PDA

View Full Version : Discussion Do christians still sin?



cowabunga
Oct 25th 2008, 12:22 AM
Recently I met a christian who claimed he does not sin anymore. He said if you really take these verses in the bible which speak about crucifying the flesh and not fulfilling the carnal desires anymore seriously then you can do it.
Personally I think that everybody who thinks he doesn't sin anymore is totally deceived.
But the problem is that there are really a lot of verses in the bible which are problematic because they sound as if you don't struggle with sin anymore when you're a christian because your old man is dead and you've put the flesh to death and so on. These things are simply written there but it does not say HOW.
And I have also listened to sermons where I got the impression that as a real christian you can't have any problems with sin anymore at least not with huge sins and if you don't make progress then you can't be a christian. But what do you do if you don't make progress?
I was also told by a christian that as a real christian you cannot sin habitually and that you only sin every now and then. Every now and then? Like every month?
It's basically the whole carnal christian debate. If carnal christians cannot exist then this means everybody who is carnal and struggles with sins can't be a christian. :confused

Kahtar
Oct 25th 2008, 12:49 AM
I f we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8 KJV)

If we were able to live a sinless life, there would be no need for Christ to have sacrificed.

We are a tripartate being. We have a spirit, soul and body. In spirit, we are raised up with Christ in heavenly places upon salvation, and thus, in spirit, we cannot sin.

But that says nothing of our soul or body. The fact is, every one of us, from the pastor to the toilet cleaner, is a sinful man, and there is absolutely no hope for any of us, outside of Christ and what HE did in our place. We are in the position of ABSOLUTE DEPENDANCE upon the blood of Christ. Without it, we will perish.

Our soul goes through a lifetime of learning, and that learning involves failure. When we learn one lesson, we move on to the next. Little by little we are refined.

For gold to be made pure, it requires going through the fire. The fire melts the gold, and the dross rises to the top, where it is scraped off. Hotter the fire, the more dross is removed.

As we go through the 'fires' of life, when things 'heat up' for us, that is when our 'dross' is scraped away.
Gradually we learn to walk in authority over our own emotions and desires, but it is a long, slow process.

Zack702
Oct 25th 2008, 01:05 AM
Luke 15:7
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

When I enter repentance I go so far as to repent the things that I haven't done. And all the times when I could of done better or should of done better but was slack.

But if the person is without sin and they truely do what they are capable of then praise be to them. I would encourge them and take notice but to boast of it isn't to bright.

jeffweeder
Oct 25th 2008, 01:20 AM
I need Christ everyday.
If you say the lords prayer daily, you ask for forgiveness daily.

Paul didnt find it easy it seems, but he kept running.


For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

MrsPierce
Oct 25th 2008, 01:24 AM
It is my beleif that once we become Christians that we sin less but are not sinless. When we become Christians we are filled with the Holy Spirit and so being we are convicted by the Holy Spirit when we do something that is not in accordance with God's teachings. I agree with you that someone who thinks that they don't sin because they are a Christian is being decieved. I have also heard Christians who claim that they are without sin.

I like Kahtar's example of the gold. I do think that is how it works.

itzme
Oct 25th 2008, 02:11 AM
I will believe it once I meet a Christian who does not sin....

SeekingWisdom
Oct 25th 2008, 02:43 AM
I'm not sinless, I just sin less. ;)

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 03:07 AM
We will never be perfect because we can sin in thought, however I think if we really try, we can be pretty much free of sin from physical standpoint. Everything we do starts with a thought and every thought starts in the mind. We think about sin before we do it. So, if we decide not to do it the we will not sin. There will always be instances beyond our control that may cause sin, but the vast majority of sin we commit could be avoided.

JesusMySavior
Oct 25th 2008, 03:45 AM
There's a fancy name for becoming more like God. It's called sanctification.

Whatever you want to call it, I believe to know if you are truly abiding in Christ is to see and know improvement and maturity in your spiritual walk with God, and to have a genuine hatred of sin.

We can't be freed if we still love our sin. And we can't hate our sin unless we ask God to cleanse us. So be honest with God and God will do the work in your heart to help you seek Him and see things through His perspective.

