PDA

View Full Version : Prosperity Preachers and Financial Gain



New Creation
Oct 30th 2008, 10:01 PM
Greetings all! I would encourage you to read this article, you can read some below I am just posting a little snip of it, if you would like to read the whole article click below, it is long, but so worth the read, pass it on! Blessings from Mexico.
http://www.cristianismobiblico.com/prosperity.htm

-Lina Urban



Prosperity Preachers and Financial Gain


By Josef Urban



A Scriptural Examination of the Modern Doctrine of Financial Prosperity



...PROSPERITY PREACHERS VS. THE WORD OF GOD

The message of the Bible stands in direct contrast to what these prosperity preachers are saying…

The prosperity preachers are telling us to get more for ourselves, but Jesus told us to get rid of what we already have (Luke 12:33). Who’s right –them or the Lord Jesus?

The prosperity preachers are telling us that God wants us to be rich, but the Apostle Paul said that those who desire to be rich fall into many temptations and snares and foolish hurtful desires which drown men in destruction (1 Timothy 6:9). Who’s right –The prosperity preachers or the Apostle Paul?

The prosperity preachers are telling us not to be content with what we have but to command God to give us more, but the Bible commands us to be content with what we have (Hebrews 13:5). Who’s right –Them or the Word of God?

The prosperity preachers are telling us that God wants us to have the best that this world has to offer, but the Apostle John told us that if we live like the world and love the things of the world then we’re not even saved (1 John 2:15). Who’s right? Are we to believe them or the Apostle John?

The prosperity preachers are standing up in front of worldwide audiences and boasting about how much silver and gold they have, but the Apostle Peter had to say to a poor beggar that he didn’t even have any money to give him (Acts 3:6). Surely Peter wasn’t lying. He actually had no money! Who’s right –the prosperity preachers or the Apostle Peter?

The prosperity preachers have stood in the midst of the Church and used the things of God to accumulate mass monetary gain for themselves, but when Jesus entered the house of God, He did the opposite, He made a whip and cleared out those who were in it to make money (Mark 11:15). Has the Lord changed His mind? –Never! He’s the same yesterday, today and forever!

The prosperity preachers are telling us that God wants us to be rich, increased with goods, and have need of nothing, but the Lord Jesus said that those who are such make Him want to vomit (Revelation 3:16-17).

The prosperity preachers are telling us to serve them and to give to their ministry, but the Lord Jesus came to serve us and gave all that He had (Mark 10:45).

The prosperity preachers are telling us to give to their ministries and that in return we will be extraordinarily blessed by God, but when a man in the Bible tried to give money to the Apostle Peter in return for the blessing of the Holy Ghost, the Apostle rebuked and condemned him (Acts 8:18-23).

The prosperity preachers are telling us that they deserve to be rich because of their great anointing and that we must give to them, but the man of God Elisha wouldn’t even accept an offering from a man healed under his ministry, and furthermore, when his servant went and collected the offering afterwards without Elisha’s consent, Elisha rebuked him and the Lord cursed him and his descendants forever (2 Kings 5).

The prosperity preachers are telling us that the world should love us because of our prosperity and desire to be like us as a result, but the Lord Jesus pronounced dreadful sorrows on those who are spoken well of by the world (Luke 6:26).

The prosperity preachers are telling us that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly and that this means that we are to have an abundance of the material things that we possess, but the Lord Jesus said that this abundant life is Eternal Life and that life doesn’t consist of the material things which a man possesses (John 10:10, Luke 12:15). Should we believe these prominent wealthy preachers, or the meek and lowly Lord Jesus?

The prosperity preachers are telling us to use God to get money, that God wants us to have more money, but Jesus said that we cannot serve both God and Mammon (Matthew 6:24). The Lord said that we will either love God and hate Mammon, or else be devoted to God and despise Mammon, but that there could be no neutrality, and no aspiring after both. So should we believe them as they serve God and money at the same time (as proven by their extravagant and luxurious lifestyles), or should we believe Jesus who despised the world’s good in order to please His Father in all things?

The prosperity preachers tell us that Abraham was rich and because of this, we should be rich too. They tell us, according to Galatians 3:14, that we are to receive the “blessing of Abraham”, and therefore, since Abraham was blessed and rich, we should be too. Yet, the Scripture makes it clear that the “blessing of Abraham” isn’t earthly riches: it’s eternal life! “That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” The blessing of Abraham is the promise of the Holy Spirit by which we’re adopted into God’s family and are saved. It is a blatant twist of Scripture to take this and turn it into a promise of earthly prosperity and riches.

Furthermore, Abraham was prosperous in this earth. That is obvious. But this doesn’t mean that every Christian should be. God had a plan to make a huge, great nation out of Abraham, and it was necessary for him to have abundance in order to fulfill the promise of God to make a great nation out of him, a nation through which the Messiah, Christ Jesus would come to save mankind from sin. Obviously God isn’t planning on making a huge and great earthly nation out of every Christian, so it isn’t necessary to give such material abundance to them. And even furthermore, it has to be remembered that Abraham didn’t even want to aim after earthly riches since he was seeking nothing of this earth, but was “looking for a city whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10). Abraham proved that he was willing to forsake everything of this world to gain God’s approval. He despised not only Mammon for the sake of his love for God, but his own son Isaac as well, as proved by the fact that he offered him upon the altar (Genesis 22). Abraham was a holy man of God that sought God’s approval no matter the cost, and despised anything this world has to offer for the sake of inheriting the eternal city of God in the age to come.

The prosperity preachers tell us that Solomon was rich and prosperous, so therefore we should be too. –But this is completely erroneous, because Solomon was in clear disobedience to the Law of God which commanded that the king of Israel not multiply much silver and gold for himself (Deuteronomy 17:15-20). Solomon disobeyed that to such an extent that in his palace, silver was regarded as mere chump change in comparison (2 Chronicles 9:20). Solomon also took many wives for himself, over 900 in fact, which was also in clear transgression of the command of God. His heart was turned away from the Lord and he even built pagan shrines to false gods in Israel (Nehemiah 13:26, 1 Kings 11:1-8). Solomon became a backslider and for a season he was in rebellion against the Lord, seeking happiness in things of this world rather than in God –this is exactly what the book of Ecclesiastes tells us. So why on earth would we want to set up Solomon as an example for the Church to follow? Dare we aspire after earthly things like he did and have our hearts turn from the Living God? Thank God that Solomon learned his lesson and came around in the end and forsook his pursuit of earthly pleasures and riches and learned to be obedient in the fear of God (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). May we learn the same thing from his example and not from falling into the same error ourselves!...
TO READ THE REST GO TO:
http://www.cristianismobiblico.com/prosperity.htm

JesusReignsForever
Oct 30th 2008, 10:09 PM
Matthew 6:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&verse=33&version=9&context=verse)
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


First believe on God and get saved recieve the HOLY GHOST and then you will prosper. Not the other way around...

New Creation
Oct 30th 2008, 10:18 PM
Matthew 6:33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=6&verse=33&version=9&context=verse)
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


First believe on God and get saved recieve the HOLY GHOST and then you will prosper. Not the other way around...

Greetings, instead of jumping back without even reading the article, why not seek God first, humble yourself, pray, study this and then respond. Grace upon you.

Lina
www.puregospeltruth.com (http://www.puregospeltruth.com)

JesusReignsForever
Oct 30th 2008, 10:20 PM
Because prosperity preaching is ridiculous and I have seen it enough to know it is backwards. You cant live in sin and prosper, you cant get by with just being a good person, and that is what Prosperity and prosperity preachers teach. My opinion. First seek ye the kingdom of God and then all those things will be added. Was Jesus walking around preaching prosperity first and then get your house in order?? Absolutely Not.

New Creation
Oct 30th 2008, 10:28 PM
Because prosperity preaching is ridiculous and I have seen it enough to know it is backwards. You cant live in sin and prosper, you cant get by with just being a good person, and that is what Prosperity and prosperity preachers teach. My opinion. First seek ye the kingdom of God and then all those things will be added. Was Jesus walking around preaching prosperity first and then get your house in order?? Absolutely Not.

Thanks for the clarification.
People can live in sin and prosper financially, we see that all over the world. The devil prospers people as we see him tempting our Lord. I know so many rich people who are wealthy, but just as much treasure they have stored up, as much sin they have stored up in their hearts.

As far as a Christian, prosperity is not the norm for everyone, its clear in scripture. That is what the article was about, coming against the false teaching that is out there, a false greedy gospel. And focusus on the clear scriptural view about mammon and how it does and does not apply to the Christian.

Grace,
Lina Urban
www.puregospeltruth.com (http://www.puregospeltruth.com)

JesusReignsForever
Oct 30th 2008, 10:30 PM
Thanks for the clarification.
People can live in sin and prosper financially, we see that all over the world. The devil prospers people as we see him tempting our Lord. I know so many rich people who are wealthy, but just as much treasure they have stored up, as much sin they have stored up in their hearts.

As far as a Christian, prosperity is not the norm for everyone, its clear in scripture. That is what the article was about, coming against the false teaching that is out there, a false greedy gospel. And focusus on the clear scriptural view about mammon and how it does and does not apply to the Christian.

Grace,
Lina Urban
www.puregospeltruth.com (http://www.puregospeltruth.com)

My pleasure My dear sister... and I did read the article it was good.:)

Prosperity
Nov 1st 2008, 05:22 AM
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Strong's definition of prosper

Euodoo (yoo-od-o'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 2137

1. to grant a prosperous and expeditious journey, to lead by a direct and easy way
2. to grant a successful issue, to cause to prosper
3. to prosper, be successful

KJV Word Usage and Count
prosper 3
have a prosperous journey 1

chad
Nov 1st 2008, 07:05 AM
Here are a few scriptures that might help.

(Luke 12:15 NIV) Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

(16) And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. (17) He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.' (18) "Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. (19) And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." (20) But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' (21) "This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."


(Mat 6:19 NIV) "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. (20) But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. (21) For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


Chad :rolleyes:

Prosperity
Nov 1st 2008, 01:02 PM
Here are a few scriptures that might help.

(Luke 12:15 NIV) Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

(16) And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. (17) He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.' (18) "Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. (19) And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." (20) But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' (21) "This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."


A good reason to sow into bountifully the Ministry, so when you are in a position to receive bountifully when you are in need.


(Mat 6:19 NIV) "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. (20) But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. (21) For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Another good reason to sow into bountifully the Ministry. It's better than FDIC Insurance.

Lamplighter
Nov 1st 2008, 10:30 PM
In Matt 6 Verse 24, Christ says "You cannot serve God and money". Notice Christ does not say Satan in this verse, he says money. The love of Money is the "root" of all evil, but not evil in itself.

The rest of the verses before verse 33 tell you what Christ promises his followers. Food, water, and clothing. Notice that money, big houses, fancy cars, etc.... are not on the list. All these things is food, water, and clothing, and nothing more.

Matt 6:33 is not talking about financial prosperity, but it is usually preached this way in church.

VerticalReality
Nov 1st 2008, 10:55 PM
Verse 24. You cannot serve God and money. Notice Christ does not say Satan in this verse, he says money. Money is the "root" of all evil, but not evil itself.

Actually, money is not the root of all evil. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil . . .

I apologize as well, Lamplighter . . .

When I posted I hit the wrong button and edited your post by mistake. Sorry about that . . .

Prosperity
Nov 1st 2008, 11:15 PM
In Matt 6 Verse 24, Christ says "You cannot serve God and money". Notice Christ does not say Satan in this verse, he says money. The love of Money is the "root" of all evil, but not evil in itself.

The rest of the verses before verse 33 tell you what Christ promises his followers. Food, water, and clothing. Notice that money, big houses, fancy cars, etc.... are not on the list. All these things is food, water, and clothing, and nothing more.

Matt 6:33 is not talking about financial prosperity, but it is usually preached this way in church.

What life style do you think god will provide for you in Heaven?

Lamplighter
Nov 1st 2008, 11:42 PM
What life style do you think god will provide for you in Heaven?

I won't be living in Heaven. I will be living in New Jerusalem here on Earth. You can read about it in Revelation chapters 21-22.

Oh, and the mansion you think you are getting in Heaven that you sing about in hymnal songs, are not your own personal mansions, as the songs say. The Greek word for mansion is (mone) which means family abode or resting place. It's not talking about your own personal giant mansion, it's talking about your father's house as John 14:2 says.

chad
Nov 2nd 2008, 12:39 AM
Hi Prosperity,

A good reason to sow into bountifully the Ministry, so when you are in a position to receive bountifully when you are in need.

An interesting idea? but I have found out lately, it's perfectly acceptable to give money to ministries and for them to take your money (No questions asked), but it seems to be too controversial to talk about how they get the money and what they do with it.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:12 AM
I won't be living in Heaven. I will be living in New Jerusalem here on Earth. You can read about it in Revelation chapters 21-22.

Oh, and the mansion you think you are getting in Heaven that you sing about in hymnal songs, are not your own personal mansions, as the songs say. The Greek word for mansion is (mone) which means family abode or resting place. It's not talking about your own personal giant mansion, it's talking about your father's house as John 14:2 says.

I guess you haven't heard the kindom of heaven has come.

So you think you will be living in a studio apartment in the city of God?

Lamplighter
Nov 2nd 2008, 02:32 AM
I guess you haven't heard the kindom of heaven has come.

So you think you will be living in a studio apartment in the city of God?

The saints will be able to come and go and stay wherever they like in the Holy City.

Just curious, do you study future Biblical prophecy?

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:15 AM
Probably more than you, but with different conclusions. I don't serve a poor or selfish God.

...but you didn't answer my question.

What will your place look like in Heaven or don't you believe that Jesus has given you one of the many mansions he prepared for us in our Father's house?

..and FYI, I don't sing very well.

Lamplighter
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:45 AM
Probably more than you, but with different conclusions. I don't serve a poor or selfish God.

...but you didn't answer my question.

What will your place look like in Heaven or don't you believe that Jesus has given you one of the many mansions he prepared for us in our Father's house?

..and FYI, I don't sing very well.


Best you read Revelation chapter 21. It describes New Jerusalem descending out of Heaven from God. There is no mention of mansions or houses in New Jerusalem.

John 14:2 -In my Father's house are many mansions-"mone" in the Greek. It does not mean giant houses, "mone" means staying, abiding, abode, and resting place.

Again, there is no need for the housing of the saints in New Jerusalem. Christ is our abode, not a giant house.

chad
Nov 2nd 2008, 05:50 AM
New Creation,

I'm not sure how to put this, but there are some in the ministry that will earn more in 1-2 years, than I will ever make in my entire life. Is it any wonder they preach prosperity?

ravi4u2
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:06 AM
An independent church in Singapore makes an annual income of $42.8 million.

Source: 5 religious groups got $130m last year (http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_171503.html)

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:10 PM
Best you read Revelation chapter 21. It describes New Jerusalem descending out of Heaven from God. There is no mention of mansions or houses in New Jerusalem.

John 14:2 -In my Father's house are many mansions-"mone" in the Greek. It does not mean giant houses, "mone" means staying, abiding, abode, and resting place.

Again, there is no need for the housing of the saints in New Jerusalem. Christ is our abode, not a giant house.

I have read Revelation chapter 21 many times and understand it. Lets let you have it your way. Is you resting place going to be a one bed room apartment or do you think Jesus meant he was going to prepare you a place to wonder in the streets of the City of God? and what do you think those streets are made of?

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:13 PM
An independent church in Singapore makes an annual income of $42.8 million.

Source: 5 religious groups got $130m last year (http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_171503.html)

Good for them if they are using it for the kiongdom of God.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:15 PM
New Creation,

I'm not sure how to put this, but there are some in the ministry that will earn more in 1-2 years, than I will ever make in my entire life. Is it any wonder they preach prosperity?


...maybe you should learn to earn more if it is an issue to you.

Vhayes
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:19 PM
Jesus had his needs provided for as did the rest of the disciples. But I don't think they were materially wealthy. A person with lots and lots of money can be so lost it's sad while a person can have very little and be quite content.

Are you advocating that any who believe in Christ will be "prosperous" materially?

chad
Nov 2nd 2008, 07:33 PM
Hi Prosperity

...maybe you should learn to earn more if it is an issue to you.

Maybe I should become a Christian TV Evangalist, then I could afford to have a multi-million dollar house, drive around in a mercedes Benz, fligh first class around the world, stay in presedential suites. That would be nice.

cwb
Nov 2nd 2008, 07:42 PM
Why are these verses in the bible?




II Cor 9:6
But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.




111 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Vhayes
Nov 2nd 2008, 08:35 PM
Why are these verses in the bible?
Philippians 4

11-Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. 12-I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.

Luke 9
57-As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, "I will follow You wherever You go."
58-And Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."

I think the Lord has different plans for each of us and different life paths He wishes us to travel. If God's desire was that all be materially wealthy, there are a whole lot of people who have been taught a false gospel all over the world. Not only that, Jesus, Peter and Paul just didn't have enough faith or the right gospel - and I think we know the answer to that one, don't we?

threebigrocks
Nov 2nd 2008, 08:39 PM
Why are these verses in the bible?

Why do they necessarily refer to worldly, physical things? The passage from 3 john 2 says "as the soul prospers". These are many of the verses which so many twist to say we ought to be blessed in wordly things if we believe. God may just take away all your wealth of the world in order to let you be a testimony because of your faith.

If all your wordly things were suddenly gone, would what is left resemble the faith we are to live by?

JesusReignsForever
Nov 2nd 2008, 08:45 PM
So you think you will be living in a studio apartment in the city of God?



ROFL :rofl: that is hilarious!! Does it matter? As long as I get to see my saviours face in peace, that is all I need. Actually I dont have to see his face I just want to hear well done my good and faithful servant. That will do!:pp You guys are too funny though! Thank you God for your sense of humour.

cwb
Nov 2nd 2008, 08:54 PM
Why do they necessarily refer to worldly, physical things? The passage from 3 john 2 says "as the soul prospers". These are many of the verses which so many twist to say we ought to be blessed in wordly things if we believe. God may just take away all your wealth of the world in order to let you be a testimony because of your faith.

If all your wordly things were suddenly gone, would what is left resemble the faith we are to live by?


sounds from your post that you think anything in the physical is "worldly". I would have to disagree with that. It would have to depend on how those physical things are used to detremine whether they are biblical or worldly. The context of the verse I quoted in II cor 9 is speaking of physical things. So again why would God even have that verse written if He did not want to bless us with physical things as well as spiritual as we bless others with the physical things He gives us.

cwb
Nov 2nd 2008, 08:57 PM
God may just take away all your wealth of the world in order to let you be a testimony because of your faith.



There wouldn't be much to take.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:00 PM
Jesus had his needs provided for as did the rest of the disciples. But I don't think they were materially wealthy. A person with lots and lots of money can be so lost it's sad while a person can have very little and be quite content.

Are you advocating that any who believe in Christ will be "prosperous" materially?

Jesus started out with a box of Gold. There is noting in the Bible that says that Jesus or his decuples were strapped for money or provision in any way. Jesus even had fish giving him money.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:01 PM
Hi Prosperity

...maybe you should learn to earn more if it is an issue to you.

Maybe I should become a Christian TV Evangalist, then I could afford to have a multi-million dollar house, drive around in a mercedes Benz, fligh first class around the world, stay in presedential suites. That would be nice.

Go for it if you think that is your calling.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:04 PM
Why are these verses in the bible?
Philippians 4

11-Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. 12-I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.

Luke 9
57-As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, "I will follow You wherever You go."
58-And Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."

I think the Lord has different plans for each of us and different life paths He wishes us to travel. If God's desire was that all be materially wealthy, there are a whole lot of people who have been taught a false gospel all over the world. Not only that, Jesus, Peter and Paul just didn't have enough faith or the right gospel - and I think we know the answer to that one, don't we?

So you think God wants some people poor, some rich, some sick and some well? Why would He want this considering he said he is not a respecter of person?

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:06 PM
Why do they necessarily refer to worldly, physical things? The passage from 3 john 2 says "as the soul prospers". These are many of the verses which so many twist to say we ought to be blessed in wordly things if we believe. God may just take away all your wealth of the world in order to let you be a testimony because of your faith.

If all your wordly things were suddenly gone, would what is left resemble the faith we are to live by?

What it is talking about is that your wealth and health are dependent upon how well your soul prospers from the enlightenment of God's word, which is up to you.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:08 PM
ROFL :rofl: that is hilarious!! Does it matter? As long as I get to see my saviours face in peace, that is all I need. Actually I dont have to see his face I just want to hear well done my good and faithful servant. That will do!:pp You guys are too funny though! Thank you God for your sense of humour.

It matters to God so it is matters to me.

Vhayes
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:08 PM
Jesus started out with a box of Gold. There is noting in the Bible that says that Jesus or his decuples were strapped for money or provision in any way. Jesus even had fish giving him money.
Prosperity, please read my post again. I stated God took care of their needs. The fish gave him money for making a required payment - to meet His need.

threebigrocks
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:12 PM
What it is talking about is that your wealth and health are dependent upon how well your soul prospers from the enlightenment of God's word, which is up to you.

So our prosperity is dependent on how much faith we've got?

ALL things physical will die. All that we know now will be destroyed and consumed leaving us only with eternity to face. So worldly things are not eternal. We do not place our faith in things which perish, but in that which is imperishable.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:15 PM
God may just take away all your wealth of the world in order to let you be a testimony because of your faith.

Testimony of faith in what? Poverty?


If all your worldly things were suddenly gone, would what is left resemble the faith we are to live by?

It would represent poverty from which many people die from the world over. It is part of the curse of the law of sin and death, not a blessing of God.

Of coarse you can't take my wealth because I have sowed it into the kingdom of God, where it is impervious to theft and maturing better than any Earthly investment. This is the fruition of this wealth in our lives is the faith by which we live.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:16 PM
So our prosperity is dependent on how much faith we've got?

ALL things physical will die. All that we know now will be destroyed and consumed leaving us only with eternity to face. So worldly things are not eternal. We do not place our faith in things which perish, but in that which is imperishable.

Have you never heard that the just shall live by faith.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 09:20 PM
Prosperity, please read my post again. I stated God took care of their needs. The fish gave him money for making a required payment - to meet His need.


I read you post and correctly responded to this:



"If God's desire was that all be materially wealthy, there are a whole lot of people who have been taught a false gospel all over the world. Not only that, Jesus, Peter and Paul just didn't have enough faith or the right gospel - and I think we know the answer to that one, don't we? "


So now go re-read my answer to you and see if it doesn't make sence to you. :D

chad
Nov 2nd 2008, 10:05 PM
No I don't think it is my calling, but it is comforting to know that some people in the Ministry earn more than the president of the United States does. :hmm:


Go for it if you think that is your calling.

chad
Nov 2nd 2008, 10:13 PM
Anyway, regarding prosperity teaching and the tithe, maybe it sould be a good idea to look at what the tithe was used for in the old testament.

It was given to support Gods Priesthood, the Levites. The Tithe was given to them as their inheritance and they themselves gave a tenth to the lord.

Note: The Levites were not to share in the inheritance of the land as they had already recieved thier inheritance from tithes in return for thier serive to god.

(Num 18:20 NIV) The LORD said to Aaron, "You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.

(Num 18:21 NIV) "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

(Num 18:22 NIV) From now on the Israelites must not go near the Tent of Meeting, or they will bear the consequences of their sin and will die.

(Num 18:23 NIV) It is the Levites who are to do the work at the Tent of Meeting and bear the responsibility for offenses against it. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. They will receive no inheritance among the Israelites.

(Num 18:24 NIV) Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD. That is why I said concerning them: 'They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.'"

(Num 18:25 NIV) The LORD said to Moses,

(Num 18:26 NIV) "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord's offering.


Israel’s Inheritance


(Num 26:51 NIV) The total number of the men of Israel was 601,730.

(Num 26:52 NIV) The LORD said to Moses,

(Num 26:53 NIV) "The land is to be allotted to them as an inheritance based on the number of names.

(Num 26:62 NIV) All the male Levites a month old or more numbered 23,000. They were not counted along with the other Israelites because they received no inheritance among them.


The Tithe was also used to give to the poor and needy.

(Deu 14:27 NIV) And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

(Deu 14:28 NIV) At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns,

(Deu 14:29 NIV) so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

(Deu 15:4 NIV) However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you,

(Deu 15:5 NIV) if only you fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.



The Israelites tithed so that they could take care of the Levites who were priests, so they could serve in the tent of the lord and offer sacrifices for sin, under the law of Moses.

When Jesus died, he fulfilled the law and made a new covenant as described in Hebrews. He became our ever lasting high priest and set us free from the law. Jesus fulfilled the law so that sacrifices would no longer be required.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 10:15 PM
No I don't think it is my calling, but it is comforting to know that some people in the Ministry earn more than the president of the United States does. :hmm:

Yes it is comforting. I am hoping to earn more than the president someday.

Actually many ministers, including TV preachers are on a salary, which is much smaller than some would think.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 10:18 PM
Anyway, regarding prosperity teaching and the tithe, maybe it sould be a good idea to look at what the tithe was used for in the old testament.

It was given to support Gods Priesthood, the Levites. The Tithe was given to them as their inheritance and they themselves gave a tenth to the lord.

Note: The Levites were not to share in the inheritance of the land as they had already recieved thier inheritance from tithes in return for thier serive to god.

(Num 18:20 NIV) The LORD said to Aaron, "You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.

(Num 18:21 NIV) "I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.

(Num 18:22 NIV) From now on the Israelites must not go near the Tent of Meeting, or they will bear the consequences of their sin and will die.

(Num 18:23 NIV) It is the Levites who are to do the work at the Tent of Meeting and bear the responsibility for offenses against it. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. They will receive no inheritance among the Israelites.

(Num 18:24 NIV) Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD. That is why I said concerning them: 'They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.'"

(Num 18:25 NIV) The LORD said to Moses,

(Num 18:26 NIV) "Speak to the Levites and say to them: 'When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord's offering.


Israel’s Inheritance


(Num 26:51 NIV) The total number of the men of Israel was 601,730.

(Num 26:52 NIV) The LORD said to Moses,

(Num 26:53 NIV) "The land is to be allotted to them as an inheritance based on the number of names.

(Num 26:62 NIV) All the male Levites a month old or more numbered 23,000. They were not counted along with the other Israelites because they received no inheritance among them.


The Tithe was also used to give to the poor and needy.

(Deu 14:27 NIV) And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

(Deu 14:28 NIV) At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns,

(Deu 14:29 NIV) so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.

(Deu 15:4 NIV) However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you,

(Deu 15:5 NIV) if only you fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.



The Israelites tithed so that they could take care of the Levites who were priests, so they could serve in the tent of the lord and offer sacrifices for sin, under the law of Moses.

When Jesus died, he fulfilled the law and made a new covenant as described in Hebrews. He became our ever lasting high priest and set us free from the law. Jesus fulfilled the law so that sacrifices would no longer be required.

Very good analysis of the tithe...

...giving (not tithing) is a tenate of the New Covenant.

chad
Nov 2nd 2008, 11:02 PM
Prosperity,

I know not all in the ministry earn huge amounts of money. I know of some who serve in the ministry who live by faith. They have no regular income.

There are others who have no money at all, and others who just scrape
by.

Prosperity is much better than poverty, and having wealth is much better
than being in poverty. I have heard some prosperity preachers, preach tithing not giving. And they preach that you will come under the curse of God if you do not tithe.



Very good analysis of the tithe...

...giving (not tithing) is a tenate of the New Covenant.

Prosperity
Nov 2nd 2008, 11:56 PM
Prosperity,

I know not all in the ministry earn huge amounts of money. I know of some who serve in the ministry who live by faith. They have no regular income.

There are others who have no money at all, and others who just scrape
by.

Prosperity is much better than poverty, and having wealth is much better
than being in poverty. I have heard some prosperity preachers, preach tithing not giving. And they preach that you will come under the curse of God if you do not tithe.


I am not disagreeing with you on this point, but I have not fond any Preacher who does not preach tithing is a New Covenant requirement, which I do not believe. I do believe that most Preachers do not believe people will give unless the Preacher uses the concept of tithing as a lever. So this puts me at odds with the tithing issue, but I still believe in the prosperity message, but substituting giving for tithing.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:18 AM
I have heard some prosperity preachers, preach tithing not giving. And they preach that you will come under the curse of God if you do not tithe.


I also have heard some "prosperity preachers" preach that and agree with you that is bad and a serious problem in some churches. However, I have also heard some preach so much against the "prosperity preachers" that it almost seems that these "anti prosperity gospel preachers" no longer believe II cor 9:6 is a valid verse:



But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.


I kinda feel that these two extremes (the "prosperity gospel" and the "anti prosperity gospel") being taught in the church is becoming a serious problem.

threebigrocks
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:14 AM
Testimony of faith in what? Poverty?



It would represent poverty from which many people die from the world over. It is part of the curse of the law of sin and death, not a blessing of God.

Of coarse you can't take my wealth because I have sowed it into the kingdom of God, where it is impervious to theft and maturing better than any Earthly investment. This is the fruition of this wealth in our lives is the faith by which we live.


That in despite of whatever condition we live in this world - our faith stands strong. It does affect people the world over, but how many have faith to endure knowing we have riches not of this world?


Have you never heard that the just shall live by faith.

Yes, and that is my point Prosperity. My points I've made were in that we are here temporarily, and God will provide enough for today. If we go to bed and we aren't hungry, are warm when it's cold, we have clothes to put on, and our needs have been met by the slimest of margins - than all is good. We do indeed live by faith. Wealth as the world sees it doesn't mean much when we who believe have far greater riches.

Can we be wealthy and fully submitted to God, doing what is pleasing to Him? Yes. Abraham was, so was Lazarus. But we aren't given wealth in proportion to our faith. Look at Job.

I think we agree more than it seems we disagree.

Lamplighter
Nov 3rd 2008, 04:13 AM
The problem with using 2 Cor 9:6 as reaping and sowing for money like most preachers do, is that they never finish reading the next several verses. In verse 10, it tells you what you increase, and it is not money.

You increase in the fruits of your righteousness, not in money, for sowing into the ministry of Christ.

chad
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:07 AM
I tried to look up the word tithe or tithe(s), tithing in the New Testament, and it does not appear anywhere in the New Testament.

I believe that the church should prosper and christians should prosper, becuase if we walk in the ways of God, God will bless us and will bless the 'work' of our hands.

(Deu 2:7 NIV) The LORD your God has blessed you in all the work of your hands. He has watched over your journey through this vast desert. These forty years the LORD your God has been with you, and you have not lacked anything.

