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Gulah Papyrus
Oct 28th 2008, 06:00 PM
An 'all roads lead to God' close friend of mine asked me this question today and I want to give him a very solid answer:

. But what about those that didn't know or have the chance to know him? Would Jesus be upset that others would have found their way to God? Aren't we all his creatures?

The conversation leading up to this point had to do with him stating that many Christians believe that Christ isn't the only way. I explained that they aren't really 'Christian' by definition and that exclusivity is a large part of the Christian foundation etc. and this was his response.


I have a good idea of how to answer but it can never hurt to check with the experts!

Thanks in advance.

Firefighter
Oct 28th 2008, 06:22 PM
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

It really is that simple.

IF Christianity is a way, then it has to be the ONLY way, otherwise it is a lie.

I prefer to believe it is the ONLY way.

9Marksfan
Oct 28th 2008, 07:09 PM
An 'all roads lead to God' close friend of mine asked me this question today and I want to give him a very solid answer:

. But what about those that didn't know or have the chance to know him?

The passage in Romans 1 cited by Urban Missionary shows that everyone DOES have the chance to know Him - so that they are without excuse.


Would Jesus be upset that others would have found their way to God?

:confused There IS no other way to God than by Jesus!


Aren't we all his creatures?

Yes, but we're all children of wrath until we're saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:1-9)!

moonglow
Oct 28th 2008, 07:50 PM
Coffeecat had a thread like this on maturing in Christ a couple of months ago which I tried to find and can't...guess I am not putting in the right key words there...:rolleyes: I had alot of information on it though. This question comes up alot on the board.

First we know God puts the knowledge of Him in all of us:

Romans 1:18
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

The Indians knew who God was before the white men came with their bibles ...they called Him the Great White Spirit...which God is..a spirit...White for purity and Great.

John 4:24
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

They also knew who Jesus was too! God gave them visions of Him and of Christ...though they used different names, they were the same. I would give you a link to their site that explains this in depth but when I was trying to give it to coffeecat when I got on that site it was messed up and kept making my computer crash...froze up!

From the book White Man Walking:

A follower of Jesus was camping in the mountains of Tibet. A sunset, two Sherpa herdsmen appeared out of the mist, and approached him at the campfire. They wore woolen robes, with hoods, that partially obscured their dark, weathered faces. They said, "We have come a long way to get a word from you." After pondering for a moment how he might tell them about Jesus, the man of faith realized that these herdsmen would certainly understand sheep, so he began relating every Bible story he could remember that included shepherds and sheep.

He recited Psalm 23, the lesson about the one lost sheep, Jesus as the Good Shepherd, and other sheep stories. When he finished, the herdsmen bowed deeply and retreated into the darkness. The following morning in the pre-dawn mist, the shepherds reappeared. They approached the man of faith and said, "We discussed all through the night what you spoke about yesterday, and we have two very important messages in reply. The first is that we have decided to follow this God you call Jesus." Deeply moved, the man of faith then asked what the second message was. With eyes that danced with joy, the herdsmen said, "We have always known Him. We just didn't know His name!"

And of course the bible clearly says no one goes to the Father but by me...oops just saw Urban Missionary posted that verse and the other one I posted...lol...:rolleyes:


Aren't we all his creatures?

The bible tells us as you know..we were made in God's image...but not everyone is considered His child.

Romans 8
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”

John 8:43-45
43 Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! 44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me!

God bless

theBelovedDisciple
Oct 28th 2008, 07:57 PM
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

It really is that simple.

IF Christianity is a way, then it has to be the ONLY way, otherwise it is a lie.

I prefer to believe it is the ONLY way.


Excellent post.. and YES... Jesus is the Only Way...

No man comes to the Father but thru Him and by Him...

who? Jesus the Christ...

All of the 'other' so called 'messiahs'. or 'gods' .. are still in their 'graves'

The the Only True Living God has 'come out of the grave'... on that 3rd day.. He arose... proving that He has the keys to death, hell , and the grave.. and that He is the Author of Life itself...

Do you 'know' Him today?

Literalist-Luke
Oct 28th 2008, 09:16 PM
Notice in Romans Chapter 1 that God is holding everyone throughout history in the entire world responsible for rejecting Him:

Romans 1:19-20 – “...what may be known about God is plain to them [humankind in general], because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

Notice here that God is talking about a level of revelation that involves no Israel, no Mosaic sacrificial system, no Scriptures, and no Christ, only nature and the creation around us. God says we should know based only on His revelation of Himself in the creation around us. This is precisely the condition that existed up until Moses wrote the Pentateuch. And yet Paul is using it as a reason for God's condemnation of the lost AFTER the start of the “Church Age”. “...what may be known about God IS plain to them...” “...so that people ARE without excuse.”

Here’s why that’s a problem – traditional Dispensationalism has one phase of God’s revelation replacing the previous one, all going sequentially in order. This is why a lot of people believe that, today, unless you believe on the name “Jesus”, you are automatically condemned to hell, even if you've never even heard the name Jesus. Romans Chapter 1 directly contradicts this. Romans Chapter 1 suggests that we are only responsible for the level of revelation that we have been given. That being the case, the only logical conclusion is that God’s phases of revelation do not replace each other, but rather are added on top of each other, each one clarifying the previous and giving us a better understanding of the issues at hand.[/COLOR]

The highest level of revelation we have been given thus far is the combination of the completed 66 books of the Word of God along with the historical revelation of Christ Himself in the flesh when He visited the earth 2000 years ago. But that doesn't mean that everything else before that simply gets thrown out with the bathwater.

This is proof that it is indeed possible for God to deal with more than one group of people at a time. He is not restricted to dealing only with Israel or only with Gentiles.

I should also point out that this does not provide an “excuse” for us to not respond to Christ. We cannot say “Well, I don't want to respond to Christ, but I can agree that the world around me was definitely created by an intelligent being, so I'll just respond on that level.” Nope, sorry Charlie, you're still condemned, because Christ was revealed to you and you are responsible to respond to the revelation that you were given.

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 28th 2008, 11:19 PM
This is why a lot of people believe that, today, unless you believe on the name “Jesus”, you are automatically condemned to hell, even if you've never even heard the name Jesus. Romans Chapter 1 directly contradicts this. Romans Chapter 1 suggests that we are only responsible for the level of revelation that we have been given. That being the case, the only logical conclusion is that God’s phases of revelation do not replace each other, but rather are added on top of each other, each one clarifying the previous and giving us a better understanding of the issues at hand.

This is proof that it is indeed possible for God to deal with more than one group of people at a time. He is not restricted to dealing only with Israel or only with Gentiles.

I should also point out that this does not provide an “excuse” for us to not respond to Christ. We cannot say “Well, I don't want to respond to Christ, but I can agree that the world around me was definitely created by an intelligent being, so I'll just respond on that level.” Nope, sorry Charlie, you're still condemned, because Christ was revealed to you and you are responsible to respond to the revelation that you were given.

Then what stops someone from claiming that other faiths or 'roads' are simply 'phases' on the way to the same 'light'?

Wouldn't this just mean that the only ones condemned are the ones who rejected Christ...by name? And what if they had heard the gospel but just weren't really paying attention?

I'm getting confused...which is a good thing...I think...

So in John 14:6 the 'me' Jesus is referencing isn't necessarily the person of Jesus, or the historical figure, but His spirit? If that's true, then all roads could lead to God...kinda...wait, what?:confused:lol:

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 28th 2008, 11:23 PM
Let's cut to the chase...what must one believe to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

ƒσяєяυииєя
Oct 29th 2008, 01:31 AM
what must one believe to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. Acts 16:29-33

Go well

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 29th 2008, 01:36 AM
What about those who did/do not know of Jesus Christ?

ForeRunner, I am interested in your answer but please read the entire thread so you know where we are at in the discussion.

Thanks.:D

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 01:51 AM
Then what stops someone from claiming that other faiths or 'roads' are simply 'phases' on the way to the same 'light'?

Wouldn't this just mean that the only ones condemned are the ones who rejected Christ...by name? And what if they had heard the gospel but just weren't really paying attention?

I'm getting confused...which is a good thing...I think...

So in John 14:6 the 'me' Jesus is referencing isn't necessarily the person of Jesus, or the historical figure, but His spirit? If that's true, then all roads could lead to God...kinda...wait, what?:confused:lol:The difference is that every other "religion" on the planet involves us earning the approval of whoever the relevant deity is through our own works. That's the key difference. We have to recognize that we can't make it on our own. The Old Testament saints had to recognize that, even though they didn't know the name "Jesus" like we do.

Today, we have the name "Jesus" that makes that realization on our part more clear and easier to come to. I would suspect, however, that for somebody who never had the opportunity to learn of the name "Jesus", God would know from their heart if they would have responded positively to Him.

And just to clarify, even for those who were/are not aware of His actual name or the details of His life on earth, nobody gets into Heaven without His death on that cross. Had He not gone through with what He did for us, every single person throughout all of history would be doomed, all the way from Adam to the end of the Millennium. Jesus is the key, even for those who didn't/dont' know His name.

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 29th 2008, 04:10 AM
Can someone who has never heard the name of Jesus have the Holy Spirit dwell in them?

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 09:18 AM
Today, we have the name "Jesus" that makes that realization on our part more clear and easier to come to.

Is that all you think we have - the "name Jesus" - is that all you think the NT constitutes - a new name for God?


I would suspect, however, that for somebody who never had the opportunity to learn of the name "Jesus", God would know from their heart if they would have responded positively to Him.

Do you have any scriptural backup for this view? Is God not powerful enough to send someone to these people with the gospel? And isn't the message of Rom 3 in particular that NO ONE seeks God - so He doesn't need to judge on the basis of how they WOULD have responded - He already knows that they WON'T respond, because they're dead in trespasses and sins!


And just to clarify, even for those who were/are not aware of His actual name or the details of His life on earth, nobody gets into Heaven without His death on that cross. Had He not gone through with what He did for us, every single person throughout all of history would be doomed, all the way from Adam to the end of the Millennium.

This of course is true - however........


Jesus is the key, even for those who didn't/dont' know His name.

THIS makes ALL missionary activity and consequently the Great Commission completely unnecessary. Believe it or not, you are advocating a kind of Hypercalvinism - and I don't know anyone on these Forums who holds to that.......

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 03:58 PM
Is that all you think we have - the "name Jesus" - is that all you think the NT constitutes - a new name for God?When I speak of somebody knowing the name of Jesus, I mean that they also know everything that goes with it - the totality of the New Testament. It is possible for somebody to understand solely from the Old Testament that an ultimate sacrifice by God on our behalf is necessary for us to receive salvation. But the New Testament states it quite plainly, explains its details, gives us the name of that sacrifice and tells us His life story. So naturally, somebody being given this additional information would have an easier time responding than somebody else who does not have such information.
Do you have any scriptural backup for this view?I already offered Romans 1:19-20 in post # 6.
Is God not powerful enough to send someone to these people with the gospel?Of course He is - but what if He doesn't? There are millions of people during the last 2000 years who have died without ever hearing the name Jesus or what He did for us. Are you assuming that they are automatically condemned to hell because they lived in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or will you recognize that Romans 1:19-20 allows for the possibility of responding to the Gospel on another level for somebody who never had the story of Jesus shared with them?
And isn't the message of Rom 3 in particular that NO ONE seeks God - so He doesn't need to judge on the basis of how they WOULD have responded - He already knows that they WON'T respond, because they're dead in trespasses and sins!Then how did you respond? You'll probably say somebody shared the Gospel with you. But just a moment ago, you said that nobody responds. I agree that nobody is capable of responding on our own, and that we can only respond as the Holy Spirit draws us, but what is to prevent Him from drawing somebody based on Romans 1:19-20?
This of course is true - however........Thank you.
THIS makes ALL missionary activity and consequently the Great Commission completely unnecessary. Believe it or not, you are advocating a kind of Hypercalvinism - and I don't know anyone on these Forums who holds to that.......That's funny, because I consider myself more of an Arminian. Of course witnessing and sharing the Gospel are critical. The world around us is full of lies and deceit concerning how to receive salvation. There is not one single religious belief anywhere in the world that I am aware of, other than Christianity, that teaches that the path to God was forged by God Himself. Every single religion I know of teaches that we have to forge our own path, which is a gospel of works. Most people will get inundated with that way of thinking and will go through life believing it to be true and will consequently miss out. We have to get the message out and counteract that way of thinking as much as possible, because the Gospel as revealed in the Creation will almost always get drowned out.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 29th 2008, 04:02 PM
Can someone who has never heard the name of Jesus have the Holy Spirit dwell in them?King David did.

Psalm 51:11 - "Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me."

How could David ask God to not take away His Spirit unless he already had the Spirit indwelling him?

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 29th 2008, 04:21 PM
The verses that stick out to me after some research are the following:

Romans 3:5-6 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

Romans 9:14-15 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

and especially

Romans 2:12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Also, very good point by Marksfan regarding the devaluation of missionary work if sinners don't NEED to know the Gospel to be saved.

Mans law states that if one steals, then he is a thief-Innocent until proven guilty, God's law says that one steals BECAUSE he is a thief- Guilty until made innocent.

Thanks for your help...I'm getting there.:)

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 10:46 PM
Mans law states that if one steals, then he is a thief-Innocent until proven guilty, God's law says that one steals BECAUSE he is a thief- Guilty until made innocent.

Love it!!!! Especially as I used to be a lawyer! :lol:

9Marksfan
Oct 29th 2008, 11:09 PM
When I speak of somebody knowing the name of Jesus, I mean that they also know everything that goes with it - the totality of the New Testament.

That's not what you said, though.


It is possible for somebody to understand solely from the Old Testament that an ultimate sacrifice by God on our behalf is necessary for us to receive salvation.

Agreed.


But the New Testament states it quite plainly, explains its details, gives us the name of that sacrifice and tells us His life story.

I really feel you are minimising the glory of the gospel - it's not just Jesus' "life story" that is recounted in the NT - it's the explanation of His DEATH AND RESURRECTION and all that they mean to us - and how we get right with God as a result that is the constant theme! THAT'S the gospel!


So naturally, somebody being given this additional information would have an easier time responding than somebody else who does not have such information.[quote]

I disagree. People love darkness rather than light - without the illumination of the Spirit, people will remain in their sins. But if they haven't even HEARD of Christ, how can they believe (Rom 10:14)?

[quote]I already offered Romans 1:19-20 in post # 6.

And I offer Rom 10:14. Rom 1:19-20 says that they are without excuse - but general revelation never saved anyone! People NEED to hear of Christ! That's what the Great Commission's about!


Of course He is - but what if He doesn't? There are millions of people during the last 2000 years who have died without ever hearing the name Jesus or what He did for us. Are you assuming that they are automatically condemned to hell because they lived in the wrong place at the wrong time?

No - because they suppressed the truth that they had in wickedness and loved darkness rather than whatever light they had.


Or will you recognize that Romans 1:19-20 allows for the possibility of responding to the Gospel on another level for somebody who never had the story of Jesus shared with them?

I don't see that anywhere in those verses.


Then how did you respond? You'll probably say somebody shared the Gospel with you. But just a moment ago, you said that nobody responds.

I said that no one SEEKS God - on their own. I'm sure people were praying for me - I can think of four at least - and God worked by His Spirit, convicting me of sin and opening the eyes of my understanding, showing me Christ and drawing me irresistibly to Him!


I agree that nobody is capable of responding on our own, and that we can only respond as the Holy Spirit draws us,

You've just answerd your own question!


but what is to prevent Him from drawing somebody based on Romans 1:19-20?

It's general revelation - like the Magi following the star, that will only take us so far - we need Scripture and the special revelation of Christ (the prophecy regarding Christ being born in Bethlehem, as far as the Magi were concerned) before we can find Christ.


That's funny, because I consider myself more of an Arminian.

I guessed as much. You know how Arminians accuse Calvinists of believing that people will be saved regardless, if they're predestined to be saved? Like "even if they don't hear the gospel"? That's what you seemt o be advocating. The Bible makes clear that we have to HEAR and BELIEVE the gospel - or we won't be saved.


Of course witnessing and sharing the Gospel are critical.

I agree - but if you believe that someone can be saved WITHOUT hearing the gospel, then why is it critical? It isn't really if they can be saved without hearing it!


The world around us is full of lies and deceit concerning how to receive salvation. There is not one single religious belief anywhere in the world that I am aware of, other than Christianity, that teaches that the path to God was forged by God Himself. Every single religion I know of teaches that we have to forge our own path, which is a gospel of works. Most people will get inundated with that way of thinking and will go through life believing it to be true and will consequently miss out. We have to get the message out and counteract that way of thinking as much as possible, because the Gospel as revealed in the Creation will almost always get drowned out.

But that's the thing - revelation of God in creation is NOT the gospel! It simply makes people without excuse! :giveup:

Gulah Papyrus
Oct 30th 2008, 07:53 AM
King David did.

Psalm 51:11 - "Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me."

How could David ask God to not take away His Spirit unless he already had the Spirit indwelling him?Then what is John 16 all about?

5 "But now I am going away to Him who sent Me, and not one of you asks Me, 'Where are You going? ' 6 Yet, because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth. It is for your benefit that I go away, because if I don't go away the Counselor will not come to you. If I go, I will send Him to you. 8 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 about sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 "I still have many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 Everything the Father has is Mine. This is why I told you that He takes from what is Mine and will declare it to you.

The Counselor is the Holy Spirit...right?:confused

Seems to me the Holy Spirit that David speaks of is not the same Holy Spirit? I KNOW that can't be right, but from John 16 it sounds sure sounds like The Counselor could not be released unto the Earth until Jesus' work(death, resurrection, ascention) here was complete and the sin debt weas paid in full...am I reading this wrong?

Hmmmmmmm:hmm:

Was David saved before Jesus paid that debt? They say He paid for sins past, present and future, so that would mean that David was not yet saved, but awaiting salvation...in Heaven? And if he was not yet saved, how could he have the Holy Spirit?

Huh. This isn't really where I expected this thread to go...I love it when that happens.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 08:26 AM
We live in a unique period of time where God gives His spirit indiscriminately to everybody who is saved. The very fact that David expressed a fear of losing the Spirit in Psalm 51 indicates that there was a real possibility for him to lose that Spirit. Today, that would not be an issue for a believer. If a true believer sins today, they Spirit stays with them regardless. That is something that was apparently not the case before the cross. That is what Jesus was apparently talking about, was a new dispensation where the Spirit is poured out on all believers indiscriminately for the first time ever. We are truly blessed to live within that time period.

crush
Oct 31st 2008, 05:17 PM
Notice in Romans Chapter 1 that God is holding everyone throughout history in the entire world responsible for rejecting Him:

Romans 1:19-20 – “...what may be known about God is plain to them [humankind in general], because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

Notice here that God is talking about a level of revelation that involves no Israel, no Mosaic sacrificial system, no Scriptures, and no Christ, only nature and the creation around us. God says we should know based only on His revelation of Himself in the creation around us. This is precisely the condition that existed up until Moses wrote the Pentateuch. And yet Paul is using it as a reason for God's condemnation of the lost AFTER the start of the “Church Age”. “...what may be known about God IS plain to them...” “...so that people ARE without excuse.”

Here’s why that’s a problem – traditional Dispensationalism has one phase of God’s revelation replacing the previous one, all going sequentially in order. This is why a lot of people believe that, today, unless you believe on the name “Jesus”, you are automatically condemned to hell, even if you've never even heard the name Jesus. Romans Chapter 1 directly contradicts this. Romans Chapter 1 suggests that we are only responsible for the level of revelation that we have been given. That being the case, the only logical conclusion is that God’s phases of revelation do not replace each other, but rather are added on top of each other, each one clarifying the previous and giving us a better understanding of the issues at hand.[/color]

The highest level of revelation we have been given thus far is the combination of the completed 66 books of the Word of God along with the historical revelation of Christ Himself in the flesh when He visited the earth 2000 years ago. But that doesn't mean that everything else before that simply gets thrown out with the bathwater.

This is proof that it is indeed possible for God to deal with more than one group of people at a time. He is not restricted to dealing only with Israel or only with Gentiles.

I should also point out that this does not provide an “excuse” for us to not respond to Christ. We cannot say “Well, I don't want to respond to Christ, but I can agree that the world around me was definitely created by an intelligent being, so I'll just respond on that level.” Nope, sorry Charlie, you're still condemned, because Christ was revealed to you and you are responsible to respond to the revelation that you were given.

I really don't see how anyone, by observing nature, could come to the realization of the God of the bible....past, present, or future. It may or may not occur to someone that there is a creative force behind their environment, but the personal revelation, by the Word and the Spirit, of the True God isn't there.

I believe that Romans 1:19 is a prophecy, not an indictment of all humans that have observed nature who don't believe.

We are told that "the invisible things of God are clearly seen". In the context the "invisible things" are clearly seen through the things that God made. We can see the things that God made easily enough, but what about these "invisible things"?

We now know that all objects that we see are compromised by smaller objects that we can't see, or are invisible to us (molecules, atoms, particles) We discover, or see, these "invisible things" by breaking apart the "things that are made", or larger objects that we can see.

IOW we "clearly see" the "invisible things" by reverse engineering, or breaking apart, the "things that are made by God" So, with this in mind, Romans 1:20 would make a little more sense.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things[particles] of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made[objects created by God from invisible things]

So, IMO, this whole passage is about secular mankind discovering God through his creative process. Or science discovering, without a doubt, that our system has a Creator. Since this hasn't happened yet, it would have to be a prophecy. But we seem to be getting ever closer to this discovery. The LHC was created for this purpose, to find the "god particle".

If God ever allowed mankind to learn his methods for creation, and man was able to mimic this, Rom 1:21 outlines what would definitely result.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Instead of fearfully stepping back and acknowledging our Creator, men would begin to imagine what they could do with this new power. Which would of course would be against God's original creation. Just since gene-spicing and cloning technology was discovered, some real horrifying creatures have been created by men against God's original design.

Rom 1:22 tells what "images" people will decide to create with this new creative technology. The "Glory of God" in this case would be his creation.

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And also, people will be able to modify their own bodies in an evil way :rolleyes:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves

Or maybe not LOL *shrugs*

John146
Oct 31st 2008, 05:53 PM
What about those who did/do not know of Jesus Christ?

ForeRunner, I am interested in your answer but please read the entire thread so you know where we are at in the discussion.

Thanks.:DThere probably aren't near as many who do not know of Him as some people think.

Romans 10
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 1st 2008, 12:22 AM
That's not what you said, though.Then I obviously needed to clarify myself, which you helped me to do, so thanks. :thumbsup:
I really feel you are minimising the glory of the gospel - it's not just Jesus' "life story" that is recounted in the NT - it's the explanation of His DEATH AND RESURRECTION and all that they mean to us - and how we get right with God as a result that is the constant theme! THAT'S the gospel! Please don’t take my tendencies to be hyper-analytical about everything, including the Gospel, as “minimizing” it. I assure you, the power and glory of the Gospel message blows me away anytime I start dwelling on it, even if my posts in this thread don’t convey that passion.
I disagree. People love darkness rather than light - without the illumination of the Spirit, people will remain in their sins. But if they haven't even HEARD of Christ, how can they believe (Rom 10:14)? OK, so this is the crux of our disagreement on this point: You say that, without hearing the name (and everything that goes with it) of Jesus that it’s impossible for somebody to be saved. I can see your point and respect that. What I’m suggesting is simply that it is indeed far more difficult to be saved without hearing the name of Jesus (and everything that goes with it), but it might not be impossible.

To be totally honest, I’m not dogmatic about this, I really don’t know for certain. You might be right, and if it's God’s will for somebody who was never fortunate enough to have the Gospel of Jesus Christ shared with them to be automatically condemned to hell without any chance of ever being saved no matter what, then I will trust His wisdom that it’s the right thing. It just seems difficult for me to accept that the Father Who has demonstrated such incredible love for us would automatically condemn somebody to hell because they never said the name “Jesus” in their prayers, even if maybe at some point in their life, they figured out from observing the world around them that there is some power greater than themselves at work, and that they are not worthy of it or Him.
And I offer Rom 10:14. Rom 1:19-20 says that they are without excuse - but general revelation never saved anyone! People NEED to hear of Christ! That's what the Great Commission's about!Your point is well taken. Perhaps you could answer a question for me – How was Job saved? What message was shared with him that brought Him to the Lord? And if that “message”, whatever it was, was valid for him, what would stop that message from being valid today to somebody who had not received any further revelation? And keep in mind that, in my original post earlier, I did clarify that we are all responsible for whatever level of revelation that we are given.
No - because they suppressed the truth that they had in wickedness and loved darkness rather than whatever light they had. For the most part, I would agree. But there will be a Job here and there.
I don't see that anywhere in those verses.That’s why I’m not being dogmatic about this. I’m reading between the lines. I’m assuming (and you know what that does ;) ) that if the Creation around us is sufficient to condemn us, then shouldn’t it also be sufficient to save us, in the absence of other information, such as the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
I said that no one SEEKS God - on their own. I'm sure people were praying for me - I can think of four at least - and God worked by His Spirit, convicting me of sin and opening the eyes of my understanding, showing me Christ and drawing me irresistibly to Him!Right, the Spirit used that Gospel message to draw you. So what message did the Spirit use to draw Job? Or Abraham? Or any of the Old Testament saints before Moses?
You've just answerd your own question!Ah, but I didn’t say what the Spirit draws us with. He (the Spirit) didn’t draw Job or Abraham or Enoch or anybody else before Moses with the Gospel as He drew you, so what did He draw them with? And what’s to prevent Him from drawing somebody else with the same thing today, in the absence of somebody to share about Jesus?
It's general revelation - like the Magi following the star, that will only take us so far - we need Scripture and the special revelation of Christ (the prophecy regarding Christ being born in Bethlehem, as far as the Magi were concerned) before we can find Christ. That is indeed precisely why the Gospel is so important to share with others, just as you say. A person who has that information (the Gospel of Jesus) will be more likely to respond positively, because it will enable the Spirit to draw them more. That’s the awesome responsibility and power that has been given to us. We have the power to enable the Spirit to draw people to Jesus who might have otherwise not been drawn. The “message” of the Creation will only get people so far. Somebody like Job would be prone to respond on that level. But others will need more prompting to respond, and that’s where the responsibility falls on us to get the Gospel out.
You know how Arminians accuse Calvinists of believing that people will be saved regardless, if they're predestined to be saved? Like "even if they don't hear the gospel"? That's what you seemt o be advocating.Not at all. I’m saying that a person will be more likely to be saved if they have the Gospel of Jesus shared with them. I’m saying it’s not impossible for them to respond to less revelation, such as the Creation around us, but having heard the Gospel of Jesus, the chances of them responding are much greater. That where the responsibility falls on us to share it.
The Bible makes clear that we have to HEAR and BELIEVE the gospel - or we won't be saved.Have you noticed that the Romans 14 reference you’re citing doesn’t say “be saved”? It says “call on the one”, or “call on the name”. That is absolutely true, but I’m not finding where it specifies that, without calling on the name, it’s impossible to be saved for somebody who never had the opportunity.
I agree - but if you believe that someone can be saved WITHOUT hearing the gospel, then why is it critical? It isn't really if they can be saved without hearing it!Because the odds greatly increase, that’s why.
But that's the thing - revelation of God in creation is NOT the gospel! It simply makes people without excuse! :giveup:So it’s impossible for them to be saved because of circumstances beyond their control, namely that they were never fortunate enough to have somebody share with them about Jesus? How, then, are they without excuse?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 1st 2008, 12:32 AM
I really don't see how anyone, by observing nature, could come to the realization of the God of the bible....past, present, or future. It may or may not occur to someone that there is a creative force behind their environment, but the personal revelation, by the Word and the Spirit, of the True God isn't there.Then how did Job do it?
I believe that Romans 1:19 is a prophecy, not an indictment of all humans that have observed nature who don't believe.A prophecy speaks of the future. Romans 1:19-20 is speaking in present tense.
We are told that "the invisible things of God are clearly seen". In the context the "invisible things" are clearly seen through the things that God made. We can see the things that God made easily enough, but what about these "invisible things"?The nature of God is what's being pointed out there.
We now know that all objects that we see are compromised by smaller objects that we can't see, or are invisible to us (molecules, atoms, particles) We discover, or see, these "invisible things" by breaking apart the "things that are made", or larger objects that we can see.But they're not invisible. Those things can be seen with a microscope. Just because they were too small to be seen before microscopes were invented doesn't make them "invisible".
IOW we "clearly see" the "invisible things" by reverse engineering, or breaking apart, the "things that are made by God" So, with this in mind, Romans 1:20 would make a little more sense.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things[particles] of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made[objects created by God from invisible things]

So, IMO, this whole passage is about secular mankind discovering God through his creative process. Or science discovering, without a doubt, that our system has a Creator. Since this hasn't happened yet, it would have to be a prophecy.Um, according to my Bible, mankind is never going to admit there's a Creator behind it all. Romans 1:19-20 is speaking of something else.
But we seem to be getting ever closer to this discovery. The LHC was created for this purpose, to find the "god particle".And when they find the "God particle", they'll just explain it away as something else.
If God ever allowed mankind to learn his methods for creation, and man was able to mimic this, Rom 1:21 outlines what would definitely result.Considering that creating something from nothing, from outside our plane of existence is impossible, since we can't leave our plane of existence on our own, that's pretty much impossible. There is no "trick" to it, it just can't be done.
Instead of fearfully stepping back and acknowledging our Creator, men would begin to imagine what they could do with this new power. Which would of course would be against God's original creation. Just since gene-spicing and cloning technology was discovered, some real horrifying creatures have been created by men against God's original design.Gene-splicing and cloning and other such abominations are still nothing more than manipulating matter that already exists, it's not creation.
Rom 1:22 tells what "images" people will decide to create with this new creative technology. The "Glory of God" in this case would be his creation.

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.This is simply referring to old-fashioned idolatry, even if it has a high-tech spin on it, it's just the same old thing.
And also, people will be able to modify their own bodies in an evil way :rolleyes:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves

Or maybe not LOL *shrugs*It's still the same thing. People are doing nothing today that wasn't already being done centuries ago - we're just doing it fancier because we have technology now.

My point still stands.

crush
Nov 1st 2008, 02:09 AM
Then how did Job do it?
I don't understand your question. Could you elaborate?


A prophecy speaks of the future. Romans 1:19-20 is speaking in present tense.I believe Romans 1:18 places this series of verses at the time when the "wrath of God is revealed from heaven"


But they're not invisible. Those things can be seen with a microscope. Just because they were too small to be seen before microscopes were invented doesn't make them "invisible".Your argument, though logical, isn't correct. At the quantum level, not only are these "particles" invisible, but they actually don't even exist until they are observed.

Shroedinger's cat is a rough example of how things work at this level. It isn't known whether the cat is alive or dead until the box is opened and the cat is observed. So the conclusion is that the cat is both alive and dead until the box is opened, and that is the correct conclusion. A living/dead cat doesn't exist in our "reality", so we can say that the cat doesn't really exist until the box is opened.

These particles exist in this same "possibility" state as the cat did, or they exist in a condition that realizes every one of their infinite possible outcomes, but in "reality" they don't exist at all until they are observed.


Um, according to my Bible, mankind is never going to admit there's a Creator behind it all. Romans 1:19-20 is speaking of something else.And when they find the "God particle", they'll just explain it away as something else.I agree, and I believe that this is the point of Romans 1. That even if God is "clearly" revealed through his creation. The Creator will not be acknowledged, but the technology would be embraced.


Considering that creating something from nothing, from outside our plane of existence is impossible, since we can't leave our plane of existence on our own, that's pretty much impossible. There is no "trick" to it, it just can't be done.Yes, actually it can be done. This is exactly what quantum mechanics is, creating something out of nothing, bringing into our "plane of existance" something that wasn't there before, by observing it.


Gene-splicing and cloning and other such abominations are still nothing more than manipulating matter that already exists, it's not creation.I agree, I was just using this as an example of how mankind already perverts God's creation.


My point still stands.Let's say someone crept up behind you and knocked you out, and when you woke up you found yourself abandoned alone in a prison cell.

Really, how much information about your attacker could you ascertain simply by observing your cell and situation.

You may be able to figure out simple things like...

Somebody put me here, they didn't want me to be free. But how much really would you know about your attacker's identity, personality, and plan for your life, unless he introduced himself to you and told you? You could guess all day long, and probably would, but you would probably be wrong. There are too many possibilities.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 1st 2008, 03:07 AM
I don't understand your question. Could you elaborate? Job was “saved” when there was no Scriptures and no Gospel to share, yet somehow he came to an understanding that there would be a redeemer that he needed to get into heaven.

Job 19:25 – “ I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth.”

How did Job come to understand that?
I believe Romans 1:18 places this series of verses at the time when the "wrath of God is revealed from heaven"Yet the whole passage speaks in present tense, and nothing Paul says there indicates that we are to take it otherwise.
Your argument, though logical, isn't correct. At the quantum level, not only are these "particles" invisible, but they actually don't even exist until they are observed. OK, we’re not talking about quantum physics here, we’re talking about plain English (Greek) Scriptures. I can see the atoms in the monitor in front of me, even thought I can’t see them individually. They exist.
Shroedinger's cat is a rough example of how things work at this level. It isn't known whether the cat is alive or dead until the box is opened and the cat is observed. So the conclusion is that the cat is both alive and dead until the box is opened, and that is the correct conclusion. A living/dead cat doesn't exist in our "reality", so we can say that the cat doesn't really exist until the box is opened.

These particles exist in this same "possibility" state as the cat did, or they exist in a condition that realizes every one of their infinite possible outcomes, but in "reality" they don't exist at all until they are observed. Going off into a philosophical area like this is something that I see no indication that Paul had in mind. He was attempting to communicate his intentions to the Church in Rome as simply as he could, not to get them to understand quantum physics. Besides, how could he have written of such things when he himself would not have known of them? Paul never observed subatomic particles in his entire life, and yet you claim he was writing of them as if he had just as full a knowledge of them as a 21st Century scientist. That’s not even logical.
I agree, and I believe that this is the point of Romans 1. That even if God is "clearly" revealed through his creation. The Creator will not be acknowledged, but the technology would be embraced.But if refusing to understand it is sufficient cause for condemnation, then choosing to understand it should likewise be sufficient cause for salvation.
Yes, actually it can be done. This is exactly what quantum mechanics is, creating something out of nothing, bringing into our "plane of existance" something that wasn't there before, by observing it.You’re talking about perception. I’m talking about conservation of mass and energy.
I agree, I was just using this as an example of how mankind already perverts God's creation.In our own minds, yes, but that doesn’t alter the fact that those subatomic particles that you’re speaking of already existed and were collectively fully visible when Paul wrote Romans 1.
Let's say someone crept up behind you and knocked you out, and when you woke up you found yourself abandoned alone in a prison cell.

Really, how much information about your attacker could you ascertain simply by observing your cell and situation.

You may be able to figure out simple things like...

Somebody put me here, they didn't want me to be free. But how much really would you know about your attacker's identity, personality, and plan for your life, unless he introduced himself to you and told you? You could guess all day long, and probably would, but you would probably be wrong. There are too many possibilities.That is an assumption on your part. For my part, I look at the Creation around me and it becomes clear to me that there is no way that this all happened by chance, that there has to be an intelligent Entity behind it all. That being the case, I am also forced to the conclusion that since I am a part of that Creation, then I must have been created by the same Entity. Having arrived at that conclusion, it stands to reason that this Entity would have a way of living in mind for me, and having placed me in an environment that is suitable for my existence, He would want me to have a prosperous and abundant life. That would, in turn, mean that He also wants those around me to equally have a prosperous and abundant life, which means that I have a responsibility to contribute to their prosperous and abundant life, not to detract from it. Therefore when I do things like lie, steal, and murder, I am not fulfilling the role that this Entity doubtlessly had in mind for me when He made me.

However, at the same time, I observe that others around me are equally unsuccessful at carrying out this purpose that was intended for each of us, which leads me to the conclusion that nobody can carry it out successfully.

Now, having arrived at that conclusion, and also knowing that this Entity would not have gone to the trouble of making such a magnificent Creation and placed us here only to cast us aside, I would further have to conclude that He must have some way in mind of being able to set it all aright. There must be some mechanism in His mind to straighten everything out. I don’t know what it is or how it will work, but I do recognize that I am wholly dependent on Him for me to find my place in His creation, because I and everybody around me have obviously missed the mark, which is the very definition of the Hebrew word, “sin”.

So, not having heard the explicit Gospel of Jesus Christ, you tell me – will I spend eternity in hell? Or in heaven?

That’s not so easy to answer, is it?

crush
Nov 1st 2008, 06:42 AM
Job was “saved” when there was no Scriptures and no Gospel to share, yet somehow he came to an understanding that there would be a redeemer that he needed to get into heaven.

Job 19:25 – “ I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth.”

How did Job come to understand that?
I don't think he came to this understanding by examining a coconut, or watching a couple of beavers build a dam. He probably understood this the only way that it's possible to understand such a thing.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.



Yet the whole passage speaks in present tense, and nothing Paul says there indicates that we are to take it otherwise.This whole passage refers to they, they, they. Who are they? Verses 18 and 19 explain. They are men "who hold the truth in unrighteousness", men that God showed what may be known of him. When do they live? At the time when "the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven".

If this were to apply to everyone throughout history, then the "wrath of God" would be revealed from Heaven on a very regular basis, so that all living non-believers received their share.

IMO this is referring to end-time, Revelations type wrath. I can't think of any examples between now and the time of Paul's writing where God's wrath has been "revealed from Heaven".


OK, we’re not talking about quantum physics here, we’re talking about plain English (Greek) Scriptures. I can see the atoms in the monitor in front of me, even thought I can’t see them individually. They exist.It's a difficult principal to understand. I won't be able to convince you I'm sure because what I'm saying goes against reason, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. The "atoms" in your monitor shift in and out of reality constantly, it's "there" but it isn't. It's there because it is observed by a consciousness.

Einstein spent the last half of his life trying to prove that a "mouse didn't create the moon". He couldn't LOL.


Going off into a philosophical area like this is something that I see no indication that Paul had in mind. He was attempting to communicate his intentions to the Church in Rome as simply as he could, not to get them to understand quantum physics. Besides, how could he have written of such things when he himself would not have known of them? Paul never observed subatomic particles in his entire life, and yet you claim he was writing of them as if he had just as full a knowledge of them as a 21st Century scientist. That’s not even logical.As you pointed out, there is a lesson to be learned by the people of the day in Romans 1. Don't create and worship idols, God created everything etc. As well as a deeper lesson to be learned by the people who would live at the time of the prophecy.

I'm not so sure that Paul and the other Disciples didn't understand these principals, maybe not how we do today. But in the time of miracles that they witnessed and performed, I'm sure they were made aware, or at least wondered about the mechanics.


But if refusing to understand it is sufficient cause for condemnation, then choosing to understand it should likewise be sufficient cause for salvation.Salvation is explained in verse 16

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Verses 18-32 are justification for God's condemnation IMO, not an opposite to the way of salvation.


You’re talking about perception. I’m talking about conservation of mass and energy.Physical laws break down at the quantum level. All objects are "quantum objects", even large ones that we see, but at their basic level no physical laws are applicable.


That is an assumption on your part. For my part, I look at the Creation around me and it becomes clear to me that there is no way that this all happened by chance, that there has to be an intelligent Entity behind it all. That being the case, I am also forced to the conclusion that since I am a part of that Creation, then I must have been created by the same Entity. Having arrived at that conclusion, it stands to reason that this Entity would have a way of living in mind for me, and having placed me in an environment that is suitable for my existence, He would want me to have a prosperous and abundant life. That would, in turn, mean that He also wants those around me to equally have a prosperous and abundant life, which means that I have a responsibility to contribute to their prosperous and abundant life, not to detract from it. Therefore when I do things like lie, steal, and murder, I am not fulfilling the role that this Entity doubtlessly had in mind for me when He made me.

However, at the same time, I observe that others around me are equally unsuccessful at carrying out this purpose that was intended for each of us, which leads me to the conclusion that nobody can carry it out successfully.

Now, having arrived at that conclusion, and also knowing that this Entity would not have gone to the trouble of making such a magnificent Creation and placed us here only to cast us aside, I would further have to conclude that He must have some way in mind of being able to set it all aright. There must be some mechanism in His mind to straighten everything out. I don’t know what it is or how it will work, but I do recognize that I am wholly dependent on Him for me to find my place in His creation, because I and everybody around me have obviously missed the mark, which is the very definition of the Hebrew word, “sin”.I cannot believe that your conclusions were not influenced by your understanding of scripture and by your upbringing in a society that promotes the laws and morals you are presenting.

If you were born in India 1000 years ago, in a jungle full of man-eating tigers you may have come to a different conclusion. You may have come to the conclusion that your creator made you be tiger food. That your creator was a tiger, or at least sympathetic to them. That it's okay to steal from or kill your neighbor, because he will probably be dead tomorrow anyway, eaten by a tiger.


So, not having heard the explicit Gospel of Jesus Christ, you tell me – will I spend eternity in hell? Or in heaven?

That’s not so easy to answer, is it?I think that everyone that God wishes to hear the Gospel will hear it, past and present. I think it's no coincidence that the Gospel is so readily available to us now at a time when the population on the earth absolutely dwarfs the population of the Earth prior to Christ's appearing. So if you look at it from a standpoint of total humans who ever lived throughout all of history, the vast majority of the total have had access to the Gospel, due to the nature of population growth.

I think we have differing ideas on "eternity in hell" vs. "second death", so even though it's not a hard question to answer, it's probably best not to answer it :)

LookingUp
Nov 1st 2008, 06:51 AM
Hey Luke, I haven't read this entire thread but thought I'd throw something out for you & others to consider.

There was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. (Acts 10)

Here is a man who feared the God of Abraham and prayed to Him continually.

Based on all that this man Cornelius knew, he was living out to the fullest extent the revelation he had received about God. Based on your theory, if I understand it correctly, this man was saved at this point in time.

Later Peter went to him to tell him about the Lord... to share the gospel of Christ. Acts 11:14 tells us that this man Cornelius was NOT saved at the time Peter went to him. "...he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household"

So, I ask, those distant people in far off tribes... if they have come to know God with the revelation given to them and die, you say they are saved. BUT if those same people are given the gospel by a missionary who shows up and they accept the gospel of Christ (like Cornelius), at what point did they become unsaved needing to hear the gospel that would save them? Did they need saving by hearing the gospel or not? Apparently Cornelius did.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 1st 2008, 07:10 AM
OK, I can go along with that. :yes: Excellent point, thanks. :thumbsup:

crush
Nov 1st 2008, 03:11 PM
Hey Luke, I haven't read this entire thread but thought I'd throw something out for you & others to consider.

There was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. (Acts 10)

Here is a man who feared the God of Abraham and prayed to Him continually.

Based on all that this man Cornelius knew, he was living out to the fullest extent the revelation he had received about God. Based on your theory, if I understand it correctly, this man was saved at this point in time.

Later Peter went to him to tell him about the Lord... to share the gospel of Christ. Acts 11:14 tells us that this man Cornelius was NOT saved at the time Peter went to him. "...he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household"

So, I ask, those distant people in far off tribes... if they have come to know God with the revelation given to them and die, you say they are saved. BUT if those same people are given the gospel by a missionary who shows up and they accept the gospel of Christ (like Cornelius), at what point did they become unsaved needing to hear the gospel that would save them? Did they need saving by hearing the gospel or not? Apparently Cornelius did.

Great post LookingUp!

treasureman
Nov 1st 2008, 07:40 PM
After the 5 month reign of the antichrist Satan in Jerusalem, Jesus Christ returns at the seven trump to begin the millenium which is a thousand year reign. At this time His Word will be taught to all those who are without knowledge.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 1st 2008, 07:45 PM
Where do you get "5 months" from?

gpmosely
Nov 22nd 2008, 09:42 PM
Where do you get "5 months" from?

Well originally it was to be 3 years, but Christ shortened it for the elects (read believers) sake because the anti christ would be so convincing.

Now I've recieved a request from the OP through private message to give scripture in another thread that I was referencing to this so this is really just for the Original Poster. :D

So lets start upon Death of the flesh of the body: When we die the silver cord parts- meaning our spirits immediately go to the Father. But they do not go directly to heaven or to hell: as noted in the Lords prayer.

“ … OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME, THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE IN EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN….” (matt 6:9-10)
Notice the words Kingdom Come...that denotes a future event. So where is the kingdom going to be?

If we go to John 5:28-29 MARVEL NOT AT THIS, FOR THE HOUR IS COMING, IN THE WHICH ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND SHALL COME FORTH; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; AND THOSE THAT HAVE DONE EVIL, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.”

Notice that it says for those still in the graves. Remember we are not talking about bodies that are rotting in the ground etc we're talking about those that are dead. Now this death cannot mean physically dead because those that are physically dead are with the Father (Ecclesiasties)
so this must mean those that are spiritually dead.

So you have all the dead with the Father- but where do the bad guys go and where do the believers go? Well those that believe go to the Father on that side of the gulf, those that don't believe will stay on the other side of the gulf away from the Father. So when is the final judgement where there is no point of return?

JOHN 6: 39, 44 -- “…AND THIS IS THE FATHER’S WILL WHICH HAS SENT ME , THAT OF ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, BUT SHOULD RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY.” – “ … NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”

The last day. So the last day- is when times pretty much run out. Its all or nothing and God will give those spiritually dead, not necessarily a second chance but a chance to hear the true word of God. This will happen over the time span of 1000 years.

REVELATION 20:1-5, WHEN JESUS’ THOUSAND YEARS OF PEACE IS IN EFFECT, THERE WILL ONLY BE THOSE PERSONS FOUND WORTHY TO HAVE BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD AT THAT TIME (VERSE 5: “…BUT THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.”). THEN, ONCE THE MILLENNIUM PERIOD OF PEACE HAS BEEN COMPLETED, AND SATAN HAS BEEN PLACED INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, THE REST OF THE DEAD WILL BE AWAKENED TO THE JUDGMENT.

This tells us that there was one judgement already. But its basically just the shifting those who love Jesus and those who don't. Those who do stay on the side of the Gulf with the Father those who don't are on the other side, but then as Revelations points out- that there will be 1000 years where God gives that chance to those who have never had the opprotunity to learn or hear the word. Then once that 1000 years is over, comes the great Throne Judgement where it's the end of the line. No chances.

I will need a chance to look through and pull out all the scripture in regards to the Gulf as it is written a lot about what happens and with the Millenium. It will take me a while to look through and grab them out and write it out but I did want the OP to know I recieved his message.

Gulah Papyrus
Nov 24th 2008, 05:56 PM
Thank you GP, greatly appreciated!

Lamplighter
Nov 25th 2008, 07:38 AM
Just so everybody knows "Jesus" is not the name of the Christ, it's just the English translation we use.;)

Romans 10:13- For whosoever shall call upon the name(onoma) of the Lord shall be saved.

Greek word (onoma) means-the cause or reason named, persons reckoned up by name, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one's rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.

It doesn't matter what name you use in what language for Christ, it's the authority behind the name that matters.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 25th 2008, 02:24 PM
Well originally it was to be 3 years, but Christ shortened it for the elects (read believers) sake because the anti christ would be so convincing.

Now I've recieved a request from the OP through private message to give scripture in another thread that I was referencing to this so this is really just for the Original Poster. :DSo you're just not going to tell us where you got 5 months from?

shawn_2828
Feb 16th 2009, 09:58 PM
An 'all roads lead to God' close friend of mine asked me this question today and I want to give him a very solid answer:

. But what about those that didn't know or have the chance to know him? Would Jesus be upset that others would have found their way to God? Aren't we all his creatures?

The conversation leading up to this point had to do with him stating that many Christians believe that Christ isn't the only way. I explained that they aren't really 'Christian' by definition and that exclusivity is a large part of the Christian foundation etc. and this was his response.


I have a good idea of how to answer but it can never hurt to check with the experts!

Thanks in advance.

Being a Christian is not going to send someone to Heaven. Jesus is and is the only way. Jesus said that He was the only way, Jesus is God and can't lie. I am not an expert. If someone lives in London and they are not a Christian, but they follow Jesus, will they go to Heaven?

In Jesus time there were know Christians, but were disciples of Christ.