I used to get tripped up in 1 John a lot because it says that true Christians do not sin. If you realize what that means, it's a powerful book. It's actually one of my favorites. True Christians have crucified the sinful nature with Christ which means that they do not WANT to sin. It still happens sometimes but there's victory in Christ!

sheina maidle
Oct 25th 2008, 07:25 AM
There's a fancy name for becoming more like God. It's called sanctification.

Whatever you want to call it, I believe to know if you are truly abiding in Christ is to see and know improvement and maturity in your spiritual walk with God, and to have a genuine hatred of sin.

We can't be freed if we still love our sin. And we can't hate our sin unless we ask God to cleanse us. So be honest with God and God will do the work in your heart to help you seek Him and see things through His perspective.

I used to get tripped up in 1 John a lot because it says that true Christians do not sin. If you realize what that means, it's a powerful book. It's actually one of my favorites. True Christians have crucified the sinful nature with Christ which means that they do not WANT to sin. It still happens sometimes but there's victory in Christ!
:agree::amen:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

kkeller
Oct 25th 2008, 04:44 PM
I'm a christian, I struggle with sin, I pray, I read God's word, the Holy Spirit convicts my heart, I can't say the Holy Spirit is in me, but I know I'm a christian who struggles with sin and I know through the Grace of God and the priceless gift of Jesus Christ, my sins are forgiven.

chad
Oct 25th 2008, 08:40 PM
I believe that christians can sin after they have repented of sins.

If you believe that once you have repented of your sins (And it counts for past, present and any future sin), then surely anyone can just say the sinners prayer and then live any sort of life they want to. It doesn't matter becuase thier present and future sins are already forgiven and will be forgiven.

To me thats like, you say a sinners prayer once and then thats it for the rest of your life? No, I just can't get my mind to accept that.


Chad. :rolleyes:

BroRog
Oct 25th 2008, 08:43 PM
Everybody sins. Christians have the additional misery of knowing it.

JesusReignsForever
Oct 25th 2008, 09:17 PM
Absolutely! We are still sinner saved by grace.:saint:

Butch5
Oct 25th 2008, 09:28 PM
Absolutely! We are still sinner saved by grace.:saint:

Notice saved is in the past tense.

holyrokker
Oct 25th 2008, 10:10 PM
If we were able to live a sinless life, there would be no need for Christ to have sacrificed.

I disagree.

1st - Christ did not HAVE to die for us. He did so because He wanted to provide a way for us to be restored into a right relationship.

...I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. (John 10:17-18)


2nd - Our problem isn't one of inability to live sinless lives - it's our stubborn refusal to let go of our sin.
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Romans 5:10)

holyrokker
Oct 25th 2008, 10:16 PM
We are still sinner saved by grace. Notice saved is in the past tense.

Technically, that sentence is in the present tense. "Saved" is a participle and is being used in the passive voice.


I AM the grammar police! ;)

Kahtar
Oct 25th 2008, 10:19 PM
1st - Christ did not HAVE to die for us. He did so because He wanted to provide a way for us to be restored into a right relationship.

Right. He didn't have to. He wanted to. And He provided not 'a' way, but 'the only' way to be restored. All have sinned. All are guilty. And death will be paid in EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE. The question is, will you die for your own sins, or accept the death of Christ in your behalf?



2nd - Our problem isn't one of inability to live sinless lives - it's our stubborn refusal to let go of our sin.
Do you feel then that you are capable of living a sinless life? That your righteousness will be enough without Christ?

I will agree on the stubborness issue, though. We are all certainly stubborn.

BroRog
Oct 25th 2008, 11:55 PM
But the problem is that there are really a lot of verses in the bible which are problematic because they sound as if you don't struggle with sin anymore when you're a christian because your old man is dead and you've put the flesh to death and so on. These things are simply written there but it does not say HOW.

It's like this. The verses that tell us to stop sinning are like the encouraging words my dad used to give me when we played darts. "Keep your eye on the target. Keep your hand steady. Throw with a slight arc. Keep your shoulders parallel with the wall. Put all distraction out of your mind. Focus on the task. Keep trying and don't give up." The fact is, unless I was playing darts in the first place, none of these commands would hold my interest.

The man sitting at the bar could care less. He just sat there sipping his suds. He's not even in the game. Hitting a target with a dart didn't interest him in the least.

Though I hardly ever hit the bullseye, my dad did, which taught me that it was at least possible. The fact that I missed the center of the target, means I had room for improvement and if I practiced as long as my father did, I might hit the target more often.