I find giving, in the new testament. Some churches still believe in tithing, but I can not find in the new testament - where it says to continue this. The Apostles did not mention the word tithing in thier teachings.



I am not disagreeing with you on this point, but I have not fond any Preacher who does not preach tithing is a New Covenant requirement, which I do not believe. I do believe that most Preachers do not believe people will give unless the Preacher uses the concept of tithing as a lever. So this puts me at odds with the tithing issue, but I still believe in the prosperity message, but substituting giving for tithing.

Lyndie
Nov 3rd 2008, 11:25 PM
I also have heard some "prosperity preachers" preach that and agree with you that is bad and a serious problem in some churches. However, I have also heard some preach so much against the "prosperity preachers" that it almost seems that these "anti prosperity gospel preachers" no longer believe II cor 9:6 is a valid verse:

But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.


I kinda feel that these two extremes (the "prosperity gospel" and the "anti prosperity gospel") being taught in the church is becoming a serious problem.

I agree with your statements here. Anti-prosperity is getting just as bad.

But if we look at this verse-
29 Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel's sake,
30 but he shall recieve a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and bretheren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and land, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

In verse 30 it seems to me to be two different times. Does that mean we will all be rich? No, but I believe this is as much a material promise as much as spiritual, even though some people believe every blessing in the bible is only spiritual.
I gave up many friends and aquaintances since becoming saved because I knew they were not good for my spiritual walk. However, I have seen this blessing in my own life now through the friends and spiritual parents and fellowship I have become a part of since being saved.

God has belssed me many times with material things, however, God won't give it to me if I cannot be responsible with it either. So let's not get too far to one side of the pro/anti prosperity issue. There are many factors that come into play.

theBelovedDisciple
Nov 4th 2008, 12:00 AM
God prospers each one of His children different.... and He creates the rich and the poor according to Proverbs.... trying to put God into a prosperity formula or make Him out like a vending machine or bank teller machine is foolishness.... the sad thing is that alot of what you see today is just that..

they teach about 'sowing'.. sow your seed of money.. 25, 50 1000 dollars...

Jesus told us to 'sow'.. but that His seed is the 'Word' of God... not money.... its pretty black and white...

Paul instructed to give out of a cheeful heart... with the right intentions... giving not under condemnation or grudgingly...... but out of a cheerful heart...

Peter talks about a time coming when many false teachers and prophets will come on the scene and deceive many thru their lies... making merchandise of people thru covetousness.... using feigned words........ to enhance and make their teachings appear as 'light'..

Thats the root of the problem... right there.. greed.......

and folks we are there.... here is Peters words..

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Lamplighter
Nov 4th 2008, 12:47 AM
Nobody is saying that Christians can't be wealthy with money, what we are saying is that scripture never promises that Christians will be wealthy with money by converting to Christ and obeying God.

If being a Christian was the answer to becoming rich with money, then wicked men would never be rich, and Christians would never be poor.

But we see just the opposite throughout history. In the last 2000 years, most Christians have been poor, while wicked men(sometimes in the Church) were wealthy with money.

It's Ok to be rich with money and be a Christian, but Christianity is never used a device to get money in NT scripture. Money in NT scripture is always used to further the kingdom of God, not to live a lavish lifestyle.

chad
Nov 4th 2008, 06:41 AM
I did a small study in the new testament and found some verses regarding the giving of gifts and offerings to the church. I still can not find anything in the new testament about the early Christian church regarding tithing.


Gifts to the Church

(Acts 11:27 NIV) During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.

(Acts 11:28 NIV) One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)

(Acts 11:29 NIV) The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea.

(Acts 11:30 NIV) This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.


Offerings


(2 Cor 8:17 NIV) For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative.

(2 Cor 8:18 NIV) And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel.

(2 Cor 8:19 NIV) What is more, he was chosen by the churches to accompany us as we carry the offering, which we administer in order to honor the Lord himself and to show our eagerness to help.

(2 Cor 8:20 NIV) We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift.


Sowing and Giving.

(2 Cor 9:5 NIV) So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.

(2 Cor 9:6 NIV) Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

(2 Cor 9:7 NIV) Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.




Blessing from Giving


(2 Cor 9:10 NIV) Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness.

(2 Cor 9:11 NIV) You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

(2 Cor 9:12 NIV) This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God.

(2 Cor 9:13 NIV) Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.



God Bless


Chad :rolleyes:

Back2Front
Nov 4th 2008, 06:45 AM
So I barely even read the OP.

Save the other 27 pages of this thread.

So lets go here;

It's not peoples concept of God that needs changing...

It's peoples concept of money.

Emanate
Nov 4th 2008, 07:36 PM
I also have heard some "prosperity preachers" preach that and agree with you that is bad and a serious problem in some churches. However, I have also heard some preach so much against the "prosperity preachers" that it almost seems that these "anti prosperity gospel preachers" no longer believe II cor 9:6 is a valid verse:



I kinda feel that these two extremes (the "prosperity gospel" and the "anti prosperity gospel") being taught in the church is becoming a serious problem.


Um, being anti-prosperity gospel is not being anti-prosperity. It is teaching that offsets the erroneous teaching that you have whatever you confess and you give to get. There are some who are anti prosperity, but that is not anti-prosperity gospel. The Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith/Name it-Claim it/blab it-grab it deception is one that is sweeping the body of Messiah and should be met head on and turned away.

Prosperity
Nov 4th 2008, 07:51 PM
Um, being anti-prosperity gospel is not being anti-prosperity. It is teaching that offsets the erroneous teaching that you have whatever you confess and you give to get. There are some who are anti prosperity, but that is not anti-prosperity gospel. The Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith/Name it-Claim it/blab it-grab it deception is one that is sweeping the body of Messiah and should be met head on and turned away.


So your prosperity beliefs aren't based on the Gospel?

Prosperity
Nov 4th 2008, 07:55 PM
I did a small study in the new testament and found some verses regarding the giving of gifts and offerings to the church. I still can not find anything in the new testament about the early Christian church regarding tithing.


Gifts to the Church

(Acts 11:27 NIV) During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.

(Acts 11:28 NIV) One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)

(Acts 11:29 NIV) The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea.

(Acts 11:30 NIV) This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.


Offerings


(2 Cor 8:17 NIV) For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative.

(2 Cor 8:18 NIV) And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel.

(2 Cor 8:19 NIV) What is more, he was chosen by the churches to accompany us as we carry the offering, which we administer in order to honor the Lord himself and to show our eagerness to help.

(2 Cor 8:20 NIV) We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift.


Sowing and Giving.

(2 Cor 9:5 NIV) So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.

(2 Cor 9:6 NIV) Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

(2 Cor 9:7 NIV) Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.




Blessing from Giving


(2 Cor 9:10 NIV) Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness.

(2 Cor 9:11 NIV) You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

(2 Cor 9:12 NIV) This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God.

(2 Cor 9:13 NIV) Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.



God Bless


Chad :rolleyes:

Thank you for this.

Emanate
Nov 4th 2008, 09:50 PM
So your prosperity beliefs aren't based on the Gospel?


My prosperity beliefs are not based on my confession.

chad
Nov 4th 2008, 11:58 PM
Your Welcome.



God Bless

Chad :rolleyes:




Thank you for this.

paidforinfull
Nov 5th 2008, 12:42 AM
Hi there - I wrote a poem a while ago concerning 'prosperity preachers'. Mind if I post it here?

God bless.

The Parson
Nov 5th 2008, 12:49 AM
Mind if I put my :2cents: in?

I've heard a great deal of prosperity preaching where I am. Shoot, the seat for the much of the Word of Faith stuff is right out my back door down in Cleveland, Tennessee. A member of my family is so deep into it it ain't funny. Why isn't it funny? Well for one thing this family member has planted so much "seed money" into this ministry that they haven't very much of their own to buy groceries. Their heart seems in the right place but now they are convinced that their lack of positive confession is the reason they live in poverty.

Shoot, the reason they are in poverty is that they gave all their money to the ones wearing diamond studded tie clasps and driving Mercedes. Bee's knee's Louise, what's wrong with this picture folks.

And lets look at this "positive confession" thingey!!! Positive confession is part of the gospel they preach. Historically, you never even hear of such a teaching until the middle of the 20th century. I have a saying. It goes like this: "If it was unheard of by the brethren over the past 2 millenium, take a second look. It comes from another gospel!". Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Positive Confession is said to mean "to verbalize positive thought" and speak it out loud. Isn't that the methods that witch doctors and shamans use in incantations? Not pointing a finger, just asking! Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

It's also said that if you quote God's Word back at Him, He is OBLIGATED to do exactly as you ask? What about God's will in the matter? That doesn't seem to be taken into account. Aren't we supposed to actually say if the Lord is willing??? James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Just a thought!

Lyndie
Nov 5th 2008, 12:57 AM
Mind if I put my :2cents: in?

I've heard a great deal of prosperity preaching where I am. Shoot, the seat for the much of the Word of Faith stuff is right out my back door down in Cleveland, Tennessee. A member of my family is so deep into it it ain't funny. Why isn't it funny? Well for one thing this family member has planted so much "seed money" into this ministry that they haven't very much of their own to buy groceries. Their heart seems in the right place but now they are convinced that their lack of positive confession is the reason they live in poverty.

Shoot, the reason they are in poverty is that they gave all their money to the ones wearing diamond studded tie clasps and driving Mercedes. Bee's knee's Louise, what's wrong with this picture folks.

And lets look at this "positive confession" thingey!!! Positive confession is part of the gospel they preach. Historically, you never even hear of such a teaching until the middle of the 20th century. I have a saying. It goes like this: "If it was unheard of by the brethren over the past 2 millenium, take a second look. It comes from another gospel!". Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Positive Confession is said to mean "to verbalize positive thought" and speak it out loud. Isn't that the methods that witch doctors and shamans use in incantations? Not pointing a finger, just asking! Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

It's also said that if you quote God's Word back at Him, He is OBLIGATED to do exactly as you ask? What about God's will in the matter? That doesn't seem to be taken into account. Aren't we supposed to actually say if the Lord is willing??? James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Just a thought!


But it depends on how you or someone else define positive confession. I don't look at it as 'name it claim it'. When I am feeling down or hopeless, why can't I say, out loud, as a positive confession, "God loves me. God had a plan for my life"? I see nothing wrong with that.

The Parson
Nov 5th 2008, 01:07 AM
But it depends on how you or someone else define positive confession. I don't look at it as 'name it claim it'. When I am feeling down or hopeless, why can't I say, out loud, as a positive confession, "God loves me. God had a plan for my life"? I see nothing wrong with that.Lord have mercy Lyndie, there is nothing wrong with that my dear friend. It's when we intentionally make demands of God is really my point. Sure we go boldly into the throne room of God but we have to remember we are in the presence of a Holy and Righteous God. Not someone to be taken lightly.

Lamplighter
Nov 5th 2008, 04:18 AM
Lord have mercy Lyndie, there is nothing wrong with that my dear friend. It's when we intentionally make demands of God is really my point. Sure we go boldly into the throne room of God but we have to remember we are in the presence of a Holy and Righteous God. Not someone to be taken lightly.

Exactly my brother.

God is not our cosmic bell hop, that we can order around if we slip a dollar in his hand.

God takes orders from no man. God does not need a man's permission to do anything.

And before anybody says, God need permission to enter your heart, that's a big no. Scripture is very clear that God saves who he wants to save(predestination because of God's foreknowledge: Romans 8:29-30), and no man has the power to stop god from doing anything. God's power is not limited to anything, including the salvation or destruction of any man. God doesn't need a man's faith permission to do anything.

Prosperity
Nov 5th 2008, 05:11 PM
Exactly my brother.

God is not our cosmic bell hop, that we can order around if we slip a dollar in his hand.

God takes orders from no man. God does not need a man's permission to do anything.

And before anybody says, God need permission to enter your heart, that's a big no. Scripture is very clear that God saves who he wants to save(predestination because of God's foreknowledge: Romans 8:29-30), and no man has the power to stop god from doing anything. God's power is not limited to anything, including the salvation or destruction of any man. God doesn't need a man's faith permission to do anything.

Then why bother to witness to people, give you life to Jesus or to even read the Bible because God will just override people' personal wills to either save or condemn them. If this is so, then why didn't he just stop Adam from sinning in the first place.

I have never heard anyone who believes that God wants you wealth rather than poor, claim that God was a cosmic bell hop. A judge would call your use of the term cosmic bell hop" as inflaming the jury. Hmmmmmmmm

markdrums
Nov 5th 2008, 05:37 PM
Mind if I put my :2cents: in?

I've heard a great deal of prosperity preaching where I am. Shoot, the seat for the much of the Word of Faith stuff is right out my back door down in Cleveland, Tennessee. A member of my family is so deep into it it ain't funny. Why isn't it funny? Well for one thing this family member has planted so much "seed money" into this ministry that they haven't very much of their own to buy groceries. Their heart seems in the right place but now they are convinced that their lack of positive confession is the reason they live in poverty.

Shoot, the reason they are in poverty is that they gave all their money to the ones wearing diamond studded tie clasps and driving Mercedes. Bee's knee's Louise, what's wrong with this picture folks.

And lets look at this "positive confession" thingey!!! Positive confession is part of the gospel they preach. Historically, you never even hear of such a teaching until the middle of the 20th century. I have a saying. It goes like this: "If it was unheard of by the brethren over the past 2 millenium, take a second look. It comes from another gospel!". Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Positive Confession is said to mean "to verbalize positive thought" and speak it out loud. Isn't that the methods that witch doctors and shamans use in incantations? Not pointing a finger, just asking! Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

It's also said that if you quote God's Word back at Him, He is OBLIGATED to do exactly as you ask? What about God's will in the matter? That doesn't seem to be taken into account. Aren't we supposed to actually say if the Lord is willing??? James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Just a thought!


Well, all I can say about your "thought" is, GOOD THINKING!!! :D
The whole "Name it & Claim it" theology is hideously flawed.
Great post!

Not to mention, from a fellow Tennessean!!
;)

Prosperity
Nov 5th 2008, 06:44 PM
Well, all I can say about your "thought" is, GOOD THINKING!!! :D
The whole "Name it & Claim it" theology is hideously flawed.
Great post!

Not to mention, from a fellow Tennessean!!
;)

Says you.......

The Parson
Nov 5th 2008, 06:46 PM
Well, all I can say about your "thought" is, GOOD THINKING!!! :D
The whole "Name it & Claim it" theology is hideously flawed.
Great post!

Not to mention, from a fellow Tennessean!!
;)So there is hope yet for Tennessee brother. Really though, the entire theology at times places man as equal or over the Lord God and that is where I especially take issue.

chad
Nov 5th 2008, 07:00 PM
I now know where the compulsion to tithing comes from. It originated in the Catholic church and has been passed down from century to century.

Catholic Giving and Tithing Guide

Giving and tithing is not a widely discussed topic in the Catholic Church. However, it is important for all parishoners to understand that giving is not optional (it is actually one of the six precepts of the Church). It is also important to realize that giving must be done responsiblity: if a priest, bishop or 'Catholic' organization engages in activities or teachings contrary to the Pope of Magisterium, then they should not be supported.

The guideline is a starting point to responsible giving. All numeric references are from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) unless otherwise noted.

Apostolic Constitutions (4th Century) XXX
I the same make a constitution in regard to first-fruits and tithes. Let all first-fruits be brought to the bishop, and to the presbyters. and to the deacons, for their maintenance; but let all the tithe be for the maintenance of the rest of the clergy, and of the virgins and widows, and of those under the trial of poverty. For the first-fruits belong to the priests, and to those deacons that minister to them.

Didache (2nd Century)
In like manner a true teacher is also worthy, like the workman, of his food.

Council of Nicea AD 325
Of the synod of Archbishops, which meets once a year with the Patriarch, and of its utility; also of the collection to be made for the support of the patriarch throughout the provinces and places subject to the patriarch.

Notice they quote the Didache - the teaching of the disciples. But isn't this book part of the Apocrypha and not Cannon?


The compulsion and reasons for tithing and giving ... can be found at the below webpage. http://www.memorare.com/reform/giving.html


Chad :hmm:

markdrums
Nov 5th 2008, 07:20 PM
Says you.......

Yeah, That IS what I say.... and so do MANY more people who understand truthful doctrine.

Do you have a disagreeing view?
If so, What is it? & Why?

Emanate
Nov 5th 2008, 07:22 PM
Says you.......


Yes, says many people. This one included.

The Parson
Nov 5th 2008, 07:26 PM
Says you.......Prosperity, "Says you" is not a way to discuss matters on this board. Let me suggest you put forward why you think it isn't flawed and we can discuss it from there.

markdrums
Nov 5th 2008, 07:35 PM
So there is hope yet for Tennessee brother. Really though, the entire theology at times places man as equal or over the Lord God and that is where I especially take issue.


That's a Big 10-4!!

;)

This particular subject is in the same genre as the Metaphysical / New Age stuff. (Or along the lines of Law of Attraction)

To think WE can "speak" something & cause it to be, is definitely incorrect.

There's only ONE person who can speak and create something...... And it's HIS words that I test everything with.

Emanate
Nov 5th 2008, 08:08 PM
Prosperity, "Says you" is not a way to discuss matters on this board. Let me suggest you put forward why you think it isn't flawed and we can discuss it from there.

says Parson.....

paidforinfull
Nov 5th 2008, 10:06 PM
Hi there - I wrote a poem a while ago concerning 'prosperity preachers'. Mind if I post it here?

God bless.

I don't know if anybody noticed my previous post - anyway, since nobody seems to have a problem with it, I decided to go ahead and post my poem here. I know it is kind of harsh, but this is a subject close to my heart since so many of God's children get abused by pastors/ministers/evangelists promising them health and wealth (prosperity teachers).

God bless.

Shepherds in Wolves' Clothing
by Belinda van Rensburg

Why is it that there are those who will use
God's Word which they distort and abuse?
Charlatans with their gold chains and rings -
Selling bottled water and other 'blessed' things.

You prepare your traps with your unholy bait,
For unwary souls you lie in wait.
to relieve them from their hard-earned cash
to add to the rest of your ill-gotten stash.

You promise them healing and perfect health
and tenfold returns and untold wealth.
You prey on the weak and the souls in pain
and you do all this for power and gain.

Beware you false shepherds; you mislead the flock
But God is not One Whom you can mock.
Do not think for a moment that you can win;
For you'll be called to account for your terrible sin.

You will be removed; exposed and defrocked,
for you have cheated and lied and mocked.
Before you know it you will be gone,
and the flock will be led by God's own Son.

© 2008

Meto
Nov 5th 2008, 10:09 PM
:idea:

That's a pretty good read, well done brother. I'd be there for ages typing all that.
It made me think of Paul 1 Corinthians chpt 1 v26 - v31.
The true church will be mostly from poorer people of the world, not just poor in spirit, he meant just plain poor (battling workers). And James calls to impartiality because some among them were wealthy and their attitude was harming fellowship. James 2:5, Listen my beloved brethren has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom of those who love him. It goes on to chastise any who consider themselves well-off to be careful that prideful discrimination does not lead them astray.
Their problem is their money, it creates pride and a haughty spirit which is bent on being partial because of self importance.
As for church leaders with the prosperity, money spirit, it says you will know them by their fruits, these false shepherds that exploit the flock and love factionalism.
Whatever is in the heart, whatever is treasured, if its' money then thats' what they'll default to every time, they can't stop talking about it, these false shepherds!
They are represented by the money changers in the temple and spoken and spoken of in the book of Jude vs11.
We are called not to get but to give out, so others see the glory of christ through our generosity not admire our prosperity, that only leads to the worship of money.
God bless from Australia
:pray: :)

Prosperity
Nov 5th 2008, 10:26 PM
Prosperity, "Says you" is not a way to discuss matters on this board. Let me suggest you put forward why you think it isn't flawed and we can discuss it from there.

So let me better define "says you" since your inquiring mind want to know.

You are misrepresenting Word-of-Faith teachings and I see no point id discussing it with someone who is so obviously entrenched in his beliefs. ...but understand, you do not speak for Christians or for God on this issue.

In fact, whether you know it or not, you are simply laying out a doctrine for poverty and financial failure.

The Bible is clear that God rewards giving to the ministy and to the poor, and that it is His will for us to prosper and be in health.

That is about all I have for you.

Emanate
Nov 5th 2008, 10:45 PM
So let me better define "says you" since your inquiring mind want to know.

You are misrepresenting Word-of-Faith teachings and I see no point id discussing it with someone who is so obviously entrenched in his beliefs. ...but understand, you do not speak for Christians or for God on this issue.

In fact, whether you know it or not, you are simply laying out a doctrine for poverty and financial failure.

The Bible is clear that God rewards giving to the ministy and to the poor, and that it is His will for us to prosper and be in health.

That is about all I have for you.


It seems you do not have a proper knowledge of what Word of Faith teachings are. I myself used to follow some of these teachers. Word of Faith teaches that whatever you have faith to receive (faith that comes by confessing) you will receive it. That is simply not the case. God does bless a cheerful giver who helps the needy, but the blessing does not always equal money.

They also teach that if you give to a ministry (only one that teaches Word of Faith) you will receive money back from God. Another falsehood.

chad
Nov 6th 2008, 12:02 AM
I think some prosperity preachers compare thier pay with that of some CEO's who run companies in the world. (Although, I would never compare Gods church to a company.)

The amount they are paid is relatively small compared to the amount in donations and gifts that they recieve. If you really want to know how much they are paid, it's not hard to find on the Internet. Google will take you there.


Chad. :rolleyes:



I don't know if anybody noticed my previous post - anyway, since nobody seems to have a problem with it, I decided to go ahead and post my poem here. I know it is kind of harsh, but this is a subject close to my heart since so many of God's children get abused by pastors/ministers/evangelists promising them health and wealth (prosperity teachers).

God bless.

Shepherds in Wolves' Clothing
by Belinda van Rensburg

Why is it that there are those who will use
God's Word which they distort and abuse?
Charlatans with their gold chains and rings -
Selling bottled water and other 'blessed' things.

You prepare your traps with your unholy bait,
For unwary souls you lie in wait.
to relieve them from their hard-earned cash
to add to the rest of your ill-gotten stash.

You promise them healing and perfect health
and tenfold returns and untold wealth.
You prey on the weak and the souls in pain
and you do all this for power and gain.

Beware you false shepherds; you mislead the flock
But God is not One Whom you can mock.
Do not think for a moment that you can win;
For you'll be called to account for your terrible sin.

You will be removed; exposed and defrocked,
for you have cheated and lied and mocked.
Before you know it you will be gone,
and the flock will be led by God's own Son.

© 2008

Lamplighter
Nov 6th 2008, 04:17 AM
You are misrepresenting Word-of-Faith teachings and I see no point id discussing it with someone who is so obviously entrenched in his beliefs. ...but understand, you do not speak for Christians or for God on this issue.


He's not misrepresenting word of faith at all. He's right on. Here is their doctrinal teachings.

It requires 'revelation knowledge'.

Like the gnostic heresies all through the ages, Word-of-Faith needs special knowledge in order to be effective. Leaders see themselves as having a commission to bring new spiritual revelation to the Body, and they condemn 'sense-knowledge' as inadequate. In this scheme, it is not sin and disobedience that causes us to fail, but ignorance of the Word. Moreover, this revelation knowledge is limited to the few who can receive it; the less intelligent are at a disadvantage. This is elitism.




It makes the Almighty God and Creator a weak 'faith-being' who is at the mercy of His own universal laws.

Although Word-of-Faith ministers speak of God in a personal way, they treat Him like an impersonal 'energy source' with 'forces' that can be operated by the use of laws - laws which even God has to obey in order to create and run His universe. God, they say, has left the control of the planet in man's hands and is powerless to intervene without a covenant partner. God's omnipotence and sovereignty is damaged by these teachings.




It makes the Divine Son of God into a born-again man who had to die in Hell to pay the price for our treason.

Jesus, according to Word-of-Faith doctrine, discarded His divine powers and walked earth as a mere man filled with The Spirit. He had to use the Word and the laws of faith to do miracles. When He died, His blood did not atone, but He had to take upon Himself the very sin-nature of the Devil, causing His spirit to die, and suffer three days and nights of hellish torment AS A MAN before the Father gave the command for Him to be re-created as a re-born man. Thus, they say, Jesus was just the first of many sons, the Pattern for us all to follow.




It elevates man to equality with Jesus.

A consequence of the 'Jesus-died-spiritually' doctrine is that all born-again Christians stand in the same place of power and authority as Jesus - not by virtue of their unity with Him, but in themselves, as men filled with the Spirit. This would mean that we have already been resurrected from the dead and it only remains for us to gain 'knowledge' of our new condition in order to discard the trappings of the fleshly body and begin living as spiritual gods on earth!
Thus, the Christian walk is one of education in using the same spiritual laws as Jesus in order to dominate the circumstances and do miracles. In Word-of-Faith teaching, believers do not depend on God's own power, nor submit to His will, but feel they have the right to develop their own powers, and to discover the laws governing creation and dominion on the earth.




It makes man a god.

To understand the special position that Word-of-Faith gives to man, we need to know their interpretation of the Creation. In their teaching, man HAS NO NATURE OF HIS OWN but takes his nature from his 'lord'. When God was his Lord, then man had a divine nature - for he was created as god of the earth, they say - but after man's fall, he took the sin-nature of the Devil and became like Satan. (All this, of course, is contrary to scripture). So, Word-of Faith believers would reason that a born-again man has regained his divine nature. Thus, he is entitled to use the attributes of his divinity, such as creative powers and domination of the environment etc.




It makes the redemption into a restoration of dominion for mankind.

Word-of-Faith teachers stress the loss of dominion over the earth, not sin, as the root problem. So, salvation becomes a matter of re-discovering one's place of godhood and learning to rule as kings on earth. The role Jesus had to play in redemption was that of a substitute Adam, coming to earth to fulfill all that Adam failed to do, demonstrating the possibilities of dominion, and then taking Adam's place in Hell to let mankind 'off the hook'. The worship given to Jesus by Word-of-Faith believers is more from a sense of gratitude than a recognition of His divinity. It also misses the whole point of redemption: that Jesus HIMSELF is the Life and Salvation of mankind and that we are only saved in union with Him.




Its goal is the transformation of the earth by spiritual dominion.

Because Word-of-Faith believers see themselves as having returned to their god-like dominion of the earth, they foresee the time coming when - by sheer force of numbers, probably - all mankind has to bow the knee to God. They teach that all the wealth of the world will flow to the Church, and that the laws, government and entire social structure of the world system will have to change. Despite scriptural warnings of apostasy and increasing wickedness in the end-times, they foresee a great victory for the Church in the future, as the Spirit sweeps millions into the 'kingdom' on earth. Whether or not they claim to believe in the end-times plan of Revelation, the Rapture, the Millennium or any of these things, they still seem to be able to fit a scheme of global Church unity and triumph into the plan of the ages.




It replaces prayer with confession, and God's will with the manipulation of 'forces'.

Word-of Faith teaches Christians to draw upon powerful 'forces' that reside in the human spirit - such as the force of faith - to bring certain laws into operation. They emphasize the word (not the Son of God, but the scriptures) as the power used to operate all these spiritual laws. So, learning and confessing the Word continually is the method used to obtain anything we want. This self-rule leads to pride and greed. But a Christian must deny himself and submit to the entire will of God, as revealed moment-by-moment by the Holy Spirit.




It denies the reality of sin and sickness.

Word-of-Faith ministers teach that the only true reality is spiritual, and the earthly senses are deceptive. Thus, believers are led to deny that they are ill, poor or in any way below par. They are taught to overcome adversity by confessing a suitable 'positive' scripture, instead of seeking God's guidance. Also, the reality of sin, and the need for forgiveness is glossed over by teaching that a simple confession of the Lordship of Jesus will effect a change of lifestyle.




It focuses on self and the world instead of God and Heaven.

The emphasis in Word-of-Faith doctrine is all on success, prosperity, advancement, gain, health and strength. There is little compassion for those who fail to come up to these exacting standards. Any adversity is said to be a 'lack of faith' to confess the appropriate Word. This is a great misunderstanding of the wisdom of God, and His plan to bring his children to glory, for if we refuse to share in the trials, setbacks and persecutions of Jesus, we are not ready to share His glorification. [Rom 8:17]
Some of the Word-of-Faith teachers and ministries have been the worst offenders in bringing the Name and the cause of Jesus Christ into disrepute. Ministries that emphasize prosperity have ended up in greed, manipulating believers into giving money they can little afford. Over-emphasized teaching about God's healing has led to extravagant claims for miracles that have been exposed as hyperbole and sham. Doctrines about man's godhood and superhuman abilities have led to arrogance, self-will and the use of psychic powers to perform miracles instead of a simple dependency on the Holy Spirit. Also, teachings about faith have become rituals and formulas for producing instant result; and many who could not or would not go down this road were derided and rejected as "having no faith".
Legions of hurt people have testified to their bad experiences, both personally and corporately, with Word-of-Faith extremes and excesses. Indeed, the very root of this teaching is bad, coming as it does from Christian Science and the metaphysical schools of thought.

Emanate
Nov 6th 2008, 01:03 PM
I think some prosperity preachers compare thier pay with that of some CEO's who run companies in the world. (Although, I would never compare Gods church to a company.)

The amount they are paid is relatively small compared to the amount in donations and gifts that they recieve. If you really want to know how much they are paid, it's not hard to find on the Internet. Google will take you there.


Chad. :rolleyes:


Need a new private jet because the old private jet is not modern enough fits over the top in my book. I saw Jesse Duplantis in Levelland, Texas where he proudly declared he had never worn the same suit twice.

chad
Nov 7th 2008, 08:13 PM
I have been googling the internet about prosperity preachers. It's amazing what you can find sometimes.


http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html (http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html)






Need a new private jet because the old private jet is not modern enough fits over the top in my book. I saw Jesse Duplantis in Levelland, Texas where he proudly declared he had never worn the same suit twice.

paidforinfull
Nov 7th 2008, 11:15 PM
I have been googling the internet about prosperity preachers. It's amazing what you can find sometimes.


http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html (http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html)

Thanks for the link, Chad. :)

During the last couple of years I have been researching this subject. I have read many of these 'so-called' Christian leaders' websites. I have also read books and reports by people who investigated them. Needless to say, I became totally horrified. I am not going to start name-calling now, but you would be surprised who is doing what in this regard.

God bless.