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kf4zmt
Oct 28th 2008, 02:20 AM
What is the difference (if any) between the soul and the spirit? What do the scriptures say?

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 28th 2008, 05:07 AM
Hello Kf4,

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

Body + breath of life = living soul
Correct me if I am wrong

Fareyewell

crossnote
Oct 28th 2008, 05:11 AM
What is the difference (if any) between the soul and the spirit? What do the scriptures say?

Sometimes Scriptures differentiate between the two and sometimes they are treated synonymously. Generally though, I like to go back to their first occurance in Genesis. Man was fashioned from the dust (body) and God breathed (spirit) into Adam. The interrelationship between the body and spirit I like to view as our soul...and man became a living soul (or being).

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Gen 2:7)

oops, forerunner posted while I was writing this.

kf4zmt
Oct 28th 2008, 01:06 PM
These answers seem reasonable and scriptural. But crossnote mentions that sometimes they are differentiated. When they are treated differently, does the Bible hint at what the difference is?

Toymom
Oct 28th 2008, 01:11 PM
They are two different things:

1 Thes. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

They can be divided:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

John146
Oct 28th 2008, 04:31 PM
Hello Kf4,

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

Body + breath of life = living soul
Correct me if I am wrong

FareyewellThis is not correct. Notice that Jesus commends His spirit to the Father at His death, but His body was dead. Just like Stephen did (Acts 7). Apart from the spirit, the body is dead. But the spirit is still alive even when the body is dead.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The body and the spirit are not inseparable as evidenced by Christ and Stephen giving up their spirits to heaven when they died. Same with the body and the soul (people can kill our bodies but not our souls) and the soul and the spirit (Heb 4:12).

legoman
Oct 28th 2008, 06:18 PM
They are 2 different things. As forerunner, said, body+spirit = soul.

God formed the man from the dust of the earth. However the man was not alive yet. God then breathed life into the man. God's "breath of life" is the spirit of man.

Gen 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Only with both body and spirit is anyone alive. It takes both to make a soul. A body without spirit is just a cadavre without life. Spirit needs a body to provide life. What is the soul? It is our essence, our consciousness, it is who we are.

Notice what happened when the flood came:

Gen 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.

Contrary to popular opinion, when someone dies, they are actually dead. They are not alive in some other location. Because of this the dead have no knowledge and are effectively unconscious or 'asleep'.

When death occurs, the body returns to where it came from (dust) and the spirit returns to where it came from (God). And the soul is now dead. (Fear him who can destroy the soul in gehenna,... the soul that sins dies, Ezek 18... etc).

However, the soul is not permanently lost. It will come into existence again when your spirit is reunited with a body. Only this time it won't be a physical body, it will be a new spiritual body. This will happen at the resurrection of the dead:

1 Cor 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Notice it is called the "resurrection of the dead". The people that are resurrected are really dead. They aren't alive awaiting to be "resurrected" alive in a different location.

Read through 1 Cor 15 for all the details. Couple of key points:
- We won't be raised in our old physical bodies. So no worries if grandma was cremated or uncle bob was sawed in half...

1 Cor 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

- We aren't immortal until the resurrection. Therefore when we die now, we are just that: dead.

1 Cor 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."


Legoman

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 28th 2008, 10:43 PM
Let me put it,

This way :]

God formed the man from the dust of the earth. However the man was not alive yet. . .

Gen 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground..

...A body without spirit is just a cadavre without life.http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/801/ofyxz3.jpg

At this point there is no power/electicity


Contrary to popular opinion, when someone dies, they are actually dead. They are not alive in some other location.[Immortality of the soul, is not it similar to that what the sepent said Eve in the garden?: Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:4,5.] Because of this the dead have no knowledge and are effectively unconscious or 'asleep'.http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/298/offtm2.jpg

For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:4-6.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.




...God then breathed life into the man. God's "breath of life" is the spirit of man.
....and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/3158/onnna1.jpg

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6.

Go well

Dragonfighter1
Oct 28th 2008, 11:18 PM
The International Standard Bible EncyclopediaSOUL sol (nephesh; psuche; Latin anima):
1. Shades of Meaning in the Old Testament:
(1) Soul, like spirit, has various shades of meaning in the Old Testament, which may be summarized as follows:
"Soul," "living being," "life," "self," "person," "desire," "appetite," "emotion" and "passion" (BDB under the word). In the first instance it meant that which breathes, and as such is distinguished from basar, "flesh" (Isaiah 10:18 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=isa+10:18); Deuteronomy 12:23 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=de+12:23)); from she'er, "the inner flesh," next the bones (Proverbs 11:17 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=pr+11:17), "his own flesh"); from beTen, "belly" (Psalms 31:10 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ps+31:10), "My soul and my belly are consumed with grief"), etc.
(2) As the life-breath, it departs at death (Genesis 35:18 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ge+35:18); Jeremiah 15:2 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=jer+15:2)). Hence, the desire among Old Testament saints to be delivered from Sheol (Psalms 16:10 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ps+16:10), "Thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol") and from shachath, "the pit" (Job 33:18 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=job+33:18), "He keepeth back his soul from the pit"; Isaiah 38:17 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=isa+38:17), "Thou hast .... delivered it (my soul) from the pit of corruption").
(3) By an easy transition the word comes to stand for the individual, personal life, the person, with two distinct shades of meaning which might best be indicated by the Latin anima and animus. As anima, "soul," the life inherent in the body, the animating principle in the blood is denoted (compare Deuteronomy 12:23,24 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=de+12:23,24), `Only be sure that thou eat not the blood:
for the blood is the soul; and thou shalt not eat the soul with the flesh'). As animus, "mind," the center of our mental activities and passivities is indicated. Thus we read of `a hungry soul' (Psalms 107:9 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ps+107:9)), `a weary soul' (Jeremiah 31:25 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=jer+31:25)), `a loathing soul' (Leviticus 26:11 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=le+26:11)), `a thirsty soul' (Psalms 42:2 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ps+42:2)), `a grieved soul' (Job 30:25 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=job+30:25)), `a loving soul' (Song of Solomon 1:7 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=so+1:7)), and many kindred expressions. Cremer has characterized this use of the word in a sentence: "Nephesh (soul) in man is the subject of personal life, whereof pneuma or ruach (spirit) is the principle" (Lexicon, under the word, 795).
(4) This individuality of man, however, may be denoted by pneuma as well, but with a distinction. Nephesh or "soul" can only denote the individual life with a material organization or body. Pneuma or "spirit" is not so restricted. Scripture speaks of "spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+12:23)), where there can be no thought of a material or physical or corporeal organization. They are "spiritual beings freed from the assaults and defilements of the flesh" (Delitzsch, in the place cited.). For an exceptional use of psuche in the same sense see Revelation 6:9 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=re+6:9); 20:4 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=re+20:4), and (irrespective of the meaning of Psalms 16:10 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ps+16:10)) Acts 2:27 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ac+2:27).
2. New Testament Distinctions:
(1) In the New Testament psuche appears under more or less similar conditions as in the Old Testament. The contrast here is as carefully maintained as there. It is used where pneuma would be out of place; and yet it seems at times to be employed where pneuma might have been substituted. Thus in John 19:30 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=joh+19:30) we read:
"Jesus gave up his pneuma" to the Father, and, in the same Gospel (John 10:15 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=joh+10:15)), Jesus gave up His "psuche for the sheep," and in Matthew 20:28 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=mt+20:28) He gave His psuche (not His pneuma) as a ransom--a difference which is characteristic. For the pneuma stands in quite a different relation to God from the psuche. The "spirit" (pneuma) is the outbreathing of God into the creature, the life-principle derived from God. The "sour" (psuche) is man's individual possession, that which distinguishes one man from another and from inanimate nature. The pneuma of Christ was surrendered to the Father in death; His psuche was surrendered, His individual life was given "a ransom for many." His life "was given for the sheep"
(2) This explains those expressions in the New Testament which bear on the salvation of the soul and its preservation in the regions of the dead. "Thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades" (the world of shades) (Acts 2:27 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ac+2:27)); "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil" (Romans 2:9 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ro+2:9)); "We are .... of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:39 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=heb+10:39)); "Receive ..... the implanted word, which is able to save your souls" (James 1:21 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=jas+1:21)).
The same or similar expressions may be met with in the Old Testament in reference to the soul. Thus in Psalms 49:8 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ps+49:8), the King James Version "The redemption of their soul is precious" and again:
"God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol" (Psalms 49:15 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ps+49:15)). Perhaps this may explain--at least this is Wendt's explanation--why even a corpse is called nephesh or soul in the Old Testament, because, in the region of the dead, the individuality is retained and, in a measure, separated from God (compare Haggai 2:13 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=hag+2:13); Leviticus 21:11 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=le+21:11)).
3. Oehler on Soul and Spirit:
The distinction between psuche and pneuma, or nephesh and ruach, to which reference has been made, may best be described in the words of Oehler (Old Testament Theology, I, 217):
"Man is not spirit, but has it: he is soul. .... In the soul, which sprang from the spirit, and exists continually through it, lies the individuality--in the case of man, his personality, his self, his ego." He draws attention to the words of Elihu in Job (33:4): `God's spirit made me,' the soul called into being; `and the breath of the Almighty animates me,' the soul kept in energy and strength, in continued existence, by the Almighty, into whose hands the inbreathed spirit is surrendered, when the soul departs or is taken from us (1 Kings 19:4 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=1ki+19:4)). Hence, according to Oehler the phrases naphshi ("my soul"), naphshekha ("thy soul") may be rendered in Latin egomet, tu ipse; but not ruchi ("my spirit"), ruchakha ("thy spirit")--soul standing for the whole person, as in Genesis 12:5 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ge+12:5); 17:14 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=ge+17:14); Ezekiel 18:4 (http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=eze+18:4), etc.

Veretax
Oct 30th 2008, 02:28 PM
I'm a trichotomist. I believe just as God is three persons, father, son, and spirit, so too are we composed of three parts.

These parts are the Flesh, Soul, and Spirit. (Comparable to Christ, Father, and Holy Spirit)

The flesh is the physical body, the blood and bones so to speak, the part that is moved by our urges and emotions, and largely responsible for our sin nature.

The Spirit is the portion of the body, which I believed died when Adam sinned in the Garden. The spirit is the portion of us that is able to commune and talk with God, this is why our spirit has to be renewed, and why the Holy Spirit comes within us at Salvataion, because we must be reborn in the Spirit.

The Soul is the essence of who we are, the personality, the mind, and the most eternal part. When we die physically I believe the flesh is separated from the soul, and spirit.

This is at least how I see it.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 30th 2008, 02:40 PM
I'm a trichotomist. I believe just as God is three persons, father, son, and spirit, so too are we composed of three parts.

These parts are the Flesh, Soul, and Spirit. (Comparable to Christ, Father, and Holy Spirit)

The flesh is the physical body, the blood and bones so to speak, the part that is moved by our urges and emotions, and largely responsible for our sin nature.

The Spirit is the portion of the body, which I believed died when Adam sinned in the Garden. The spirit is the portion of us that is able to commune and talk with God, this is why our spirit has to be renewed, and why the Holy Spirit comes within us at Salvataion, because we must be reborn in the Spirit.

The Soul is the essence of who we are, the personality, the mind, and the most eternal part. When we die physically I believe the flesh is separated from the soul, and spirit.

This is at least how I see it.

Rep points coming your way.. I was dreaming of this very thing as I slipped into slumber last night:
Adam the intellect/person/soul was given a spirit and a body. One to commune with God through, one to comune with the earth through. The spirit died and adam was left with the soul and the flesh only. If his flesh had died before he had had his spirit revived he would have been cut off from God, as he would have had neither vehicle (spirit or flesh) to house his soul/intellect/self/personality etc..

Great post dude, kudos on the way..

legoman
Oct 30th 2008, 03:49 PM
Rep points coming your way.. I was dreaming of this very thing as I slipped into slumber last night:
Adam the intellect/person/soul was given a spirit and a body. One to commune with God through, one to comune with the earth through. The spirit died and adam was left with the soul and the flesh only. If his flesh had died before he had had his sprit revived he would have been cut off from God, as he would have had neither vehicle (spirit or flesh) to house his sopul/intellect/self/personality etc..

Great post dude, kudos on the way..

When did Adam's spirit die?

My understanding is the spirit (God's breath of life) is needed for the body to live.

Therefore if his spirit "died" or left, Adam would be dead.

mcgyver
Oct 30th 2008, 05:21 PM
What is the difference (if any) between the soul and the spirit? What do the scriptures say?

You're getting a lot of good answers, although some may seem contradictory...so I thought that I'd throw in my 2 pennies. :)

There are two primary schools of theological thought; both can make a good case scripturally.

I (personally) think that this is one of those things that we will not fully understand until we stand in Glory in the presence of our Lord. :pp

The two schools of thought are:

That man exists as a dichotomy (2 part), with soul and spirit being one part and the body the other.

In short, this view says (basically...it's a lot more involved obviously) that both soul and spirit address the immaterial part of man, but in different aspects: soul referring to the immaterial part of man relating to man as a "living being"...and spirit referring to the immaterial part of man in his relationship with God; as dead (spirtually) or alive (spiritually).

The second school of thought is that man is a trichotomy (3 part) with body, soul, and spirit having an inter relationship that is an expression of the Triune nature of God as He has revealed Himself to us.

Just like the trinity, although the view of man as a trichotomy can be defined, it can not be fully expressed or "pictured" in an analogy.

I didn't want to confuse you...but the answer to your question is really going to be contingent on which view you hold...and I just wanted to make you aware that there are in fact to views on the matter. :)

Veretax
Oct 30th 2008, 05:44 PM
How about the triple point as an example. Picture a bottle of water. In that water is a single ice cube, and coincidentally there is some condensation in the bottle, the result of water Vapor.

Now compared to the Trinity:

Now, if we can reach into the bottle we could remove the hard ice (the flesh dies as in death), but the other two states of water could still be present).

Note that the Triple point is the temperature and pressure at which an element can exist both as a gas, liquid, and solid simultaneously. We have this pictured when Christ is baptized, he comes out of the water, the spirit descends as a dove, and the Father was there speaking.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 30th 2008, 07:27 PM
When did Adam's spirit die?

My understanding is the spirit (God's breath of life) is needed for the body to live.

Therefore if his spirit "died" or left, Adam would be dead.

When God said: "if you eat of the fruit of the tree of life you shall surely die" He was not lying of course... But Physically Adam did not die so something else must have died! (The spirit, else God lied.)

Now God did provide a way for the spirit to be rejuvinated/reborn etc.. but Since God cannot lie Adam lost his spiritual life and was left with the physical only...
that is not to say Adam was completely disconnected from his dead spirit...

the reason is found in the definition of the word death (Greek THANATOS not sure of the Hebrew), which does not mean death as we know it usually, it means separated, cut off from, isolated from...
Poor illustration, but functional is: when kids send a class mate to Coventry (as they say in England) they completely ignore him, dont respond to him cut him out off all conversation etc...

This is the death that occured with adams spirit.. God said he would die/be cut off/separated from God, and indeed he was.

Further, I think it is truly difficult to explain what we never truly can understand.. I stand by my earlier explanation in the sense that since Adam was cut off, his spirit was paralysed in a sense, dead, atrophied, of little viable use of any at all.
Adam became then only soul and flesh. Now, animals do not have the spirit in them... Never have- yet they breath. Adam could continue to breath until his body wore out. His spirit was not needed to breath. Gods spirit was needed at the origination of live to create it certainly, but beyond that part of the discussion I think we will get off thread...

Sorry if this is long winded...

tell me your thoughts..
DF1

Lamplighter
Oct 30th 2008, 07:51 PM
They are 2 different things. As forerunner, said, body+spirit = soul.

God formed the man from the dust of the earth. However the man was not alive yet. God then breathed life into the man. God's "breath of life" is the spirit of man.

Gen 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Only with both body and spirit is anyone alive. It takes both to make a soul. A body without spirit is just a cadavre without life. Spirit needs a body to provide life. What is the soul? It is our essence, our consciousness, it is who we are.

Notice what happened when the flood came:

Gen 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.


Just to add to this.

Read 1 Peter 3:19-20.

Peter calls Demons spirits, and Humans souls. This is because Demons don't have a body spirit union, which=soul. Only Humans do.

David Taylor
Oct 30th 2008, 08:04 PM
Just to add to this.

Read 1 Peter 3:19-20.

Peter calls Demons spirits, and Humans souls. This is because Demons don't have a body spirit union, which=soul. Only Humans do.

What about verses in the Bible when the Lord God speaks about His own soul? We know that God is a Spirit.....

Leviticus 26:11 "And I set my tabernacle among you: and My Soul shall not abhor you."


That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Behold My servant, whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom My Soul is well pleased: I will put My spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles."

Spirit and Soul are used interchangeable throughout the Bible.

Spirit always refers to the immaterial aspect of a person.

Soul can also refer to one of three things however:


the immaterial aspect of a person; or
the body; or
the soul/body union.

'Soul' is a much more generic word; so its context is important.

John146
Oct 30th 2008, 08:09 PM
When did Adam's spirit die?

My understanding is the spirit (God's breath of life) is needed for the body to live.

Therefore if his spirit "died" or left, Adam would be dead.His spirit became dead in trespasses and sins. It doesn't mean it stopped existing.

Lamplighter
Oct 30th 2008, 08:12 PM
'Soul' is a much more generic word; so its context is important.

I agree.

But since Christ is God, God has a body/soul union.

Still, context is the key to understanding language and it's proper usage.

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 30th 2008, 09:13 PM
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:15-18.

Dragonfighter1
Oct 30th 2008, 09:52 PM
An Absolute fact....
Hebrews 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=4&verse=12&version=31&context=verse)
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; judging the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

So unless we can compare this with another verse that explains in more detail some other facet of truth, hitherto masked from us, we must accept that they are NOT the same.

flybaby
Oct 30th 2008, 09:58 PM
The way I have come to understand it through my Pastor is this:

The Spirit is the everlasting part of us that will live somewhere forever, whether that be Heaven of Hell. This is the part that can be saved.

Our soul, however, is our mind, will and emotions. Our soul is what requires progressive sanctification because it is not a rejuvinated part of us, like our body is not.

I picture it as this, the spirit is the yolk inside the egg, the soul is the egg whites, if you allow God to break your Spirit, then that part of you will mix in with your soul and you will be able to do things God's way.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but it makes sense to me.

Lamplighter
Oct 30th 2008, 10:05 PM
The way I have come to understand it through my Pastor is this:

The Spirit is the everlasting part of us that will live somewhere forever, whether that be Heaven of Hell. This is the part that can be saved.

Our soul, however, is our mind, will and emotions. Our soul is what requires progressive sanctification because it is not a rejuvinated part of us, like our body is not.


Both the spirit and soul are intertwined in a human being, and both are saved from death, not just the spirit. This is what separates mankind from all of the rest of God's creation. The body/spirit/soul union. No other creation of God has all 3 of these things, save humanity.

legoman
Oct 31st 2008, 05:56 PM
When God said: "if you eat of the fruit of the tree of life you shall surely die" He was not lying of course... But Physically Adam did not die so something else must have died! (The spirit, else God lied.)



Hmm, I always thought this meant Adam would die eventually.

God: "If you eat from this one tree, you will die".

And did Adam die? Yes. Granted, not immediately. It took about 930 years, and then Adam finally died.

So God did not lie, adam did die.


I don't think a man's spirit can die and that man still be physically alive. The spirit we are talking about here is God's 'breath of life', which has a meaning of "breath or spirit of man" . All living beings must have this spirit in order to be alive.

This is something different than when we are talking about someone being "spiritually dead". A person who is "spiritually dead", still has spirit (breath of life), but he may not have the holy spirit or spiritual understanding.

The breath of life and the holy spirit are two completely different things I believe.

Legoman

Lamplighter
Nov 1st 2008, 10:38 PM
The breath of life and the holy spirit are two completely different things I believe.

Legoman

Correct. No man is born with the Holy Spirit in his heart and soul. He has to invite the Holy Spirit into his heart and soul. The Holy Spirit does not force himself on anybody.

Veretax
Nov 1st 2008, 10:39 PM
I believe that when Adam sinned he died spiritually, and at the same time his body began to die too.

Lamplighter
Nov 1st 2008, 10:57 PM
I believe that when Adam sinned he died spiritually, and at the same time his body began to die too.

The body/soul/spirit union God created for mankind was never meant to be rendered apart in the first place. Mankind was made immortal, and was never meant to die, and have this rendering od body/soul/spirit.

Sin causes the unnatural rending apart of the body/soul/spirit when a man dies. When a human being dies, an unnatural event takes place, the body/soul/spirit is torn apart. Christianity offers us the natural rending of our body/soul/spirit in the form of resurrection. What is a Christians blessed hope? Resurrection to meet our Lord Jesus Christ, that's what. Christianity offers us something no other religion can offers us. Resurrection, the conquering of death, Hell, and the grave, just as our Lord and Savior conquered them through his resurrection.

Veretax
Nov 2nd 2008, 11:56 AM
The body/soul/spirit union God created for mankind was never meant to be rendered apart in the first place. Mankind was made immortal, and was never meant to die, and have this rendering od body/soul/spirit.

Sin causes the unnatural rending apart of the body/soul/spirit when a man dies. When a human being dies, an unnatural event takes place, the body/soul/spirit is torn apart. Christianity offers us the natural rending of our body/soul/spirit in the form of resurrection. What is a Christians blessed hope? Resurrection to meet our Lord Jesus Christ, that's what. Christianity offers us something no other religion can offers us. Resurrection, the conquering of death, Hell, and the grave, just as our Lord and Savior conquered them through his resurrection.

There is one interesting caveat to the Trichotimist position. If we are created in all three parts as God was, then it does stand to reason that our Spirit which is dead to God, i perhaps not so much dead as a door nail as it is so separated from God that it is as if it does not exist.

Bladers
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:04 AM
Here is the breakdown.

There is three and they are different:

1) Body

2) Soul

3) Spirit


A) The spirit of man is where God moves, it is how God communicates with you.

Jesus said, " The spirit is willing but the flesh is not"

B) The soul is the mind, will, intellect, and emotion. It is where you think and so forth.

C) The body of course is your flesh, your dust.

Note: The soul reacts to the flesh, while your spirit(your inner man) reacts to GOD

WOW THATS POWERFUL.


Lets look at an animal, like a dog. They have a Body and they have a Soul. But they dont have a spirit, which means they cant live forever.
Because only the spirit lives forever!

wtj
Jan 21st 2009, 05:20 PM
God has 7 spirit and one soul

Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my SOUL is well pleased: I will put my SPIRIT upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. Matt. 12:18

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the SEVEN Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Rev. 3:1

We have one soul – the soul manifest forth the emotions

And it came to pass, as her SOUL was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. Gen. 35:18

Yet man can contain more then one spirit. The spirit empowers the soul.

Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matt. 12:45

Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Mark 5:3

Dragonfighter1
Jan 21st 2009, 07:09 PM
In this thread I have seen many references to the death of the spirit or the soul.
Most are referencing it as though death meant cessation of existence. That is not the correct interpretation at all. Death (greek-Thanatos) means separation. When God told Adam he would surely die he meant separated from God, which upon eating the Apple occurred. The spirit was separated from God and only the soul and the flesh were left. Neither of which is a good communication vehicle with God.... Upon the cross that communication vehicle the spirit was repaired (Never thought of Jesus as a telephone repair man did ya?) anyway, its repair is incomplete.. the spirit can communicate with God but it gets a lot of static from the flesh. The soul, attached as it is to the flesh and decieved by it constantly has difficullty hearing the guiding voice of the spirit because it is not yet perfected in us, is is in a semi paralysed state so to speak. Much like a paralytic who is healed has severely atrophied muscles until much painful therapy had been completed.. in our case that will be at the resurrection the therapy that it.
Until then we have all three:
the soul (our real self)
and its two vehicles of communication- the flesh for communicating with the physical realm (which is still condemned)
and the spirit for communicating with the spiritual world (still dead (paralysed0 if no salvation accepted or severely atrophied if we have accepted Christ as our saviour).

Remember death means separation, not ceasing to exist.

wtj
Jan 25th 2009, 08:58 PM
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th. 5:23

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb. 4:12

sheina maidle
Jan 25th 2009, 09:31 PM
From Willmington's Guide To The Bible by Dr. H. L. Willmington, pg. 672:



What is the soul? The nature of man’s soul, is, like the doctrine of the Trinity, a mystery which simply cannot be grasped by mortal mind. Only a fool would attempt a dogmatic answer to this question. The following statements are therefore but suggestions and not absolute answers. In the opinion of this writer it would seem the Bible indicates not so much that I have a soul, but rather I am a soul. I have a body and I have a spirit, but the soul is me. But again, who can be dogmatic here?


To me, this is a pretty reasonable answer. When God breathed the "breath of life" into man, man became a "living soul", not a living spirit!

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

coops
Jan 25th 2009, 11:37 PM
There has been some good information here. I have agreed with some and not with others. The disagreements though are seemingly very common. I have been surprised as I have explored this matter, with the lack of clear teaching that seems to exist about it in many churches.
My offer of summary of my position (Without going into a deep analysis) is:

When God breathed spirit into Adam at Creation, this made it possible for Adam (and human kind) to also have a soul (our mind/thoughts, will and emotions). So he was a complete triune person (body, spirit and soul). Adam was created (as our blueprint) to live in spirit lead communion with God (his spirit leading his body and soul). In this state, he was able to do the job that God gave him and rule over the earth under God.

When Satan deceived and Adam lost the plot, His and therefore our spirits died or became ineffective or disconnected from God and also from our soul and body. Therefore we lost our crown and gave it up to the devil who then became the "god of the world".

We are still triune beings in potential but our spirits are ineffective because we are spiritually dead in our inherited sin state. Because of this, the unsaved person is lead by his soul (mind, will and emotions) and a "slave to the flesh".

When we accept Christ as savior and Lord, he renews our spirit (spiritually born again) so that spirit can now be infront of our soul and body again and again we can live in spirit - with our spirits communicating with the Holy Spirit. In this way we can begin to be sanctified towards our soul and body being right with God also (renewing of the mind, death to the slavery of the flesh). In this we dethrown Satan from our lives. We get back what was originally created for us - the ability to connect with God in spirit and be directed by truth (Gods truth to us through Christ) rather than the devils deceptions.

It is important that we recognise that our spirit is different to our soul and body because it is our spirit that receives the most significant or deep wounds in life and this in turn effects our soul and body. It follows then that if we can receive healing through Christ to our spiritual wounds, we wllh then be able to receive fuller healing to our soul and body.

So the foundation to emotional healing (healing damage to the soul) our physical healing (healing damage to the body) is actually spiritual healing (healing damage to the spirit).

When Christ sent out his disciples, he repeated what God did to Adam in breathing spirit into man. He breathed on them to receive the Holy Spirit. They were able to receive the Holy Spirit because Christ was their Lord and therefore their spirits had been renewed/reborn and made able to receive the Holy Spirit. This was for them and is for us the qualification for being able to go out into the world as Christs disciples and do as he did.

This is my understanding of things

God bless

shepherdsword
Jan 26th 2009, 12:08 AM
One of the things that happen as we mature and grow in the Word of God is that it begins to divide asunder the soul from the spirit. This helps us to hear God's voice(from the spirit) and stop listening and reacting to our emotions(the soul). The KJV has the most accurate translation of the greek in the following verse. It might be translated differently if you use one NLT:

Hebrews4:
12For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

ross3421
Jan 26th 2009, 11:51 PM
What is the difference (if any) between the soul and the spirit? What do the scriptures say?

The body houses the soul and the soul houses the spirit.

ross3421
Jan 27th 2009, 01:09 AM
Where in scripture does it say our soul contains our emotions?

Dragonfighter1
Jan 27th 2009, 01:53 AM
The body houses the soul and the soul houses the spirit.
Scripture for that please?

Bernie
Jan 27th 2009, 02:39 AM
These answers seem reasonable and scriptural. But crossnote mentions that sometimes they are differentiated. When they are treated differently, does the Bible hint at what the difference is?
Because these terms are so often used interchangeably, I've found that in discussions about soul and spirit (or any of the incorporeal/ehtereal concepts) it's important to establish definitions early on. Willingness to adapt to another's terminology and definitions are crucial to meaningful dialog. My definition comes close to that of crossnote's, except instead of the word "being", I'd use "mind" to denote soul, which is the consciousness/personality of the individual.

1 Peter 5:2-3
Jan 27th 2009, 04:20 AM
Props Veretax on the triple point reference:idea:...I am a physics major myself, so I enjoy a good science analogy every now and then...:thumbsup:

CommanderRobey
Jan 27th 2009, 10:05 PM
From Willmington's Guide To The Bible by Dr. H. L. Willmington, pg. 672:



To me, this is a pretty reasonable answer. When God breathed the "breath of life" into man, man became a "living soul", not a living spirit!

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

I would agree with this statement. The soul and the spirit are separate. Man became a living soul as Genesis 2:7 clearly states. But man has a spirit residing in him


1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Obviously soul and spirit are separate. Another good verse to show this is Hebrews 4:12


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Bernie
Jan 28th 2009, 01:13 AM
I would agree with this statement. The soul and the spirit are separate. Man became a living soul as Genesis 2:7 clearly states. But man has a spirit residing in him

Obviously soul and spirit are separate. Another good verse to show this is Hebrews 4:12
To what degree would you apply a separation, Commander? Can soul survive apart from spirit, or spirit apart from soul? That the two present different concepts can be agreed upon, but too radical a separation may be problematic on a number of fronts. Christian thinkers have for centuries been at attempts to define the ethereal elements of humanity, with no clear formulation that satisfies all rational/theological/philosophical questions on the matter.

ross3421
Jan 28th 2009, 11:43 PM
Can soul survive apart from spirit,

In your opinion when one dies what happens to the soul and spirit?

Does the following verse give us a clue?

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The above verse is saying to fear "God" which can destroy both body and soul. Important to note that a soul can be destroyed. Note no mention of "spirit" in the verse as a spirit can not be destroyed but can either reside in heaven or hell but remains everlasting. Though souls as well are mentioned in both heaven and hell one difference is a soul can be destroyed but a spirit cannot.

We also see that it is "body and soul" not "soul and spirit" are being mentioned in conjunction. The verse of course speaks of the wicked which I believe the body and soul are never accompanied with an everlasting spirit (though at times could be indwelled with a demonic spirit). Which would suggest that man is formed as just body and soul and not given a spirit until being born again.

So to answer the question, pertaining to the wicked the soul always resides apart from a spirit (except a temporal demonic indwellment) and will do so upon death. As for the saved, once the body and soul receive a spirit the body seperates but the soul and spirit remain as one.

Again I see the soul housing the spirit.


Mark

sheina maidle
Jan 29th 2009, 04:43 AM
In your opinion when one dies what happens to the soul and spirit?

Does the following verse give us a clue?

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The above verse is saying to fear "God" which can destroy both body and soul. Important to note that a soul can be destroyed. Note no mention of "spirit" in the verse as a spirit can not be destroyed but can either reside in heaven or hell but remains everlasting. Though souls as well are mentioned in both heaven and hell one difference is a soul can be destroyed but a spirit cannot.

We also see that it is "body and soul" not "soul and spirit" are being mentioned in conjunction. The verse of course speaks of the wicked which I believe the body and soul are never accompanied with an everlasting spirit (though at times could be indwelled with a demonic spirit). Which would suggest that man is formed as just body and soul and not given a spirit until being born again.

So to answer the question, pertaining to the wicked the soul always resides apart from a spirit (except a temporal demonic indwellment) and will do so upon death. As for the saved, once the body and soul receive a spirit the body seperates but the soul and spirit remain as one.

Again I see the soul housing the spirit.


Mark
From "Things Hard To Be Understood" by David Cloud
(Matthew 10:28)

Things Hard to be Understood
Mt. 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” - Matthew 10:28

Those who deny the Bible doctrine of eternal torment misuse this verse to prove their false doctrine. They say, “See, God will destroy the soul and body in hell, and that means annihilation.” It is not for us to define Bible phrases as we please, though. We must allow the Lord Jesus Christ and the context of the Bible to define the phrase for us. It is obvious that Christ was not saying that the soul and body of the unsaved are annihilated in Hell, for that would contradict what He has told us in many other passages of Scripture (Matthew 25:46; Luke 16:22-26; Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10).

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Luke 16:22-26)

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

The Greek word translated “destroy” is also frequently translated “lose” (Mark 9:41; Luke 15:4,8) It is also translated “marred” (Mark 2:22). It does not refer to annihilation, but to severe punishment.

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. (Mark 9:41)

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? (Luke 15:4)

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. (Mark 2:22)

Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? (Luke 15:8)

The punishment of the unsaved is described as “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

A similar passage to Matthew 10:28 is Hebrews 2:14, which says Christ came to destroy the devil.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (Hebrews 2:14)

We know from Revelation 20:10 that the devil will be eternally tormented in the lake of fire; thus the destruction is not annihilation but severe and eternal conscious punishment.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
The body returns to dust at death. The soul does not die, nor is it annihilated. When a person dies, the soul of that person goes to be with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:1-6,8) if that person is saved. The souls of the lost go to hell and will be cast into the lake of fire forever (not annihilated) (Revelation 20:12-15; 21:8) at the Great White Throne Judgment.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:1-6, 8)

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

The spirit of man belongs to God and returns to God, whether he is saved or lost:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

ross3421
Feb 1st 2009, 10:27 PM
From "Things Hard To Be Understood" by David Cloud
(Matthew 10:28)

When a person dies, the soul of that person goes to be with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:1-6,8) if that person is saved.

I agree. However the verses you quoted speak of the spirit.


The souls of the lost go to hell and will be cast into the lake of fire forever (not annihilated) (Revelation 20:12-15; 21:8) at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


The spirit of man belongs to God and returns to God, whether he is saved or lost:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

I agree, however again you speak of the spirit. It seems that you view the spirit and soul inseperatable??? They are not the same.


Mark

sheina maidle
Feb 1st 2009, 10:50 PM
I agree. However the verses you quoted speak of the spirit.



Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



I agree, however again you speak of the spirit. It seems that you view the spirit and soul inseperatable??? They are not the same.


Mark
Spirit and soul are not the same. When God breathed into Adam (after He created him from the dust of the ground), Adam became a living soul, not spirit. Man is a living soul and has a spirit residing in him.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8)

The spirit of man returns to God Who gave it, while the body returns to the dust and the soul goes to either heaven (present with the Lord) or hell.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

The word "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 does not mean "annihilate". The Greek word translated “destroy” is also frequently translated “lose” (Mark 9:41; Luke 15:4, 8). It is also translated “marred” (Mark 2:22). It does not refer to annihilation, but to severe punishment. The punishment of the unsaved is described as “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. (Mark 9:41)

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? (Luke 15:4)

Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? (Luke 15:8)

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. (Mark 2:22)

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

The destruction is not annihilation but severe and eternal conscious punishment.