How many times did the guy at the bar hit the target? Never. He wasn't even trying. Occasionally, he might glance over to watch us for its entertainment value. But otherwise he didn't give it a second thought.

When it comes to being righteous, some of us are in the game and try to get it right as often as possible. And though we fail sometimes, we remain interested, and we hear our Apostles' encouragement, exhorting us to keep on trying, don't give up, etc.

Others aren't even in the game.

JesusMySavior
Oct 26th 2008, 01:17 AM
I'm a christian, I struggle with sin, I pray, I read God's word, the Holy Spirit convicts my heart, I can't say the Holy Spirit is in me, but I know I'm a christian who struggles with sin and I know through the Grace of God and the priceless gift of Jesus Christ, my sins are forgiven.

kkeller, if I may offer some words of encouragement, if you are convicted by the Holy Spirit in your heart, you have Him. That means He's in you.

Sin will always be a struggle but it's ultimately a choice between the sin and our Savior. Left on our own we will always choose sin; but when we let God help us and let Him know our innermost being, He changes our heart and sin tastes like wormwood (bitterness) in our mouths.

If there's anything you would like to talk about (I've struggled with almost everything, believe me) please send me a private message (pm) and we'll talk.

Be blessed in our Lord Jesus.

holyrokker
Oct 26th 2008, 01:20 AM
Do you feel then that you are capable of living a sinless life? That your righteousness will be enough without Christ?


Since we are dealing with a hypothetical idea here: Would someone living a sinless life somehow bring dishonor to Christ?

Wouldn't saying "I don't need Christ" in and of itself be extremely prideful?

Doesn't Christ WANT us to be free from sin?
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. (1 John 2:1)

chad
Oct 26th 2008, 01:39 AM
The Lords prayer (Mat 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4) teaches us to ask for forgiveness for our sins.

(Luke 11:2-4 KJV) And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in Heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

I guess the question I have, is how often are we meant to say the Lords prayer.

If we believe that our sins are forgiven once and for all (past, present and future) why does it say in the Lords prayer to ask for forgiveness of sins, unless we are meant to say the lords prayer only once?


Chad :rolleyes:

Butch5
Oct 26th 2008, 01:49 AM
The Lords prayer (Mat 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4) teaches is to ask for forgiveness for our sins.

(Luke 11:2-4 KJV) And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in Heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

I guess the question I have, is how often are we meant to say the Lords prayer.

If we believe that our sins are forgiven once and for all (past, present and future) why does it say in the Lords prayer to ask for forgiveness of sins, unless we are meant to say the lords prayer only once?


Chad :rolleyes:

Hi Chad,

When a person is saved their past sins are forgiven. Future sins are not pre-forgiven,


Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

JesusMySavior
Oct 26th 2008, 01:58 AM
It's like this. The verses that tell us to stop sinning are like the encouraging words my dad used to give me when we played darts. "Keep your eye on the target. Keep your hand steady. Throw with a slight arc. Keep your shoulders parallel with the wall. Put all distraction out of your mind. Focus on the task. Keep trying and don't give up." The fact is, unless I was playing darts in the first place, none of these commands would hold my interest.

The man sitting at the bar could care less. He just sat there sipping his suds. He's not even in the game. Hitting a target with a dart didn't interest him in the least.

Though I hardly ever hit the bullseye, my dad did, which taught me that it was at least possible. The fact that I missed the center of the target, means I had room for improvement and if I practiced as long as my father did, I might hit the target more often.

How many times did the guy at the bar hit the target? Never. He wasn't even trying. Occasionally, he might glance over to watch us for its entertainment value. But otherwise he didn't give it a second thought.

When it comes to being righteous, some of us are in the game and try to get it right as often as possible. And though we fail sometimes, we remain interested, and we hear our Apostles' encouragement, exhorting us to keep on trying, don't give up, etc.

Others aren't even in the game.

This post was very encouraging to me. Thank you so much.

sheina maidle
Oct 26th 2008, 02:29 AM
THE BELIEVER'S RICHES IN CHRIST FROM A TO Z

Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6 (vr:721D))
Born of God (1 John 5:1 (vr:77A2))
Crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20 (vr:71AE))
Delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13 (vr:7327))
Enriched in everything in Him (1 Corinthians 1:5 (vr:6ED1))
Forgiven for Christ's sake (Ephesians 4:32 (vr:7279))
Grounded in love (Ephesians 3:17 (vr:7255))
Hid with Christ (Colossians 3:3 (vr:7351))
Instructed in the way of the Lord (Acts 18:25 (vr:6BBF))
Justified by His grace (Titus 3:7 (vr:74EB))
Kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5 (vr:76AC))
Led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14 (vr:6DE3))
Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14 (vr:6DE3))
Nourished in the words of faith (1 Timothy 4:6 (vr:743A))
Ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48 (vr:6B13))
Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14 (vr:75C4))
Quickened together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5 (vr:7233))
Redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13 (vr:71BC))
Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13 (vr:7224))
Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13 (vr:7327))
Unreproveable in His sight (Colossians 1:22 (vr:7330))
Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57 (vr:7068))
Washed from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1:5 (vr:77EF))
Yearned over by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26 (vr:6DEF))
Zealous of good works (Titus 2:14 (vr:74E3))

chad
Oct 26th 2008, 03:40 AM
Hi Butch5,

I have always wondered about the teaching of sins being forgiven once and for all (past, present and future) becuase I know of some pastors and bible teachers that teach this.

It puts you in a funny position where you believe differently than a pastor or bible teacher, becuase arn't they meant to be the teachers of the word of god?


Chad :confused

ShardikSon
Oct 26th 2008, 03:52 AM
Hi Butch5,

I have always wondered about the teaching of sins being forgiven once and for all (past, present and future) becuase I know of some pastors and bible teachers that teach this.

It puts you in a funny position where you believe differently than a pastor or bible teacher, becuase arn't they meant to be the teachers of the word of god?


Chad :confused

They are meant to be, but even the best can be incorrect, sometimes.
All humans are fallible.

BroRog
Oct 26th 2008, 04:26 AM
Hi Chad,

When a person is saved their past sins are forgiven. Future sins are not pre-forgiven,


Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Come on Butch. :) When Paul penned those words all of our sins were future.

holyrokker
Oct 26th 2008, 04:38 AM
The real question is about the nature of faith. Is faith a one-time event that secures our eternal destiny, or is faith part of our daily life that is reflected in our relationship with Christ.

Yes, Christ died 2,000 years ago. But His death covers those who place their trust in Him.

Where there is no faith, there is no forgiveness.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 27th 2008, 08:21 PM
Hi Chad,

When a person is saved their past sins are forgiven. Future sins are not pre-forgiven,


Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

So if the remission of sins through the blood, are for past sins only, then what of any present and future sins?

If Jesus Christ shed His blood and died only for our past sins, then how shall we have forgiveness of any present and/or future sins, if there is no more remission?

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

ShardikSon
Oct 28th 2008, 02:50 AM
Your sins were forgive when you repented of your ways and accept the gift of salvation.

What happens afterward is between you and The Christ on the day you stand before Him.

Kahtar
Oct 28th 2008, 03:51 AM
So if the remission of sins through the blood, are for past sins only, then what of any present and future sins?

If Jesus Christ shed His blood and died only for our past sins, then how shall we have forgiveness of any present and/or future sins, if there is no more remission?

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Think about that a bit. If it were true, then there will be very few if any people in heaven. We all continue to sin after we are saved, even those who think or say they don't (they lie and the truth is not in them, according to scripture).
It would also mean that the blood of Christ is not sufficient.

But, praise God, THAT is the good news! It is sufficient, and in spite of the fact that we all sin and none are worthy of anthing more than eternal damnation, by His grace, and His grace alone, are we saved, through faith in His death in our place. He has already paid the cost. We are now free to live a pleasing lifestyle before Him without fear of impending doom, even when we fail.

Noah is a good example. He was saved, by God's grace, and brought safely to the other side of the water, sealed safely in the ark. On the other side, he, and his family began their new life in a new earth. They were 'raised up in newness of life'.

They had seen God's judgment upon sin. They knew the horrors of the old world, their old life. They knew God's saving grace. They praised Him and offered sacrifice. God blessed them, and entered into covenant with them.In spite of all of that, Noah's next act was to get drunk and be found naked!

Talk about a failure! Yet, knowing what Noah would do, how he would fail, God still saved him and blessed him. Why? Because His grace is sufficient!

All of that applies to your life today. You live in a sinful world, your own life is one of abject corruption and sin and failure. Yet, God has sealed you safely into Christ, where you are set free from God's wrath and sentence of death. You are a new creature in Christ, raised up in newness of life, and you now enjoy life on the other side, where sin and corruption has been washed away, and you are free to worship and praise a Holy God full of unmeritted grace, and you have entered into covenant with Him.

In spite of all that, you still sin, you still fail, and God knew, and knows, what things you have done and will do yet. But He saved you anyway! Why? Because His grace is sufficient!

Partaker of Christ
Oct 28th 2008, 01:12 PM
Think about that a bit. If it were true, then there will be very few if any people in heaven. We all continue to sin after we are saved, even those who think or say they don't (they lie and the truth is not in them, according to scripture).
It would also mean that the blood of Christ is not sufficient.

But, praise God, THAT is the good news! It is sufficient, and in spite of the fact that we all sin and none are worthy of anthing more than eternal damnation, by His grace, and His grace alone, are we saved, through faith in His death in our place. He has already paid the cost. We are now free to live a pleasing lifestyle before Him without fear of impending doom, even when we fail.

Noah is a good example. He was saved, by God's grace, and brought safely to the other side of the water, sealed safely in the ark. On the other side, he, and his family began their new life in a new earth. They were 'raised up in newness of life'.

They had seen God's judgment upon sin. They knew the horrors of the old world, their old life. They knew God's saving grace. They praised Him and offered sacrifice. God blessed them, and entered into covenant with them.In spite of all of that, Noah's next act was to get drunk and be found naked!

Talk about a failure! Yet, knowing what Noah would do, how he would fail, God still saved him and blessed him. Why? Because His grace is sufficient!

All of that applies to your life today. You live in a sinful world, your own life is one of abject corruption and sin and failure. Yet, God has sealed you safely into Christ, where you are set free from God's wrath and sentence of death. You are a new creature in Christ, raised up in newness of life, and you now enjoy life on the other side, where sin and corruption has been washed away, and you are free to worship and praise a Holy God full of unmeritted grace, and you have entered into covenant with Him.

In spite of all that, you still sin, you still fail, and God knew, and knows, what things you have done and will do yet. But He saved you anyway! Why? Because His grace is sufficient!

Hi Kahtar!

I fully agree with you.

My point was against Butch5 who claimed, that only our past sins are forgiven, and then misuses scripture that speaks of the propitiation by his blood. I beg to differ because, if the propitiation by his blood only covers our past sins, then there can be no remission of present or future sins.
If what Butch5 and others claim is true, then God cannot justify forgiveness for our present or future sins, because without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins.

superwoman8977
Oct 28th 2008, 02:29 PM
Wow! If you can be a Christian and no longer sin then I have some swamp land in Arizona I would like to sell you. In the word it even states that we are all sinners and we all fall short. The only time we will be perfect is when we get to heaven and the more I look at that in scripture the more I think we are still going to have our faults. I know I am a sinner, I have made so many mistakes in my life but the Lord has given me grace. But it has come with a price, He died on that cross and shed his blood for our sins. If He hadnt shed His blood our sins would not have been forgiven and paid for. The Blood is the key but the answer to the OP is no we are still sinners even though we are saved.

Kahtar
Oct 28th 2008, 04:51 PM
Hi Kahtar!

I fully agree with you.

My point was against Butch5 who claimed, that only our past sins are forgiven, and then misuses scripture that speaks of the propitiation by his blood. I beg to differ because, if the propitiation by his blood only covers our past sins, then there can be no remission of present or future sins.
If what Butch5 and others claim is true, then God cannot justify forgiveness for our present or future sins, because without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins.

Understood. My post was really more for him, and others reading this. :)

tt1106
Oct 28th 2008, 05:19 PM
There is no one righteous, not even one. Anybody who says they do not sin, should consult the section on Pride. The Bible talks about one person being the sinless one.
I don't believe they were talking about a human.

drew
Oct 28th 2008, 05:52 PM
Wow! If you can be a Christian and no longer sin then I have some swamp land in Arizona I would like to sell you. In the word it even states that we are all sinners and we all fall short.
Just to be contrary (:D), I am going to at least provisionally argue that Butch5 may be on to something here. I assume you are referring to this text from Romans 3:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Note the past tense. In the spirit of the argument of Butch 5, I suggest that Paul is talking about human beings in their pre-Christian state. We should not simply assume that this a description of the present experience of the Christian. By analogy, in Romans 7, Paul gives an extended treatment of the status of the Jew under the Torah which cannot be taken to be relevant to the life of a believer.

And then someone posted this:


There is no one righteous, not even one.

This is from earlier in Romans 3, where it is manifestly clear that it is the pre-Christian state that is being analyzed:

There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27989c)]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27990d)]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27990e)]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27991f)]

Paul is obviously not talking about Christians here, but rather the state of mankind without redemption. Christians do not do the things listed above, at least not to the degree stated.

So we need to be careful about invoking texts about the sinfulness of man. If the issue on the table is whether Christians sin, we should not use texts that are not even about Christians.

tt1106
Oct 28th 2008, 07:28 PM
Ok...Since I am clearly not a Biblical scholar, I am going to try to tackle this from a layperson perspective.
Peter was a follower of Christ, and he sinned plenty. Jesus called him Satan at one point. He went on to do signs and miracles. So Prior to Jesus' resurrection he was a sinner and after also, I suspect. The early church was full of apostates, which required Paul to continually rebuke them through letters. Paul also talks about many falling away.

Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

While I agree that we are born again and no longer born of the flesh, but born of the spirit, I would still say that there is nobody completely sanctified until death occurs.
Paul states in Romans

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28116A))the body of this (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28116B))death? 25(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28117C))Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28117D))the law of sin.

James 3:2 says
2For we all (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 39:1; 141:3; James 3:2-12&version=49#cen-NASB-30322A))stumble in many ways (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 39:1; 141:3; James 3:2-12&version=49#cen-NASB-30322B))If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 39:1; 141:3; James 3:2-12&version=49#cen-NASB-30322C))perfect man, able to (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ps 39:1; 141:3; James 3:2-12&version=49#cen-NASB-30322D))bridle the whole body as well.

I think the references here, don't point to perfection. I admit in the two years since I got saved, my life has changed tremendously and I can clearly look back and see sanctificaiton at work. The Holy spirit convicts me more and more, but as God fixes one sinful aspect of me and I continue to ask him to speak into another aspect of my life, he doesn't seem to be short on things to correct.
I would not want to be perfect. Lucifer was an Angel and look where his Pride and perfection got him.

drew
Oct 28th 2008, 07:44 PM
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28116A))the body of this (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28116B))death? 25(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28117C))Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:24-25;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28117D))the law of sin.
Hello tt1106:

I do not necessarily disagree with your overall position on this matter - I am not entirely sure where I stand. But, as per other stuff that has been posted, I will claim that this stuff you post from Romans 7 is not about the experience of the Christian, it is about what it was like for Paul to be a Jew under Torah. I will not make that case here in this post, but I can if you wish.

So, again, we need to be careful about choosing our texts. I beleive that Romans 7 has nothing at all to do with the experiences of a redeemed Christian. It is about the state of a non-Christian Jew who is living under the Torah.

Again, I do not necessarily disagree with your overall conclusion in this matter.

MercyChild
Oct 28th 2008, 07:59 PM
That is great to know. Just made the big decision yesterday, and was wondering if I really did allow Jesus in my life, as my thoughts were still the same, and the same feelings arose during the day. The only diffrence was that I took time to make a decision in trying to do the right thing.

tt1106
Oct 28th 2008, 08:01 PM
I understand drew. That is helpful information, and I know that you are right.
I think of being Dead to sin as if you were to tell someone.....You're dead to me. It's as if they never knew you. I picture Paul, bjust as I picture all other Christians, including myself, occassionally trnasgressing, but repenting and becoming better Christians.
Mos of my opinion stated above is from my own perspective. I can't imagine ever telling someone that I no longer sin. I guess my confusion is regarding whether because we are saved, it is in some kind of different category, although, I am not sure if I am explaining it correctly. Anyway, thank you for the explanation.

BroRog
Oct 28th 2008, 11:36 PM
That is great to know. Just made the big decision yesterday, and was wondering if I really did allow Jesus in my life, as my thoughts were still the same, and the same feelings arose during the day. The only diffrence was that I took time to make a decision in trying to do the right thing.

Welcome to the body of Christ. :)

Partaker of Christ
Oct 29th 2008, 12:03 AM
That is great to know. Just made the big decision yesterday, and was wondering if I really did allow Jesus in my life, as my thoughts were still the same, and the same feelings arose during the day. The only diffrence was that I took time to make a decision in trying to do the right thing.

Hi Linda!

Praise God! What great news!!

I prayer that you will be grounded and rooted in the Love of God our Father, in the Grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and in the Fellowship of the Holy Ghost.

Dani H
Oct 29th 2008, 12:05 AM
A regenerated person died to sin. Sin no longer has dominion over us; therefore, we're not to focus on it. If you are rescued from the grip of a despot and tyrant, why would you go back and ask for more abuse? Why would you concern yourself with something that you died to? After the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and our need for the Savior, when we come to Jesus, it's not about sin anymore. It's about growing and abiding in Him. If we worry about sin and make that our focus, we have missed it. It's like trying to figure out the light by looking at the darkness. It's like trying to figure out life by looking at a dead person. Would that we all understood the truth of that.

We are not to abuse grace so that sin abounds; on the contrary, we are to clothe ourselves with Jesus and live in Him and obey His teachings continually, and receive God's grace to do the right thing and draw closer and closer to Him, and obey Him more and more, deeper and deeper, as onward we go. We're going to still stumble, we're going to still err, but it's important that we continue to abide and walk in His ways, and make Jesus our focus, not ourselves and our shortcomings and weaknesses. No person who really focuses on Jesus is going to have much opportunity to sin; we'll be too busy doing what He asks us to do; we'll be too busy learning and growing and doing those works that we were destined to do by God. We'll be too busy living in His holiness and in His presence and will become more and more desirous to cast off anything that is unlike Him, and will be transformed from glory to glory by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 3
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

There are only 24 hours in one day. We can either spend them worrying about sin, struggling with it, fighting against it, and obsessing over it; or we can spend them busying ourselves with focusing on the Lord Jesus. Which would you rather? And, which would be more fruitful? We can either argue about sin, or we can focus on the Lord Jesus and enter into the fullness of His provisions and the reality of Him living within us, and us in Him, and get on with our lives. :)

Butch5
Oct 29th 2008, 02:08 AM
Come on Butch. :) When Paul penned those words all of our sins were future.

Yea? When a person believes their past sins are forgiven. Paul said Christ was made a propitiation for sins that are past. When we believe our past sin are forgiven, the slate is cleared, however, future sins that
we commit are not pre forgiven

BroRog
Oct 29th 2008, 03:18 AM
Yea? When a person believes their past sins are forgiven. Paul said Christ was made a propitiation for sins that are past. When we believe our past sin are forgiven, the slate is cleared, however, future sins that
we commit are not pre forgiven

I think my observation that all of our sins being future with respect to the time of writing should suffice as a challenge to your interpretation. Since all of our sins were future relative to his time of writing, then logically he couldn't be talking about OUR sins at all.

Paul's isn't finished painting history with a broad brush in his efforts to bring us all under sin, and to that end, he has made a general statement with regard to the historical focal point of the cross. At the present time, he says speaking of his own time period, the cross became a public demonstration of both his propitiation and his justice. BEFORE the cross, God delayed the enforcement of his claims against humanity, which their sins provoked. He was willing to forestall the just penalty for sin in order to wait for this historical milestone to take place.

After the cross, where you and I live, the propitiation has already been made, with the clear implication that the cross has settled the issue once and for all.

chad
Oct 29th 2008, 03:40 AM
I was reading Galatians and 1 John last night regarding our sinful nature and forgiveness of sins.

Paul wrote to the Churches in Galatia.

(Gal 6:7-8 NIV) Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.


And in Galatians 6:1 it suggests we need to be restored. Which suggests that we can sin, after repentance.

(Gal 6:1 NIV) Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

We are forgiven if we confess our sins.

In John 1:7-9 it says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and will forgive us our sins.

(1 John 1:7 NIV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. (8) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


To me the above verses suggest that we can sin, even after repentance. But we can be forgiven and restored. But forgiveness comes through reprentance, it is not automatically given.


Chad :rolleyes:

Butch5
Oct 29th 2008, 03:42 AM
I think my observation that all of our sins being future with respect to the time of writing should suffice as a challenge to your interpretation. Since all of our sins were future relative to his time of writing, then logically he couldn't be talking about OUR sins at all.

Paul's isn't finished painting history with a broad brush in his efforts to bring us all under sin, and to that end, he has made a general statement with regard to the historical focal point of the cross. At the present time, he says speaking of his own time period, the cross became a public demonstration of both his propitiation and his justice. BEFORE the cross, God delayed the enforcement of his claims against humanity, which their sins provoked. He was willing to forestall the just penalty for sin in order to wait for this historical milestone to take place.

After the cross, where you and I live, the propitiation has already been made, with the clear implication that the cross has settled the issue once and for all.

Well, just because you think it doesn't mean it is so. How about some Scripture to support your claim?

Paul said that God made Christ a propitiation through faith in his blood for the remission of sin that are past. In verse 22 Paul says it is for all who believe, so, even if Paul only meant all who believe at the time of His writing, it was only for past sins.

The Holy Bible, King James Version

Romans 3:22-22 ( KJV ) 21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Are we saved by the "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ"?

BroRog
Oct 29th 2008, 02:39 PM
Paul said that God made Christ a propitiation through faith in his blood for the remission of sin that are past.

That's just it. He did not say that. Your summary has gotten the order wrong. God was enduring the sins of the past prior to the cross. Paul didn't say that Christ was a propitiation for past sins. Enduring the sins was in the past, not the propitiation for the sins.

Butch5
Oct 30th 2008, 02:18 AM
That's just it. He did not say that. Your summary has gotten the order wrong. God was enduring the sins of the past prior to the cross. Paul didn't say that Christ was a propitiation for past sins. Enduring the sins was in the past, not the propitiation for the sins.

Romans 3:25 ( KJV ) 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Lamplighter
Oct 30th 2008, 08:30 PM
I don't know if this will help, but here goes.

Today some understand the phrase of James "if you offend in one point of the Law, you are guilty of all" to mean that one must keep all of the Law or else the Law is of no use [James 2:10]. Actually James is saying, if you break any part of the Law you have violated the Law as a whole, but that is true of any law, including the speeding laws of our day. What James is addressing in this chapter has to do with having faith in Jesus Christ with sin in one's life [James 2:11]. The problem arises when modern believers fail to realize the Law was not to achieve salvation, but to expose and remove sin from the life of believers.
The popular idea that one can live by faith without any rules, committing sin and calling it liberty or grace, while believing the Jews are under Law, is the old heresy of Antinomianism. The truth is there can be no grace without Law and all who are without the Law of God are under death because they do not recognize their sin, therefore do not qualify for the grace of God [Romans 5:13, 14]. This was not written to the Jews only, but to the Gentile brethren who thought they were living by a different Law Of Liberty [James 2:8-14]. James is saying even the Gentile brethren have to fulfill the Royal Law of Scripture by loving their neighbor as themselves. This is the spirit of the whole Law, that each individual must honor lest they have respect of persons and are judged for breaking the Law of God.
(http://www.haydid.org/spirit4.htm)

Lamplighter
Oct 30th 2008, 08:52 PM
Also, Colossians 2:13 says all transgressions are forgiven through Christ. I think "all" covers past, present, and future.

jes83
Oct 31st 2008, 05:37 PM
The movie and the book, "the DaVinci Code" dealts with modern day Gnostic Christianity! This statement is made to understand the epistle of First John. When John wrote this short letter he did so to combat the false teaching(s) of Gnosticism. They had taught that one could be sinless in the spirit while still sinning in their phyisical body (or the flesh)! So John first wrote toward the beginning of his letter (I John 1:7-10) "(7) But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleaneseth us from all sin. (8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." This John wrote to combat the sinless teaching of this group. But when you go to the third chapter John seems to contradict himsel? But John is not, instead he now attacks the gnostic teaching of physically sinning without care because one spirit was sinless so we read verse 6 of I John 3, "Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." Keep reading down thru verse 12 and look especially at verse 11 the important thing is Love (Agape Love--see John 15:13; I John 3:16-19). In this passage I John3:6-12 we see John is not talking about sinlessness but a believer being righteous. And how is a believer made righteous "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin: that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (Second Corinthians 5:21) Of course the Him here is Jesus Christ, we are only sinless in the Father, Yahweh's eyes when He see us clothed in Jesus Christ (Matthew 22:1-14; Ephesians 6:10-18).