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belville
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:45 AM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:

Ashley274
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:55 AM
The truth is I am saved by GRACE. God is soverign and gives us free will and the gift of faith and that IS grace that while we did not deserve it He gave it to us.

crossnote
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:20 AM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:

Neither. God chose me before I was born and not only knew I would be saved but ordered events to lead to my salvation.

Redimido
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:22 AM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:
How can you be a christian and believe that you can be saved with out faith?:hmm:
The question is not do we make the decision we all agree on that.
But rather witch comes first you choosing him or him choosing you. That is to say does God elect me because I chose him or did I chose him because he elected me, assuming the fact that we agree that no one comes to God with out God drawing them.

Redimido
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:25 AM
Neither. God chose me before I was born and not only knew I would be saved but ordered events to lead to my salvation.
what place does regeneration have in salvation ?

Richard H
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:06 AM
From my standpoint, I chose Jesus by my own freewill.

But God knows how everything turns out. He knew it at the beginning.
That’s when He wrote our names down in the Lamb’s book of life..

(Speaking of those who will worship the anti-Christ)
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Revelation 13:8 NASB

Richard H
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:21 AM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:Your question is confusing to me. Certainly we are saved by faith, but you seem to be asking about free will or predestination.
If you mean that God know that we had that "special sort of faith" which would enable us to believe?
The answer is no.
He is the author and perfecter of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)

Back2Front
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:36 AM
what is the real faith that is worthy of salvation, and who is worthy to decide if one has that real faith?

At this point I usually ask for a show of hands as to who thinks they are worthy to decide who does and doesn't think they have the righteousness to judge real faith even of themselves.

But I won't.

;)

I can say however that the real answer is where real humility is found.

Back2Front
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:52 AM
I often see people confuse the biblical words will be to mean suddenly becomes. It seems to me though that that confusion is oddly what keeps the doors of many churches open.

Back2Front
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:02 AM
As for Choice... If I do indeed have it, I want nothing to do with it. For I have seen what I have done with it.

If I do have choice, then I freely give it away and choose not to have choice or free will. I choose that my will be non-existent and only the will of God is done and exists.

If I don't have Choice then I there is nothing I can do and it's futile anyway.

Zack702
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:41 AM
I think we all have the same path but we each carve out new ones at every chance.


Thats why the spirit had to work its way in Israel and on the Earth to give us a remembrance a light. Or else we would all follow after our own will and carve a long path and look back and our trail is grown over and we become lost. Jesus Christ is the light which leads us back to our ordained path.

9Marksfan
Nov 3rd 2008, 10:19 AM
How can you be a christian and believe that you can be saved with out faith?:hmm:
The question is not do we make the decision we all agree on that.
But rather witch comes first you choosing him or him choosing you. That is to say does God elect me because I chose him or did I chose him because he elected me, assuming the fact that we agree that no one comes to God with out God drawing them.

Scripture is clear - we choose God because God has chosen us:-

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 NKJV

Note it DOESN'T say "and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life".

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 3rd 2008, 02:23 PM
These are the verses about that:
Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=2&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Philippians 1:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=1&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=2&verse=13&version=31&context=verse)
[ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
2 Timothy 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=1&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
Titus 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=3&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:

drew
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:11 PM
Scripture is clear - we choose God because God has chosen us:-

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 NKJV

Note it DOESN'T say "and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life".
I do not thinks things are quite so simple.

Calvinists sometimes appeal to Acts 13:48 in support of the notion that some people are “elected” or fore-ordained to salvation. Here is the text in the NASB:

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

The phase here translated as "had been appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is a form of the Greek word “tasso”. Now a word here about the linguistic concept of a “voice”. From wikipedia:

In grammar, the voice (also called gender or diathesis) of a verb describes the relationship between the action (or state) that the verb expresses and the participants identified by its arguments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb_argument) (subject, object, etc.). When the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_(grammar)) is the agent or actor of the verb, the verb is in the active voice. When the subject is the patient, target or undergoer of the action, it is said to be in the passive voice.

For example, in the sentence:

The cat ate the mouse.

the verb "ate" is in the active voice, but in the sentence:

The mouse was eaten by the cat.

the verbal phrase "was eaten" is passive.

For our present purposes, we need to also introduce the “middle voice”. Again from wikipedia:

Some languages (such as Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit), Icelandic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Language) and Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language)) have a middle voice. The middle voice is in the middle of the active and the passive voice because the subject cannot be categorized as either agent or patient but has elements of both. An intransitive verb that appears active but expresses a passive action characterizes the English middle voice. For example, in “The casserole cooked in the oven”, cooked appears syntactically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax) active but semantically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics) passive, putting it in the middle voice. In Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language), the middle voice is often reflexive, denoting that the subject acts on or for itself, such as "The boy washes himself", or "The boy washes."

Note: Classical Greek, the language in which Acts was written is identified as possessing this “middle voice”

Now in Greek, the same form is used to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. Almost all English Bibles translate this inherently ambiguous form in the passive voice (the subject receives the action). However, if it is translated in the middle voice (the subject initiates the action), the Acts 13:48 passage would read something like, “ . . .as many as agreed with eternal life believed."

As stated, there is nothing in the Greek grammar itself that demands a passive or a middle voice rendering – the form is inherently ambiguous and we need context to resolve things.

I will now provide a claim I read on the web. I have no immediate evidence of its correctness. However, this claim at least raises the possibility that there may have been “translation” decisions made were not quite right. And I suspect that all of us here believe that it is only the original texts, as penned, that are inspired. In other words, I suspect that the Christian needs to be open to the possibility of translation errors.

There are convincing historical arguments that ancient Greeks saw the default rendering of "tetagmenoi" as middle voice, even as modern Greeks do. For example, the most current and largest publication on Verbs in Greece, the Lexicon of Ancient Greek Verbs by B. D. Anagnostopoulos (a book without theological interests), shows "tetagmenos" on page 1099, in the middle voice. Even in ancient Greek manuscripts, we can find “tetagmenoi” used in the middle voice. It is quite evident that ancient Greeks generally understood "tetagmenoi" to be in the middle voice.

Now, this does not establish that a translation error has occurred. Much more context analysis is required. But it does show that the quoted claim that "scripture is clear" is really a bit of a simplification.

I hope to continue this line of argumentation later....

markdrums
Nov 3rd 2008, 08:08 PM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:

I see it as this:
Based on the foreknowledge God has, He "chose" me, because he knew the choice I would make in responding to him & choosing to accept him.
Kinda like what 9Marksfan said.... but maybe with a little different wording....
;)

God knew US before we were formed in the womb. Our names were also written in the "book of life" from the foundation of the world.

So it's not that God decided, "I'll choose this guy & this guy, ... not him, not her, ... I'll take her & her... etc..." but rather, because he KNOWS everybody that has & will respond to him.

belville
Nov 5th 2008, 05:34 AM
i believe that God chose us, i was just asking for other peples opinion and or what they thinks
thanxs guys and gals:pp

crossnote
Nov 5th 2008, 06:07 AM
what place does regeneration have in salvation ?

Unlike predestination, I believe regeneration happens in time (not eternity) where a person is quickened to new life (reborn from above).
This happens when the message of the Gospel coupled with the work of the Spirit breathes/speaks new life into the person.

It is prefigured in the Genesis 1.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.(our natural life) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (our sinful condition). [And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.(God's Spirit working with His Word in the Gospel regenerating us) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness (Our two natures after regeneration).
(Gen 1:1-4)

Richard H
Nov 5th 2008, 06:36 AM
Unlike predestination, I believe regeneration happens in time (not eternity) where a person is quickened to new life (reborn from above).
This happens when the message of the Gospel coupled with the work of the Spirit breathes/speaks new life into the person.

It is prefigured in the Genesis 1.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.(our natural life) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (our sinful condition). [And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.(God's Spirit working with His Word in the Gospel regenerating us) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness (Our two natures after regeneration).
(Gen 1:1-4)
Thanks for addressing that, Crossnote.
Basically, it's being born again - if I understand what yer saying.

9Marksfan
Nov 5th 2008, 10:34 AM
I see it as this:
Based on the foreknowledge God has, He "chose" me, because he knew the choice I would make in responding to him & choosing to accept him.
Kinda like what 9Marksfan said.... but maybe with a little different wording....
;)

God knew US before we were formed in the womb. Our names were also written in the "book of life" from the foundation of the world.

So it's not that God decided, "I'll choose this guy & this guy, ... not him, not her, ... I'll take her & her... etc..." but rather, because he KNOWS everybody that has & will respond to him.

Sorry to disappoint - but that's the opposite of what I was saying - what you are saying is that God chose us because he knew we would choose Him. But that would effectively be that God chose us because we chose Him! No - God chooses us specifically - even though we - and the whole human race - did not deserve to be chosen - indeed, had God chosen none of us, we would have no reason to challnege Him on it - we all deserve Hell, after all -but it's not arbitrary - it's in love and in accordance with the counsel of His will - amazing and impossible that may be to fathom.....because God chooses us, He calls us and brings us to the point of faith - He enables us to believe and trust Him! Salvation is 100% of the LORD! :pp

9Marksfan
Nov 5th 2008, 10:38 AM
I do not thinks things are quite so simple.

Calvinists sometimes appeal to Acts 13:48 in support of the notion that some people are “elected” or fore-ordained to salvation. Here is the text in the NASB:

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

The phase here translated as "had been appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is a form of the Greek word “tasso”. Now a word here about the linguistic concept of a “voice”. From wikipedia:

In grammar, the voice (also called gender or diathesis) of a verb describes the relationship between the action (or state) that the verb expresses and the participants identified by its arguments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb_argument) (subject, object, etc.). When the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_(grammar)) is the agent or actor of the verb, the verb is in the active voice. When the subject is the patient, target or undergoer of the action, it is said to be in the passive voice.

For example, in the sentence:

The cat ate the mouse.

the verb "ate" is in the active voice, but in the sentence:

The mouse was eaten by the cat.

the verbal phrase "was eaten" is passive.

For our present purposes, we need to also introduce the “middle voice”. Again from wikipedia:

Some languages (such as Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit), Icelandic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Language) and Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language)) have a middle voice. The middle voice is in the middle of the active and the passive voice because the subject cannot be categorized as either agent or patient but has elements of both. An intransitive verb that appears active but expresses a passive action characterizes the English middle voice. For example, in “The casserole cooked in the oven”, cooked appears syntactically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax) active but semantically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics) passive, putting it in the middle voice. In Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language), the middle voice is often reflexive, denoting that the subject acts on or for itself, such as "The boy washes himself", or "The boy washes."

Note: Classical Greek, the language in which Acts was written is identified as possessing this “middle voice”

Now in Greek, the same form is used to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. Almost all English Bibles translate this inherently ambiguous form in the passive voice (the subject receives the action).

That's all very interesting and quite possibly true, but.....


However, if it is translated in the middle voice (the subject initiates the action), the Acts 13:48 passage would read something like, “ . . .as many as agreed with eternal life believed."

HOW do you get this? The use of tasso elsewhere in the NT is "ordain" or "determine" - where are you getting "agreed" from?


As stated, there is nothing in the Greek grammar itself that demands a passive or a middle voice rendering – the form is inherently ambiguous and we need context to resolve things.

So passive is equally possible, then?

I will now provide a claim I read on the web. I have no immediate evidence of its correctness. However, this claim at least raises the possibility that there may have been “translation” decisions made were not quite right. And I suspect that all of us here believe that it is only the original texts, as penned, that are inspired. In other words, I suspect that the Christian needs to be open to the possibility of translation errors.

There are convincing historical arguments that ancient Greeks saw the default rendering of "tetagmenoi" as middle voice, even as modern Greeks do. For example, the most current and largest publication on Verbs in Greece, the Lexicon of Ancient Greek Verbs by B. D. Anagnostopoulos (a book without theological interests), shows "tetagmenos" on page 1099, in the middle voice. Even in ancient Greek manuscripts, we can find “tetagmenoi” used in the middle voice. It is quite evident that ancient Greeks generally understood "tetagmenoi" to be in the middle voice.

Now, this does not establish that a translation error has occurred. Much more context analysis is required. But it does show that the quoted claim that "scripture is clear" is really a bit of a simplification.

I hope to continue this line of argumentation later....[/quote]

I think what is much more important is how you can transalte "tetagmenoi" as "agreed".......

Levin
Nov 5th 2008, 11:54 AM
I believe that Paul had a deep deep belief in the predestination of believers to glory and sinners to damnation:

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


Ephesians 1:4-6 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.



Ephesians 1:10-12
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

And one for damnation (this is a really hard text to swallow):
Romans 9:19-23
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory



I hope this paints a good view of Paul's theology
Levin

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 12:53 PM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:

Greetings belville,

As Ashley has said, we are NOT saved by faith, but rather by GRACE through faith. There is no doubting the order of salvation when we remember it is God's GRACE and not our faith that saves us.

Many Blessings,
RW

RogerW
Nov 5th 2008, 01:03 PM
I think what is much more important is how you can transalte "tetagmenoi" as "agreed".......

Greetings Nigel,

Exactly! How indeed? "as many as were ordained" is not a disposition or arrangement originating with themselves, but with God. Ordained comes not from within, but from an outside source.

Many Blessings,
RW

Partaker of Christ
Nov 5th 2008, 10:58 PM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:

I was chosen to choose Him.

Butch5
Nov 5th 2008, 11:33 PM
I do not thinks things are quite so simple.

Calvinists sometimes appeal to Acts 13:48 in support of the notion that some people are “elected” or fore-ordained to salvation. Here is the text in the NASB:

When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed

The phase here translated as "had been appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is a form of the Greek word “tasso”. Now a word here about the linguistic concept of a “voice”. From wikipedia:

In grammar, the voice (also called gender or diathesis) of a verb describes the relationship between the action (or state) that the verb expresses and the participants identified by its arguments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb_argument) (subject, object, etc.). When the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_(grammar)) is the agent or actor of the verb, the verb is in the active voice. When the subject is the patient, target or undergoer of the action, it is said to be in the passive voice.

For example, in the sentence:

The cat ate the mouse.

the verb "ate" is in the active voice, but in the sentence:

The mouse was eaten by the cat.

the verbal phrase "was eaten" is passive.

For our present purposes, we need to also introduce the “middle voice”. Again from wikipedia:

Some languages (such as Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit), Icelandic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Language) and Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language)) have a middle voice. The middle voice is in the middle of the active and the passive voice because the subject cannot be categorized as either agent or patient but has elements of both. An intransitive verb that appears active but expresses a passive action characterizes the English middle voice. For example, in “The casserole cooked in the oven”, cooked appears syntactically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax) active but semantically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics) passive, putting it in the middle voice. In Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language), the middle voice is often reflexive, denoting that the subject acts on or for itself, such as "The boy washes himself", or "The boy washes."

Note: Classical Greek, the language in which Acts was written is identified as possessing this “middle voice”

Now in Greek, the same form is used to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. Almost all English Bibles translate this inherently ambiguous form in the passive voice (the subject receives the action). However, if it is translated in the middle voice (the subject initiates the action), the Acts 13:48 passage would read something like, “ . . .as many as agreed with eternal life believed."

As stated, there is nothing in the Greek grammar itself that demands a passive or a middle voice rendering – the form is inherently ambiguous and we need context to resolve things.

