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ph33r
Oct 24th 2008, 07:26 PM
Just curious how other Christians feel about this since I hear the end times phrase being thrown around allot. If you support or don't support this view doesn't matter. I am just curious about your view. In order to keep this structured please post your reason for believing your viewpoint and any supportive evidence.

Thanks!

Orendorf
Oct 24th 2008, 08:07 PM
I believe we're getting close to the end of all this mess. "Close" can be interpreted rather widely, however. Could be 100 years from now but that would certainly be close considering how long the church age has been around so far.

cwb
Oct 24th 2008, 08:16 PM
I believe we're getting close to the end of all this mess. "Close" can be interpreted rather widely, however. Could be 100 years from now but that would certainly be close considering how long the church age has been around so far.

I do not see anybody ruling in this world who fits the description of the man of sin described in the bilble. Therefore I do not believe we are in the end times as of yet.

ph33r
Oct 24th 2008, 08:43 PM
I think we are begining to see a pull away from traditional christianity to a much more secular version of it and our culture is becoming increasingly hostile to christians but this could be from a number of things and does not necessarily indicate an end of times scenario.

Semi-tortured
Oct 24th 2008, 09:08 PM
To be perfectly honest, I'm not really sure what my End Times stance even is. There are parts of the Partial Preterist view that make sense. There are parts of the pre rapture, post rapture, futurist, etc. that make sense. I truly can't come to a conclusion of what is going to happen, let along look for the signs for it.

vinsight4u8
Oct 24th 2008, 09:15 PM
I believe that we are at the point of the 3rd seal and I watch for the Palestinians to fall. Iraq will come to the rescue - and the man of sin will begin to rule from Iraq at the 4th seal.

ph33r
Oct 24th 2008, 09:20 PM
I believe that we are at the point of the 3rd seal and I watch for the Palestinians to fall. Iraq will come to the rescue - and the man of sin will begin to rule from Iraq at the 4th seal.

Iraq is in utter shambles how do you propose it would rescue anyone (not trying to come across rude just curious?)

vinsight4u8
Oct 24th 2008, 09:31 PM
Iraq is in utter shambles how do you propose it would rescue anyone (not trying to come across rude just curious?)

Have you looked at Zechariah chapters 5 and 6? Note the land area that is mentioned at the end of chapter 5.

Shinar

Iraq's land


At the time of this chapter - Babylon has already fallen. The last king of Shinar has ruled. Yet, Zechariah gets shown that Shinar will come back strong one day.

I see the part as to the stork as being - it is for the appointed time.

"To build it an house in the land of Shinar"

a palace
A throne is to return again in the land of ancient Babylon's location.

It shall be established - means to start the kingdom.
Where?

"set there upon her own base"

The same place the kingdom was before.

ph33r
Oct 24th 2008, 09:39 PM
Have you looked at Zechariah chapters 5 and 6? Note the land area that is mentioned at the end of chapter 5.

Shinar

Iraq's land


At the time of this chapter - Babylon has already fallen. The last king of Shinar has ruled. Yet, Zechariah gets shown that Shinar will come back strong one day.

I see the part as to the stork as being - it is for the appointed time.

"To build it an house in the land of Shinar"

a palace
A throne is to return again in the land of ancient Babylon's location.

It shall be established - means to start the kingdom.
Where?

"set there upon her own base"

The same place the kingdom was before.

I know certian people feel that as soon as we leave Iraq the Al Queda will come pouring into the country, but I don't see them being enough of force to dominate the nations. They would need ALLOT of allies.

ph33r
Oct 24th 2008, 09:40 PM
Have you looked at Zechariah chapters 5 and 6? Note the land area that is mentioned at the end of chapter 5.

.




No I haven't but I will.

vinsight4u8
Oct 24th 2008, 09:51 PM
Here is a summary of what I believe is happening in chapter 5.

Zechariah sees a flying roll.
20 by 10 cubits
This is a curse....as in for some reason these dimensions have become like a warning - a bad thing will happen to you.

