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poochie
Oct 26th 2008, 11:08 AM
Whats your opinion of it?

I own the Crossway Compact edition and the Reformation study Bible. I am not very impressed with the Reformation study Bible and its weak notes and limited tables, charts and maps.

The ESV is a quality translation and my second favorite. Its far more readable than the authorized version, and not as wooden as the NASB. The NIV is more readable and does not subtract from the meaning behind the text, (contrary to what biased people will tell you). Even some of the most intellectual scholars endorse it (DA Carson, Grant Osborne, Millard Erickson, Walter Elwell,etc).

Some people think only that formal equivalent translations are the way to go but I disagree. When confronted 9 times out of 10 they will ignore arguments made from the other side. Carson and Moo explained the advantages behind the Dynamic translations in their book "How to read the Bible for all its worth." Likewise I have a half dozen verses that sound so much better in the dynamic rendering and more readable to the modern contemporary reader that does not subtract from the meaning of the text. Ie Jesus spoke in KIONE Greek and was understood by commoners and did not restrict his teaching to only the intellectual and learnned.

So please give me your thoughts on this ESV Study Bible. I personally use the Zondervan NIV Study Bible for devotional and leisure Bible reading. How does this one compare?

thepenitent
Oct 26th 2008, 07:36 PM
I too was very disappointed with the Reformation study bible. It is very limited in what it offers for the price. Generally, I don't really like "notes" type study bibles. They distract from reading, have small type and no margins. I tend to used other sources, like commentaries, for the background info study Bibles offer. Having said that, the ESV study Bible is very, very good for that type of Bible. Probably the best one volume religious resource I've ever seen.

My copy of "How to read the Bible for all it's Worth" is written by Gordon Fee and Douglass Stuart. Not Carson and Moo. Further, it's possible the academics promote cetain translations so as not to alienate the largest publishers of religious works such as Zondervan. It's not easy getting published and those guys have to eat too. I started out with the NIV as a new Christian and it served it's purpose for that time very well. As I've matured and read many other translations I've noticed how it sacrifices depth of meaning for ease of understanding in many areas. Now I stick with the KJV and ESV for reading and the NASB for intense exegesis.

SemperReformanda
Oct 27th 2008, 01:52 AM
If you are after a good NIV study Bible, in keeping with the tradition of the reformers, check out the NIV Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible.

Absolutely fantastic, and best of all it's single column!

poochie
Oct 27th 2008, 01:58 AM
What an assumption. Those that read the NIV primarily for leisure are not as mature as those that read the ESV/NASB/KJV. You did not state it in those words, but you used the clause "As I've matured." Well your first assumption is nothing but that, as Millard Erickson endorses the translation and his Graduate level systematic theology textbook (some 1500 pages long) was not published by Zondervan and that textbook is used in seminaries accross the US. I challenge anyone to find me a better systematic theology textbook than Ericksons. Also Grant Osbornes Hermeneutical spiral graduate level textbook uses the NIV by default and it was not published by Zondervan.

Those that claim that these authors use the NIV only because its what most evangelicals use is also another huge asumption without any fact but mere bias to substantiate.

Bottom line is this. The NIV does not sacrifice meaning for readability and I challenge anyone to show me such a passage. Dollars to donuts the NIV translators translated correctly while the KJV/NKJV tranlators did not (ie Johanna comma, 1 John 5:7).


John



I too was very disappointed with the Reformation study bible. It is very limited in what it offers for the price. Generally, I don't really like "notes" type study bibles. They distract from reading, have small type and no margins. I tend to used other sources, like commentaries, for the background info study Bibles offer. Having said that, the ESV study Bible is very, very good for that type of Bible. Probably the best one volume religious resource I've ever seen.

My copy of "How to read the Bible for all it's Worth" is written by Gordon Fee and Douglass Stuart. Not Carson and Moo. Further, it's possible the academics promote cetain translations so as not to alienate the largest publishers of religious works such as Zondervan. It's not easy getting published and those guys have to eat too. I started out with the NIV as a new Christian and it served it's purpose for that time very well. As I've matured and read many other translations I've noticed how it sacrifices depth of meaning for ease of understanding in many areas. Now I stick with the KJV and ESV for reading and the NASB for intense exegesis.

poochie
Oct 27th 2008, 02:03 AM
If you are after a good NIV study Bible, in keeping with the tradition of the reformers, check out the NIV Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible.

Absolutely fantastic, and best of all it's single column!

I am in no way shape or form Reformed or predominately Calvinistic.

Reformed have many doctrines backwards.

Amilinnialism
Limited Atonement
Baptism
etc..

poochie
Oct 27th 2008, 02:06 AM
I have looked at the ESV Study Bible and it looks very very nice... Thanks for mentioning that.


I too was very disappointed with the Reformation study bible. It is very limited in what it offers for the price. Generally, I don't really like "notes" type study bibles. They distract from reading, have small type and no margins. I tend to used other sources, like commentaries, for the background info study Bibles offer. Having said that, the ESV study Bible is very, very good for that type of Bible. Probably the best one volume religious resource I've ever seen.

My copy of "How to read the Bible for all it's Worth" is written by Gordon Fee and Douglass Stuart. Not Carson and Moo. Further, it's possible the academics promote cetain translations so as not to alienate the largest publishers of religious works such as Zondervan. It's not easy getting published and those guys have to eat too. I started out with the NIV as a new Christian and it served it's purpose for that time very well. As I've matured and read many other translations I've noticed how it sacrifices depth of meaning for ease of understanding in many areas. Now I stick with the KJV and ESV for reading and the NASB for intense exegesis.

thepenitent
Oct 27th 2008, 02:37 AM
What an assumption. Those that read the NIV primarily for leisure are not as mature as those that read the ESV/NASB/KJV. You did not state it in those words, but you used the clause "As I've matured." Well your first assumption is nothing but that, as Millard Erickson endorses the translation and his Graduate level systematic theology textbook (some 1500 pages long) was not published by Zondervan and that textbook is used in seminaries accross the US. I challenge anyone to find me a better systematic theology textbook than Ericksons. Also Grant Osbornes Hermeneutical spiral graduate level textbook uses the NIV by default and it was not published by Zondervan.

Those that claim that these authors use the NIV only because its what most evangelicals use is also another huge asumption without any fact but mere bias to substantiate.

Bottom line is this. The NIV does not sacrifice meaning for readability and I challenge anyone to show me such a passage. Dollars to donuts the NIV translators translated correctly while the KJV/NKJV tranlators did not (ie Johanna comma, 1 John 5:7).


John

You enjoy putting words in peoples mouths. I was talking about myself only and as I matured Biblically I saw the NIV as using more superficial language. When it comes to theologins I can cite a dozen who feel the same way I do. I would note that in Grant Osborn's recent Commentary on the book of Revelation (Baker Exegetical) he does NOT use the NIV, so he certainlly isn't married to it. Futher I would put up Calvin's "Institutes" and the "Moody handbook of Theology" as much better handbooks of systematic theology than Ericson's. (the point being that it is purely an asthetic, subjective matter of personal opinion)

Examples:

1. Chapter 8 of Romans refers to "the flesh" many times. the NIV translates "the flesh" as "sinful nature". Well yes, sinful nature is being referred to but "the flesh", to me, is a much more expressive term. It brings to mind the physical, carnal, lustful and, human, nature of the concept being communicated.

2. Many times Jesus emphasizes a point by starting a sentence with "Verily, verily" (KJV) or "Truly, truly". The NIV replaces this with "I tell you the truth". Repitition, especially alliterative repitition, is a common structural technique in Jewish writing to emphasize a point. It is a good technique as it viscerally draws ones attention. In the NIV this structure is eliminated and think for the worse, the emphasis is lessened.

These are just a couple of many examples. But, hey, if you like the NIV go for it. I was just speaking for myself and I stand by my comments. Almost any translation is better for one if they read the Bible more because they like it better.

the rookie
Oct 27th 2008, 02:46 AM
Easy there, gentlemen. Let's keep the thread on track and not get personal.

In my opinion, the ESV is a great translation - though it is careful to present to the reader that it was crafted not just from the original text but from the scholarship / viewpoint of its today's finest (reformed) teachers.

Thus I read it at certain points with a semi-wary eye, as certain passages like Romans 9 take on a decidedly reformed perspective at key points.

So I haven't put away my NKJV, but I enjoy the ESV lots, as a semi-Arminian semi-Calvinist-yet-kind-of-neither dude.

thepenitent
Oct 27th 2008, 03:57 PM
Easy there, gentlemen. Let's keep the thread on track and not get personal.



Thank you for the admonishment. You are correct. I was snippy and defensive in my reply to Poochie and for that I apologize to Poochie and the board. Poochie took my post to indicate I thought NIV readers were not mature in the Bible. I did not mean that at all. I was merely relating my personal experience with Bible translations. I know there are millions of Christians who have been saved and transformed by the NIV Bible and that's all you can ask of any translation. It is just not my favorite which is purely a matter of taste.

the rookie
Oct 27th 2008, 04:21 PM
Thank you for the admonishment. You are correct. I was snippy and defensive in my reply to Poochie and for that I apologize to Poochie and the board. Poochie took my post to indicate I thought NIV readers were not mature in the Bible. I did not mean that at all. I was merely relating my personal experience with Bible translations. I know there are millions of Christians who have been saved and transformed by the NIV Bible and that's all you can ask of any translation. It is just not my favorite which is purely a matter of taste.

No problem - and, FYI, I have the same testimony. I loved the NIV for years but found the NKJV more helpful when I started digging into the passages a bit more intensely. There are a few ways that the NIV translates phrases that I find more helpful than other translations, but by and large found that the NKJV was more precise and more "memorizable". The NASB being more precise but clumsy at times (as most know) - but the ESV solves a little of that problem, and so far, I'm happy with it. Even with the Reformed slant on a few passages that I don't agree with. :D

poochie
Oct 27th 2008, 04:39 PM
Apology accepted. It takes a mature man to do what you did and you showed some integrity. For that I apologize for my defensive reply.

I use the NIV for leisure reading, but memorize in the KJV as part of my class requirements, and do read from the NKJV and ESV often as I own 2 copies of both.

I appreciate sincere and true Christians.



Thank you for the admonishment. You are correct. I was snippy and defensive in my reply to Poochie and for that I apologize to Poochie and the board. Poochie took my post to indicate I thought NIV readers were not mature in the Bible. I did not mean that at all. I was merely relating my personal experience with Bible translations. I know there are millions of Christians who have been saved and transformed by the NIV Bible and that's all you can ask of any translation. It is just not my favorite which is purely a matter of taste.

danielh41
Oct 29th 2008, 03:23 PM
I've got an ESV Study Bible on order, and it should arrive on Friday. I've had a Thompson Chain Reference NIV as my main Bible since 1984. I'm sorry to say that I didn't read it nearly as often as I should have. Certain events in life have led me back to a healthy thirst for the Word. I recently bought a gift edition NLT that I am leisurely reading from beginning to end (I'm at the beginning of Deuteronomy now). I also bought a very nice looking thinline ESV Bible to take to church and use during Bible study class (it has a blue Trutone cover with a Celtic cross design). I do have to say that after looking at the KJV, NIV, NLT, and ESV translations, the ESV is my preferred for in-depth study. The ESV Study Bible looks to have the comprehensive study tools that I am looking for. I'll let you know more when I actually have it in hand...

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 11:32 PM
No problem - and, FYI, I have the same testimony. I loved the NIV for years but found the NKJV more helpful when I started digging into the passages a bit more intensely. There are a few ways that the NIV translates phrases that I find more helpful than other translations, but by and large found that the NKJV was more precise and more "memorizable". The NASB being more precise but clumsy at times (as most know) - but the ESV solves a little of that problem, and so far, I'm happy with it. Even with the Reformed slant on a few passages that I don't agree with. :D

Apart from your last sentence (predictable, huh?!?), that's my testimony too!

danielh41
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:16 AM
My ESV Study Bible arrived yesterday, and my first impression of it is extremely favorable. It is big though. I'll be carrying it to church in the morning, so we'll see how I do carrying a Bible that huge around from worship service to Bible study class...