I will now provide a claim I read on the web. I have no immediate evidence of its correctness. However, this claim at least raises the possibility that there may have been “translation” decisions made were not quite right. And I suspect that all of us here believe that it is only the original texts, as penned, that are inspired. In other words, I suspect that the Christian needs to be open to the possibility of translation errors.

There are convincing historical arguments that ancient Greeks saw the default rendering of "tetagmenoi" as middle voice, even as modern Greeks do. For example, the most current and largest publication on Verbs in Greece, the Lexicon of Ancient Greek Verbs by B. D. Anagnostopoulos (a book without theological interests), shows "tetagmenos" on page 1099, in the middle voice. Even in ancient Greek manuscripts, we can find “tetagmenoi” used in the middle voice. It is quite evident that ancient Greeks generally understood "tetagmenoi" to be in the middle voice.

Now, this does not establish that a translation error has occurred. Much more context analysis is required. But it does show that the quoted claim that "scripture is clear" is really a bit of a simplification.

I hope to continue this line of argumentation later....


Hi Drew,

Very nice post, I would like to add that the entire passage in Acts 13 is in the middle voice, which I think only bolsters your argument. Notice prior to Acts 13:48 Paul and Barnabas had been preaching to both the Jews and the Gentiles and when the Jews saw this they spoke against Paul and Barnabas and blasphemed. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said,


Acts 13:46 ( KJV ) 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Notice Paul says to the Jews, "seeing you put it from you", Paul says the Jews judged "themselves" unworthy of eternal life.
So, it only makes sense that the gentiles also would judge themselves.
What reason would their be for Luke to switch from the middle voice when speaking of the Jews to the passive voice when speaking of the gentiles? Wouldn't we then have a different salvation for the Jews, than the Gentiles? How can it be that the Jews were able to judge themselves unworthy of eternal life but the Gentiles were not??

So, I think this will help bolster your case.

Butch5
Nov 5th 2008, 11:46 PM
Levin---I believe that Paul had a deep deep belief in the predestination of believers to glory and sinners to damnation:

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


This is an historical statement Paul gives as evidence that God will work all things together for good to those who love Him. It is not saying that God chose anyone to salvation.


Levin---Ephesians 1:4-6 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.


Paul Here refers to Himself and those with Him.



Levin---Ephesians 1:10-12
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


Paul Here refers to Himself and those with Him. You italicised the section speaking of being chosen and I bolded the Part that says "we who first trusted in Christ", that was not the Ephesians. It was the Jewish believers that first trusted in Christ.


Levin--- And one for damnation (this is a really hard text to swallow):
Romans 9:19-23
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory


Please show where this is speaking of salvation.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 6th 2008, 12:43 AM
Hi Drew,

Very nice post, I would like to add that the entire passage in Acts 13cis in the middle voice, which I think only bolsters your argument. Notice prior to Acts 13:48 Paul and Barnabas had been preaching to both the Jews and he gentiles and when the Jews saw this they spoke against Paul and Barnabas and blasphemed. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said,


Acts 13:46 ( KJV ) 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Notice Paul says to the Jews, "seeing you put it from you", Paul says the Jews judged "themselves" unworthy of eternal life.
So, it only makes sense that the gentiles also would judge themselves.
What reason would their be for Luke to switch from the middle voice when speaking of the Jews to the passive voice when speaking of the gentiles? Wouldn't we then have a different salvation for the Jews, than the Gentiles? How can it be that the Jews were able to judge themselves unworthy of eternal life but the Gentiles were not??

So, I think this will help bolster your case.

To the Jews the gospel was a stumbling block.
They rejected [middle voice] the Messiah based on their understanding (or misunderstanding) of scripture.
They were on the path in that, they knew (or knew of) the One true Holy God, who created the heavens and the earth (the foundation) They knew about sin, and the wages of sin. They knew of the covenant promise of God. They knew the Saviour would come, but when He came to His own, they knew Him not.

The Greeks [Gentiles] however had not this foundation, nor did they now of the path. The gospel to them was not a stumbling block, but foolishness, for this God was an unknown God.
The Jews had the Truth, but they rejected the Truth. The Gentiles had not that truth, so when the Truth came it was passive.

Butch5
Nov 6th 2008, 12:53 AM
To the Jews the gospel was a stumbling block.
They rejected [middle voice] the Messiah based on their understanding (or misunderstanding) of scripture.
They were on the path in that, they knew (or knew of) the One true Holy God, who created the heavens and the earth (the foundation) They knew about sin, and the wages of sin. They knew of the covenant promise of God. They knew the Saviour would come, but when He came to His own, they knew Him not.

The Greeks [Gentiles] however had not this foundation, nor did they now of the path. The gospel to them was not a stumbling block, but foolishness, for this God was an unknown God.
The Jews had the Truth, but they rejected the Truth. The Gentiles had not that truth, so when the Truth came it was passive.

The truth is not Passive it is active. God said my word will not return to me void.

As for the passage, again you make a statement with no supporting evidence. Paul clearly says that the Jews jduged themselves unworthy. So, can you please explain how the Jews have a different salvation than the Gentiles, which according your interpretation of the passage, are not capable of judging themselves unworthy?

Levin
Nov 6th 2008, 08:09 AM
Paul Here refers to Himself and those with Him.
Yes, he refers to these people and hismself, specifically, that they were chosen by God to be saved before the creation of the world.



Paul Here refers to Himself and those with Him. You italicised the section speaking of being chosen and I bolded the Part that says "we who first trusted in Christ", that was not the Ephesians. It was the Jewish believers that first trusted in Christ.
I did italicize that part about being chosen, but you did not address the theological implications of that statement, namely, that God chose them and they did not choose Christ.

Romans 9:19-23
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory


Please show where this is speaking of salvation.
I don't understand what you're not seeing. Paul is saying that God created some people purely to be destroyed, "objects of his wrath." Here Paul purports that God does what he wants with people and their souls as a potter with the clay, specifically with reference to salvation.

By the way, the word "predestined" it means to foreordain, or decree. God chose some people before the creation of the world to be saved, and others to be "objects of wrath." I can't make any other sense out of these texts.

Levin

Levin
Nov 6th 2008, 08:45 AM
A few thoughts on your post drew:


Note: Classical Greek, the language in which Acts was written is identified as possessing this “middle voice”
First off, this was not written in Classical Greek, but in Koine (common) Greek. Classical Greek fell off the scene in around 300 BC, and while some semantic features can be traced to it, by the time of the NT the language had evolved a lot.

Now, while I would not consider myself a Greek scholar as of yet, I have a little bit of knowledge on the subject at hand (I've studied Koine Greek at an accredited institution for about 15 months now).

Here's the Greek text of the passage (I've bolded the contended words):
parrhsiasamenoi te o pauloV kai o barnabaV eipan, umin hn anagkaion prwton lalhqhnai ton logon tou qeou: epeidh apwqeisqe auton kai ouk axiouV krinete eautouV thV aiwniou zwhV, idou strefomeqa eiV ta eqnh. 47outwV gar entetaltai hmin o kurioV, teqeika se eiV fwV eqnwn tou einai se eiV swthrian ewV escatou thV ghV. 48akouonta de ta eqnh ecairon kai edoxazon ton logon tou kuriou, kai episteusan osoi hsan tetagmenoi eiV zwhn aiwnion:

The first word, apwqeisqe, appears here in middle/passive form because it is what we call a deponent verb. Deponent verbs are defined as being middle/passive in form but active in meaning. That is why it is being translated as an active verb.

The second phrase, hsan tetagmenoi, is normally rendered "were appointed." The first word,hsan, is an imperfect form of the Greek verb eimi, which means "to be." If tetagmenoi were to be translated in a middle voice, the phrase would read "as many as had appointed for themselves," which really doesn't make sense.

According to Dan Wallace (aka Mr. Greek) "The passive pluperfect periphrastic hsan tetagmenoi indicates both that the initiative belonged to someone else and that it had already been accomplished before they believed."

I'm working out of Nestle Aland's 27th ed. of the Greek NT, and Croy's grammar. I'd recommend checking out Croy or Mounce or Wallace if you're interested in basic Greek grammars (yay amazon). Actually, Croy's book is accessible online, at this link. (http://books.google.com/books?id=XS8oENRRN8cC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=perfect+middle+passive&source=bl&ots=kJ-6taeHMe&sig=wkX20o5yVzbuPyeGxbc2UJEzL78&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1)

With Regards,
Levin

9Marksfan
Nov 6th 2008, 10:09 AM
the entire passage in Acts 13 is in the middle voice

Including this part?

It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you:

OK - so who did the speaking of the word of God?


Notice Paul says to the Jews, "seeing you put it from you",
Paul says the Jews judged "themselves" unworthy of eternal life.
So, it only makes sense that the gentiles also would judge themselves.

Of course - they showed they did by believing! What's the problem?


What reason would their be for Luke to switch from the middle voice when speaking of the Jews to the passive voice when speaking of the gentiles? Wouldn't we then have a different salvation for the Jews, than the Gentiles? How can it be that the Jews were able to judge themselves unworthy of eternal life but the Gentiles were not??

So are you going to translate tetagmenoi as "agreed with" as well?!?

Butch5
Nov 7th 2008, 04:18 AM
Levin---Yes, he refers to these people and hismself, specifically, that they were chosen by God to be saved before the creation of the world.

Paul is not referring to the Ephesians, He is referring to the believing Jews, the Jews were chosen before the foundation of the world. The Ephesians were gentiles and God says they will be His people who were not His people.


Levin---I did italicize that part about being chosen, but you did not address the theological implications of that statement, namely, that God chose them and they did not choose Christ.

The Jews were the chosen ones not the gentiles


Levin---Romans 9:19-23
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

I don't understand what you're not seeing. Paul is saying that God created some people purely to be destroyed, "objects of his wrath." Here Paul purports that God does what he wants with people and their souls as a potter with the clay, specifically with reference to salvation.

By the way, the word "predestined" it means to foreordain, or decree. God chose some people before the creation of the world to be saved, and others to be "objects of wrath." I can't make any other sense out of these texts.

Levin

The passage is talking about service not salvation. God uses people as He pleases. He makes one vessel for Honor, I.E. Jacob and others to dishonor, I.E. Esau. Notice what Paul says,

Romans 9:8-13 ( KJV ) 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jacob was chosen over Esau, for what purpose? The elder shall serve the younger. God chose to bring the Messiah through Jacob and not Esau. By Jewish tradition, Esau should have gotten the blessing, however God chose Jacob. There are several places in Scripture where God chose the second born over the first. If you do a study of Jacob and Esau through the OT you will find that Esau persecuted Jacob. Notice where Paul writes of God, saying Jacob have I loved and Esau Have I hated. The first mention of God hating Esau is in Malachi, many years after Esau's death. Like I said, if you trace them through the OT you will why God makes this statement in Malachi, read the book of Obadiah, it speaks of the Edomites and how they persecuted the Israelites. There is no mention of God hating Esau in the passage quoted from Genesis, and If you read Genesis, there is no mention of God hating Esau.

Also the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction are fitted of themselves. Notice that the passage says that God endure them with much long suffering. If God had made them for destruction then how is He enduring them, they would be doing His will. He is enduring them because they are doing what they were not supposed to.


The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament

G2675. καταρτίζω katartizō; fut. katartisō, from kata (G2596), with, and artizō (n.f.), to adjust, fit, finish, from artios (G739), fit, complete. The fundamental meaning is to put a thing in its appropriate condition, to establish, set up, equip, arrange, prepare, mend. Also from artizō (n.f.): exartizō (G1822), to accomplish. (I) To refit, repair, mend that which is broken such as the nets (Matt. 4:21; Mark 1:19). Metaphorically, of a person in error, to restore, set right (Gal. 6:1). By implication and in the proper force of kata (G2596), meaning to make a perfect fit, suitable, such as one should be, deficient in no part. Of persons (Luke 6:40; 1 Cor. 1:10; 2 Cor. 13:11; Heb. 13:21; 1 Pet. 5:10); of things, e.g., to fill out, supply (1 Thess. 3:10). (II) Generally to prepare, set in order, constitute, only in the pass. and mid. (Rom. 9:22) where the perf. must be taken with the mid. sense in that the vessels of wrath, or the unsaved, fitted themselves unto destruction. They were not fitted for destruction by God. See Matt. 21:16 from Ps. 8:2. In Heb. 10:5, “a body hast thou prepared me,” as a sacrifice, see Ps. 40:7. In Heb. 11:3, the ages were created and set in order (cf. Sept.: Ps. 74:16; 89:37). Deriv.: katartisis (G2676), the act of completion, making fit; katartismos (G2677), complete furnishing, fitting; prokatartizō (G4294), to perfect or make fit beforehand, make right, equip beforehand. Syn.: sunistaō (G4921), to constitute; suniēmi (G4920), to put together; suntassō (G4929), to arrange jointly; sundeō (G4887), to bind with; deō (G1210), to bind; sunarmologeō (G4883), to fit or frame together; harmozō (G718), to adapt, fit, join together; exartizō (G1822), to accomplish, equip fully. Ant.: chōrizō (G5563), to put asunder, separate; dialuō (G1262), to dissolve utterly; luō (G3089), to loose; apotassō (G657), to renounce or disown; aporriptō (G641), to reject.

Since fitted is in the middlle voice it means the action i being performed on them and by them. It is not God who has fitted them, it is they themselves

Butch5
Nov 7th 2008, 04:30 AM
MarksFan---Including this part?

It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you:

OK - so who did the speaking of the word of God?


Paul and Barnabas. The middle voice is referring to the Jews and the gentiles.




MarksFan---Of course - they showed they did by believing! What's the problem?

If they were ordained then they had not option as to how they would respond. Yet, Paul says hte Jews chose not to believe. The gentiles on the other had "chose" to believe. It was not determined for them




MarksFan---So are you going to translate tetagmenoi as "agreed with" as well?!?


Disposed.

rrguy
Nov 7th 2008, 04:47 AM
I believe there are many mysteries that we may not totally understand.

I believe we have a free will & can choose to follow Christ. He does not forget us but we can choose to forget or separate ourselves from him.

9Marksfan
Nov 7th 2008, 10:55 AM
Paul and Barnabas. The middle voice is referring to the Jews and the gentiles.

But you said "the whole passage" - just checking on what seemed to me to be a clearly passive verb.


If they were ordained then they had no option as to how they would respond. Yet, Paul says the Jews chose not to believe.

Yes - that's what those who are not ordained do - they exercise their wills and choose not to - it's something they do quite freely!


The gentiles on the other had "chosen" to believe. It was not determined for them

But it was! Let's look at how the verse is translated by some more progressive translations:-

The Message When the non-Jewish outsiders heard this, they could hardly believe their good fortune. All who were marked out for real life put their trust in God—they honored God's Word by receiving that life.

Amplified And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior).

NLT When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

CEV This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

NCV When those who were not Jewish heard Paul say this, they were happy and gave honor to the message of the Lord. And the people who were chosen to have life forever believed the message.

It goes without saying that the more literal word-for-word translations all have the "ordained => believed" translation - but I thought that perhaps ONE of the more modern paraphrases might have backed you up - to suggest that every single bible translation, word-for-word and dynamic equivalence, literal or paraphrae, old or new, has got it completely wrong....is "reaching" - to put it mildly.........


Disposed.

Would you like to find me just one other instance where the word is used in this way in the Bible?

Butch5
Nov 9th 2008, 01:29 AM
Marksfan---But you said "the whole passage" - just checking on what seemed to me to be a clearly passive verb.

The passage is in the middle voice, that doesn't mean every single word is in the middle voice.




Marksfan---Yes - that's what those who are not ordained do - they exercise their wills and choose not to - it's something they do quite freely!

Nigel, do you seethe contradiction in that statement? Those who are not ordained, choose not to accept? According to your understanding they cannot accept, how have they chosen not to, if they cannot?




Marksfan---But it was! Let's look at how the verse is translated by some more progressive translations:-

The Message When the non-Jewish outsiders heard this, they could hardly believe their good fortune. All who were marked out for real life put their trust in God—they honored God's Word by receiving that life.

Amplified And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior).

NLT When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

CEV This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

NCV When those who were not Jewish heard Paul say this, they were happy and gave honor to the message of the Lord. And the people who were chosen to have life forever believed the message.

It goes without saying that the more literal word-for-word translations all have the "ordained => believed" translation - but I thought that perhaps ONE of the more modern paraphrases might have backed you up - to suggest that every single bible translation, word-for-word and dynamic equivalence, literal or paraphrae, old or new, has got it completely wrong....is "reaching" - to put it mildly.........


Look up the definitions of the word and see what they are.




Marksfan---Would you like to find me just one other instance where the word is used in this way in the Bible?


1 Corinthians 16:15 ( KJV ) 15I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)


1 Corinthians 16:15 ( NKJV ) 15I urge you, brethren—you know the household of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves to the ministry of the saints—


1 Corinthians 16:15 ( YLT ) 15And I entreat you, brethren, ye have known the household of Stephanas, that it is the first-fruit of Achaia, and to the ministration to the saints they did set themselves—


However, you have not answered my question, how do you explain two different salvations? The Jews were able to choose whether of not they would believe, but the gentiles were not? They were ordained.

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 04:36 AM
Romans 9:19-23
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

I don't understand what you're not seeing. Paul is saying that God created some people purely to be destroyed, "objects of his wrath." Here Paul purports that God does what he wants with people and their souls as a potter with the clay, specifically with reference to salvation.
The potter metaphor has nothing to do with the matter of individuals being "elected" to salvation or to loss.

This chapter is about national Israel and God's treatment of her:

speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel.

Paul goes through a series of illustrations of God's right to choose - Jacob and not Esau and the selection of Pharoah. These examples have nothing to do with matters of salvations - the Jacob / Esau "pre-destination" has to do with one nation (the Edomites) serving another nation (Israel). The Pharoah account is about God "pre-destining" Pharoah to resist the exodus, thereby enabling God to exhibit a great act of redemption for all the world to see.

And then we get to the potter. Who are the vessels fitted for destruction? Are they those whom God has fore-ordained for ultimate loss? No. The vessels of the destruction are the Jews. If you look ahead to Romans 11, you will see Paul repeatedly state that the Jews, or at least most of them, have been hardened so that the world might be saved.

This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 9 - how God, like the potter, hardens national Israel for the benefit of the world. It is quite a stretch to suggest that Paul has left the subject of national Israel and has injected a treatment of "individual pre-destination to heaven and to hell" in the middle of an argument that is centred on Israel.

Paul is drawing on the repeated use of the potter metaphor in the Old Testament (Isaiah and Jeremiah) where the pot always represented Israel. Paul knows his Old Testament and he is making an argument about Israel, not the predestination of individuals.

legoman
Nov 10th 2008, 01:46 PM
The potter metaphor has nothing to do with the matter of individuals being "elected" to salvation or to loss.

This chapter is about national Israel and God's treatment of her:

speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel.

Paul goes through a series of illustrations of God's right to choose - Jacob and not Esau and the selection of Pharoah. These examples have nothing to do with matters of salvations - the Jacob / Esau "pre-destination" has to do with one nation (the Edomites) serving another nation (Israel). The Pharoah account is about God "pre-destining" Pharoah to resist the exodus, thereby enabling God to exhibit a great act of redemption for all the world to see.

And then we get to the potter. Who are the vessels fitted for destruction? Are they those whom God has fore-ordained for ultimate loss? No. The vessels of the destruction are the Jews. If you look ahead to Romans 11, you will see Paul repeatedly state that the Jews, or at least most of them, have been hardened so that the world might be saved.

This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 9 - how God, like the potter, hardens national Israel for the benefit of the world. It is quite a stretch to suggest that Paul has left the subject of national Israel and has injected a treatment of "individual pre-destination to heaven and to hell" in the middle of an argument that is centred on Israel.

Paul is drawing on the repeated use of the potter metaphor in the Old Testament (Isaiah and Jeremiah) where the pot always represented Israel. Paul knows his Old Testament and he is making an argument about Israel, not the predestination of individuals.

Hi drew,

What are your thoughts on Romans 9:19 specifically:
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

The greek word here for will is boulema and means purpose or plan. Who has resisted God's plan? The implied answer is NO ONE. No one has resisted God's plan. That includes not only Israel, but everyone. Everything is going according to God's plan - including who is saved, and when.

Regarding the potter analogy - Romans 9 is talking about Israel, but it can also be applied as a more general analogy of how God works. God is not a respector of persons. Look at verse 20 specifically:

"Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'

This doesn't sound like a nation asking "Why did you make me this way?". This sounds like an individual asking.

Legoman

drew
Nov 10th 2008, 02:58 PM
What are your thoughts on Romans 9:19 specifically:
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

The greek word here for will is boulema and means purpose or plan. Who has resisted God's plan? The implied answer is NO ONE. No one has resisted God's plan. That includes not only Israel, but everyone. Everything is going according to God's plan - including who is saved, and when.
Your appear to be assuming something here - that God has a specific will in relations to all things. I agree that no one can resist God's will. But it is not a priori obvious that he wills certain people to be saved to the exclusion of others.


Regarding the potter analogy - Romans 9 is talking about Israel, but it can also be applied as a more general analogy of how God works. God is not a respector of persons. Look at verse 20 specifically:

"Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'

This doesn't sound like a nation asking "Why did you make me this way?". This sounds like an individual asking.
First, if Paul wants to talk about one issue - God's treatment of Israel - he should be able to do so without people generalizing Paul's point beyond his intent.

The context shows clearly that the vessels of destruction are the Jews. As stated, Paul is drawing on Old Testament precedent for the use of this very same metaphor in relation to the nation of Israel:

And in fact, here is one of the specific Old Testament texts. It demonstrates that, indeed, verse 20 is not about an individual but about a nation.

The Lord says:
"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men. [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=29&version=31#fen-NIV-18207b)]

14 Therefore once more I will astound these people
with wonder upon wonder;
the wisdom of the wise will perish,
the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the LORD,
who do their work in darkness and think,
"Who sees us? Who will know?" 16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
"He did not make me"?
Can the pot say of the potter,
"He knows nothing"?

Firstfruits
Nov 10th 2008, 03:08 PM
As for Choice... If I do indeed have it, I want nothing to do with it. For I have seen what I have done with it.

If I do have choice, then I freely give it away and choose not to have choice or free will. I choose that my will be non-existent and only the will of God is done and exists.

If I don't have Choice then I there is nothing I can do and it's futile anyway.

If that is what you have chosen, then have you not used your free will to do so?

Firstfruits

legoman
Nov 10th 2008, 05:32 PM
Your appear to be assuming something here - that God has a specific will in relations to all things. I agree that no one can resist God's will. But it is not a priori obvious that he wills certain people to be saved to the exclusion of others.


Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

1 Cor 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

To me, these verses are all complimentary and are all saying the same thing. God is working all things according to his purpose and will. No one can resist or do anything to change it (Romans 9:19). God has declared it all from the beginning and it will all come to pass. It shall achieve what he declared (Isa 55:11).

It seems to me it is quite obvious that God does have a specific will for all things. God is even concerned about the tiniest details. He numbers each hair in our head. A sparrow doesn't fall unless God will's it.

I believe God is operating the entire universe, right down to the last atom.

Legoman

Diolectic
Nov 10th 2008, 06:37 PM
Scripture is clear - we choose God because God has chosen us:-

Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48 NKJV

Note it DOESN'T say "and as many as believed were appointed to eternal life".He chose us because HE knew we would accept.


what you are saying is that God chose us because he knew we would choose Him. But that would effectively be that God chose us because we chose Him!Right!!!


God chooses us specifically - even though we - and the whole human race - did not deserve to be chosenThen whgy does He choose?
What are the criteria for His choice to save?
If all men are equally hell-bound, what make those who are chosen any diferent for salvation than those who are not?


but it's not arbitrarySince it isn't, we must be able to know the criteria.
What are they?


it's in love and in accordance with the counsel of His willThat is still arbitrary.
Arbitrary:
1.subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision. 2.decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute
3. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.
4. Depending on will or discretion; not governed by any fixed rules; as, an arbitrary decision; an arbitrary punishment.
5. having no external control.

Election must be according to somehting outside of God, as His law and commands.
Act 17:30B but now commands all men everywhere to repent:
The "law" of salvation is that one must obey this command in Act 17:30B the "law of faith in Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

God elects according to the foreknowledge of who will meet the requirements for salvation.
These requiremnets are faith and repentance in humility.
However, faith & repentance can not be gifts, exept for as our very breath would be a gift so would faith & repentance be.

threebigrocks
Nov 10th 2008, 07:19 PM
Christ was predestined - not us. Why would God predestine us who are born of sin, unholy and unrighteous?

Ephesians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace



All is in and through Christ, since the before the foundation of the world. We are not chosen unless we willfully accept Christ through the calling of His will. It is the will of the Father that all be saved - and we know there is only one way - through Christ. WE, man, were not chosen before the foundation of the world - Christ was.



If it is the will of the Father that all be saved only, ONLY, through His Son, according to the riches of His grace, then how can it be that God bypasses that and chooses us outside of the grace made available only through His Son? Would God usurp His own plan?


All of mankind is chosen. Some just like sin and living a life of the world more than salvation. Those who don't heed when they are called and drawn will have their hearts hardened every moment they refuse to hear.


There are 39 verses via search of the NASB which speak of a hardening of hearts. If predestination was true then these verses make no sense. They chose something other than God. If they are predestined to believe then how in the world could someone become so hardened as to be turned over to satan for the hopes they will see the light when in the presence of pure evil in action, thought and deed? If predestination were true, then why would there be hope for the one turned over if they were predestined to damnation anyhow?

threebigrocks
Nov 10th 2008, 09:53 PM
Acts 26
16'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

If we are predestined, then how can one open their own eyes and turn to receive forgiveness? Wouldn't they be sentenced to damnation if they were already in darkness? These too receive the inheritance IF they turn from darkness.

And - this is Paul speaking to King Agrippa about his conversion. If Paul can choose and turn from darkness to light and receive an inheritance and we base so much of our doctrine on him what is any different for us?

John146
Nov 10th 2008, 10:20 PM
Christ was predestined - not us. Why would God predestine us who are born of sin, unholy and unrighteous?

Ephesians 1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace



All is in and through Christ, since the before the foundation of the world. We are not chosen unless we willfully accept Christ through the calling of His will. It is the will of the Father that all be saved - and we know there is only one way - through Christ. WE, man, were not chosen before the foundation of the world - Christ was.



If it is the will of the Father that all be saved only, ONLY, through His Son, according to the riches of His grace, then how can it be that God bypasses that and chooses us outside of the grace made available only through His Son? Would God usurp His own plan?


All of mankind is chosen. Some just like sin and living a life of the world more than salvation. Those who don't heed when they are called and drawn will have their hearts hardened every moment they refuse to hear.


There are 39 verses via search of the NASB which speak of a hardening of hearts. If predestination was true then these verses make no sense. They chose something other than God. If they are predestined to believe then how in the world could someone become so hardened as to be turned over to satan for the hopes they will see the light when in the presence of pure evil in action, thought and deed? If predestination were true, then why would there be hope for the one turned over if they were predestined to damnation anyhow?Agree. Scripture just does not teach anywhere that anyone is predestined to believe. This idea that God gives the few chosen ones saving faith while withholding it from the rest is simply unbiblical. We who God foreknew were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Nowhere does it say that we were predestined or elected to believe so that we would be saved.

Someone might try to point to a verse like Acts 13:48 which says that those who were appointed to eternal life believed. But it doesn't say they were appointed to believe so that they would have eternal life. Yet that's how some read it. Those who God knew beforehand would believe were appointed to eternal life. Their names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. Cornelius and the others in his house were among those appointed to eternal life. Why? Because they believed and God knew they would.

legoman
Nov 11th 2008, 03:11 AM
Acts 26
16'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

If we are predestined, then how can one open their own eyes and turn to receive forgiveness? Wouldn't they be sentenced to damnation if they were already in darkness? These too receive the inheritance IF they turn from darkness.


You seem to be misunderstanding the implications and complexities of God's plan. Someone can be spiritually blind, have their eyes opened by God, and then be saved. And this can all be predestined.

Just because someone is currently spiritually blind, doesn't mean they aren't predestined to be saved at some future point.

Only God knows who will be saved before they die.



And - this is Paul speaking to King Agrippa about his conversion. If Paul can choose and turn from darkness to light and receive an inheritance and we base so much of our doctrine on him what is any different for us?I find it interesting that you would think Paul's conversion is a good example of free will. It is actually a terrible example of free will. Yes Paul made a choice. But was it free from any outside influence or cause? Because that is what a free will choice is - a choice that is not influenced or caused by anything else.

You are correct that no one can open their own eyes (spiritually). And the bible confirms it (1 Cor 2:14). In fact God has set everyone in disbelief so that he may mercy on all (Romans 11:32). God will open eyes if and when he chooses to do so. He must choose us and enable us, and then we can open our heart to Christ.

But back to Paul's conversion. Do you really think it was a free will choice? The Lord revealed himself with a flash of light and a booming voice. Paul was thrown to the ground trembling. Did Paul then decide freely that he should follow Christ? Not likely. It probably took about 5 seconds for him to be converted. He made the choice but it was not a free choice. It was an influenced choice - heavily influenced by the Lord plainly revealing himself.

At that point there was no option for Paul to reject Christ. It was a done deal. And to be honest why would he? If the same thing happened to anyone of us, we would have accepted Christ just as fast as Paul did.

Legoman

threebigrocks
Nov 11th 2008, 04:01 AM
You seem to be misunderstanding the implications and complexities of God's plan. Someone can be spiritually blind, have their eyes opened by God, and then be saved. And this can all be predestined.

I'm not misunderstanding, legoman. Just taking scripture for what it says, at face value. You say here that we can have our eyes opened and it can be predestined. Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? If they were predestined, why would their eyes need to be open or ever be spiritually blind?




Just because someone is currently spiritually blind, doesn't mean they aren't predestined to be saved at some future point.

Are we saved through Christ as it says in Ephesians 1 I quoted, or are we hand picked and bypass Christ? Unless we go through Christ, predestined ONLY through Him, we have nothing. And that is for all, as God wishes all to be saved. If anyone believes and has faith they will be saved. That is not predestination.


Only God knows who will be saved before they die.

That He may.


I find it interesting that you would think Paul's conversion is a good example of free will. It is actually a terrible example of free will. Yes Paul made a choice. But was it free from any outside influence or cause? Because that is what a free will choice is - a choice that is not influenced or caused by anything else.

So if nothing influenced us, how can the Spirit work in our conscience to change us and bring us to repentance? Isn't that how we are called? Sure, Paul was struck blind, but that was not the focus of why I shared that piece of scripture. Look around that legoman.


You are correct that no one can open their own eyes (spiritually). And the bible confirms it (1 Cor 2:14). In fact God has set everyone in disbelief so that he may mercy on all (Romans 11:32). God will open eyes if and when he chooses to do so. He must choose us and enable us, and then we can open our heart to Christ.

We are all chosen, legoman. We all are drawn by the Father through the Son. There is no other way. We are predestined through Christ. By no other way. We are not worthy to be called directly, we must repent. We must follow Christ. All are able to accept Him. Some don't.


But back to Paul's conversion. Do you really think it was a free will choice? The Lord revealed himself with a flash of light and a booming voice. Paul was thrown to the ground trembling. Did Paul then decide freely that he should follow Christ? Not likely. It probably took about 5 seconds for him to be converted. He made the choice but it was not a free choice. It was an influenced choice - heavily influenced by the Lord plainly revealing himself.


Like I said - the actual moment of Paul's being blinded is not the foucs of the Ephesians 1 verses. Look around it, focus on the other words of Paul's testimony.



At that point there was no option for Paul to reject Christ. It was a done deal. And to be honest why would he? If the same thing happened to anyone of us, we would have accepted Christ just as fast as Paul did.

If it weren't for Christ - Paul would just be blind and have a dirty face. There was no salvation. It was because all who believe go through Christ. Christ was predestined. All things through Christ. That is my point. Christ was the one we are predestined through, since before the foundation of the world.

legoman
Nov 11th 2008, 05:00 AM
I'm not misunderstanding, legoman. Just taking scripture for what it says, at face value. You say here that we can have our eyes opened and it can be predestined. Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? If they were predestined, why would their eyes need to be open or ever be spiritually blind?


Perhaps you should take Ephesians 1:11 and 1:5 at face value as well, since they clearly say it is us who is predestined.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

How much clearer can it be? Everything is predestined! Its all predestined according to God's plan!

It seems you see predestination as an automatic one shot "You are saved, nothing else to be done" concept. Not true. We still have to go through the process. That means at one point we were blind. Then God opened our eyes. God enabled us to believe in Christ. We accepted Christ, repent, and are saved. Each of these events is predestined according to God's plan. Each of these steps must happen because God has planned it that way.

Where is the "oxymoron"? God does it this way for a reason - so we can learn something from the process.



Are we saved through Christ as it says in Ephesians 1 I quoted, or are we hand picked and bypass Christ? Unless we go through Christ, predestined ONLY through Him, we have nothing. And that is for all, as God wishes all to be saved. If anyone believes and has faith they will be saved. That is not predestination.
Yes of course we are saved through Christ. What is this mysterious "hand picked and bypass Christ" process? Is that what you think predestination is?

All that predestination means is everything is happening as God planned it would. That includes the boring things like what you had for breakfast today and the important things like when you accepted Christ. God has an appointed time for all of these things.



So if nothing influenced us, how can the Spirit work in our conscience to change us and bring us to repentance? Isn't that how we are called? Sure, Paul was struck blind, but that was not the focus of why I shared that piece of scripture. Look around that legoman.
Not sure what your point here is. I didn't think I was focusing on Paul's blindness (spiritual or physical). And where did I say nothing influenced us?

My point was that all choices are influenced. The spirit does influence us to believe and to repent.

The specific example of Paul shows that he was heavily influenced to come to Christ. Consider he was the worst sinner known to man. And in about 5 seconds he converted to Christ. Not because he all of a sudden of his own free will decided he should. But because God showed up in his face.

Everyone who has ever been saved goes through the same process. Maybe not with as much flash as what happened to Paul, but it is similar. Some event triggers something in your heart to believe in Christ. That event is always (ultimately) caused by God enabling us to believe.



We are all chosen, legoman. We all are drawn by the Father through the Son. There is no other way. We are predestined through Christ. By no other way. We are not worthy to be called directly, we must repent. We must follow Christ. All are able to accept Him. Some don't.
What do you mean we are all chosen? Many are called, few are chosen. Who is doing the calling and the choosing here? Its not us. Its God. God calls the many. And then out of the many he chooses the few.



If it weren't for Christ - Paul would just be blind and have a dirty face. There was no salvation. It was because all who believe go through Christ. Christ was predestined. All things through Christ. That is my point. Christ was the one we are predestined through, since before the foundation of the world.Sorry you were the one who brought up Acts 26 where Paul describes how he came to Christ. I was just pointing out it was not a free will choice. It was a heavily influenced choice.

When you say "Christ was the one we are predestined through" are you saying that we are predestined to be saved? Since you used the word "predestined", you must believe we are predestined to ... something. So are we predestined to be saved?

Cause that is what I'm saying, and that is what the scriptures say.

Legoman

legoman
Nov 11th 2008, 05:04 AM
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

1 Cor 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Isaiah 46:10
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Is God not working everything according to his purpose and plan as these verse plainly state?

Legoman

threebigrocks
Nov 11th 2008, 05:09 AM
Look at it. It's all through Christ. We cannot come to the Father except by Christ. All is in and through Christ. We were predestined to salvation only through Christ. And it's for all, not a few select that God hand picks as predestination believes. Some are born to salvation and some to damnation. Not true, quite false. Salvation is available to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Who is the "us" in the Ephesians verse, legoman? Those who have made a choice to follow Christ and have heeded the Spirit, repented because they saw a need for a SAvior as a sinner, and walked a new life as a new creation in Christ? Those are the us. Believers. God doesn't pull our strings and orchestrate every move and every breathe we make. That is not a relationship which we are called to in Christ. That is an impersonable God. Impersonable beings don't have the essence of their nature to love.

threebigrocks
Nov 11th 2008, 05:20 AM
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

1 Cor 12:6
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Isaiah 46:10
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.


Is God not working everything according to his purpose and plan as these verse plainly state?

Legoman

God isn't into micromanagement.
What about unbelievers? Are they free to do as they choose? Isn't freedom in Christ something we gain when we are born again?

If God ordains our every step, then why was Israel so lost so many times? That is also in Isaiah. God warned them, told them to stop, they didn't. So He became reactive and doled out punishment for their disobedience. Ditto for the days of Noah. And God was not pleased with His decision to flood the earth. Did He predestine wrongly then?

God's purpose and plan did work out there. If you are disobedient, expect God to chastise you. If God ordains our every step, then why would He allow anyone to be disobedient?

That is where I get the notion as do many reformed that predestination says that we are either predestined to damnation or to salvation. If you sin, it must have been God predestined you to do so. Does that mean that God has predestined anyone to sin if they are in Christ?

God does work all in all. From before time began until again there is no time but eternity. But He doesn't decide if you have Chocopuffs for breakfast or toast or pancakes and we blindly follow what we don't even realize is already preordained.

The only thing preordained, predestined, is Christ. That's all. Without that, we have no access to the Father.

legoman
Nov 11th 2008, 05:22 AM
threebigrocks,

We are in 100% agreement that no one comes to the Father except through Christ. I also agree that salvation is for all, for Jesus is the savior of the world, and its God's will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9). I also agree that the "us" in Eph 1:11 is refering to believers - believers that God has enabled and predestined.

But it sounds like you don't believe the verses I posted above where it says God is operating all in all for his purpose and will.

Please explain what you think it means when it says God "worketh all in all", and "being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will".

Thanks,
Legoman

legoman
Nov 11th 2008, 05:53 AM
Ah I see you responded to my questions as I posted my last response :) Thanks.


God isn't into micromanagement.


I would disagree here. God is into the details. He knows the hairs on our head. He knows when a sparrow falls. In fact he is the cause (matthew 10:29).

But its not like the typical picture of micromanagement would suggest. God operates his universe by laws. Law of attraction. Law of gravity. Laws of thermodynamics. etc.



What about unbelievers? Are they free to do as they choose? Isn't freedom in Christ something we gain when we are born again?
Neither unbelievers or believers are free. They too are bound by laws of God and the universe.

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28103a)] 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

We are either under the law of sin and death, or the law of the spirit of life. Neither make us free. Pay attention to the words in verse 2: one law (spirit of life) makes us free from another law (sin and death), but we are still bound by law.



If God ordains our every step, then why was Israel so lost so many times? That is also in Isaiah. God warned them, told them to stop, they didn't. So He became reactive and doled out punishment for their disobedience. Ditto for the days of Noah. And God was not pleased with His decision to flood the earth. Did He predestine wrongly then?

God's purpose and plan did work out there. If you are disobedient, expect God to chastise you. If God ordains our every step, then why would He allow anyone to be disobedient?
Well first of all, we know God does ordain our every step because the scripture tells us:
Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

And we know Israel was lost because God intended for Israel to be lost. In fact he intended everyone to be disobedient so he could then show his mercy and save them all:

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%2011;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28226h)] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

And of course God did not predestine anyone wrongly. He predestined according to his plan, which is perfect, good, and completely loving. His plan does involve evil and disobedience, so that goodness can be understood and his mercy can be shown.



That is where I get the notion as do many reformed that predestination says that we are either predestined to damnation or to salvation. If you sin, it must have been God predestined you to do so. Does that mean that God has predestined anyone to sin if they are in Christ?

God does work all in all. From before time began until again there is no time but eternity. But He doesn't decide if you have Chocopuffs for breakfast or toast or pancakes and we blindly follow what we don't even realize is already preordained.

The only thing preordained, predestined, is Christ. That's all. Without that, we have no access to the Father.But if you say "God does work all in all" then, by definition, it does include the Chocopuffs and toast and pancakes. And you are correct that people blindly follow what they don't even realize is preordained. People think they are doing things of their own free will, but God has so cleverly setup the circumstances and causes, that people don't even notice them.

And you are also correct that God intended sin and evil to happen - but it was for a purpose. So we could know what goodness is. And this is also why Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, before any of us existed. He provided Jesus as the answer to sin.

What is the point of it all? Why are we here stumbling around, with all this sin, with times of sadness and happiness, times of good and evil? God is giving us experience. He is training us with our trials. He is creating us to be good. Eventually we will be. But its a process that we must endure.

Goodnight,
Legoman

Partaker of Christ
Nov 12th 2008, 12:33 AM
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Butch5
Nov 12th 2008, 12:44 AM
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What does that mean?

legoman
Nov 12th 2008, 09:59 PM
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. What does that mean?

Hi,

I believe it means the following: From the beginning, God has chosen us to be saved, through belief in the truth of Jesus.

Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God knew he would have to save us. In fact he planned it that way, which is why he provided the lamb (Jesus) before any of us ever existed.

Legoman

mikebr
Nov 14th 2008, 04:25 PM
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you have the power to believe in things that are unbelievable? In other words can a person force him/hereself to believe in things that they simply don't believe in? And if you can does it create anything that didn't exist before?

Belief is due to reality. Reality is not created because I believe.

mikebr
Nov 14th 2008, 04:29 PM
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Chosen to salvation

Through santification of the Spirit
(who does the santifying?)

and belief of the truth
(where does our faith come from?)

Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, I have been given a measure of faith.

Friend of I AM
Nov 14th 2008, 04:32 PM
Do you have the power to believe in things that are unbelievable? In other words can a person force him/hereself to believe in things that they simply don't believe in? And if you can does it create anything that didn't exist before?

Belief is due to reality. Reality is not created because I believe.

Hey Mike,

Well this is a difficult thing to ascertain. We don't really know what belief stems from. Again, we have to chalk belief up to what we think often times is our own will. The problem being is that at times it is hard to distinguish what is of our will and what is of God's will. This is why it is necessary for us to come to God during those important times in our life..and state "is it of your will."

I think of the situation with Job and Elihu. Elihu basically told Job that what he did had no effect on God's will/plan, but only effected men and himself. Thus one could say that Elihu was stating that Job and men had will unto themselves...this I guess could be thought of as free will. Regardless..this whole discussion becomes very hard to determine when one starts talking about things like reality...and what reality is to God. We don't really know these things, as we are speaking from limited not omniscient perspectives.

A man's will can be free only to the point where it doesn't effect the ultimate plan that God has. I think this distinction has been made by most in the forum already...which is why I have tended to kind of shy away from these discussions as of late. Still, I hope that everyone can come to a sense of understanding as to what faith means, and how it works in the life of a believer within this discussion. God bless all in Christian Love.

Stephen

mikebr
Nov 14th 2008, 07:18 PM
Hey Mike,

Well this is a difficult thing to ascertain. We don't really know what belief stems from. Again, we have to chalk belief up to what we think often times is our own will. The problem being is that at times it is hard to distinguish what is of our will and what is of God's will. This is why it is necessary for us to come to God during those important times in our life..and state "is it of your will."

I think of the situation with Job and Elihu. Elihu basically told Job that what he did had no effect on God's will/plan, but only effected men and himself. Thus one could say that Elihu was stating that Job and men had will unto themselves...this I guess could be thought of as free will. Regardless..this whole discussion becomes very hard to determine when one starts talking about things like reality...and what reality is to God. We don't really know these things, as we are speaking from limited not omniscient perspectives.

A man's will can be free only to the point where it doesn't effect the ultimate plan that God has. I think this distinction has been made by most in the forum already...which is why I have tended to kind of shy away from these discussions as of late. Still, I hope that everyone can come to a sense of understanding as to what faith means, and how it works in the life of a believer within this discussion. God bless all in Christian Love.

Stephen

Hello Stephen,

When my son was two he asked me who made the moon. I believe we are all born with the capacity to believe, maybe even belief itself. But then we are taught unbelief, either by people who have been taught belief or by being told that God is a certain way and we find that He's not who we were taught that He is; therefore we stop believing.

I believe that Romans 1:18ff speaks to this.

JesusPhreak27
Nov 14th 2008, 07:23 PM
This is a contreversial issue , but do you believe that God chose you before you were born and knew you were going to be saved. or do you believe that you are saved by faith, that you have faith to become saved.
in other words are we chosen by God, or do we make the decision?
tell me you opinion!!!!!:hmm:


I believe that Jesus Christ paved my path for me.....

Meaning that He had me go through 5 years of being an atheist so that I could learn the lessons God needed me to learn before bringing me back to His family.

I believe that God has a path set out for all of us and that the path He has laid out for us is exactly the one that we need to go through. My path would not work for anyone else just the same as someone elses path would not work for me.

Partaker of Christ
Nov 15th 2008, 12:06 AM
Hello Stephen,

When my son was two he asked me who made the moon. I believe we are all born with the capacity to believe, maybe even belief itself. But then we are taught unbelief, either by people who have been taught belief or by being told that God is a certain way and we find that He's not who we were taught that He is; therefore we stop believing.

I believe that Romans 1:18ff speaks to this.

Rom 1:15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

It is the gospel that is the power of God for salvation.
"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

What Paul here is saying is: that the 'wrath' of God, is already revealed. So now he wants to preach the gospel of grace through faith.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Knowing the wrath of God does not save, but 'the fear of the Lord, is the beginning of wisdom'. It prepares the heart for the good seed.

Just_Another_Guy
Nov 15th 2008, 02:30 PM
Interesting discussion. Often times we are the product of our environments...and we generally just believe what we are told. I think it takes a breaking away from the family, or the mold that we've been accustomed to within our lives...in order for us to open our minds a bit, and really get to the heart of what it is we are following, and what motivates us to continue following it. Do we follow/believe/have faith in God out of fear of his wrath? Do we follow/believe/have faith in God out of wanting to get to know his love? Do we follow God just because we are so accustomed to doing so, and we don't know anything else. Hard to say. Perhaps it may be a combination of all of these things.

Matthew