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cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:07 PM
to allow the man of sin to be revealed before every person has had a chance to hear the gospel at least once. Would God allow this to happen before the church has finished its job?

Mat 24:14


And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Sounds to me like the end is not coming until we have finished our job.

treasureman
Nov 3rd 2008, 01:18 PM
Everyone will know before the antichrist Satan comes. Your quote says it all.
God Bless,
spiritual treasureman

markdrums
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:30 PM
Everyone will know before the antichrist Satan comes. Your quote says it all.
God Bless,
spiritual treasureman


I don't know that we're supposed to interpret "the whole world" in a literal sense....

Read what Paul said in Romans, when he uses the phrase:

Rom 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=1&v=8&t=KJV#8)First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Obviuosly it hadn't been spoken of around the entire PLANET..... but in the context John intended, it was spread throughout many lands & nations, and had a specific meaning.

Just something to throw out there for thought.
;)

Joe King
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:43 PM
Isaiah 45:9
"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands'?

moonglow
Nov 3rd 2008, 03:44 PM
to allow the man of sin to be revealed before every person has had a chance to hear the gospel at least once. Would God allow this to happen before the church has finished its job?

Mat 24:14


Sounds to me like the end is not coming until we have finished our job.

The problem with this though is a new person is being born every second! Our job would never end if we took this to literally mean every human in the world.

to give you an idea how many new babies are born every second...more then one a second actually...it would be an impossible job: http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop

Babies would have to stop being born in order for us to even have a chance to keep up...otherwise the world would never end.

Since the Matthew account is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple though...the 'world' then was much smaller and this was possible.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
In all the world, ενολητηοικουμενη. Perhaps no more is meant here than the Roman empire; for it is beyond controversy that πασαντηνοικουμενην, Luke 2:1, means no more than the whole Roman empire: as a decree for taxation or enrolment from Augustus Caesar could have no influence but in the Roman dominions; but see on Luke 2:1. Tacitus informs us, Annal. l. xv., that, as early as the reign of Nero, the Christians were grown so numerous at Rome as to excite the jealousy of the government; and in other parts they were in proportion. However, we are under no necessity to restrain the phrase to the Roman empire, as, previously to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Gospel was not only preached in the lesser Asia, and Greece, and Italy, the greatest theatres of action then in the world; but was likewise propagated as far north as SCYTHIA; as far south as ETHIOPIA; as far east as PARTHIA and INDIA; and as far west as SPAIN and BRITAIN.

On this point, Bishop Newton goes on to say, That there is some probability that the Gospel was preached in the British nations by St. Simon the apostle; that there is much greater probability that it was preached here by St. Paul; and that there is an absolute certainty that it was planted here in the times of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem. See his proofs. Dissert. vol. ii. p. 235,236. edit. 1758. St. Paul himself speaks, Colossians 1:6,23, of the Gospel's being come into ALL THE WORLD, and preached TO EVERY CREATURE under heaven.

And in his Epistle to the Romans, Romans 10:18, he very elegantly applies to the lights of the Church, what the psalmist said of the lights of heaven. Their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the END of the WORLD. What but the wisdom of God could foretell this? and what but the power of God could accomplish it?

Then shall the end come.
When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.

God bless

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 05:30 PM
to allow the man of sin to be revealed before every person has had a chance to hear the gospel at least once. Would God allow this to happen before the church has finished its job?

Mat 24:14


Sounds to me like the end is not coming until we have finished our job.Considering the number of babies being born every hour and similarly the number of people who die every hour, it's impossible to get 100% coverage.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:04 PM
What does the amount of babies being born have to do with spreading the gospel. I am not talking about going and witnessing to infants. I've never tried but I am confident that I will not get to much of a response witnessing to an infant. My original post is concerning giving people at an age where they are able to repond an oportunity to hear the gospel.

cwb
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:09 PM
The problem with this though is a new person is being born every second! Our job would never end if we took this to literally mean every human in the world.

to give you an idea how many new babies are born every second...more then one a second actually...it would be an impossible job: http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop

Babies would have to stop being born in order for us to even have a chance to keep up...otherwise the world would never end.

Since the Matthew account is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple though...the 'world' then was much smaller and this was possible.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024
In all the world, ενολητηοικουμενη. Perhaps no more is meant here than the Roman empire; for it is beyond controversy that πασαντηνοικουμενην, Luke 2:1, means no more than the whole Roman empire: as a decree for taxation or enrolment from Augustus Caesar could have no influence but in the Roman dominions; but see on Luke 2:1. Tacitus informs us, Annal. l. xv., that, as early as the reign of Nero, the Christians were grown so numerous at Rome as to excite the jealousy of the government; and in other parts they were in proportion. However, we are under no necessity to restrain the phrase to the Roman empire, as, previously to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Gospel was not only preached in the lesser Asia, and Greece, and Italy, the greatest theatres of action then in the world; but was likewise propagated as far north as SCYTHIA; as far south as ETHIOPIA; as far east as PARTHIA and INDIA; and as far west as SPAIN and BRITAIN.

On this point, Bishop Newton goes on to say, That there is some probability that the Gospel was preached in the British nations by St. Simon the apostle; that there is much greater probability that it was preached here by St. Paul; and that there is an absolute certainty that it was planted here in the times of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem. See his proofs. Dissert. vol. ii. p. 235,236. edit. 1758. St. Paul himself speaks, Colossians 1:6,23, of the Gospel's being come into ALL THE WORLD, and preached TO EVERY CREATURE under heaven.

And in his Epistle to the Romans, Romans 10:18, he very elegantly applies to the lights of the Church, what the psalmist said of the lights of heaven. Their sound went into ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto the END of the WORLD. What but the wisdom of God could foretell this? and what but the power of God could accomplish it?

Then shall the end come.
When this general publication of the Gospel shall have taken place, then a period shall be put to the whole Jewish economy, by the utter destruction of their city and temple.

God bless

I have to say I strongly disagree with you that Jesus was speaking only to Jerusalem in Matthew 24:14. It is still the church's responsibity to spread the gospel. So does the preterist position say it is no longer the church's reponsibiltiy to spread the gospel because it was done before 70 AD?

Dani H
Nov 4th 2008, 12:18 AM
There is a big difference between fair and just.

God is always just.

Fair? Not so much.

RevLogos
Nov 4th 2008, 12:30 AM
It is up to God to decide when enough is enough.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 01:47 AM
What does the amount of babies being born have to do with spreading the gospel. I am not talking about going and witnessing to infants. I've never tried but I am confident that I will not get to much of a response witnessing to an infant. My original post is concerning giving people at an age where they are able to repond an oportunity to hear the gospel.You were speaking of reaching every single person on the planet, and moonglow and I were simply pointing out that it's an impossible goal to achieve, because the population is too unstable due to death and birth.

moonglow
Nov 4th 2008, 02:07 AM
What does the amount of babies being born have to do with spreading the gospel. I am not talking about going and witnessing to infants. I've never tried but I am confident that I will not get to much of a response witnessing to an infant. My original post is concerning giving people at an age where they are able to repond an oportunity to hear the gospel.

I think you missed the point we were trying to make...with the population constantly increasing SO quickly..its impossible for us to cover everyone when the reach the age they can understand it to the point that everyone has literally heard the gospel...with the constant increase of the population at such a great rate...its impossible and we would never be done. We weren't talking about witnessing to babies...sorry you misunderstood that.


I have to say I strongly disagree with you that Jesus was speaking only to Jerusalem in Matthew 24:14. It is still the church's responsibity to spread the gospel. So does the preterist position say it is no longer the church's reponsibiltiy to spread the gospel because it was done before 70 AD?

I never said we weren't to continue preaching the gospel...of course we are. I was saying every nation HAD heard it at that time in history...because of the disciples work in following Jesus' instruction...as I said the world was much smaller then and it was possible for the Message to go out to everyone and every known nation...the goal was reached BEFORE the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem. But that doesn't imply or suggest at all that we should stop by any means. At least I never heard of the partial preterist or amill view point saying such a thing. It seems obvious as long as their are lost people in this world we keep doing our job of spreading the gospel.

God bless

JesusReignsForever
Nov 4th 2008, 02:22 AM
to allow the man of sin to be revealed before every person has had a chance to hear the gospel at least once. Would God allow this to happen before the church has finished its job?

Mat 24:14


Sounds to me like the end is not coming until we have finished our job.


Yeap I agree with that.

Lamplighter
Nov 4th 2008, 02:53 AM
I don't know that we're supposed to interpret "the whole world" in a literal sense....

Read what Paul said in Romans, when he uses the phrase:

Rom 1:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=1&v=8&t=KJV#8)First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Obviuosly it hadn't been spoken of around the entire PLANET..... but in the context John intended, it was spread throughout many lands & nations, and had a specific meaning.

Just something to throw out there for thought.
;)

I agree with you.

The Greek word used for (World) in this passage of scripture is (Kosmos). It can mean World, or Universe, but it can also mean government or government affairs. Paul was writing to the Romans, so Paul could have been only addressing the faith spoken throughout the Roman government, and not the entire world. Depends on your opinion I guess?

In Romans 1:20, Paul says that a man is without excuse not to believe in the living God. So you are without excuse to deny Christ, no matter where or in what century you are born.

Gods Child
Nov 4th 2008, 03:36 AM
to allow the man of sin to be revealed before every person has had a chance to hear the gospel at least once. Would God allow this to happen before the church has finished its job?

Mat 24:14


Sounds to me like the end is not coming until we have finished our job.

I do not see that the man of sin is revealed to the world until he has been thrown into the pit.
That of course would be when he would be revealed and that would be the end.

The Church is God's army. The army will be needed all the way until the time when salvation is no longer, then we have finished our job.
As long as there is time to repent...We are still needed to do our job.

sopranette
Nov 4th 2008, 05:43 PM
You need to remember that, during the time when the Beast is rising in power and declaring himself God, the 144,000 will be going out to the farthest corners of the Earth in one last attempt to win souls for Christ. There will no longer be such a thing as a person who has not heard the gospel.

love,

Sopranette

Bladers
Nov 4th 2008, 06:31 PM
You guys are missing the most important tool available to us today to reach the WHOLE WORLD.


It is called the Television, the Gospel is being broadcast in almost every nations of the world, through many Christian Television networks that people criticize and condemn.


The same preachers and evangelist that people are cursing are the same one's that people around the world are watching and through their preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. They are the one's fulfilling the Great Commission through the Holy Spirit, why others are sitting on their couch cursing them!


How sad... :(

Dani H
Nov 4th 2008, 06:58 PM
Well, it's always easier to criticize others who dare step out in obedience and stumble along the way, than it is to get off our duffs and do a better job at it. :)

cwb
Nov 5th 2008, 06:27 PM
I think you missed the point we were trying to make...with the population constantly increasing SO quickly..its impossible for us to cover everyone when the reach the age they can understand it to the point that everyone has literally heard the gospel...with the constant increase of the population at such a great rate...its impossible and we would never be done. We weren't talking about witnessing to babies...sorry you misunderstood that.




I still am not understanding the point you and literalist Luke are trying to make about the amount of babies being born. I looked it up on the website you provided.

The world population grew by 100 million people last year.

There are 2000 million people in the world who profess to be Christians.

I am going to be very generous toward what you are saying in looking at these numbers.

Let's say only one out of every ten people who say they are Christian really is a Christian. That comes out to 200 million people.

I'll be even more generous and say that only half those who really are Christian actually care about spreading the gospel. We are now at the 100 million that the world population grew last year.

Now let's say of the real Christians who care about spreading the gospel share the gospel with only new peron in a whole month. That comes out to 12 times the growth in the population.

I am not really seeing the relevance of the growth in population here.

( I am not even metioning the fact that of the new people that are being witnessed to, some will become commited Christians who will also share the gospel with others)


;

moonglow
Nov 5th 2008, 06:42 PM
I still am not understanding the point you and literalist Luke are trying to make about the amount of babies being born. I looked it up on the website you provided.

The world population grew by 100 million people last year.

There are 2000 million people in the world who profess to be Christians.

I am going to be very generous toward what you are saying in looking at these numbers.

Let's say only one out of every ten people who say they are Christian really is a Christian. That comes out to 200 million people.

I'll be even more generous and say that only half those who really are Christian actually care about spreading the gospel. We are now at the 100 million that the world population grew last year.

Now let's say of the real Christians who care about spreading the gospel share the gospel with only new peron in a whole month. That comes out to 12 times the growth in the population.

I am not really seeing the relevance of the growth in population here.

( I am not even metioning the fact that of the new people that are being witnessed to, some will become commited Christians who will also share the gospel with others)


;

Ok I am sorry...

Let me rephrase myself and see if this helps clear things up...

you said:
Would it be fair of God?
to allow the man of sin to be revealed before every person has had a chance to hear the gospel at least once. Would God allow this to happen before the church has finished its job?

Mat 24:14
Quote:
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Sounds to me like the end is not coming until we have finished our job.

I guess I took this as literal..that you meant every single person had to be witnessed to in the world before the end will come.

Lets say that a person has to be at least 10 years old in order to fully understand the gospel message and be able to accept Christ. I am just picking this as a random age...I realize children have been saved at younger ages...but for the sake of argument, lets just say age ten.

Ok going by the world population clock lets say every second three children turn age 10...every second...I am terrible at math here but guessamating..that is 180 children every minute...times 60 minutes in an hour..1800 children every hour are old enough to understand and accept or reject Christ...

Now if you times that by 24 hours a day....well you see where I am going now? The massive amounts of people needing witnessing too and this is everyday..more numbers added day after day after day. What Luke and I were saying is its literally impossible to get the gospel message to each one before they grow old and die...or die young of disease or starvation or natural disaster...even if they all grew old ...there is no way each one is going to hear about Jesus...we simply cannot do it all and keep up with these types of numbers! And each day more children are turning age ten! By the thousands. If God will not end the world until everyone is witness too...the world will never end!

Even if all these children lived to be 500...with more and more coming of age to understand, we just can't get to them all. But the good news is those that we cannot reach, the bible tells us God puts the knowledge of Him in all of us! :)

Does that make any more sense?

God bless

moonglow
Nov 5th 2008, 06:48 PM
You guys are missing the most important tool available to us today to reach the WHOLE WORLD.


It is called the Television, the Gospel is being broadcast in almost every nations of the world, through many Christian Television networks that people criticize and condemn.


The same preachers and evangelist that people are cursing are the same one's that people around the world are watching and through their preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour. They are the one's fulfilling the Great Commission through the Holy Spirit, why others are sitting on their couch cursing them!


How sad... :(

The reason people don't like TV preacher is for another topic...

But I want to address what you brought up about the use of TV in reaching people...most that live in third world countries do NOT have TV's...let alone electricity....TV is nonexistent in most parts of the world and those that do have them are state controlled. China and Iraq and Koren don't let these preacher on...besides they don't speak English! They couldn't understand them if they did allow them on. But in these countries, Christianity is illegal...

I know what they say on those show...about all those they are reaching...but I kind of wonder about that...China for instance got Google to block certain websites...including Christian websites...that is how controlling they are...there people can get on the net but cannot access this board..let alone even listen on line to any of these preacher (if they could understand english that is)

God bless