging??)
The Scripture says they gorged on FLESH. (Figurative flesh??)

NT:615 - (KILL)
<GREEK>a)poktei/nw
<END GREEK> apokteino (ap-ok-ti'-no); from NT:575 and kteino (to slay); to kill outright
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance)


NT:4561 - (FLESH)
<START GREEK>sa/rc
<END GREEK> sarx (sarx); probably from the base of NT:4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties [physically or morally] and passions), or (specifically) a human being.

napsnsnacks
Oct 27th 2008, 07:32 PM
One thing I've been thinking about a lot is what will happen when the new world order is established. As Christians, where would we hide out? Obviously everyone who doesn't have the mark will be considered the worst criminal and will have to hide ferociously from the government. I think the church would really truly have to come together and become one body of believers and hide out in parks and caves and underground bunkers.

It's very interesting but it gets a person thinking.

You'd have people that would take turns at a post watching for guards or security that they wouldn't find you, and you'd have others that would run for firewood and supplies; you couldn't carry a cell-phone or gps or any other device that works with satellite or radio frequencies lest they pinpoint you; perhaps a smart computer-savvy Christian could figure out how to unscramble the old analog airwaves (everything goes digital in February and analog is being retired) and use it for communication between hideouts? Non-stop prayer and worship? Man...we should really be planning for such things!

When it comes to running from a one world government with that running and hiding in this context would be fear, this I think is all that a Christian should know:

2TIM 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I'm not stocking up on food, weapons and ammo. I would be murdered for my food or be force to kill who knows how many people to keep the food. That is if anyone has guns and ammo after they are all confiscated.

Food is not worth fighting for.

MT 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

I'm not building a bunker.

Put me in prison.

Cut my head off.

I don't care.

JOB 8:9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow:)

No running and hiding.

To me it is not an option.

As for the analog frequencies, they will be in use, just not for TV and radio.

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by moonglow http://bibleforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?p=1841797#post1841797)
You just agreed the Sword wasn't literal...but now say it is? :confused


Oh boy! :kiss:
Okay... I do not think that the sword that comes out of Jesus' mouth will have a handle on it with a long piece of pointy sharp metal. I do not *think* he will be shooting arrows or swords from his mouth!! :lol: Hey! But he can do anything he wants since he is God!!

Hopefully I am clear on that.

This is what I said that you misquoted me or misunderstood me on...



If Jesus doesn't physically fight or kill anyone, then how can the birds gorge on FLESH?

Jesus destroys (KILLS) the wicked by his Sword. He is IS GOING TO KILL, even though some like to only think of him as a soft, meek, gentle fellow. And the birds will gorge themselves on the flesh of those that Jesus destroys.


Exactly how he is going to kill and destroy the flesh of the wicked for the birds to gorge themselves on, I have no idea really. Perhaps as was already stated on here, he will just speak it and it will be done. I'm not too concerned about trying to figure out those details to be honest. All I know is that he's going to destroy the wicked! Yes, our beloved, gentle, kind, compassionate Lord is going to show his other side and release his wrath. I know it's hard for some people to accept that... but that is what the word says. That's all I know.

WoW! Did we.. or I... just hi-jack this thread?? Sorry.

Anyone come up with that Tribulation Survival Kit yet? :lol:

Alrighty then... God bless,

Alyssa

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 27th 2008, 07:53 PM
Following the idea of Snacks,

If we remember the time of the tabernacle, and the sanctuary, the atonement day, the people was to :

Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. Leviticus 23:27

And back to the Tribulation/Time of trouble [as the story of Jacob and the Angel], there is a mighty promise so to say.

When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.

Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation. Habakkuk 3: 16-18.

Fareyewell

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 08:12 PM
ERRR....Moonglow, This was not my post or quote... you got the wrong person! ;) But I do believe, when considering there are billions of people living on this earth, that it is quite possible the blood shed will be great. Do I believe it is a literal "right up to every horses bridle for miles and miles??" Of course not! It is symbolic. Please don't assume that those of us on here that don't believe like you do are ignorant to the fact that Revelation is a very symbolic book and difficult to understand. We clearly understand that there is much symbolism.

Sorry! The quote messed up...I didn't realize it had bolded your name there...I wasn't replying to you but to ph33r or I wouldn't have put the bible commentary in there since you don't care for them. I went back and edited it. It did have ph33r there but it got outside the quote somehow and your name got bolded...I don't know how that happened! sorry!

As for what you said on here...well I don't know how to address it since I wasn't talking to you to start with...:hmm: The thing is many do think everything in Revelation is literal...like ph33r seems too. Since I can't read minds I have no way of knowing who takes it literally to the extreme and who doesn't...

God bless

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 08:15 PM
[quote=moonglow;1842721]

Not to be rude but, do you believe humans are symolically going to be killed and persecuted? I am curious as to what you take as symolism and what you take as physical truth. Not to be rude but you do realize there is a large belief that the last battle will be in meggido which has valleys amongst a bunch of mountains. With a 200 million person army each person having 5.6 liters of blood, your looking about 1.1 BILLION liters of blood.

Do I believe 1.1 Billion liters of blood will be spilled? No I do not.

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 08:38 PM
:lol: That would be nice if that were the truth, eh??




I was thinking the same thing. And it isn't about ganging up on ya, Moonglow. I know your heart for the Lord is strong! I just don't agree with some of your theology. But I respect your heart.

God bless,
Alyssa

That's fine...no one has to agree with me at all. :) And yes I do love the Lord above all else as I know you do.


Alyssa S

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonglow
You just agreed the Sword wasn't literal...but now say it is?
Oh boy!
Okay... I do not think that the sword that comes out of Jesus' mouth will have a handle on it with a long piece of pointy sharp metal. I do not *think* he will be shooting arrows or swords from his mouth!! Hey! But he can do anything he wants since he is God!!

Hopefully I am clear on that.

This is what I said that you misquoted me or misunderstood me on...

Quote:
If Jesus doesn't physically fight or kill anyone, then how can the birds gorge on FLESH?

Jesus destroys (KILLS) the wicked by his Sword. He is IS GOING TO KILL, even though some like to only think of him as a soft, meek, gentle fellow. And the birds will gorge themselves on the flesh of those that Jesus destroys.
Exactly how he is going to kill and destroy the flesh of the wicked for the birds to gorge themselves on, I have no idea really. Perhaps as was already stated on here, he will just speak it and it will be done. I'm not too concerned about trying to figure out those details to be honest. All I know is that he's going to destroy the wicked! Yes, our beloved, gentle, kind, compassionate Lord is going to show his other side and release his wrath. I know it's hard for some people to accept that... but that is what the word says. That's all I know.

WoW! Did we.. or I... just hi-jack this thread?? Sorry.

Anyone come up with that Tribulation Survival Kit yet?

Alrighty then... God bless,


Yes I got confused on that post of your because first you said you realized the Sword coming out of His mouth meant the word of God then went on using the sword saying He would kill them with it...so yea...it was confusing.

Oh I know the Lord will pour His wrath out on the wicked...I have no doubts about that at all. I don't think anyone on here doubts that. In the OT expressions were used like this: (sorry to use another bible commentary but for me to look this up would take quite some time and I would still same the same thing he does here:)
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; ; Ezekiel 32:7,8, Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9,10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7,8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30,31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth-darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

The fall of Babylon was foretold like this...using express language:
Isaiah 13:9

9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Isaiah 13:10

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine

How did they really come to destruction? Through another nation invading them! None of this above happened in a literal way, but it doesn't mean the destruction was no less worse.

The destruction of Egypt foretold:

Ezekiel 32:7

7 When I put out your light,
I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.

Ezekiel 32:8

8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you,
And bring darkness upon your land,’
Says the Lord GOD.

Most of the time nothing supernatural happened...this is expressive language. Usually an enemy nation came in and did the destroying. Not always though...at times God did do it Himself. He controls and directs the nations.

But see what I am saying? You agree that Revelation is symbolic..that of course doesn't mean that there isn't something literal that happens...but too many miss it because they are taking it too literally. The sun and moon and all of that being foretold was in regards to Jerusalem being destroyed and the temple...not that the sun would really go dark or the moon really turn red. though some weird cosmic things did happen before hand!


Tribulation Survival Kit

Prayer!

:lol:

God bless

moonglow
Oct 27th 2008, 08:51 PM
Okay... :)


Nope... Again, I am not saying that Jesus will be literally stabbing people.

Were the wicked destroyed in the flood?
Were the wicked destroyed in Soddom and Gommorah?
Were the wicked destroyed by Israel and Joshua?

