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GitRDunn
Oct 31st 2008, 10:54 PM
I have been in discussion with some atheists on a different internet forum and I have been explaining defending my Christian faith. Now someone has decided to make an argument against my faith that it is based on the Bible and that the Bible contradicts itself. Their "evidence" of this is this:

John 5:31- If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 8:14- Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true.

Obviously I want to explain why this isn't contradictory to them, but I don't want to do it hastily or in a bad way, so I am going to give what I think explains it and then I would be appreciative if anyone else would like to give me ideas or their explanation/reasoning.

My reasoning:
This is too narrow of a focus. If you look at the scriptures around these two you realize that while the wording is similar, the meaning of them is completely different. In John 5:31, Jesus is talking more about if he were to focus on himself and raise himself up, rather than keeping God as the main focus, but in John 8:14 Jesus is saying that when he speaks of being God's son and that the only way to salvation is through him, his testimony is true.

I know my wording isn't great and it isn't very detailed so if anyone can offer help I would be very appreciative. Thanks!

σяєяυииєя
Nov 1st 2008, 03:03 AM
Hello GitRDunn,


Well I read, and apparently the answer was given by Jesus Himself, as we read:

I can of mine own self do nothing:...but

the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:30

So if Jesus would bear witness of Himself, It would be only in case God would ask/required so from Jesus.

Christ was so empty of the self, that When Philip asked:

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? John 14:8,9

So If Jesus bore record of Himself as resulf of being guided by God [I can of mine own self do nothing:...,.but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 5:30] then it means He [Christ] was directing the people toward God, as He said to Philip " he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;".

In addition, there are many witnesses unto the truth [What truth could they say? and the answer is given also: ...that the Father hath sent me -Jesus-. John 5:36.]

1.John the Baptist John 5:33
2.The works which the Father gave Jesus to finish. John 5:36
3.The Father Himself bear witness of Jesus. [e.g:.. A voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. Mark 9:7.

God bless you

markdrums
Nov 1st 2008, 03:59 AM
I have been in discussion with some atheists on a different internet forum and I have been explaining defending my Christian faith. Now someone has decided to make an argument against my faith that it is based on the Bible and that the Bible contradicts itself. Their "evidence" of this is this:

John 5:31- If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 8:14- Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true.

Obviously I want to explain why this isn't contradictory to them, but I don't want to do it hastily or in a bad way, so I am going to give what I think explains it and then I would be appreciative if anyone else would like to give me ideas or their explanation/reasoning.

My reasoning:
This is too narrow of a focus. If you look at the scriptures around these two you realize that while the wording is similar, the meaning of them is completely different. In John 5:31, Jesus is talking more about if he were to focus on himself and raise himself up, rather than keeping God as the main focus, but in John 8:14 Jesus is saying that when he speaks of being God's son and that the only way to salvation is through him, his testimony is true.

I know my wording isn't great and it isn't very detailed so if anyone can offer help I would be very appreciative. Thanks!


I've "chatted" with DOZENS of atheists on the net, so I TOTALLY understand the kind of tacticts they threw your way. In fact, I bet I've been to some of the same forums you're talking about.

The biggest thing to remember is this; You can't get anywhere "arguing" or "debating" with an atheist whose only goal is to trash talk religion.
They're more "ANTI-theists" than "atheists".
.....Actually, many of them would best be described as "ANTI-CHRISTianity"; because their focus seems to be more about (unsucessfully) disproving the Bible, twisting scripture, AND: (follow along closely)
Trying to prove that you can't prove God's existence, while at the same time they can't prove his non-existence; which proves nothing at all; (which is exactly what they know), but they don't want you to know that......

Did you get all that? ;)

Basically what I'm saying is, they talk in circles.
They throw out illogical claims, & questions which have no real (logical) answer.
They try to be intimidating with philosophical absurdities, and hope you don't catch on.

Believe me, the "10000001 Bible contradictions list" is OLD NEWS. Every single one of their arguments have been debunked.

Here's an example of how they could "create" a contradiction, to suit their agenda:
The Movie "TITANIC".
John & Sara go to see this movie. The next day, their friend Dave separately asks them what the movie was about:
John says: "It was about a large passenger ship that sank on it's maiden voyage."
Sara says: "It was a love story about a rich girl and a poor guy, who met by fate and fell in love."

AHA!! A contradiction!!!! These accounts can't be trusted. They're obviously made up & full of errors!!!

Or are they??
The VERY SAME movie was being described by BOTH people, but from different vantage points. They were seeing the same things, but noticing different aspects & details.
So, after more research, & checking with OTHER "eye wittnesses" who saw it, you can put together the information; That being, they are BOTH CORRECT. NO CONTRADICTION.
But if you never read the Bible ...oooops, I mean *see the movie*, for yourself, you can call it a contradiction & be happy & smug in your ignorance.

I'd just recommend avoiding atheistic websites.
If you have a friend or family member who happens to be an atheist, and they genuinely ask you questions, you'll have a MUCH easier time talking to them, because it will be sincere curiosity.


I'm sure I blew your train of thought right off the track by now.... so, if I did, I apologize. :saint:

But I wanted to make sure you have a good idea of their "discussion process" goes.

GitRDunn
Nov 1st 2008, 06:21 AM
I've "chatted" with DOZENS of atheists on the net, so I TOTALLY understand the kind of tacticts they threw your way. In fact, I bet I've been to some of the same forums you're talking about.

The biggest thing to remember is this; You can't get anywhere "arguing" or "debating" with an atheist whose only goal is to trash talk religion.
They're more "ANTI-theists" than "atheists".
.....Actually, many of them would best be described as "ANTI-CHRISTianity"; because their focus seems to be more about (unsucessfully) disproving the Bible, twisting scripture, AND: (follow along closely)
Trying to prove that you can't prove God's existence, while at the same time they can't prove his non-existence; which proves nothing at all; (which is exactly what they know), but they don't want you to know that......

Did you get all that? ;)

Basically what I'm saying is, they talk in circles.
They throw out illogical claims, & questions which have no real (logical) answer.
They try to be intimidating with philosophical absurdities, and hope you don't catch on.

Believe me, the "10000001 Bible contradictions list" is OLD NEWS. Every single one of their arguments have been debunked.

Here's an example of how they could "create" a contradiction, to suit their agenda:
The Movie "TITANIC".
John & Sara go to see this movie. The next day, their friend Dave separately asks them what the movie was about:
John says: "It was about a large passenger ship that sank on it's maiden voyage."
Sara says: "It was a love story about a rich girl and a poor guy, who met by fate and fell in love."

AHA!! A contradiction!!!! These accounts can't be trusted. They're obviously made up & full of errors!!!

Or are they??
The VERY SAME movie was being described by BOTH people, but from different vantage points. They were seeing the same things, but noticing different aspects & details.
So, after more research, & checking with OTHER "eye wittnesses" who saw it, you can put together the information; That being, they are BOTH CORRECT. NO CONTRADICTION.
But if you never read the Bible ...oooops, I mean *see the movie*, for yourself, you can call it a contradiction & be happy & smug in your ignorance.

I'd just recommend avoiding atheistic websites.
If you have a friend or family member who happens to be an atheist, and they genuinely ask you questions, you'll have a MUCH easier time talking to them, because it will be sincere curiosity.


I'm sure I blew your train of thought right off the track by now.... so, if I did, I apologize. :saint:

But I wanted to make sure you have a good idea of their "discussion process" goes.
Actually the forum isn't an atheistic forum, it just has a discussion section about controversial topics and religion is a sub-forum. I understand what you mean about the talking in circles because there are a couple (actually the guy who posted this is one of these, what a surprise), who do that, but overall it is a pretty decent, discussion where both sides are stating their points. Also, there are some who do seem seriously curious and some have said they're kind of on the fence about religion/Christianity, so I want to continue to share the Christian side of things for these people so that they are at least exposed to it. And don't worry about blowing my train of thought off track, I followed that fine. Thanks for the suggestions/advice, both you and forerunner.

Teke
Nov 1st 2008, 05:21 PM
I have been in discussion with some atheists on a different internet forum and I have been explaining defending my Christian faith. Now someone has decided to make an argument against my faith that it is based on the Bible and that the Bible contradicts itself. Their "evidence" of this is this:

John 5:31- If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

John 8:14- Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true.

Obviously I want to explain why this isn't contradictory to them, but I don't want to do it hastily or in a bad way, so I am going to give what I think explains it and then I would be appreciative if anyone else would like to give me ideas or their explanation/reasoning.

My reasoning:
This is too narrow of a focus. If you look at the scriptures around these two you realize that while the wording is similar, the meaning of them is completely different. In John 5:31, Jesus is talking more about if he were to focus on himself and raise himself up, rather than keeping God as the main focus, but in John 8:14 Jesus is saying that when he speaks of being God's son and that the only way to salvation is through him, his testimony is true.

I know my wording isn't great and it isn't very detailed so if anyone can offer help I would be very appreciative. Thanks!

John 5:31 is an example where He gives them four witnesses of Him. In Jewish tradition, a valid testimony requires two witnesses (Deut. 17:6). Jesus offers four witnesses to His messiahship and divine Sonship. 1) God the Father (v 32,37,38), 2) John the Baptist (v33,35 "testimony from man"), 3)His own works (v36), and 4) the OT scriptures through which Moses gives his testimony (v 39-47).

In John 8:14 (actually 13-29), in the face of resistance and disbelief Jesus continues to proclaim His relationship with the Father. The Pharisees either were unable to understand Jesus' words or were simply astonished that Jesus was claiming God as His own Father.

This is where trinitarian theology comes in, because the Son and the Father share the same nature, one cannot be known apart from the other. (see 8:19) If He were not of the same nature He would not have spoken as He did. Jesus is God and Gods' testimony is true.
:hug: