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Shaniesa
Oct 31st 2008, 09:30 PM
I have a question in the chapter a few verses say that we must put false believer to death..


so basically the bible says but all those are none believer in Christ to death.

but God say that we should also love on another.

so what does that mean exactly.

Literalist-Luke
Oct 31st 2008, 09:41 PM
I have a question in the chapter a few verses say that we must put false believer to death..

so basically the bible says but all those are none believer in Christ to death.

but God say that we should also love on another.

so what does that mean exactly.Israel's laws are different from the Church's laws. Israel was a "theocracy", where the land was essentially governed by God Himself. Since the Church is spread throughout the world, among the nations, that is not the case for us. Hope that helps. :)

Teke
Nov 1st 2008, 05:32 PM
I have a question in the chapter a few verses say that we must put false believer to death..


so basically the bible says but all those are none believer in Christ to death.

but God say that we should also love on another.

so what does that mean exactly.

The Deuteronomy chapter teaches us a lesson. In verse 4 it says God is testing you by these false prophets, to see if you will love the Lord with all your heart and soul, or if you will follow after these false ones who try leading you to another god.

I believe it's fair to say that we are to treat such false ones as dead. Though we do not have to physically put them to death. And we can love them in having compassion for them in that they are blind and without His illuminating light, which they will perish without. :)

Clay Blucher
Nov 1st 2008, 07:59 PM
I have a question in the chapter a few verses say that we must put false believer to death..


so basically the bible says but all those are none believer in Christ to death.

but God say that we should also love on another.

so what does that mean exactly.


Israel, as a nation, had to be concerned with internal purity and holiness. So any apostasy or blasphemy had to be expelled from the community. Deuteronomy 17 heightens chapter 13, making it clear that apostasy means breaking God's law. Again though, this is how the community deals with internal issuesónot outsiders.

Paul picks up the same language in 1 Cor 5,13b: "Purge the evil doer from your midst." This is the iconic phrase in found in Deut 13,5; 17,7; 21,21; 22,22; et al. Paul, by picking this phrase up as he does, is urging the Corinthian community to deal with the inner-community issue of the incestuous man. As Christians we are to remember that we are God's temple, and we are therefore expected to be holy. We cannot allow evil in our midst, and so we call expel people who continue in sin and are not true Christians. Outsiders of the community (1 Cor 5,12) will be judged by God.

Another good thing to remember of how this mindset was so ingrained in Jewish thinking during this time that it did not even need to be said (except for to Gentile believers apparently). Jesus was seen by the high priests as a false prophet who was leading the Jewish people away from God. The Jewish leaders wanted him killed because they were being good Jews in their minds. Paul continued this line of thinking as he persecuted the "apostasy" of the early chuch. Just something to think about, as this phrase was the center of Paul's life before his conversion; and now he must keep the Christian community in line with the same phrase.

Éσяєяυииєя
Nov 1st 2008, 08:55 PM
Hello Shaniesa,


The ceremonial law (the other laws besides the 10 commandments) was abolished by Christ in the cross, as it is written:

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Ephesisans 2:14-16

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8.

Do you remember when the Isrealites were in the desert, and then it came to pass:

And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. Exodus 20:18-19.

Then in that way they rejected God`s ways (10 commandments) and God gave them the ceremonial law, dealing with the situation, as a Savior preventing them of the worst consequences of their choice.

As a Father who says to his child, an advise: "that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. ", then the child rejects the advice and disobeys, then now as God doesn`t use force -just Satan- The Father deals with the situation for the best of the child.

God bless

Emanate
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:49 PM
The ceremonial law (the other laws besides the 10 commandments) was abolished by Christ in the cross, as it is written:


Oddly enough, the disciples (especially Paul) continued in this ceremonial law.

Éσяєяυииєя
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:06 PM
Hello Emanate,

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. Acts 10:45,47,48.

Were Cornelius and his family circumcised? It is written they were"baptized in the name of the Lord."

Take care my friend

Levin
Nov 4th 2008, 08:08 PM
Hello Shaniesa,


The ceremonial law (the other laws besides the 10 commandments) was abolished by Christ in the cross, as it is written:

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Ephesisans 2:14-16

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8.



Just curious,

Why would you say that the Ten Commandments were not abolished with the rest of the law? I know that they were given first and written by the hand of God, but we in the church are clearly no longer bound by at least the 4th commandment. Why then do we hold on to the rest as law, even as we ditch the rest of the law of the OT?

Levin

Éσяєяυииєя
Nov 4th 2008, 11:06 PM
Hello Levin,



...we in the church are clearly no longer bound by at least the 4th commandment. Why then do we hold on to the rest as law, even as we ditch the rest of the law of the OT?

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10.

By the way, here is an interesitng thread about it my friend click (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=144574&highlight=love+law). Why were not they abolished with the rest of the law, we are to see a diference between the moral law (10 Commandments) and the ceremonial law (A heap of rules such as Lev (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=3&version=9) 1:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=3&version=9)).

Jesus said: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

To fullfil the moral law, but of Paul we read: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Ephesians 2:14-15.

Go well

Levin
Nov 5th 2008, 07:03 AM
Why were not they abolished with the rest of the law, we are to see a diference between the moral law (10 Commandments) and the ceremonial law (A heap of rules such as Lev (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=3&version=9) 1:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=3&version=9)).

Jesus said: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

To fullfil the moral law, but of Paul we read: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Ephesians 2:14-15.

Go well

Well, I see Jesus as fulfilling the requirements of the Mosaic (and soon enough the David) covenant, but how is it that we still keep the 10 commandments, as they were given to Israel as part of that covenant? Where do you find precedent to divide the law into moral and ceremonial? As I read the Pentateuch, I see no grounds for doing such a thing. Therefore, I wont somehow split the 10 commandments off from the rest of the law as given therein. This is especially true considering that the 10 commandments were written down again in Deuteronomy, which was I AM's covenant with Israel while they lived in the land. I'm not trying to say that these 10 commandments are irrelevant; I'm trying to say that they are not commands for the church today to obey in a moralistic sense. I think that we should obey all of the commandments except for the fourth, but not because we are commanded to. We are commanded to love God and love man (interestingly enough love cannot come as an action but requires heart) and acting in accordance with these commandments should follow this love; however, we should not follow the 10 commandments as moralistic imperatives, I don't think that such things exist for the church.

I still don't know exactly what I believe regarding this, but if you could give some more specific and clear scripture that sheds light on this I would appreciate it. I honestly don't see how Ephesians 2 supports your position, but I do see how it supports mine.

Thanks,
Levin

Éσяєяυииєя
Nov 5th 2008, 04:46 PM
Good morning Levin,

Well It is clear Jesus in the cross He ... abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; Ephesians 2... so what law did He abolish ?


how is it that we still keep the 10 commandments, as they were given to Israel as part of that covenant?

For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hebrews 8:4-5

Here Paul says that the ceremonial law, [how does one know is talking about the ceremonial law? in bold text " offer gifts according to the law" in the 10 commandments there is not any line saying we are to offer gifts]

Then follows saying that that ceremonial law "serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things" so heavenly things, if Moses was shown a pattern of the heavenly things, then there is a tabernacle in Heaven, and if there is a tabernacle in Heaven, then there is also an ark of the covenant.

By the way I wonder if you had any time to check this thread (http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=144574&highlight=love+law)? whatever, then if we read/know what was inside the earthly ark of the covenant then, we can have an idea of what is inside the heavenly one, for the second one is the original and the earthly ark was a pattern of the original.

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Revelation 11:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011;&version=9;)

Let`s read what was inside the earthly ark of the covenant:

There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. 1 Kings 8:9.

And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Hebrews 9:3-5.

But you know the promise:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name. Jeremiah 31:31-35

So the promise of keeping the law from the heart with joy, you know not as a burden but as a delight, by nature, knowing that the Lord knows the best for us.


I think that we should obey all of the commandments except for the fourth, but not because we are commanded to. We are commanded to love God and love man (interestingly enough love cannot come as an action but requires heart) and acting in accordance with these commandments should follow this love

I agree with the love for our neighbor as ourselves, but we in the last post read:

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

Let`s keep all the commandments but the 4th!!


how is it that we still keep the 10 commandments, as they were given to Israel as part of that covenant?

Well you know the Sabbath rest was even given to every one, far before the first Jew existed. How does one dare to say it?

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:1-3.

Now I ask, did God need to rest?

My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber.

Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand. Psalm 121:2-5.

God bless you