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RevLogos
Nov 1st 2008, 06:45 PM
I want to look at the mystery of Babylon. Many people look at end-times prophesy and don’t see the United States. What would have to happen for such a powerful nation to have no impact in the end-times? Some propose the US declines and becomes insignificant.

Let me suggest an alternate hypothesis for discussion. The US does decline, but remains a key player in end-times. Could the US become the great mystery Babylon?

In Rev 17 the prostitute is associated with Babylon. On her forehead the words “Mystery Babylon, Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abomination of the Earth”. Later 17 says the woman is the "great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

A few verses suggest the Mystery Babylon is not a city, but a great nation that rules over the earth. Suppose the United States for example, became an anti-Christian country. Not all of the people of course, but in its leadership and in how it projects power. A nation “drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.”

Quite a few verses point to a very powerful, rich, and influential nation that has fallen away. Only one nation on earth fits all of these descriptions.

Rev 18 details what Babylon was, and what is to become.

Babylon, a nation of artists and merchants with global influence. “The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.”

A global economic power in decline: "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more - cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. “

Babylon is a great melting pot “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.”

Babylon, a nation once filled with Christians, but now fallen. “The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird. “

The Christians there are warned to get out: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes.”

"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.'

A nation of luxury and excess: “For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

Could the beast rule Babylon, and yet also hate it? Could Babylon represent a nation-state that has been Christian but has also become anti-Christian? With leadership that doesn’t like it’s own people? Could it be a fallen nation? Does the beast use Babylon to project power throughout the world, but destroy it in the process?

“The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.”

Putting all of this together suggests what the mystery might be. A mystery because no such nation existed or could exist in John’s time. A powerful nation that becomes drunk with sin.

Dani H
Nov 1st 2008, 11:49 PM
Babylon =|= the good ol' U.S. of A.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 2nd 2008, 12:06 AM
Babylon =|= the good ol' U.S. of A.Is that an equal sign or a non-equal sign?

It never ceases to amaze me how some people think the USA is so important that we just have to have a place in Biblical prophecy. We're not even 250 years old yet and people already want to give us a more prominent place in history than empires that were around for, in some cases, over 1000 years. Unbelievable. :no:

RevLogos
Nov 2nd 2008, 12:32 AM
Is that an equal sign or a non-equal sign?

It never ceases to amaze me how some people think the USA is so important that we just have to have a place in Biblical prophecy. We're not even 250 years old yet and people already want to give us a more prominent place in history than empires that were around for, in some cases, over 1000 years. Unbelievable. :no:

I'm just a guy, reading the Bible, trying to figure out what it means. Do you really need to trash my motives, and me personally, for which you know absolutely nothing?

I'll think twice next time.

catlover
Nov 2nd 2008, 12:40 AM
I totally digged your post. Good food for thought.

mfowler12
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:07 AM
Very thought provoking. I like the way this topic has started. I await for rebuttals.

quiet dove
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:12 AM
I'm just a guy, reading the Bible, trying to figure out what it means. Do you really need to trash my motives, and me personally, for which you know absolutely nothing?

I'll think twice next time.

Aren't we all.:hug: Well, some of us are women but same shoes of trying to understand.

Servant of David
Nov 2nd 2008, 01:53 AM
Babylon =|= the good ol' U.S. of A.

I tend to think this too.

Noblesurvey
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:06 AM
I like your post and what you say may have some merit.

Don't be discouraged in asking the question, some people tend to think that we all have the same amount of study under our belt as they do. What they often don't realize is that the only way to find out the truth is to ask a question in the first place and if they have knowledge it is better shared with kindness than by demeaning comments, it would pay well for some of us to learn this lesson.

I Look forward to reading this discussion!

God Bless ;)

Roelof
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:27 AM
I read a few books on Revelations and none described Babilon as the US. Babilon will be an evil force in the last days, which does not say that the US does not fit the description.

In St John time, Babilon was Rome and the evil Roman Empire

ross3421
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:34 AM
Let me suggest an alternate hypothesis for discussion. The US does decline, but remains a key player in end-times. Could the US become the great mystery Babylon?

In Rev 17 the prostitute is associated with Babylon. On her forehead the words “Mystery Babylon, Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abomination of the Earth”. Later 17 says the woman is the "great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

A few verses suggest the Mystery Babylon is not a city, but a great nation that rules over the earth. Suppose the United States for example, became an anti-Christian country. Not all of the people of course, but in its leadership and in how it projects power. A nation “drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.”

Quite a few verses point to a very powerful, rich, and influential nation that has fallen away. Only one nation on earth fits all of these descriptions.

Rev 18 details what Babylon was, and what is to become.

Babylon, a nation of artists and merchants with global influence. “The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's great men. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.”

A global economic power in decline: "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more - cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. “

Babylon is a great melting pot “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.”

Babylon, a nation once filled with Christians, but now fallen. “The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit, a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird. “

The Christians there are warned to get out: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes.”

"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.'

A nation of luxury and excess: “For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries. The kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

Babylon to the inhabinants will appear as if heaven came down to earth. A city dressed as such and a city ruled as such. Babylon is THE city of a new kingdom upon the earth so yes is is much more than a city. Babylon however is not come down but risen UP from below. It will be literal hell on earth.

The US alongwith every other city and nation will be destroyed before this kingdom arises, there wil be no equal. Note the location of Babylon ie wilderness.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?



Could the beast rule Babylon, and yet also hate it? Could Babylon represent a nation-state that has been Christian but has also become anti-Christian? With leadership that doesn’t like it’s own people? Could it be a fallen nation? Does the beast use Babylon to project power throughout the world, but destroy it in the process?

“The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.”

Putting all of this together suggests what the mystery might be. A mystery because no such nation existed or could exist in John’s time. A powerful nation that becomes drunk with sin.

The beast does not hate itself however it is a divided kingdom which shall not stand. Once you understand the couterfeit then we see this kingdom made up of churches and Israel. The churches are those which have not overcome and received his mark and represented by the 7 heads. The "10 horns" initially align themselves with the beast but end up dividing off and doing God's will. These 10 actually reperesent the 10 tribes of the house of Israel the remnant which God has protected.

Study Babylon and the kingdom of God and you will see striking simularities.



Mark

Dani H
Nov 2nd 2008, 04:35 PM
Is that an equal sign or a non-equal sign?


Non-equal.

To the OP:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=143236&highlight=babylon

RevLogos
Nov 2nd 2008, 05:01 PM
1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
1Th 5:6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.

We are told to watch and be ready so that we are not caught by surprise. That really, is the whole point of this forum isn't it? One way to do this is to play “what if”. What if the end-times comes in my lifetime? Many of us think it will.

If the end-times comes in the near future, there is no doubt the US will be an important component to how things play out. Therefore in my opinion, it must be represented in the Bible somewhere. We don’t see it because perhaps, we don’t want to see it.

But since that is controversial, let’s leave that out for the moment and simply ask: What does the end-times Babylon represent? Is it a city? A nation? Is it the New World Order? Is it the source of the AC? Or is it simply symbolic of the fallen world?

The descriptions in Revelation, mainly Ch 18, point to a world superpower that is about to come crashing down.

RevLogos
Nov 2nd 2008, 05:51 PM
Non-equal.

To the OP:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=143236&highlight=babylon

Thanks for the link. Interesting, several posts in both threads reject this idea, but come across to me as knee-jerk reactions without Biblical support. If the end-times occur any time soon, then the US will play a prominent role. If we don’t see it in prophesy, then it’s because we are looking in the wrong places, or the end-times is a far future event. It upsets our paradigms. It’s rejected out-of-hand. Is it not a US-centric view that holds Babylon cannot be the US because the US would have to be a force for good? The idea that the US crashes this hard would certainly invoke fear among many.

Yet at the same time many of us do see the US as falling away from God. What will become of all that fallen energy?

So we invent alternatives: Babylon is Rome. Babylon is Jerusalem. But neither of these cities, or any city for that matter, matches the description in Rev 18.

For those who think this is so ridiculous, I’d really like to see some solid Biblical rationale rather than an out-of-hand dismissal.

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 3rd 2008, 12:51 PM
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=31&context=chapter
Ezekiel 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=3&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me.
Matthew 24:42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=42&version=31&context=verse)
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
Matthew 24:43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=43&version=31&context=verse)
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
Matthew 25:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
Luke 12:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=12&verse=38&version=31&context=verse)
It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night.
Luke 21:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=21&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.
Luke 21:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=21&verse=36&version=31&context=verse)
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Even though we don't know who or which country be Babylon...it's better to keep watch...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
1Th 5:6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.

We are told to watch and be ready so that we are not caught by surprise. That really, is the whole point of this forum isn't it? One way to do this is to play “what if”. What if the end-times comes in my lifetime? Many of us think it will.

If the end-times comes in the near future, there is no doubt the US will be an important component to how things play out. Therefore in my opinion, it must be represented in the Bible somewhere. We don’t see it because perhaps, we don’t want to see it.

But since that is controversial, let’s leave that out for the moment and simply ask: What does the end-times Babylon represent? Is it a city? A nation? Is it the New World Order? Is it the source of the AC? Or is it simply symbolic of the fallen world?

The descriptions in Revelation, mainly Ch 18, point to a world superpower that is about to come crashing down.

Diolectic
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:48 PM
The Thing "upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
This was as a seal on her forehead, not a discription of who she is.

Just as the other seals are on the foreheads, for us with the Holy Spirit and the world with their mark of the Beast.
Israel was in Babylon before, and she still is spiritually.
Why was she in Babylon?
Because of disobedience and playing the h@rlot.

Israel has Babylon’s mark on her forehead and a seal of ownership.

The word "MYSTERY" could just mean that it is mysterious how Israel became the H@arlot (H@arlot) as She was being fed in the wilderness(Rev 12:6,14) and received the seal on Her forehead(Rev 17:5).

Israel is the H@rlot (H@rlot), by the way, as John was carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness(Rev 17:3) to see a woman sitting upon a scarlet colored beast; that is where the woman was last seen.

Rev 17::2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (Ref. Eze 16:26 You have also committed fornication with the Egyptians your very fleshly neighbors; and hast increased thy horedoms, to provoke me to anger.)
In Hosaiah and other times in the Bible Israel is called a h@rlot (h@rlot)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score days.
Who are the They?
See the prior verse for context:
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a male child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

As Israel is in the wilderness (scattered) She begins to play the h@rlot, again.