PDA

View Full Version : Insightful...



Prosperity
Nov 4th 2008, 02:53 AM
The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.’

‘During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage.

The full article is here (http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2008/11/03/the-life-cycle-of-nation/)

markedward
Nov 4th 2008, 03:43 AM
The person saying what you quoted seems to either be referring only to democracies, or to just the US and the UK, or is confused about some ancient kingdoms... Or he's just very selective on what he means by "the world's greatest civilizations"... Or maybe he's averaging everything out? From the empires and kingdoms that lasted over 500 years and the ones that lasted less than 10?

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 05:04 AM
The person saying what you quoted seems to either be referring only to democracies, or to just the US and the UK, or is confused about some ancient kingdoms... Or he's just very selective on what he means by "the world's greatest civilizations"... Or maybe he's averaging everything out? From the empires and kingdoms that lasted over 500 years and the ones that lasted less than 10?I noticed that as well. Rome, in its various forms, lasted for over 1000 years, and the Islamic Caliphate lasted almost 1400 years.

Seemed like the guy was mainly just making a case for gun rights. Which I can't disagree with him on, but the less than accurate research kind of exposes it a little.

I would have to agree with him, although maybe with a slightly different emphasis. Good post, however.

Prosperity
Nov 4th 2008, 05:24 AM
He did say average age of democracies, but it isn't the numbers that attracted me as much as the process.

Here is a larger excerpt:

"Consider this:

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

‘A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.’

‘A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.’

‘From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.’

‘The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.’

‘During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage."

Lamplighter
Nov 4th 2008, 05:46 AM
The USA is not a Democracy. The USA is a Republic with a constitutional law.

Literalist-Luke
Nov 4th 2008, 10:24 AM
Well, let's cut them a little slack on the technicalities.

markedward
Nov 4th 2008, 01:41 PM
The average age may be 200 years, but when the extremes are 1000-1500 years and 10-50 years, you're going to get some widely varying lengths of rule.

And claiming that "democracies are not a permanent form of government" as evidence for the US's downfall is a little dishonest - all governments are non-permanent. It's not just democracies that fall apart, empires do, monarchies do, communism does, etc. Every government is "temporary in nature", not just democracies.

thepenitent
Nov 4th 2008, 05:39 PM
I noticed that as well. Rome, in its various forms, lasted for over 1000 years, and the Islamic Caliphate lasted almost 1400 years.

Seemed like the guy was mainly just making a case for gun rights. Which I can't disagree with him on, but the less than accurate research kind of exposes it a little.

I would have to agree with him, although maybe with a slightly different emphasis. Good post, however.

What year do you contend the Islamic Caliphate began? 1400 years seems to be overstating it a bit.

timmyb
Nov 4th 2008, 06:08 PM
The reality is that every civilization has always ended in drunken orgies...

the length can vary... The Roman Empire didn't enjoy the Pax Romana until they were practically a dictatiorship and that lasted for 200 years... that was the best time to be a Roman...

We in the USA have enjoyed that to some extent, but as a democracy, we have the oldest existing system of government that the world has ever seen... and governments have always drifted toward getting more liberal as they keep going...

when we were founded abortion was not even thought of and considered especially heinous, but in 1973 the Supreme Court interpreted the constitution to the point where abortion was allowed...

so, prosperity's sequence kind of works when you look at a democracy... it happened with Rome and Athens

threebigrocks
Nov 4th 2008, 06:24 PM
it isn't the numbers that attracted me as much as the process.


1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage."


1 Samuel 8
1And it came about when Samuel was old that he appointed his sons judges over Israel. 2Now the name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judging in Beersheba.
3His sons, however, did not walk in his ways, but turned aside after dishonest gain and took bribes and perverted justice.
4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;
5and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations."
6But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us " And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
7The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.
8"Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day--in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also.
9"Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the procedure of the king who will reign over them."



And a bit further down in this chapter:



19Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but there shall be a king over us,
20that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."
21Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the LORD'S hearing.
22The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to their voice and appoint them a king." So Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Go every man to his city."


The people set man over them to rule and tossed aside the true King. Man will always fail. We were not designed, as a people of faith, to be ruled over by men but by God. With these scriptures it is true than men will look to government rather than to God for their needs to be met.

If you look at the progression Prosperity shared - it is also a pattern in scripture. Just looking at things in a general perspective regardless of type of government kingdoms have risen and fallen. They always will until all are put under His feet.

Yet, we have government. It's not going anywhere. All government is put in place and rulers sit in leadership over them by whom God puts there. We need to respect and honor it, and remember who it is we serve with our heart.

Kudo Shinichi
Nov 5th 2008, 03:54 AM
I learn history and :agree: with it... too much corruption cause downfall.



The reality is that every civilization has always ended in drunken orgies...

the length can vary... The Roman Empire didn't enjoy the Pax Romana until they were practically a dictatiorship and that lasted for 200 years... that was the best time to be a Roman...

We in the USA have enjoyed that to some extent, but as a democracy, we have the oldest existing system of government that the world has ever seen... and governments have always drifted toward getting more liberal as they keep going...

when we were founded abortion was not even thought of and considered especially heinous, but in 1973 the Supreme Court interpreted the constitution to the point where abortion was allowed...

so, prosperity's sequence kind of works when you look at a democracy... it happened with Rome and Athens

timmyb
Nov 5th 2008, 06:13 PM
Shinichi are you agreeing with me?... i'm kinda confused here...