Why?
The only thing that I have come up with is that the temple that Solomon built had a porch that was 20 by 10 to enter it.

So say that all the world has been warned not to touch God's holy 20 by 10 place. Cross that porch wickedly and you will bring on your kingdom this 20 by 10 curse result.
It speaks of those that steal and swear falsely by His name.
I see that part due to God's name was put on the holy site forever - in the days of Solomon.

So to cross the porch of 20 by 10 wickedly - steal from inside the temple or such will bring on a nation this 20 by 10 curse.

The curse of - their house - kingdom
will be consumed
the timber and the stones of it

Babylon crossed wickedly that porch and has earned this curse on the land of Shinar, yet - Shinar was never consumed in such a manner.

So - Zecharah gets shown an ephah - as in a piece of shattered Babylon restored to Shinar - carried back to the land for her appointed time to be wicked again.

ph33r
Oct 24th 2008, 09:53 PM
If you read all of the chapters....Here is a summary of what I believe is happening in chapter 5.

Zechariah sees a flying roll.
20 by 10 cubits
This is a curse....as in for some reason these dimensions have become like a warning - a bad thing will happen to you.

Why?
The only thing that I have come up with is that the temple that Solomon built had a porch that was 20 by 10 to enter it.

So say that all the world has been warned not to touch God's holy 20 by 10 place. Cross that porch wickedly and you will bring on your kingdom this 20 by 10 curse result.
It speaks of those that steal and swear falsely by His name.
I see that part due to God's name was put on the holy site forever - in the days of Solomon.

So to cross the porch of 20 by 10 wickedly - steal from inside the temple or such will bring on a nation this 20 by 10 curse.

The curse of - their house - kingdom
will be consumed
the timber and the stones of it

Babylon crossed wickedly that porch and has earned this curse on the land of Shinar, yet - Shinar was never consumed in such a manner.

So - Zecharah gets shown an ephah - as in a piece of shattered Babylon restored to Shinar - carried back to the land for her appointed time to be wicked again.


Did you also realize that some of the views on how the jews will rebuild the temple is that the entrance will have to be left out because of space. Theres much more detail to this,the suggestion that the real temple site is south of the dome of the rock and they would have space but would have to leave out the entrance.

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 24th 2008, 10:03 PM
Disciples were preaching and teaching about the 'last days' .. the end of the world etc... even when the NT was written... If they were teaching and preaching it then... then we are 'much' closer now than they were back then.. thats 2,000 years ago.........

One would just have to take a 'spiritual' barmometer of things the way they are today.. people are very hostile to the Truth... Truth is twisted and perverted... Truth is called a 'lie' or untruth.. when 'lies' and false doctrine are ACCEPTED as 'truth'.....With just these 'simple' things one could discern where we are at... The end will be the 'rejection' of the True God of the Bible.... only to promote and follow and worship a 'lie''.. man in the end will believe he can become like 'God' and create His own Heaven on earth... man's way.... without Heaven 'returning' from Heaven as Promised in the book of Acts.... You either have 'Heaven' inside you or u dont have Him at all...

Today we are closer to His return for His Bride .... and the 'end of all things'....

vinsight4u8
Oct 24th 2008, 10:04 PM
Did you also realize that some of the views on how the jews will rebuild the temple is that the entrance will have to be left out because of space. Theres much more detail to this,the suggestion that the real temple site is south of the dome of the rock and they would have space but would have to leave out the entrance.

I see them as will leave out the outer court as it is given to the Gentiles...
I see that as not stolen by them one day

In Rev. 11 John measured for a future temple - but was told not to measure the outer court part.

I see Zechariah as in brief - Nebuchadnezzar entered into God's house - so now the curse was to enter into Babylon's house.

Zechariah 6 I see as revealing when this is to happen.
the mountains of brass - KJV
would represent the time of the Greek - or third empire of metal of Daniel 2

So in the latter days of the Greek Empire will come the days of the establishing again of the kingdom of Shinar.

To do this - it will take a rider on a white horse - thus the first ruler of Iraq - King Faisal.

go forth conquering and to conquer
- possess the land - start the nation

Zechariah was told about four spirits of the heavens.

I see the first horse time as the time of white =
the spirit of wisdom and with understanding one gets a crown delivered to him.

The white horses followed the black horses to a place called the north country.

land of the Euphrates River
the place that desolated Judah

IRAQ

So this land on the Euphrates must set the riders. How could a rider get on in say Europe or America, if the horse is drinking out of the Euphrates River area?

vinsight4u8
Oct 24th 2008, 10:30 PM
So what does a white horse rider show us?

Rev. 19 shows the Lord - and in righteousness He judgeth and makes war

How about Judges 5?
same type of thing
=
Israel started her nation - with rulers on white - that were to judge righteously.
Deuteronomy 1 reveals that they were to be men that were wise and had understanding.
They were to possess the land.

vinsight4u8
Oct 24th 2008, 10:36 PM
Zechariah 5 speaks of a curse and shows us that Shinar earned the outcome of the curse. Thus, Shinar must one day be rebuilt.
The resemblance of Shinar all over the earth was shattered pieces.
One piece - an ephah was returned to Shinar.

So - here come the horses in chapter 6.

Buzzword
Oct 24th 2008, 10:39 PM
I used to be really fired up about interpreting eschatological texts, but in recent years I've just stopped caring, especially as I've entered my 20s and re-started my college career.

I've found that living out Christ's love for others day-to-day and using my talents for His glory is quite enough work for me.

I don't need the stress that inevitably results from arguing over whether or not Christ will be back in our lifetimes.

I don't think He's coming back even during this generation, or maybe not for ten or a hundred generations more, and I think each and every one between now and then will claim to be THE LAST GENERATION.

I dunno, I've just seen too much Thessalonian-esque treatment of the end times by churches and old people who PRAISE GOD when people die, just because they interpret each and every catastrophe as another sign of Christ's return.

vinsight4u8
Oct 24th 2008, 10:50 PM
To each his own task. i believe that I'm to tell people a bit if they want to listen.

Most think Israel served time enough in Babylon back in the days of Daniel to fulfill Jeremiah 25:11.

But the truth is - How could that prophecy time have ended when the Babylonian kings were not over Israel the whole time of that 70-yr captivity?

Jeremiah's prophecy is referring to a Babylonian - not a Persian king.

This is the reason for Daniel chapter 9. Daniel was curious about that same prophecy. He had been reading the words of Jeremiah - and Gabriel came to reveal that it would be a long time before this "he" would finally rule in V27.

Dani H
Oct 24th 2008, 11:31 PM
Here is what I know for sure about the future:

1. God wins in the end.
2. Jesus is coming back. When? Not a clue.
3. I will forever be with my Savior. As will those I have entrusted into His care.

The rest, when I boil it down to where rubber hits the road, is pretty much just educated guesswork, and maybe a sense of things, without really knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt. And therefore subject to change, as far as my personal beliefs go.

How bout you guys?

immortality
Oct 25th 2008, 12:22 AM
Just curious how other Christians feel about this since I hear the end times phrase being thrown around allot. If you support or don't support this view doesn't matter. I am just curious about your view. In order to keep this structured please post your reason for believing your viewpoint and any supportive evidence.

like many other christians, god has made it quite clear to me, through his holy spirit, that the climax of things is right around the corner.

"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, reverently prepared an ark..." [hebrews 11:7]

like noah, true children of god accept the reality of the coming times by faith, and do not need any "evidence". for most humans, a substantial amount of tangible "proof" is necessary to become convinced. genuine christians, however, view the warnings they have discerned are from god as more than enough.

additionally, it should be quite apparent by now, in view of the current rather dire status of the world, that things are not looking hopeful. even non-christians are becoming increasingly suspicious.

so in this regard, there is indeed "evidence" there for those who want to recognize it. however, it seems much of humanity is not doings so - either out of sincere ignorance, or blatant denial.

DigReal
Oct 25th 2008, 12:53 AM
Looks like this thread is drifting... just a bit... from the OP. Only a little, but I sure want to address the OP specifically on this one.