YUP!
And THEY will STILL face judgment!! I did not say their SOUL was destroyed. I simply said they were killed-destroyed!

C'mon, now. :)

Everything in the OT is done in the physical sense to show how destruction can come upon the soul. It doesn't make sense to me to see the wicked physically killed then rejoined with their bodies to be judged and destroyed again in the lake of fire. Its not just our souls that stand before the judgment seat.

If Jesus literally physically kills them though that is up to Him of course. Doesn't mean we can kill them.


napsnsnacks

When it comes to running from a one world government with that running and hiding in this context would be fear, this I think is all that a Christian should know:

2TIM 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I'm not stocking up on food, weapons and ammo. I would be murdered for my food or be force to kill who knows how many people to keep the food. That is if anyone has guns and ammo after they are all confiscated.

Food is not worth fighting for.

MT 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

I'm not building a bunker.

Put me in prison.

Cut my head off.

I don't care.

JOB 8:9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow

No running and hiding.

To me it is not an option.

As for the analog frequencies, they will be in use, just not for TV and radio.

Great post!

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 27th 2008, 09:10 PM
Well, number one, You don't need to be rude. If what I said seemed rude, then I certainly apologize.
If you didn't like my post, you could skip over it. I haven't liked many of yours, but I haven't been rude to you. Nevertheless, you are certainly free to answer them anytime you wish.
Second, I don't need to calm down, I am calm...:)Very well, I will take your word for it.
As for the 'ones belief in the rapture?' attitude, that is just your interpretation of what I was saying, not what I was actually saying, so if you are annoyed, you can lay the blame at your own feet. :)I have no problem with your beliefs regarding the Rapture. Your beliefs are different than mine, but I respect your right to hold a different belief. What I was taking issue with was your words “I believe everything in the Bible, don’t you?”, which would seem to imply that the other person doesn’t believe part of the Bible. I know it’s sometimes very frustrating when other people don’t see things the same way (just ask Quiet Dove, I have some pretty serious issues with that myself sometimes. :D ), but to accuse somebody of not believing part of the Bible based on that is not really necessary.
My point to the person I posted to was that I DO believe in the rapture, that I read it in the Bible, and that I believe it BECAUSE it's in there. I believe in it as well, although at a different time than you do. In my experience, when a believer says they “don’t believe in the Rapture”, 90% of the time that means they don’t believe it’s a separate occurrence from the 2nd Coming, as in they believe it’s post-trib.
I don't think asking someone if they believe everything in the Bible is a bad question.That depends on the intent behind the question.
Many people don't, but in your haste to jump on me, you didn't think about that...obviously. :)I actually waited about an hour after I saw your post before replying because I knew that my immediate tendency would be to react harshly, so I gave myself time to calm down.
As for your not understanding my Jesus isn't saving us right now thing, the poster didn't seem to understand that Jesus' work on the cross already saved us.Well, I don’t agree, but since it wasn’t my post that we’re talking about, I probably should just step aside and let iyulchik respond to that issue.
But again, in your haste for fresh blood, you attacked. :)OK, let’s make an agreement with each other here. I’m going to choose to assume that everything you say is going to be meant in a spirit of Christlike love. In return, I will do the best I can to make sure that everything I say is meant in a like manner. And in return on your part, I would ask that you give me that same benefit of the doubt. Whatever we have said to each other to this point is already done and in the past. From this point forward, let’s choose to speak to each other as two believers who are on the same side, even if we disagree on some details about that same side. Fair enough?
As for pinning the trib on satan, number one, that is not entirely true, and number two, The poster did not just pin it on satan. The poster was intimating that satan has a right to have a "wrath."I’m confused how you arrived at that conclusion, but again, I should probably just step aside and let iyulchik respond.
The Bible never calls it satan's wrath. That is true, I tend to disagree with the exact wording that was used, but I did understand the meaning behind it, that the Tribulation is not God’s wrath. That was the point being made, simply that the Tribulation is not the time of God’s wrath.
The only mention of it says that he comes down "having"
great wrath...( Rev. 12:12 ) which is not the same thing.I can agree with that. :yes:
I just wanted the poster to understand that any power satan has, he gets from God. he has to have permission, he can't just do as he wills, that is for God. Hence the conclusion that any wrath that comes from Satan is actually God’s wrath? Mmmm, that’s kind of stretching it, but I do at least see your line of reasoning there. I don’t agre with it, however, but I do respect your position.
As for your statement that what you believe is "not what I have seen before..." uhm, you are being a little prideful and presumptuous there, don't you think.I said what I did only because my positions are somewhat unusual. I have never seen them echoed in a book. (Not that I’ve read that many.)
You need not believe that you are the only authority I need listen to, or that you have the only truth I or anyone else has ever seen. In my opinion, which is what you have given me a lot of, you are just in error. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Did you consider what I was saying and prove it wrong (in which case I would appreciate you sharing with me so I can get myself straightened out) or did you decide I was wrong because it’s different from what you believe? How did you arrive at that decision?
That doesn't make me better, nor do I believe it does, but you seem to have a healthy dose of pride.Again, can we please agree to assume that the other is operating from sincere purposes, even if we disagree (for the moment) on our conclusions?
And why would I have a struggle answering your question? It's one that has been asked by lots of people. Believing you are the first one to ask me that is also quite prideful. It says before...and that's what it means. :)The reason I threw out that question about Joel 2:31 is because it states that the sun and moon are going to get dark “before” the Day of the Lord. But most Pre-Tribbers say that the entire Tribulation is the Day of the Lord, so therefore Joel 2:31 would have to occur before the Tribulation, yet the Sixth Seal is the same events as Joel 2:31, so therefore the Sixth Seal apparently occurs before the Day of the Lord, meaning that at least the first six Seals are before the Day of the Lord. When that was pointed out to me, back when I was a diehard Pre-Tribber, that was one of the main things that got me thinking that maybe, just maybe, I need to reconsider my position.

I just figured if you’re interested in finding out the real truth (whatever it is, even if it’s really Pre-Trib), you would want to have a way to reconcile that verse with your scenario.

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 27th 2008, 09:18 PM
for the real thing I would go to Israel and run into the hills with them (or wherever they are supernaturally protected for the rest of the time)

Alyssa S
Oct 27th 2008, 10:49 PM
That's fine...no one has to agree with me at all. :) And yes I do love the Lord above all else as I know you do.



Yes I got confused on that post of your because first you said you realized the Sword coming out of His mouth meant the word of God then went on using the sword saying He would kill them with it...so yea...it was confusing.

Oh I know the Lord will pour His wrath out on the wicked...I have no doubts about that at all. I don't think anyone on here doubts that. In the OT expressions were used like this: (sorry to use another bible commentary but for me to look this up would take quite some time and I would still same the same thing he does here:)
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; ; Ezekiel 32:7,8, Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9,10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7,8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30,31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth-darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

The fall of Babylon was foretold like this...using express language:
Isaiah 13:9

9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Isaiah 13:10

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine

How did they really come to destruction? Through another nation invading them! None of this above happened in a literal way, but it doesn't mean the destruction was no less worse.

The destruction of Egypt foretold:

Ezekiel 32:7

7 When I put out your light,
I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.

Ezekiel 32:8

8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you,
And bring darkness upon your land,’
Says the Lord GOD.

Most of the time nothing supernatural happened...this is expressive language. Usually an enemy nation came in and did the destroying. Not always though...at times God did do it Himself. He controls and directs the nations.

But see what I am saying? You agree that Revelation is symbolic..that of course doesn't mean that there isn't something literal that happens...but too many miss it because they are taking it too literally. The sun and moon and all of that being foretold was in regards to Jerusalem being destroyed and the temple...not that the sun would really go dark or the moon really turn red. though some weird cosmic things did happen before hand!


Prayer!

:lol:

God bless

Yes! The Power of Prayer! Amen.... we most definitely agree there!

Thanks for your posts, Moonglow. I did not realize that you believe the Tribulation has already occured. I am not of that belief and it would probably do us no good to discuss these particular topics further considering you believe much of the prophecy above has already happened, whereas I believe it is yet to be fulfilled.

I believe the moon and stars will stop shining and the stars (meteors) will fall from the sky before the return of our Savior. I believe these are the signs of his return. I believe there will be a catclysmic event, and that Jesus will be the ONLY star that will light up the sky when he returns in all of his glory.

But that's just me. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

IamRyan
Oct 28th 2008, 12:25 AM
No..instead you would be worrying about keeping YOUR head on your shoulders...literally...and be wishing all you had to worry about was homework.

School is no different then when I was in it...I had to do hours of homework and essays...I don't know why you think its harder...in fact American kids have alot less school work then those from other countries...that is why our test scores are so bad now compared to other countries...:(

God bless

Anyone who reads this, I am not bragging or anything of the sort about school now, I am purely telling the facts.

Did you have to take a test in 8th grade for freshman year, 2 big tests for practice ACT sophmore year, a practice ACT and practice SAT plus the real ACT a minimum of one time, usually 3 or 4? What about having to wear lanyards with your ids around your neck, getting 2 detentions just for being late 5 times for the whole semester? Or a 15 page term paper that took a whole semester of junior year english plus a summer reading book and essay over the summer? I'm just saying school of the baby boomer age had much easier standards than now.

And I wouldn't be lazy as you seem to think if the end was here. I would take all that time from essays and work and devote it all to preaching and witnessing. Nothing from this seems lazy to me.

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 12:28 AM
Anyone who reads this, I am not bragging or anything of the sort about school now, I am purely telling the facts.

Did you have to take a test in 8th grade for freshman year, 2 big tests for practice ACT sophmore year, a practice ACT and practice SAT plus the real ACT a minimum of one time, usually 3 or 4? What about having to wear lanyards with your ids around your neck, getting 2 detentions just for being late 5 times for the whole semester? Or a 15 page term paper that took a whole semester of junior year english plus a summer reading book and essay over the summer? I'm just saying school of the baby boomer age had much easier standards than now.

And I wouldn't be lazy as you seem to think if the end was here. I would take all that time from essays and work and devote it all to preaching and witnessing. Nothing from this seems lazy to me.
IN some ways they do a lot more in school and in others a lot less. Frankly it should be illegal for them to make you do "summer" reading outside of normal instructional time. That's my feeling on it anyways.

IamRyan
Oct 28th 2008, 02:37 AM
Yeah, plenty of people read anyways, and I'd bet half just go to sparknotes for their book.

But what I said is probably easier than what some schools have it. Especially some in other countries.

cwb
Oct 28th 2008, 03:47 AM
The reason I threw out that question about Joel 2:31 is because it states that the sun and moon are going to get dark “before” the Day of the Lord. But most Pre-Tribbers say that the entire Tribulation is the Day of the Lord, so therefore Joel 2:31 would have to occur before the Tribulation, yet the Sixth Seal is the same events as Joel 2:31, so therefore the Sixth Seal apparently occurs before the Day of the Lord, meaning that at least the first six Seals are before the Day of the Lord. When that was pointed out to me, back when I was a diehard Pre-Tribber, that was one of the main things that got me thinking that maybe, just maybe, I need to reconsider my position.

I just figured if you’re interested in finding out the real truth (whatever it is, even if it’s really Pre-Trib), you would want to have a way to reconcile that verse with your scenario.

I am just curious, what makes you believe the tribulation begins before the sixth seal. What do you see in the first 5 seals that causes you to believe they are part of the tribulation?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 05:41 AM
I am just curious, what makes you believe the tribulation begins before the sixth seal. What do you see in the first 5 seals that causes you to believe they are part of the tribulation?By "tribulation", I assume you mean Daniel's Seventieth "Seven"? (And no, I'm not a Pre-Wrather, in case you recognize that phrase from Marvin Rosenthal's book. :) )

To be totally honest, that's an issue that I'm actually exploring right now. I've always assumed the seven seals are all contained within that magic seven years pretty much because that's just the most popular line of thought. If there are reasons to believe to the contrary (that don't involve allegorizing any Scriptures), I'm certainly open to ideas. Do you have any to suggest?

napsnsnacks
Oct 28th 2008, 07:43 AM
[QUOTE=ph33r;1842769]

Do I believe 1.1 Billion liters of blood will be spilled? No I do not.

I don't know how much blood it will take but so far as the blood being up to the horses bridle goes and so many furlongs in length it must be taken as literal blood because the statement is in direct reference to people being KILLED for not taking the mark of the beast.

Beheading would generate such an amount of blood.

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 11:27 AM
By "tribulation", I assume you mean Daniel's Seventieth "Seven"? (And no, I'm not a Pre-Wrather, in case you recognize that phrase from Marvin Rosenthal's book. :) )

To be totally honest, that's an issue that I'm actually exploring right now. I've always assumed the seven seals are all contained within that magic seven years pretty much because that's just the most popular line of thought. If there are reasons to believe to the contrary (that don't involve allegorizing any Scriptures), I'm certainly open to ideas. Do you have any to suggest?


Hrms, I've read a few things recently suggesting that we live even now in a time of Tribulation, but that the Great Tribulation to come is what is being talked about. I've not fully researched the idea yet, but with a cursory glance I can see how some could see it that way.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 01:45 PM
If what I said seemed rude, then I certainly apologize.

thank you.




Nevertheless, you are certainly free to answer them anytime you wish.

also thank you.




Very well, I will take your word for it.
again, thank you.



I have no problem with your beliefs regarding the Rapture. Your beliefs are different than mine, but I respect your right to hold a different belief. What I was taking issue with was your words “I believe everything in the Bible, don’t you?”, which would seem to imply that the other person doesn’t believe part of the Bible. I know it’s sometimes very frustrating when other people don’t see things the same way (just ask Quiet Dove, I have some pretty serious issues with that myself sometimes. :D ), but to accuse somebody of not believing part of the Bible based on that is not really necessary.

for the first part of your answer, I agree. For the second part, there is a big difference between accusation and a question. I recently made a post giving the definitions of both, maybe if you have time you can go look that post up, if you care to?



I believe in it as well, although at a different time than you do. In my experience, when a believer says they “don’t believe in the Rapture”, 90% of the time that means they don’t believe it’s a separate occurrence from the 2nd Coming, as in they believe it’s post-trib.

I would agree with this assumption.


That depends on the intent behind the question.

The intent, as always, is my concern that people are not being taught that the Bible is inerrant, as well as being the Word of God. Many people today deem it okay to pick and choose what they will believe, and what they will discard.




I actually waited about an hour after I saw your post before replying because I knew that my immediate tendency would be to react harshly, so I gave myself time to calm down.

we are alike in this manner. I waited until today to look for your reply, for the same reasoning.



Well, I don’t agree, but since it wasn’t my post that we’re talking about, I probably should just step aside and let iyulchik respond to that issue.

you have every right not to agree. I thought otherwise or I wouldn't have responded the way I did.



OK, let’s make an agreement with each other here. I’m going to choose to assume that everything you say is going to be meant in a spirit of Christlike love. In return, I will do the best I can to make sure that everything I say is meant in a like manner. And in return on your part, I would ask that you give me that same benefit of the doubt. Whatever we have said to each other to this point is already done and in the past. From this point forward, let’s choose to speak to each other as two believers who are on the same side, even if we disagree on some details about that same side. Fair enough?

I wholeheartedly agree with this.







i'm confused how you arrived at that conclusion, but again, I should probably just step aside and let iyulchik respond.


That is up to you, as you have already responded. I came to that conclusion because God IS in charge. I do disagree that the tribulation is not God's wrath, but we can agree to disagree.
Quote:



That is true, I tend to disagree with the exact wording that was used, but I did understand the meaning behind it, that the Tribulation is not God’s wrath. That was the point being made, simply that the Tribulation is not the time of God’s wrath.

I disagree.




I can agree with that.

Thank you, it came straight from the Bible.



Hence the conclusion that any wrath that comes from Satan is actually God’s wrath? Mmmm, that’s kind of stretching it, but I do at least see your line of reasoning there. I don’t agre with it, however, but I do respect your position.

thank you.


I said what I did only because my positions are somewhat unusual. I have never seen them echoed in a book. (Not that I’ve read that many.)

doesn't that give you a moments pause? It would for me, however, I respect your belief in so far that you have a right to believe what you want. I too am not your average, 'go along with everyone elser.' :)
Quote:



How did you arrive at that conclusion? Did you consider what I was saying and prove it wrong (in which case I would appreciate you sharing with me so I can get myself straightened out) or did you decide I was wrong because it’s different from what you believe? How did you arrive at that decision?

I don't believe in the post trib rapture, and imo, ( which IS just my opinion ) I have proved it in many posts on this board. It is truly amazing that one book, that stays the same, can be read in so many ways...
Quote:



Again, can we please agree to assume that the other is operating from sincere purposes, even if we disagree (for the moment) on our conclusions?

of course




The reason I threw out that question about Joel 2:31 is because it states that the sun and moon are going to get dark “before” the Day of the Lord. But most Pre-Tribbers say that the entire Tribulation is the Day of the Lord, so therefore Joel 2:31 would have to occur before the Tribulation, yet the Sixth Seal is the same events as Joel 2:31, so therefore the Sixth Seal apparently occurs before the Day of the Lord, meaning that at least the first six Seals are before the Day of the Lord. When that was pointed out to me, back when I was a diehard Pre-Tribber, that was one of the main things that got me thinking that maybe, just maybe, I need to reconsider my position.

See this confuses me. Not sure why that made you re-think your position, but that is your call. I don't think the entire tribulation is the day of the Lord. I do not think the trib starts until or about the sixth seal and I don't see a problem with that belief?


I just figured if you’re interested in finding out the real truth (whatever it is, even if it’s really Pre-Trib), you would want to have a way to reconcile that verse with your scenario.

Thank you, and I didn't understand what you meant the first time.

Alyssa S
Oct 28th 2008, 01:49 PM
I don't know how much blood it will take but so far as the blood being up to the horses bridle goes and so many furlongs in length it must be taken as literal blood because the statement is in direct reference to people being KILLED for not taking the mark of the beast.

Beheading would generate such an amount of blood.

Yah, there will be a lot of bloodshed, for sure. I too, believe it is literal blood and literal killing. Since there is a lot of symbolism in Revelation, I am not exactly sure what this verse fully means by "blood being up to the horses bridle." Whether there is literally that much or not, it seems quite clear that there is going to be a tremendous amount of bloodshed.

iyulchik
Oct 28th 2008, 02:07 PM
Sorry, I'm not very good at figuring out the whole quote thing . . . I'm new to message boards.

So:

I understand that Jesus' death on the cross saved us. BUT it didn't save everybody. It had the power to. It COULD save everyone. But it didn't. Not everyone is going to be saved. Not everyone accepts the sacrifice. To say, "All I have to do is believe and I'll be saved" is baloney in my opinion. Satan believes Jesus exists. Satan knows Jesus exists. And he doesn't care. Jesus makes him angry. It's not just about Jesus dying for us. It's if we accept it and if we live our lives to show this and keep growing and learning in Him.

Would it make you feel better if I said Satan's anger? Satan is downright ticked off that people would dare to stand against him. He doesn't want to go down, but the more people he can take down, the better he feels. Wrath, anger, ticked-offness, fury . . . To me, it's pretty much the same thing. He's angry. He's hateful. I wasn't trying to say Satan has a right to have wrath. He has no right. There is no logical explanation for sin. If sin were logical, it wouldn't be sin. It would be right. But it's wrong.

God could not just stop everything that's happening in the world. Well, He could, but it would go against His nature. It would go against who He is. He said "This and this and this" will happen before it's over. Those things haven't happened yet, so He's not going to go back on His word. Also, to just stop man from doing evil would be to take away man's choice. Part of what makes us different from animals is we have a conscience. We can have morals. We can discern between right and wrong. We see the results of sin and want it to end, but a time has been determined for its abolition and until then, things are going to go downhill.

Ok. I need to run and teach. My students are waiting for me! I'll finish later!

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 02:19 PM
Sorry, I'm not very good at figuring out the whole quote thing . . . I'm new to message boards.

So:

I understand that Jesus' death on the cross saved us. BUT it didn't save everybody. It had the power to. It COULD save everyone. But it didn't. Not everyone is going to be saved. Not everyone accepts the sacrifice. To say, "All I have to do is believe and I'll be saved" is baloney in my opinion. Satan believes Jesus exists. Satan knows Jesus exists. And he doesn't care. Jesus makes him angry. It's not just about Jesus dying for us. It's if we accept it and if we live our lives to show this and keep growing and learning in Him.

Would it make you feel better if I said Satan's anger? Satan is downright ticked off that people would dare to stand against him. He doesn't want to go down, but the more people he can take down, the better he feels. Wrath, anger, ticked-offness, fury . . . To me, it's pretty much the same thing. He's angry. He's hateful. I wasn't trying to say Satan has a right to have wrath. He has no right. There is no logical explanation for sin. If sin were logical, it wouldn't be sin. It would be right. But it's wrong.

God could not just stop everything that's happening in the world. Well, He could, but it would go against His nature. It would go against who He is. He said "This and this and this" will happen before it's over. Those things haven't happened yet, so He's not going to go back on His word. Also, to just stop man from doing evil would be to take away man's choice. Part of what makes us different from animals is we have a conscience. We can have morals. We can discern between right and wrong. We see the results of sin and want it to end, but a time has been determined for its abolition and until then, things are going to go downhill.

Ok. I need to run and teach. My students are waiting for me! I'll finish later!

See that's a works salvation then. That's not what the bible preaches. Yes the demons know who Christ is, and trembles, the bible says this. What is necessary is a belief in Christ's sacrifice for sins, that through the blood he shed on the cross for our sins that if we trust him for our salvation he will save us. The demons and the devil are not given this choice.

Now in the context of the end times. I am curious. Is it the Devil having his way? his anger on the earth that is what causes this great tumult? Or is it God essentially letting satan off the leash to do as he pleases so that his words are kept as true? I'm more inclined to believe the later. Whether the agent of this evil is Satan or not, nothing happens in this World that God does not allow. That does not interfere with man's own ability to make choices, God is active even today in the lives of men. A reading of Job would be useful for understanding this. God allowed Satan to test Job. It wasn't God who brought the calamity against Job and his House, it was Satan. Does that mean it wasn't also a test from God? I'm not so sure about that.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 02:32 PM
Sorry, I'm not very good at figuring out the whole quote thing . . . I'm new to message boards.

So:


I understand that Jesus' death on the cross saved us. BUT it didn't save everybody. It had the power to. It COULD save everyone. But it didn't. Not everyone is going to be saved. Not everyone accepts the sacrifice. To say, "All I have to do is believe and I'll be saved" is baloney in my opinion.

John 3:16~For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
When we are saved, God changes us. If we are not changed, we were never saved. There is no work that we could do to save ourselves.
Ephesians 2:8-10



8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 4:22-26

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:















Satan believes Jesus exists. Satan knows Jesus exists. And he doesn't care. Jesus makes him angry. It's not just about Jesus dying for us. It's if we accept it and if we live our lives to show this and keep growing and learning in Him.

The only way we can do this is through the power of God. We can't do it oursleves. You understand this, right?



Would it make you feel better if I said Satan's anger? Satan is downright ticked off that people would dare to stand against him. He doesn't want to go down, but the more people he can take down, the better he feels. Wrath, anger, ticked-offness, fury . . . To me, it's pretty much the same thing. He's angry. He's hateful. I wasn't trying to say Satan has a right to have wrath. He has no right. There is no logical explanation for sin. If sin were logical, it wouldn't be sin. It would be right. But it's wrong.


Ok. I see where you are coming from. :)


God could not just stop everything that's happening in the world. Well, He could, but it would go against His nature. It would go against who He is. He said "This and this and this" will happen before it's over. Those things haven't happened yet, so He's not going to go back on His word. Also, to just stop man from doing evil would be to take away man's choice. Part of what makes us different from animals is we have a conscience. We can have morals. We can discern between right and wrong. We see the results of sin and want it to end, but a time has been determined for its abolition and until then, things are going to go downhill.
I agree. But for the record, God COULD stop it, and I believe you are correct in your reasoning as to why He doesn't. But I have to add that we don't have anything, not even breath, without God. So we live for, or against, God, by His Holy power. That is an awesome thought, isn't it? To know that those who hate God can only do so through His power...


Ok. I need to run and teach. My students are waiting for me! I'll finish later!
ok...later...:)

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 02:37 PM
See that's a works salvation then. That's not what the bible preaches. Yes the demons know who Christ is, and trembles, the bible says this. What is necessary is a belief in Christ's sacrifice for sins, that through the blood he shed on the cross for our sins that if we trust him for our salvation he will save us. The demons and the devil are not given this choice.

Now in the context of the end times. I am curious. Is it the Devil having his way? his anger on the earth that is what causes this great tumult? Or is it God essentially letting satan off the leash to do as he pleases so that his words are kept as true? I'm more inclined to believe the later. Whether the agent of this evil is Satan or not, nothing happens in this World that God does not allow. That does not interfere with man's own ability to make choices, God is active even today in the lives of men. A reading of Job would be useful for understanding this. God allowed Satan to test Job. It wasn't God who brought the calamity against Job and his House, it was Satan. Does that mean it wasn't also a test from God? I'm not so sure about that.


I think it was God allowing satan to test him. That's how it reads in my Bible. And I do agree. satan can do nothing without God's permission. But, I can concede that I see where they are getting that it's satan's wrath. I have heard it this way: the first half of the trib is satan's wrath, the second is God's. I just can't agree with that for many reasons that I wouldn't begin to write of here. I will say that the first part will be a false peace...which many think will be easier than physical calamities, which I also disagree with. Being deceived by the devil and damning your soul to hell is a lot worse than getting killed physically, so I just don't understand the reasoning behind these kinds of thoughts,

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 02:37 PM
Yes! The Power of Prayer! Amen.... we most definitely agree there!

Thanks for your posts, Moonglow. I did not realize that you believe the Tribulation has already occured. I am not of that belief and it would probably do us no good to discuss these particular topics further considering you believe much of the prophecy above has already happened, whereas I believe it is yet to be fulfilled.

I believe the moon and stars will stop shining and the stars (meteors) will fall from the sky before the return of our Savior. I believe these are the signs of his return. I believe there will be a catclysmic event, and that Jesus will be the ONLY star that will light up the sky when he returns in all of his glory.

But that's just me. :)

God bless,
Alyssa

I really don't think it matter what my views are on this to discuss this....I never said all of Revelation was fulfilled...certainly not the Second Coming of Christ! But that is fine if you want to stop..

I believe Jesus will return like this:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

God bless

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 03:09 PM
Anyone who reads this, I am not bragging or anything of the sort about school now, I am purely telling the facts.

Did you have to take a test in 8th grade for freshman year, 2 big tests for practice ACT sophmore year, a practice ACT and practice SAT plus the real ACT a minimum of one time, usually 3 or 4? What about having to wear lanyards with your ids around your neck, getting 2 detentions just for being late 5 times for the whole semester? Or a 15 page term paper that took a whole semester of junior year english plus a summer reading book and essay over the summer? I'm just saying school of the baby boomer age had much easier standards than now.

And I wouldn't be lazy as you seem to think if the end was here. I would take all that time from essays and work and devote it all to preaching and witnessing. Nothing from this seems lazy to me.

No one said you were lazy...I said it seems really odd to want to trade this...and yes I know its stressful...to worry about losing your head literally. Seems like twisted thinking to me! Have you done the research to see how the schools were in the baby boomer days to know if we had it easier or not? The only difference may be having to wear an ID...but that depends on which school someone went too. But seriously...what is so horrible about wearing an ID? And yes we had to do all that studying you have to do now also and take the same tests or similar tests. And yes I got detention also! So did alot of other kids...we survived. In fact back then they also spanked us with boards! Shocking at that may sound...I dated a guy in high school that got in trouble for something and had to get 'swats' by the principle at age 16! with a board! Not some little wimpy board either. The fact in the schools is American are doing very badly compared to other countries. 20/20 did a show on it awhile back...its quite eye opening...Stupid in America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw)

At any rate..my concern is actually wondering if you are suffering from depression right now to even be thinking this way. If the tribulation started you would be running for your life..NOT preaching and witnessing! If you had read some of this thread you would see those that follow the beast are already lost...their names are not written in the book of life...there is no witnessing to them to save them...

Revelation 13

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I mean its like asking to enter hell instead of having to do school work...you just have no idea what you are asking for here...the beast is given all authority over us!

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:41 PM
Sorry, I'm not very good at figuring out the whole quote thing . . . I'm new to message boards.I'd send this to you via Private Messaging, but I see yours isn't active yet, so we'll just do it here in this thread. :)

Here's a quick primer on how to slice and dice other people's posts. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gif

Just click on the "Quote" button down at the lower right, and the quote will appear in the message window where you can type, as you have probably already seen. The quote begins with the person's name/handle, followed by the post number the quote comes from, then the actual quote itself. Sometime there will only be a certain part of the other person's post you wish to respond to, and it might clarify things to only include that part of the quote on your post. To specify exactly which part of the quote you wish to reply to, just delete the words in the quote that you do not wish to address. Just make sure you don't alter any of the words you leave behind. Personally, I don't even correct typos/spelling errors. The reason is because other readers can click on the little blue/black arrow at the beginning of the quote (after you post it) to jump to the original post the quote came from (that's the purpose of the post number at the beginning of the quote), and if anybody were to discover that you were changing anybody's quote, that could be a big problem for you.

Now, deleting words from a post to isolate the part you wish to address is no problem. I do it all the time, as you can see that I did to your post as well. You just have to make sure that what words you do include in the post appear exactly as they were in the original post.

To do what I call "running replies", where you break down a post with your own comments interspersed throughout the other person's post, it's a tiny little bit more involved. The easiest way to do it is to go to the very top left of the reply window, where the quote you're replying to is after the blinking cursor.

Type this exactly as you see it here: [/QUOTE] (Oh, and just so you know, uppercase or lowercase makes no difference.)

So now the first thing in the reply window is something like this: [/QUOTE]


Then, using the shift and arrow keys on your keyboard, highlight that entire part, including the brackets.

Then press <Ctrl+C> on your keyboard so the
is now on your clipboard.

Then, go down through the post and use <Ctrl+V> to insert the
where ever you wish to insert any comments. You'll just have to put the cursor here
before you start typing.

After you type your comment, just go on down the quote to the next place you wish to insert any comments and do the same thing over again until you get to the end of the post and you've sliced and diced the other person's entire post to your heart's content.

But before you click the "Submit Reply" button, make sure you go back to the top of the other person's quote where you first inserted the and delete it, otherwise your post will look weird. Just be sure and leave the [QUOTE=iyulchik;1843721] part that was originally there.

One other suggestion: If you would like to experiment around with it, you can go to the "Test Posts" forum (located here (http://bibleforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=8)) and start your own test thread, type in whatever junk text you would like to experiment around with quoting (like "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs", for instance) and try various combinations to get the effect you're looking for.

And don't worry about botching anything up in there. The whole point of the "Test Posts" forum is for you to have a place where you can make mistakes and not get in trouble over it.

Comprende? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/biggrin1.gif

Hope this helps. :yes:

OK, http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thtopic.gif

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 03:44 PM
Here's a quick primer on how to slice and dice other people's posts.


I wouldn't have said it in such a way....but I just LOVE that little smiley guy....http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gif

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:48 PM
I understand that Jesus' death on the cross saved us. BUT it didn't save everybody. It had the power to. It COULD save everyone. But it didn't. Not everyone is going to be saved. Not everyone accepts the sacrifice. To say, "All I have to do is believe and I'll be saved" is baloney in my opinion. Satan believes Jesus exists. Satan knows Jesus exists. And he doesn't care. Jesus makes him angry. It's not just about Jesus dying for us. It's if we accept it and if we live our lives to show this and keep growing and learning in Him.
See that's a works salvation then. That's not what the bible preaches. Yes the demons know who Christ is, and trembles, the bible says this. What is necessary is a belief in Christ's sacrifice for sins, that through the blood he shed on the cross for our sins that if we trust him for our salvation he will save us. The demons and the devil are not given this choice.I think you might be misunderstanding iyulchik. What iyulchik appears to be saying (as far as I can tell) is that if you really were saved, it will show by the way you live your life - the fruit of the Spirit. I didn't get the impression that you have to do anything to "earn" your salvation from iyulchik's post. What came across to me was that, once we have received that salvation by grace, the evidence of that salvation that we have already received will manifest itself in the works that are the Spirit's fruit. There not a thing wrong with that.
Now in the context of the end times. I am curious. Is it the Devil having his way? his anger on the earth that is what causes this great tumult? Or is it God essentially letting satan off the leash to do as he pleases so that his words are kept as true?It's both, actually.
I'm more inclined to believe the later. Whether the agent of this evil is Satan or not, nothing happens in this World that God does not allow.Very true. :yes:
That does not interfere with man's own ability to make choices, God is active even today in the lives of men. A reading of Job would be useful for understanding this. God allowed Satan to test Job. It wasn't God who brought the calamity against Job and his House, it was Satan. Does that mean it wasn't also a test from God? I'm not so sure about that.That's a question that has had theologians debating for centuries. Take a number. :D

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:53 PM
I wouldn't have said it in such a way....but I just LOVE that little smiley guy....http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gifI was deliberately putting it in the most cold-blooded way I knew how just for the effect. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/spy.gif

And by the way, that'll be :2cents: for use of my smiley. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/cool.gif

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 03:59 PM
I was deliberately putting it in the most cold-blooded way I knew how just for the effect. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/spy.gif

And by the way, that'll be :2cents: for use of my smiley. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/cool.gif



LOL, well as long as I owe you, you'll never be broke....:lol: :)

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 04:28 PM
Literalist-Luke,

I agree with what your saying, that's surely an issue we likely won't solve in our life times of debating. If I misunderstood iyulchick, I apologize. There was a slight worry that I might have. I am in agreement that a true faith will show fruit. What fruit? Why how about the fruits of the spirit? (Love, Joy, Peace, etc.)

Anyhow....

iyulchik
Oct 28th 2008, 05:56 PM
Literalist-Luke,

I agree with what your saying, that's surely an issue we likely won't solve in our life times of debating. If I misunderstood iyulchick, I apologize. There was a slight worry that I might have. I am in agreement that a true faith will show fruit. What fruit? Why how about the fruits of the spirit? (Love, Joy, Peace, etc.)

Anyhow....





Yes. Sorry, maybe my statement wasn't very clear. I was saying that when we truly accept Jesus' sacrifice, it should be evident to those around us. There should be something different. It's not enough to say, "Thanks, Jesus" once and then never look back to Him again. We have to constantly look to Him and see what He wants us to do. What He wants us to know. We have to continually grow and learn and be open to what He has to show us. Our faith needs to be active. It's not enough to go to church at Christmas and Easter but spend the rest of the time involved in activities that lead us away from God. We will grow love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Those things come from acting on our faith and letting it grow. :)

I agree that God lets Satan do things. Without God's permission, Satan wouldn't be able to lift a finger. But God knows that to completely destroy Satan and sin before everyone has had the chance to learn that "the wages of sin is death" would be to show injustice. People know there is suffering in the world, but they don't all know why. Some people think the world is all there is. Oi. Man. I was onto a really cool thought in my head . . . Now it kinda stopped . . . But yes. God lets Satan do things, but it doesn't mean it is from God. He knows that by going through trials and hard times, we are going to grow. Some people "accept" Jesus, but when the hard times come, their faith goes right out the window. Other people accept Jesus and grow as they struggle. It's sooo hard, but so beautiful when you get to the other side. It's amazing to look back and see how the things I struggled and begged to end brought amazing changes into my life.
Oh! That reminds me of the song "Mountain of God" by Third Day. Amazing!

AliveinChristDave
Oct 28th 2008, 08:04 PM
This is an interesting thread.
One point I'd like to make is there seems to be a consensus that persecution only takes place during the tribulation period.
There have been believers who faced hard times of persecution since the first century.
Rome rounded up Christians and burned them at the stakes or fed them to the lions.
The Waldeneses of Northern Italy were slaughtered by the thousands during the 12th century. They hid in caves and wandered from place to place to escape persecution.
Recently thousands of Christians were killed when the communist took over Ethiopia in the 50's.
There are reports over 100,000 North Korean Christians are in concentration camps today. China has killed thousands of Christians over the past 30-40 years. Uganda warred against Christians in the 80's. There have been thousands of Christians killed in Sudan. The Assyrians of Northern Iraq have been hunted down and killed for years. I read over 80,000 Christians are unaccounted for since we invaded the country.
America is not immune to persecution. We won't escape. We're told not to let that day overtake us. Believers have to be prepared regardless of what you believe about end times.
Persecution will come before the end times. The hand writing is on the wall.
We may have to leave our homes and families and possessions to escape the turmoil facing our nation. If we sit around without preparing for the future then we will suffer loss.
We don't trust in things but there's nothing wrong with taking care of ourselves. Lots of people will be disappointed because they will face insurmountable hardships unprepared because they thought the Lord would take care of them when in fact the Lord wanted them to take care of themselves.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 08:09 PM
OK, ok...apparently everyone is misunderstanding my point. I want to clarify that I don't mean we shouldn't take care of ourselves, because I do believe God wants that. I, however, want to make sure that people understand that they aren't really doing it on their own, God is doing it through them. Without Him, we can't even breathe.
As to the above poster, you are exactly correct. There are many many people who are suffering persecution today, but I was speaking of during the tribulation in particular. But you bring up a good point. Maybe by looking at the people who are now being persecuted, it will be more understood what I am getting at? God Bless.

Veretax
Oct 28th 2008, 09:17 PM
This is an interesting thread.
One point I'd like to make is there seems to be a consensus that persecution only takes place during the tribulation period.
There have been believers who faced hard times of persecution since the first century.
Rome rounded up Christians and burned them at the stakes or fed them to the lions.
The Waldeneses of Northern Italy were slaughtered by the thousands during the 12th century. They hid in caves and wandered from place to place to escape persecution.
Recently thousands of Christians were killed when the communist took over Ethiopia in the 50's.
There are reports over 100,000 North Korean Christians are in concentration camps today. China has killed thousands of Christians over the past 30-40 years. Uganda warred against Christians in the 80's. There have been thousands of Christians killed in Sudan. The Assyrians of Northern Iraq have been hunted down and killed for years. I read over 80,000 Christians are unaccounted for since we invaded the country.
America is not immune to persecution. We won't escape. We're told not to let that day overtake us. Believers have to be prepared regardless of what you believe about end times.
Persecution will come before the end times. The hand writing is on the wall.
We may have to leave our homes and families and possessions to escape the turmoil facing our nation. If we sit around without preparing for the future then we will suffer loss.
We don't trust in things but there's nothing wrong with taking care of ourselves. Lots of people will be disappointed because they will face insurmountable hardships unprepared because they thought the Lord would take care of them when in fact the Lord wanted them to take care of themselves.

ACtually, I've never said there isn't tribulation today, of course there is, its just that what we experience today pales in comparison to what the bible foreshadows is coming.


Hrms, I've read a few things recently suggesting that we live even now in a time of Tribulation, but that the Great Tribulation to come is what is being talked about. I've not fully researched the idea yet, but with a cursory glance I can see how some could see it that way.

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 09:55 PM
This is an interesting thread.
One point I'd like to make is there seems to be a consensus that persecution only takes place during the tribulation period.
There have been believers who faced hard times of persecution since the first century.
Rome rounded up Christians and burned them at the stakes or fed them to the lions.
The Waldeneses of Northern Italy were slaughtered by the thousands during the 12th century. They hid in caves and wandered from place to place to escape persecution.
Recently thousands of Christians were killed when the communist took over Ethiopia in the 50's.
There are reports over 100,000 North Korean Christians are in concentration camps today. China has killed thousands of Christians over the past 30-40 years. Uganda warred against Christians in the 80's. There have been thousands of Christians killed in Sudan. The Assyrians of Northern Iraq have been hunted down and killed for years. I read over 80,000 Christians are unaccounted for since we invaded the country.
America is not immune to persecution. We won't escape. We're told not to let that day overtake us. Believers have to be prepared regardless of what you believe about end times.
Persecution will come before the end times. The hand writing is on the wall.
We may have to leave our homes and families and possessions to escape the turmoil facing our nation. If we sit around without preparing for the future then we will suffer loss.
We don't trust in things but there's nothing wrong with taking care of ourselves. Lots of people will be disappointed because they will face insurmountable hardships unprepared because they thought the Lord would take care of them when in fact the Lord wanted them to take care of themselves.

While this is an excellent post in pointing out how Christians have and are suffering a tribulation....where does it say in the bible we have to take care of ourselves?

Matthew 6

31 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. 33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.

The bible clearly says God will take care of our needs. Doesn't mean we won't suffer abuse or death....but worrying about the day to day survival stuff, food, clothing...He says He will take care of our needs.

God bless

Ethnikos
Oct 28th 2008, 10:29 PM
The bible clearly says God will take care of our needs. Doesn't mean we won't suffer abuse or death....but worrying about the day to day survival stuff, food, clothing...He says He will take care of our needs.
What that verse is talking about is the practice that the early Christians had of sharing possessions and helping the poor.
What he is warning about is people holding back because they are worried about their own future.
It is ridiculous to think we are not to provide for ourselves.
We should provide for ourselves and have enough to help others.
Voluntarily having a lack, just burdens everyone else.

cwb
Oct 29th 2008, 01:22 AM
By "tribulation", I assume you mean Daniel's Seventieth "Seven"? (And no, I'm not a Pre-Wrather, in case you recognize that phrase from Marvin Rosenthal's book. :) )

To be totally honest, that's an issue that I'm actually exploring right now. I've always assumed the seven seals are all contained within that magic seven years pretty much because that's just the most popular line of thought. If there are reasons to believe to the contrary (that don't involve allegorizing any Scriptures), I'm certainly open to ideas. Do you have any to suggest?

By "tribulation", I mean the 42 month period the beast the beast "is given to continue". I as of right now do not see anything in the first five seals that show me whether they are opened before or after the beast's 42 month reign. Therefore I do not see that the verse you quoted from Joel 2 necessary proves that the rapture must occur after the reign of the beast. Since the 144,000 are sealed after the moon turning red leads me to believe God's full wrath does not begin with the opening of the sixth seal.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 01:31 AM
By "tribulation", I mean the 42 month period the beast the beast "is given to continue". I as of right now do not see anything in the first five seals that show me whether they are opened before or after the beast's 42 month reign. Therefore I do not see that the verse you quoted from Joel 2 necessary proves that the rapture must occur after the reign of the beast. Since the 144,000 are sealed after the moon turning red leads me to believe God's full wrath does not begin with the opening of the sixth seal.I would actually suggest that the Day of the Lord wrath begins shortly after the Sixth Seal is opened.

cwb
Oct 29th 2008, 01:42 AM
I would actually suggest that the Day of the Lord wrath begins shortly after the Sixth Seal is opened.

Are you saying that the sixth seal is opened after the beast's 42 month reign? If so, why do you believe that? From reading the first 5 seals, I do not see that the beasts reign has even begun before the sixth seal is opened.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 01:46 AM
Are you saying that the sixth seal is opened after the beast's 42 month reign? If so, why do you believe that? From reading the first 5 seals, I do not see that the beasts reign has even begun before the sixth seal is opened.Who do you think instigated the martyring of the saints in the Fifth Seal?

cwb
Oct 29th 2008, 01:57 AM
Who do you think instigated the martyring of the saints in the Fifth Seal?

Saints have been martyred in the first century. They have also been martyred in the second century, fifth century, 15th century and 21st century and all centuries in between. I have always read the fifth seal to be talking about all the saints who were murdered since the first century.

moonglow
Oct 29th 2008, 02:49 AM
What that verse is talking about is the practice that the early Christians had of sharing possessions and helping the poor.
What he is warning about is people holding back because they are worried about their own future.
It is ridiculous to think we are not to provide for ourselves.
We should provide for ourselves and have enough to help others.
Voluntarily having a lack, just burdens everyone else.

Um no...I think you have the time line there confused. This is Jesus talking...the first Christian churches didn't even start to get set up until after He ascended to Heaven. THEN they were willing sharing with each other, but it wasn't required to do that at all...there was no warning in the passage I posted except to not worry about where your food and drink came from...

Anyway read the entire passage in content..it has totally nothing to do with the churches...since they didn't exist yet. This is about how God provides FOR us! Individually...

Matthew 6

25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Remember any book in the bible titled Matthew, Mark, Luke or John is about Jesus' life and His teachings. So the first churches aren't starting to get set up until after these books..in Acts and on.

There are more passages on God providing for us also.

Again this is Jesus talking:

Matthew 7

7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him.

And there are many examples in both the Old Testament and the New where God literally provided food for those in need. He fed the Hebrew bread from Heaven when they were out in the desert and had no food...He provided water from a stone. A prophet was sent to a woman and her son during a famine and the Lord provided food for them all so they didn't starve. It goes on and on and on...there is no scriptures saying we just have to fend for ourselves especially during the worse possible time in history! No verse that says during the tribulation God will not provide for us and we have to go it alone.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 03:06 AM
Saints have been martyred in the first century. They have also been martyred in the second century, fifth century, 15th century and 21st century and all centuries in between. I have always read the fifth seal to be talking about all the saints who were murdered since the first century.Oh, OK, well see, that issue of precisely when the seals actually begin is precisely what I'm looking into right now, so to be totally honest, I'm not really ready to answer that yet. In the past, I would have said something along the lines of "Well, the Antichrist kills them during the Tribulation", which I suspect is what most people here would say, but I want to investigate this more before I just start spewing opinions about it. It might be a couple of days or more before I feel ready. (It took me over a year to decide where I stand regarding the Rapture. :o )

IamRyan
Oct 29th 2008, 03:26 AM
No one said you were lazy...I said it seems really odd to want to trade this...and yes I know its stressful...to worry about losing your head literally. Seems like twisted thinking to me! Have you done the research to see how the schools were in the baby boomer days to know if we had it easier or not? The only difference may be having to wear an ID...but that depends on which school someone went too. But seriously...what is so horrible about wearing an ID? And yes we had to do all that studying you have to do now also and take the same tests or similar tests. And yes I got detention also! So did alot of other kids...we survived. In fact back then they also spanked us with boards! Shocking at that may sound...I dated a guy in high school that got in trouble for something and had to get 'swats' by the principle at age 16! with a board! Not some little wimpy board either. The fact in the schools is American are doing very badly compared to other countries. 20/20 did a show on it awhile back...its quite eye opening...Stupid in America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw)

At any rate..my concern is actually wondering if you are suffering from depression right now to even be thinking this way. If the tribulation started you would be running for your life..NOT preaching and witnessing! If you had read some of this thread you would see those that follow the beast are already lost...their names are not written in the book of life...there is no witnessing to them to save them...

Revelation 13

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I mean its like asking to enter hell instead of having to do school work...you just have no idea what you are asking for here...the beast is given all authority over us!

God bless

Exactly, all who worship him are not in the Book of Life. The earth won't be filled with Christians and AntiChrist followers only. So saying there wil be no one left to witness to is a misinterpretation of the Scripture. Also, I never said when the tribulation starts, I said when it I know it begins. So there will be plenty of time to witness to my classmates.

Also, I don't see how someone can be depressed when they just want to be done with pointless tasks. Yes, I am depressed, I want to hang out with my friends, strengthen my relationship with the Lord, and not havr to do essays. If this was just me now, I would be anything but depressed.

glory2b
Oct 29th 2008, 07:59 AM
I have been reading the posts here and had somethings to add to the whole hiding at the 'end times'. I don't believe God gave us brains and intended us not to use them. I believe even the word speaks on being prepared. The word also speaks on lack of knowledge is how his people perish, as nicely displayed on someones ending posts. You know what struck me as interesting in the word Matt. 24:16 speaks of those in Judea fleeing to the mountains and the next verse as one on the roof top not to come down,ect. I believe we are all leading and living different individual lives with specific Godly purposes and each of our deaths will be different. Wether it be by antichrist police delivering us up to be afflicted andn killed(as in matt. 24:9 speaks of) or in the wilderness by a bear attack or old age as those fleeing to the mountains as in matt. 16 speaks of or by getting by a bus tomorrow OR by Matt. 24:13 enduring to the end....we all are weaved in HIS plan with different plans for our lives and all are equally important. I personally think the main thing for me is to get closer to him through prayer & his word AND I study & practice survival skills and keep an up to date emergency gear pack...just in case...what could it hurt!? Maybe I'll be here when the end comes and will flee to the mountains or maybe I'll be in what I think is the wrong place at the wrong time & be carried up to the police & killed or maybe endure to the end......

AliveinChristDave
Oct 29th 2008, 03:21 PM
While this is an excellent post in pointing out how Christians have and are suffering a tribulation....where does it say in the bible we have to take care of ourselves?

Matthew 6

31 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. 33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.

The bible clearly says God will take care of our needs. Doesn't mean we won't suffer abuse or death....but worrying about the day to day survival stuff, food, clothing...He says He will take care of our needs.

God bless

God does take care of our needs above and beyond what we think or ask.
But the Word of God differentiates specifically between being wise or foolish.
Like the wise servant in Matt. 24, we should provide for our households.
Being prepared for the future is one way we provide.
To sit while I have the opportunity to lay up for my family and friends would be sinful.
I've been buying silver for several years. God spoke to me and told me too do that. I don't have a clue as to how it will help me in the future.
I also raise vegetables. My wife and I freeze and can things we grow.
I trust the Lord but trust without obedience is faulty to say the least.
We have to use common sense.

Ethnikos
Oct 29th 2008, 03:30 PM
Um no...I think you have the time line there confused. This is Jesus talking...the first Christian churches didn't even start to get set up until after He ascended to Heaven. THEN they were willing sharing with each other, but it wasn't required to do that at all...there was no warning in the passage I posted except to not worry about where your food and drink came from...
Anyway read the entire passage in content..it has totally nothing to do with the churches...since they didn't exist yet. This is about how God provides FOR us! Individually...
You have to go all the way back to the beginning of the chapter.
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Jesus did not establish the church or a church? There are nice quotes from Jesus in the Gospels that were to be disseminated to the wider world but they come out of his teaching that was creating a church.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 03:40 PM
I have been reading the posts here and had somethings to add to the whole hiding at the 'end times'. I don't believe God gave us brains and intended us not to use them. I believe even the word speaks on being prepared. The word also speaks on lack of knowledge is how his people perish, as nicely displayed on someones ending posts. You know what struck me as interesting in the word Matt. 24:16 speaks of those in Judea fleeing to the mountains and the next verse as one on the roof top not to come down,ect. I believe we are all leading and living different individual lives with specific Godly purposes and each of our deaths will be different. Wether it be by antichrist police delivering us up to be afflicted andn killed(as in matt. 24:9 speaks of) or in the wilderness by a bear attack or old age as those fleeing to the mountains as in matt. 16 speaks of or by getting by a bus tomorrow OR by Matt. 24:13 enduring to the end....we all are weaved in HIS plan with different plans for our lives and all are equally important. I personally think the main thing for me is to get closer to him through prayer & his word AND I study & practice survival skills and keep an up to date emergency gear pack...just in case...what could it hurt!? Maybe I'll be here when the end comes and will flee to the mountains or maybe I'll be in what I think is the wrong place at the wrong time & be carried up to the police & killed or maybe endure to the end......No argument here. :yes:

moonglow
Oct 29th 2008, 03:48 PM
Exactly, all who worship him are not in the Book of Life. The earth won't be filled with Christians and AntiChrist followers only. So saying there wil be no one left to witness to is a misinterpretation of the Scripture. Also, I never said when the tribulation starts, I said when it I know it begins. So there will be plenty of time to witness to my classmates.

Also, I don't see how someone can be depressed when they just want to be done with pointless tasks. Yes, I am depressed, I want to hang out with my friends, strengthen my relationship with the Lord, and not havr to do essays. If this was just me now, I would be anything but depressed.

How I am misinterpreting scriptures? If their names are in the book of life, they wouldn't be worshiping the beast...there is nothing in Revelation or any other end time related scriptures that says this can be changed in regards to their salvation once the tribulation starts. I see no scriptures saying their are undecided people at this time that we can witness too...

At any rate...yes you can be a good witness to your class mates now!

I am sorry school is stressing you out and it seems unimportant to you...I didn't exactly have a great time in school either. In fact going to school was pretty horrible for me because I had an undx learning disability that I got no help for. I have dyslexia and didn't know it then...didn't know I wasn't reading the text books right. I could read a chapter we were to be tested on over and over and over and still flunk the test. No matter how much I tried or how much I studied, I still flunked. I got bad grades on essayers and reports because my spelling and grammar were so bad.

Teachers passed me because they knew I was doing the best I could..they knew something was wrong but didn't know what or how to help me. This was back before they knew about learning disabilities. When I graduated from high school I was not happy...I knew I hadn't really earned it ...that the teachers just passed me for lack of not knowing what to do. I had to teach myself to read 'right' after I graduated. I couldn't read the newspaper, I couldn't fill out a job application, I couldn't even read a receipt right.

But I know in order to be able to even begin to do the work the Lord wants us to do...we have to have an education. If I hadn't worked hard after I got out of school to improve my reading...I probably still wouldn't be making much sense out of the bible. I would have to rely totally on what others told me it said. No one can study the bible like that. As it was I had already mislearned alot in the bible! I had to relearn many things in it all over again, because I did go by what preacher or other said and I tended to take everything literally to the extreme. Its taken me years to get things straighten out just in the bible!

Yes many things they teach in school seems useless and seems to not make sense or is useless as far as a future career or day to day living...but it builds character and endurance in us. We all have things we have to deal with that seems to be a waste of time and we ask God why do we have to do these things when we could be out preaching your Word instead? Why I am spending hours upon hours raking leaves, mowing the grass, cleaning house, running errands....boring, mindless things that seem to be robbing us of our time to do His Work. Why do people spend 40 hours a week working at a dead end job they can't stand? Because the bible teaches us not to be lazy...to not expect hand outs...to work for a living. Without and education, work is pretty hard to come by.

Even Paul in the bible, who traveled all over the place and started new churches...worked for a living. He was a tent maker.

And actually the bible address common labor and even education as being important.

First the Lord instructs us that six days out of the week are for work and the seventh we are to keep Holy and worship Him. If He didn't expect us to work He wouldn't have needed to make this commandment to start with.

Deuteronomy 5:13-15

13 You have six days each week for your ordinary work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your oxen and donkeys and other livestock, and any foreigners living among you. All your male and female servants must rest as you do.

Proverbs 12:14
Wise words bring many benefits,and hard work brings rewards.

Proverbs 12:24
Work hard and become a leader;be lazy and become a slave.

Proverbs 13:4
Lazy people want much but get little, but those who work hard will prosper.

Proverbs 12:1
To learn, you must love discipline; it is stupid to hate correction.

Proverbs 18:15
Intelligent people are always ready to learn.Their ears are open for knowledge.

If you don't get an education you can't get a good job...if you don't have a good job you cannot help those in need and will desperately wish you could. Working in McDonalds for the rest of your life doesn't sounds too appealing but that is where people end up that don't get an education.

Literally everything we do, we do for God.

God bless

glory2b
Oct 29th 2008, 07:45 PM
Nice to find people on same page as I am on.....ya know your not alone! Thx Luke!:D

Dani H
Oct 29th 2008, 08:12 PM
I have been reading the posts here and had somethings to add to the whole hiding at the 'end times'. I don't believe God gave us brains and intended us not to use them. I believe even the word speaks on being prepared. The word also speaks on lack of knowledge is how his people perish, as nicely displayed on someones ending posts. You know what struck me as interesting in the word Matt. 24:16 speaks of those in Judea fleeing to the mountains and the next verse as one on the roof top not to come down,ect. I believe we are all leading and living different individual lives with specific Godly purposes and each of our deaths will be different. Wether it be by antichrist police delivering us up to be afflicted andn killed(as in matt. 24:9 speaks of) or in the wilderness by a bear attack or old age as those fleeing to the mountains as in matt. 16 speaks of or by getting by a bus tomorrow OR by Matt. 24:13 enduring to the end....we all are weaved in HIS plan with different plans for our lives and all are equally important. I personally think the main thing for me is to get closer to him through prayer & his word AND I study & practice survival skills and keep an up to date emergency gear pack...just in case...what could it hurt!? Maybe I'll be here when the end comes and will flee to the mountains or maybe I'll be in what I think is the wrong place at the wrong time & be carried up to the police & killed or maybe endure to the end......

The referral to the roof top (housetop) means to not stop preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, regardless. What we hear in secret, we are to preach on the roof tops.

Matthew 10:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=27&version=50&context=verse)
“Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.

Mark 13:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=13&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house.

Same goes with the field, which speaks of God's harvest of souls in the world.

Matthew 24:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

Matthew 13:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=13&verse=38&version=50&context=verse)
The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

John 4:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=35&version=50&context=verse)
Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!

Matthew 9:37 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=9&verse=37&version=50&context=verse)
Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.”

What we are to do, is continue to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, in the highways and the byways, and compel them to come in, not take thought of our own lives (because he who seeks to keep his life will lose it), and to go about our Father's business, all the way until the end.

glory2b
Oct 29th 2008, 09:19 PM
I disagree. I am not saying stop preaching the gospel. I am not saying preserve one's 'self'. I am not saying go run & get martyred either...unless one feels so lead to do so. I have done mission work in countries that have underground churchs because of the government has already turned or is this way......self preservation is not the goal....the goal is always to further the gospel.Their are many ways this looks like! I think someone prepared could be of help to many...even those that are 'lost'!

Ethnikos
Oct 29th 2008, 09:28 PM
I think someone prepared could be of help to many...even those that are 'lost'!
Having experience with what looks to be coming here, helps to give you a perspective on things.
I did meet some people who visited with some underground churches in the old Soviet Union. That was a long time ago, but it impacted my thinking about religious suppression.
You need to be resourceful and work hard and not just give up.

cwb
Oct 29th 2008, 11:00 PM
Oh, OK, well see, that issue of precisely when the seals actually begin is precisely what I'm looking into right now, so to be totally honest, I'm not really ready to answer that yet. In the past, I would have said something along the lines of "Well, the Antichrist kills them during the Tribulation", which I suspect is what most people here would say, but I want to investigate this more before I just start spewing opinions about it. It might be a couple of days or more before I feel ready. (It took me over a year to decide where I stand regarding the Rapture. :o )

Hopefully you can start a thread on the issue when you're ready. It is an issue I am investigating as well. By the way, just for clarification on what I said about the fifth seal, I was not saying I believe that seal was opened in the first century. I was trying to say those saints could have been martyred long before the opening of the seal.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 01:07 AM
Just for clarification on what I said about the fifth seal, I was not saying I believe that seal was opened in the first century. I was trying to say those saints could have been martyred long before the opening of the seal.Got it, no problemo. :thumbsup:

glory2b
Oct 30th 2008, 03:17 AM
AMEN!!........:pray: