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Saved!
Oct 27th 2008, 10:28 PM
I was raised Pre-Trib and remained so for 36 years. I became Post-Trib 3 years because I had listened to a radio show daily where the host was Post-Trib. His arguments for Post-Trib were convincing.

I did a little research in the scriptures and came to agree with him.

This, of course, wasn't easy...and has caused me a great, great deal of soul wrenching moments. I miss the old days where I felt like this world, with all of it tough moments would come to an abrupt end and I would meet my sisters, brothers and our Savior in the air. I so looked forward to that day.

Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position.

For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood.

Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom.

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)

I am sure there are other examples that have spoken to the hearts of Pre-Tribbers and have convinced them that our Lord intends to remove us from the ugliness of the Great Tribulation.

Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious.

If you are a Pre-Tribber, something convinced you to be so. I'd love to know what it is.

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 12:02 AM
IMO those who refuse the lord now will find a way to convince themselves that there is still no God. There were those who did not believe when confronted with truth all through the bible.
I was brought up in the Baptist church so I was taught pre trib believes. I have begun to study and read the word myself and I am not convinced yet that what I believe was wrong.
1 Thes 5:3 states "While people are saying, peace and safety," destruction will come upon them suddenly as labor pains on a pregnant women, and they will not escape. If we are meant to life through the great tribulation would we really be experiencing peace and safety.(This is but one of many scriptures that I base my believes upon)
I have many reason why based on scripture but the most compelling reason that I believe as I do is because I have been given peace in my belief. I was challenged about 4 months ago about my belief and after that I became really upset that I would be made to life through the tribulation. The spirit calmed my soul and presented me with confirmation of my beliefs. No matter what your stance is there is no need to fear because that is not the spirit we are given. I think we will be surprised how it all comes down. I believe that God has revealed different things to different people but it will end up being a mixture of different things. Gos is not boxed in my our limited capacity to see. I do not like labels as many are fond of. I simply am a believer and I trust that Gods provision however he see fit will be in our best interest and out of his love for his church.

Saved!
Oct 28th 2008, 12:38 AM
1 Thes 5:3 states "While people are saying, peace and safety," destruction will come upon them suddenly as labor pains on a pregnant women, and they will not escape. If we are meant to life through the great tribulation would we really be experiencing peace and safety.(This is but one of many scriptures that I base my believes upon)

OK. I had not thought of this verse. You do have a point. I have never viewed any portion of the Great Tribulation as offering anyone the opportunity to feel peace and safety...

And, by this verse, it would appear that destruction (wrath) immediately follows...and we are to be spared the wrath.

I know, this is just one of many interpretations. But, it does make me think.

Thank you for your response.

quiet dove
Oct 28th 2008, 02:52 AM
I'm still pre trib. Simply to many things I cannot reconcile otherwise. But thats a pretty long post, if you have a particular question I would be happy to try and answer.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:11 AM
I miss the old days where I felt like this world, with all of it tough moments would come to an abrupt end and I would meet my sisters, brothers and our Savior in the air. I so looked forward to that day. You still can. The only difference is that the events of the last seven years before that moment are more clear to you than they are to Pre-Tribbers.
Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position.

For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood.

Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom.

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)

I am sure there are other examples that have spoken to the hearts of Pre-Tribbers and have convinced them that our Lord intends to remove us from the ugliness of the Great Tribulation. This thinking stems from a faulty understanding of Post-Trib. First of all, the Day of the Lord wrath does not begin until after the Sixth Seal and Seventh Trumpet. By the time it begins, the Post-Trib Rapture will have already happened as we seen portrayed in Revelation 14:14-16. So even a Post-Trib Rapture still has believers spared from God’s wrath.

However, regarding the examples you cited of Noah, Lot, Joseph, and the Egyptian plagues, I would cite as examples where God’s people were not spared, Jeremiah, Daniel (who was carted off as an exile), Moses, Joshua, and Caleb (who were all stuck wandering with the other Hebrews in the desert), and finally an unknown number of Israelis who died in the plague of II Samuel 24:15-17. So there really isn’t a consistent pattern that can be clung to, in spite of what Pre-Tribbers would like to think.
Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious. A Pre-Tribber would argue that the world will be so lost that they will choose to not see the truth. That actually plays into Paul’s description of God sending the world “the lie” of 2 Thessalonians 2, so this line of reasoning isn’t really useful for disproving Pre-Trib beyond all doubts.
If you are a Pre-Tribber, something convinced you to be so. I'd love to know what it is.In my case, back when I became a Pre-Tribber, it was simply the only thing I had been exposed to.
IMO those who refuse the lord now will find a way to convince themselves that there is still no God. There were those who did not believe when confronted with truth all through the bible. Very true.
I was brought up in the Baptist church so I was taught pre trib believes. I have begun to study and read the word myself and I am not convinced yet that what I believe was wrong. The most important thing is that you form your own conclusion and do not allow other people’s opinions to dictate for you what to believe. :thumbsup:
1 Thes 5:3 states "While people are saying, peace and safety," destruction will come upon them suddenly as labor pains on a pregnant women, and they will not escape. What this is referring to is based on a correct understanding of the sequence of events in the Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation, the world’s believers will be near the point of total defeat as we see described in Revelation 13 and Daniel 7. In addition, the still-surviving Jews will be holed up in Petra/Bosra, southeast of present-day Israel. The Antichrist will have gathered the world’s armies together at Armageddon, as we see in Revelation 16, and they will be preparing to move down to Petra/Bosra to annihilate the remaining Jews. Since the world will be convinced by this point that the various plagues they’ve been enduring (as we see described in Revelation’s first six trumpets) are the fault of the Jews and Christians, they’ll believe that annihilating us all will be the key to ending the plagues and ushering in the peace and safety the Antichrist had been promising since his rise to power. Since they’ll be on the brink of victory at Armageddon, they’ll be anticipating a great triumph, just as baseball fans in Philadelphia are anticipating a World Series championship as I’m typing this. But at the last instant, the sky will rip apart as we see described in Revelation’s Sixth Seal and the Lord will appear. This will be the moment of the Rapture, and the world will realize what they’re really up against – the Day of the Lord. It will come on them as a total surprise, just like a thief in the night. It will be completely unexpected. THAT’S where the “thief in the night” descriptions come from.

That's also why Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:4, "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief", because the believers of that time will not be surprised at all by the Lord's appearance - they'll have been expecting it.
If we are meant to life through the great tribulation would we really be experiencing peace and safety.(This is but one of many scriptures that I base my believes upon)Believers living during that time will experience none of the peace and safety. But neither will the unbelievers. The unbelievers will simply think they are about to achieve “peace and safety”, but Jesus will spoil their plans.
I have many reason why based on scripture but the most compelling reason that I believe as I do is because I have been given peace in my belief. I was challenged about 4 months ago about my belief and after that I became really upset that I would be made to life through the tribulation.If God can get you though your present life, why can’t He get you though whatever you would have to endure in the Tribulation?
The spirit calmed my soul and presented me with confirmation of my beliefs.That’s ironic, because He has done the same thing for me regarding the Post-Trib Rapture.
No matter what your stance is there is no need to fear because that is not the spirit we are given.I agree with that completely. :thumbsup:
I think we will be surprised how it all comes down. I believe that God has revealed different things to different people but it will end up being a mixture of different things. That is a distinct possibility to a certain extent, but keep in mind that He will still conform to His word 100%. So the Truth is there to be found.
Gos is not boxed in my our limited capacity to see. No, but He does have to conform to what He has said in His own Word. (Note that I am differentiating between what He said in His Word and our various interpretations of it. He is absolutely NOT required to conform to any one person’s interpretation of His Word. Rather it is our responsibility to find the correct interpretation of that Word.)
I do not like labels as many are fond of. I simply am a believer and I trust that Gods provision however he see fit will be in our best interest and out of his love for his church.That’s a good piece of wisdom right there. :yes:

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 03:13 AM
I'm still pre trib. Simply to many things I cannot reconcile otherwise. But thats a pretty long post, if you have a particular question I would be happy to try and answer.Literalist-Luke waiting in the wings to pounce........http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/spy.gif

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gif

Diggindeeper
Oct 28th 2008, 04:15 AM
I was raised Pre-Trib and remained so for 36 years. I became Post-Trib 3 years because I had listened to a radio show daily where the host was Post-Trib. His arguments for Post-Trib were convincing.

I did a little research in the scriptures and came to agree with him.

This, of course, wasn't easy...and has caused me a great, great deal of soul wrenching moments. I miss the old days where I felt like this world, with all of it tough moments would come to an abrupt end and I would meet my sisters, brothers and our Savior in the air. I so looked forward to that day.

Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position.

For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood.

Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom.

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)

I am sure there are other examples that have spoken to the hearts of Pre-Tribbers and have convinced them that our Lord intends to remove us from the ugliness of the Great Tribulation.

Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious.

If you are a Pre-Tribber, something convinced you to be so. I'd love to know what it is.

Hi Saved!
I'd like to address this part of your quote above. (My replies are all in blue. Your statements are in black.) You said, "Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position."

The same examples that you give (quoted below) are the same scriptures that I see as defending the Post trib view!

"For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood."
They were KEPT--while everyone around them, every living thing, was DESTROYED.

"Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom."
Ah, yes. Sodom was the target of God's wrath, and only Lot and his family survived from that wicked, sinful den of iniquity! Lot and his family, again, were kept, while the wicked were destroyed!

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.
Again, here we see the hand of God KEEPING THEM!

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)
Right! They were KEPT by the blood of the lamb! Kept, once again!

Now, about this that you said:
"Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious."

Consider your own examples. Consider, for just a moment.
1- In the example of Noah...what DID happen to those LEFT BEHIND?
I'll tell you. The flood came, and destroyed them all! (Luke 17:26-27)

2- In the example of Lot...what DID happen to those LEFT BEHIND?
The same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:28-30)

Show me where in the Bible anything, ANYTHING is said to prove that those left behind just go on with life as usual. No. they don't. Anyone left behind will be utterly destroyed by the wrath of God.

I promise you that the righteous, those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ will again BE KEPT! Those NOT kept will once again, once and for all time, be destroyed. At his coming. At the brightness of his coming!

Luke 17:24
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Luke 17:30
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 05:44 AM
Hi Saved!
I'd like to address this part of your quote above. (My replies are all in blue. Your statements are in black.) You said, "Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position."

The same examples that you give (quoted below) are the same scriptures that I see as defending the Post trib view!

"For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood."
They were KEPT--while everyone around them, every living thing, was DESTROYED.

"Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom."
Ah, yes. Sodom was the target of God's wrath, and only Lot and his family survived from that wicked, sinful den of iniquity! Lot and his family, again, were kept, while the wicked were destroyed!

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.
Again, here we see the hand of God KEEPING THEM!

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)
Right! They were KEPT by the blood of the lamb! Kept, once again!

Now, about this that you said:
"Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious."

Consider your own examples. Consider, for just a moment.
1- In the example of Noah...what DID happen to those LEFT BEHIND?
I'll tell you. The flood came, and destroyed them all! (Luke 17:26-27)

2- In the example of Lot...what DID happen to those LEFT BEHIND?
The same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:28-30)

Show me where in the Bible anything, ANYTHING is said to prove that those left behind just go on with life as usual. No. they don't. Anyone left behind will be utterly destroyed by the wrath of God.

I promise you that the righteous, those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ will again BE KEPT! Those NOT kept will once again, once and for all time, be destroyed. At his coming. At the brightness of his coming!

Luke 17:24
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Luke 17:30
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Excellent points, well done. :yes:

Kudo Shinichi
Oct 28th 2008, 11:15 AM
Phew...hope less confusion happens here...;)

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 01:51 PM
I am curious why anyone one person would think that they had it figured out and why it would be important for them to have others know their opinions and believe the same way(in regards to End times). I have heard it said that some things are spine issues and others are rib issues. End times events and order are rib issues(meaning know ones knows for sure). It is not important to me that anyone believes as I do(about end times events). The main point is that everyone only has an opinion and yet it is made to seem as truth. You can study the word of God one day and get one thing and the very next day read the same scripture and receive another truth. Does it line up with Gods character? That is what I ask myself as I study the word. Just because someone has an opinion does not then make it truth. It is hard for me to understand why others would expect me to believe there way simply because it is there truth.
God is a personal God and I believe that he will provide me with the truth he would have ME to see.
I guess I am just trying to understand why it is so important that we all believe the same thing here(in regards to end time events). I am deep into the word and have a personal relationship with my savior. He is the only one that will convince me of truth.
If I must live through the tribulation, then God will provide for me as he sees fit(not meaning that I do nothing but I am out loving on the saved and unsaved). It seems that many folks believe that we who might believe something different are not going to be aware of what is happening and be caught of guard. No matter how it plays out, if you are in the word and are studying then God will reveal what needs to be revealed at the time you need it. I do not have to prepare for the worst, I have a savior who has prepared a way for me.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 02:01 PM
1 Thes 5:3 states "While people are saying, peace and safety," destruction will come upon them suddenly as labor pains on a pregnant women, and they will not escape. If we are meant to life through the great tribulation would we really be experiencing peace and safety.(This is but one of many scriptures that I base my believes upon)

OK. I had not thought of this verse. You do have a point. I have never viewed any portion of the Great Tribulation as offering anyone the opportunity to feel peace and safety...

And, by this verse, it would appear that destruction (wrath) immediately follows...and we are to be spared the wrath.

I know, this is just one of many interpretations. But, it does make me think.

Thank you for your response.


This doesn't answer your question completely, but needs to be pointed out for comprehensions sake. The tribulation does NOT last 7 years. The reign of the Antichrist is 7 years but the first 3.5 is peace and prosperity...

Further this verse speaks to the general public not Christians per-se. Thus, in the tribulation that the Antichrist presses against Christians those with the mark are happily eating, buying selling and saying "Peace and safety from the Antichrist oh yeah!" SO that is what is meant when they say peace and safety and then the judgement of God comes down.

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 02:25 PM
I find this interesting that at the top it say PRE TRIBULATION not POST yet all the post tribs must find there way in to explain the text. Is there a reason that post tribs must have there view point recognized?
Remember that you do not have it all figured out and if you think you do I bet you will be surprised. Just my opinion.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 02:52 PM
I am curious why anyone one person would think that they had it figured out and why it would be important for them to have others know their opinions and believe the same way. I have heard it said that some things are spine issues and others are rib issues. End times events and order are rib issues. It is not important to me that anyone believes as I do. The main point is that everyone only has an opinion and yet it is made to seem as truth. You can study the word of God one day and get one thing and the very next day read the same scripture and receive another truth. Does it line up with Gods character? That is what I ask myself as I study the word. Just because someone has an opinion does not then make it truth. It is hard for me to understand why others would expect me to believe there way simply because it is there truth.
God is a personal God and I believe that he will provide me with the truth he would have ME to see.
I guess I am just trying to understand why it is so important that we all believe the same thing here(in regards to end time events). I am deep into the word and have a personal relationship with my savior. He is the only one that will convince me of truth.
If I must live through the tribulation, then God will provide for me as he sees fit. It seems that many folks believe that we who might believe something different are not going to be aware of what is happening and be caught of guard. No matter how it plays out, if you are in the word and are studying then God will reveal what needs to be revealed at the time you need it. I do not have to prepare for the worst, I have a savior who has prepared a way for me.

First, I am ASTOUNDED that your opening line says what it says. Absolutely astounded. Please reconsider it. The implications are astonishing to the utmost.

Second: you said:"End times events and order are rib issues. It is not important to me that anyone believes as I do." Another astonishing statement. Do you not believe in witnessing the truth of Christ to others? so that those who hold a wacky faith be corrected? so that they may be saved? so that if you are wrong on a particular issue (We all are wrong somewhere) they may be able to sharpen you, iron against iron?
Why are you even on these boards if what you said is truly what you believe? You can't believe it because you are here, therefore I must believe you are frustrated by the dialog... this is good. It means either you want to learn and find it hard to, or you dont want to learn and the spirit is urging you.... dont stop now friend keep pushing through!

You said:"I guess I am just trying to understand why it is so important that we all believe the same thing here(in regards to end time events)." I dont think anyone is trying to convince you to hold a position you don't understand or agree with. I do think it VERY important that we sharpen one another. Lazy thinking may be comfortable, but it is also inaccurate and leads to trouble. Avoiding spiritual trouble is the purpose of these boards. By discussion and discourse we all move towards truth. We may individually take different paths as we move but ultimately we all want to be more accurate in our thinking.

You said: "If I must live through the tribulation, then God will provide for me as he sees fit." Hmm, May I politely suggest that such a philosophy is dangerous. (If you intend to sit down on a log and see what happens). God has always instructed us to be busy, to work, to think, to strive honestly for each other and our selves. If we are to go through the trib, then we might want to consider the holocaust, those who said, "God will provide" ended up in concentration camps and etc... Other said "No, God has given me feet, hands and a mind", some of them still died but many who took to their wits as God had granted to them, took to the hills and avoided the desperate times.

I urge you Jen not to be frustrated by these boards but to tough it out till you have hundreds more threads to your account, as you spend time in here you will understand more of what we are about and I promise, you will be a much smarter christian than if you never came among us.

God bless
DF1

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 03:10 PM
I was raised Pre-Trib and remained so for 36 years. I became Post-Trib 3 years because I had listened to a radio show daily where the host was Post-Trib. His arguments for Post-Trib were convincing.

I did a little research in the scriptures and came to agree with him.

This, of course, wasn't easy...and has caused me a great, great deal of soul wrenching moments. I miss the old days where I felt like this world, with all of it tough moments would come to an abrupt end and I would meet my sisters, brothers and our Savior in the air. I so looked forward to that day.

Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position.

For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood.

Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom.

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)

I am sure there are other examples that have spoken to the hearts of Pre-Tribbers and have convinced them that our Lord intends to remove us from the ugliness of the Great Tribulation.

Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious.

If you are a Pre-Tribber, something convinced you to be so. I'd love to know what it is.


we are not meant for God's wrath. There are many verses that state this, if you want me to, I can list them. :)
as for your last question, the answer is no, they wouldn't. God has already given evidence of His existence, His omnipotence, His omnicence, his omnipresence, etc, and look how many people still deny Him. There is also that big lie to contend with, whatever it may be. Their eyes are blinded by the devil. Look at all the people that actually knew Jesus. They saw Him, touched Him, walked with Him, yet still denied Him. If that doesn't convince every human, nothing is going to. I would have to say the number one reason I stay pre trib is because I trust God and the promises He made. He said that we were not meant for wrath, and I believe Him. If being deceived and damning our soul to hell isn't wrath, I don't know what is. If going through the tribulation, which is for Israel and those who denied God isn't wrath, I don't know what is.
You know, Jesus died on the cross for us. He suffered the wrath of almighty God because no human ever could. To me and the way I understand it, if we are left here to go through the trib, it is us trying to save ourselves by some kind of suffering....but when is it enough? The answer is, there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Jesus has already completed that work. he has not judged the ungodly of this age yet, though, and I believe that is what the tribulation is. His judgement on the ungodly of this age who have denied Him. There is not one verse of scripture that tells me I am going to go through the great tribulation, but many to refute that idea. God Bless.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 03:15 PM
This doesn't answer your question completely, but needs to be pointed out for comprehensions sake. The tribulation does NOT last 7 years. The reign of the Antichrist is 7 years but the first 3.5 is peace and prosperity...



False peace. Let's always try to remember that. As I have stated recently in a couple of posts, wouldn't being deceived and your soul damned to hell...be wrath? The first three and a half years of the tribulation will be just as much wrath, just in a different way.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 03:32 PM
False peace. Let's always try to remember that. As I have stated recently in a couple of posts, wouldn't being deceived and your soul damned to hell...be wrath? The first three and a half years of the tribulation will be just as much wrath, just in a different way.
Good point! It'll look great, but it will damn a lot of people to hell!!!!!

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 03:42 PM
Good point! It'll look great, but it will damn a lot of people to hell!!!!!


yes, exactly...

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 03:59 PM
First, I am ASTOUNDED that your opening line says what it says. Absolutely astounded. Please reconsider it. The implications are astonishing to the utmost.

Second: you said:"End times events and order are rib issues. It is not important to me that anyone believes as I do." Another astonishing statement. Do you not believe in witnessing the truth of Christ to others? so that those who hold a wacky faith be corrected? so that they may be saved? so that if you are wrong on a particular issue (We all are wrong somewhere) they may be able to sharpen you, iron against iron?
Why are you even on these boards if what you said is truly what you believe? You can't believe it because you are here, therefore I must believe you are frustrated by the dialog... this is good. It means either you want to learn and find it hard to, or you dont want to learn and the spirit is urging you.... dont stop now friend keep pushing through!

You said:"I guess I am just trying to understand why it is so important that we all believe the same thing here(in regards to end time events)." I dont think anyone is trying to convince you to hold a position you don't understand or agree with. I do think it VERY important that we sharpen one another. Lazy thinking may be comfortable, but it is also inaccurate and leads to trouble. Avoiding spiritual trouble is the purpose of these boards. By discussion and discourse we all move towards truth. We may individually take different paths as we move but ultimately we all want to be more accurate in our thinking.

You said: "If I must live through the tribulation, then God will provide for me as he sees fit." Hmm, May I politely suggest that such a philosophy is dangerous. (If you intend to sit down on a log and see what happens). God has always instructed us to be busy, to work, to think, to strive honestly for each other and our selves. If we are to go through the trib, then we might want to consider the holocaust, those who said, "God will provide" ended up in concentration camps and etc... Other said "No, God has given me feet, hands and a mind", some of them still died but many who took to their wits as God had granted to them, took to the hills and avoided the desperate times.

I urge you Jen not to be frustrated by these boards but to tough it out till you have hundreds more threads to your account, as you spend time in here you will understand more of what we are about and I promise, you will be a much smarter christian than if you never came among us.

God bless
DF1
Actually I will not do you the service of debating with you. That is the problem to me. Instead of debating my opinion I will love Jesus and love others.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 04:04 PM
Actually I will not do you the service of debating with you. That is the problem to me. Instead of debating my opinion I will love Jesus and love others.
That is "prozac thinking".

I did not want to debate you to hurt your feelings. I did not want to hurt you in anyway at all. My point is that not discussing anything and simply loving people and leaving them in their ignorance and unsaved ways is wrong.

WHY are you on these boards if you feel this way.

crush
Oct 28th 2008, 04:11 PM
I would have to say the number one reason I stay pre trib is because I trust God and the promises He made. He said that we were not meant for wrath, and I believe Him. If being deceived and damning our soul to hell isn't wrath, I don't know what is. If going through the tribulation, which is for Israel and those who denied God isn't wrath, I don't know what is.
I believe that you are under a mistaken impression that God will deceive his own during the GT. While I'm sure many pew warmers that comfortably profess to be Christians today will be deceived by the Great Lie, those that God chose from the beginning will never be decieved. The false Christians, who fall away, will be targets of God's wrath, as it should be.

The bible is very clear that it is not possible to deceive God's elect.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is also clear that ONLY those that were never written in the "book of life" will worship the Beast.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

So, if during the Great Tribulation you find yourself worshiping the Beast, this only means that you were never a Christian at all, even if you professed to be before the GT.

If during the GT you find yourself not worshiping the Beast, you will probably be killed by him long before God's wrath is poured out on the world. God does not begin his wrath until the last martyr is killed.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

In otherwords, how long before you begin to punish those that killed us? The answer.....

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

God's wrath does not begin until the last martyr is killed, and their soul is brought to heaven. And actually, the reason for God's wrath is to avenge those that were killed by the Beast.

For God's servants that still remain alive on the Earth, the Angels carrying out the wrath of God are instructed to hurt only those who have the "mark of the beast"

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 04:14 PM
First you say.....

I am curious why anyone one person would think that they had it figured out and why it would be important for them to have others know their opinions and believe the same way. I have heard it said that some things are spine issues and others are rib issues. End times events and order are rib issues. It is not important to me that anyone believes as I do. The main point is that everyone only has an opinion and yet it is made to seem as truth. You can study the word of God one day and get one thing and the very next day read the same scripture and receive another truth. Does it line up with Gods character? That is what I ask myself as I study the word. Just because someone has an opinion does not then make it truth. It is hard for me to understand why others would expect me to believe there way simply because it is there truth.........
Then you say...

I find this interesting that at the top it say PRE TRIBULATION not POST yet all the post tribs must find there way in to explain the text. Is there a reason that post tribs must have there view point recognized?
Remember that you do not have it all figured out and if you think you do I bet you will be surprised. Just my opinion.

Make up your mind please

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 04:25 PM
I am curious why anyone one person would think that they had it figured out and why it would be important for them to have others know their opinions and believe the same way. I have heard it said that some things are spine issues and others are rib issues. End times events and order are rib issues. It is not important to me that anyone believes as I do. The main point is that everyone only has an opinion and yet it is made to seem as truth. You can study the word of God one day and get one thing and the very next day read the same scripture and receive another truth. Does it line up with Gods character? That is what I ask myself as I study the word. Just because someone has an opinion does not then make it truth. It is hard for me to understand why others would expect me to believe there way simply because it is there truth.
God is a personal God and I believe that he will provide me with the truth he would have ME to see.
I guess I am just trying to understand why it is so important that we all believe the same thing here(in regards to end time events). I am deep into the word and have a personal relationship with my savior. He is the only one that will convince me of truth.
If I must live through the tribulation, then God will provide for me as he sees fit. It seems that many folks believe that we who might believe something different are not going to be aware of what is happening and be caught of guard. No matter how it plays out, if you are in the word and are studying then God will reveal what needs to be revealed at the time you need it. I do not have to prepare for the worst, I have a savior who has prepared a way for me.Hi Jen, not trying to overpower you or anything, just to re-iterate a couple of things:
The most important thing is that you form your own conclusion and do not allow other people’s opinions to dictate for you what to believe. :thumbsup: He will still conform to His word 100%. So the Truth is there to be found. (Note that I am differentiating between what He said in His Word and our various interpretations of it. He is absolutely NOT required to conform to any one person’s interpretation of His Word. Rather it is our responsibility to find the correct interpretation of that Word.)I am sorry if my post came across like I was hitting you over the head with my opinion. That was certainly not the intent. I and a number of other people here will share our opinions pretty brazenly (I even call myself the "Opinion Meister" if you'll notice in the upper left of this post box.), but the vast majority of people here will never forget to respect the right of others to hold to a different interpretation. And you certainly do have the right to a different opinion.

One reason that Post-Tribbers get kind of aggressive about our stance is because we are concerned about other believers. If our position is correct (and notice that I said "if" :D ) then I personally am concerned that a great number of believers around the world will be caught by surprise when the Tribulation starts if they find themselves in it instead of having been Raptured out. For people like you who are aware of other possible timings of the Rapture, it will most likely not be a problem, because you would simply recognize that the Rapture has a different timing.

What I am concerned about is people who don't realize that and who might consequently conclude that it's not just the Rapture's timing that needs to be re-examined, but Christianity as a whole. So a lot of us simply try to get the word out as much as we can to raise awareness.

Does this mean that a Pre-Tribber is less prepared to face the Tribulation? Certainly not. There are a number of Pre-Tribbers I know, including some right here on this board, who are fully aware of other possible scenarios regarding the Rapture and who will not be taken by surprise if they find themselves in the Tribulation.

Now, about find the right interpretation: If it's not that big a deal to you, that's fine. You have the right to set your own priorities in your Bible studies. For me, prophecy is like the biggest jigsaw puzzle in the history of the world. I recognize I'll never solve the whole thing on my own, but isn't it OK if I get as close as I can? I mean, as I am able to fit more pieces into the puzzle and see the world around me moving closer and closer to those events taking place and becoming real life instead of just a story in the Bible, I find that pretty exhilarating, not just because it confirms my faith in real life, but also because it reminds me that it's not going to be that long before the 2nd Coming - and that's a day I know we're all looking forward to. :)

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 04:29 PM
[
quote=crush;1843939]I believe that you are under a mistaken impression that God will deceive his own during the GT. While I'm sure many pew warmers that comfortably profess to be Christians today will be deceived by the Great Lie, those that God chose from the beginning will never be decieved. The false Christians, who fall away, will be targets of God's wrath, as it should be.

You are mistaken about what I believe. Not sure how you came to that idea, but I am sure it can be cleared up...oh wait, I think I know, was it because I said that damning our souls to hell is wrath? I didn't mean Christians, it was just a general usage. Sorry about that.

crush
Oct 28th 2008, 04:38 PM
I would have to say the number one reason I stay pre trib is because I trust God and the promises He made. He said that we were not meant for wrath, and I believe Him. If being deceived and damning our soul to hell isn't wrath, I don't know what is.

You are suggesting here, I believe, that if God were to not "rapture" his people before the GT, they would be deceived and their souls damned to hell. If I'm making the wrong assumption here, would you please clarify?

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 04:47 PM
That is "prozac thinking".

I did not want to debate you to hurt your feelings. I did not want to hurt you in anyway at all. My point is that not discussing anything and simply loving people and leaving them in their ignorance and unsaved ways is wrong.

WHY are you on these boards if you feel this way.
I have been on this board for over 4 months just reading and trying to see others point of views but I am always discouraged by the way people seem to take a superior view of their way of thinking. I am in a bible study (Revelations) with a group of about 12 people who all have different views but we do not try and make each other feel belittled and wrong. We debate but with we agree to disagree kind of thing. On here is seems that the post tribs are always giving the pre tribs a hard time. This is from my perspective of being a onlooker these past few months. It is hard for you to make judgment against me from a post..I am not offended in any way. I just see no reason to justify what I believe after my post is picked apart and the heart of what I was saying was not addressed. Of course, I do not sit by and do nothing . I am forcefully advancing the Kingdom every day. Not only in my own life but in others that i come into contact with. I am BOLD for Christ. I share my beliefs and I share my philosophy on End times. I am not an Idle Christian yet your post seemed to reflect that I am. It is not that I am living in "prozac world" I just do not see the point of typing up beliefs to get them blasted. I simply came to share with the poster of the post what I believe based on the question she proposed. I hope that you have a very blessed day!

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 04:49 PM
Hi Jen, not trying to overpower you or anything, just to re-iterate a couple of things:I am sorry if my post came across like I was hitting you over the head with my opinion. That was certainly not the intent. I and a number of other people here will share our opinions pretty brazenly (I even call myself the "Opinion Meister" if you'll notice in the upper left of this post box.), but the vast majority of people here will never forget to respect the right of others to hold to a different interpretation. And you certainly do have the right to a different opinion.

One reason that Post-Tribbers get kind of aggressive about our stance is because we are concerned about other believers. If our position is correct (and notice that I said "if" :D ) then I personally am concerned that a great number of believers around the world will be caught by surprise when the Tribulation starts if they find themselves in it instead of having been Raptured out. For people like you who are aware of other possible timings of the Rapture, it will most likely not be a problem, because you would simply recognize that the Rapture has a different timing.

What I am concerned about is people who don't realize that and who might consequently conclude that it's not just the Rapture's timing that needs to be re-examined, but Christianity as a whole. So a lot of us simply try to get the word out as much as we can to raise awareness.

Does this mean that a Pre-Tribber is less prepared to face the Tribulation? Certainly not. There are a number of Pre-Tribbers I know, including some right here on this board, who are fully aware of other possible scenarios regarding the Rapture and who will not be taken by surprise if they find themselves in the Tribulation.

Now, about find the right interpretation: If it's not that big a deal to you, that's fine. You have the right to set your own priorities in your Bible studies. For me, prophecy is like the biggest jigsaw puzzle in the history of the world. I recognize I'll never solve the whole thing on my own, but isn't it OK if I get as close as I can? I mean, as I am able to fit more pieces into the puzzle and see the world around me moving closer and closer to those events taking place and becoming real life instead of just a story in the Bible, I find that pretty exhilarating, not just because it confirms my faith in real life, but also because it reminds me that it's not going to be that long before the 2nd Coming - and that's a day I know we're all looking forward to. :)
No Luke I appreciated your post! You are very knowledgeable and i appreciate that.

bennie
Oct 28th 2008, 04:54 PM
First, I am ASTOUNDED that your opening line says what it says. Absolutely astounded. Please reconsider it. The implications are astonishing to the utmost.

Second: you said:"End times events and order are rib issues. It is not important to me that anyone believes as I do." Another astonishing statement. Do you not believe in witnessing the truth of Christ to others? so that those who hold a wacky faith be corrected? so that they may be saved? so that if you are wrong on a particular issue (We all are wrong somewhere) they may be able to sharpen you, iron against iron?
Why are you even on these boards if what you said is truly what you believe? You can't believe it because you are here, therefore I must believe you are frustrated by the dialog... this is good. It means either you want to learn and find it hard to, or you dont want to learn and the spirit is urging you.... dont stop now friend keep pushing through!

You said:"I guess I am just trying to understand why it is so important that we all believe the same thing here(in regards to end time events)." I dont think anyone is trying to convince you to hold a position you don't understand or agree with. I do think it VERY important that we sharpen one another. Lazy thinking may be comfortable, but it is also inaccurate and leads to trouble. Avoiding spiritual trouble is the purpose of these boards. By discussion and discourse we all move towards truth. We may individually take different paths as we move but ultimately we all want to be more accurate in our thinking.

You said: "If I must live through the tribulation, then God will provide for me as he sees fit." Hmm, May I politely suggest that such a philosophy is dangerous. (If you intend to sit down on a log and see what happens). God has always instructed us to be busy, to work, to think, to strive honestly for each other and our selves. If we are to go through the trib, then we might want to consider the holocaust, those who said, "God will provide" ended up in concentration camps and etc... Other said "No, God has given me feet, hands and a mind", some of them still died but many who took to their wits as God had granted to them, took to the hills and avoided the desperate times.

I urge you Jen not to be frustrated by these boards but to tough it out till you have hundreds more threads to your account, as you spend time in here you will understand more of what we are about and I promise, you will be a much smarter christian than if you never came among us.

God bless
DF1

hi dragonfihgter

i agree what you wrote to jen.
most people i have spoken to says thast knowing what goes on in the end times have nothing to do with there salvation. so they dont have to know. That statemant is sortoff true. BUT, when the time of the end comes, it will have everything too do with there salvation.

I heard a person once said at a seminar: " Gods ways and plans are not simple. So, surface readers need not apply."
That is very true. studying the endtime prophecys is not easy. lots of reading need to go into it. Lots of history need to be read to understand it aswell. Gods perfect foreknowledge is amazing. He told us what is going to happen.
I believe there is alot of very very sincere pre trib people out there. They live there livwe 110% for God almighty.
i am with another poster, i dont know what my "label" is. and i dont care. i believe Jesus will come back right on time. Becuase with God timing is everything. His ways are perfect. we are finite beings that are only schraching the surface of His awsome and amazing ways. But, never stop trying to understand Gods ways.

bennie
p.s. I am a post wrath rapture person. I believe we will be here for Gods redemptive trumpets and the appearance of the AC( I believe this will be lucifer) God will keep His saints save during the 7 bowls aswell.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 05:06 PM
I have been on this board for over 4 months just reading and trying to see others point of views but I am always discouraged by the way people seem to take a superior view of their way of thinking. I am in a bible study (Revelations) with a group of about 12 people who all have different views but we do not try and make each other feel belittled and wrong. We debate but with we agree to disagree kind of thing. On here is seems that the post tribs are always giving the pre tribs a hard time. This is from my perspective of being a onlooker these past few months. It is hard for you to make judgment against me from a post..I am not offended in any way. I just see no reason to justify what I believe after my post is picked apart and the heart of what I was saying was not addressed. Of course, I do not sit by and do nothing . I am forcefully advancing the Kingdom every day. Not only in my own life but in others that i come into contact with. I am BOLD for Christ. I share my beliefs and I share my philosophy on End times. I am not an Idle Christian yet your post seemed to reflect that I am. It is not that I am living in "prozac world" I just do not see the point of typing up beliefs to get them blasted. I simply came to share with the poster of the post what I believe based on the question she proposed. I hope that you have a very blessed day!
I wish you had said that to begin with. It makes much more sense to me now. To respond respectfully... I don't think we bash pre tribbers because I think most of us recognize we could be wrong.

What we do tend to get more vocal about is the ramifications of being wrong... if we are wrong its no big deal. whoosh we are gone! but if pre-trib is wrong... "Uh oh!" doesnt cover it!

I have read the responses of many pre-tribbers who say they may be wrong and then go on to say that even if they are "so what it no big deal!" that is when we get "het up"

I dont want any to be caught off guard. I want to be wrong as postie. But I want everyone to be prepared if the pretrib position is wrong. Do you see why we are the way we are now?

I dont blast your beliefs. I do challenge things I don't understand, or that I think are dismissive. One of the favorite tricks of those who don't really know but hold a position based on social pressure is to dismiss something as unimportant. I call out to those to hopefully get them to realize that their position is unsupported -if all they can do is dismiss the arguement as irrelevant.
You say how much you dislike your posts being picked apart. But in reality you and I both do it.. Because in order to respond we must identify what part of a post we are addressing... the original OP or one of the responses.

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 05:12 PM
hi dragonfihgter

i agree what you wrote to jen.
most people i have spoken to says thast knowing what goes on in the end times have nothing to do with there salvation. so they dont have to know. That statemant is sortoff true. BUT, when the time of the end comes, it will have everything too do with there salvation.

I heard a person once said at a seminar: " Gods ways and plans are not simple. So, surface readers need not apply."
That is very true. studying the endtime prophecys is not easy. lots of reading need to go into it. Lots of history need to be read to understand it aswell. Gods perfect foreknowledge is amazing. He told us what is going to happen.
I believe there is alot of very very sincere pre trib people out there. They live there livwe 110% for God almighty.
i am with another poster, i dont know what my "label" is. and i dont care. i believe Jesus will come back right on time. Becuase with God timing is everything. His ways are perfect. we are finite beings that are only schraching the surface of His awsome and amazing ways. But, never stop trying to understand Gods ways.

bennie
p.s. I am a post wrath rapture person. I believe we will be here for Gods redemptive trumpets and the appearance of the AC( I believe this will be lucifer) God will keep His saints save during the 7 bowls aswell.

The interesting thing is that I am in a in depth Revelation study and it is not that I know nothing or do not study end times prophecy.
I enjoy how everyone assumes that though.
I called it a Rib issue because there are varying beliefs on end times and know one really knows what will happen
Where as spine issues are that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, born of a virgin, rose on the 3rd day. These issues are not debatable but your opinion or anyone else's for that matter in End times is debatable.
I love to study End times prophecy and have always held an interest in it. ever since I was a little girl I have felt I would be here for the End. I am about the only person I know that loves this stuff..Most others are fearful and do not want to talk about it. I have been told I am to interested that I did not need to study Revelations so much but in the bible it says "blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, for the time is near".
I do not think I could feel justified to pass judgment against your personal walk with Christ after reading one post that you had written. I am interested in how that is justified?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 05:24 PM
I think most of us recognize we could be wrong.Speak for yourself, bud. :lol:
What we do tend to get more vocal about is the ramifications of being wrong... if we are wrong its no big deal. whoosh we are gone! but if pre-trib is wrong... "Uh oh!" doesnt cover it!At the same time, we (finger pointing squarely at myself here) need to be careful not to get hateful about it as well.
I have read the responses of many pre-tribbers who say they may be wrong and then go on to say that even if they are "so what it no big deal!" that is when we get "het up"That's a choice on our part, how to respond. Speaking as a professional sales rep, there comes a point where you have to present your information and then if the customer or other poster chooses to not arrive at the same conclusion that you want, you have to just shrug your shoulders and get over it.
I dont want any to be caught off guard. I want to be wrong as postie. But I want everyone to be prepared if the pretrib position is wrong. Do you see why we are the way we are now?Maybe the "way we are" could use a little re-evaluating.
I dont blast your beliefs. I do challenge things I don't understand, or that I think are dismissive. One of the favorite tricks of those who don't really know but hold a position based on social pressure is to dismiss something as unimportant. I call out to those to hopefully get them to realize that their position is unsupported -if all they can do is dismiss the arguement as irrelevant.That can also usually be accomplished by asking some carefully worded questions that force the other person to think things through. If they choose not to, they probably wouldn't have responded positively to the other approach anyway.
You say how much you dislike your posts being picked apart. But in reality you and I both do it.. Because in order to respond we must identify what part of a post we are addressing... the original OP or one of the responses.I imagine Jen is wide open to a vigorous dialogue - she just wants to feel like she is being equally heard along with the other person(s) and not talked down to.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 05:44 PM
You are suggesting here, I believe, that if God were to not "rapture" his people before the GT, they would be deceived and their souls damned to hell. If I'm making the wrong assumption here, would you please clarify?

clarifying....:). That is NOT what I am saying.

Diggindeeper
Oct 28th 2008, 05:47 PM
I offer that what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is NOT the wrath of God, but it is the wrath of Satan AGAINST those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus. One example of this is here:

Revelation 13:2-7
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You see, how can he "make war with the saints and overcome them" if they are raptured away before he comes to power???

Then, there is this:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (Isn't Paul speaking here about the coming of Christ, when we are gathered together unto him, when the dead in Christ arise FIRST and we who are alive and remain are changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye?)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is the WRATH OF SATAN against anyone and anything that "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus."

The WRATH OF GOD is against all ungodly, including those who do this:
Revelation 16:1-2
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

In verse #2, we see the very FIRST people to be under the wrath of God when it is poured out...are those who had the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The saints, by this time, HAVE BEEN taken--KEPT! (See Revelation chapter 14.) But, this is after the time of the "mark of the beast" in Revelation chapter 13!

I see three kinds of wrath:
1- The wrath of Satan
2- The wrath of God
3- The wrath of man (as when kings went against other kingdoms, or nations go against other nations, or indivually, as it was when King Saul went against David to try to eliminate him.)

And I offer that we must consider the question: Is what I'm reading in the Bible the wrath of God? Or the wrath of Satan? Or even the wrath of man? Obviously, God never pours his wrath on those who are his. But who does? Satan, that's who does! With fury, with a vengance he (Satan) makes war against the saints, in an effort to eliminate them from the face of the earth.

But in every example in scripture God KEEPS those who belong to him! God's wrath is poured out all around them, but they are KEPT. Which does not mean Christians will never be killed. That is happening every day, worldwide, even as we type here.

But, there are those who will remain HIS, even if it takes their head from their bodies. They love not their life more than Him.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 05:49 PM
I offer that what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is NOT the wrath of God, but it is the wrath of Satan AGAINST those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus. One example of this is here:

Revelation 13:2-7
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You see, how can he "make war with the saints and overcome them" if they are raptured away before he comes to power???

Then, there is this:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (Isn't Paul speaking here about the coming of Christ, when we are gathered together unto him, when the dead in Christ arise FIRST and we who are alive and remain are changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye?)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is the WRATH OF SATAN against anyone and anything that "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus."

The WRATH OF GOD is against all ungodly, including those who do this:
Revelation 16:1-2
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

In verse #2, we see the very FIRST people to be under the wrath of God when it is poured out...are those who had the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The saints, by this time, HAVE BEEN taken--KEPT! (See Revelation chapter 14.) But, this is after the time of the "mark of the beast" in Revelation chapter 13!

I see three kinds of wrath:
1- The wrath of Satan
2- The wrath of God
3- The wrath of man (as when kings went against other kingdoms, or nations go against other nations, or indivually, as it was when King Saul went against David to try to eliminate him.)

And I offer that we must consider the question: Is what I'm reading in the Bible the wrath of God? Or the wrath of Satan? Or even the wrath of man? Obviously, God never pours his wrath on those who are his. But who does? Satan, that's who does! With fury, with a vengance he (Satan) makes war against the saints, in an effort to eliminate them from the face of the earth.

But in every example in scripture God KEEPS those who belong to him! God's wrath is poured out all around them, but they are KEPT. Which does not mean Christians will never be killed. That is happening every day, worldwide, even as we type here.

But, there are those who will remain HIS, even if it takes their head from their bodies. They love not their life more than Him.

respectfully disagree. :)

Diggindeeper
Oct 28th 2008, 05:51 PM
I know. Many do disagree, especially those in the Pre-tribulation view, but this is the way I see it.

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 05:52 PM
Yep, I know, and that's ok, we don't always have to agree.

Diggindeeper
Oct 28th 2008, 05:59 PM
That is the bottom line! We don't have to agree, we can talk and discuss, and debate...but both you and I are saved by the same blood of the Lamb.

The fact is, someday all who are saved will be taken to be with him. Some of us may die first and be resurrected. The others who are alive and remain will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, to go to be with him.

I think its good that we can all lay out what we believe (and why), and we can agree that we are all, still, awaiting his return with a passion!

jesuslover1968
Oct 28th 2008, 06:01 PM
That is the bottom line! We don't have to agree, we can talk and discuss, and debate...but both you and I are saved by the same blood of the Lamb.

The fact is, someday all who are saved will be taken to be with him. Some of us may die first and be resurrected. The others who are alive and remain will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, to go to be with him.

I think its good that we can all lay out what we believe (and why), and we can agree that we are all, still, awaiting his return with a passion!

Yes, exactly...:)

Forgiven Alaskan
Oct 28th 2008, 06:57 PM
What about Enoch being "translated" before the flood. And Methusala's name meaning "when I die, judgment comes."

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 07:36 PM
What about Enoch being "translated" before the flood. And Methusala's name meaning "when I die, judgment comes."What about it? :)

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 07:47 PM
Speak for yourself, bud. :lol:At the same time, we (finger pointing squarely at myself here) need to be careful not to get hateful about it as well.That's a choice on our part, how to respond. Speaking as a professional sales rep, there comes a point where you have to present your information and then if the customer or other poster chooses to not arrive at the same conclusion that you want, you have to just shrug your shoulders and get over it.Maybe the "way we are" could use a little re-evaluating.That can also usually be accomplished by asking some carefully worded questions that force the other person to think things through. If they choose not to, they probably wouldn't have responded positively to the other approach anyway.I imagine Jen is wide open to a vigorous dialogue - she just wants to feel like she is being equally heard along with the other person(s) and not talked down to.
Points well made!!


I concede to your obvious superiority:agree:
As a professional sales rep, my self, what you said is to me, embarrassingly true!:cry:

Jen I am sorry.:kiss: Please forgive me.

jen74
Oct 28th 2008, 08:26 PM
Forgiven!:kiss:

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 08:33 PM
I offer that what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is NOT the wrath of God, but it is the wrath of Satan AGAINST those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus. One example of this is here:

Revelation 13:2-7
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You see, how can he "make war with the saints and overcome them" if they are raptured away before he comes to power???

Then, there is this:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (Isn't Paul speaking here about the coming of Christ, when we are gathered together unto him, when the dead in Christ arise FIRST and we who are alive and remain are changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye?)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is the WRATH OF SATAN against anyone and anything that "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus."

The WRATH OF GOD is against all ungodly, including those who do this:
Revelation 16:1-2
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

In verse #2, we see the very FIRST people to be under the wrath of God when it is poured out...are those who had the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The saints, by this time, HAVE BEEN taken--KEPT! (See Revelation chapter 14.) But, this is after the time of the "mark of the beast" in Revelation chapter 13!

I see three kinds of wrath:
1- The wrath of Satan
2- The wrath of God
3- The wrath of man (as when kings went against other kingdoms, or nations go against other nations, or indivually, as it was when King Saul went against David to try to eliminate him.)

And I offer that we must consider the question: Is what I'm reading in the Bible the wrath of God? Or the wrath of Satan? Or even the wrath of man? Obviously, God never pours his wrath on those who are his. But who does? Satan, that's who does! With fury, with a vengance he (Satan) makes war against the saints, in an effort to eliminate them from the face of the earth.

But in every example in scripture God KEEPS those who belong to him! God's wrath is poured out all around them, but they are KEPT. Which does not mean Christians will never be killed. That is happening every day, worldwide, even as we type here.

But, there are those who will remain HIS, even if it takes their head from their bodies. They love not their life more than Him. Good post. We are not promised to be kept from tribulation or persecution. Quite the opposite:

2 Timothy 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

John 15
18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

But we are promised to be kept from God's wrath. God's wrath never comes down upon His own. We have many examples of God making sure His people are taken out of the way first before He brings down His wrath. It won't be any different when Christ returns. As in the days of Noah and the days of Lot, those who are alive when Christ returns will be taken out of the way and then Christ will bring God's final wrath down on the wicked (Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:15-21).

awestruckchild
Oct 28th 2008, 08:43 PM
I was raised Pre-Trib and remained so for 36 years. I became Post-Trib 3 years because I had listened to a radio show daily where the host was Post-Trib. His arguments for Post-Trib were convincing.

I did a little research in the scriptures and came to agree with him.

This, of course, wasn't easy...and has caused me a great, great deal of soul wrenching moments. I miss the old days where I felt like this world, with all of it tough moments would come to an abrupt end and I would meet my sisters, brothers and our Savior in the air. I so looked forward to that day.

Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position.

For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood.

Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom.

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)

I am sure there are other examples that have spoken to the hearts of Pre-Tribbers and have convinced them that our Lord intends to remove us from the ugliness of the Great Tribulation.

Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious.

If you are a Pre-Tribber, something convinced you to be so. I'd love to know what it is.

All of the things you mentioned - Noah, Lot, etc., have me convinced that before God displays His wrath, He removes the righteous.

I had not thought about how Israerl was in Egypt but was protected from the wrath of God on Egypt and I marveled that this seems to me to be a shadow of how He will protect them when they flee to the desert in the future too! Quite interesting!

But most of all, what has convinced me is I believe His promise that there is now no condemnation for me and that I will not face His wrath.

I am not certain of anything relating to end times events as some are but I do have great peace concerning it and now, if anything, you have helped my peace even more by pointing out the Jewish people in Egypt at the time of the displaying of Gods' might and wrath.

Either way, I don't have the fear regarding it that others seem to have. I just trust Him.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 09:10 PM
I concede to your obvious superiorityhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gif

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 10:37 PM
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gif
Dude, where did you get that barf face?

I want one!

If you put several together do they barf in each other? Lets find out...http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gifhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gifhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gif
Blast it they don't nest close enough...

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 01:03 AM
Dude, where did you get that barf face?

I want one!

If you put several together do they barf in each other? Lets find out...http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gifhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gifhttp://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/puke.gif
Blast it they don't nest close enough...OK, gonna hafta charge ya :2cents: each for use of my smileys. My attorney will be in touch about the trademark infringement as well. :D

Gods Child
Oct 29th 2008, 03:14 AM
Jesus said in Matthew 24 that he will gather us "Immediately AFTER the tribulation and then Jesus went on to say that it would be as the days of Noah.

If Jesus said we would be gathered AFTER the tribulation, then I don't think it could get any plainer than that as to when we will be raptured.

If Jesus said AFTER, why then do some people say BEFORE?

Mathew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This is why I am post trib...Jesus said AFTER the tribulation...It just can't get any plainer than that as to when the rapture is.




*

Gods Child
Oct 29th 2008, 12:25 PM
One reason that Post-Tribbers get kind of aggressive about our stance is because we are concerned about other believers. If our position is correct (and notice that I said "if" :D ) then I personally am concerned that a great number of believers around the world will be caught by surprise when the Tribulation starts if they find themselves in it instead of having been Raptured out. For people like you who are aware of other possible timings of the Rapture, it will most likely not be a problem, because you would simply recognize that the Rapture has a different timing.



I know I can come across quite aggressive and I really do not mean to.
Like you Luke, I too only speak out because of my concern and my Love for my Brothers & Sisters in Christ.

I see the end times as; the Church will be here until the 7th trumpet, Which, (by my view) places the Church here during the time of the Antichrist. This gives me concern for my Brothers & Sisters in Christ who believed in pre-trib.

As I read some scriptures such as Matthew 24 or 2 Thess 2 there seems to be someone who will be going around saying they are Christ/God to try to deceive the very elect and Jesus tells us to believe it not. I believe that someone to be the antichrist.


Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is my “what if”?

There are a whole lot of people expecting the true Christ to come first.
Lets suppose the Antichrist comes first claiming to be Christ/God.

Could you see how it could fit into the plans of the Antichrist and how he would try to use that for his benefit against those who expected the true Christ first. Would that not be a perfect plan? To get them to expect the true Christ first and then come first claiming to be Christ/God?

Scenario;
The antichrist (false Christ) comes first claiming to be Christ/God
If a person is adamant that the true Christ comes first and instead the false Christ comes first claiming to be Christ could that cause some to be caught of guard, because they expected the true Christ first? That is my GREAT concern...The "What if"...Could it be possible that some might be caught of guard? I don't know if that would even be possible, but if there is even a remote chance of it, then I must speak out in a warning.

So for me; If I seem pushy with my view, It is only because I love you all so much. I do not do it for my benefit, but for the Love of my Brothers & Sisters in Christ.

Please try to remember that, during the times that I seem pushy, I don't try to do it to hurt anyone by any means...
It's just that I love you all SOOOOOOOO Much and it is for that love I speak out.

quiet dove
Oct 29th 2008, 06:30 PM
Since pre tribbers are expecting to be taken in the clouds, why would they possibly accept one walking around the earth claiming to be Christ any more than a post tribber?



Could you see how it could fit into the plans of the Antichrist and how he would try to use that for his benefit against those who expected the true Christ first. Would that not be a perfect plan? To get them to expect the true Christ first and then come first claiming to be Christ/God?


This is based on an misunderstanding of what pre trib teaches, because pre trib does not anywhere teach that Christ will be walking around on the earth, making any claims in order to gather those who expect a pre trib raptured.

danlevans
Oct 30th 2008, 12:06 AM
Here are a couple of verses to consider.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor. 15:52

When does the last trumpet sound?

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. Rev. 8:6

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Rev.11:15

Saved!
Oct 30th 2008, 12:46 AM
In Rev. 7:9 is mentioned the multitude which no one could number of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...

How did they get there if the last trumpet has yet to sound?

I am always lost when it comes to Revelations...but, I am curious on this verse.

Saved!
Oct 30th 2008, 12:52 AM
And, by the 5th seal there are souls under the altar of those that had been slain for the word of God...

How are they there if the Rapture hasn't occured?

Saved!
Oct 30th 2008, 12:55 AM
And, if we are told that we are to be spared God's wrath:

Rev 6:17 says "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Does that mean that we are gone during this time-or that the wrath is going on around us but not affecting us?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 02:05 AM
And, by the 5th seal there are souls under the altar of those that had been slain for the word of God...

How are they there if the Rapture hasn't occured?Simple - because our souls go to heaven when we die. Another question back atcha: Why are we only seeing souls and not bodies if the Rapture has occurred?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 02:06 AM
And, if we are told that we are to be spared God's wrath:

Rev 6:17 says "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Does that mean that we are gone during this time-or that the wrath is going on around us but not affecting us?The Post-Trib Rapture occurs at the Sixth Seal, which is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Saved!
Oct 30th 2008, 02:45 AM
Yeah, you have a point there. Another remnant of my time listening to that same radio show for three years is that I sorta lost my footing on whether or not we (our souls) go straight to Heaven at our death or if we "soul sleep" until the Rapture-'nother topic of course.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 02:53 AM
Another remnant of my time listening to that same radio show for three years is that I sorta lost my footing on whether or not we (our souls) go straight to Heaven at our death or if we "soul sleep" until the Rapture-'nother topic of course.Ain't even a-goin' there. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/stubborn.gif

awestruckchild
Oct 30th 2008, 03:26 AM
Yeah, you have a point there. Another remnant of my time listening to that same radio show for three years is that I sorta lost my footing on whether or not we (our souls) go straight to Heaven at our death or if we "soul sleep" until the Rapture-'nother topic of course.

You know, when I found out that so many ppl think we go into a "soul-sleep", I was shocked. And I thought, well, maybe we do....
But then, I went searching for a verse that I would bet money I read somewhere in the bible, except for the life of me I cannot find it again and I have looked so many times and for so many months, I've just given up and begun to think I made it up in my dang head.

It was something like............and they saw many of their dead walking around....(this was after Jesus rose.)
Somehow I was convinced I read it in the NT and I still think I read it even though it appears to not be in there!

Another thing that shocked me was when I found out so many ppl think the rider of the white horse near the beginning of Revelation is the AC. But, I guess we all just have to feel our way through the light He gives us, huh?

crush
Oct 30th 2008, 03:41 AM
But then, I went searching for a verse that I would bet money I read somewhere in the bible, except for the life of me I cannot find it again and I have looked so many times and for so many months, I've just given up and begun to think I made it up in my dang head.

It was something like............and they saw many of their dead walking around....(this was after Jesus rose.)
Somehow I was convinced I read it in the NT and I still think I read it even though it appears to not be in there!


Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


In Rev. 7:9 is mentioned the multitude which no one could number of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb...

How did they get there if the last trumpet has yet to sound?

I am always lost when it comes to Revelations...but, I am curious on this verse.

The answer is given a couple of verses down...

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

IOW those martyred during the Great Tribulation

glory2b
Oct 30th 2008, 03:42 AM
I can think of a few right off.....to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, the story of Lazarus & where he was at with others(boosem of Abraham at the that time) & Lazarus looking and TALKING with those on the otherside. Some real crazy stuff in that book.....I love the story when Christ died and the tent vail ripped, earthquaked, and THA DEAD WALKED THE STREETS....now that is friggin awesome!! HA.....but I guess you could say that the noise & 'happenings' where so loud it woke the dead....hmmm.....HEEHEE...my heart is stuck on to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD!

cwb
Oct 30th 2008, 04:06 AM
Simple - because our souls go to heaven when we die. Another question back atcha: Why are we only seeing souls and not bodies if the Rapture has occurred?

They were given white robes in the fifth seal. Elsewhere in scripture clothes is used to represent our bodies.



I cor. 5:4
For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



Therefore I see a possibility that the white robes they are given represent their new glorified bodies and the fifth seal correlates with I thess 4:16 when the dead in Christ rise first. Not saying for sure that is what it is. Just saying I see that as a possibility.

awestruckchild
Oct 30th 2008, 04:21 AM
Oh Crush, thanks!
IEvery time I looked I couldn't find and kept thinking I would come across it again and somehow never did! Funny thing is, I ran to my bible to look it up and there it is, underlined in ink, then highlighted, then with a big star beside it! Haha!

So, as I said earlier, it was mostly because of that vs. that I couldn't fathom how ppl thought we went into a "soul-sleep."

Dani H
Oct 30th 2008, 04:48 AM
I fully expect the pre-tribbers after they're gone, to be rooting me on, while I'm still here, and when I'm all martyred and stuff, keep me a seat warm so we can all go out for a beer afterward and laugh at the whole thing.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/mugtoast.gif

awestruckchild
Oct 30th 2008, 05:01 AM
I fully expect the pre-tribbers after they're gone, to be rooting me on, while I'm still here, and when I'm all martyred and stuff, keep me a seat warm so we can all go out for a beer afterward and laugh at the whole thing.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/mugtoast.gif

seat warm - beer cold - got it!
Will try to remember not to reverse it..........warm beer, yech!!:eek:

My heart's Desire
Oct 30th 2008, 05:25 AM
I'm pretrib and what convinced me was Paul's writings. Also, to be pretrib one almost has to believe that God works with mankind in the dispensing of truth during different periods of time. We see this when we read of Israel being chosen, the Law with Sacrifices given, a Nation ruled by Kings and advised by God's prophets. On the other hand, we see this when the Church is formed of Jewish people and Gentiles based on the one perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. One almost has to be somewhat dispensational to be pretrib. God dealt with Israel with the Promises, the Law, and Sacrifices in the O.T.
God deals with believers in His Son and fulfils the Promises and the Law in the N.T.
The Nation of Israel was "chosen" and the Church are the "called out" ones.
We have the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, Israel and the Church. If that isn't dispensational I don't know what is. I believe this is why the Scriptures implores us to Rightly divide the Scriptures. It is more than a way of understanding them. You divide them.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 05:39 AM
I fully expect the pre-tribbers after they're gone, to be rooting me on, while I'm still here, and when I'm all martyred and stuff, keep me a seat warm so we can all go out for a beer afterward and laugh at the whole thing.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/mugtoast.gifThat smiley sure does look familiar....http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/twitch.gif

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/biggrin1.gif

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 05:40 AM
warm beer, yech!!:eek:A true beer drinker wouldn't care.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 05:42 AM
I'm pretrib and what convinced me was Paul's writings. Also, to be pretrib one almost has to believe that God works with mankind in the dispensing of truth during different periods of time. We see this when we read of Israel being chosen, the Law with Sacrifices given, a Nation ruled by Kings and advised by God's prophets. On the other hand, we see this when the Church is formed of Jewish people and Gentiles based on the one perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. One almost has to be somewhat dispensational to be pretrib. God dealt with Israel with the Promises, the Law, and Sacrifices in the O.T.
God deals with believers in His Son and fulfils the Promises and the Law in the N.T.
The Nation of Israel was "chosen" and the Church are the "called out" ones.
We have the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, Israel and the Church. If that isn't dispensational I don't know what is. I believe this is why the Scriptures implores us to Rightly divide the Scriptures. It is more than a way of understanding them. You divide them.It sounds like you have a very good understanding of the Pre-Trib position. :thumbsup:

My heart's Desire
Oct 30th 2008, 06:52 AM
:sleeping:
It sounds like you have a very good understanding of the Pre-Trib position. :thumbsup:
Not really. I do have somewhat of a understanding of the Dispensation position, on which pre-trib has to stand. Without it we'd be as others seeing prophecy just as the O.T Prophets did with all the mountains and none of the valleys. In which case, the Church was not seen, only prophecy as related to Israel and their concern. If one sees it that way then it would be easy to be any of the other trib positions.

(That didn't come out quite right, but you know what I mean, :) It's past bedtime. God Bless.:sleeping:

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 07:07 AM
:sleeping:
Not really. I do have somewhat of a understanding of the Dispensation position, on which pre-trib has to stand. Without it we'd be as others seeing prophecy just as the O.T Prophets did with all the mountains and none of the valleys. In which case, the Church was not seen, only prophecy as related to Israel and their concern. If one sees it that way then it would be easy to be any of the other trib positions.

(That didn't come out quite right, but you know what I mean, :) It's past bedtime. God Bless.:sleeping:OK, then you have a good understanding of Pre-Trib's dependency on Dispensationalism. :D

DIZZY
Oct 30th 2008, 08:07 AM
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 30th 2008, 12:23 PM
OK, then you have a good understanding of Pre-Trib's dependency on Dispensationalism. :D
:oOiy!! I'm very dispensational:huh:...and I'm POST TRIB!

I believe there are over a hundred dispensations (thousands actually), but you know, whose counting:lol:

I've never gotten past rev 20:3,4,5 etc... first is first, is first, is first etc....

awestruckchild
Oct 30th 2008, 12:52 PM
A true beer drinker wouldn't care.

Well, I'm getting a broader look at exactly who LiteralistLuke is....
A LiteraLukewarm-beer-drinkin opinion meister....
I'll 'fess up since you called me on it - you are right, I am not a true beer drinker, I am more of a beer.....borrower.

This will conclude my goofiness for today.

Veretax
Oct 30th 2008, 02:13 PM
I was raised Pre-Trib and remained so for 36 years. I became Post-Trib 3 years because I had listened to a radio show daily where the host was Post-Trib. His arguments for Post-Trib were convincing.

I did a little research in the scriptures and came to agree with him.

This, of course, wasn't easy...and has caused me a great, great deal of soul wrenching moments. I miss the old days where I felt like this world, with all of it tough moments would come to an abrupt end and I would meet my sisters, brothers and our Savior in the air. I so looked forward to that day.

Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position.

For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood.

Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom.

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)

I am sure there are other examples that have spoken to the hearts of Pre-Tribbers and have convinced them that our Lord intends to remove us from the ugliness of the Great Tribulation.

Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious.

If you are a Pre-Tribber, something convinced you to be so. I'd love to know what it is.


Those are some interesting analogies however. I put the salvataion of Noah at the day they entered the Ark, which if I'm not mistake was actually 7 days later:

Genesis 7: 1-4
"1 Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. 2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; 3 also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.""

The Genesis account of Jacob's lot is not entirely clear at what point during the 7 years of famine they arrived in Egypt the first time, or for the final. If it was the end of the famine then why did they not turn around and go right back to Caanan, so I'm inclined to believe it was in the middle of those 7 years somewhere, probably in the first half of the seven that they first came. Ah finally found it. Joseph revealed himself to his brothers somewhere in the 2nd or just after the 2nd Year:

Gen 45:5-6
5 But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life. 6 For these two years the famine has been in the land, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting.

So while Joseph's family endured for around 2 years of famine, they did not wait till the end.


As far as the Plagues in egypt, I thought I read somewhere, and this may be incorrect, that the first few plagues did actually effect Israel too, but the later ones didn't. Can't look that up right now.


However, for me the biggest analogy that gives me assurance about a pre-trib rapture is the birth-pains analogy. If you look at the end times as if one age is giving birth to another, and compare it to a mother given birth, it is obvious that the pains come and then go and have long duration between them early in the delivery. We even can have false contractions in a pregnancy that go away. It is not until the very last moments of that Pregnancy that they are so close together that the mother can then bear down and give birth.

To me that is one of the best analogies to describe the ending of this age. That's why I don't believe the Day of the Lord is only confined to the just before birth pains, but includes the entire process of delivery.


Also, I believe that we are in a time of Tribulation now, and in fact probably have been since Christ ascended. Has there ever been a time when no Christian has had to suffere persecution for their faith? I'm not so sure that there has been.

I believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, but I also believe, that there will be a great multitude saved during the Tribulation as well, many of whom will be martyred. However, whether I'm right or wrong, I strive to live daily by the Word and let it guide my path. If I'm wrong on my interpretation of the end times, I do not believe that is going to cause me to be deceived. I've been wrong on other things before, it would only be another, however I stand convinced that the entire "Tribulation" the '70th week of Daniel' cannot take place so long as the church as it is now is active in the world for God's Glory.

I also believe that the reference to "no man knows the day or the hour" is a reference to the 'new moon' feast of trumpets, which as I recall also lasts seven days.

However, regardless of which position is right (I grew up in a church where they believed in a 2nd Coming, but that most of revelation had already taken place, or at least that's all that was taught so eh.) I look fondly for the day I am with the Lord, if it comes by normal physical death, violently as a martyr, or if I'm translated/raptured to be with him, I long with Hope for that day to come, and for my physical body to finally be redeemed in totality from its fallen ways.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 04:21 PM
Well, I'm getting a broader look at exactly who LiteralistLuke is....
A LiteraLukewarm-beer-drinkin opinion meister....
I'll 'fess up since you called me on it - you are right, I am not a true beer drinker, I am more of a beer.....borrower.

This will conclude my goofiness for today.I actually don't like beer. I tried it a number of years ago when I became "legal" and thought "This is has to be what dirty dish water tastes like." I literally had to go in the bathroom and throw up, not because of the alcohol, which I have no problem with, but the taste, to me, was so bad that I couldn't stand it. I haven't had another one since.

I've been known to enjoy a mixed drink here and there (rarely), but I just do not care for beer. Now, having said that.....
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thtopic.gif

IBWatching
Oct 30th 2008, 05:34 PM
I was raised Pre-Trib and remained so for 36 years. I became Post-Trib 3 years because I had listened to a radio show daily where the host was Post-Trib. His arguments for Post-Trib were convincing.

I did a little research in the scriptures and came to agree with him.

This, of course, wasn't easy...and has caused me a great, great deal of soul wrenching moments. I miss the old days where I felt like this world, with all of it tough moments would come to an abrupt end and I would meet my sisters, brothers and our Savior in the air. I so looked forward to that day.

Even now, when I look at some of the stories in the Bible, I question my Post-Trib position.

For example, Noah and his family's removal prior to the flood.

Lot and his family's removal prior to the destruction of Sodom.

Joseph's family being spared hunger by joining Joseph in Egypt.

Israel not being harmed by the plagues on Egypt (though, I must admit, they were still in Eygpt during this time..however, they did not suffer.)

I am sure there are other examples that have spoken to the hearts of Pre-Tribbers and have convinced them that our Lord intends to remove us from the ugliness of the Great Tribulation.

Yet, I do wonder. If we were all raptured away, reasonably, wouldn't everyone that was left automatically know that the Bible was correct...and wouldn't the antichrist have a near-impossible time convincing folks that we weren't taken away by Jesus? Afterall, those that aren't saved and raptured away would still have intelligence enough to see the obvious.

If you are a Pre-Tribber, something convinced you to be so. I'd love to know what it is.

A lot of people who post in this forum seem to be seeking a "golden bullet" in regards to end times viewpoints. You know, that one verse that will effectually "kill" all opposing viewpoints. There is no such verse. Although, in some people's minds there seems to be. ;)

God has veiled the precise details of end times' events for us. We can argue, debate, discuss and meditate our brains and voices away until we just can't go any further, and still not have a "peace" about our end times' position. The best we can hope for is to find a "peace" within ourselves that allows us to function in our everyday lives and keep focused on the Church's main purpose, which is evangelism.

I have been a pre-tribber for almost as long as you were. I don't have any "killer" verses that can bring you back into the pre-trib camp. But quite honestly, I don't care about getting you back into that camp, or any other one for that matter. The inner peace you have/don't have is an issue I can't help you with. Only Scriptures and the Holy Spirit can. :)

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 08:48 PM
And, by the 5th seal there are souls under the altar of those that had been slain for the word of God...

How are they there if the Rapture hasn't occured?You don't believe that the souls and spirits of people go to be with the Lord in heaven when they die? Paul indicated that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Stephen saw Jesus in heaven and gave up his spirit to Him when he died.

Saved!
Oct 30th 2008, 09:01 PM
Well.....for most of my life I did believe that souls went straight to heaven at the moment of death. It was such a comfort.

Then, I heard that others interpreted the scriptures otherwise and I rethought it. Now, as with the Endtimes topic, I see that there are differing viewpoints/opinions on this.

I have been in the room with several folks over my life as they have spent their last days here on Earth...and from what I saw and heard from them, it seemed to me that they were going to be with the Lord immediately. So, I am not discounting that at all.

I most certainly hope that my dear loved ones are with Jesus right this minute. But, as I have said, I now know that the Bible can be interpreted to say that we do go to heaven immediately...or that we have to wait.

I'll just be glad to get to go home....right away, or after a wait-either way!

Dani H
Oct 31st 2008, 01:46 AM
I actually don't like beer. I tried it a number of years ago when I became "legal" and thought "This is has to be what dirty dish water tastes like." I literally had to go in the bathroom and throw up, not because of the alcohol, which I have no problem with, but the taste, to me, was so bad that I couldn't stand it. I haven't had another one since.

I've been known to enjoy a mixed drink here and there (rarely), but I just do not care for beer. Now, having said that.....
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/thtopic.gif

*gasp*
*gasp*
*faint*

Literalist-Luke
Oct 31st 2008, 02:01 AM
*gasp*
*gasp*
*faint*Hey, you're the one who started this with the beer smiley. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/rant.gif

For what it's worth, I can't believe you'd actually have a beer smiley in your collection, what kind of "Christian" are you? :D

Dani H
Oct 31st 2008, 02:24 AM
Hey, you're the one who started this with the beer smiley. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/rant.gif

For what it's worth, I can't believe you'd actually have a beer smiley in your collection, what kind of "Christian" are you? :D

The kind who's going to be tossing a beer mug in your general direction any minute now. :lol::lol:

Sorry for yet another derail.

BACK ON TOPIC.

My heart's Desire
Oct 31st 2008, 05:55 AM
A lot of people who post in this forum seem to be seeking a "golden bullet" in regards to end times viewpoints.
Yes, there has to be one somewhere otherwise why would God have wasted all that time having the prophets and apostles write every thing down? Just so No one would understand Until after the Fact?
opps, wait a minute...the Prophets prophecied the Birth, death and life of Jesus Christ the Messiah and Yet, many didn't know it when He did come even though many had been looking all their lives for His arrival...and why? Well, because He didn't meet the expectations of what Messiah would be like.

My heart's Desire
Oct 31st 2008, 06:00 AM
Hey, you're the one who started this with the beer smiley. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/rant.gif

For what it's worth, I can't believe you'd actually have a beer smiley in your collection, what kind of "Christian" are you? :D

Hey! Just hope we don't find out it really is a sin after we die? eh?
I know, I couldn't resist. I don't drink anyway.

crush
Oct 31st 2008, 05:26 PM
Oh Crush, thanks!
IEvery time I looked I couldn't find and kept thinking I would come across it again and somehow never did! Funny thing is, I ran to my bible to look it up and there it is, underlined in ink, then highlighted, then with a big star beside it! Haha!

So, as I said earlier, it was mostly because of that vs. that I couldn't fathom how ppl thought we went into a "soul-sleep."

NP paintdiva. Yes, underlining and highlighting something in your bible is a sure fire way for it not to be found again LOL.

wpm
Nov 1st 2008, 05:22 PM
we are not meant for God's wrath. There are many verses that state this, if you want me to, I can list them. :)
as for your last question, the answer is no, they wouldn't. God has already given evidence of His existence, His omnipotence, His omnicence, his omnipresence, etc, and look how many people still deny Him. There is also that big lie to contend with, whatever it may be. Their eyes are blinded by the devil. Look at all the people that actually knew Jesus. They saw Him, touched Him, walked with Him, yet still denied Him. If that doesn't convince every human, nothing is going to. I would have to say the number one reason I stay pre trib is because I trust God and the promises He made. He said that we were not meant for wrath, and I believe Him. If being deceived and damning our soul to hell isn't wrath, I don't know what is. If going through the tribulation, which is for Israel and those who denied God isn't wrath, I don't know what is.
You know, Jesus died on the cross for us. He suffered the wrath of almighty God because no human ever could. To me and the way I understand it, if we are left here to go through the trib, it is us trying to save ourselves by some kind of suffering....but when is it enough? The answer is, there is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Jesus has already completed that work. he has not judged the ungodly of this age yet, though, and I believe that is what the tribulation is. His judgement on the ungodly of this age who have denied Him. There is not one verse of scripture that tells me I am going to go through the great tribulation, but many to refute that idea. God Bless.

It is Pretrib that has countless believers being subject to the wrath of God. I believe the Bible teaches that all believers (as at the flood and in Sodom) will be rescued before the destruction of all the wicked (as at the flood and in Sodom).

wpm
Nov 1st 2008, 05:27 PM
I offer that what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is NOT the wrath of God, but it is the wrath of Satan AGAINST those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus. One example of this is here:

Revelation 13:2-7
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You see, how can he "make war with the saints and overcome them" if they are raptured away before he comes to power???

Then, there is this:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (Isn't Paul speaking here about the coming of Christ, when we are gathered together unto him, when the dead in Christ arise FIRST and we who are alive and remain are changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye?)

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, what is referred to as "The Great Tribulation" is the WRATH OF SATAN against anyone and anything that "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ Jesus."

The WRATH OF GOD is against all ungodly, including those who do this:
Revelation 16:1-2
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

In verse #2, we see the very FIRST people to be under the wrath of God when it is poured out...are those who had the mark of the beast and worshipped his image. The saints, by this time, HAVE BEEN taken--KEPT! (See Revelation chapter 14.) But, this is after the time of the "mark of the beast" in Revelation chapter 13!

I see three kinds of wrath:
1- The wrath of Satan
2- The wrath of God
3- The wrath of man (as when kings went against other kingdoms, or nations go against other nations, or indivually, as it was when King Saul went against David to try to eliminate him.)

And I offer that we must consider the question: Is what I'm reading in the Bible the wrath of God? Or the wrath of Satan? Or even the wrath of man? Obviously, God never pours his wrath on those who are his. But who does? Satan, that's who does! With fury, with a vengance he (Satan) makes war against the saints, in an effort to eliminate them from the face of the earth.

But in every example in scripture God KEEPS those who belong to him! God's wrath is poured out all around them, but they are KEPT. Which does not mean Christians will never be killed. That is happening every day, worldwide, even as we type here.

But, there are those who will remain HIS, even if it takes their head from their bodies. They love not their life more than Him.

Well put. Good research. :)

Literalist-Luke
Nov 1st 2008, 06:48 PM
It is Pretrib that has countless believers being subject to the wrath of God.Uh, come again? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/twitch.gif

Veretax
Nov 1st 2008, 10:38 PM
Uh, come again? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/twitch.gif

He's saying that most pretribbers believe that during the trib some shall be saved and fall under God's wrath. I don't entirely agree with that, but I can understand how he might interpret it that way.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 1st 2008, 11:52 PM
He's saying that most pretribbers believe that during the trib some shall be saved and fall under God's wrath. I don't entirely agree with that, but I can understand how he might interpret it that way.Oh, "Tribulation Saints" going through God's wrath, OK, got it. Thanks. :thumbsup:

You know, you just made me realize a whole new argument to use against Pre-Trib. Thanks! http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gif

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 12:57 AM
Oh, "Tribulation Saints" going through God's wrath, OK, got it. Thanks. :thumbsup:

You know, you just made me realize a whole new argument to use against Pre-Trib. Thanks! http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gif

Thats interesting because post trib and amil both have Christians going through God's wrath also, but it is wrong for pre trib? well, Iam not sure about amil because I can't remember at the moment how the GT is viewed.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:08 AM
Thats interesting because post trib and amil both have Christians going through God's wrath also, but it is wrong for pre trib? well, Iam not sure about amil because I can't remember at the moment how the GT is viewed.Well, my version of Post-Trib has the saints enduring none of God's wrath. :D

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:11 AM
Then the saints get raptured prior to the Second Coming? Sorry, now I'm confused, not being sarcastic.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:16 AM
Then the saints get raptured prior to the Second Coming? Sorry, now I'm confused, not being sarcastic.The Day of the Lord begins at the Rapture/2nd Coming, at the time of the Sixth Seal. In my scenario.

wpm
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:24 AM
Thats interesting because post trib and amil both have Christians going through God's wrath also, but it is wrong for pre trib? well, Iam not sure about amil because I can't remember at the moment how the GT is viewed.

It is Pretrib that equates their 7yr trib with the wrath of God. If they are consistent they must admit that the trib saints are placed under the wrath of God - something they challenge Posttrib on.

Posttrib Amils believe that the righteous are never under the wrath of God. They are rescued before the wrath of God destroys all the wicked at Christ's climactic Coming. They believe the trib is intra-Advent and relates to the wrath of Satan against the Church. The wrath of God is upon the wicked continually.

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:30 AM
The Day of the Lord begins at the Rapture/2nd Coming, at the time of the Sixth Seal. In my scenario.

Thats where we differ, or one place. Since Christ opens all the seals it seems to me that all the seals are God's wrath, not just the sixth and seventh.

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:40 AM
It is Pretrib that equates their 7yr trib with the wrath of God. If they are consistent they must admit that the trib saints are placed under the wrath of God - something they challenge Posttrib on.

Posttrib Amils believe that the righteous are never under the wrath of God. They are rescued before the wrath of God destroys all the wicked at Christ's climactic Coming. They believe the trib is intra-Advent and relates to the wrath of Satan against the Church. The wrath of God is upon the wicked continually.

Does that mean then that famine and war, death, all the things of the wrath of God, His own are not effected by those things? When the world has no food, God will feed His saints, He just won't prevent His saints from being persecuted by Satan. Basically He feeds them and protects them, keeps them going enough for Satan to come along and kill them?

And hasn't Satan's wrath been upon those of God all along, through out history? What wrath of God has fallen continually upon the wicked?

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:23 AM
Then the saints get raptured prior to the Second Coming? Sorry, now I'm confused, not being sarcastic.Only, we know there is a resurrection at the 2cd coming but I don't see the meeting of the saints with the Lord in the air there. Do you Quiet Dove?

wpm
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:25 AM
Does that mean then that famine and war, death, all the things of the wrath of God, His own are not effected by those things? When the world has no food, God will feed His saints, He just won't prevent His saints from being persecuted by Satan. Basically He feeds them and protects them, keeps them going enough for Satan to come along and kill them?

And hasn't Satan's wrath been upon those of God all along, through out history? What wrath of God has fallen continually upon the wicked?

The wrath of God has always been exclusively upon the wicked, and is never directed toward the righteous. Ephesians 5:5-6 says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

The tribulation that the saints suffer is from Satan (and not God) and has been ongoing since the Garden of Eden. That persecution has been great and will be the believer’s lot on this earth up until the glorious all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord. .

Jesus said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

The Bible teaches that the wrath of God is solely upon the wicked and upon all wickedness. As Paul says in Romans 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”

Colossians 3:6 says, “the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”

Nahum 1:2 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.”

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:28 AM
It is Pretrib that equates their 7yr trib with the wrath of God. If they are consistent they must admit that the trib saints are placed under the wrath of God - something they challenge Posttrib on.

Posttrib Amils believe that the righteous are never under the wrath of God. They are rescued before the wrath of God destroys all the wicked at Christ's climactic Coming. They believe the trib is intra-Advent and relates to the wrath of Satan against the Church. The wrath of God is upon the wicked continually.
Yet, the 7 yrs are the 70th week of Daniel which is of the flavor of Israel. And the Church is not Israel. The many many of the trib period saints will more than likely be martyred before the 31/2 Great Trib. (But just to add, I'm not convinced of that though.)

Diggindeeper
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:29 AM
The Bible is very plain about what is the wrath of God, for example Revelations chapter 16. Or 2 Peter. Or even in the very words of Jesus as in Matthew 13, when he said, "In the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them."

In other places, too, the Bible is explicit, crystal clear and detailed in warning about the wrath of God, but that time is NOT during any Great Tribulation. One IS the wrath of satan, but the wrath of God is undeniably different than the wath of satan. Famines, war, death is NOT the wrath of God.

God does increase such things, in Judgements. But any time the wrath of God comes down, all wicked are destroyed in his wrath. No one is left behind for a second chance!

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:33 AM
God does increase such things, in Judgements. But any time the wrath of God comes down, all wicked are destroyed in his wrath. No one is left behind for a second chance!

That is probably true considering that only the redeemed will enter the Mill. Kingdom and only they will be left alive.

Lamplighter
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:59 AM
I believe in a pre-trib catching away event, but I don't care either way. I don't put my trust in the Rapture, I put my trust in Christ, whenever he returns, pre or post tribulation. Christ is returning either way.

Here are some of my shared opinions on a pre-trib Rapture. First of all, you might want some direct revelation, from Scripture (not me), that shows God’s program for Christ’s believer Church, made up of the seven churches mentioned in the Book of Revelation, that begins at Pentecost and ends with the Rapture. Revelation 4:1-3 shows the Apostle John being invited to see the future of Christ’s Church played out before him. Here we see John actually invited up (Raptured) into heaven to see and speak to these seven churches who were there worshipping God prior to the opening of the seals (scrolls) that began the wrath of the Tribulation period. When Christ (The Lamb) breaks the seals in chapter 6 through chapter 8 verse 4, John is allowed to witness the “saints” that were “too many to count” and “people from every nation, race, tribe, and language” who were “dressed in white robes” that were “washed in the blood of The Lamb” who are standing in font of the throne of heaven praying. These saints cannot be mistaken for any other besides the saints of the rapture. The Jews (144,000), who were written in the Book of the Lamb, are mentioned quite separately in chapter 7. The saints proclaimed loudly there before The Throne, “Salvation comes from our God on the throne and from the Lamb!”(Revelation 7:10.) This is the succinct language and the heavy indications of none other than born-again believers. What is important to note here is that this was John being shown by God the future of the church-age believers, who were praising God for saving them (Revelation 7:10), and receiving their reward (Revelation 7:15-17), before the trumpets were sounded (Revelation 8:5 through Revelation 11:19). These trumpets were, in fact, depictions of the first 3 ½ years of the Tribulation period.

As if that is not enough to bring the pre-tribulation evidence to the forefront, then let’s examine some more direct Scripture in evidence to the fact. The New Testament teaches that the Church (true believers) will be removed by the Rapture before the Tribulation begins (1 Thessalonians 1:10). This verse tells us that the “saints” are waiting for “Jesus” to “come from heaven” to “save them from the Retribution which is coming.” Now, is it just me, or is that not extremely clear? If there is some question still, then read 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The Retribution, the Apostle Paul explains in Romans 1:18 through 3:20, is meant for the unbelievers among the chosen Jews and the Gentiles, but not the faithful (who simply wait for the Rapture). Then, there is 2 Peter 2:4-9 that emphasizes how God always rescued the faithful from circumstance where He poured out His wrath, before they had to face it. This is the nature and history of a God that is the "same yesterday, today, and forever" (always). Still other verses of Scripture add evidence to evidence that the saints will be kept from the Retribution, such as 1 Thessalonians 5:9; and Revelation 3:10. Yes, it is definitely true and evident that the church-age believers will be in heaven during the Tribulation. We see them, in Revelation 4:4,9-11; 7:13-14; and 19:4, as the “24 elders.” These saints will undergo the judgment seat of Christ, during the seven year Tribulation period in preparation (Revelation 19:4-10,19) for accompanying Christ at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:14). We see the heavenly preparation of the Church, during the Tribulation period (Revelation 19:7). As the story seems to go, in God’s scheme of things, the true Church is Raptured to heaven and those unbelievers left in the organized church (the institutional church) will pass into the Tribulation and form the base for the apostate super church. This is the church that the False Prophet will use to aid the worldwide rule of the Antichrist (see Revelation 13; 17-18). Once again, the true Church of Jesus Christ will not go through the Tribulation.

The Church is mentioned 17 times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but after John (a member of the Church) is called up to heaven, at the beginning of chapter 4, he looks down on the events of the Tribulation, and the Church is not mentioned or seen again until chapter 19, when she returns to earth with her Bridegroom at His glorious appearing. Why? The answer is obvious: she isn’t in the Tribulation. She is raptured to be with her Lord before it begins!

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 03:15 AM
The wrath of God has always been exclusively upon the wicked, and is never directed toward the righteous. Ephesians 5:5-6 says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

The tribulation that the saints suffer is from Satan (and not God) and has been ongoing since the Garden of Eden. That persecution has been great and will be the believer’s lot on this earth up until the glorious all-consummating Second Advent of the Lord. .

Jesus said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

The Bible teaches that the wrath of God is solely upon the wicked and upon all wickedness. As Paul says in Romans 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”

Colossians 3:6 says, “the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”

Nahum 1:2 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.”

I said nothing that disagrees with this.

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 03:42 AM
Only, we know there is a resurrection at the 2cd coming but I don't see the meeting of the saints with the Lord in the air there. Do you Quiet Dove?


No, I don't see those resurected after His second coming as being the ones who come with Him.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:03 AM
Thats where we differ, or one place. Since Christ opens all the seals it seems to me that all the seals are God's wrath, not just the sixth and seventh.Oh, I wouldn't even call the sixth and seventh seals His wrath, nor even the trumpets. Only the bowls.

cwb
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:10 AM
Oh, I wouldn't even call the sixth and seventh seals His wrath, nor even the trumpets. Only the bowls.

When a whole lot of bad things happen as a result of angels blowing trumpets, it certainly sounds like the wrath of God to me.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:11 AM
All wicked are destroyed in his wrath. No one is left behind for a second chance!
Only the redeemed will enter the Mill. Kingdom and only they will be left alive.The problem here is with the mistaken assumption that all unbelievers are automatically condemned. Jesus’ exact words in Matthew 25:32 are “all nations” will be gathered before Him. Most people take this to mean every single person on the entire planet Earth will stand before Jesus at this point to receive their judgment of either being welcomed into the Kingdom or being cast out into “outer darkness” and “gnashing of teeth”. But what does “all nations” mean? Is there any indication in the Bible about exactly what “all nations” actually means? There are numerous uses throughout the Bible of the phrase “all nations.” Zechariah 14:2 says “I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it.” Using the everyone-in-the-world understanding of the same words in Matthew 25, this would mean that every man, woman, and child on the earth will be gathered together to “fight” against Jerusalem at Armageddon. Is that really what we wish to assert? In addition, look at the following quotes:

Isaiah 2:2-4 – “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Many people would quickly argue (as I once did) that this is talking about unbelievers who are born later on during the already-established Kingdom. But then, where did the “swords” and “spears” come from? If all weapons are banned during the Millennial Kingdom, why are these people having to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”? They have apparently entered the Kingdom with this equipment and are now having to destroy it.

Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.”

Again, who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Do we wish to suggest that gentile believers will be Israel’s slaves during the Millennium?

One more:

Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

Who are these survivors?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:17 AM
When a whole lot of bad things happen as a result of angels blowing trumpets, it certainly sounds like the wrath of God to me.But it's still only an opinion. The Sixth Seal indicates that the wrath of God is just beginning at that point....

Revelation 6:17 - "The great day of their wrath has come."

Plus the Seventh Trumpet indicates the same in Revelation 11:18 where we are told "Your wrath has come."

The Sixth Seal and the Seventh Trumpet occur at about the same time, followed by the Day of the Lord as the bowls are poured out.

Lamplighter
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:30 AM
The problem here is with the mistaken assumption that all unbelievers are automatically condemned. Jesus’ exact words in Matthew 25:32 are “all nations” will be gathered before Him. Most people take this to mean every single person on the entire planet Earth will stand before Jesus at this point to receive their judgment of either being welcomed into the Kingdom or being cast out into “outer darkness” and “gnashing of teeth”. But what does “all nations” mean? Is there any indication in the Bible about exactly what “all nations” actually means? There are numerous uses throughout the Bible of the phrase “all nations.” Zechariah 14:2 says “I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it.” Using the everyone-in-the-world understanding of the same words in Matthew 25, this would mean that every man, woman, and child on the earth will be gathered together to “fight” against Jerusalem at Armageddon. Is that really what we wish to assert? In addition, look at the following quotes:

Isaiah 2:2-4 – “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Many people would quickly argue (as I once did) that this is talking about unbelievers who are born later on during the already-established Kingdom. But then, where did the “swords” and “spears” come from? If all weapons are banned during the Millennial Kingdom, why are these people having to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”? They have apparently entered the Kingdom with this equipment and are now having to destroy it.

Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.”

Again, who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Do we wish to suggest that gentile believers will be Israel’s slaves during the Millennium?

One more:

Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

Who are these survivors?

This is what I have been talking about in another thread.

Who are the nations of people in the Millennium who are in all the 4 corners of the Earth, whose number is as the sand of the sea? These nations of people are going to join Satan's army when he is set free from his prison at the end of the Millennium, and are going to attack the Saints, and then God is going to send fire down to devour Satan and his army of the nations. All of this can be read about in Revelation 20:7-9.

Obviously, not all of the unbelievers are destroyed before the Millennium, or there would not be nations of people from the 4 corners of the Earth to join Satan in one last battle with the saints and God.

Also, not everybody from these nations join Satan's army, because in Revelation chapters 21 and 22, Christ and the saints will be ruling over the nations, and only the saints can enter into the Holy City, while the nations who are not the saints, can bring glory and honor to the Holy City. So there will be nations of people who are not the saints, living in New Heaven and New Earth, kept alive by the tree of life in Revelation 22:2, since they do not have everlasting transfigured resurrection bodies like the saints have.

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 05:56 AM
The problem here is with the mistaken assumption that all unbelievers are automatically condemned. Jesus’ exact words in Matthew 25:32 are “all nations” will be gathered before Him.

I believe the sheep and goat judgment is right after Jesus returns. It will be a judgment based on how these treated the Jewish (Jesus' brethren) people during the tribulation, the hungry, the cold, those in prison. etc. The nations means Gentiles. The sheep will inherit the kingdom and the goats are sent to eternal punishment. It is these sheep who will enter the kingdom. You may note they get to enter by proof of their works.
At this judgment, no books are opened as at the end of the Mill. are.

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:06 AM
Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.”


How do we know this is referring to the 1000 yr period? I don't see that in context.

Richard H
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:12 AM
Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:21 AM
Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

Who are these survivors?

When does this attack occur? Against Jerusalem? There are 2 battles..Armageddon when the armies are destroyed at Christ's coming and then the rebellion at the end of the 1000 yrs. Which is the attack of Jerusalem that this verse refers to? The last one of Gog and Magog? It can't be can it? For all of them are destroyed. There are no survivors.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 07:37 AM
How do we know this is referring to the 1000 yr period? I don't see that in context.Then show me anytime after Isaiah's prediction (since he wrote it in future tense) that it has already happened.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 07:38 AM
When does this attack occur? Against Jerusalem? There are 2 battles..Armageddon when the armies are destroyed at Christ's coming and then the rebellion at the end of the 1000 yrs. Which is the attack of Jerusalem that this verse refers to? The last one of Gog and Magog? It can't be can it? For all of them are destroyed. There are no survivors.Considering that Zechariah concludes with the 2nd Coming, it shouldn't be hard to figure out that the events leading up to that event in Zechariah would be shortly before the 2nd Coming.

Veretax
Nov 2nd 2008, 11:53 AM
Oh, "Tribulation Saints" going through God's wrath, OK, got it. Thanks. :thumbsup:

You know, you just made me realize a whole new argument to use against Pre-Trib. Thanks! http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gif

Revelation says the 144K are sealed from these things that happen, so the wrath probably does not fall on them, however, does no one find it interesting about the number use in Revelation? 4 times 7?

7 Churches
7 Seals
7 Trumpets
7 Vials


Is not 7 God's number of completeness, so why is it that some of you seem to think that oh only 6-7 of the seals, 7th Trumpet, and the 7 vials is the Tribulation? This is what I've never understood, The analogy is used of this time as a woman (or man even in one place) as being in travail -> Birth Pains. Do not birth pains in a mother start with lots of time between each contraction? Is it not also possible that some things, (Braxton-Hicks) false contractions even, can happen before the end? I just fail to see how Revelation is not showing the following:

7 Churches -> The Completion of God's church before the Rapture

7 Seals -> The beginning of the Birth Pains
7 Trumpets -> The more obvious and acceleration of those Birth Pains
7 Vials -> The nearly ready to give Birth Pains

So if the 7 Churches Complete his Church, his 'Bride' before the Rapture, then 3 times 7 he brings about the end of the age. I find the numerology here to be very interesting.

This is how I see revelation. The Tribulation can't happen until his NT Church is completed and taken in the Rapture. That's how I understand it Whether you want to say the 'wrath' at times is from men or Satan is Irrelevant. God used wicked kings like Nebuchadnezzar to Judge Israel, why can't he use Satan to bring Judgment upon the earth?

Marc B
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:25 PM
I know I can come across quite aggressive and I really do not mean to.
Like you Luke, I too only speak out because of my concern and my Love for my Brothers & Sisters in Christ.

I see the end times as; the Church will be here until the 7th trumpet, Which, (by my view) places the Church here during the time of the Antichrist. This gives me concern for my Brothers & Sisters in Christ who believed in pre-trib.

As I read some scriptures such as Matthew 24 or 2 Thess 2 there seems to be someone who will be going around saying they are Christ/God to try to deceive the very elect and Jesus tells us to believe it not. I believe that someone to be the antichrist.



This is my “what if”?

There are a whole lot of people expecting the true Christ to come first.
Lets suppose the Antichrist comes first claiming to be Christ/God.

Could you see how it could fit into the plans of the Antichrist and how he would try to use that for his benefit against those who expected the true Christ first. Would that not be a perfect plan? To get them to expect the true Christ first and then come first claiming to be Christ/God?

Scenario;
The antichrist (false Christ) comes first claiming to be Christ/God
If a person is adamant that the true Christ comes first and instead the false Christ comes first claiming to be Christ could that cause some to be caught of guard, because they expected the true Christ first? That is my GREAT concern...The "What if"...Could it be possible that some might be caught of guard? I don't know if that would even be possible, but if there is even a remote chance of it, then I must speak out in a warning.

So for me; If I seem pushy with my view, It is only because I love you all so much. I do not do it for my benefit, but for the Love of my Brothers & Sisters in Christ.

Please try to remember that, during the times that I seem pushy, I don't try to do it to hurt anyone by any means...
It's just that I love you all SOOOOOOOO Much and it is for that love I speak out.


I feel the same way you do. I can't stress the point enough to dig for the truth and not just take anything for granted as truth. Ask the hard questions and not just the easy ones. The Bible plainly states the antichrist comes first and will deceive many. If anyone believes the true Christ is coming first they will be part of the falling away since they will follow him instead of waiting for the true Messiah being led to believe the latter is the false one or worse, the antichrist has already come and gone. No matter how convincing the first one will seem and you can bet he will be very convincing to biblically illiterate people, don't listen to anything he says. He will use the Bible to confuse Christians to follow him as the saviour of mankind.

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 03:27 PM
Oh, I wouldn't even call the sixth and seventh seals His wrath, nor even the trumpets. Only the bowls.

My point was though, I believe it starts with the first seal being opened. When that first seal gets opened, God's wrath begins. And His wrath begins by giving them what they want because they have rejected the Truth for the Lie.

cwb
Nov 2nd 2008, 03:29 PM
But it's still only an opinion. The Sixth Seal indicates that the wrath of God is just beginning at that point....

Revelation 6:17 - "The great day of their wrath has come."

Plus the Seventh Trumpet indicates the same in Revelation 11:18 where we are told "Your wrath has come."

The Sixth Seal and the Seventh Trumpet occur at about the same time, followed by the Day of the Lord as the bowls are poured out.

Saying the sixth seal and seventh trumpet occur at the same time is only an opinion. When I read the book of revelation, it certainly looks to me that the all the trumpets occur after the seals.



But it's still only an opinion.


O.K., I see. Anything cwb says is only an opinion. Anything Literalist-Luke says is fact.:rolleyes:

yoSAMite
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:41 PM
But it's still only an opinion. The Sixth Seal indicates that the wrath of God is just beginning at that point....

Revelation 6:17 - "The great day of their wrath has come."

Plus the Seventh Trumpet indicates the same in Revelation 11:18 where we are told "Your wrath has come."

The Sixth Seal and the Seventh Trumpet occur at about the same time, followed by the Day of the Lord as the bowls are poured out.
But doesn't Rev 6:17 say that God's wrath has come, as in past tense?

wpm
Nov 2nd 2008, 08:48 PM
I said nothing that disagrees with this.

Pretrib argues one of the reasons for the rapture is that God won't subject His people to wrath, yet Pretrib actually does that. Amil doesn't. There are no elect subject to wrath - as I showed you. Pretrib places untold believers in the wrath of God - which they equate with 7 yrs trib.

My heart's Desire
Nov 2nd 2008, 10:42 PM
Pretrib argues one of the reasons for the rapture is that God won't subject His people to wrath, yet Pretrib actually does that.
Actually, not quite, because Pre Trib sees the Church dispensation apart from the time periods of other saints. When the Church meets the Lord in the air and the time of Jacob's trouble begins, those who become believers in this period are sealed, or martyred or protected from the events in that time. If there is a pretrib rapture of the Church then there will be NO believers on earth at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. Our Church period is of GRACE. It will be different somewhat afterward as demonstrated at the sheep and goat judgment, in how believers treated the Jewish people. At that time, their works will demonstrate their faith.

yoSAMite
Nov 2nd 2008, 10:53 PM
Agree mostly My Hearts Desire, but there are some of us who also believe that there will be a time space between the rapture and the start of Daniel's 70th week. How long, no idea.

Diggindeeper
Nov 2nd 2008, 11:02 PM
Agree mostly My Hearts Desire, but there are some of us who also believe that there will be a time space between the rapture and the start of Daniel's 70th week. How long, no idea.

Why? I mean, why a time space?

To me, the dead in Christ rise first.
Then, we who are alive and remain are caught up TOGETHER with them. Then, is poured out the wrath of God on all the unbelieving, the abominable, etc.

All who are left are only the unbelieving, the abominable, etc., which are then totally destroyed.

I can't find even ONE scripture that tells me that people will wonder where we all vanished to. Not one scripture....

The rapture is in Revelation chapter 14.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:02 AM
Why? I mean, why a time space?

To me, the dead in Christ rise first.
Then, we who are alive and remain are caught up TOGETHER with them. Then, is poured out the wrath of God on all the unbelieving, the abominable, etc.

All who are left are only the unbelieving, the abominable, etc., which are then totally destroyed.

I can't find even ONE scripture that tells me that people will wonder where we all vanished to. Not one scripture....

The rapture is in Revelation chapter 14.

If the rapture is in Rev. 14, the unbelieving will still be wondering where the where those who were raptured went to.

Diggindeeper
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:15 AM
Okay. Just show me scripture.

John4theLord
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:15 AM
Greetings brethren.
I'm new here, but love the subject. Eschatology's always been fun.

Curious - If you harmonize Matt 24:31 with 1 Cor 15:52, doesn't any position requiring trumpets to blow after the last trumpet stand contrary to plain declarations of Scripture? Just checking.

Thanks for the opportunity to grow and share with you all.

As always, much love in Christ.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:34 AM
My point was though, I believe it starts with the first seal being opened. When that first seal gets opened, God's wrath begins. And His wrath begins by giving them what they want because they have rejected the Truth for the Lie.Yeah, I knew that's what you think. I just didn't know if it might have been unclear what I was thinking. :)

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:36 AM
Anything Literalist-Luke says is fact.:rolleyes:Finally, somebody sees the light! :lol:

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:38 AM
But doesn't Rev 6:17 say that God's wrath has come, as in past tense?Past tense would be something like "God's wrath came." "Has come" is present past tense.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:40 AM
Okay. Just show me scripture.

So the unbelieving see the righteous vanish before their eyes, you don't think the unbelieving are going to wonder what happened and where they vanished to? I sort of think they will be wondering where the righteous went when they see them vanish before there very eyes.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:41 AM
Finally, somebody sees the light! :lol:
Can you believe it took me so long. Man I'm slow:B

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:46 AM
, but there are some of us who also believe that there will be a time space between the rapture and the start of Daniel's 70th week. How long, no idea.Well, I forgot to put that part in. There is really no where that says, after the Church is caught up to Christ that the 70th immediately begins. It only describes that the man of lawless is revealed afterward but doesn't give a time frame for the between there either.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:48 AM
Actually, not quite, because Pre Trib sees the Church dispensation apart from the time periods of other saints. When the Church meets the Lord in the air and the time of Jacob's trouble begins, those who become believers in this period are sealed, or martyred or protected from the events in that time. If there is a pretrib rapture of the Church then there will be NO believers on earth at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. Our Church period is of GRACE. It will be different somewhat afterward as demonstrated at the sheep and goat judgment, in how believers treated the Jewish people. At that time, their works will demonstrate their faith.Are the so-called Trib Saints not God's people as well? Sure, they would enter the Tribulation as unbelievers in the Pre-Trib scenario. But they would become God's people as they are "saved" and yet would still have to endure the full wrath of God. Sumpin' just don't seem right 'bout that. :)

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:50 AM
So the unbelieving see the righteous vanish before their eyes, you don't think the unbelieving are going to wonder what happened and where they vanished to? I sort of think they will be wondering where the righteous went when they see them vanish before there very eyes."Vanishing" is something that is not supported by Scripture, regardless of your Rapture timing. Paul said we will all be "changed", not "dematerialized". We will be seen ascending in our changed bodies. There will be no question what happens to us.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:52 AM
Can you believe it took me so long. Man I'm slow:BI'll cut ya all the slack you need. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/cigar.gif

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:53 AM
Well, I forgot to put that part in. There is really no where that says, after the Church is caught up to Christ that the 70th immediately begins. It only describes that the man of lawless is revealed afterward but doesn't give a time frame for the between there either.IF the Pre-Trib scenario is true, then this is exactly right.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:53 AM
So the unbelieving see the righteous vanish before their eyes, you don't think the unbelieving are going to wonder what happened and where they vanished to? I sort of think they will be wondering where the righteous went when they see them vanish before there very eyes. And it is possible that the right man will have the answer but not the true one right?
We COULD speculate as others have that they will say UFOs, maybe times will be such they are convinced it is the wicked who disappeared instead of the righteous and those left are the righteous?
We do the same now before the fact do we not? The sickle drawn, the earth is reaped...are they the wicked? Was it the rapture? ETC, etc.
Of course, they will wonder, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. The 70th week will be a time of the supernatural as we have neither seen nor known before as Revelation will testify.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:58 AM
"Vanishing" is something that is not supported by Scripture, regardless of your Rapture timing. Paul said we will all be "changed", not "dematerialized". We will be seen ascending in our changed bodies. There will be no question what happens to us. Agree there. What is seen of the dead in Christ is another thing. We can only speculate if the graves open and are seen or not. We don't even know if the body sown will rise and change also in midair or if that will be seen. Probably not as the fraction of time taken, nothing is seen.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:00 AM
I'll cut ya all the slack you need. http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/cigar.gif

Since you're cutting me slack, I need your Sooners to beat Texas Tech.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:06 AM
Are the so-called Trib Saints not God's people as well? Sure, they would enter the Tribulation as unbelievers in the Pre-Trib scenario. But they would become God's people as they are "saved" and yet would still have to endure the full wrath of God. Sumpin' just don't seem right 'bout that. :)
Well, Scripture says that God sends a delusion afterward that all left will believe a lie. Also, if the man of sin comes on the scene chances are any who do believe, will be martyred early. Revelation gives plenty about the character of those left. They want to hide from God, they will not give Him glory. Not to mention, the billions who die almost as soon as the judgments begin to fall. Something tells me there will not be many who will believe. Regardless we know some will also.We are told mostly about those who are rescued supernaturally, and those who are sealed (144.000) but even they will be martyred.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:19 AM
Agree there. What is seen of the dead in Christ is another thing. We can only speculate if the graves open and are seen or not. We don't even know if the body sown will rise and change also in midair or if that will be seen. Probably not as the fraction of time taken, nothing is seen.You might be right. We'll just hafta wait 'n see. :D

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:24 AM
Since you're cutting me slack, I need your Sooners to beat Texas Tech.Can you say "revenge"? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/heh.gif

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:28 AM
Well, Scripture says that God sends a delusion afterward that all left will believe a lie. Also, if the man of sin comes on the scene chances are any who do believe, will be martyred early. Revelation gives plenty about the character of those left. They want to hide from God, they will not give Him glory. Not to mention, the billions who die almost as soon as the judgments begin to fall. Something tells me there will not be many who will believe. Regardless we know some will also.We are told mostly about those who are rescued supernaturally, and those who are sealed (144.000) but even they will be martyred.The argument being presented is that the entire seven years is God's wrath. So being "martyred early" won't cover that. Even if they are martyred early, they've still been through a time of God's wrath.

Plus you say that "not many" will be saved, but even one is all it would take for "God's person" to have to endure the wrath. Besides, most Pre-Tribbers would argue that the great multitude "beyond number" in Revelation 7 is Trib Saints being martyred. If that's true, then you have a group of God's people "beyond number" who are on the earth, enduring a time of God's wrath. This would seem to be a problem.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:31 AM
"Vanishing" is something that is not supported by Scripture, regardless of your Rapture timing. Paul said we will all be "changed", not "dematerialized". We will be seen ascending in our changed bodies. There will be no question what happens to us.

So what scripture shows the we will be seen ascending? When I read about Phillip was raptured when talking to the eunuch in Acts, it leads me to believe we will not be seen by the unbelievers.

Acts 2:39-40



And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo or raptured) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.


The eunuch saw him no more and Phillip was found in a different city.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:39 AM
So what scripture shows the we will be seen ascending?Jesus was seen ascending in Acts 1. Do you have something that suggests to the contrary?
When I read about Phillip was raptured when talking to the eunuch in Acts, it leads me to believe we will not be seen by the unbelievers.

Acts 2:39-40

The eunuch saw him no more and Phillip was found in a different city.Philip's experience was not a Rapture because he wasn't "changed", it doesn't apply.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:57 AM
Jesus was seen ascending in Acts 1. Do you have something that suggests to the contrary?

What does Jesus being seen have to do with whether we are seen or not? The greek word for rapture (harpazo) is not used when describing Jesus' ascension.




Philip's experience was not a Rapture because he wasn't "changed", it doesn't apply.



I have not seen anything in scripture that says it is not a rapture unless the person is changed first. I am going by the Greek words used to describe both situations. "Harpazo" is used in both scenarios.




I Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.





Acts 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:01 AM
The argument being presented is that the entire seven years is God's wrath. So being "martyred early" won't cover that. Even if they are martyred early, they've still been through a time of God's wrath.

Plus you say that "not many" will be saved, but even one is all it would take for "God's person" to have to endure the wrath. Besides, most Pre-Tribbers would argue that the great multitude "beyond number" in Revelation 7 is Trib Saints being martyred. If that's true, then you have a group of God's people "beyond number" who are on the earth, enduring a time of God's wrath. This would seem to be a problem.
The thing is the 70th week is called the time of Jacob's trouble and that there will be distress happening that has never been seen before, nor ever will be again. I'm not sure that means "God's Wrath". Being martyred for their faith also to me does not seem to equal having endured God's Wrath.
John 3:36 Tells us that the one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but it is the one who does not that the wrath of God abides upon.

It is at the 6th seal that men want to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. The great day of wrath has come. So, was only the day the 6th seal was opened the only day of the Lamb's wrath? If so, there are already those martyred who are under the alter in heaven at the 5th seal before the day of Wrath. Rev. 6

Enduring a "time of Wrath" doesn't always equate to God's Wrath being upon them personally I would not think. Do you?

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:31 AM
Well, Scripture says that God sends a delusion afterward that all left will believe a lie. Also, if the man of sin comes on the scene chances are any who do believe, will be martyred early. Revelation gives plenty about the character of those left. They want to hide from God, they will not give Him glory. Not to mention, the billions who die almost as soon as the judgments begin to fall. Something tells me there will not be many who will believe. Regardless we know some will also.We are told mostly about those who are rescued supernaturally, and those who are sealed (144.000) but even they will be martyred.

I would agree with that not many are saved during the tribulation. I know there are the 144,000 who get saved but other than that I do not know. I do not believe the great multitude in Rev. 7 is talking about "trib saints" but is talking everybody who has come to Jesus Christ since the day of Pentecost.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:48 AM
I would agree with that not many are saved during the tribulation. I know there are the 144,000 who get saved but other than that I do not know. I don't know about the great multitude but reading about the judgments, how many are killed and what the unbelievers say plus the delusion, etc, etc it is just hard to see how lots of people get saved, yet we do have the 2 witnesses' + the 144,000 who are witnesses also.
In this age, we have us, the Church being witnesses for Christ but after the Church is gone and the delusion sent well....you get the picture. That is why we have to believe 2 Corthinians 6:2 that says "Now is the day of salvation". It's so foolish for anyone to wait for another day.

Even if I didn't believe in the Pre-trib rapture, if one has witnessed for Christ, do we not know how hard it is to convince someone to consider Christ? Think how hard it would be when all the judgments are falling upon the earth, plus either way, if you are a believer during the Trib you can almost bet you'd be martyred. The 2 witnesses will be, we see the picture of those martyred at the alter, and hear Revelation which says Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!, so they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them, plus the ones who refuse the mark of the beast.

Marc B
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:06 AM
The problem here is with the mistaken assumption that all unbelievers are automatically condemned. Jesus’ exact words in Matthew 25:32 are “all nations” will be gathered before Him. Most people take this to mean every single person on the entire planet Earth will stand before Jesus at this point to receive their judgment of either being welcomed into the Kingdom or being cast out into “outer darkness” and “gnashing of teeth”. But what does “all nations” mean? Is there any indication in the Bible about exactly what “all nations” actually means? There are numerous uses throughout the Bible of the phrase “all nations.” Zechariah 14:2 says “I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it.” Using the everyone-in-the-world understanding of the same words in Matthew 25, this would mean that every man, woman, and child on the earth will be gathered together to “fight” against Jerusalem at Armageddon. Is that really what we wish to assert? In addition, look at the following quotes:

Isaiah 2:2-4 – “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

Who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Many people would quickly argue (as I once did) that this is talking about unbelievers who are born later on during the already-established Kingdom. But then, where did the “swords” and “spears” come from? If all weapons are banned during the Millennial Kingdom, why are these people having to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”? They have apparently entered the Kingdom with this equipment and are now having to destroy it.

Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.”

Again, who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Do we wish to suggest that gentile believers will be Israel’s slaves during the Millennium?

One more:

Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.”

Who are these survivors?

I agree with you here. All the nations of the earth fighting is not unusual in a military context which I believe this is, but not every human being gathering at Jerusalem which is physically impossible unless the population of the planet is drastically cut down to a fraction of today's population beforehand. The bible says a third of mankind will be killed, that still leaves 4 billion alive by today's count. After all the whole thing comes to a head in WW3 in the valley of Meggiddo which certainly is too small to hold billions. Could you imagine parents dragging their kids off to Jerusalem with them to fight in a war? I mean really. Logically speaking, when Jesus returns and takes over what other possible scenario could there be for disarming the nations of the world biblically speaking? I mean pretty much every country on earth today has military capability and armament. They're going to have to be gotten rid of somehow. Book of Isaiah also tells a great deal about the millenium. It even says the sun will shine 7 times brighter than it does now and the moon will be as bright as the sun is today. How cool is that. :cool:

Marc B
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:15 AM
This is what I have been talking about in another thread.

Who are the nations of people in the Millennium who are in all the 4 corners of the Earth, whose number is as the sand of the sea? These nations of people are going to join Satan's army when he is set free from his prison at the end of the Millennium, and are going to attack the Saints, and then God is going to send fire down to devour Satan and his army of the nations. All of this can be read about in Revelation 20:7-9.

Obviously, not all of the unbelievers are destroyed before the Millennium, or there would not be nations of people from the 4 corners of the Earth to join Satan in one last battle with the saints and God.

Also, not everybody from these nations join Satan's army, because in Revelation chapters 21 and 22, Christ and the saints will be ruling over the nations, and only the saints can enter into the Holy City, while the nations who are not the saints, can bring glory and honor to the Holy City. So there will be nations of people who are not the saints, living in New Heaven and New Earth, kept alive by the tree of life in Revelation 22:2, since they do not have everlasting transfigured resurrection bodies like the saints have.

So you think Rev 21 and 22 refer to the millenium itself even though these events happen after the millenium according to the chronology of events depicted?

Marc B
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:20 AM
How do we know this is referring to the 1000 yr period? I don't see that in context.

Read the whole chapter of Isaiah 14, then it will make more sense.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:21 AM
I have not seen anything in scripture that says it is not a rapture unless the person is changed first. I am going by the Greek words used to describe both situations. "Harpazo" is used in both scenarios.Oh, OK, I was not aware of "harpazo" being in the Philip/Eunich story. That is actually very interesting. It also means you're probably right, too. Thanks for showing that to me, this could actually have some very interesting implications down the road. :thumbsup:

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:30 AM
The thing is the 70th week is called the time of Jacob's trouble and that there will be distress happening that has never been seen before, nor ever will be again. I'm not sure that means "God's Wrath".Now we're getting somewhere. :yes:
Being martyred for their faith also to me does not seem to equal having endured God's Wrath.I can agree with that completely. :yes:
John 3:36 Tells us that the one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but it is the one who does not that the wrath of God abides upon.That's right. :thumbsup:
It is at the 6th seal that men want to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. The great day of wrath has come.Now this is how to let the Bible interpret itself. :thumbsup:
So, was only the day the 6th seal was opened the only day of the Lamb's wrath?That is the starting point of it, yes indeed. :yes:
If so, there are already those martyred who are under the alter in heaven at the 5th seal before the day of Wrath. Rev. 6That's exactly right.
Enduring a "time of Wrath" doesn't always equate to God's Wrath being upon them personally I would not think. Do you?I would agree completely. That is a very important point, because the argument is often presented that the entire seven-year Tribulation is "God's wrath", so the Church has to be gone before it begins, yet, as we've been discussing, this does not explain how then, the Trib Saints, who are also God's people can be expected to endure the wrath of God while the Church Saints are spirited away. That's a serious inconsistency in the scenario.

In recognizing that the Sixth Seal is when God's wrath begins (or is about to begin, perhaps), you are onto a very important detail in figuring out the sequence of events in Revelation as well as where to place the Rapture along the timeline.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:35 AM
I would agree with that not many are saved during the tribulation.
it is just hard to see how lots of people get savedBut even if only one person were to be saved, you still have the problem of that person enduring God's wrath, if the entire Tribulation is really God's wrath.
Even if I didn't believe in the Pre-trib rapture, if one has witnessed for Christ, do we not know how hard it is to convince someone to consider Christ? Think how hard it would be when all the judgments are falling upon the earth, plus either way, if you are a believer during the Trib you can almost bet you'd be martyred. The 2 witnesses will be, we see the picture of those martyred at the alter, and hear Revelation which says Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!, so they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them, plus the ones who refuse the mark of the beast.At the same time, seeing the predictions of Revelation coming true before somebody's eyes would sometimes be a really big attention-getter. Some will be open-minded enough to see a big enough picture to see beyond into their eternal destiny.

Diggindeeper
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:41 AM
Well, I forgot to put that part in. There is really no where that says, after the Church is caught up to Christ that the 70th immediately begins. It only describes that the man of lawless is revealed afterward but doesn't give a time frame for the between there either.


Well, Scripture says that God sends a delusion afterward that all left will believe a lie. Also, if the man of sin comes on the scene chances are any who do believe, will be martyred early. Revelation gives plenty about the character of those left. They want to hide from God, they will not give Him glory. Not to mention, the billions who die almost as soon as the judgments begin to fall. Something tells me there will not be many who will believe. Regardless we know some will also.We are told mostly about those who are rescued supernaturally, and those who are sealed (144.000) but even they will be martyred.

I think we need to consider this scripture passage, to see when the "man of sin" is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now, we must ask, What is Paul talking about here in verse #1? Clearly, he is talking about when he returns and we are gathered together with him. Or to many, that is the "rapture."

Verse #3- "That day" (that some call the Rapture) will not happen until 2 things happen first:
A) There must first come a falling away!
B) And...then man of sin will be revealed!

No mention of anyone taken out (RAPTURED) first....You see, that day CANNOT happen until the other two things happen FIRST, Paul said.

After seeing, really seeing, the above sequence of events, (First, the falling away. Second, the man of sin is revealed...and we are not taken or changed till they do happen ) I was forced to ask myself this question:

Is it possible the rapture theory is the strong delusion?

WE are still here, it seems, for the falling away, and when the "man of sin" is revealed! And no mention here that the dead in Christ have come up, out of their graves, yet either.

It only tells us that "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Verse 12- All are damned who have not believed and/or took pleasure in unrighteousness. Once we ARE taken to be with the Lord, the others left are damned.

No second chance in this scenario as presented by Paul.....

Marc B
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:49 AM
What he said.....:agree:

Just to add a point, those who are damned are those who refuse to repent and reject the gospel.

Lamplighter
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:57 AM
So you think Rev 21 and 22 refer to the millenium itself even though these events happen after the millenium according to the chronology of events depicted?

No.

I never said they did. Or are you just asking me if I think they do? Thanks.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:00 AM
At the same time, seeing the predictions of Revelation coming true before somebody's eyes would sometimes be a really big attention-getter. Some will be open-minded enough to see a big enough picture to see beyond into their eternal destiny.
That is the other side of the thing and yet Revelation shows people who don't believe, rebellious people getting more and more so, not repentant.

quiet dove
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:03 AM
If we consider what has happened up to the sixth seal. It really is not so different than what believers and unbeliever sometimes endure now, only on a lesser scale, and it is not necessarily the "wrath" of God. At present we have: deception, war, famine, and death. Not to mention the persecution of saints in many countries.

The difference thus far, with the seals, is these things become world wide, and are more intense. And we know by the fifth seal, believers are being killed. And it is also clear that their number, the ones under the altar, is not yet complete, and there is no indication it is complete by the sixth or seventh seal either.

Everyone on the earth at the time of the rapture, had a choice not to be here during that time. It is also true, for everyone of us, that we are forgiven, but we also suffer the consequences of our decisions.

And simply put, the trib saints being on the earth when God's wrath is pour out on those who have rejected Christ is not a deciding factor in the timing of the rapture. The Church, the Bride of Christ, is clearly taught we are not subject to God's wrath. Those saints prior to Christ death and resurrection and those after the rapture will be saved by Christ atoning blood, but may not necessarily be part of "the Bride". There are guest at the wedding and

Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessedare those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

Brides are not invited to their own wedding supper, the guest are.

And if we say it is not fair, some are persecuted and some are not, well, take that complaint to God, because that is how it has been through out history. No, we do not understand, but that does not make it not so.

And persecution is not God's wrath. If it was/is, then every saint ever killed for not denying Christ, then God was the one trying to get them to deny Him if the persecution was God's wrath. And the GT being Satan's wrath is clearly refutted in many passages of Revelation, plus many OT passages where it states God will punish the nations.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:10 AM
If we consider what has happened up to the sixth seal. It really is not so different than what believers and unbeliever sometimes endure now, only on a lesser scale, and it is not necessarily the "wrath" of God. At present we have: deception, war, famine, and death. Not to mention the persecution of saints in many countries.

The difference thus far, with the seals, is these things become world wide, and are more intense. And we know by the fifth seal, believers are being killed. And it is also clear that their number, the ones under the altar, is not yet complete, and there is no indication it is complete by the sixth or seventh seal either.

Everyone on the earth at the time of the rapture, had a choice not to be here during that time. It is also true, for everyone of us, that we are forgiven, but we also suffer the consequences of our decisions.

And simply put, the trib saints being on the earth when God's wrath is pour out on those who have rejected Christ is not a deciding factor in the timing of the rapture. The Church, the Bride of Christ, is clearly taught we are not subject to God's wrath. Those saints prior to Christ death and resurrection and those after the rapture will be saved by Christ atoning blood, but may not necessarily be part of "the Bride". There are guest at the wedding and

Rev 19:9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessedare those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."

Brides are not invited to their own wedding supper, the guest are.

And if we say it is not fair, some are persecuted and some are not, well, take that complaint to God, because that is how it has been through out history. No, we do not understand, but that does not make it not so.

And persecution is not God's wrath. If it was/is, then every saint ever killed for not denying Christ, then God was the one trying to get them to deny Him if the persecution was God's wrath. And the GT being Satan's wrath is clearly refutted in many passages of Revelation, plus many OT passages where it states God will punish the nations.Fair enough. :) That brings up the next question - which parts of the Bible could a Trib Saint claim as applying to them? If they can't cling to the parts where they're not subject to the wrath of God, then which parts can they still claim?

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:14 AM
I think we need to consider this scripture passage, to see when the "man of sin" is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now, we must ask, What is Paul talking about here in verse #1? Clearly, he is talking about when he returns and we are gathered together with him. Or to many, that is the "rapture."

Verse #3- "That day" (that some call the Rapture) will not happen until 2 things happen first:
A) There must first come a falling away!
B) And...then man of sin will be revealed!

No mention of anyone taken out (RAPTURED) first....You see, that day CANNOT happen until the other two things happen FIRST, Paul said.

After seeing, really seeing, the above sequence of events, (First, the falling away. Second, the man of sin is revealed...and we are not taken or changed till they do happen ) I was forced to ask myself this question:

Is it possible the rapture theory is the strong delusion?

WE are still here, it seems, for the falling away, and when the "man of sin" is revealed! And no mention here that the dead in Christ have come up, out of their graves, yet either.

It only tells us that "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Verse 12- All are damned who have not believed and/or took pleasure in unrighteousness. Once we ARE taken to be with the Lord, the others left are damned.

No second chance in this scenario as presented by Paul.....
Heard this argument many times before, still the man of lawlessness is held back from being revealed until:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


As you know, pre-trib believes this means it is the Holy Spirit residing within the Church which is keeping him from being revealed. When the Church is taken out of the way (rapture) then he is revealed.

I see in Revelation after the 2cd coming, 2 resurrections, not a rapture. We have people in heaven at the altar but it doesn't have a mode of how they got there.
I do not see the Rapture at the 2cd coming of Christ to the earth. We are coming with Him then.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:29 AM
If we consider what has happened up to the sixth seal. It really is not so different than what believers and unbeliever sometimes endure now, only on a lesser scale, and it is not necessarily the "wrath" of God. At present we have: deception, war, famine, and death. Not to mention the persecution of saints in many countries.

The difference thus far, with the seals, is these things become world wide, and are more intense. And we know by the fifth seal, believers are being killed. And it is also clear that their number, the ones under the altar, is not yet complete, and there is no indication it is complete by the sixth or seventh seal either.

Everyone on the earth at the time of the rapture, had a choice not to be here during that time. It is also true, for everyone of us, that we are forgiven, but we also suffer the consequences of our decisions.


Thank you so much. That's where my thoughts were running and I couldn't quite put it in words as well as you have. I'll repeat again, Pre-trib believers almost always have to be dispensational too. We believe though that all are saints who believe, the Church in this age are somewhat different than the O.T saints. They were saved by faith in a coming redeemer, the Church is saved by faith in a redeemer Who has come and yet is still to come, the time of Jacob's trouble may possibly contain Gentiles who are saved by the witness of the 2 and the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. But the remnant of Israel (the elect) will finally recognise Jesus Christ was and IS their Messiah.
Well, anyone who is dispensationalist will know what I'm trying to say.

My heart's Desire
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:33 AM
Fair enough. :) That brings up the next question - which parts of the Bible could a Trib Saint claim as applying to them? If they can't cling to the parts where they're not subject to the wrath of God, then which parts can they still claim?
You know, That is a Good question. Can I sleep on it. hum of course lose my train of thought, but I do have to go to WORK tomorrow. :(
I praise God for my job but I'd honestly rather search His Word more! G'nite..

quiet dove
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:38 AM
Fair enough. :) That brings up the next question - which parts of the Bible could a Trib Saint claim as applying to them? If they can't cling to the parts where they're not subject to the wrath of God, then which parts can they still claim?

Salvation, resurrection, eternal life. I didn't mean the were subject to eternal judgment or anything like that. It also is not to say that God won't protect them from His wrath during that time, in some way. Some survive the trib so they had to have food, water, clothing and shelter from somewhere.

God kept Noah from the flood, He kept Lot from S & G, he protected Israelites while they were in Egypt. God works how He works and understanding or knowing why/how in our feeble finite ability isn't going to change it. Most come at pre trib and want to know why, well, beat me why. And it has nothing to do with me being pre trib. When I can understand the passages of Christ coming with His saints and His saints seeing Him coming as describing the same thing, then I won't be pre trib anymore. And since the dead in Christ rise, the living at the time are changed, and together they meet Him in the clouds, that event is not the same description of His saints seeing Him coming with His saints. And when I can understand how the Restrainer is removed and that the Restrainer is anyone but the Holy Spirit with in the Church because God nor the Holy Spirit will be removed from the scene.

Diggindeeper
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:38 AM
Yes, you are right. Those of us who used to see it that way know about trying to explain, too.

But I am not dispensationalist now. (As you've probably noticed. ;)) There is no difference now, between Jew and Gentile.

Judgment begins at the house of God...for both Jew AND Gentile. There are no more second chances. Like you said, NOW is the time of salvation....(I think it was you who said that.)

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:43 AM
You know, That is a Good question. Can I sleep on it. hum of course lose my train of thought, but I do have to go to WORK tomorrow. :(
I praise God for my job but I'd honestly rather search His Word more! G'nite..I'm always here, anytime you want. I'm like a bad penny. :D

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:46 AM
Salvation, resurrection, eternal life. I didn't mean the were subject to eternal judgment or anything like that. It also is not to say that God won't protect them from His wrath during that time, in some way. Some survive the trib so they had to have food, water, clothing and shelter from somewhere.

God kept Noah from the flood, He kept Lot from S & G, he protected Israelites while they were in Egypt. God works how He works and understanding or knowing why/how in our feeble finite ability isn't going to change it. Most come at pre trib and want to know why, well, beat me why. And it has nothing to do with me being pre trib. When I can understand the passages of Christ coming with His saints and His saints seeing Him coming as describing the same thing, then I won't be pre trib anymore. And since the dead in Christ rise, the living at the time are changed, and together they meet Him in the clouds, that event is not the same description of His saints seeing Him coming with His saints. And when I can understand how the Restrainer is removed and that the Restrainer is anyone but the Holy Spirit with in the Church because God nor the Holy Spirit will be removed from the scene.Well, we've both made our points, and I certainly respect that, but I thought it was hilarious as I was reading this how much it sound just like a classical Post-Tribber justifying the Church going through God's wrath. :lol:

quiet dove
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:59 AM
Yes, you are right. Those of us who used to see it that way know about trying to explain, too.

But I am not dispensationalist now. (As you've probably noticed. ;)) There is no difference now, between Jew and Gentile.

Judgment begins at the house of God...for both Jew AND Gentile. There are no more second chances. Like you said, NOW is the time of salvation....(I think it was you who said that.)

I have said that. And I agree there is not difference between Jew and Gentile, not within the Church. And if there is a difference between them outside of the Church, it is not in the way of salvation or that the gift fo salvation is equally offered.

But that has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture, nor does the judgment of God beginning with His own. And I have not said anything about second chances other than in the same way a lot of people have had more than one chance toaccept Christ, their are many out there who are saved who didn't say yes the first time they were asked. :hug:

wpm
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:01 AM
Actually, not quite, because Pre Trib sees the Church dispensation apart from the time periods of other saints. When the Church meets the Lord in the air and the time of Jacob's trouble begins, those who become believers in this period are sealed, or martyred or protected from the events in that time. If there is a pretrib rapture of the Church then there will be NO believers on earth at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. Our Church period is of GRACE. It will be different somewhat afterward as demonstrated at the sheep and goat judgment, in how believers treated the Jewish people. At that time, their works will demonstrate their faith.

There are plenty of believers coming out of the trib. Pretrib has a major difficulty with their reasoning on this.

Revelation 7:9-14
I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I believe this negates any need for the Pretrib rapture, although the fact this 7 yrs trib sandwiched between 2 Comings is not found anywhere in Scripture is argument enough. The important question must be answered by Pretrib for it me acceptable:

Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

quiet dove
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:02 AM
Well, we've both made our points, and I certainly respect that, but I thought it was hilarious as I was reading this how much it sound just like a classical Post-Tribber justifying the Church going through God's wrath. :lol:

The thing is, I get frustrated when I find myself trying to explain, not what I believe scripture says, but why God this or why God that. I have no idea why God purposes to do certain things this or that way. And just because I can't explain the why behind what I believe scripture says, makes it no more or no less accurate.

yoSAMite
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:45 AM
I asked
But doesn't Rev 6:17 say that God's wrath has come, as in past tense?


Literalist-Luke answered
Past tense would be something like "God's wrath came." "Has come" is present past tense.

So I headed on over to the Blue Letter Bible and this is what they say about the term "is come" in Rev 6:17

* The Second Aorist Active Indicative verb form occurs 2,138 times in the New Testament.

Tense: Second Aorist
The "second aorist" tense is identical in meaning and translation to the normal or "first" aorist tense. The only difference is in the form of spelling the words in Greek, and there is no effect upon English translation.

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.

Voice: Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action.

Mood: Indicative
The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:51 AM
The thing is, I get frustrated when I find myself trying to explain, not what I believe scripture says, but why God this or why God that. I have no idea why God purposes to do certain things this or that way. And just because I can't explain the why behind what I believe scripture says, makes it no more or no less accurate.I understand your point completely. :yes:

Veretax
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:30 PM
Greetings brethren.
I'm new here, but love the subject. Eschatology's always been fun.

Curious - If you harmonize Matt 24:31 with 1 Cor 15:52, doesn't any position requiring trumpets to blow after the last trumpet stand contrary to plain declarations of Scripture? Just checking.

Thanks for the opportunity to grow and share with you all.

As always, much love in Christ.



Trumpets are used for a lot of things in the bible. I've recently read some interesting details about this and the "day or hour not known" as being a reference to the 'feast of trumpets' which could be true. I don't claim a strong enough understanding of the OT Feasts yet to really say I believe it to be true, but the last trump reference I believe was written well before revelation, so you have to wonder what Paul is referring to.



Well, Scripture says that God sends a delusion afterward that all left will believe a lie. Also, if the man of sin comes on the scene chances are any who do believe, will be martyred early. Revelation gives plenty about the character of those left. They want to hide from God, they will not give Him glory. Not to mention, the billions who die almost as soon as the judgments begin to fall. Something tells me there will not be many who will believe. Regardless we know some will also.We are told mostly about those who are rescued supernaturally, and those who are sealed (144.000) but even they will be martyred.

Maybe my reading is incorrect, I'm willing to admit I'm not an expert on end times theology, but the last time I studied it some, I always saw it as the two witnesses came, and through then 144K jews also were saved and became witnesses, and that they are sealed and protected from what happened. (Unless I'm mis reading its only the 2 witnesses who are martyred), However I also believe IIRC that there was a great multitude without number who were saved through their ministry, (The outer court given to gentiles reference?) and that it may be those who are martyred. While the message of the Tribulation, the Time of Jacobs Trouble is specifically to Israel, I don't doubt that it will have power to bring even gentiles to salvataion in the Tribulation. The only thing not clear is how fast during the Tribulation these things will happen.


There are plenty of believers coming out of the trib. Pretrib has a major difficulty with their reasoning on this.

Revelation 7:9-14
I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I believe this negates any need for the Pretrib rapture, although the fact this 7 yrs trib sandwiched between 2 Comings is not found anywhere in Scripture is argument enough. The important question must be answered by Pretrib for it me acceptable:

Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?



Here's the thing, I've never seen the Rapture as Christ 'coming' to earth, so much as the Church (The Bride) meeting him in Heaven. (we can debate whether it is the first, second, or third heaven i suppose.), but I have never seen it as the 2nd Coming, as the 2nd Coming is when his feet touch and split the Mt of Olives. The problem here is that those who are pretrib see this 70th Week, 7 day tribulation as being a time prophesied specifically for Israel, not necessarily the Church. I wish I had time to find some of those verses to explain bettern, but this is my understanding. (and no before anyone asks, I'm not a dispensationalist.)

My heart's Desire
Nov 4th 2008, 06:38 AM
Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

If you can show me scripture in Revelation where a catching up of the living and the dead to meet Christ in the air is occurring at the time of the Resurrections, when the books are opened, or of where the dead and those alive rise to meet Him as he returns on the white horse to fight the battle of Armegeddon. For if the rapture happens at the 2cd coming then surely this would be it. ;)

Lamplighter
Nov 4th 2008, 07:03 AM
If you can show me scripture in Revelation where a catching up of the living and the dead to meet Christ in the air is occurring at the time of the Resurrections, when the books are opened, or of where the dead and those alive rise to meet Him as he returns on the white horse to fight the battle of Armegeddon. For if the rapture happens at the 2cd coming then surely this would be it. ;)

So true.

But you have to prove your case only, the other guys don't have to.

It's like the young earth vs old earth arguments.

The young earthers have to prove themselves, while the old earthers don't. They say they are correct, so prove them wrong. You can't prove a man wrong, who already thinks he is right.

Richard H
Nov 4th 2008, 03:04 PM
‘Bringing up an old point as I’ve not fully caught up yet…

Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Rev 6:15-17

As for this being “the day of wrath” – look at who is declaring it...
these are people who have no clue - except that some major trouble has befallen them.

They’re hardly experts on determining which is ‘the day of wrath’ and which is not.

Marc B
Nov 5th 2008, 04:49 AM
No.

I never said they did. Or are you just asking me if I think they do? Thanks.

Asking if you think they do.

Meto
Nov 5th 2008, 01:32 PM
:spin:
Some pretty passionate comments, thats for sure. But as for me, I'm definately a mid-tribber.
I believe the 7yr trib starts with the peace treaty with Israel. After that the anti-christ is given dictatorial authority for 42 months. This control will be over the industrialised nations at least. He will achieve this by completely reforming the financial system of the world. In the time of his prospering he will come against orthodox evangelicals because of our intolerance toward other religions claiming we are responsible for the past wars and ethnic hatred, based on our supposed intolerance.
Revelation Chpt 13:5-10.
The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to excercise his authority for 42 months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.( that places us inside the first 42mths) And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast - all whose names have not been witten in the book of life belonging to the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.
He who has an ear, let him hear
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go,
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed.( infering AC attack upon the saints)
This calls for patient endurance and faithfullness on the part of the saints.
I believe these trials last for the 42mths of the AC's total rule period.
In the 5th seal we see a parallel, Revelation chpt 6 v 11. The maryters in heaven ask the Lord how long must the actions of the enemy continue until they and those suffering on earth at that time are avenged. Until the inhahitants of the earth are judged.
This would imply the necessary removal of the suffering saints undergoing the mentioned persecutions. How long Oh God, before you remove them our fellow brothers, and start your judgements.
For me, its now easy to see how a rapture fits into Gods' plan of tribulation and judgement. This fits with 1 Thessalonians 4 13-18 As stated above not all will be killed or go into captivity, etc. But are taken up.
Therefore I definately see a mid trib rapture coming. We can't be here for the wrath of God, Christ took that upon himself for our sakes.
Jude v 14, states,"behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints. v 15 To execute judgement on all ..... We go to heaven to be able to come back with Jesus, not experiencing the last 42mths only the first 42 mths. That will be bad enough.
Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

God bless you all
From Aussie land.

Richard H
Nov 5th 2008, 04:01 PM
Welcome, Meto! :wave:

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 6th 2008, 03:19 PM
Hi Meto...;) Didn't know you were new to this board...

Welcome, Meto! :wave: