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adimus
Nov 2nd 2008, 06:44 PM
Sorry about the misspelled word in the title.

I placed all the relevant passages that deal with the rapture, with specific reguard to their chronological order (the order that they were originally written in) and picked them apart. This is what I came up with. If you find your beliefs challenged, re-examine them in the light of scripture interpreted in the order that God gave it.

The Tribulation

12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.

(Mat 24:21-22 21 For then there will be great trouble, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.)

But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Dan 12:1-3.

These scriptures prove that the tribulation spoken of in Daniel 12:1-3 is the same one that Jesus refered to in Mat 24:21-22.

The Resurrection
Daniel, Jesus and Paul, side by side

Daniel revealed that there will be a resurrection at that time of the deliverance of the elect from that time of great trouble.

Jesus was quoting from Daniel 12 and thusly also from Jeremiah 30:7, which Daniel 12 was quoting from.

"7 Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it."

Now we understand why Paul placed the resurrection at "His coming" when he wrote this, here:

"21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then (after the millennium) comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.[/i]" 1 Cor 15:21-25.

Here, Paul said that there will be a resurrection of those in Christ, "at his coming." That is another connecter proving that the gathering in Mat 24:31 includes the resurrection of the righteous, though the resurrection is not specifically mentioned by Jesus there.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mat 24:31.

1. Daniel put the resurrection after the tribulation in Dan 12:1.

2. Jesus quoted from Daniel 12:1 and put the gathering and redemption of the elect at the end of the "trouble of those days" in Mat 24:31.

3. Paul ( 1 Cor 15) put the resurrection of the righteous at the "coming" of the Lord 1 Cor 15:23, which Jesus tagged to happen "immediately after the tribilation."

4. Therefore, Paul borrowed information from Daniel that the resurrection would take place after the tribulation. Jesus revealed that the living righteous would be "gathered... immediately after the tribulation."

The Rapture

Paul then combines the two things into one event in 1 Thes 4:13-18, the famous rapture passage. The rapture of the living elect and the resurrection of the dead elect all happen at once "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and at the "coming of the Lord" according to 1 Thes 4 and Mat 24.

"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep (dead in Christ), that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel,(Mentioned in Dan 12:1) [COLOR=#000000]and with the sound of the trumpet of God (Mat 24:31). And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up(by the angels in Mat 24:31) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words." 1 Thes 4:13-18.

Who Are The Elect?

When Daniel was writing, the mystery of the church was not revealed yet.

"4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs (with the believing Jews), members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Eph 3:4-6.

But after Pentecost, the gentiles were welcomed into the new covenant made with Israel and thus became "the elect." Since the blood of Messiah was shed on the cross, there is no division in God between believing Jews and believing Gentiles. We are all in one body. Think about this:

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Eph 2:11-22.

Therefore, in light of this, we can see that Paul's idea of "the elect" was the church consisting of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. So Paul would have naturally understood that "the elect" whom Jesus said would be gathered "immediately after the tribulation" are the church of believing Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews alone. There is only one "elect."

The results

So, in closing, we see a definite (commonly termed) rapture of the living saints taking place at the "coming of the Lord," "immediately after the tribulation" and immediately after "the dead in Christ... rise first," when we all "together" will "meet the Lord in the air."
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No one knows if the end will come in our lifetime or not. It is fruitless to speculate that the Lord will likely return in our generation because we can not have any idea when he will return until the Antichrist is here wrecking havoc on the earth.
The reason that I posted the thread was not to get into a fruitless debate with anybody. Although, debate is not categorically fruitless at all. I raised the issue because I believe that there are connected issues that will not be considered at all by anyone who is pre-trib.
"11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" Romans 11:11-15.
These verses are some that together tell us the whole purpose of the church age. The pre-trib view suggests that the purpose of the church age is two fold:
1. The purpose of the church age is judgment against the unbelief of the majority of Israel.
2. The purpose of the church age is to give all the gentile nations a fair chance to hear the gospel and be saved before God turns back to Israel and Israel turns back to him and then the millennium begins. Essentially, this current age is one of God simply tallying up the numbers of saved Gentiles until it reaches a certain, unknown number, and then the rapture will happen and... well, you know the rest.
These two ideas rest upon the unscriptural notion that Israel and the church are entirely separate peoples and plans of God. Consider the following in regard to that idea which is not found in the Bible.
"11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." Ephesians 2:11-22
The church is the new phenomenon of Gentiles being grafted in alongside with the particular Jews who have faith in the Jesus, the Messiah, through the New Covenant God made with Israel (Jer 31:31). This was accomplished through Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension. Believing Jews and Gentiles are now One people- the church. Jews are still Jews and Gentiles are still Gentiles but we are united, similar to a marraige.
This phenomenon of Jews and Gentiles being spiritually united as one people in Messiah is both a judgment on Israel's unbelievers and also a blessing to them.
"28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." Rom 11:28-32.
You see, it is true that God has hardened the unbelievers of Israel right now. But this has been done, "for your sake." This is the purpose of the church, to be an effectual witness to unbelieving Israel until they turn back to the Lord. When they turn to the Lord, there will be "life from the dead" or resurrection. "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" Rom 11:15. We know that the Antichrist is set to try and destroy the people of Israel and those who follow Israel's God. Pre-tribbers delegate these saints to those who will repent after the pre-tribulational rapture. This removes any thoughts about the church's purpose and calling to effectually witness to Israel until they turn to God, which is prophesied to happen to the surviving remnant of Israel.
The bottom line is this:
1. Israel cannot repent without the church being a witness to her.
2. The church cannot witness to Israel if we are all gone up into heaven because of a rapture.
3. The dead in Christ are raised at the rapture. This cannot happen until a very significant number of the remnant of Israel is repenting to Jesus. As Paul asked in Romans 11:15, "What will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"
So, I am very concerned about all this widespread passion for the pre-trib rapture here in the west. It is a distraction for the church from considering all the vast purposes God has for their being a church age at all in the fist place. Besides, as Dr Michael L Brown says, "The reason that I don't believe in the pre-tribulational rapture is because it is not found in the Bible." My initial post covers that topic, to whet the pallet.
It is not a matter of simply being ready to meet the Lord in the rapture. That idea is honestly a new one that was first taught by certain Bible teachers from Scotland, in the 1830s. It is a matter of understanding the purpose of the church age. It is a matter of understanding the ways of God. It is a matter of understanding what is means for God to be a faithful God of his covenant to Abraham. It is a matter of knowing and understanding God, as He, in fact, is.
The church [I]has no covenant with God. Israel does have a covenant with God. The fact that most of us are gentiles and we are in a saving relationship with God is meant to humble us before the mercy of God. God intends that the church begin to see his majestic purpose in the church age. The church is a new phenomenon designed out of the faithfulness of God to Abraham. God has raised up the church to turn Israel back to God. No one knew that, thru the Messiah, gentiles would be united together with the faithful in Israel as one new people- the church. God's original intention was for Israel to be a light to the nations. It was not known that this call would begin to be fulfilled through a predominantly Gentile church that is grafted in alongside Israel's faithful remnant to inherit the promises to Abraham. This church would consist of countless people of the nations and would be birthed by the remnant of Israel in the first century.

ross3421
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:36 AM
[QUOTE=adimus;1850058]So, in closing, we see a definite (commonly termed) rapture of the living saints taking place at the "coming of the Lord," "immediately after the tribulation" and immediately after "the dead in Christ... rise first," when we all "together" will "meet the Lord in the air."[/SIZE]
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Agree that there is no possibility for a pre trib rapture however there are two problems with one being afterwards.......

1. All must die physically to be changed.
2. There are no born again believers on earth when Christ returns.

The "alive and remain" are those "dead in Christ" which have been resurrected.

Dead in Christ = The alive and remain

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Mark

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:47 PM
Well, I don't know pre trib is true or not but all I know is there is a Rapture and Second Coming of Christ...we are in the end time, so watch and see so that Jesus Christ our LORD don't find us asleep!!! Because his coming is like a thief in the night...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=5&version=31&context=chapter
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=25&version=31&context=chapter
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[quote]

Agree that there is no possibility for a pre trib rapture however there are two problems with one being afterwards.......

1. All must die physically to be changed.
2. There are no born again believers on earth when Christ returns.

The "alive and remain" are those "dead in Christ" which have been resurrected.

Dead in Christ = The alive and remain

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Mark

divaD
Nov 4th 2008, 01:36 AM
The "alive and remain" are those "dead in Christ" which have been resurrected.

Dead in Christ = The alive and remain


You definately lost me here. Also, if you're using 1co 15:21-23 to make this point, I just don't see the connection.



1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord


we're told in verse 14 that God will bring with Him those that sleep in Jesus.

We're told in verses 15 and 16 that that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep, and that the dead in Christ shall rise first.

In verse 17 we're told we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Shall be caught up together with whom in the clouds? The dead in Christ, and Christ Himself, since we know that the dead in Christ will rise first.

But, if the dead in Christ = The alive and remain, then what does it mean 'shall be caught up together with them in the clouds'? If these are one and the same, then how does this logically get accomplished?

I have to humbly disagree that the Dead in Christ = The alive and remain. The written text in 1 Thessalonians 4: doesn't say nor even suggest that these are one and the same, no matter how you want to make a connection to 1co 15:21-23 in order to support this position.

Gods Child
Nov 4th 2008, 03:58 AM
Sorry about the misspelled word in the title.

I placed all the relevant passages that deal with the rapture, with specific reguard to their chronological order (the order that they were originally written in) and picked them apart. This is what I came up with. If you find your beliefs challenged, re-examine them in the light of scripture interpreted in the order that God gave it.

The Tribulation

12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.

(Mat 24:21-22 21 For then there will be great trouble, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.)

But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Dan 12:1-3.

These scriptures prove that the tribulation spoken of in Daniel 12:1-3 is the same one that Jesus refered to in Mat 24:21-22.

The Resurrection
Daniel, Jesus and Paul, side by side

Daniel revealed that there will be a resurrection at that time of the deliverance of the elect from that time of great trouble.

Jesus was quoting from Daniel 12 and thusly also from Jeremiah 30:7, which Daniel 12 was quoting from.

"7 Alas! That day is so great
there is none like it;
it is a time of distress for Jacob;
yet he shall be saved out of it."

Now we understand why Paul placed the resurrection at "His coming" when he wrote this, here:

"21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then (after the millennium) comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.[/i]" 1 Cor 15:21-25.

Here, Paul said that there will be a resurrection of those in Christ, "at his coming." That is another connecter proving that the gathering in Mat 24:31 includes the resurrection of the righteous, though the resurrection is not specifically mentioned by Jesus there.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mat 24:31.

1. Daniel put the resurrection after the tribulation in Dan 12:1.

2. Jesus quoted from Daniel 12:1 and put the gathering and redemption of the elect at the end of the "trouble of those days" in Mat 24:31.

3. Paul ( 1 Cor 15) put the resurrection of the righteous at the "coming" of the Lord 1 Cor 15:23, which Jesus tagged to happen "immediately after the tribilation."

4. Therefore, Paul borrowed information from Daniel that the resurrection would take place after the tribulation. Jesus revealed that the living righteous would be "gathered... immediately after the tribulation."

The Rapture

Paul then combines the two things into one event in 1 Thes 4:13-18, the famous rapture passage. The rapture of the living elect and the resurrection of the dead elect all happen at once "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and at the "coming of the Lord" according to 1 Thes 4 and Mat 24.

"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep (dead in Christ), that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel,(Mentioned in Dan 12:1) [COLOR=#000000]and with the sound of the trumpet of God (Mat 24:31). And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up(by the angels in Mat 24:31) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words." 1 Thes 4:13-18.

Who Are The Elect?

When Daniel was writing, the mystery of the church was not revealed yet.

"4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs (with the believing Jews), members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Eph 3:4-6.

But after Pentecost, the gentiles were welcomed into the new covenant made with Israel and thus became "the elect." Since the blood of Messiah was shed on the cross, there is no division in God between believing Jews and believing Gentiles. We are all in one body. Think about this:

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. Eph 2:11-22.

Therefore, in light of this, we can see that Paul's idea of "the elect" was the church consisting of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. So Paul would have naturally understood that "the elect" whom Jesus said would be gathered "immediately after the tribulation" are the church of believing Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews alone. There is only one "elect."

The results

So, in closing, we see a definite (commonly termed) rapture of the living saints taking place at the "coming of the Lord," "immediately after the tribulation" and immediately after "the dead in Christ... rise first," when we all "together" will "meet the Lord in the air."


This is a very good sum of the matter and I would not disagree with it at all.
I believe Jesus told us when he would gather us and he said it plainly in Matthew 24 as being "immediately after the tribilation."

ross3421
Nov 4th 2008, 04:19 AM
You definately lost me here. Also, if you're using 1co 15:21-23 to make this point, I just don't see the connection.

We are made ALIVE upon the resurrection.


Shall be caught up together with whom in the clouds?

The dead Thess + Paul and those which he was speaking = the dead in Christ

Note the reason Paul uses the word "we". Paul knew he and those he was speaking would be dead by then as seen in the next chapter.


But, if the dead in Christ = The alive and remain, then what does it mean 'shall be caught up together with them in the clouds'? If these are one and the same, then how does this logically get accomplished?

Take note of the colon which seperates the two verses. It should not be read as "and" but the second part relates back to the first.

Those at Thess we concerned about their fellow brethren which have died, Paul is telling them not to worry but God will bring them also at the resurrection. Hence Paul knew that he alongwith those is was speaking would die prior thus both would be caught up together.

1th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die,

1co 15:22 even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

When? At the resurrection

1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


I understand it is hard to see that the alive and remain are the dead in Christ. For when have been told as fact and brain washed over and over that the alive and remain are the living on the earth even when the subject of not dying is a contradiction of God's own word.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


Mark