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Partaker of Christ
Oct 28th 2008, 02:26 PM
Matt 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

My prayer for Christians in America.

I deliberately say 'Christians in America', because I do not believe there is such a thing as 'American Christians' or any other type of Christian. There are only 'Christians' ....in America, or UK, or China etc.

My prayer is that you would prayerfully consider, not voting in this or any other election.

Your choice is a choice of the lesser evil, but you will still be choosing evil.

Jesus said to them:
John 8:23 He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus said to the Father:
John 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

John 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
John 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
John 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Jesus said to us:
John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Paul wrote:
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Peter wrote:
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.


*Please do not turn this into an electoral candidate debate, as I do not want this moving to the electoral forum.

matthew94
Oct 29th 2008, 08:19 AM
Just curious. Are you against Christians voting in all secular elections?

Partaker of Christ
Oct 29th 2008, 03:35 PM
Just curious. Are you against Christians voting in all secular elections?

Hi Matthew94!

Yes.
We are in the world, not of the world.

matthew94
Oct 29th 2008, 03:55 PM
Hi Matthew94!

Yes.
We are in the world, not of the world.

Don't you think that the concept of being 'IN' but not 'OF' the world has more to do with being in the world, but not sinful like the world? Is voting sinful? Since God has "determined the times set for" us "and the exact places where" we "should live," don't you think He knew that some of us would live in a democracies and republics? Since there is "there is no authority except that which God has established" shouldn't we accept that God sees a purpose in having democracies and republics on this earth?

If you are simply stating that we should remember that our primary citizenship is in heaven, then I agree. If you are simply stating that we shouldn't place our hope in national elections, then I agree. But if you are stating that we shouldn't have any involvement in the earthly nations God has placed us in, then I think you're quite wrong. Paul, for example, viewed himself as a citizen of heaven first and foremost, but that didn't stop him from using his Roman citizenship for his benefit.

markedward
Oct 29th 2008, 04:31 PM
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

If you're so adamant about not taking part "of" the world... do you pay taxes? Consistently, for you to claim that voting is "of" the world, then so is paying taxes to the very same people who were voted in... As matthew94 pointed out, the "not of the world" speaks of the sinfulness of the world... not the things of the world as a whole. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" as Jesus said, right? Meaning, if your government asks for taxes, pay taxes.

There is nothing morally wrong with voting.

You draw the card that even if we vote for the "lesser evil" that we're "still choosing evil". Wasn't it God who chose to use Cyrus? And Nebuchadnezzar? And so on and so on? God chose sinful people to carry out His will, so who are we, being sinful people, to claim we're not supposed to vote for people who are sinful, when we ourselves are sinful? We're not better than them.

If the individual chooses not to vote, that's up to them. It's their legal right to not vote, and there is no moral obligation for them to vote. But at the same time, you cannot tell people they shouldn't vote because they'd be voting for "evil". Ask Paul said, God is responsible for all governmental authorities: if He allowed them to exist, or even set them into motion to exist, and those authorities include a system of voting, then there's no reason (Biblical or otherwise) to claim we shouldn't vote.

This just sounds like a legalist type of view to me, using a guilt trip of "you're voting for evil" as the excuse.

Dani H
Oct 29th 2008, 05:53 PM
I think that it is very much scriptural to take part in the governmental process as it applies to the natural.

People like Joseph and Daniel, for example, were people raised up by God to be second in command to only the king. And they were not godly kings even though God certainly revealed Himself to them and used Daniel and Joseph to influence their lives, and make a difference. Then there are judges in the OT that were actually righteous, such as Deborah etc. that ruled the nation in wisdom and godliness.

If you're not partaking in your natural citizen rights, and involve yourself in what goes on around you, then you cannot complain when things go south. Things aren't going to just magically right themselves. God always uses people to make a difference.

Are you telling people not to vote for amendments and bills either? These help shape the laws of the land. Isn't it irresponsible to not partake in that? Why let the ungodly make all the decisions? Who is served by that? Not God, IMO.

dan
Oct 29th 2008, 06:01 PM
...I disagree.

IS 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Choose that which shows love for your neighbor. Vote for the candidate that will be best for your country and the world.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 30th 2008, 01:25 AM
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

If you're so adamant about not taking part "of" the world... do you pay taxes? Consistently, for you to claim that voting is "of" the world, then so is paying taxes to the very same people who were voted in... As matthew94 pointed out, the "not of the world" speaks of the sinfulness of the world... not the things of the world as a whole. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" as Jesus said, right? Meaning, if your government asks for taxes, pay taxes.

There is nothing morally wrong with voting.

You draw the card that even if we vote for the "lesser evil" that we're "still choosing evil". Wasn't it God who chose to use Cyrus? And Nebuchadnezzar? And so on and so on? God chose sinful people to carry out His will, so who are we, being sinful people, to claim we're not supposed to vote for people who are sinful, when we ourselves are sinful? We're not better than them.

If the individual chooses not to vote, that's up to them. It's their legal right to not vote, and there is no moral obligation for them to vote. But at the same time, you cannot tell people they shouldn't vote because they'd be voting for "evil". Ask Paul said, God is responsible for all governmental authorities: if He allowed them to exist, or even set them into motion to exist, and those authorities include a system of voting, then there's no reason (Biblical or otherwise) to claim we shouldn't vote.

This just sounds like a legalist type of view to me, using a guilt trip of "you're voting for evil" as the excuse.

Not legalist at all, just burdend.
When you vote for whoever you vote for, you will be endorsing all that they stand for.
Our work is to change peoples hearts with the Gospel.

There is a difference between "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" and voting for Caesar.

Paul wrote:
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Partaker of Christ
Oct 30th 2008, 01:38 AM
...I disagree.

IS 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Am I to vote for a politician, to work the works that the Church and I am called to do?
Will the politician give all he has to the poor, with unconditional love?

1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.


Choose that which shows love for your neighbor. Vote for the candidate that will be best for your country and the world.

The best candidate for my neighbour is Jesus Christ.

markedward
Oct 30th 2008, 01:39 AM
Ultimately, they boil down to the same thing...

Consistently, voting for someone who may do evil is only superficially different from paying that someone to do evil.

Let's put it into an analogous example:

You would say, "Prayerfully consider not voting for Candidate X, because he supports Topic Y."

Okay... so you wind up not voting for Candidate X, but he still reaches office, and he still supports Topic Y. The government that Candidate X runs asks you for tax money. You pay tax money. Oh, hey! That tax money that you just payed went right into a fund for supporting Topic Y!

I'm not saying this governmental system is perfect. But even voting for the "lesser evil" is better than voting for "greater evil". Not just as a "Christian", but as a human being you can at the least put the effort to deterring the "greater evil" by voting for the "lesser evil"... Either way, you're putting money into their funds in the end, so claiming that the morally righteous thing to do is to not vote you would consistently have to claim not to take part in any governmentally-related activities, including paying taxes. You might as well put the effort into making sure that the money you're giving the government is going to fund something with as little "evil" as you can. At least by voting for someone who is the "lesser evil" you can at least put the effort into getting your government to take a step in the right direction.

Butch5
Oct 30th 2008, 01:41 AM
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

If you're so adamant about not taking part "of" the world... do you pay taxes? Consistently, for you to claim that voting is "of" the world, then so is paying taxes to the very same people who were voted in... As matthew94 pointed out, the "not of the world" speaks of the sinfulness of the world... not the things of the world as a whole. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" as Jesus said, right? Meaning, if your government asks for taxes, pay taxes.

There is nothing morally wrong with voting.

You draw the card that even if we vote for the "lesser evil" that we're "still choosing evil". Wasn't it God who chose to use Cyrus? And Nebuchadnezzar? And so on and so on? God chose sinful people to carry out His will, so who are we, being sinful people, to claim we're not supposed to vote for people who are sinful, when we ourselves are sinful? We're not better than them.

If the individual chooses not to vote, that's up to them. It's their legal right to not vote, and there is no moral obligation for them to vote. But at the same time, you cannot tell people they shouldn't vote because they'd be voting for "evil". Ask Paul said, God is responsible for all governmental authorities: if He allowed them to exist, or even set them into motion to exist, and those authorities include a system of voting, then there's no reason (Biblical or otherwise) to claim we shouldn't vote.

This just sounds like a legalist type of view to me, using a guilt trip of "you're voting for evil" as the excuse.

What does the kingdom of light have to do with the kingdom of darkness?

If you are a citizen of England can you vote in America? No, If you are a citizen in the Kingdom of God??? As Jesus said we are not of this world. Jesus had no part in this world. Think about how much Jesus could have done if He had been king. Yet when they were going to make Him king by force he left. The early Christians would have no part in government,

markedward
Oct 30th 2008, 01:45 AM
What does the kingdom of light have to do with the kingdom of darkness?Considering Scripture says God (kingdom of light) is the one who is responsible for and establishes earthly governments and kings and such ("kingdom of darkness"...), who are we to say we're "better" than at least playing a part in those governments when God Himself is the one running them?


The early Christians would have no part in government,And yet, as pointed out already, Paul wasn't afraid to use his Imperial Roman citizenship (a governmental status) to advance the gospel.

Butch5
Oct 30th 2008, 01:48 AM
Considering Scripture says God (kingdom of light) is the one who is responsible for and establishes earthly governments and kings and such ("kingdom of darkness"...), who are we to say we're "better" than at least playing a part in those governments when God Himself is the one running them?



And yet, as pointed out already, Paul wasn't afraid to use his Imperial Roman citizenship (a governmental status) to advance the gospel.

Yes, God is the one running them, not us.

Paul may have use it to advance the gospel, are we voting to advance the gospel?

markedward
Oct 30th 2008, 03:40 AM
You never know; it very well could be.

What would you rather have? Leave voting to the immoral, so that they vote in immoral rulers and lawmakers? If a nation runs into the ground because of sin, I would find it perfectly justifiable to blame the Christians for their complacency; they'd essentially be ushering in a sinful government rather than doing what they could to deter or prevent one it. Meaning, it was the Christians' fault for such a government existing, because they didn't do anything to stop it from getting worse.

God's kingdom may be the "kingdom of heaven" (huh, weird how Christ said "the kingdom of heaven is within you" and that it wasn't "here" or "there"), but He appointed man to be the caretakers of the earth. Taking care of the earth can and does mean making rules, and regulating how man treats man. That's government. We're sinners, so the government that man comes up with may not always (and never will be) the ideal government, but it's certainly better than nothing.

Again appealing to Paul: he acknowledged his governmental status as being a citizen of the Roman Empire. To claim that not being "of" the world means not acknowledging governments is absurd, when at least one of the earliest Christians set an example to the opposite. Paul used his governmental status as a benefit to advancing the gospel and as a benefit to setting an example to other men. Paul was a citizen of the kingdom of heaven first, but after that he was a citizen of the empire of Rome. And he didn't try to hide this, he wasn't ashamed of it, and he certainly wasn't afraid to exercise his Roman Imperial rights.

Christians are not obligated to vote. But claiming that voting is morally wrong simply because the person you're voting in is a sinner is just wrong. If a Christian is voting, they should (in my opinion) vote in the trust that the person they vote for will be of the best benefit to God's will, to spreading the gospel, and to keeping mankind and the world cared for.

SIG
Oct 30th 2008, 04:53 AM
This is an issue I have always wrestled with. Exactly how political should I be?

How would Jesus vote? Would He vote at all?


And--paying taxes is mandated by law, voting is not.

365_days_gone
Oct 30th 2008, 05:03 AM
My prayer for Christians in America is for them to wake up and take down their corrupt government.:pp

apothanein kerdos
Oct 30th 2008, 06:04 AM
I think some legitimate issues have been put forth. After all, if a candidate supports something immoral and you vote for him, you are casting your support for that issue.

At the same time, I think it's a stretch to say it's wrong to vote. I think we have to look at each candidate and if one has issues you don't agree with, but aren't necessarily immoral and he would cause change in areas that are extremely important, I think you could vote for the candidate.

Partaker of Christ
Oct 30th 2008, 11:39 PM
Ultimately, they boil down to the same thing...

Consistently, voting for someone who may do evil is only superficially different from paying that someone to do evil.

Sorry Mark, but there is a BIG difference.

One is obeying governments, and according to scripture that is what we have to do.

The other is voting for them, and that is not scriptural.

If you vote, and whoever you vote for, you are giving your blessing to all that they represent.
Do you vote for [lets say] someone who is against same sex marriages, but who's policies are for making the 'rich' richer, and the 'poor' poorer.

If you were a Christian living in Iran, would you be voting for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad vs. some other?
Would you say that because you pay your taxes to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's government, you are essentially voting for them?

livingwaters
Oct 31st 2008, 12:58 AM
We are to be God's mouthpiece, hands, and feet....If we don't vote for stopping abortion, for stopping same sex marriages, or we doing what God said to do????

HE said spead the "good news!!!" So, to me that means voting against those sins that we can stop....If we vote against killing unborn babies, I think God would be pleased.(since "killing" is a no-no) If we vote against gay marriages, I think God would be pleased.(since homosexuality was an abomination to God) So, in essence, God gave us the priviledge to vote, since our Constitution was based on God, and the priviledge to keep prayer in schools, the priviledge to keep the 10 Commandments on federal and state and any other buildings they belonged. Those are still the Word of God...HE didn't change, HE won't change, and HE still feels the same as HE did yesterday, today and forever.....Amen

Don't let satan tell you these lies about not voting...he definately wants "his" people in office, don't you think!!!! So, who are you going to believe, the Word of God or satan. If we used the argument that you did, we would have to stay home and let others go to the store, the IRS office, or any everyday duties....The world is out there and we can only live for the Lord, and not worry about the "world.." Other than telling these lost folks about Jesus and loving them as we were commanded, there's not much else we can do, but put in the hands of our Father in Heaven.

That's my opinion of the voting issue. Amen:hug:

matthew94
Oct 31st 2008, 02:48 AM
If you vote, and whoever you vote for, you are giving your blessing to all that they represent.

Obviously if you believe that line, you are right not to vote! But that line is quite ridiculous in my opinion? Where did you hear it? Where did you learn it? Why do you believe it? It doesn't measure up.

Just because we vote for someone doesn't mean we are giving our blessing to everything they believe. That's like saying you endorse every behavior of your spouse or everything the pastor says at the church you attend. It's like saying you approve of everything done by the company that made every single product you buy. You signed up to be on this message board, eh? Do you endorse every view of every moderator?

I just don't see how your statement stands up to scrutiny.

Lamplighter
Oct 31st 2008, 03:03 AM
Obviously if you believe that line, you are right not to vote! But that line is quite ridiculous in my opinion? Where did you hear it? Where did you learn it? Why do you believe it? It doesn't measure up.

Just because we vote for someone doesn't mean we are giving our blessing to everything they believe. That's like saying you endorse every behavior of your spouse or everything the pastor says at the church you attend. It's like saying you approve of everything done by the company that made every single product you buy. You signed up to be on this message board, eh? Do you endorse every view of every moderator?

I just don't see how your statement stands up to scrutiny.

I agree.

If a person shops at any given retail outlet, and the owner of that retail outlet is committing adultery, do you support the man's adulterous lifestyle by shopping at his store? No rational person would say yes.

I don't vote, because I can't stand the federal government, but I do believe Christ and his 12 would have voted if their government officials would have been electable by a vote of the people.

I should probably vote, but I'm not going to in protest of the USA's Godless and socialist government. I can't endorse a political system that legalizes abortion, welfare, homosexual agendas, and supports antisemitism from the rest of the World.

SIG
Oct 31st 2008, 03:59 AM
How about all Christian voters cast a write-in ballot, and write in Jesus Christ?

Butch5
Oct 31st 2008, 04:03 AM
You never know; it very well could be.

What would you rather have? Leave voting to the immoral, so that they vote in immoral rulers and lawmakers? If a nation runs into the ground because of sin, I would find it perfectly justifiable to blame the Christians for their complacency; they'd essentially be ushering in a sinful government rather than doing what they could to deter or prevent one it. Meaning, it was the Christians' fault for such a government existing, because they didn't do anything to stop it from getting worse.

God's kingdom may be the "kingdom of heaven" (huh, weird how Christ said "the kingdom of heaven is within you" and that it wasn't "here" or "there"), but He appointed man to be the caretakers of the earth. Taking care of the earth can and does mean making rules, and regulating how man treats man. That's government. We're sinners, so the government that man comes up with may not always (and never will be) the ideal government, but it's certainly better than nothing.

Again appealing to Paul: he acknowledged his governmental status as being a citizen of the Roman Empire. To claim that not being "of" the world means not acknowledging governments is absurd, when at least one of the earliest Christians set an example to the opposite. Paul used his governmental status as a benefit to advancing the gospel and as a benefit to setting an example to other men. Paul was a citizen of the kingdom of heaven first, but after that he was a citizen of the empire of Rome. And he didn't try to hide this, he wasn't ashamed of it, and he certainly wasn't afraid to exercise his Roman Imperial rights.

Christians are not obligated to vote. But claiming that voting is morally wrong simply because the person you're voting in is a sinner is just wrong. If a Christian is voting, they should (in my opinion) vote in the trust that the person they vote for will be of the best benefit to God's will, to spreading the gospel, and to keeping mankind and the world cared for.

First, I didn't say voting was morally wrong. I asked what does the kingdom of light have to do with the kingdom of darkness. You appeal to Paul for His use of the Roman Government, I could appeal to Jesus who would not become an earthly king when He had every opportunity. When you are a citizen you belong to that country, if you are a citizen of the Kingdom of God then what do you have to do with the world? Jesus spoken several different times of being in the world but not of it.

Regarding the a sinful nation caused by Christians not voting, who is in control, voting Christians or God? Doesn't God have it within His power to put whoever He wants in office? Can't God make heathen men vote for a Godly candidate? You can vote if you like, I am just telling you how the early Christians understood the gospel regarding government.

Regarding Jesus' statement the Kingdom is within you, it was understood to mean that kingdom was within your grasp.

Alaska
Oct 31st 2008, 07:09 AM
How would Jesus vote? Would He vote at all?



Does anyone sincerely believe that if Jesus were here today he would vote for either Mc Cain or Obama?
He is the King of all eternity and why would he bother?
Picture this; Jesus standing in line waiting for his turn to go into the voting booth.
I think Paul would say, "how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?"

Are we not the body of Christ, which is a continuance of his presence on the earth now that he is gone?
Are not all things ours as the Apostle declares and that we are Christs?
He controls everything and we are in him, so why should we bother to vote other than leaning on our own understanding and losing sight that we are an independent greater separate sovereign nation than the one we live in, wherever that might be?

dan
Oct 31st 2008, 11:47 AM
One of the best arguments for voting is a part of the Bible that relates the use of the 'mark' on the hand or forehead.

Some argue that it is a spiritual mark assigned by God according to your actions.

If you help the beast by reasoning with others on his behalf you are assigned the 'mark' on the forehead because you have helped with your mind.

Perchance you give money to the cause of the beast? Then you would be assigned the 'mark' on the hand because you have helped the beast with the work of your hands.

Choosing what God would prefer is important, IMO.

Do not think of it as the lesser of two evils, rather, the greater of two goods. Look at the good that both candidates could cause and choose the best.

matthew94
Oct 31st 2008, 01:46 PM
The whole idea that if you vote in an earthly election you are somehow forgetting that you are in the Kingdom of God is quite absurd. Do SOME Christians put too much stock in the world and it's governments? Sure. But that's their own error. There is nothing illogical or wrong about being sold out for Jesus and still voting in an earthly election. It's not an either/or situation. It's a both/and.

Levin
Nov 1st 2008, 09:13 AM
He controls everything and we are in him, so why should we bother to vote other than leaning on our own understanding and losing sight that we are an independent greater separate sovereign nation than the one we live in, wherever that might be?

Sorry Alaska, but I whole heartily disagree. I don't want to demean you as a person, but for sake of argument let me apply your theory of sovereignty to other areas of faith and life:

-Evangelism: I guess we shouldn't evangelize anyone, since God "controls everything," and doesn't use us to do any of his work.

-Sanctification: I don't need to read my Bible everyday or pray to him and cultivate my relationship, because God is in control of my sanctification. It's all on him, so why should I try?

-Generosity: If God wants to feed and take of the poor, he's going to do it. I don't need to be giving; it's in God's hands.

I hope that you agree that this is ridiculous. I would say the same of your idea of the Christian role in government. If God wants to redeem our culture and our politics (and I believe he wants to) then why wouldn't he use the same tools (human beings) he uses in most other areas of ministry on this Earth?

Now for some cautions:

-Politics is a dirty, underhanded game. It is dangerous for us to think that any politicians are going to be honest or full of integrity.

-We should not attempt to make a Christian nation, but we should attempt to speak truth prophetically into the culture. Thus, we believe and assert that abortion is wrong, but we don't sacrifice any of our morals to end it or even work that hard to end it. The point is that it is wrong and we assert this truth. (1 Cor. 5:12-13)

Ugh. I hate politics, but I hate the way Christians have responded to politics even more.

Levin

Butch5
Nov 1st 2008, 10:36 PM
The whole idea that if you vote in an earthly election you are somehow forgetting that you are in the Kingdom of God is quite absurd. Do SOME Christians put too much stock in the world and it's governments? Sure. But that's their own error. There is nothing illogical or wrong about being sold out for Jesus and still voting in an earthly election. It's not an either/or situation. It's a both/and.

Well, the early Christians believed otherwise, as I said what does the kingdom of light have to do with the kingdom of darkness. Why should I try to control the things in the kingdom of darkness?

Lamplighter
Nov 1st 2008, 10:44 PM
Well, the early Christians believed otherwise, as I said what does the kingdom of light have to do with the kingdom of darkness. Why should I try to control the things in the kingdom of darkness?

Romans 13:1-3. Paul writes;

The government authorities that exist are appointed by God.

God and Christ, according to Paul, are in favor of voting.

I however, can't in good conscious, vote for wicked men.

Butch5
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:36 AM
Romans 13:1-3. Paul writes;

The government authorities that exist are appointed by God.

God and Christ, according to Paul, are in favor of voting.

I however, can't in good conscious, vote for wicked men.

The key words are "appointed by God"

Here's the thing, they didn't think that being involved with government was a problem in and of itself. The problem is how can a person be involve with government and still follow Jesus commands? For instance if a candidate supports abortion most Christians will not vote for them. However, what if this person supports, war, or capital punishment, what if this person is an adulterer or a liar. With the way politics are in this country can we honestly say that we are voting for someone who is living for God?

matthew94
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:42 AM
Well, the early Christians believed otherwise, as I said what does the kingdom of light have to do with the kingdom of darkness. Why should I try to control the things in the kingdom of darkness?

The early Christians didn't live in a republic or a democracy. So, to be frank, you have no idea what they would have done in such a situation as we are in.

We know they paid taxes. That is interacting with a worldly government. And we know they didn't forbid a convert from remaining in the military. They just didn't recommend it. And we know Paul used his Roman citizenship to his advantage.

Lamplighter
Nov 2nd 2008, 05:22 AM
You are correct. I believe If the 1st century Christians were living under our current 21st century USA governmental system, they would register to vote.

Would they vote for Obama or McCain? Who knows? I don't think either man is a Christian, even though both claim to be. But every presidential candidate in the USA claims to be Christian, it's the PC thing to say in order to get millions of Christian votes.

Butch5
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:39 PM
The early Christians didn't live in a republic or a democracy. So, to be frank, you have no idea what they would have done in such a situation as we are in.

We know they paid taxes. That is interacting with a worldly government. And we know they didn't forbid a convert from remaining in the military. They just didn't recommend it. And we know Paul used his Roman citizenship to his advantage.

I have no idea? They paid taxes because Jesus said render to Cesaer what is Cesaer's. They couldn't make a convert leave the military, however they did require that someone in the military vow not to kill. And they specifically did forbad anyone who was a Christian from joining the military. Also because Paul was a Roman citizen and used that to his advantage does not mean that he participated in the Roman government. Can you show an instance where Paul was a partaker in any official Roman business?

Butch5
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:46 PM
You are correct. I believe If the 1st century Christians were living under our current 21st century USA governmental system, they would register to vote.

Would they vote for Obama or McCain? Who knows? I don't think either man is a Christian, even though both claim to be. But every presidential candidate in the USA claims to be Christian, it's the PC thing to say in order to get millions of Christian votes.

With all due respect Lamplighter, it does not matter what we think. What matters is what the Scriptures say. I believed right along with you guys, I was there to vote for the candidate that supported pro life issues and all of the other Christian issues. However when I began looking at the early church and how they understood and taught the apostles teachings and how they used Scripture to support those teachings, I came to the understanding that what they said was indeed correct. Whether I agreed with them or not. So to be honest to the Scriptures I felt that I had to adopt their position since I was unable to prove their position wrong.

dan
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:35 AM
Well, the early Christians believed otherwise, as I said what does the kingdom of light have to do with the kingdom of darkness. Why should I try to control the things in the kingdom of darkness?

...Have been given a light:

MT 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.

MT 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
MT 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
MT 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:29 PM
The Lord has delivered us out of Egypt, so why go back there?

"For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them"

Why is it that, many want to believe that America is (or has to be) the greatest nation on earth?
Why is it that, many want to believe that America is (or has to be) the answer to many of the worlds problems?

Again I say, there is no such thing as American Christians, but there are Christians in America, who are strangers, and pilgrims.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The great nation on the earth today is The Body of Christ. A Royal Preisthood, and a Holy Nation.

Peter wrote:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Do we not have a King over us? The King of Kings!
So, why vote for a stranger over thee, who is not they brother?

Deu 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
Deu 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
Deu 17:16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.


The Lord said to Abraham:
Gen 12:2a And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

The Lord said to Moses of Israel:
Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Lev 20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spew you not out.
Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Lev 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.
Lev 20:26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Deu 4:4 But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day.
Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Deu 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;

Will you compromise some of His Laws and Statutes, when He clearly says that 'ALL' must be kept?

Will you fight evil with evil?

Emanate
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:55 PM
They couldn't make a convert leave the military, however they did require that someone in the military vow not to kill.


They did? I missed that one. Where is that Scripture?

Butch5
Nov 4th 2008, 03:23 AM
...Have been given a light:

MT 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops.

MT 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
MT 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
MT 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

What's your point Dan?

Butch5
Nov 4th 2008, 03:25 AM
They did? I missed that one. Where is that Scripture?

We are speaking of the early Christians.