And, I think this response is a little different. ;)

Background: I've been a wannabe scientist most of my life. Don't get me wrong, though, I've never been able to accept evolution... it's just not very scientific (and I don't want to derail this thread with debate on evolution). It's just that I usually find that science, the study of God's creation, is His proof of creation. At the same time, I only became a Christian a few years ago, and even with that, didn't take the Bible literally until last summer. Yet still, I always knew God through the study of His creation.

With that in mind, I've followed certain scientific trends over the years. For example, the population explosion. I think the earth could sustain maybe 10 or even 15 billion people, but believe mankind could never muster up the political will to make it happen. I'm shocked we have the will to handle 6.5 billion (no doubt, God has helped us get this far). Then there's climate change; no matter if you believe man is the cause, it's happening. Our data show the northern migration of many plants and animals... and disease carrying insects. The northern ice cap is literally falling apart before our eyes... with the Russians now rushing to claim the arctic for the energy reserves. Glacial ices in retreat are flooding farmland and villages. And so on and so on. (Don't want to derail this tread on this one either.)

Then there's our dependence on fossil fuels. Now come on folks, no one can believe oil will last forever? We're very near the point where demand has to outstrip the ability of the earth to give more, more, more.

And this has only been the nature side of it. ;)

Now, consider the human side. Plenty of famine in the world, and does that not drive the hungry to war? Plenty of energy addiction in the world, too, and does that not drive the addicted to war? Then there's the anti social... you know, terrorists and radicals. Have they not risen in power over the past decade? Have we (the majority of the world) not been fighting back? Are we (the majority) winning over them (the rapidly growing minority)? I know many would argue that we are (but please, don't... again, don't want to derail this thread.) Imagine what will happen when they get their hands on Pakistan.

I could really go on and on with this kind of stuff, but will stop here, since you're surely asking: "what's your point, Dig, if you don't want to derail this thread?"

For several years, I figured mankind would annihilate itself in maybe 30 to 50 years. But more recently, maybe the past several months, I realized we couldn't survive against ourselves more than 10 to 30 years. And this was without considering God's intervention! So, if, without God's intervention, I was expecting 10 to 30 years to be close to the end, imagine how much closer I think we are now that I DO consider God's intervention, what with all the stuff right there in the Bible!?

Anyway, that's my answer to the OP, that even without scripture we are close. With scripture... God promises to save us from ourselves... even sooner.

Okay, now you guys can derail the thread. But with :hug:

jeffweeder
Oct 25th 2008, 01:03 AM
Jesus said that the temple would be destroyed, the Jews exiled, Jerusalem trampled on by Gentiles ,until the times of the Gentiles were finished over Jerusalem.
This is equivalant of the Gospel going to the whole world and then the end coming

lk 21

and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."



Mr Greenspan spotted a tsunami just yesterday--real real big one.

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 01:08 AM
Mr Greenspan spotted a tsunami just yesterday--real real big one.
What does this mean???

jeffweeder
Oct 25th 2008, 01:29 AM
It was a little joke.
He refered to the current financial situation as a giant tsunami approaching, causing much perplexity among the nations.

tundra
Oct 25th 2008, 02:34 AM
It was a little joke.
He refered to the current financial situation as a giant tsunami approaching, causing much perplexity among the nations.

Yea I saw an article where a few of the comments he made were quoted. He did not seem to have too much optimism (an understatement) about the future of the economy.

Anyway, time will tell. As long as we are truly born again and living for Christ we will weather the storm no matter what is thrown at us. Lord, come quickly!

JesusMySavior
Oct 25th 2008, 02:47 AM
To those who are indifferent about the end times, I would like to point out that Jesus commands us to know when it is near. I see your side that one shouldn't worry about it, but who's going to prepare you if you can't be prepared yourself?

Have your lamps lit and your oil ready. As for me, what do I believe?

Watch my video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8hHlG98Ffk


I truly and firmly believe we will see the antichrist and the mark of the beast fully enforced within the next 5-7 years, if not sooner.

Why I believe this I could mention several reasons. Most of them are mentioned in the video above, but there's still way more beyond that. Christ could return VERY soon.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 03:13 AM
Just curious how other Christians feel about this since I hear the end times phrase being thrown around allot. If you support or don't support this view doesn't matter. I am just curious about your view. In order to keep this structured please post your reason for believing your viewpoint and any supportive evidence.

Thanks!A definitive answer is impossible until we all agree what is meant by "end times". How do you define "end times"?

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 03:35 AM
A definitive answer is impossible until we all agree what is meant by "end times". How do you define "end times"?
For the sake of this post a general 20-30 year period which would include buildup to the events in revelations all the way through to the establishment of the 1000 year period.

jeffweeder
Oct 25th 2008, 03:54 AM
Maybe we can define them as the time when God reached out to the world for the last time, and provided the way that all could be saved.
He waits patiently, as he saw you in the year 2008, born and then born again.
One day someone like lot will come along,or Noah, leave sodom, and it will rain fire and brimstone. God will see that every heart is bent on evil, just like in Noahs day, and the appointed time has come.


God's Final Word in His Son
Heb 1
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Let us tell people about it, as we come out of sodom....not looking back.

ph33r
Oct 25th 2008, 03:56 AM
Maybe we can define them as the time when God reached out to the world for the last time, and provided the way that all could be saved.
He waits patiently, as he saw you in the year 2008, born and then born again.
One day someone like lot will come along,or Noah, leave sodom, and it will rain fire and brimstone. God will see that every heart is bent on evil, just like in Noahs day, and the appointed time has come.



Let us tell people about it, as we come out of sodom....not looking back.

I'm the O.P. so I decide how to define it !:lol:

No, but on a serious note I like your description better.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 03:59 AM
For the sake of this post a general 20-30 year period which would include buildup to the events in revelations all the way through to the establishment of the 1000 year period.Great - thank you. In this case, I would suggest that we are NOT in the end times. I say this based on current trends and developments. The Tribulation is going to require a major sociological shift on a worldwide scale in two areas:

1. Most of the world's population is going to have to consider the death of a large group of people with a particular religious view to be advantageous for a prosperous society. Specifically, the world is going to have to go along with the Antichrist's efforts to exterminate all Christians and Jews from the planet. Granted, those two groups are not held in very high regard in large segments of the world's population today, but I would seriously doubt that a large majority would be willing today to sit by and watch while an event that makes Hitler's holocaust look like child's play is carried out before their eyes. At some point, the Bible is quite clear that this is precisely what will happen. Something is going to have to change the world's thinking to where most people will see Christians and Jews as being expendable, much as Jews were perceived in the Nazi Empire during the early 40's.

I don't know precisely what will lead the world into that kind of thinking, but it is going to have to happen before the Tribulation can get underway.

2. Along the same lines, the world is also going to have to be willing to bow the knee before a human and acclaim him as "god". Even if they don't really believe it in their hearts, they will at least outwardly have to go along with it. This is something that will be necessary for the fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast. This will probably be a smaller shift than the first item because the Bible says this guy will be able to perform miracles, so that would certainly contribute to convincing the world that he is worthy of being worshiped, but it will require the world's population to be open to the idea in the first place.

Each of these two things can be found as major items that are predicted in Islamic doctrine about the future. That is one of the main reasons why I am so convinced that Islam is the way the Antichrist will be ushered into the world. Regardless, however, we have some major changes that need to occur in this world before the final chapter begins.

My guess at this point would be a minimum of 40-50 years. But that's all it is, just a simple guess. Nothing more.

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 04:04 AM
The ac will be the ruler known as the "vile person" of Daniel 11:21. What we can do is watch for the events that are to happen before that so as to know that he is about to rule Iraq.

Daniel 11:20
shows that the world will be basically at peace with Iraq just before the vile person rules there


Daniel 11:15-19 shows a major war between Israel and Egypt from Iraq must end first.
Iraq as the "north"
Egypt as the "south"

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 04:09 AM
What we can do is watch for the events that are to happen before that so as to know that he is about to rule Iraq.Ahem. Turkey. :D

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 04:10 AM
Daniel 11's war that comes before verse 21 - ends where the leader is fleeing back to his land - but disappears after he falls and then can't be found. What if this section of war time ends with the covenant that is the one referred to in Daniel 9:27? The ac will confirm the covenant and Daniel 11:21 shows the vile person - overflows the prince of the covenant and then makes a league.

He will not persecute the church right away - as in the trib time - beast mark - image or such. That won't happen till the 6th trumpet (great tribulation).

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 04:11 AM
Ahem. Turkey. :D

You believe the man of sin comes from Turkey?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 04:16 AM
You believe the man of sin comes from Turkey?You got it. :D


http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/GogMagog-TableofNationsMap.jpg

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 04:26 AM
You got it. :D


http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/GogMagog-TableofNationsMap.jpg


Daniel 8 shows the little horn will come from the eastern section of the Greek Empire area.

waxes great
toward the south
toward the east
toward Israel

Israel is your given, so use it as a solid reference point.


Israel.....beast's land.....heads further east
.................and takes the south..........

Israel will be attacked from the east.

The bible shows that Babylon's prophecies must get fulfilled. Jeremiah 50-51 tells what is to happen and refers to how every man must flee Babylon.
The scene is that Israel is being held captive - and at the time of her release - all of them must leave.
This can't be referring to last time - for lots of people (including Daniel) never left the land of Babylon.
Yet, in the end times - all must flee there, so as to not receive of her plagues.

The Gog and Magog war prophecy also shows the rising of Babylon - for it shows that Gog's time comes when Israel has been brought back to her land from the sword.
That sword is the great tribulation time of her being scattered from her land by the sword of Babylon.

Gog comes to a place of non-fenced cities. Israel is a place then that will be dwelling safely.


Look at the end of Daniel 11 - for it too shows that the vile person comes from the east.

attacks Israel and Egypt
tidings out of the east and the north trouble him

.........................north troubles him.....................
Israel.............beast's land.............east troubles him
..................takes the south........................

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 04:48 AM
Daniel 8 shows the little horn will come from the eastern section of the Greek Empire area.

waxes great
toward the south
toward the eastHow can he “wax” toward the east if he’s from the east?
toward Israel

Israel is your given, so use it as a solid reference point. Considering that the prophecies in Daniel were delivered in Babylon/Susa/Iraq/Persia, I would think that would be the better reference point.

Israel.....beast's land.....heads further east
.................and takes the south..........

Israel will be attacked from the east.What about the numerous prophecies that speak of Israel being attacked specifically from the north, especially including Ezekiel 38-39?
The bible shows that Babylon's prophecies must get fulfilled. Jeremiah 50-51 tells what is to happen and refers to how every man must flee Babylon. I agree, and notice a few things about that: First of all who destroys Babylon?

Revelation 17:16 – “The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.”

So Babylon is destroyed by the Antichrist/Beast. Have you ever noticed that little detail before?

And look what Jeremiah has to say about this destruction of Babylon by the beast –

Jeremiah 50:3 – “ A nation from the north will attack her (Babylon) and lay waste her land.”

But then Jeremiah gets even more specific about who this land of the north is:

Jeremiah 51:27-28 – “Summon against her (Babylon) these kingdoms: Ararat, Minni and Ashkenaz. Prepare the nations for battle against her — the kings of the Medes.”

Ararat is in Turkey and Minni is in Armenia, where my map shows “Armenian Mountains”, just east of Ashkenaz. Notice also that Jeremiah includes the Medes in his list, which would also mean the Persians. Do you notice any other lists in the Bible that are similar to this list? Like Ezekiel 38?
The scene is that Israel is being held captive - and at the time of her release - all of them must leave.
This can't be referring to last time - for lots of people (including Daniel) never left the land of Babylon. That’s precisely my point – these things have never been fulfilled, so they are yet future.
Yet, in the end times - all must flee there, so as to not receive of her plagues.Exactly – and that destruction will be at the hands of the Antichrist.
The Gog and Magog war prophecy also shows the rising of Babylon - for it shows that Gog's time comes when Israel has been brought back to her land from the sword.I agree – Gog/Magog is Antichrist invading Israel at the midpoint of the Tribulation.
That sword is the great tribulation time of her being scattered from her land by the sword of Babylon.By the sword specifically of Antichrist, yes, but not Babylon.
Gog comes to a place of non-fenced cities. israel is a place then that will be dwelling safely.Which, being at the midpoint of their seven-year covenant with the Antichrist is precisely what one would expect to be the case at that point.
Look at the end of Daniel 11 - for it too shows that the vile person comes from the east.

attacks Israel and Egypt
tidings out of the east and the north trouble him

.........................north troubles him.....................
Israel.............beast's land.............east troubles him
..................takes the south........................I’m not seeing how this supports him being from the east anymore than it does from the north. Can you be more specific?

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 12:17 PM
Sure...

Israel is our given and our unknown is where the beast is from. First we know that he is not from Israel.
Then we are told he goes south and east. So that means Israel cannot be to his south or east.

vile person > goes east
goes south

and goes toward Israel

So Israel must be in the north or in the west.

Israel....
south
east
and these are our clues to find out where the beast is from


beast - goes east
Israel

Won't work because Israel is a separate area from the south.

beast goes east to Israel
This won't work either as the east is a location given to us as separate from the direction of Israel.

Israel......<.....beast....>........east< tidings trouble him

See how Israel must be found other than in the eastern direction?

If the beast's land is in the middle - then he can head one direction to attack Israel and head east - yet further to his east can come the tidings that will trouble him.

Daniel 11:21
"And in his estate shall stand up a vile person..."
,,,this evil person rises in the same land that the king of the north was from in V20.
"in his estate"

11:44
"But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him...."
V41
"He shall enter also into the glorious land..."

So the glorious land is not to his east or north.
He takes Egypt - so that eliminates him as from the south too.
Israel can only be found to his west.

north troubles him /and he cannot go south to attack Israel
Israel..........Iraq.........east troubles him
takes Egypt, Libya - the south

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 12:28 PM
If the beast area is to the north of Israel - it won't work as - south was given as a separate location.

tidings out of the north trouble him
beast
/but there is a problem as he can't go to the south to attack Israel



Israel
then further south would be Egypt

Also this would then not tell us what happens from the westerly direction.

You would have


tidings out of the north trouble him
the beast in the north
goes south to attack Israel
and Egypt

east is attacked and tidings out of the east trouble him

Yet, what happened to the west? The prophecy would not contain that information.
Yet, back in V30 ships of Chittim came against him.
So the prophecy picture already shows that the western area - will come to the aid of Israel.

tidings out of the north trouble him
ships of Chittim....Israel.....beast >east troubles him
...................beast takes the south.....................

Roelof
Oct 25th 2008, 01:25 PM
I believe the Last Days started in the Sabbatical Year 1986/7

Please read my thread:

Last Days - God planned eschatology and heavenly signs

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=133998

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 01:58 PM
The world has yet to witness the rise of the last Babylonian king. The king that will bring Jeremiah 25:11 to its conclusion and fulfill Daniel 9:27 at the same time.

For Daniel 9:27's he is the he that Jeremiah 25:11 is referring to.
the Babylonian

At the end of 70 years is when this Babylonian king will fall and his land of Chaldea. Okay, last time Cyrus took over Babylon after her reign of only about 66.5 years.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 25th 2008, 04:38 PM
Israel is our givenHow did you arrive at that conclusion when all of Daniel's prophecies originated from Babylon/Susa?

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 05:06 PM
How did you arrive at that conclusion when all of Daniel's prophecies originated from Babylon/Susa?

I start from where the angel came to Daniel to explain how prophecy will unfold.

Daniel 8 takes us to the time of the Greek Empire area and then out of it comes the little horn. Leaving us with just knowing the evil king will come from the area that was under the Greeks is not enough - so the angel goes into further detail.

V8
"...the he goat waxed very great...four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."
V9
"And out of one of them came forth a little horn..."
Here is where we get the clues to know which area of the Greek Empire to expect this little horn to come from.

V9
"...out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land]."

,,,This little horn is to prosper - or attack in three directions - south, east and toward Israel.
So Israel is our given (known fact) for this puzzle as - in we know where Israel is.
Then we understand that south and east are also other directions this little horn will conquer.

So Israel gets taken..........little horn........conquers east
................conquers the south....................

The angel has given Daniel the clues needed to know to expect this wicked king to come from the east.

Then we take that scenario and place it within the bounds of the former Greek Empire. The little horn must come from a land that is to the east of Israel and was part of the Grecian Empire.


V17
"...Understand...for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision."

Since Daniel's prophecies place the little horn as coming from the empire area of Greece - I see that as also why Zechariah saw the prophecy as to horses from between two mountains of brass (Zec. 6). In Daniel 2 - the third metal of the statue was brass.

Daniel 11 also limits us to the area that was under the Greeks and shows us to use Babylon.
V3
"A mighty king shall stand up, and rule with great dominion, and do according to his own will."
V4
"...his kingdom...shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven..."
V5
"And the king of the south shall be strong, and [one] of his princes..."
"his princes" refers to Alexander the Great: for it is discussing his land, "his kingdom"

It goes on to reveal that even though the guy of the south would be strong - yet stronger would be another of Alexander's princes. This story then takes off as to the kings of the north and the south battle each other over time.

Babylon - under Selecus
Egypt - under Ptolemy

V13 starts a section that is to begin "after certain years" have passed.
I see this whole part as taking us to the endtimes.
Daniel 10's (three full weeks vision) 21 years of sorrow falls within this time. At V21 comes the man of sin as the vile person. Which will be the guy for the vision that was shown to the prophet in chapter 10 as to a certain man - on the 24th day.

Danie 10 begins referring the readers to a vision that Daniel told us nothing about -other than - the time appointed was long (concerned a great battle) and he was in sorrow for three full weeks.
but - When we get to Daniel 11:14 we find that a vision story begins to unfold.
Here is what Daniel saw that made him sad.

vinsight4u8
Oct 25th 2008, 05:46 PM
Literalist-Luke

Hello to you

I'm going back now to touch on some other comments you made. I have made some notes as to Rev. 17 - I'm wondering what version are you using. I know some of the new versions make it out that the beast will burn his own city of mystery, Babylon, but that isn't right.

Rev. 17 -is a chapter about a city known as "mystery, Babylon".
Rev. 18 - is placed as "after" that part. We let chapter 17 end, then let chapter 18 begin a new story. A story about regular Babylon/ Iraq.
Rev. 18 is about the Babylon that made the nations drink. This happened in Jeremiah 25:15.

The chapter 17 city of mystery, Babylon wil fall before the place of regular Babylon for chapter 18. Then chapter 19 begins a new story again - as it too is noted as an "after" type of message.


Chapter 19 does refer to this fall of mystery, Babylon though as towards the start of the chapter - we find that the great whore city has been avenged.
"for he hath judged the great whore"

At about the time of the rapture is the fall of mystery, Babylon.

Jeremiah also foretold of this same pattern.
You know that chapters 50-51 are for the end times so....

Jer. 50:1 (KJV)
"The word that the LORD spake against Babylon, [and] against the land of the Chaldeans..."
As in -to say- listen Babylon - as this message is to you!

V7
"Babyon [hath been] a golden cup...that made all the nations drink..."
V12
"Your mother shall be sore confounded...a wilderness..."

The mother of Babylon is to fall first.

"she that bare you shall be ashamed"


Isaiah 33:9
"The earth mourneth, and lanquisheth: Lebanon is ashamed, [and] hewn down..."

Zechariah 9:3-4
"And Tyrus did build herself a strong hold, and heaped up silver...and fine gold as the mire of the streets."
"Behold, the LORD will cast her out, and he will smite her power in the sea; and she shall be devoured with fire."

Isaiah 23:15
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot."