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Jamey
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:36 PM
"all you need is to say these words after me......"
I have heard that over and over again in churches. But is it biblical.
Jesus said in Mark 16:16 that
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned

Why do some stop at the believeth part? What does believeth mean in the first place? I believeth there was a buddah but am not a buddahist.
I believeth there was a mohammad but I am not a muslim.

Anyways, I haven't found the sinners prayer in the bible. Can someone enlighten me.

your brother in Christ,
J

Back2Front
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:52 PM
The trouble is that people are usually fooled into presumption that is the counter to true humility. As a result, I fear many are actually lost and are deceived into "believing" they are not.

The issue is the presumption to have the ability to judge true faith and true belief in ones self then in others.

We both probably know that none is worthy of such a task, yet only one is. That one being the Crucified Christ.

The best we can do is through the power of the Holy Spirit attempt to emulate the life and example of the Christ. In that is where we find true forgiveness and kindness for our neighbor, and true Godly humility for ourselves.

Hopefully this helps and hopefully it opens your eyes to all of those masses who are truly deceived. Moreover hopefully this is where you can spread the word and try and help and find that which is lost.

So to sum it all up, nobody has a belief or faith measuring stick they can use on anybody including themselves. And let no man deceive you into believing your belief or theirs is sufficient in they eyes of God.

;)

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:56 PM
"all you need is to say these words after me......"
I have heard that over and over again in churches. But is it biblical.
Jesus said in Mark 16:16 that
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned

Why do some stop at the believeth part? What does believeth mean in the first place? I believeth there was a buddah but am not a buddahist.
I believeth there was a mohammad but I am not a muslim.

Anyways, I haven't found the sinners prayer in the bible. Can someone enlighten me.

your brother in Christ,
JSo what's your point? I mean, if you want to talk about technicalities, I see where you're coming from, but what do you want these preachers who say this every Sunday to do instead?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 3rd 2008, 06:57 PM
The trouble is that people are usually fooled into presumption that is the counter to true humility. As a result, I fear many are actually lost and are deceived into "believing" they are not.

The issue is the presumption to have the ability to judge true faith and true belief in ones self then in others.

We both probably know that none is worthy of such a task, yet only one is. That one being the Crucified Christ.

The best we can do is through the power of the Holy Spirit attempt to emulate the life and example of the Christ. In that is where we find true forgiveness and kindness for our neighbor, and true Godly humility for ourselves.

Hopefully this helps and hopefully it opens your eyes to all of those masses who are truly deceived. Moreover hopefully this is where you can spread the word and try and help and find that which is lost.

So to sum it all up, nobody has a belief or faith measuring stick they can use on anybody including themselves. And let no man deceive you into believing your belief or theirs is sufficient in they eyes of God.

;)So then, what is the basis for us to get into heaven?

Back2Front
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:24 PM
So then, what is the basis for us to get into heaven?

That is a question you have to work out with God. When doing so though, I advise to look for signs of fear and trembling. But I'm just speaking from my personal experience there.

Emanate
Nov 3rd 2008, 07:25 PM
So what's your point? I mean, if you want to talk about technicalities, I see where you're coming from, but what do you want these preachers who say this every Sunday to do instead?


Refresh my memory. How many people does it mention being saved in the NT on Sunday? I seem to recall that it was believers, not unbelievers, who met on the first day.

Having said that, would not Christianity be more of a light if we spent more time at gatherings to make disciples than preaching to the Choir and a few scattered guests? It seems to me that if more disciples were made then we would have no need for the "sinner's prayer."

Jamey
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:35 PM
I wasn't making a point. I was asking a question. And I thought our meeting on the first day of the week was for believers.
What do I expect a "preacher" to say? How about something that edifies? How about something that helps discilple or tools we as believers can use to disciple. Why is our service on the first day of the week used to preach to the unsaved?
Oh I forgot, alot of times we witness by saying "come to my church and hear our preacher, he has a good message". I guess thats why we have the sinner's prayer, makes it easier on us laymen.

Again, where is it in scripture that the sinner's prayer saves?

Jamey
Nov 3rd 2008, 09:37 PM
Sorry Emanate,
didn't see your post. I think we are kinda asking the same questions. Probably need a new thread on discipleship.

holyrokker
Nov 4th 2008, 12:19 AM
The "sinners prayer" is not in the Bible, is unbiblical and does immense harm to the gospel by giving sinners a false hope.

minnesotaice
Nov 4th 2008, 12:33 AM
Not only is it not in the bible, but many churches send people out into the streets saying the Sinners Prayer with people, walking away, and then saying how many people were brought into the kingdom.

JesusMySavior
Nov 4th 2008, 12:36 AM
It's all in what the intentions are.

If you believe that by saying some magical prayer you will get into heaven, you are probably on the wrong path.

Christ saves those who are broken before Him and want Him to change them. It all comes down to honesty and a commitment, not just a prayer.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 01:21 AM
That is a question you have to work out with God. When doing so though, I advise to look for signs of fear and trembling. But I'm just speaking from my personal experience there.I would think the Bible would be a more reliable source of information than personal experience.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 01:25 AM
Refresh my memory. How many people does it mention being saved in the NT on Sunday?It doesn't say what day anybody was saved, so the question is moot.
I seem to recall that it was believers, not unbelievers, who met on the first day.Irrelevant. The Gospel is preached in most (evangelical) Churches today on Sunday.
Having said that, would not Christianity be more of a light if we spent more time at gatherings to make disciples than preaching to the Choir and a few scattered guests?Considering that we're discussing the "Sinner's Prayer", I would say that the choir and "a few scattered guests" are not the primary audience in view here.
It seems to me that if more disciples were made then we would have no need for the "sinner's prayer."So we are still at my question, which you have still not answered. What would you like these preachers to do instead, regardless of what day they share the Gospel?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 01:31 AM
I wasn't making a point. I was asking a question. And I thought our meeting on the first day of the week was for believers.
What do I expect a "preacher" to say? How about something that edifies? How about something that helps discilple or tools we as believers can use to disciple. Why is our service on the first day of the week used to preach to the unsaved?In my church,we make a regular practice of bringing unsaved people to church to visit. We bring family, co-workers, neighbors, anybody we can get to come, we do. So we usually have at least one unsaved person in the congregation. Do you seriously expect our preacher to ignore that person who is currently on the road to hell and not try to get them on the road to heaven? And if they do believe and get saved, does that not "edify" the believers present? What on earth is the church for if not for getting the lost saved?
Oh I forgot, alot of times we witness by saying "come to my church and hear our preacher, he has a good message". I guess thats why we have the sinner's prayer, makes it easier on us laymen.Oh, so even though it often results in somebody being saved, it's a bad idea? Get real.
Again, where is it in scripture that the sinner's prayer saves?Where is it in Scriptures that it doesn't save?

Honestly, I can see your point - I recognize that there is nothing in the Bible that says you have to get on your knees and "pray this prayer and you too can be saved". There is much more to it, including a life of exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit.

My problem with this thread is that you offer no alternative. You're simply saying we need to stop doing this, but twice now I've asked what should we do instead, and unless there's a post below that I haven't gotten to yet, nobody has answered that question.

It is inappropriate to suggest that we stop doing something like this without suggesting an alternative approach.

So now, for the third time in this thread, what should we do instead?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 01:36 AM
The "sinners prayer" is not in the Bible, is unbiblical and does immense harm to the gospel by giving sinners a false hope.Once again, for the fourth time now in this thread, what should we do instead? http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/litluke/ToeTap.gif
Not only is it not in the bible, but many churches send people out into the streets saying the Sinners Prayer with people, walking away, and then saying how many people were brought into the kingdom.Now this is a point that I can go along with. I agree completely that discipleship training after the salvation experience is essential. Somebody who lives their life as if nothing ever happened was indeed possibly never saved. So it's essential that they be "discipled" to "work out their salvation with fear and trembling".

immortality
Nov 4th 2008, 02:16 AM
fast forward to the 1:00 minute mark:

Is the Gospel Today all Wrong? (Paul Washer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoWSZ7IuQU4

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 03:04 AM
fast forward to the 1:00 minute mark:

Is the Gospel Today all Wrong? (Paul Washer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoWSZ7IuQU4I agree with everything he said. :yes: So how do we effectively present the Gospel to bring lost people to Christ?

minnesotaice
Nov 4th 2008, 12:21 PM
Luke,

I don't have all the answers but I think a preacher should preach the Word--all of it. I used to attend a church where the pastor would go book by book and verse by verse. We would study the root words, the context and the meanings.

I understand that sometimes unbelievers attend services but the Holy Spirit (if he is ready to draw that person) can work through meaty scripture too.

I think the problem is that so many people have been made to believe that the sinner's prayer is like an insurance policy that they need to say to save them from hell. It is not biblical. It gives people false hope that they are done and some will even go do whatever they want to after saying it. I wonder if believers in other countries say the sinners prayer?

Emanate
Nov 4th 2008, 04:57 PM
So we are still at my question, which you have still not answered. What would you like these preachers to do instead, regardless of what day they share the Gospel?


Preachers were never to lead churches. Teachers and Elders are to "lead" churches. In other words; Pastors should "shepherd". If the emphasis in church were to make disciples and teach then there would be alot more preachers who would not rely on getting their loved ones to church so they might be saved.

So my answer is: When the body is congregated we should teach.

ServantofTruth
Nov 4th 2008, 05:11 PM
Afew weeks ago i was feeling awful because i was baptised as a baby and then confirmed, in the Anglican denomination. On a topic about baby baptism, the believers prayer was mentioned by a person i respect on this site (a moderator). They made an excellent point - infant baptism is probably not biblical due to the need to repeat - but niether is just reciting the believers/ sinners prayer.

In the weeks following i have visited many different churches and been welcomed at all and taken communion with their acceptance.

Also my 'work load' has increased greatly connected with christianity/ churches. Visiting and inviting the elderly to my house. Giving more lifts to church. Encouraging, teaching etc.

I believe when we find faith, baptism and finding a church are important and praying the sinners/ believers prayer or similar - i haven't always felt this way.

But more important - are the needs of others, than my selfish needs. If a change has taken place in my heart and mind then i will need to respond daily to the needs of others. The sick, the lonely, the widows, the poor. Also take the gospel to the lost and feed the new in faith.

My point is, i personally have wasted too much time reading the bible and studying the Word and feeling good at how much i have come to know. God is now telling me to apply it. The Spirit within is showing me, there was always need all around me - i was just too blind to see it.

Repent and be baptised. Yes. Then start putting others first and worry less about how different christians see finite details. Take every resource that God has given you, and give it in his service to others. Money, possessions, time, mental and physical energy. You name it - give it!

If you say a prayer from your heart - it's biblical - it has a love for God and for other people and is Spirit led. SofTy. :pray:

graceforme
Nov 5th 2008, 09:13 PM
Not only is it not in the bible, but many churches send people out into the streets saying the Sinners Prayer with people, walking away, and then saying how many people were brought into the kingdom.


You are so right. People are fooled into thinking that if they simply "repeat these words after me", they are saved. There is nowhere in Scripture that tells us that salvation is received by simply repeating words after someone.

I once read a story about a man who, having a spiritual struggle, and questioning his own salvation, went to his pastor for counseling. After expressing his concern to the pastor, the pastor said to him, "Of course you're saved! I led you in the prayer myself!" And unfortunately, that's the mindset of many churches today.

Isn't it a shame that man has turned such a beautiful experience into a "ritual" that is some instances, has no real meaning? And equally sad is the fact that to some churches, it's all about numbers instead of souls.

rrguy
Nov 7th 2008, 05:50 AM
Sinners prayer is not Biblical & what should we do instead?

Ah the Lord's Prayer?

Simply being a good example can do more good than given credit for. I have seen more examples of people who try to witness & cause more harm than good.

I don't go to Church to evangelize. Like mentioned most people there already believe.

I go to Church to become a better Christian & example of what a Christian should be!
I go to
Worship God!
To Learn about God.
To repent of my Sins
To sing & praise God.
To receive Jesus Christ.
Leave with something to make me a better Christian.
One day may I become someone who can spread the Good News better than BS?

rrguy
Nov 7th 2008, 05:54 AM
You are so right. People are fooled into thinking that if they simply "repeat these words after me", they are saved. There is nowhere in Scripture that tells us that salvation is received by simply repeating words after someone.

I once read a story about a man who, having a spiritual struggle, and questioning his own salvation, went to his pastor for counseling. After expressing his concern to the pastor, the pastor said to him, "Of course you're saved! I led you in the prayer myself!" And unfortunately, that's the mindset of many churches today.

Isn't it a shame that man has turned such a beautiful experience into a "ritual" that is some instances, has no real meaning? And equally sad is the fact that to some churches, it's all about numbers instead of souls.


I agree, was also taught, Teachers/ Pastors are held to a higher standard & one day will have allot of explaining to do.

Debra R
Nov 9th 2008, 02:04 AM
sinners prayer biblical?




Lets look at these verses........

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Verse 9 says, confess with your mouth. Here in verse 10..... For with the heart one believes unto righteousness......and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Verse 13 says, "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Then there is repentance....Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

So we are to repent, which would be to recognize we are a sinner, we have sinned against a Holy God, ask for forgiveness of our sinfulness. Turn from our sin. Believe in the Lord Jesus. Ask for salvation that is freely given. So confess with our mouth all these things. Speak aloud as in prayer to God. And He will hear. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. So whichever you say, Jesus come into my heart...Jesus save me... He will do, He will save you for He has promised.


Blessings :):hug:

looking4jesus
Nov 10th 2008, 06:02 PM
Lets look at these verses........

Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Verse 9 says, confess with your mouth. Here in verse 10..... For with the heart one believes unto righteousness......and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Verse 13 says, "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Then there is repentance....Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

So we are to repent, which would be to recognize we are a sinner, we have sinned against a Holy God, ask for forgiveness of our sinfulness. Turn from our sin. Believe in the Lord Jesus. Ask for salvation that is freely given. So confess with our mouth all these things. Speak aloud as in prayer to God. And He will hear. For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. So whichever you say, Jesus come into my heart...Jesus save me... He will do, He will save you for He has promised.


Blessings :):hug:

Amen Debra you nailed it with this post. with all respect I wonder why some folks here just like to argue about such nonsense.
Even if a person is the dullest bulb in the lamp they certainly know if they are a real Christian that jusy saying a bunch of words does nothing. They certainly know it is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring a sinner to Jesus Christ through conviction of their sins and then through repenting of your sins and then accepting Jesus Christ as your savoir. then the words work perfectly because the Holy Spirit has prepared the ground first.
I think everyone knows this and I wonder why people just like to argue here .. We all know it is not a bunch of magic words to be said so most of this thread is really moot IMO.
God Bless
Randy

Emanate
Nov 10th 2008, 08:29 PM
I go to Church to become a better Christian & example of what a Christian should be!
I go to
Worship God!
To Learn about God.
To repent of my Sins
To sing & praise God.
To receive Jesus Christ.
Leave with something to make me a better Christian.


This is a task we have given "going to Church" which should have never been placed on the Church.