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Lucariokid13
Oct 30th 2008, 06:17 PM
If u can only get into heaven throu by Christs grace and him forgiving sins,how did people before Jesus was born, get into heaven? :hmm:
Again sorry if its a stupid question.

Jeffinator
Oct 30th 2008, 06:24 PM
By following the laws and commandments of God..Punishment was a lot harder for people back then just read Leviticus..

Lucariokid13
Oct 30th 2008, 06:27 PM
By following the laws and commandments of God..Punishment was a lot harder for people back then just read Leviticus..

So its more salvation throu works moe than it is u mean?

Thnx for the quick reply =)

David Taylor
Oct 30th 2008, 06:33 PM
If u can only get into heaven throu by Christs grace and him forgiving sins,how did people before Jesus was born, get into heaven? :hmm:
Again sorry if its a stupid question.


The same way we get to heaven now...through Christ's grace and him forgiving of sins.

Consider what David wrote in the Psalms a thousand years before Christ was born in Bethlehem.

Psalms 51:7 "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. "

Psalms 86:5
"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. "

Psalms 103:2
"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction"


Consider what Isaiah wrote, nearly 900 years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Isaiah very clearly taught how Christ would take away the sins of the people.

Jesus Himself, taught that the OT Prophets spoke and preached of Himself...

Luke 24:25 Then Jesus said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

Jeffinator
Oct 30th 2008, 06:33 PM
Well they used to have to sacrifice animals like a sheep or lamb in order for them to be forgiven of their sins..which is why we call Jesus the lamb of God.

Lucariokid13
Oct 30th 2008, 06:37 PM
Thanks a bunch guys. Much apperiated.

David Taylor
Oct 30th 2008, 06:38 PM
Well they used to have to sacrifice animals like a sheep or lamb in order for them to be forgiven of their sins..which is why we call Jesus the lamb of God.

The sacrifice of animals never forgave sin.

They were a pre-type that pointed forward to the only true sacrifice (Christ) that takes away sins.

Hebrews makes this very clear; only Jesus takes away sins.

Hebrew 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when [Jesus] cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering [of bulls and goats] thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. "

markdrums
Oct 30th 2008, 06:43 PM
Knowing that the Old Testsament sacrifical system was a "type / shadow" of the crucifixion of Jesus, those who lived BEFORE then, looked FORWARD to the cross. (as in directional... or in anticipation). They put their faith & trust in a future fulfillment.

We today, look BACK at the cross & the finished work Christ did for the payment of our sins.

So they were saved the same way we are.... but as I mentioned, for them, it was just a difference of their faith being in what was to come, and us putting our faith in what DID come.
:)

make sense??

Literalist-Luke
Oct 30th 2008, 07:52 PM
The sacrifice of animals never forgave sin.

They were a pre-type that pointed forward to the only true sacrifice (Christ) that takes away sins.Agreed totally. Had Jesus not died on that cross, every single person from Adam and Eve all the way through to the end of history would have to be condemned. Absolutely nobody from the past, the present, or the future gets into heaven without Jesus' death on our behalf.

JesusReignsForever
Oct 30th 2008, 08:09 PM
Althought I know God and Jesus are the same. My understanding was that in the OT when people dies they did not go to heaven, they were kept down in the bosom of abraham?!?! Because itsnt it written about the rich man that died, wasnt he crying to Moses or Abraham to tell his brothers not to come to "this place" (hell)



Luke 16:19-31 (King James Version)

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Which is why during the 3 days Jesus went down into hell conquered Death and preached to the lost soul which were in abrahams bosom... there was no grace under the law...which is why Jesus came. Correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe I am.

David Taylor
Oct 31st 2008, 03:48 PM
Which is why during the 3 days Jesus went down into hell conquered Death and preached to the lost soul which were in abrahams bosom... there was no grace under the law...which is why Jesus came. Correct me if I am wrong but I dont believe I am.

Jesus conquered death when He rose again; defeating death publically.

Jesus's gospel was preached throughout the writings of the Old Testament.

As Jesus said in Luke 16, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

When Jesus gave up the ghost on the cross; Jesus' spirit went to the Father in Heaven.

There has always been grace through faith....salvation is the same in the OT as in the NT. The Law never saved anyone soul; it only was a giant billboard reminding people that they were sinners; and that they needed Christ to save them from their sins.


Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 45:21 "who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. "

Isaiah 49:26 "all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob."

Isaiah 60:16 "thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob."

Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."

John 4:42 "Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

Luke 24:25 "Then Jesus said unto them, O slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. "

John 5:45 "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me."

kenrank
Nov 20th 2008, 01:14 PM
First, the only question that is stupid is the one not asked!

It is actually a better question than you think. Most Christians think that Judah (Jew is the shortened form of Judah) does not believe in Yahushua (Jesus). This is actually not true. They do with every fiber of their being, just like you do. They simply don't believe he came yet, so they look "forward" to his coming. We, look "back" at what he did knowing he has been with us before.

I saw one post about Torah (The Law). True, they live(d) by Torah, but they still looked forward to Messiah understanding that he would ultimately redeem them. This is why Yahushua said:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but me.

Everyone who had ever lived must come through him. We do so now because we are blessed to understand what he did before. Soon, Judah and all the House of Israel will know as well!

Zec 12:10 "And I shall pour on the house of Dawiḏ and on the inhabitants of Yerushalayim a spirit of favour and prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son. And they shall be in bitterness over Him as a bitterness over the first-born.

When this day comes, all will know.

Peace.
Ken

Alaska
Nov 23rd 2008, 01:55 AM
If u can only get into heaven throu by Christs grace and him forgiving sins,how did people before Jesus was born, get into heaven? :hmm:


The OT does not provide for getting into heaven per se.
It is the NT that gives instruction concerning getting there through Jesus.
Though the OT refers to heaven and hell, the revelation concerning inheriting eternal life was kept as a secret to a large degree with the honour of revealing it fully, reserved for Jesus when he was to come.
As far as how he judges and what are the criteria for getting in before Jesus came, we will find that out more clearly when it is all over and if we are found worthy of everlasting life. We will then be able to fully understand.
But clearly the criteria for them in ignorance and us after Christ came are very different.
The Holy Ghost as an indwelling source of newness of life in a believer as the result of Jesus' resurrection was not available before he resurrected.
The Holy Spirit coming upon men or being with or in them in OT times is different and less glorious than what is experienced by a NT believer who experiences the resurrected Christ in them and the taste of eternity. Such an experience was unavailable to mankind as a whole until the atonement of the lamb was to come in its fulness through Christ.
Yet though unattainable before Christ, Jesus refers to some from OT times who will live eternally.
There is a lack of complete clarity concerning those before Christ. We should trust that however it works, God is just and fair to both Jew who had Torah and Gentile who did not.

Lamplighter
Nov 23rd 2008, 02:05 AM
Knowing that the Old Testsament sacrifical system was a "type / shadow" of the crucifixion of Jesus, those who lived BEFORE then, looked FORWARD to the cross. (as in directional... or in anticipation). They put their faith & trust in a future fulfillment.

We today, look BACK at the cross & the finished work Christ did for the payment of our sins.

So they were saved the same way we are.... but as I mentioned, for them, it was just a difference of their faith being in what was to come, and us putting our faith in what DID come.
:)

make sense??

Exactly.

The OT Saints looked forward to the cross of Christ, just as we look backwards to the cross of Christ for salvation today.